#117. Be A Man
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What's up everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying this show, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. All right. Suppy, suppy. That was strong. The boys are back in town. Hey, hey. Go, go.

Justin's crying. Wow, wow. We talk about masculinity, what that means for a man to cry. Yeah. Like male vulnerability, I guess. We talk about social dating norms. Who picks up the check? At a Michelin restaurant. We talk about Eric's wedding. Hello. Oh my God. Spoiler. Yes. It's just been a while since we got together, so it was a good time. So, without further ado, here we go. Let's go back to your living in a new world, right?

♪ With a rest and supple seat ♪ ♪ The ride ♪ ♪ The world in which she was found ♪

So CBT allows you to actually change things that you might be able to control. And mindfulness just says accept the world how it is. And sometimes you need to change things because you've got some fucked up behaviors that come from your upbringing. And sometimes you just need to chill the fuck out and just accept it and not...

multiply, amplify the effect of a negative thought, and that's mindfulness. And I never heard them kind of explained separately and then in conjunction, and I thought it was kind of interesting. Are we recording, by the way? Yeah, we are. Just rolling. It's pretty random, but anyways. I mean, I feel like of anyone here, Eric is probably the one who, besides babies, is venturing into other topics and then like...

Things that are happening in life. Yeah. Am I wrong here? No, no, no. He's a breath of fresh air. Yeah. Because if it was just Justin and I here. From our pit of anxiety with child rearing. If it was just Justin and I sitting here, we would just be like, so what about baby life? You're so in it. Like you're so. So deep in it. So deep in it. Before you have a baby, you do some research, right? What to expect and, you know, stuff like that.

And then I feel like all the stuff out there is all kind of like sunshine and rainbows. Oh, this is going to be like the best time of your life. Like, you know, having a kid is such a miracle. And, but for me, like the first couple months were like, that was like the darkest period of my life. Like it really was, you know, and it wasn't until like now that I do more research and I realized, oh, actually for a lot of people, they feel that way. They just don't really talk about it. Especially men.

And they don't really share that side of it. I feel like that is something that has to do with what, as we all kind of understand as a certain type of a masculinity trait...

to not be able to talk about emotions or just, you handle it yourself. There's nothing, why? What is depression? What is anxiety? Man up, right? The term man up. And actually, what you just said right there just shows that you kind of need to talk about it.

You know, whether it's through your friends or family just talking it out, what you had to go through, even hearing other people's stories, telling you everything's okay, you know, things like that, right? That maybe sometimes you... Because you in particular, we've said it many times on the show that you are not as open in terms of emotionally or communicatively in general as compared to us, even though I'm not that much either, but...

you're probably more so than i am less so than i am which is funny because like i would agree with you like in normal life but i feel like on the podcast i'm actually the most open yeah but once the the once that once we start recording yeah you open up a lot it's weird it is weird right it's strange yeah like i don't do it intentionally he just said he just said i haven't told anyone this however you

You know, ladies and gentlemen. To the millions. To the millions. To my biggest fans. Wait, hold on. That is true, right? I just went through the darkest time of my life. I need help. That is true. I do want to break that down for a second. Why? Confessions of justice. I mean, we've hung out. We were at Eric's wedding. Like, you know, we were hanging out other times.

You know, I know you do sometimes say, yeah, I'm going through some stuff, but that's about as far as it goes, right? Maybe sometimes you're asking, you know, am I going a little too far? But that's about it. You don't really dig deep into real emotional outpour. But when we start rolling, I feel like you're just like shoving us out of the way. You're just like, let me just pour out my heart. Yeah, it's strange. Yeah, I didn't realize it until like I started listening to our episodes and I realized, oh, wait.

I feel released when I can talk about it on here. Should we get paid for this, Eric? Should we be... You guys aren't getting paid for shit. But cheers. Cheers. Welcome back, Eric. Thank you, thank you. It's been a while, huh? Haven't seen him since his wedding. Yeah, happy new year. Actually... And for all the women out there, Eric's finally off the market. It's official. It's only been three weeks. It seems like it's been a long time because we...

Got through Chinese New Year. Do you feel like you've gotten more emotional? Oh, I was going to mention this. Yes. I'm going to admit something right now, and you're probably going to laugh at me. So I went on a date. I had a date night, date day with my wife yesterday. She hasn't been out of the home for like a regular day in months. So we went out and she's been begging me to take her to see a movie.

So yesterday we had a nanny and they had her parents come in. We're like, okay, take it over. We're going out for a few hours and shut everything off. So she wanted to go see Avatar. So we went to go see Avatar, the newest Avatar, before it goes off. And it's Avatar. I had no expectations. I just want to see some really beautiful graphics and awesome CG. I'm freaking crying.

Yeah, I'm freaking crying. I cry when I watch TV a lot now. I don't know what it is. As long as there's like a fatherly figure with kids or something like that, I'm crying. Like the Super Bowl is on. I'm crying. It's like, no. No, I cried. Yeah, no, I get you 100%. I feel like hormonally, I get more emotional now. I cry a lot easier. I've never really cried before. I'm not a crier.

But I've caught myself tearing up a few times. It's weird, right? Yeah, it's really weird because it's uncontrollable. The last time I teared up a little bit was very recently, actually. I was watching The Last of Us, episode three.

I heard that's an amazing show. Yeah, it's pretty good. And episode three is actually a pretty amazing episode, but it's like a filler episode because it doesn't really do anything for the overall storyline. But it's an amazing like kind of isolated episode. You cried during the case. Like Nick Offerman. It was really touching, man. Yeah.

And I was like tearing up. And I kept thinking about it. The Last of Us. You haven't heard of The Last of Us? It's based off of an amazing video game. It's like the TV show right now. And on HBO or Netflix? HBO. Yeah, it's the same showrunner who did Craig Mazin, who did an amazing miniseries called

Chernobyl. If you've ever seen Chernobyl. Chernobyl was amazing. Amazing. So same guy. Okay. Yeah. Hey, Eric, I mean, Justin and I have just opened up about our emotional disorder. Do you have anything? Disorder. You call it a disorder? Do you feel you've had any type of change?

recently or yeah like post marriage I I I think we appreciate each other more I think it just it's though have you cried that's what he's trying to say I mean like you kind of you tear up like I I feel like I haven't had kids but I I feel I totally get what you're saying like I get emotional the last couple of years like I feel like I easily get emotional and like I'm like I'll be at work or something I'll be a touching moment we'll be

thanking some colleague or whatever, or there's some slightly more momentous moment of something, of gratitude, or I'll have to share something. And then I'll literally be like, I'll just feel like crying. I'm like, what the fuck? They say that's also part of aging. As we get older as men, we lose testosterone. Exactly. Right? Yeah. That's one of the...

cues of aging. Part of the thing I wanted to ask you guys as well, because we're being a lot more emotional right now in this episode and sharing some of these more emotional thoughts that we have. Just the idea of what it means as a man or masculinity in general, which I had hinted at earlier, which is as a man, you should not be so emotional. You should not wear your emotions on your sleeve. You should

you know, control yourself, you know? And there are a lot of different quote unquote manly traits that quote unquote a traditional man should have. Do you guys ever think about that? Yeah, I've been wrestling with that actually. Like as funny as it sounds. It's a topic right now. I've been wrestling with my own masculinity lately. Like it's really a thing. Like when I caught myself like- Can we unwrap a little? Bring it out a little bit? Like when I caught myself the other day, like just tearing up to like The Last of Us, I'm like, what's going on with me? You know?

And I'm thinking like, man, like I just feel like I'm just soft. And that's probably how I shouldn't feel. But I just feel like, am I just getting soft? I'm like, I just feel like I'm so...

vulnerable you know more vulnerable than i used to be i don't like that feeling i don't like that it's a hot topic right now i mean i don't know if eric i'm looking at eric right now if you've been thinking about this at all or exposed to any time eric works out all the time so he's like so i mean he is the he is the he is manly he's the epitome of what a man is yeah it's very manly yeah

But do you ever think about what the traditional traits of a man are and how it's getting challenged? They're getting challenged in certain parts of the world now. Are they getting challenged? Oh, yeah. What are you talking about? Okay, so there is a topic of interest in, let's say, in America, let's say, where you have polar sides going at it about...

What does it mean to be a man? Well, what is gender in general, right? But that falls under, okay, what does it mean to be a traditional man? And you have a lot of people, well, not a lot of people, but you have certain type of people who are standing on the forefront of pushing out the agenda of the traditional masculine male, which could be a bit...

you know, to some people, you know, to maybe modern women of today. So that's definitely one of the topics that I've seen here and there scrolling through different type of channels.

channels and content. Well, that's a whole ball of yarn to unravel, right? If we get into a whole gender conversation, but I don't think that's what it is. That's not what we're talking about. I'm talking about the traditional traits of a man. Okay. What does it mean to be a man? I don't know what you're reading or what you're seeing to feel that way, but I don't know. I don't feel it's being so challenged or

I feel like there's definitely that gender and that sexuality conversation happening. But in terms of the... Well, there is the whole topic of toxic masculinity, right? Yeah, they go hand in hand. But I feel like that's just a buzz term. But in reality, in society, in real everyday life, I don't think anyone's really going around challenging that. I don't really feel that way. And I feel like, at least in my personal experience...

Yeah, I feel women want probably their men to be a little more sensitive. But at the end of the day as well, like they also want their man to be a man and take care of them and be kind of like a strong figure, you know, that can withstand and not crumble. You know, like I don't feel like that's being like toxic.

I feel like that's just probably, if you asked a hundred women out there, they probably still want a man to have a lot of those classic male traits, but obviously not overly toxic. I just feel like that's the reality of the situation. But in terms of a lot of the dialogue and buzz terms, like they'll talk about it, but I don't think it's really used, like really in real life, like exercised. Yeah. If that makes any sense. Well, I mean, what you just, how you just responded is quite reasonable, right?

especially coming as other men in this room, right? I mean, what I just said, would that come off as being like toxic masculinity? I don't know. To some people, they might feel that way. Yeah, because you have a lot of extremism, right? And it just tends to happen that the extreme voices are the ones that are loudest. Yes. Right? But they don't represent the majority. No, of course not. But that's just, it's just conversation. For us, it's a cause of conversation. I don't think any of us are toxic masculine. Well, I don't know.

I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. None of us are toxic masculine people. None of us want to be, well, I don't actually know what it, I don't know exactly what it means, but I don't think that if it's a, if it's something that's going to harm others, right? Like, I don't think that any of us want to be that way. We might,

you know, kind of show traits of it sometimes. Whatever it is. None of us want to be bad people. Well, that's just being a bad person. That's just being a dick. What is toxic masculinity? We don't have a baseline for that. We need to establish a baseline. And we're not, first of all, none of us are, it's just not something that we've thought about that much. Yeah, exactly. But I think- But maybe that's also the problem, right? Well,

I don't know if it's a problem, but it is. Let's kind of step back and say that issues of gender are more and more important. I think we can acknowledge that. Like just intuitively, if you look around the world today, issues of gender are more and more important. And we know that in the past, things were...

In a way that we wouldn't accept now, things were worse than they are now in a way that we wouldn't accept. So like, you know, like I think in school, we've studied some of these things at a very, very superficial level, but gender is becoming more and more important. I think we can say that. And then the second thing is that this notion of having just this male-female kind of thing

has slowly changed as well because now we're realizing that maybe there's a, there isn't just like this black and white definition of two different genders. There's, it's much more complex than that. Right. And then third of all, we have always in our life, um, identified as masculine. Uh, and we've been shaped by that for sure. Right. Like, don't laugh. Yes. There's a lot of humor in that. Um, but, uh, as I'll give you some examples. So,

Growing up in Texas or New Jersey or whatever, there was a kind of a sense of equating masculinity or being a man or a boy or whatever with physical strength. And if you didn't have physical strength and you weren't as strong, then...

people could challenge you on that. And it was like not a great feeling. And especially like if you're an Asian kid and you're a little bit smaller than some of the other kids, you might get beat up. And so there's all kinds of implications with that. We didn't wrestle as much with like

the male race may be treating the female race unfairly as much growing up. And then it started becoming more and more prominent because a lot of things started getting exposed with the Me Too movement and that kind of stuff, right? And so then that was like one thing that we started being more aware of. And then with, and I have very little knowledge of

I don't even know these terms, but the different types of gender, right? Because some people might have their own pronouns and all that stuff. So that's like a whole new area. Yeah, I think like to answer your question, Howie, I've thought less about like that kind of gender stuff and just more about my own like shortcomings. Like I'll beat myself up about a lot of things, but I don't know if I framed them explicitly in male-female terms. It's more like...

I frame it in a way like I should have done this, but I didn't do this. And in my world, the people that do that thing that I wanted to do could be male or female.

And I might frame my world more in terms of race than gender. And that might be my own bias, being male. So if I was like female and I was Asian, then I might think even more about it. So that might be my own, you know, tiny bit of privilege in it. So yeah, I don't think we should like overly beat ourselves up as long as we take kind of a learning attitude and say, hey, like I'm open-minded, like,

I want to learn more. But it is like a lot of these conversations get very, very sensitive. And I do have the, whether it's race or gender or that kind of stuff, I do feel like we are getting into this territory where it's better to not talk about it sometimes because if you do and you say something wrong, then you might lose something from that. And I am wary of that.

as well, but I think it's important to talk about it too. So there is this, it's just hard to navigate right now. You talk about it, you're in a position of power, blah, blah, blah, someone can take you down. But if we don't talk about it, that's not good either. So it's all this game of inches right now. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's the unfortunate thing is to not talk.

is the safer bet because you don't put yourself out there. And I think that's what a lot of people do, right? They're afraid. A lot of people are afraid and they just rather not risk it. And so they don't talk. And then the people that leaves like kind of like the minority of people who do want to talk,

A lot of those people are on the extremes, and then that's why their voices become amplified because the majority of people are probably rational people with rational lives, and they're like, you know what? I'm not going to talk. Why even risk it? It's like the blacks and the whites, not color of race, comes out, but the grays get kind of like whatever because they're gray. And I think one antidote, of course, to that is just to listen.

But let me go back again. So about the whole idea of toxic masculinity. Wait, hold on. So I just want to call out that like we have multiple devices in the room now. Are you okay with that, Justin? I've always been okay with that. Like, I don't know how he's kind of...

Yeah, he's really like modeling you these days, huh? I got the hat on. He's got the hat on. Maybe that was my comment about the coherence and eloquence in his speech. I don't know. Next time he's going to come with like a little puffer vest on. I was doing burpees before he came in. He started doing push-ups before the show. For those of you who can't see, there's even a more advanced model of iPad sitting in front of him with the pencil and everything. Is that the new model? No, 2021. 2021?

Anyway, so the definitions of toxic masculinity, real quick. There are three particular components. One is toughness, right? That men should be physically strong, emotionally callous. Wait, so this is according to what right now? Very well mind. Okay. So it's an online search. Yeah, I just went online real quick. Okay.

I mean, these are pretty general, right? So it's emotionally callous, behaviorally aggressive. Secondly is anti-femininity. So reject anything that's considered feminine, showing emotion, accepting help. Wait, wait, hold on. Rejecting this when it manifests itself in another male or rejecting this in general when it manifests itself in anybody? I think both probably, right? Probably. If a female acts...

So, quote unquote, feminine, a toxic male would not like that? No, no, no, no, no, no. About themselves as a male. About themselves as a male or other males. Oh, right. Okay, okay. They would probably put down other males who have these more feminine traits, right? As Eric always says to me, so. Yeah.

It's an opportunity. I've got to look myself in the mirror. Or, or as it would apply for a male perspective to a female, it would probably be the male would expect these traits, feminine traits out of a female. And when she doesn't display- As a sign of weakness or something like that. No, no, no, no. As a sign of like, this is what you should be. Mm-hmm.

And then when she's not like that or she's a little tougher, she's a little stronger, then he's like either threatened by her or feels like, oh, she's not feminine enough. Like whatever these thoughts are, right? That would probably be how they would feel about the female. Right. And there are lots of studies with that as well. Yes.

And the third one is power. So this is the assumption that men must work towards obtaining power and status, whether social or financial, so they can gain the respect of others. So those are the three toughness, anti-femininity, and power are traits of toxic masculinity.

See, out of all those, though, the only thing that I would say is really, truly toxic masculinity is the anti-femininity part. I think so, too. I mean, toughness, like, why is that... Why is being, like, a tough person toxic masculinity? Women can be tough, too. I think it's just basically the idea of using stature to overpower people, or especially women. You know, aggressiveness. Yeah. So what is...

What about Jocko? How does Jocko fall on this scale? Willink, or how do you say his last name? Jocko Willink, yeah. I don't know. I've never actually really listened to him. I know who he is, but I've never actually listened to his podcast or anything like that. So I don't know what he's all about. I know he's a former Navy SEAL. Leadership, like he has a leadership company. He's got a podcast. He's pretty popular. I know he's popular. He seems pretty thoughtful. Like he's not like a...

He doesn't follow all the stereotypes of the toxic masculinity, except for the fact that if you looked at him, he's like a beast. Well, I think one of the faces of this sort of quote-unquote movement of men being even more maybe toxic is Andrew Tate.

Have you guys seen or heard of him? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he... What's his deal right now? Is he still arrested? I don't know. Like, where is he? He's in Romania, I think. Is he still being held up in Romania? I think so. I think he's going through the legal... Okay, wait. Wait. Yeah. So Andrew Tate, would we consider then Donald Trump exhibiting signs of toxic masculinity? Yeah. I think people who are anti-Trump will definitely say that. Yeah. Yeah.

But I don't know. I mean, anti-femininity, a lot of that stuff. He's like terrible. He does anti-everything. It's like male chauvinism. I mean, there's a lot of different traits that he's shown. But I hear that spoken. First of all, I don't know why I have to caveat this. I'm not trying to defend Trump. What I'm saying is from what I've personally actually seen from him directly, not what people are saying about him, I haven't really seen him being like all that toxic and

Like a toxic male? Grabber by the pussy? So yeah, because I've never actually seen a clip of him saying that. Like, when did he say that? I mean, I've heard the clip. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, well, that's pretty toxic. I just don't watch a lot of Trump, so I don't know. My sense is that there's enough evidence out there that shows that he exhibits a lot of traits of not respecting women. So I think he would fall under at least part of this toxic masculinity piece, right? Yeah. So the whole conversation that I think maybe we can kind of explore, maybe ask each other certain questions is,

There's one side of the fence where people say, well, yeah, you have toxic masculinity, of course it's bad, but some of those ideas are not necessarily bad.

The idea of toughness is not bad. The idea of being comfortable as a man, anti-femininity, right, is what's bad about that? The search of power, the pursuit of power, what's bad about that? It's more your expectations for others, I think. Yeah, it's how you abuse it or how you go overboard with it that maybe is bad. And that's that one side of the fence. But then you have the other side of the fence where people are like, no, that's...

It's all shit, right? You have, you know, men need to back down. It's been a men-driven world. But who's really saying that? It's conversation. I'm saying it's conversation. I'm not saying that there's a certain person you can put a face on. I'm just saying. Yeah, yeah, no, no. I'm not trying to go at you. I'm just saying, like, generally. Like, how big of a problem is this? Like, who's saying that? Like, no one's ever said that.

There are conversations of that, especially from feminists or from even men stepping up and being like, it's okay for men to be emotional. That's why I brought this up because the idea of showing emotion, quote unquote, showing weakness, or even in the relationship, should a man speak out on their emotions to...

speak about their emotions to their loved ones is that good you know and then the quote-unquote manly men would be like hell no you should be you should be that tower of power for you know for in the relationship never show your weakness because the minute the you know your wife or girlfriend sees that you're weak they're they lost respect for you so that's like one side of

the conversation and the other side is like, what are you talking about? Of course, it's good to open up your emotions, speak freely to your woman. And you hope to have a woman that, you know, respects that. No, I get it. But I think that that's focusing too much on the extremes of either side, which I don't like. Yeah, I get you that that's a conversation happening, but that's a conversation between like the two extremes, right? Like, I don't know how that really applies. I think that's,

I don't know. Like, I think even in American society right now, like, I think if you were to talk to most men who would view themselves as manly, masculine, macho, and tough, I think the conversation has shifted where people are a little more open to being a little more vulnerable emotionally, right?

I mean, we even see it like, you know, I haven't heard a lot about Jocko, but like I've seen other guests doing other podcasts who are like, you know, quote unquote, former Navy SEALs or even, what's his name? The runner guy. David Goggins. David Goggins, right? Like they're talking about like overcoming their own like emotional, like demons and depression. And they're opening up on stuff like that too. And these are like, you know, known to be like the macho men in American culture right now. Mm-hmm.

So I just don't see that as a real reality for most. Where like, oh, a man can't be emotional at all. You have to bottle it all up. I think that's really extreme. Even in American culture right now. That's just my feeling. I don't know. I have no idea. Well,

let's anchor this back to like how the conversation started. Cause like, I was like, okay, where are we going with this? Right? Yeah. Where are we going? Right. Well, no, I think part of this show is that we can talk about anything, but then we can bring it back to something that we can learn from or something that might be of interest. Right. It started with you saying that you were wrestling with, I don't know how, like before that, but you were wrestling a little bit with your masculinity and we were referring earlier to

We were feeling emotionally a little bit more vulnerable than we used to. You two, at least, were. And I was kind of echoing that, even though I haven't had kids. Before we had kids, right? Or got married or whatever it is. And some of it might be hormonal and some of it might be like getting older and some of it might be being getting wiser. And then...

it sparked a thought within Howie that, okay, there's been some conversations maybe in the US, I don't know about China, but there've been some conversations around toxic masculinity, right? We're also aware of the sexual harassment in the last five or 10 years that related to this, that maybe toxic masculinity has reared its ugly head and the relationships between men and women

it's not directly related, but I would have to guess that some of the guys that were guilty of this type of really predatory behavior, there might be something to do with toxic masculinity, right? There might be some connection there. And so I think bringing us back to us, it's kind of like, here's an opportunity, right? The opportunity is to say, okay, here are the extremes of the behavior. We don't think that the three of us

exhibit a lot of those extreme behaviors, but it's number one, it's always good to understand the extreme stuff and then understand where do you sit? Because maybe you have something that sits in this extreme. None of us are perfect. Without even realizing. Without even realizing. And so it's like, I think part of the, again, like some of the things that we think about is like, how do we become a better person?

even when we are not explicitly sort of in that category. It gives us a chance to kind of like with some boundaries or some buffer space to say, hey, like, where are we? But I think the other one that's kind of interesting is that once you have these extremes, then everyone starts questioning what's in the middle. And then you start kind of reassessing what is in that middle part. So like this notion of vulnerability, right?

This notion of like being a little bit more emotional. What is our relationship with the female gender? How much financial responsibility should the guy take? So outside of like toxic masculinity, we could argue that maybe there's some women that say, I'm 100% equal. We're equal partners in this. And we could also argue in some countries or some places where the woman's like, oh, I expect the man to...

maybe take on a larger majority. Or I expect the man to maybe protect me physically or whatever it is. And so it challenges a lot of our assumptions about

the expectation for the other person. So what the female expects of the male, what the male expects of the female, and then also what our expectations are of ourself and the balance of that. So sometimes you look at the extremes to then- Calibrate. Calibrate and investigate yourself. So I think like, otherwise it's not like a-

productive conversation, but it does go back to like our, as our identity shift, maybe we should be thinking about what fatherhood means and what masculinity means and like, what does it mean to be like a husband and all this stuff? Now we have probably deliberately

in some ways, and maybe we're just lucky that we chose partners that represent sort of how we want that yin and yang balance to be a little bit as well, if that makes sense, right? But I think we have to be flexible too and not just buy into these preconceptions, right? But I don't like, I mean...

I don't own a house. I don't even own a fucking car, honestly. So that probably rules... It could rule me out for a lot of women, right? I mean, not that I'm not on the market, but... But if you were, wink, wink. So I think whenever we talk about something, we can always anchor it back to this notion of how can we learn a little bit more? But these are some sensitive topics. I usually don't like to talk about this stuff because I just don't...

Don't want to put myself out there in terms of like inadvertently saying something. Right? But at the same time, like if someone throws it out there, then we've got to, you know, we comment on it. Yeah. I think the reason why I'm asking this, I'm bringing this topic up and kind of, you know, we haven't really, we haven't deep dived in yet, but I was thinking about how I would raise my sons.

And moving forward, it doesn't matter if I live in China, if I live in America, if I live anywhere else, societies all over the world kind of have very different traits when it comes to the male and female gender and their roles traditionally. Just like in America traditionally,

The experiences I had when I was single going on dates were very different than here in China when I was going on dates. For example, like who pays for the bills? For example, like who pays for the bills or even just the... What's the term that we were using before? Sort of like the social... Like established...

an established social contract yeah like a social contract where what's normalized yeah what's normalized exactly you know between a male and a woman a man and a woman um just thinking about that and it's so much more complicated now right okay i don't want to say like that's kind of a declarative statement but it's different it's there are nuances now because again this is also like our kind of um

Our perceptions of it. And it's changing. Because if you go on a date now, okay, there's male-female. There's male-male. There's female-female. And those are the obvious ones. There's also other combinations as well. So it gets...

a little bit more complicated. So the traditional gender sort of definitions break down in some sense. You have to go a little bit deeper and say, okay, like what's, what goes beneath the surface? Now, at the same time, at the same time, if you are dating, you're on the market and you go out there and you date people, there is that, you can't control what the other person thinks. So you've got to kind of form your view of the world, right?

And then the other person might be like outdated. They might be like living in the 1980s, right? And then you like that person, you want to date them, and then you go and like you do something. And your notions are based on 2023 or whatever. Theirs is based on 2013, 2003. It gets a little bit, there's more, I think, permutations to this equation. Well, it's very individual. But if we're just talking about like our own

like what would apply to us right and we take the example of okay let's we go on a date right i'm a man she's a woman we're going on a date i think i don't think it's really that different between china and america but i do i don't know this could be totally off right but i do get the sense that if i were to go on a date in america today in 2023 with a woman

And let's say we're having dinner and the check comes. And without asking, I just automatically assume to pay for her meal as, you know, as I probably would in real life. You do run the risk, I feel, depending on the woman, of offending her.

100%. But you wouldn't run that risk here in China, I don't think. Like, it wouldn't be offensive. It's a lot less. It's a lot less of a chance. The percentage is much smaller. You know, I used to always share this one story, and I'll just say it. I don't know if I ever said it on this podcast, but I'll say it real quickly. Before moving to China, I remember I went on this date with this girl.

And I met her at a bar. We got on the phone call. And she's like, look, I got this great restaurant. We should try out. You want to have a meal? And I said, yeah, sure. And I'm like, yeah, there's a great concert afterwards. French laundry. And then after the restaurant, there's a great concert. Maybe we'll go check out a show at Brownies or something, whatever. And she's like, okay, that sounds great. It's a date, right? First time going on a date.

I know nothing about her. We didn't chat too much beforehand. We meet up at the restaurant. We talk. This is Howie. He knows nothing about her, but yet they're going on a date. Yeah, we met at a bar, right? That's how he rolled. She was attractive. What did you like about her? She was attractive. Let him tell the story. Toxic masculinity. Yeah, she was attractive and we were dancing to the same type of music. So...

You know, seemed pretty cool. Good fashion sense, all that stuff. So we go out and had a good time. The bill comes, right? And I'm like you, Justin. The bill comes. I didn't think about going AA or anything like that. I just wanted to pay for it. So I took the bill and she right away snaps at me. She goes, what are you doing?

And I'm like, I'm making sure it's correct. I'm Asian. It's the accounting skills. So I opened the check. I'm like, I'm going to pay for it. And she's like, why are you going to pay for it?

So all of a sudden I'm kind of thrown off. I'm like, well, I don't know, what's up? What's going on? - What's happening right now? - And she's like, "What, you don't think I can pay for it?" And I'm like, "No, no, no, that's not what I mean at all." I mean, she goes, "At least tell me how much it is, I'll chip in half." I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, it's okay, let me treat this. I got this."

And she just like got really pissed at me. Toxic. So toxic. Toxic masculinity. Did you assume that I wanted you to pay? I don't know if I can be friends with you anymore. Yeah, it's like the femininity, right? It's like, okay, she's female. She doesn't have the finances. She doesn't want to pay. I've got to pay. Like that's toxic.

Are you trying to tell an example or what? Like you moved to China. I don't know if we can be friends with Howie after this. He moved to China just so he could practice his toxic masculinity. He was like, the women over there can't take it. Because I'm dying to pay for every bill. He's literally like, he's like, I'm not letting you look at it. And I don't know, like, I can't, okay, never is a strong word, but like, hyperbole, right? But like, that would never happen here in China. Right.

Yeah, I mean, I remember the first date I came to China, I was like a little bit like, okay, well, should I give a little more time? And then all the girls here thought he would... They would be offended if you made her pay for half, right? All the girls were like, this guy, why is he so petty? This guy is a jerk. This guy, look, let's bring it down to earth. We are three males sitting here talking about this, right? So...

let's try to exercise some open-mindedness as we always preach and think about it from the female side for a second. Like, I guess it is a little condescending, right? If you're a strong, independent woman and you make enough money to support yourself and you're your own person and you're going on this date, it's like, why assume that I can't pay? But it's like,

But that's from their perspective. But like, obviously from our side, and I'll speak for you because I'm pretty sure we're on the same wavelength here. We're not assuming they can't pay for it. We're trying to do something nice. Yeah. We're just trying to, it's a gesture, right? Like we're just trying to gesture, like we were brought up to be gentlemen and, you know, to hold the door open for women, right? Exactly. Which could be offensive now in the States, I guess, if you like held the door open. To certain type of people. To certain type of people, right? Again, I don't think to most. I think we're talking about the fringes, right? Yes. Yeah.

So, yeah, but you do run that risk because you never know who you're with. Like, you know, you don't know. Let me ask you this. Okay. Okay. So if you were with like some kind of like, okay, let's, let's say that you were with someone that was a friend or someone that you were, you had just met, but it wasn't, there wasn't a romantic aspect to it. Okay. So it could be the, it could be any gender, right?

and you went out and you had dinner and then the bill came, whatever those dynamics would be, there would be less expectations, I would guess, because it's not romantic, right? There'd be much less expectations, right? Yeah. And then you would do what you would do. In that context, if you just totally like didn't look at the bill and ignored it, that would probably subtly, subconsciously raise some signals because no one wants to like hang out with like a cheapskate.

if you just grab the bill like extremely aggressively, it might not raise too many eyebrows, but then people are like, oh, this person is generous or whatever it is, right? So it would be like that. It would be less sensitive, right? Now, if you're actually on a date and then you think about the range of responses and reactions, I think it's also in that setting an indicator of like,

sort of whether or not you're going to get along with this person too. Yeah, for sure. Right? Because like if you look at the full range, if you look at the range where someone's going to be completely just judgmental, that's the fact that you picked up the check. Because that's judgmental. Like literally, let's say you picked up the check and you were just like, you're just being nice. I mean, I don't think we're like dicks.

Right. We're like offering the, let's say we're just like, we pick up the bill and like, okay, maybe we'll just pay. Right. Okay. Maybe, I don't know. Just trying to be generous. Yeah. And be air on the side. Like you would do that with a friend. Yeah. If I went out with a friend, I'm not going to go to some expensive restaurant and be like, oh, Justin, you know, you pay it. Right. So this, but then they're like, they just get all like hardcore about it. You probably have a conversation. And then if they really like did not, if they really kind of push that sort of bias, then

You'd probably be like, I don't know. But on the flip side, I just want to just dig a little bit deeper. On the flip side, from a female's perspective, they could be coming in from a perspective also, on a date, I want to show that I'm not here to get a free ride, to get a free meal. You're not challenging me to challenge my financial situation. I just want to let you know I'm cool. Yeah.

I'm chill. And that was what I got actually because I dated her a couple times and got to know her better. And I realized that that was her agenda. She just wanted to be like... She wasn't actually angry. She was just trying to show you like she's down. Yeah, she's just like... She's not a gold digger. Not that I had money, but like...

She wanted to express that she's chill. Yeah. And everything is all good. Like, we're in it together. Like, let's explore each other. That's it. Well, that in itself, and then like, not to kind of nitpick, right? But this notion of, there is a term in the English language that talks about

a person of female gender that takes advantage of males? Like we all know this term, there's been songs written about it, right? But if I asked you, what's the term for like a dude who does the same thing?

I don't know if I could respond so articulately and cleanly with a word that represented... Yeah, I don't know what that term would be. Because there's this connotation. So, like, that's bias in itself. Yeah, that there is that stigma. Yeah. And it's only a one-way stigma. Well, I think you can call a guy a gold digger, but it's not as, like...

And that's like a, that bias is not necessarily like our shortcoming. It's, we've been programmed with that. So in my mind, I associate certain words with certain things. So you can't totally blame yourself for having that perception, although you can train yourself to kind of think differently. But what's the word for like a dude who just free rides off of like women? Yeah, see, so in China, there's actually a clear word for that. But in English, like,

I don't like it. Little white face. That's so racist in America, dude. Little white face. Like what? What did you say? Yeah. He's a little white face, yo. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah. That's, but I wonder how much hypocrisy is infused in that notion where even like, let's say you were dating a female who was on the extreme of like feminism. Yeah.

and you went on a date with her. Thanks, Eric. You went on a date with her, and okay, so the check comes, and as the man, you do nothing, and you sit there, you know, showing that you expect her to pay for your meal, right? Like, I wonder, even for the most radical feminist, I wonder how attractive they would find that. Like, honestly. It just feels so awkward. Yeah.

Like, would they be like, oh, he's, oh, okay, he gets it. Okay, I like this guy because, you know. He respects me because he knows I'm powerful. Yeah, he expects my power or, you know, my independence or my, you know, like, whatever it is. Like, I wonder truly, in the heart of hearts, how many of them would find that a time? Like, at the end of the meal, you're like this when the bill comes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So maybe the solution, and at the risk of overthinking it, because I think that's the other extreme, is like then you start second guessing everything. It's like, do you just go into the, like before you even start the meal, and you just kind of set the stage. Yeah, right. And you say, hey, I don't have a lot of experience dating. I typically err on the side of caution, even with my friends, for taking the bill, because I don't want to be perceived as a cheapskate.

But if you have any other notions and you would like me to do differently, just let me know. Like, and then they're like, this guy's a fucking idiot. Or they might be like, oh, he's like really sensitive. I like him. He's thoughtful. Or they can be like, he's not manly enough. Yeah. It all depends on the person. You don't know. And that's why it's dating. That's why you're sending signals. And like, ultimately we don't get married. You know how he didn't get married with that tall, stylish. Was she tall? No. Okay. Stylish, manly.

terrible taste in music because we know how he has terrible taste in music. But you mentioned the key word, Eric, I think is overthinking because at the end of the day, okay, it's fun to talk about. We talk about it, you know, we're curious. But at the end of the day, why change your behavior?

For anything, because especially on a date, because you should be you. And if that person you're dating doesn't vibe with who you are naturally, then you shouldn't be dating that person anymore. Right. Like, like you shouldn't change what you would do and be someone you're not just to conform or out of fear or, you know, out of like whatever, like caution of what they're thinking, you know what I mean? Because you're,

The whole point of dating is to feel each other out and find, you know, someone that you're compatible with. And so, like, if all of a sudden you pick up the bill and they're, like, getting all angry at you, then you're probably not compatible with that person unless that's what you want. And rarely, I think, is it probably that one thing that was truly the issue. There are probably a lot of other things and that just gets scapegoated or whatever it is. Or that person wasn't ready to be in a relationship. It really is that one thing. And we probably...

want to scapegoat it and say, hey, that was the thing that kept us from whatever. Yeah, I don't know. I don't even know where we are in the conversation at this point. I just feel like... I know. I think it's like if there's a headline to this is don't go to extremes. Don't make a lot of assumptions. And I think the world is changing. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I mean, even in China, I think...

I think the thought of going AA in China, which is each person pays for their own meal on a date, is actually, I feel, a little more normalized. Because even before, years ago, when I would go out, like, that wasn't... Like, I would still pay just because that's who I am. Why is it called AA, by the way? I have no idea. Is that like an international term? Or is that only, like, in China they call it AA? Alcoholics Anonymous? So for our large... Because I learned that when I came here in China. For our large, like...

like non-China international growing, exponentially growing fan base is

AA means like when you go out, you just go Dutch. Yeah, go Dutch is the American term for it, right? Go Dutch. And it's become more and more popular in China to the point where the payment apps like WeChat or whatever have features built in because they want to take the ambiguity and social awkwardness out of that. Because in China, and here's another nuance, and correct me if I'm wrong, if your understanding is different, Justin, Howie.

is that in China, it's like very familial. So when you go out, like it's a sign of generosity and like non-cheapness to just like offer to pay the bill. Somebody takes the bill. Yeah. You never split it. When you go out, it's like everyone fights for the bill. Like it's like, no one's like hiding from it in general. And so like,

there has been a movement in the last few years where to take the pressure out of that because like Asian people like a fucking fight over like they're like literally like fighting and shit like my family yeah like in America they make scenes that is such a cultural thing because you never you'll never see that like with like an American family like maybe less maybe less you know I don't know maybe less it depends on but

Like they wouldn't be dropping elbows. Jumping off the top rope. Maybe in other cultures, it's more based on the uniqueness of that particular, the generosity of that family or that person. But in China, there's a, like a lot of Asian cultures, there's a general bias towards like, I'm going to lose face if I go out in a meal with like good friends.

and I'm not willing to kind of fork over the whole bill. And then for families, and specifically like brothers, sisters, it becomes an impasse because then it's kind of this thing where it's like, I'm most loyal to the family and all this stuff, right? And it goes like the other direction. So features have been built into the payment apps just to make it easy so people don't have to fight. It's like, oh, we'll just use a feature. And they go like, oh, okay. And they just blame it on the app, right? Yeah. Well, one thing I've found here is

that I realized is that the person who is coordinating the event, let's say, 请客, right? It's like, let's go out for dinner. Let's go out to this bar. Let's go whatever and get a whole bunch of friends out.

they're the ones usually responsible. Yeah, because they're the ones picking the restaurants. They're the ones inviting the person. Usually the person who invites everyone else out and picks the place to meet and eat. In Chinese culture, they're usually the ones to pay for the bill as well. It's the same thing with birthday. Oh, it's my birthday. I'm having a birthday celebration. Come out to celebrate my birthday. The birthday person pays for everything. Yeah, yeah. I had to get used to that when I first got here because in America, everyone pays for the...

birthday boy. Yeah. Right. They pay for the birthday. It's their person. It's their birthday. They're not paying. We're going to cover his portion. They cannot pay for anything. But in China, usually the birthday person is, you know, a sign of faith. Like I've brought you all out to celebrate me. Therefore, I'm going to, I'm going to treat you guys all. Right. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. And both make sense. Totally. Like, they both make complete sense to me. Like, they're two complete opposites, but they both make equal sense to me. And I think it's cool. I actually think this is a privilege of being, like, a dual culture person where, like, you know, we're rooted in the U.S. We have, I mean, we're, like, as American as they, I think, as they get in a lot of areas. Yeah.

But yet we have this cultural Chinese heritage. We've lived in China for a while. And I can feel like both sides. Because in America, I could totally see it, right? You go out.

have like an awesome time and then it's like celebrating you and everybody's like oh this this dude's pretty cool he's not he's not toxic masculine like this guy we do it right and then in china it's like no it's like hey i appreciate you as my friends like thank you like you know i'm not that likable of a person i'm kind of an sometimes

But you decided to come. I'm going to pay you to come. I'm going to pay you to come. Well, I've invited you guys out. Right. You know? Like, you guys are out here because of me. Therefore, I'm going to treat you. Yeah. Which makes complete sense to me. You're the only ones that would show up. Like, I had, like, two people at my last birthday party, you know? It was, like, me and my wife. I had to pay her. That's funny. Yeah. Well, amongst the three of us... Okay, let's, like, throw this out there, right? So that the...

everyone can get to know us a little bit better. So what's our reputation in terms of like our groups? Like out of the three of us, who's considered the most generous or not generous? Is there, you know, like what's our reputation in the industry? - In the industry? - No, I mean like-- - I mean, that's not up for us to say. That's up for you, us to say about each other, isn't it? - Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like what's our reputation?

Fucking cheap motherfuckers. Cheap as fuck. You mean as American-born Chinese? I haven't paid for a dinner in about... Or you mean Eric, Justin, and Harry? I haven't paid for a dinner in about 17 years. I don't even get a home ball. I'm actually the cheapest. What the fuck is going on? It's an inside joke. I don't know. I think we're all fairly the same. Everyone just takes turns, but I think in general, Justin is definitely the most generous. Yeah.

No, no. That's what I've always enjoyed about kind of like... Being wealthy? Being filthy rich. No, that's what I've always enjoyed about kind of like our dynamic here in China. It's like...

I feel like there's less pressure when it comes to like footing the bill, right? Because there is that dynamic, like, oh, it's like, I don't know, like, oh, if you're going to, if you're going to like chink, like that person's going to pay the bill. I've always felt it uncomfortable and almost, it's weird because I think to probably a lot of expats and foreigners, like they would probably like, they think it's so normal, right?

But me, because like, as you were saying, Eric, like we kind of lived on both sides of the culture for so long, even like growing up in the States, like with my parents and how they would interact with other like Chinese, you know, friends that they had, even in America, they'd be fighting over the bill, right? Like, so I've always, I saw that growing up. And so I was very normalized to that kind of behavior growing up. So when I became of age and when we would go out,

especially amongst like close friends because like when you're with a whole bunch of people and a lot of them are just strangers or people you don't know that well you probably be more inclined to go like go Dutch and everyone kind of puts the bill but like if it's just us it's like oh yeah let's just take terms take turns putting the bill it always seemed very I don't know what the word for it is but it seemed kind of kind of almost killed the mood

to spend however long. - Calculating. - Yeah, after a good time, right? After a good time, everyone's drinking, like hang out, you're bonding. And then you're spending the next 15 minutes trying to calculate what each person had. Oh, was this drink yours? Did you order that? - Oh yeah, that's the toughest. - Yeah, because some people are very detailed. Some people are a little more easier. They're just like, okay, there's three of us, let's just split it three ways. That's the easiest way, right? But then there are some people

that are very detailed. Like, okay, who ordered the side of fries? Oh, that was you? Okay, that was $3.50. So I got to add that to your point. It's like literally line by line who ordered what. And that to me was almost like really alien. And the final amount was never matching. No, and then it complicates the whole thing. It's just too complicated. And that was always very strange to me amongst friends. Amongst strangers, I get it fine. But amongst friends, like that...

always seemed so alien to me and always made me kind of uncomfortable. In China, I think my experience, and I have a very narrow, like, community of friends and

But I think like the intersection of the culture here and the norms with the people that I spend time with, and it's been not an issue. It's actually been quite like easy. Like you don't, you rarely meet people that you feel like, oh, didn't like pull their weight and all that kind of stuff. Whereas like sometimes maybe back home, I'm like, you know, there's always like one or two people. I also feel like it's a function of privilege because I,

I think it's harder when you're trying to make every dollar or every whatever meet. So I think there's that aspect of it. What's your general philosophy? So let's zoom out a little bit and say, okay, what's your general philosophy in terms of hanging out with friends, gifts, and what kind of financial...

uh, burden that you kind of take on for that? What's your general philosophy? But I don't know, like, how do you answer that? That's like too general. Like what, is there a specific kind of question in there? Philosophy on what? Okay. I'll, I'll share like one sentence on my general philosophy. I won't go too much into detail. So if I'm going out with some really, really good friends, I'm having a good time. Then, um,

And I'm lucky to be able to generally do this because we're not going to fucking Michelin star restaurants. I do this rarely. I'll just pay the bill. I'll just be, I don't give a shit. I'll just be like, I'm fucking paying the bill. I don't care. But it's not even like any kind of, it's more of a reflex. It's just like, let's not overthink this one. I just really enjoy my time. And then let's do it, right? Now, if I'm in another meal and there's someone who's

And they're like, they're aggressive about that. And they're like, I just had such a great time. Like, I want to fucking take the, and then I'm like, okay, cool, fine. Right. So I think it just comes around and goes around. But ultimately in my mind, I try to create a little bit of balance where like, I'm trying to give a little bit more than I'm taking.

Like when you net out all the accounts over like a period of years where like if you ask people like, okay, is this guy a cheapskate or is he generous? I'm erring on the side of generosity because that's not how I make my money. The way I make my money is through many other different ways. It's not through like not paying for meals. So that's my general philosophy. Yeah, I would think that we're all pretty much aligned on that.

Um, because like, yeah, like, especially when you're with good friends, like what you said, what goes around comes around. Right. Because like, you know, you're with people that aren't just going to freeload and they're going to make a mental note. Like, oh, he got this bill this time. Like, because this is what I do. If you get this bill next time, I make a mental note of that. Right. In my heart. And I'm like, okay, next time, you know, it's on me. Right. And it's like, and because you know, there will be a next time.

These aren't just one-off occasions. If it's amongst good friends, there will inevitably be a next time. And then so next time another person gets it and you feel comfortable and reassured that you're with people who are also making those mental notes of like, oh, okay, he got it. Okay, let me note that and I'll get it next time. I think that's pretty general.

rule of thumb right uh just keeping a mental note but not necessarily writing down an excel sheet you know like just get an idea not like what eric does but uh show us your checklist of how many meals we've paid as a function over time and and and and price of the meals he has a whole graph he's like he's like you guys you guys joke but uh actually yeah

- No, but I actually, I do have a- - That's not true. But I, okay, well, I'll add one quick thing to that. I do try to err on the side of generosity. And the reason why is that I'm not always a person that deals well with like administrative things, like gift giving, for instance, right? Like if people have children, you're supposed to give fucking gifts, that kind of stuff.

I'm actually quite... I acknowledge I'm poor at that kind of stuff. Like, I don't just...

I'm not good at taking the time to do that, et cetera, et cetera. So when I do have a chance to be generous, I probably over-index a little bit just to kind of take care of that. But here's one thing I want to add. I'm hedging a little bit. I want to add something. I don't know if it's going to help alleviate some of your anxieties. I do have anxiety over this. I just had a wedding. I know. And everyone was really generous. But just listen. But I just know that like- But just listen. And it wasn't even open bar.

Oh my god. It was open bar. What are you talking about? What do you mean open bar? That was not called open bar. Do you know that I ripped those mofos like orifices? Like you understand how they're like... I crushed them. After the event, I fucking crushed them. What, you went apeshit on them? I was like... I basically said... I talked to them, right? And I was like, hey...

Well, first of all, we were grateful because they did a pretty good job overall, right? Oh, yeah. Overall. It was nice. The service was good. The place was nice. And the food. Yeah, the food was good. But the beverages were... Like, the food was, like, actually overwhelmingly, like... No, but overall, it was a great time. Yeah. The hotel did a good... Great stuff. It's just that you did not do open bars. So that was the only... Yeah. And so... So I said... I was trying to hold myself back because I was grateful because, like, you know, we had to redo it. We all got COVID. We had to re... Change the date. Yeah.

So I said, there's two Erics right now. There's one that's absolutely grateful that you handled a life event in such a great way. Like you did amazing work. Like the hotel. They were really accommodating. Yeah, everyone. I mean, like there was so much. The food was good. I got positive feedback on the food. I thought it was good. Yeah, it was good. And it was so much food. Like when we all left, like we could have had like three more weddings, right? Yeah.

And I said, but there's another Eric that is absolutely livid because your beverage service, right, was fucking like shit. Like literally like we had to go behind the bar ourselves to get water and all this stuff. Yeah. And I like, you made it, made us feel like. Water. That even though it was all like, um.

or whatever, but it wasn't. And I'm like, but that's so weird because the food, like the food is like expensive shit. Because that's where they lose the most money. Yeah. It's the alcohol. And like, there was so much fucking food. Like there were literally, when we left, you look at the tables and it was like, oh, no one ate anything, but we had eaten, you know? So I like, I ripped them orifices. I was so pissed. Because the more I thought about it, the fact that Anne went back and she couldn't even get water. She had like, there was like boiled water. It was like hot water. She couldn't even drink water. I was like,

So I ripped them apart. So I acknowledge that. And they remember you now. They remember you. Yeah. For next time. We won't say. You are banned for events there. We won't say which hotel it was. It was a major hotel in the middle of the city. But anyways. Motel 168? Yes. Yeah. No, that was, they had a, I couldn't afford their package. I couldn't afford Motel 168 at all.

No, actually, honestly, Justin and I... No, it was Chen Ji. We walked in together. It was the same hotel I did my quarantine in. I was like, wow. I was like, hey, can you give me a deal? I did my quarantine here. No, it was nice. Definitely, it was nice. But Justin and I were like, yo, you know, when you were rehearsing and stuff like that, Justin was like, yo...

let's hit the bar. Let's get some like whiskeys or something. Let's get loosened up for this, right? And then the dude's like, no, we got beer for you. Like, fuck. I drank beer and I got gout because of this. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you gotta, yeah, you can blame that on me and a little bit of

I won't blame Ann, but you know, Ann's not going to be like, I just want to have fucking cocktails, right? No, we're joking. We're joking. Of course we're joking. Would it have been better with a lot of cocktails? Of course it would have been better. Fuck.

What kind of question is that? Oh, would it have been better with an open bar? Of course. Dude, it would have gotten too loose, and then it wouldn't have been good. No, it would have been a blast. It would have been loose. Oh, that's good. You want a wedding to be loose. I feel like people are a little too uptight. Because people, like you remember the dance? The whole dancing was kind of a little awkward, right? Right, right, right, right. Because no one wanted to get up and dance. Oh, but Justin chanted out. Justin chanted out. Fuck you, Hallie. Fuck you so much for that. Fuck you so much for that, Hallie. Do you remember what I did to him?

He called me out. He's like, and now it's Justin. Justin, get up and get everyone to dance. So it was just me alone in the middle of the dance floor like an asshole. No. You're like, come on, guys. Like doing my awkward dance moves, trying to get everyone else to dance. And everyone was just looking at me, sitting down. Oh, God.

Like, who is this asshole? But that was not the... That was so embarrassing. But on a more positive note, that wasn't the theme of the wedding, right? Like, that wasn't going to be the highlight. Like, in a way, that helped us kind of maintain the...

The theme of the wedding. What was the theme of the wedding? Just like control and like Eric's like rehabilitation. What? Dude. Join us on this festive romantic day where we wed Ann and Eric. We don't even remember the end of your wedding. And holy matrimony of control. We don't even remember your wedding. But that's good. Like I want my guests to not remember the wedding because I want them to be like, oh, that was so crazy. How did I even get home?

Were you really that drunk? Well, I think it's just different philosophies on what a wedding should be like, right? And like, look, I'm not trying to be a dick. There's no right or wrong relationship.

Again, I'll say this again. We had a blast at your wedding. It was a beautiful affair. We're not going to Bar Rouge. The venue was awesome. Completely losing control. But usually when you invite your friends to a wedding, you want them to have a lot of fun. It's like a party. It's a celebration. People get liquored up. They dance. They let loose. Usually that's what it is.

You guys would not. But for you, it's more about control. That was back in the day. I love that keyword, though. It is. It is. And listen to the podcast. Like, you don't think that

I mean, come on. Anne hates us right now. Like, if she's listening to this right now, she's like, Jesus, these ungrateful bastards. No, it was good. It was good. It was like, we got everyone home on time. It snowed the next day. It was a nice, auspicious moment. Yeah, that's what you want from a wedding. Everyone being getting home on time. Yeah, exactly. Control. Control. Control and everyone getting home on time. That's what you expect from a great wedding. You want an epic wedding? That would be like, dude...

Like for the listeners, just imagine if anyone's seen hangover one, two or three, that could have, that's like the other result. If we had not achieved a controlled and predictable result, it would have been like, we'd be like in fucking. There's nothing more joyous and romantic than a controlled and predictable result. Exactly. Yeah.

Like, if we woke up in, like, Chiang Mai with tattoos on our face, I would be like, oh, fuck. That would be the most memorable wedding of all time. But he wouldn't have been wedded after that. And the sad thing is that, like, it's not that, like, it's actually when we watch Hangover, we're like, oh, we're lucky that we don't do that. Because it is in our... It's a possibility. It's in the genes. Yeah. Yeah.

It's not outside of our behavior. It's not completely outside of the behavior. Oh, boy. It's a new year, man. Turn in the page. That's like Justin... So, wait, hold on. For the last three years, as you've been studiously studying the top podcasters, Rogan and... That's the best I had. That's the best I could do. He's like...

It's a new year, man. That is what he's learned. Ladies and gentlemen, that is the pinnacle of podcasting. The pinnacle of podcasting. This is a masterclass. That's called a segue, by the way. This is a masterclass. This is a section on segue. It is a new year. It is a new year. Oh, man. We should record the intro. Yeah. All right, guys. Love you. Let's turn the page and move forward and make this year a good one. Make it count, guys. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.

Alright, I'm Justin. I'm Howie. And I'm Eric. Alright. Be good and be well. Peace.