Episode 747 | Evolving SaaS Customer Success Over 7 Years (with Jane Portman)
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Welcome back to Startups for the Rest of Us. I'm Rob Walling, and in this episode, I speak with Jane Portman, the co-founder of UserList, about how they've evolved their SaaS customer success process over the past seven years of running their mostly bootstrap company. In this episode, we cover the four stages that their customer success process has traveled as it's evolved over this time.

Before we dive into the conversation, I wanted to let you know about an effort that the team at TinySeed and I have been working on here in late 2024. It's premium coaching and community for SaaS founders doing 1 million ARR and up.

Right now we have a teaser page up at sasinstitute.com. If you are a founder who is at or in the neighborhood of 1 million ARR, enter your email there and we will be reaching out with more information. This is going to be an elite and exclusive community, application only, hand chosen. It's not intended to be

an extremely large group of people, but it's intended to get those that are at that point where YouTube videos and podcasts and even books are less and less helpful because you need more resources.

one-on-one focus, and you want to be matched in a mastermind with other ambitious, like-minded founders, and you want to receive direct advice from hand-picked mentors, and who better to do that than TinySeed? This is separate from our accelerator, right? Our accelerator is where we invest in early-stage startups that are doing, what, between, you know, 1 and 2K MRR on the low end and maybe 40K, 50K on the high end,

This is a high-end and highly curated premium coaching offering for those that are further along, basically doing seven or eight figures in ARR. So if you're interested, sasinstitute.com. And with that, let's dive into my conversation with Jane Portman. Jane Portman, welcome back to Startups for the Rest of Us. Super thrilled, super thrilled. It's been like five years, right?

It has. In fact, November 19th, 2019, episode 471, fighting to gain traction in a crowded space with Jane Portman. Still fighting. Still fighting in a crowded space. The fight never ends, Jane. Let's just be real. So for folks who aren't aware, userlist.com, you're seven years into building that business with your co-founder, Benedict R.

who many will know you and he from Microcomps. The H1 is email marketing automation for SaaS growth. UserList is more than just an email marketing platform. We're your partner in successful implementation. You get proven SaaS frameworks, one-on-one onboarding, and a dedicated support engineer so you can focus on hitting your growth goals. So tell us, Jane Portman, where does UserList stand today? Give us an idea of how big the business is.

Long story short, we're a team of six all over the world and roughly profitable. Roughly profitable. It's just fine. You are a tiny seed company. You were in batch two. Is that right? 2020? Yeah. Spring 2020. Specifically March 2020, which was very bright experience. Hey, everybody. Let's meet up for an in-person. Ah, well, we'll do an in-person in six months.

That was basically that year. That was tough for everyone. Too soon, I won't drag everyone's memories back to COVID. But today, I wanted to have you on so we could talk about how you and your team have evolved your customer success practices over the last seven years. And before I hit record, you and I walked through and put together an outline of the four stages of

that you've traveled. And I really like this framework of thinking about getting something out that's good enough. I actually talked about this in an episode just a couple weeks ago. It's first making it work,

Then you make it right. And then you make it fast. And I feel like over the last seven years, your four stages have made it work, have made it right, and have made it fast. So talk us through, before we dive into stage one, which I love that you said, it's young and naive. That's what we're going to call it. Just talk about how customer success works for you in the business. Like what's involved in customer success for you trying to get people onboarded into your

very powerful product because this is a conversation I have, you know, when obviously I ran drip, which is a similar, you know, a similar type of company, very complicated. I would say it's powerful. Drip is powerful, very complicated. And, and folks who run Ruben and I've had this conversation, like it's electronic signature. Ruben's like people come in, there's a button to upload a doc.

You drag a signature field there, you're onboarded. And I was always, right? Or like Derek with Savvy Cow, he's like, you create a link, you send the link, people book the link. I know there's more to it than that, but realistically, there are different gradients of complexity with products and not all customer success approaches work for each of them. And so you can be naive if you're going to build a really complicated slash powerful product and think that, oh, everyone's just going to self-serve and get on board, right? So with that preamble, talk us through user list and how that journey has been for you from a high level. Yeah.

If we knew what it takes for people to integrate and get started, if I knew as much as I know now, we probably just would not start, would not have started so many years ago because it's insane. Somewhere in the middle, we had a consult with Hiten Shah and he said, I would not touch a product like this with a 10 foot pole because it's incredible, incredible friction in the start. Like it's just insane. I'm

I'm not sure, it might be even easier for Drip because you can just import your list. UserList provides SaaS email marketing automation, which is three times more complex than any other complex automation because you need to continuously update the information about your users.

real time through the API integration. And there is no way around it because the users, they come, they go, they change plans, they do something inside their product and you send information about that into userless. So we then can use that data to integrate

build segments and you can build segments workflows and do all that jazz that you came there to do and then you need to come in and think about what you're going to be sending and write your campaigns and set them up there is a whole second layer to this and I think when we were just starting out we thought that some templates are going to cut it for the creative part and the data part we just I don't know we just didn't think about how much work it is

which now we know that in order to successfully integrate, people don't just need to push some events and some properties inside user list, they need a tracking plan first.

So that the marketer doesn't have to go back to their engineers every month asking for new things. It needs to be somewhat wholesome, you know, to move forward in the ideal world again. Yeah, there's a lot of steps. The integration, segmentation, creative part, setting everything up, and then running day-to-day is another thing that they probably need to less extent.

And that's a ton of upfront friction, as he said. And so you have to be. And then it's like, well, so then you need to be able to charge a ton of money so that you can spend all this time to get people onboarded and your retention is going to be high. But the problem is, is you are one of, if I were to guess, 5%.

500 different email products one could use. Now, not directly aimed at SaaS and has the functionality you do, but people start comparing, they compare you to MailChimp, right? Or Drip or ConvertKit. And they're like, well, why are you four times the price of MailChimp? And it's like, well, because we have all this stuff, right? And so it's this constant like,

push and pull of trying to convince people of how different and how powerful you actually are to justify any type of price discrepancy, but also not having infinite pricing power because there are so many options that people can kind of hack and get 50, 70, 80% of the way there. And they can justify it to themselves. They're like, well, I'm not going to pay $300 a month when I can pay like 40 to MailChimp. But it's like, ah, but it's not going to say, you know what I mean? So do you find that this, can you tell I'm speaking out of trauma? Yeah.

Because I had these conversations over and over. Well, that's verbatim. Like, I basically wake up with this. I'm like, how do we niche down? Like, where is that...

Where's that inflection point where we finally crack this miracle puzzle of where's that, you know, key of niching down? Because niching down, as far as I see the market at the moment, is the only way to move forward. It's insane how folks that are competitors getting like billion dollar funding moving forward and they're just doing some insane things and that's,

slightly depressing for a team of six. There is another angle to this industry is that when 20 years email automation came out, it was Infusionsoft, AWeber, expensive. You would use a consultant for it for a reason and you would pay much for a reason. These days, you can buy a whole range of pricing. You can buy a very cheap tool, but you still need to know what to do with it

And the question is, do we just leave people alone or do we really teach them to do this? And this is like a very, very interesting niche because there is no university degree for email automation. So it's not precisely marketing and not precisely engineering. It's in the mix. Needs a technical mindset, but also needs marketing brains behind it.

Yeah, that makes it a double whammy. So let's dive into this. We have these four stages that you yourself, your company has traveled on this customer success journey. You dubbed stage one, I hinted at it earlier, young and naive. Talk us through what that stage looked like.

So what we did, we wrote a bunch of email templates. We baked them into the product so it was easy to use. And then we also, because I'm a designer, I can design well, I designed a bunch of printable worksheets that people could fill out, print out, fill out and enjoy themselves. So what we did, we distributed those around throughout the channels, throughout the website. And we were kind of said that, yeah, look how much we're doing. We're awesome.

We really thought so. And you're done. That was it. That's the end. It's just one stage. I was kidding. So everyone took those and filled them out and used them 100%, right? Yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah, that's what happened. I guess we just didn't bother that much because there were other fish to fry at the moment. We were onboarding folks mostly...

I guess, at those stages. And we're just somehow stumbling forward, raising angel rounds, doing other things. So we'll, yeah, just move forward. Yep. And here's the way I think about this. There's an old book by Jeffrey Moore called Crossing the Chasm. And I believe it came out in like the early 90s, maybe. And

The book was more written for like large scale adoption of, think of like Palm Pilots. Anyways, there's five key segments that Jeffrey Moore broke this down into where you have, these are groups of customers. There's the innovators who will use a product and they just love toying around with stuff and they're willing to put up with a lot of pain and do a lot of work.

because they're curious and because it might provide value for them. So innovators, then there's early adopters, early majority, late majority, and the laggards. And I think what you've touched on, because I've experienced this as well, is that your innovators and maybe some early adopters were fine with the young and naive face, that they were cool with worksheets and templates, but those segments are very small. And if you see this graph, obviously it's, you know, you can Google it if you're listening to this episode. It's like a bell curve.

And the innovators and early adopters are just a tiny, like tiny, just not that many people. The mass, you know, the masses are in that early majority and late majority. And so as you find that, hey, a bunch of people aren't converting, you entered stage two, which we've called hire someone. That's a really good name. So it's really descriptive. What do you mean hire someone? Who'd you hire? How did it work out? Enter 2021, I think. Yeah.

End of 2021, we just raised our second round, a little bit of money from Angels.

We hired developers. We were like, we can do more. And we identified that there is this area of proactive customer success that we can tackle. And so we sat on a journey to hire such a proactive person that could be, you know, Prince Charming, talk to people, do demos, and just overall communicate a bunch. And I think we circled through three candidates that didn't work out.

I'm not going to go in detail, but like particularly exciting things, like one of them completely lacked empathy. Someone lacked tact about giving advice to people. And like, we are not...

I'm not going to go in there. Anyways, it's interesting how you... Did you hire them and hired them? They started and then you had to fire them? It was like a trial training period. But yeah, they were being onboarded when we learned that. And it's interesting where we, I think our hiring process has improved since then. But also it was not like we had a board and all that jazz. It's not like we hired strangers.

So, and then Michael Christofidis of PGMaster, our friend, he was one of the early applicants for the job. And we were like, no, Michael, you're too qualified. No, you're not like coming in.

And then I had a consultation with him and together we figured out that what we first thought should be proactive support is actually about being helpful when they have that momentum to get started during the early days. So we actually needed just plain support, just support. And that was the beginning of 2022 when we put...

a smart person, engineer, Michael, in the support inbox. And that just changed our lives first because everybody should delegate support even though there is not much. It really frees up the hands. And second, it just gave us a whole next level of customer investigations and all these things. There is a bunch of troubleshooting that happens in email.

automation. So he was taking this off Benedict's shoulders and that was really tangible. So that was nice. And that worked for a while.

So you went to hire a customer, a CSM, we call them a customer support manager, which is an individual contributor who is going to be, frankly, a little bit reactive, but mostly proactive, right? And after these failed attempts, you just said, let's just hire an engineer who can handle the support inbox. Is that the summary of it? And it worked. It did.

It's not like the first role means the second role, but while we were trying to fill out the first, we learned that we actually need just someone really smart on support. And there is probably there is still space for, you know, going through accounts and reaching out to customers and things like that. But it's really secondary compared to being there for onboarding. So that's the difference is some people, when you say customer success, they're

That is a lot of different things. There's actually a lot of roles within that, right? There is onboarding. Onboarding is only one part of that. Once people are a customer, there's retention, right? There's even instrumenting and reporting and doing analytics on onboarding and the amount of people who are getting onboarded. There's a lot more to it than just onboarding.

Onboarding. I think there's a drinking game. I think we have six shots because I've said the word onboarding now six times. So it sounds like as you look at customer success as a whole, you realize, well, maybe we don't need to cover all of the bases. And we should really more focus on getting people connected, getting the APIs connected and getting that early stage done such that they stick around. Am I understanding that right? Yeah.

That's correct. And my personal, well, that's because I was kind of supervising this, but my biggest discovery as a person was that I was wrong about the skill set of such person. It's way less about being charming than

Michael is super charming, by the way, but it's less about being charming and like great and camera and whatever, not, but way more about technical investigation skills. And that is related to our product and our niche. So maybe different for your situation. I don't think it's a one size fits all answer. Yeah.

So I want to touch on something you mentioned. You mentioned funding. You said raising rounds, raising angel rounds. And some folks listening to this might be thinking, oh, well, how much have you raised? Is probably the question on their mind. So first question is, have you talked about it publicly? And if not, let's give people an idea. Like, I don't think you've raised millions of dollars, right? You're still mostly bootstrapped. Our second round was a little bit short of 400K, something like this. We don't have this

Yeah, we don't have this number in public, but we have a nice blog post outlining the list of investors. So it was not secret. Good. I just wanted to touch that so people have an idea. Which is not a lot of money. It is not a lot of money if you're building something complicated. It sounds like a lot of money and it's totally not. This is the thing, Jane. When we were building Drip, I was about $150,000 to $200,000 of my own money and that got us to product market fit and then no other money raised and...

there's a there's a this is a hard road it was doing it on hard mode like i knew it i was gonna say in retrospect it was doing it on hard mode i knew it at the time it was doing it on hard mode but there was no avenue you know this is what 2013 2014 like there was no tiny seat and there wasn't there was no bootstrapper friendly funding and this is before indie.vc this is before like none of no angels i knew would invest in a bootstrap company that

didn't want to go the venture route, you know? So it's nice that that is now an option for so many bootstrappers. Not only has the stigma, remember when like bootstrappers used to be like, never raise funding. Funding is terrible. It's so black and white. And now that stigma has been largely removed, at least in most of the circles that I run in.

We went through the cycle very properly, step by step. First, you know, being brave to apply to TinySeed. Then, oh, there is nothing scary there. And then maybe, and then friends talked me into talking Benedict into getting more. And yeah, it was not VC money, but maybe with VC money, you get different dynamic still to explore this. Yeah, for sure.

All right, so let's enter stage three again. Stage two was higher somewhat. Stage three, done for you. It's offering done for you services. Talk through what that means and how that's evolved.

So on stage two, customer success engineer, that time we were really starting to build our expertise because we were onboarding users, learning about automation. We built a fabulous expert blog and then we were getting advanced into, we know how it should be done well and we see nobody's doing it well. So, and we just keep watching people struggle and you know how to do this, but you understand that

No, it's not a way forward to try and educate them from day one. And the way forward is probably to either recommend them to hire a consultant or do it for them. And we went as hard as like writing the first email saying like, no, you can't do this yourself because there is like five people in the world that are professional automators and you're not one of them. So either get a consultant or here's our team.

done for you page, which was probably a little bit too aggressive. So we don't have that email now. And that was early 2020. What was last year? 2023 that we started on this direction. And these services were surprisingly easy to sell. Compared to selling software, we were like, we sent an announcement and I got the first customer immediately. I was like,

good old consulting days when you can actually like sell something quickly and make a lot of money. Well, yep. Consulting. It's a, it's a business cheat code selling dollars for hours. That's why a lot of us start there, you know?

So I was executing these myself as a consultant, also learning a bunch. And honestly, it's more about, you know, that joke when it's like $1 for hitting the hammer and $9 for knowing exactly where to hit the hammer. It's kind of that kind of work a lot. So it was not too bad. I served a few packages and burned out because...

The reason why we started SaaS was to get out of consulting people. And now we're back in this. We have all the SaaS. We have the marketing machine going and services on top of that. That was really painful. But we kept offering this. There was not like a huge stream. So it was like...

A nice supplementary income, nice learning, happy customers, because when someone purchases a package, they're pretty much guaranteed to get started. And just overall a good experience. So yeah, that was an epoch that allowed us to...

Build the expertise even more because now we really did the drill for multiple companies and had feedback and implemented. Also actually helps to troubleshoot the tool itself quite a bit because you're using it yourself. You're dogfooding a bunch.

It was good. It was definitely good things to do. And it takes a bunch to set this up. So you have to write your sales page. We also got a consultation from an email marketing consultant, Summer, OS. She taught us her trade secrets on how to better approach the process with clients and

And we had these materials developed for intake questionnaires and steps and procedures and stuff. So when that was developed, it was just great to have it live and going and available for customers when they need it. I guess that's the description of this stage. And is this something that you would recommend to other SaaS founders if they similarly have a complex business?

or a powerful product that takes a lot to get onboarded? Because it sounds like that's why you're here, is that folks would come, sign up, and then just never...

You just wouldn't retain them. They wouldn't get set up. And so you're just removing one more excuse, right? Well, I don't have any emails. And it's like, go hire a consultant. You could have a page with, you know, agency partners who do this for them. We have those agents. Yeah, right. But people don't, but people maybe don't want to go to them or they're expensive, right? Because what's the range, the price range that you're offering the done for you?

Yeah, I can tell you the most popular package is the user onboarding kit includes the user onboarding campaign, like trial expire, expired trials reactivation. So all the campaigns around activation, it's for a thousand dollars and consultants typically charge, I don't know, eight, 12 K for the same thing up to 20 K sometimes depends on like how much goes in this.

Right. So you are, in essence, offering a heavily, a deeply discounted thing that is highly repeatable for you because you already have infinite client. Infinite's not true, but like you have a steady flow of incoming new clients. So you're not out there really marketing it because you're already marketing user list and it's repeatable for you. And you can offer it cheaper because you want them as a customer. You want that ACV. So it's interesting. Would you recommend that someone else do this?

You just sold it in like five different benefits, didn't you? So yes, of course. But also, I guess it depends on what kind of lifestyle you want for yourself and the style of your business. I know some companies that were only able to make the financials work with the services because otherwise it just didn't take...

We know some peers who only have, let's say, paid guided onboarding, which is like a flavor often for you, right? They have like a

$1,000 set up fee, which is for a bootstrap SaaS company whose customer is probably an overkill to make it a mandatory fee. But that person I'm talking about, they made it mandatory for everybody because it was pretty acceptable in the industry and they had a smashing success with it. So it depends. But at this point in my life, after seven years, I've really given up on trying to teach people as they get started. Yeah.

There is definitely a segment of bright folks who are willing to learn. It's not impossible.

But a typical busy person is not willing to absorb your information to make like really qualified setup. It's just either let them do their basic things or do it yourself really well. I guess that's, you know, the barbell strategy of Nassim Taleb. Like either very simple or very complicated and expensive. The mid-range is the danger zone. So before we move on to stage four, I want to ask you about...

Yeah.

And same ideas, same thoughts. And so you took that knowledge and now you've written a bunch of blog posts with that knowledge, right? Here's how to write this sequence. Here's how to do this and make it work. And so my question for you about that is, like, is that working? Because it's a lot of work, right? The done for you, you're getting paid for. But then to take that and to write a 2,000, 3,000 word blog post and put it out there on Google in the age of AI, where people are getting more and more answers from AI, has that effort been worth it?

Definitely so. Because just the niche of SaaS email marketing automation, thankfully with the word SaaS in it, is narrow enough for us to be able to plant a footprint there. And then everybody who writes, writes very shallow, very shallow, bare bones stuff like lead the users to the aha moment. Nobody talks how to set up the triggers, how to orchestrate the journey, how to segment people like really hard. Right.

And a lot of others. There is an endless amount of implementation details you can dive in and different ways to serve them. And going back to SEO, thankfully having the word SaaS is really helping for things like SaaS email marketing strategy and things like that. And we also...

And answering your second part, the effort, we also have like two parts to this. One is big expert guides, which I write myself like two, three times a year. And then we publish monthly roundups of email examples tailored to specific SaaS situations. Like, I don't know, we just published a post today, invite your team kind of emails. And we have a lineup of 20 emails that companies send during their onboarding flows.

Very narrow, very niche, very specifically curated and described. If you go to popular platforms like really good emails, you're going to find 80% emails from e-commerce, purely curated. So you're not going to be able to do that.

So with email examples, we kind of really hit our stride. We have a community advocate, Katerina, who goes around collecting examples in the communities, also distributing pieces there. So it's like, it's a content flywheel of sorts because we're collecting examples in exchange for backlinks from people, then using these examples for SEO. And this is great material. And it seems obvious, maybe for Ruben, but not for me.

It took like a few years to figure out. Someday. We all are on our own journeys, Jane. Yeah.

Yeah, so, and maybe that's why we're still, you know, so hot on the topic, me and Benedict. For Benedict, it's probably a never-ending technical challenge. We're never relaxing. And I'm never relaxing on the educational side. It's always, how can we better explain this? How can we better teach that? What's the easier way? Because you don't want to be like Big Bang Theory complicated about it. Nobody's going to read. You want to be human about very hard topics. So...

How do you do that? And you don't mean Big Bang Theory, the sitcom. You mean the scientific principle as defined by physicists, correct? I mean the sitcom, like this type of language they use. Ah, got it. The complexity. All right. All right. So with that, I do want to get into stage four, which is developing your own frameworks that you have developed out of the done-for-you work. Talk us through what it looks like today. So this year...

With doing more done-for-you projects, it was obvious that some patterns are emerging. And one of the patterns was...

The way we use existing materials that every SaaS has and that they're different for every business. Like some startups are heavy on video. Some startups have a great blog. Some startups offer 20 types of onboarding calls and just different things people have. And the way we use these materials in the process to craft actual storyboards for the campaigns and the campaigns themselves

And we wrote a guide about it. And as I was writing the guide, I knew this was a very good piece of content. I wanted to make it into a framework. And I tried to find an acronym and I couldn't. I spent an hour, you know, the example for this is like Pirate Metrics ARR.

You know, the company may be dead. We all know the pirate metrics. So we wanted to craft something equally timeless, but I couldn't find an acronym. And I was always stumbling on that moment when you break down what you have into atoms, like you atomize your resources into atomic small emails. And I was like, hmm, maybe there is something about the word atomic that deserves, that James Clear really likes, that we can also use. Yeah.

Yeah, so nothing revolutionary there. And went for the name. And then now that that was done,

It was a revelation that actually we also have another system for the first stage where we help our users to segment their journeys and use this as triggers and things like that. So lifecycle segmentation is something that we have been teaching for ages. And now we have a framework for the creative side of things. So it's obvious that we have system for this and system for that. So we thought, no, that's probably called frameworks.

And we started using that to promote on the website. Like our homepage has a section with fancy images where like get started with our frameworks and basically highlights that we can help you at every step of the stage. And now this is another PR thing. We can go around customer success shows and talk about using frameworks. Hey, Rob, here's how we got the placement with you. Yeah.

So it's like a never-ending cycle of doing things, talking about them, meta talking about them, and then so on and so forth, which is pretty fascinating, to be honest.

Yeah, folks want to check out Atomic Emails, you can go to Google and just type it in. It's like the third, look for userlist.com or obviously we'll link it up in the show notes. But it's a very thorough and obviously very knowledgeable article written from experience. You know, there's a difference, you said this earlier of like, people are publishing content about SaaS emails. And what they do is they either go to JetGPT or Baird or they go to

A freelance writer who doesn't know anything about SaaS emails, and then they do some Googling, and then they research, and then they put something together that is like a cursory thing to try to rank. And that's not, I mean, that's not what you've done here. All the posts on your blog, to be honest, feel like chapters of an e-book.

or even a short ebook, you know what I mean? Like they could be combined into a pretty interesting collection. The challenge, of course, is it changes so often. So don't do a book, Jane, because by next year it'll all be out of date. But that is an interesting competitive advantage that, you know, these days people are like, oh, content is dying, SEO is dying. And I don't necessarily...

Everything's sensational. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with that. But the idea that you can't still put out really deep, thoughtful, long form content on the internet on a topic someone cares about and have them discover it and use it. It's still viable today if you put in the time, but it's hard, right? It's a lot of work and takes a lot of knowledge. It's a choice because we don't publish anything but awesome content.

these days. So when someone says, let's co-market our integration, all you need is publish a blog post on your blog. And we're like, nope.

We're not publishing a blog post in our blog for a new integration. We're only doing like really cool stuff. And we also said, yeah, it's a whole separate topic for the podcast because we went through the stage of hiring, like of trying to hire experts to write for us for like 2000 bucks a pop.

And we did a few, like $1,500, $2,000. And it just, again, we stumbled into the same problem that folks are awesome in theory. And I can tell they're not like practitioners. They're not working with real clients on this specific. Well, I don't want to bring them down. They're fantastic, but not what we were looking for. There's too much technical detail in this.

So now we've settled on this combination of doing this ourselves and using community examples for other types of posts.

Jane Portman, folks want to find you on X Twitter. You are at UI Breakfast. And are you on Blue Sky? Yep, just joined lately. All right. Are you UI Breakfast as well? Yeah, UIBreakfast.com. That's my old consulting domain. Amazing. Well, thanks so much for joining me today to talk about customer success. Exciting. Thanks for having us, Rob.

Thanks again to Jane for joining me on the show. It's great to have you here this week and every week throughout 2024. It's a wrap. This is a wrap on 2024. I wish you and every listener a happy new year, and I hope 2025 is shaping up to treat you really well. This is Rob Walling signing off from episode 747. ♪