#119. Everything Everywhere
01:26:26 Share

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying this show, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna double up on that. You guys gotta comment. Leave some comments.

What? I don't know. I'm just being stupid. I don't know. I'm just being stupid. What the fuck did you... What was that? I'm just being stupid. Okay. Today, it's me and Howie, and we got an interesting one today. It's a little bit like the film that won the Oscar. Everything, everywhere, all at once. That's true. That's true. Everything, everywhere, all at once.

Not necessarily the film, although we do talk about the film. And the role of Asians in the media currently and the way I feel about it. You'll hear about that. Yeah. So we talked about a lot of juicy topics on this one. We talked about video game addiction. We talked about AI and technology. We kind of went on a rant, a few rants on this one. Get very passionate. Is it really we though? No.

Yeah. I think it's you. Oh, don't put this on me. You went on your own rant. Okay. You went on your own rant towards the end. Who's the one that went off about the whole American and China media coverage? Okay. Me, me. I did talk very honestly about a lot of subjects that maybe aren't always wise to talk about all the time. The whole narrative pushing and what's real and what's fake these days.

And you went on a rant about the movie that won all these Oscars. It's not a small rant. You went on quite a rant yourself, okay? Give yourself some credit. We talked about a bunch of other things, too. So, without further ado, here we go! I'm still living in a love now. I'm supposed to be the right guy. I'm pulling what she wants now.

I have not been able to watch anything. As a matter of fact, I haven't turned on my TV in my living room that I used to watch shows and movies on every day in two months. Since the babies got home. And part of it is, one, is because I don't want

to wake them, you know, if they're sleeping. The second one would be if they're in the room, I don't want them watching the TV. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't want the kids like looking at the screen. Exactly. Whenever I notice the baby looking at me, I'm like, I put my phone away because I don't want him to see me always looking at my phone and for that somehow to seep in. And it reminds me of one of our former guests, Dino. He said, he's like, you know, kids don't do what you say, they do what you do.

And we're fucking on screens all the time. Like that's not changing anytime soon. It's the same idea of like a recent conversation with my wife, video games. She says that we will never introduce video games to the kids. I'm like, what? No, I don't believe in that. I think video games are fine for them to play and also fine tune their motor skills with because I grew up on video games. Have you been fantasizing about playing video games together with your kids? Of course. I fantasize.

I fantasize that. Well, I also fantasize them watching Bleach together or whatever, you know? Or I can't wait to show them things that I like. Yeah, like watch a basketball game together for the same team. I said that, yeah. Yeah, watch sports and we're both like rooting. Yeah. Not both, but you know. Yeah. All of us.

All of us pounding back some beers together watching the game. Just something, you know, like doing things together that you're into. Even music, like I can't wait to share music and for them to understand. So 100%. And so back to the video games idea, I don't feel like that's a bad thing. I think it's about how much exposure they have, control.

Same thing with TV, cartoons, I think it's just about control. I think it's about having a certain amount of time allocated and have that become a habit where they're expecting only so many hours per week or whatever. Well, that's why I'm really actually supportive of China's laws, new laws with social media. The under 18. Yeah, under 18. There's a time limit. I think that's really good.

Right. And that makes it easier on us. Cause like, then like takes the blame off of us and be like, Oh, that's the law. There's nothing we can do about that. You know what I mean? Then we're not the bad guys anymore. It's such a fine line. Just think about what you just said right there. Right. And then if you were to go back 15 years, 20 years, would you be saying the same thing? Probably not, but only because I wouldn't have the awareness of, or I wouldn't maybe understand the,

all the negative impacts that social media and screen times have. Because as a young kid, when we were growing up, I mean, there wasn't really much social media. Like, I mean, like, when we were growing up,

Like we've mentioned this previously too. Like we grew up in a time before the internet. Yeah. So we were more like actual activities, like outdoors. We would leave the house and do things outside. We'd have to, otherwise we'd be bored. Yeah. Well, we played video games. Okay. So we definitely played video games.

But that was about it. But not to the extent of the way video games are now because they were so much simpler back then. Or you beat a game and then it's done. There's no like these RPGs or are they even called RPGs now? Where it's like you're living in a whole world and like you have a second life, like literally a second life. Limitless boundaries. In that virtual world where you're meeting people, you're spending money, you're buying things. You have this whole personality that's

and life in this virtual world that kids have now in these crazy games. For us, it was never that immersive. It was like Mario Kart. That's something right there I'd never really thought of. So back then when we were playing games, like you said, I mean, I'm just going to rattle off a couple of famous games at that point. You do it. Go for it. So let's say a game like...

Resident Evil. Right? Resident Evil just came out. I remember playing on PlayStation 1 and being like, oh, damn, this is crazy and all that stuff, right? But yeah, you play, you give like 10 hours into the game or whatever, and it's done. Right? Wait, wait, 10 hours in one sitting? No, I'm saying in general. Oh, like total. Like 15 hours or whatever it is, total. Like total. Total. Like lifespan of the game. Yeah, usually I'll put like a good one to two hours for a sitting. Okay.

You know what I mean? And then I'll get tired. I'm out. But what I'm saying is that once the game is done, whether you can beat it or you get stuck at a level, that's it. You're not upgrading the costumes. You're not unlocking new levels. You're not adding in new stories. It is what it is. The game is the game, and that's it. You can play Metroid. You can play Super Mario Brothers. All those famous titles are...

You play it, it's done. Not until World of Warcraft came out in 2005 or whatever that year was, where it was a massively multiplayer online role-playing game where the world was vast and the levels kept going up and... It was endless. Endless. The game doesn't end. People still play it today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Today, 15 years later, over 15, almost 20 years later, people are still playing that game today. Yeah. I mean...

Well, that is actually, I'd never thought about that. That is, I think if there is one fundamental difference between the games of the past versus the games now is the games we played had a definitive end.

Self-encapsulated, right? Yes. Now there is no end to the game. There is literally no end to the game. You can't beat the game. Well, yes, there are games like that that have endings. But I'm saying the most popular games tend to have no end. There's no stopping to it. Yeah. And that's a huge difference. Well, it's also a combination of, I mean, it's a money-making machine, right? Video games now?

where, you know, you're putting in money in the game to, you know, for in-game currency to buy more chances to play, to get more, you know, character clothing or whatever the case may be to unlock more parts of the game, which has become a cash cow for this industry. And I don't see it changing anytime soon because the money is just too big. Well, you have to think about why people, because it's not just kids anymore, even adults, right, are like really invested in these games, right?

are putting in all this money into these games. You have to understand why. Like the people who are really into these games, which is a lot of them, they see it as just as important as anything in their like actual real lives. I've known friends growing up, and this was in college, that were addicted, like, you know, addicted to these games. One of them was World of Warcraft. Literally addicted to the point where he didn't leave his own apartment

For weeks. Weeks. I understand. Weeks. He stopped going to all his classes. He was failing out of school. He didn't give a shit. He was playing day in, day out, not getting any sleep, nothing. Peeing, like literally peeing into cups, like at his computer. And we had to have intervention. Like we had to like literally break down his door and find him and pull him out. Yeah.

Because he was just like, he was a mess. And that's not just him. Like, there's a lot of cases like this where they get so wrapped up where the game or their character and their existence in this game is more important than their actual real lives. And I've been on the edge of that. Like, I felt like I've been really invested into certain games. You know this, right? Yeah.

Like first-person shooter games, you know, famous one. Yeah. Call of Duty. I was so invested in it. So I didn't get all the way so bad. I ended up pulling myself out of it eventually. But I understand that temptation where that addiction, where your score or your performance in this game is more important than anything else anymore. Did I ever share with you my story? No.

With StarCraft? No. I never told you? No. All these years I've never told you? No. I have a dark period in my life that not many people know about. Really? Oh, yeah. Okay. So what you were just saying right there, I 100% understand because I went through it. So real quickly, I broke up with my band, right? And I went into a depression. Yeah, I know that was a dark period for you. Dark period. And part of it was StarCraft. I was playing this game called StarCraft, right? Which is a PC game.

And you have like, it's like a strategy game and you have like clans. You form clans. It's also like a huge, huge game. Huge game, huge game. And so I have my clan that I have formed with some other people. And somehow I became leader of the clan, one of the leaders.

And I took it so seriously because literally my band just broke up. I was like, I had dead end jobs. You know what I mean? I was doing nothing. Like your leader, your leadership in this clan defined you. Yes. In this moment, it defined who you were. Yes. And that's, that's where I can relate because it became so addictive because the clan was doing pretty well and like in the rankings and stuff like that. So, I mean, I was on all day and night, all day and night to the point where my legs became numb. Like I had like problems with my, with my legs.

and I'd be drunk. And so I'd be drinking at home, playing, you know, and then my friends would ask me to go out, hang out with them, and I would reject them. It got to the point where I stopped answering. So I just, yeah, I wouldn't even look. And so it would be like a week goes by, my friends, like all these messages, and

To the point where they came to my apartment and, like, knocked on the door to get in to be like, Howie, what the fuck? That's exactly what I was saying with my friend. Like, he didn't respond to us. We had to literally break down his door. Because I ignored them. Yeah. Right? So I disappeared, you know, in their eyes. And they wanted to put me into AA because, just because my alcoholism, because I had bottles of Maker's Mark next to me. Wow. And then StarCraft. Yeah.

And so it got to the point where it was so bad that finally I got out of this darkness. I told my clanmates that I'm retiring. And they put up a website in dedication to me. Because I was so, like... I was there on 24 hours a day, seven days a week. You know? Like, they were trying to crowdfund your support or something. Yeah. And they were like, you know, sad to see you go kind of thing. You know what I mean? But, like, I had to do it. I had to do it. And I relate because you become... You have a different...

persona online and if that persona has any ounce of credibility in any way it's like real life yeah all right so for me there's real people at the other end of those you know so for me as the leader one of the leaders of the clan and the main leader actually i would people came up to me and like would kiss my ass and and i was never like a dick or anything that i was like very like i was a very fair leader

But you know what I mean? Like, it became my identity, and I forgot about real life. And at that moment, after I quit that, I never played again. I just stopped it, like, casually once or twice, but that's it. Never again. Why? Out of fear? Like, that you would sink back in? No, because knowing... No, I'm not afraid anymore. It's just I don't want to be reminded of that dark time. You know what I mean? It was just so dark.

Yeah, and so I've never gotten to that. Like, you see me, I don't buy consoles. I play mobile games a little bit here and there, but that's about it. Yeah, you do. But I think the common... I don't know, I could be generalizing, but I think from what I've seen, the common thing is, especially when the player has something in their real lives where they're deeply upset about and are unhappy with, they find...

They find a safe place or they find happiness. It's an escape. Yeah, it's an escape. Exactly. It's an escape. And especially if you're doing well in this game. Yeah. And you're getting this positive feedback for doing good in this game. Which as human nature, you're always seeking. Yeah. And it's not like a computer robot telling you you're good. It's other real online players. Yeah. Real voices. Yeah. It becomes just as real as real life. And if not for many people who are unhappy with certain things...

It becomes happier for them to be there than to exist in reality. So here's my question. With the way society is moving forward with technology, AI, robotics, all that stuff, VR, AR, et cetera. Yeah. It could be said that within X amount of years, we would be living in this virtual world, right? Mm-hmm.

It could very become reality that that virtual world is better than the real world, right? It can be said. Then who's to say that if you were to invest yourself into that virtual world, that's worse than living a real world? Like, honestly, just break it down. No, that's a fair debate. I mean, that's a fair debate, right? Because I guess it's just a bias, right?

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Like, if the relationships are true for you, why is that any more unreal than real life, right? Is that what you're trying to say? Yeah, yeah. Because you're going to have, on one side of the spectrum, you're going to have people come, like, that's loser mentality. How could you buy into something that's not real? I mean, reality is the life that we live now. How could you put yourself into a virtual world and invest so much of yourself, right? Yeah.

What makes the quote-unquote real world any more real than the virtual world, right? If you're dealing with real people in the virtual world as well. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't have a good answer for that. And, you know, another point of conversation, I guess, that can be made is, like, I mean, ultimately, if you're happier in the virtual world, like, truly happier...

Why is that wrong then? Right? Well, let's form a debate. Okay. Try to stand on that side. I'm just curious. I'm a bad person to be on this side because... Okay. Because you're for it. No, no, no, no. I'm not for it. I just... Look, this goes on to a bigger topic, but nothing's real anymore. Nothing is real anymore. Like when I say the real world, I say it out of habit. It's a reflex.

But even the real world, what's real? Because even in the quote-unquote real world, how do most of us communicate? Not really through face-to-face anymore. We're communicating still virtually. We're still communicating through social media. We're communicating many of the times indirectly through social media. And a lot of these communications are completely fake.

whether it's Chinese social media or Instagram or YouTube, how much of that shit is real? How much of these pictures you're seeing are real? Like we had a chat about chat GBT. AI, a lot of these accounts are artificial intelligence. Like nothing is real anymore. Have you seen the new...

So you know OnlyFans, right? Okay. I've never used it, but I know about it. Sure. No, I've honestly never. I would like to use it. Is it still around? Didn't they have like a big scandal? Well, okay. So what I was going to get at was recently, I think it was a couple weeks ago, some user uploaded AI-generated

KOL on OnlyFans and people were starting to like pay up to follow this person. It was like a hot girl or something? Hot girls. Like a group of girls that look similar. And they're like hotter than any girls you've ever seen, right? Well, they look real. I mean, they look real. It's AI generated.

all ai generate they're not real people yeah and only for like the the super sleuths that were able to detect that it was fake because of of like you know a small border of the hip or whatever it was right that got called out that it was fake and then once it got called out then there was this debate right it's like oh shit you know people are using ai now to like parent you know parent yeah so he's like you know

scamming people for money and stuff like that. But then you have all these other random people come out and say, well, is it a scam if they buy into these AI images of women and they get off on it? Is that a scam still then? Because they're still, like, if you never told them it was fake, Yeah.

They're still into it. Yeah. So that becomes a debate, right? So they have sides, two sides of a coin. You have one side being like, well, it's fucked up. You should only give the truth. You should only give real people. And you got the other side be like, well, it's all about the person who's digesting the user, right? It's all about the user. If the user, if there is a user base that is accepting of AI generated pornography, let it be if they're willing to pay. Yeah. Right.

Well, I think the difference is they don't know about it, right? Like if you know, okay, this is AI-generated porn,

Which is fine. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Then that's fine. And people will, even if you told people, I'm sure there'll still be a huge population of people willing to pay for it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like with like hentai and anime, right? Yeah. Like that's fake. That's animation. People know that going in. They still get off on it. Yeah. I think it's like the not, they were- Being transparent about it. Yeah, being transparent. Like they weren't told the truth.

I think that's the real thing. But you don't have to go on OnlyFans. We don't even have to talk about porn. If you go on Instagram right now. Oh, the fake KOLs? There are so many accounts that are AI accounts. Oh, yeah. A lot. They look real. They look real. You can kind of tell because they kind of look too perfect. But at the same time, you look at some of the regular people that upload their photos, that's a little too perfect. Yeah. Because every freaking photo has a filter on it. Yeah.

So that's my point, man. Nothing is fucking real anymore. So I think the line that we could used to draw between, let's say, the virtual world or like online games or whatever versus, quote unquote, the real world, it used to be a clear line.

I think that line has faded now, and it's faded more than I think a lot of us realize. So then are you for this future of virtuality, or are you against it?

I don't even like putting it that way, to be honest, because that's pointless. Because it's going to happen regardless, whether we're for it or not. Well, yes, it's going to happen regardless, but are you going to be fighting it or are you going to be going with it? Well, what do you mean fighting it? You're going to start a rebellion against the New World Order? What are you going to do? There's no reason. Am I happy about it going in that direction?

Probably no. Like, I'm not happy that the line between the two realities has faded. I'm not happy about that. Because, and I'm not just talking about like AI generated accounts and KOLs. I'm not just talking about that. I'm talking about literally everything, man. The information that we're fed, none of it is real anymore. We never really, really dug deep into this thought. So let's just make a guess, right? Okay.

The way that the world is going towards right now, I mean, where do you think society is going to end up being like? Because, I mean, there's many facets. Right now, we're just touching up on AI, right? And virtual worlds. But that's not to say, I mean, other technologies that would change the way society is run, such as, let's say, abundance, right? So, let's say, food, healthcare, all that stuff becomes easily accessible to everyone in this world, right? Yeah.

In combination of all the other stuff we're talking about, what do you think is going to happen to society? I think I break it down into different timelines. So there's the short term, and then there's the long term, and then there's the very long term. I think in the short term, with the advancements in AI and these types of technologies, I think it's going to do more positive than negative in the short term. In what way?

I think a lot of technologies and advancements and a lot of crucial fields will be used. I think like medicine as one, right? I think it will streamline, just not even just the medicine, but it will streamline a lot of processes and it will make a lot of processes more efficient where it can be more effective for more people. And if we go back to kind of- But how would corporations make money off of that then?

Oh, they'll find a way. They'll find a way. You know what I mean? We don't need to worry about them. They'll find a way. For sure. They'll find a way. I'm not worried about that. I do feel, though, advancements. Because think about the trend with technology. Again, going back to the medicine example, it has helped. Even within the last few hundred years. A hundred years.

We are in such a better place. Society is in such a better place with these things because of advancements in technology. So in the short term, I think that trend will continue with technology, but I think eventually... Sure, but also without having actual statistics in front of me, I'm just doing the eyeball test right now. I mean, we're also living in a world where medical treatment, medicine, all that stuff...

is more than it ever has been in the history of mankind. I'm not, yes, they go hand in hand. It depends what country you're talking about. Well, I'm saying like the amount of medicine that one must take, the amount of therapy, not mental therapy, even physical therapy or any type of healthcare is because of, you know, the advancement of the healthcare system. But that's also from a very Western perspective.

Is it, though? Yeah, I think so. I think if you talk to a lot of people here who do Lao TCM, Chinese traditional medicine, I don't think that's a... Each treatment costs money. Yeah, so what are you talking about? Are you talking about it's become more expensive or people are more dependent on these medicines now? So what I'm trying to say is that you were saying that through technology, health treatment, healthcare has become so much better. People live longer lives and all that stuff, right? Mm-hmm.

On board, 100%. But this goes back to what I was saying about how the corporations make money off of that. They go hand in hand, right? So back then, you know, maybe you don't have as much treatment, you don't have as much medicine, technology is not up there in terms of healthcare.

They're also, you know, you're not paying for this treatment because it doesn't exist. You're not paying for this medicine because it doesn't exist. But with the advent of this technology, they found ways to maybe, maybe what I'm trying to get at is maybe there are solutions or of cures to major diseases to many things that maybe we don't, we can't even imagine.

One-stop shop. Bam. You're good. Maybe there is something like that or could have been something like that, but it's not getting ruled out. Well, I'm not even going there because that's like you're talking about like a miracle drug, right? Something like that, like an invention like that or like a cure for cancer. Yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah. No, I get you on that point. I'm saying overall technology...

is going to improve medicine. It's going to improve the quality or the efficiency and speed of care, I think, in the short term. Even in the long term, what I think is going to happen, I don't think... So my point, my other point, I think more addressing to what you're talking about is, I also don't think the status quo is going to change, meaning that people who can afford treatment will get the treatment and

Meanwhile, there's still going to be a lot of people left behind, especially depending on what kind of country you're living in, running what kind of system, right? So if we take the United States, for example—

I don't see a revolution in healthcare there that all of a sudden free healthcare for everybody or affordable healthcare. I think the status quo is going to stay the same, except the people that can get treatment are going to get better treatment. That's what I'm saying. How funny is it that, because recently I'm looking at health insurance. How funny is it that if you're looking for international plans,

They're all like, well, if you want to include America, it's one choice. It's one price. If you include the rest of the world, but not including America, it's another choice. Exactly. But the fact that you include America, suddenly your premiums go up drastically. And only America. Only America. They single out America. Yeah, because America's so freaking fucked up. Yeah. Well, healthcare system is really fucked up. To this point. It's funny, right? Yeah, it's funny, but it's not at the same time, right? So it's like...

Okay, so if you look at the American system and you follow the money, like with any investigation, you follow the money and nine times out of 10, they'll lead you to what you're trying to look for. If you follow the money, the money in America flows to only two places, military, industrial complex, and pharmaceuticals. Those are the two biggest lobbies. Mm.

So that's where the money goes. So if you just simply follow the money, it will be very clear to you how the American systems run and who's really in power there. Who's really controlling the fucking things over there. And of course they want to profit and in other systems. And, you know, a lot of people have complaints, especially us, I think coming from the West, coming here in China.

You hear a lot of complaints about going to the public hospitals here in terms of the service. It's like going to the DMV. Pay first. You have to go to the hall. You have to go to the hall. It's like so many people, and it just is not a pleasant experience. Going to a hospital in the first case is not a pleasant experience, but it's especially unpleasant going to a public hospital here. It's like going to the DMV. I've almost said this.

But what people don't understand, or maybe some people do, is that for the population, one point however many billion people they have here now in China, you kind of have to have that system to make healthcare affordable to all.

So that's why you have to, you don't get the same service. You don't get one-on-one treatment from the doctor and your nice little waiting rooms. And you don't get to sit in the, you know, your own little bed and hospital room waiting for the doctor to come to you. You got to go find the doctor, right? You got to go run around from place to place. And you're waiting in line to go see the doctor. Wait in line. And these are these little things, these little

little like conveniences of life that we appreciated back then in the states but we don't have here necessarily unless you go to like a really high-end hospital here which is very expensive but it has to be this way to make health care affordable to all so but don't a lot of people here also discount the credibility a lot of the regular quote-unquote public doctors

Do they? I haven't heard that. I've heard it. I've heard it where, like, you know, they go to the doctor and they'll be like, I have this problem. They'll be like, they won't even ask questions. They'll be like, all right, just take this medicine and get the fuck out of here. You know what I mean? And like, don't you want to know? I know what's up. Just leave. Meanwhile, after they take the medicine, it doesn't get better. They have to go back again and then go through again. Then they'll start asking more details. Well, I don't see how that's any different than a lot of the Western doctors I've been to, too. You go in there, they give you a prescription of something and you go...

But what I do know is that, and this is from firsthand experience as well as from family members and people else I know, when they needed surgery, like top doctors, yeah, when they needed surgery, the best doctors here are in public hospitals or at least government-run hospitals because they've seen the most cases.

You have such a big population of people. They get to experience and treat and see so many cases. They got the reps in, let's say this, so to speak. Yeah. To the point they don't even have to ask you questions. I don't know. So I don't know, man. I'm not... I don't know. It's a hard discussion to say which one is necessarily better. But what you can say is...

that more people can get treated here now whether that treatment is top-end treatment or not where in the states there are people literally that can't get treated well because purely because of financial costs yeah i i have told this story to people here and they're always like what um yeah you just don't go to the doctor i mean you don't go to the doctor unless your arm is falling off your you know you you have something that's like life-threatening

Like if I had a fever, I don't go to a doctor. I take medicine. I just take over-the-counter stuff, you know, and I treat myself. But here I remember it's like you have a little stomach ache, I'm going to see a doctor. You know, you have a little cold, I'm going to go see a doctor. So it's just like, it's just different mentality, I think, you know, going to see a doctor. Because part of the reason why you don't go see a doctor so much is because of the cost.

Especially for those if you weren't on some sort of full-time position where you have health benefits that are taken care of by your employer. If you had an emergency, you have to pay for the ambulance. The ambulance costs some cases up to $2,000 US per ride. Who the hell can afford that? So people, I've had people say to me, like, yeah, I literally said, oh, the ambulance is coming? Tell them not to.

I'll find a way to get to the hospital, you know? Wait, this is here? No, no, no, the States. Oh, the States. I'm sorry. Let me clarify. I'm talking about the States. I don't know. What were we talking about, though? We jumped around a little bit. Yeah, nothing's real. I'm trying to backtrack. Nothing's real. We got to the hospitals. How do we get to hospitals? Okay, we started talking about pharmaceuticals. Oh, you're talking about AI, and I was giving the example. I think in the short term, it would help medicine and healthcare, things like that.

I was talking about technology. Yeah, because what I was on about was that there's a lot of experts saying that in the future, healthcare treatment is going to be so easily attainable to everybody because costs go down because of robotics, because of whatever technology. That becomes attainable. Even cures and AI comes up with cures through raw processing of data.

You turned Southern real quick right there. Yeah. Okay. And I just, I don't know. I just have a thought that, I mean, if history says anything, corporations are going to have some sort of say in this. Of course. You know? And it's not going to be available to everybody. It's not going to be attainable to everybody. It's not going to have one-stop cure for everything. But that's not what I'm talking about. But I get you. Okay? Yeah. I'm not trying to...

But that wasn't what I was talking about. I wasn't saying, oh, AI is going to... It's going to increase the quality of care and efficiency of care. I think that's already getting without affecting changing the status quo. There's not going to be this big revolution all of a sudden. Everyone is going to be fine. But you have futurists saying that. You have futurists saying that it's going to become that. Healthcare is going to become that. Food is going to be abundant. And you're going to have... Nobody's going to be needing food anymore. Right.

But I feel like that's that not to me that it's it's just I'm very capitalistic Yeah, we live in a capitalistic world any extremes on either end. I don't believe it I don't think this this is not what history has proven to be and yeah like you say corporations are gonna hijack everything and This goes back to our conversation with Charles about like AI and his fear of AI and I get it I get that fear and

My more immediate fear is how corporations are going to start exploiting us. And I know you guys were ripping on me like, they already are. They already are. Yes, I agree. They already are. It's going to get a lot worse. And a few new articles have came out since our discussion with Charles about ChatGPT that have come out since then about...

How AI and especially, you know, things like chat GPT are spreading misinformation. Yep. So that's exactly what I was talking about when I was saying exploit us. How fewer and fewer people are going to have control of these technologies and sway, influence what we believe, what we think, our reality, our perception of reality. It all starts there. It all starts with misinformation.

spreading shit. And we're, I think we're in a really bad place already in this world with that. I see it and it drives me fucking insane because I feel like I'm the only person that sees it that way. And I wish, I really truly wish I didn't. It's like being unplugged from the matrix. I want to be plugged back in, man.

I want to be plugged back in. I want to enjoy my stakes. You know? I want to enjoy it. I want to enjoy this world. But I feel like I've been unplugged and I've seen behind the curtains. And maybe I'm delusional, right? You're delusional. Maybe I'm the fucked up one. Maybe I'm wrong, right? I'll be the first to admit that. But I don't feel like I am. And I've seen...

The masses of people believe in narratives that I believe are simply untrue. And it drives me insane. It drives me insane the way the herd is going. Yeah. I mean, it's scary. It's really scary. We can even use ourselves as an example. Do you remember a few episodes ago, Be a Man?

And I brought up the idea of toxic masculinity. And you're like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, oh, everybody's talking about this. And you're like, who's everybody? But to me, it's everybody because 70% of the content is getting pushed to me because I watched a couple of

you know, videos about it. It's the algorithm, man. Yeah. Next thing you know, it's like, oh, everybody's talking about it. This is the thing. Yeah. And then unless you talk to somebody that's outside of that circle, you're going to feel like that's the world you live in. Yeah. Meanwhile, it might not be, right? It might not be. But I feel for certain things they are, man. I don't know. I just feel like, I don't know if I want to give specific examples because I don't want to...

This is part of what drives me insane is to speak out, I think, about these things. Makes you not only a target, but because I think the simplest way I can put it is, I think, especially with the advancements in technology, the world and the people in this world are going to become more and more brainwashed. And maybe we all already are.

- At least to some degree. - To some, I agree. - Like we are, we all are to some degree. - 100%. - Yeah, we have to be self-aware about that, right? - Yes. - But I think it's gonna get worse. And I think there's few people that practice self-awareness in trying to break out, at least doing their best. Maybe they're not as successful in it, but at least trying a little bit to break out of this brainwashed state and question things a little bit from all sides and all angles.

question truths that you've held so dear to think, well, maybe they're not so true. But I don't think that's most people. And I think we're all brainwashed. And I think we're going to get more and more brainwashed. And to my point about why it's scary to speak out about and give specific examples is I think some people I feel are so brainwashed that if you were to speak out against or what they believe,

or what the popular opinion is, and I'm putting air quotes with popular in terms of, is it really the popular opinion? At least it seems that way. It makes you hated, right? It enrages people. And we've given this example so many times on the show, let's say about China and how Western media portrays China. And for you to defend China in any way, all of a sudden those people attack you.

They say you're some CCP shill. They say you're brainwashed, right? It's insane. And you can notice these patterns with a lot of things. Yes. You definitely can notice patterns. Yeah. Patterns of, like, even when I was talking about the whole toxic masculinity, if you watch all the content that I was watching at that period of time,

the talking points were all the same, right? So for example, oh, wage gap, you know, men and women wage gap, right? The talking points and the examples of how the wage gap does not exist based on the videos I watched were all the same. The examples were all the same. So then you start to, if you really think about what you're watching, you start to realize that because everybody is all sucked into the similar algorithm for whichever topic that you're

you know, watching, the talking points are limited. The bullet points that you use to back up your statement or your thesis, the research, they're limited because it's getting regurgitated over and over again and diluted over and over again to the point where it's ridiculous. So only after if you, like you said, become self-aware and you watch the content you're watching and then you start to see patterns in the

talking points or in rebuttals then you have to ask yourself wait a minute is it is there something wrong with the content that i'm watching is it too biased is it too one-sided yeah you know and yeah like exactly is it too one-sided because you got to ask yourself and this is often a pattern i see question like just ask yourself are you getting the other side of the story you know because oftentimes you're not and you're only getting one side of that story

And you're like, but we don't notice it a lot of times because we're so invested in that position and that we don't notice, we're actually not getting other side of the story because we don't, because the truth is when you're invested in one position, you don't care to get the other side of the story because it feels good to have your opinions and your beliefs reinforced and tell you you're right for believing this way. And you know, you're, you, you, you're standing on the right side of morality, the right side of history for believing this way. And, and,

Sometimes and oftentimes it's really, really not the case. Really not the case. And there's plenty of examples. And again, I'm afraid to even say them. Do you ever think about, I mean, we live in an age where information being shared, it's like the great equalizer where anybody who has a voice, okay, who dares to even have a strong voice, right?

can and will be heard. And once they are heard, if they have any type of agreement from the user, from the listener or the user, that becomes multiplied, right? And the message gets sent out. Now, the great equalizer is because anybody can start that message, right? We live in a world where literally somebody with no fans can tweet something. And somehow,

By chance, a random person who may have 500 followers retweets it. And then another person with 10,000 followers retweets that. Next thing you know, that one freaking message that nobody...

follow this guy suddenly has a message that millions of people have watched i've read and becomes like real to them and that's one of the things that makes me think of when it comes to censorship in china where the excuse i don't know if it's an excuse or if it's real where the censorship exists because they don't want to have that create equalizer not everybody needs to have that voice there needs to be some sort of

like, or something. You know what I mean? Yeah, there needs to be some sort of safeguard against that. Or something. Right? And there's arguments on both sides of that. Both sides. Yeah. Both sides. Because you can look at, you know, you can say, yeah, freedom of speech, man. That's the all, like, holy thing that cannot be touched. And,

A big part of me believes in that, for sure. I mean, especially as podcasters. Yeah, we're talking. We're talking whatever we want. We're talking. And I've said this before on this show, too. We've had episodes that have been taken down here. And it pisses me off. It's really fucking annoying. And it sucks. And it's frustrating because we put a lot of work and time into doing this podcast and for it just to be taken down. But...

Do I want to see a society devolve into something like what we're seeing in the States? Yeah. I do not. No. Because that's chaos. It is chaos. And even if you ask the people living there, it's fucking chaos right now, the division, the misinformation. And I don't want that either. Also, to go back to what you said about this equalizer, how a person can tweet and another person retweets and then another person retweets, retweets, and then all of a sudden a million people have seen it.

That only happens if it's a message that people want to hear. But you have a contrary message. Most people don't want to hear that. And I've seen this. Well, until the minority becomes stronger and stronger, until it becomes not the minority. Yeah. And that, I guess, takes a long, long time. A long time. Let's go on a Western platform example, right? Let's say YouTube. Mm-hmm.

If you were to put out a video or Twitter, right? An American social media platform. If you were to tweet something in defense and positive about China, what chance of that does it really have of going viral on Twitter? None. You tweet something negative about China. Oh, everyone eats it up.

Yeah, in America. In the West. Because the message of anti-China is much stronger. Well, it's popular. It's much more, it's stronger because it's much more popular because people are conditioned to feel a certain way. Yeah. And, you know, if we take the war in Ukraine, you know, that's a very hot topic. When is the last time you were on any Western media outlet or social media and you got the Russian side of the story?

I'm not saying the Russians are the good guys here. I'm not. And if you look at all the news outlets, you're never hearing from the Russians. But they're talking. You're just not hearing it from them. So you have to ask yourself, and I'm not coming to any conclusions here. All I'm saying is with anything, I'm just using this war in Ukraine as an example. When are you hearing from all sides? And if you notice a pattern of, oh, actually, I'm not hearing from all sides. I'm hearing from one side.

Then you know something is going on. You know something's going on. And that's all I'm saying. I mean, way to be subtle, Justin. You're wearing a Russian shirt right now. I mean, it's ridiculous. I got a Putin badge on my chest. No, all I'm saying is, man, fucking look, just look for that pattern. Just look for that simple pattern. Are you hearing from all sides? That's it. Because we live in a world right now where that doesn't happen. You get fed one message, no matter where you are.

Well, yeah. Yeah. And, and I mean, growing up, we only had that one message pretty much. So you never really questioned it. And it's only because now where you can even entertain the idea of seeking out multiple angles and multiple messages, right. And having that access that, that if one is more aware, if one wants to put in the effort can find multiple angles to, to,

This applies here in China, too. You know, that's always one of the major talking points whenever America speaks negatively towards China. I mean, censorship is always like the biggest thing that comes up, right? Oh, yeah, you can't defend China. I mean, you're defending censorship. You're defending dictatorship. You know, China's media controls the whole country, etc.,

Well, America's too. America's pretty messed up as well. Now, is it the lesser of two evils? Debatable? Maybe debatable? Obviously, there's censorship here. But at least here, you know there's that censorship. So you know where to draw the lines of how much to believe and take everything with a grain of salt. Everyone's aware of that. You know. Well, I can't say everyone's aware of that. But at least we're aware of that.

Well, people in the States, there's a bunch of people that are aware of it as well. Yeah, but most people, I don't think so, man. Just like most people here aren't aware. Yeah, I think they just take it like they take it. Yeah. It works both ways, though. Think about what you're saying. I don't know, because I'm speaking- Hold on, I'm cutting you off. Where do you think you stand? You can't be right down the line. I'm not right down the line. Yeah, I'm not. You know where I stand. And anyone that's listened to the show for long enough knows where I stand. Yeah.

okay, I've never thought I'd actually say, talk about this part on air, but it's like, okay, so here's the thing, okay? And sure, there's probably critics. Eric is rolling in his grave right now. Go ahead. Eric is like, I'm so glad I'm not a part of this episode. You literally can go on

Any platform you want, any international platform you want. And it's saturated. The message out there is saturated with all the negative things you want to say about China, whether it's true or false or fucking made up. So the goalposts have been moved and shifted so far.

that if you were to just say something, even if it's true, but in support of China, all of a sudden it's like, oh my God, you're just working for the government. You must be getting paid. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not saying they're perfect here. Clearly there's problems, but hey, here are a few things that maybe we can actually learn from that are working pretty well here. And the narrative isn't what it's exactly being told in the West.

Even if you just say that, it's like you're on the extreme when really you're kind of more in the middle than you are in the extreme. So it drives me crazy. Even I have OCD, even in real life. Like I want things to be, you know, like, you know, symmetrical. I want, I want things to line up just right. So when I see something unbalanced, it drives me crazy. So,

When I see a conversation that is so unbalanced one way, and that could, again, we've talked about this, that could just be maybe the rabbit holes I'm in, maybe the algorithm that's making me think it's more unbalanced than it is, which, but I don't think so. At least not in the Western world. I don't think so. Right, right. So it is really fucking unbalanced. Yeah. So that's the conversation. That's the side I'm trying to talk about. I equate it to this.

Imagine you, Howie, you're living your life, your mind in your own business, and all of a sudden you find out that there's a stranger out there who you don't even know, who's never even met you.

but spreading all these crazy, like, vile rumors about you. And he has a large, large voice. He has, like, a big following of people. He's got a lot of followers. He's got a big network, you know? What's he saying? What's he saying? Oh, he's talking. He's saying you have a small dick. How does he know? He's saying all the worst shit about you, right? Yeah.

And like me, as a third person, watching this and knowing you, being like, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, whoa, wait a minute. Howie's got a huge one. What are you talking about? Why would I pile on with them? It drives me nuts. It really drives me nuts, Howie. So I think, I get it. So I think for anybody who listens to this, or who has listened to this, and have cringed listening to you, and there are... Which is many. And there are millions. All the time. There are millions. Millions, yeah. Yeah.

I mean, in your defense, Justin, and all of our defenses, actually, we also call it out

when necessary now i i agree with you in terms of trying to focus more on the positives and defend when it's required to defend but at the same time if something is a little bit not so right in our eyes we call it out hence a lot of our episodes have been canceled too of course of course but that's not the point like if someone wants to call out something a criticism of china that's that we feel it's true yeah

We're not going to argue against that. What I'm saying is it's worse than that because the narrative that's being put forward in Western media and Western minds about China...

It's not just, oh, look at these bad things about China that are true. Made up things. Well, it's just exaggerations. Not all the time. Exaggerations. A lot of it's exaggerations. Or some of them are just straight up lies as well. Like, I'm not saying every time. There are definitely bad things in this country as there are bad things in every single country. But the main narrative, if you walked, if you went on the streets of America and you picked some people out of the street by random and you asked them,

What do you think about China? Why do you feel that way? They will probably list off things that they've heard through the media that are, like you said, gross exaggerations of what the truth is here. Yeah.

- Which have become the talking points. - Which have become fact in the Western world, you know? - Repeated. - Yeah. So that's what's driving me crazy and that's what I'm trying to defend against with very little success, by the way, but I'm trying to defend against that. It's not about, oh, there's bad things too, there's good things. Yes, there's bad and good things about every single country. There's no country you can name that's only good things, of course, right?

And I'll be the first. If there's anyone that has a too consistent of a message of only positive, only positive, or only negative, only negative, you're not hearing the full story. 100%. Okay. So that being said, I just find it really unfair. And I don't want to raise my family in a country that all these people...

in an other side of the world seem to hate so much and for really no good reason other than they're being lied to about this country because obviously we don't need to get into the nitty gritties. There's a lot of geopolitical forces that are driving these narratives. And also just to further that, it's a trickle down effect. And just like you just said from the government, because you were basically following the

your local media that is feeding you a certain type of narrative and it's become your own narrative. So remember, do you ever see that video clip? This was many years ago. It was a video clip of, um, it was a montage of all these different media outlets, uh,

repeating like the same lines verbatim verbatim yeah like verbatim yeah about a news story yeah yeah like verbatim headlines yeah headlines and they were saying it the the exact word word for word different networks different networks everything left and right side of the aisle everything yeah all saying the exact same thing and if that is not proof of you that these media outlets are not coming up with these things headlines on their own they're being fed stories to feed to you

You have to question where these narratives are coming from. But it's also sad. I think we brought it up once in the past episode, but it's sad because there are certain media personnel in the States that we tend to like to watch that are either funny or whatever, that seem to have a good head on their shoulders, seem to be balanced, or seem to be open against the media and stuff like that. But then when it comes to China...

Whoa, all of a sudden. Hop right back in. Right back to the talking points. Yeah, right back into those talking points. I feel like that. And then if you look at the bigger picture, and that's one thing that I've seen some political correspondents have talked about and also media journalists have talked about, is the one factor, redeeming factor that can bring both sides together, the Democrats and the Republicans, is China.

And the way they feel about China. Right? So it's fucked up. It's fucked up. And it's scary. And it sickens me. Because it doesn't really have to be that way. Yet the world is in this collision course of division and hatred and possibly even war that has me really scared. Can I share a quick story? Because this is also affecting the country we live in right now.

uh in terms of nationalism and and you know it got to the point where i was recently told uh by a producer i was on a bid for a job okay with a with a client that i've shot with and i know they like me a lot and i know that uh like they've been wanting to work with me again and one of their creative directors got changed right and so they have a new creative director in

There's a new bid and I went in for it. They asked me to be a part of it. And then I found out they didn't choose me, not even close. And then the producer, I was like, what happened? He's like, well, I was a new creative director and they have their own way of thinking. I'm like, what? Is they have a problem with my work? They're like, no, he actually likes your work. He thinks your work is really good, but he doesn't want to hire you. I'm like, why? He's like, he wants to hire a local. He doesn't want to hire you because you're American. I go, what?

Are you serious? We're getting to that point now? Like, literally, what I felt in my gut that... He wants made in China. Yeah. But I felt this, like, recently, like, the past year or two. I was like, should I, like, change my bio to stop using my English name and start using... I remember you talking about this. Right? To use my Chinese name? Should I not talk about me being born in America? Like...

Because I feel like I'm having a little bit of a change in terms of my work response. And this just comes in. And I'm like, fuck, I knew it. It's got to be something like that. Some people are going to be biased like that. And they're going to be in positions of power. Yeah. Right? Obviously, it's not huge power. It's just an agency. But it affects you already. But it affects me. It affects my livelihood. I got twins to feed. Yeah.

I'm not here as an American. I'm here as a filmmaker, you know, who lives in China, who's making... Who just happens to be American. Who happens to be American, but I'm Chinese, you know? Yeah. And... Well, that's what also what boils my blood and sickens me as well, just as much. I don't know. I just feel like, yes, there is that growing resentment. And I feel like the people who feel that way here are taking it out on the wrong people. Because...

Even, let's say, even if you are American, the Americans that are choosing to live in China are not your enemy. Yeah, I know. The ones that have chose to be here are not your enemy. Yeah, that's ironic. Right? So it's like you're going after the wrong people, and I hate it whenever I see a case of,

you know, racism or hatred because of that here. It just, my heart just sinks because it's like, dude, you're completely going after wrong people because the people that choose to live here clearly have some level of respect for this place and are trying at least maybe they're not doing the greatest job, but at least trying to understand what it is to live here. Right. Right.

I don't know. We've met some pretty bullshitty assholes. Who live here as well. Yes, of course. But oftentimes, those aren't even the people that are getting the hate. It's like you, all of a sudden, who has lived here for 16 years, who loves this country, ethnically, and it's just like, dude, you're going after the wrong people, man. Not that you should go after anybody, but you definitely shouldn't be going after the people who choose to be here. Because they're here for a reason. Yeah.

And I want to roll it back to a point you were talking about in terms of, you know, we're talking about the narratives being put forward and voices that are being able to be heard, right? And you were talking about the great equalizer in terms of social media nowadays and technology, even a person with zero followers and very little support can somehow get blasted out if they say the right thing. And what is the right thing? Because

The way I talk about it, I make it seem like there's no one in the Western world defending China, for example. But there are. There actually are. There are people actually even in the American government defending China.

You can look at, if you want to go online, you can look at people like Jeffrey Sachs. You can look at Chris Hedges. You can look at a lot of these people who are legitimate people who are deeply connected or working in the government. Professors, historians who've been to all these countries, who've lived there. Even Ray Dalio. Ray Dalio even caught flack.

for his saying, he wasn't supporting China, but he was just merely talking positively about China because he's spent a lot of time here. You can talk to these people, but their messages, with maybe the exception of Ray Dalio, because he's like, talks about a lot of other things in terms of finance and stuff. But if you look at Jeffrey Sachs, if you look at all these other people, they have a presence, but their voices are not, like if you look at the view counts, it's like a few thousand, you know? It's like nothing, right? Right.

You don't hear that. And that's why there's a particular channel on YouTube I like. If you have the opportunity to go on YouTube or something, look up a channel which I really like under New Moves. N-U-M-U-V-E-S. He lives in China, doesn't he? Yeah, I think he lives in China. I don't know. I'm trying to find a way to get in touch with him.

But I don't know anything about him. All I know is his channel name is called New Moves. N-U-M-U-V-E-S. I've seen his stuff. Yeah. It's not like a huge channel or anything, but he's got a few followers. He's growing. Yeah, he's grown. And what I love about him is he's not like sitting in front of the camera talking about his opinions and what he believes and how everyone's talking lies like what I'm doing. He's showing real clips of people, politicians, politicians,

or media outlets from the original source and clipping them and showing you what they're being said. And these are often the clips that have

made it on air but never got the eyeballs exposure never got any exposure because it was talking about a message that's unpopular it's not the common narrative it will never get pushed it contradicts the common narrative so it never gets pushed yeah I've seen a lot of his clips that he's put out and actually yeah I think it was great to get him on the show we should definitely have you reached out to him?

No, I don't even know how to. I'll give him a call. Your new moves, aren't you? It's been you this whole time. Let me text him. It's been you this whole time. And let me reply right now. No, but I love it because he's just clipping from like real original sources. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is the best way because it's like you can't argue with that. Yeah. It's not an opinion. Yeah, I've seen a couple of his videos which made my mouth drop.

Because I'll be like, oh, shit. Like, why is nobody talking about that? Yeah, it's like truth bombs being like, this explains it all. How come no one's, like, making a fuss about this? How come this isn't being shared, you know? Yeah, because it's against American interests at the end of the day, right? Because, you know, everything that's happening right now, it's all for American interests. Whether good or bad, depending on how you're looking at it, I mean, you could be very nationalistic and think that that's the proper way to be.

But it is what it is. You know, it's American interest is to have people be, is to be antagonistic towards China because China is a threat in one way or another. And that's just to protect its own interests. And just like China needs to protect its own interests and they're doing what they're doing through media here as well. It's just unfortunate. I think that's the best way to say it's just unfortunate. Yeah.

That we have to live in a world that needs to do that. Yeah. As opposed to just, you know, kumbaya and working together. Yeah. Yeah. But I do feel that there is a clear instigator. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Well, because the instigator is the one that has the most to lose. Hence, he needs to.

And when I'm saying he, I'm saying the country. Why don't you just say the country, Howie? Why don't you just say the country? Yeah, so Poland, it's got way too much to lose. Oh, God. Oh, man. How do we get on that tangent? I don't know, but I feel like I've had a bottle. You got passionate about that. I've had a bottle up in me for a long time because, and it feels like kind of good in a way to let it out because I've kept it bottled up inside because I'm very aware that

To a lot of, let's say, maybe our Western audience or even expat audience. Like, this is not what they want to hear. And that's precisely my point. Okay, more likely than not. You can't overgeneralize. You can't generalize 100%. But more likely than not, the expats or the people who are not living in China listening to us, the fans that are outside, they probably would, more likely than not, be into us living here and being like, dude, it's so true.

We live here and everything you hear in the American media, everything you hear in the European media is true. It's fucked up here. Oh, dude. Our ratings and our subscriptions would skyrocket. It would be that easy. And we've seen people and social media personalities who have gone down that road. Who have gone down that road and they have millions of followers. Yeah.

We could very easily probably get millions of followers if we just went full dark side. Yeah, no way. But that's not what I want to do, and that's not the right thing to do. This is what I truly believe to be true. And again, man, maybe I'm the crazy one. Well, I think we need to give ourselves credit because even when we do say something that

could be defined as biased. We try to look at it from both sides. We try to entertain other ideas. Yeah. We don't stand 100% on one side unless we're just so passionate like you have been for the past 20 minutes. But in general, we tend to come in not so in your face, which I think is the right way. As long as...

We're coming from a genuine place. But every now and then, we let loose, we let it rip, and we talk about things like this. And I like that. I like that we will actually do it because you know what? The truth is, there's a lot of people that wouldn't dare, even if they believed us, even if they felt the way we do, wouldn't talk about it openly, especially on a podcast. They wouldn't.

And I get it. Especially with a fan base. I mean, like, yeah. I get it. And I totally get it because it's scary. It's scary putting ourselves out there like this. Because you know the reason why is because our podcast is not about that. Right? So if our podcast was about pro-China and this and that, you know, it's not a big deal. Or anti-China. It wouldn't be a big deal. Right? It's the fact that we're not about that.

right but we're talking so strongly about this topic it could very easily alienate our audience because the audience could be like what the fuck I came here to come up with some new freaking habits to learn some new habits what are you talking about we went from like transactional analysis to like this you know like

Look, a lot of what we talk about and even whatever the topic is, we always try to relate it back to what our personal lives, what our experience is with the backgrounds we have living here in China. I mean, at the end of the day, that's kind of the core essence of our show. And that's why that gives us the freedom to talk about a lot of different topics. Which I think is important. I mean, even if this episode gets taken down. All right. Well, let's pivot for a second. Okay.

Something similar, but a little bit more soft. You mentioned this on air. You mentioned about everything, everywhere, all at once. Sweeping so many. Oh, that's a huge pivot. Okay. But we're still talking about like the, well, okay, okay. You're right. It is a big, it was a big pivot, but it's based off of a topic, a bigger topic that I felt like we were going to talk about, which is the Asian identity in America.

Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. I went on a huge rant. That was like an hour we were going on that rant. It was like five hours. You don't even know how long you go, man. We went from technology to healthcare. I literally fell asleep. I fell asleep. The only reason why it doesn't sound as long is because Justin edited out half his rant. Okay. But yeah, so you were mentioning about everything, everywhere, all at once, winning so many awards at the Oscars. Yeah.

And it, I mean, okay, you didn't share your thoughts about it. So here's your chance. What'd you thought about it? What? What? Why are you just throwing me this ticking time bomb? I don't know.

I didn't have that much to say about it. I wasn't like, why'd you bring it up? I brought it up because you're into film. You're a film guy. You're a director. I thought like, maybe that would be of interest to you. What did you want to get me? What'd you want to get out of it? What'd you want to hear me say? I had no agenda and bring that up. I don't know what you're trying to spin. You're trying to spin the narrative here, which I had this like huge agenda. I thought you were trying to relate it to the whole Asian American identity or Asian awareness and media. I thought that could have been a topic. Yeah.

Yes, but I thought it would have been more of interest to you because it's talking about film and the film industry and we're talking about a movie. I don't know if you saw it or not. Well, you didn't bring up Coda last year when Coda won. Yeah, I don't know. I don't even know what that movie is.

No, but I think it's cool. I think it's, how do you say his name? K.K. Hui Kwan? Short round? I thought that was really sweet. When he had that reunion with Harrison Ford. Oh, God, that tugged on my heartstrings, bro. If you see any of his interviews, it's freaking emotional, man. I tear up. Yeah. I tear up. I feel so proud. I feel good. Yeah.

I cheer up, man, because it's like the real underdog story. It's like the true underdog story. Yeah, I feel so proud.

And he's like, he's had it rough, man, in that industry. Because, like, you know, no one was giving him any roles. He was assistant directing. He was stunt coordinating. He basically left the whole film acting business. He was like your business. Yeah. Because he couldn't get any more jobs. So he's like, okay, well, I love the film business, so I'll still be in the film business. But I can't get jobs as an actor. Did you know he's going to be in the Marvel Universe now? What? Yeah. No. Yeah. Who? I don't know. I don't know. But he...

It's confirmed. They're so smart. He's going to be in the Marvel Universe. They're riding his wave right now. Oh, yeah. Marvel is so smart. I don't know what movie or show he's going to be in. I don't know. Cut to Shang-Chi 2. Fuck.

Can't give him a new IP? Yeah, I know. Like, we gotta throw him in the Asian bucket, right? God damn it. He's gotta be in the Asian Marvel film. Okay, can I... I'm gonna go on my rant now. Okay. You go. Because this is my issue with freaking the media in America when it comes to movies and television and music and all that stuff. It's like, when you see all these, like...

Like, right now, it's a hot topic to see in films and whatever, to see Asians in leading roles, right? To push the Asian agenda, Asian films, Asian TV shows. And then you see all the media talk about, look, look, look, it's an Asian TV show. Look, look, look, another Asian film. Kill in the box office. See? See? People want to see the Asian narrative. People want...

I think in general, any time that... Okay, let me step back for a second. I'm getting a little passionate right now. You got hot right there. You got hot. Am I happy to see more Asian faces in the media? Yes. Am I happy to see more films about the Asian narrative? Yes. My problem is the calling of attention to it. As if we are lesser and we need to be...

Like, we have to be propped up, you know? It's like, if we were all equal, if we were all, like, on equal terms, like, normal, like, it just is. You know what I mean? Like, this is so you. Is it? Is it? Because this goes... Is it? Yeah, because it goes back to the whole theme of affirmative action, which you also do not support. Yeah. Right? Like, we don't need to be propped up. Well, because I guess I'm just so, like...

I grew up in a... I never had Chinese friends and stuff like that. And I had an Asian... One of my best friends was Asian, Filipino. But in general, I didn't really hang out with Asians. And I never dated Asians. It was just like... I was in my own little bubble as an Asian. And I did my thing. I was never handicapped. I never felt like...

Sure, I had racism towards me, but it just... Whatever. Only until I look back upon it and start talking about it that I realize, oh, that was fucked up. But if I was living through the moment, I would be like, yeah, it's fucked up, and I move on. And then I just continue my life. I never let anything negative towards me hold me down. Right? You never played the victim. I never played the victim, and I never needed to. But I think it just in general, I guess it was just my personality to never put my race as an issue. And I just...

Did my thing. I got my jobs. If I couldn't get a job, it's because I didn't have the ability to get that job. If I got a job, it's because I did a fucking good job on my last one to get hired on the next job. So I didn't want to give into that bullshit narrative of, woo is me, you need to hire me, or you need to give me credit. Yeah, we don't need your pity. Because I'm Chinese. So even though, yes, if you look at the landscape of,

Of America. Whether it was at that time when I grew up. Or even now.

Is there a bit of an imbalance in terms of exposure based off of race and all that stuff? Yes, of course. 100%. But there's also a population difference, right? And there's also... I mean, I don't know. I just feel like... No, I get you. I get you. I don't know. I get passionate about it because I feel like it works also for black people. But I can't speak so deeply upon it because I'm not black. And I don't think I should. But...

I feel like it's equatable to a certain extent where if you only play the victim card and if you're only going to look at the negatives of anything, then you're always going to be in the negative. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I don't feel as strongly as you do about it because I would, if, for example, taking this specific example for a second, everything, everywhere, all at once. If all the studios and all the media weren't like, look, they won, and pushing that whole thing

A whole virtue signaling is really what they're doing, right? Look, you know, we're diverse. We're all inclusive. Look, Asians, right? I'd be upset if they didn't do that only because they've already set a precedent of them doing that beforehand, right? And to your example, the African-American community, you know, when Black Panther came out,

And Wakanda Forever, or the second Black Panther, they made a huge buzz about that. Like, all African American cast, right? It's a whole kind of movement, right? Which is awesome. So if they didn't do the same for the Asians, I'd be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. There's kind of like a double standard there, right? Yeah.

So, I mean, as long as it doesn't take away from the fact of the film was a good film and the acting was good acting. Well, did you like the film? I did. Let's be honest. I thoroughly enjoyed it. 100%. It was an interesting film, yeah. 100%. And I thought it was very original and I really loved it. I loved it.

And I've been a fan of the directors for a while. The Daniels? Yeah, I've been since the music video days. They're freaking crazy. Well, I never heard of them before this movie. Dude, I'll show you one of the best music videos. You're going to love it. Really? But yeah, I've known about them for a while. Now, it's funny because one of them is white, one of them is Asian, right? Chinese. Oh, is the other Daniels a Chinese guy? The Taiwanese. Oh, I thought he was like Korean or something. I think he's like either half or full. Okay. Yeah.

But yeah, he speaks a little Chinese. And so anyway, I was watching this like Oscars backstage press conference with media. And I saw all the questions going about the Asian-ness. Because the producer is also half Asian, right? It's like half Chinese, half Taiwanese. And so a lot of the questions were about the ethnicity of Asian. And you saw the white guy in the back like,

But like, if I was the white guy, I'd be like, dude, if he really was 50% of the directing, you know what I mean? And all that shit was going on the other side. I could obviously be very fair and balanced and be like, oh, no, the Asians need their time. Right? Or I can be in the moment and be like, I fucking worked hard to get here. How come no one's talking to me? Yeah. You know, because I'm white.

I'm not here to defend white people. I'm just trying to be fair and balanced. No, no, I get you. I get that point. I get that point completely. I love seeing Asian faces on it winning Oscars and stuff like that. I love that shit. But I just don't want it to be about that. Yeah, yeah. You don't want that to override the main message of like, look, this is art. You got talented fucking people making a film and they happen to be Asian. That's what it should be about, right? Yeah.

If in the future you have an... Well, this film was about an Asian family. So I guess it works what I'm about to say. If there's another fucking film that wins about... If it's like a Chinese immigrant family or whatever, it should just be about a good story. Not because it's a Chinese immigrant family. That's all I'm saying. Yeah. I just hate when... I don't know. It's like the pat on the head. Like the little brother syndrome. I get that sentiment. I get that sentiment. But...

In defense. In defense. Okay. The film itself kind of made it about that already. Right? Why? The film itself, because the way them themselves promoted the film and the topic of the film is really about Asians. It's about kind of like the Asian experience in a way. Not really. Did you watch the film? Yeah, I watched the film. How is it about the Asian experience? The...

How is it not about the Asian experience? It's partly about it. The whole characterization of the characters, of Michelle Yeoh's character, of the daughter's character, of Ki Hwan, however you say his name, of his character. You're so racist.

No, they themselves were playing up the whole Asian stereotype thing to begin with. The fanny pack, the kung fu. Laundromat, I get it. Yeah, the laundromat, the kung fu scenes that they've taken a lot of inspiration from, from Jackie Chan movies and Bruce Lee movies and all these kung fu flicks that came before them. They took a lot of inspiration. So a lot of it was themed around this whole theme of being Asian and Asian-American.

To begin with, in the film. It's like ingrained in the film itself. Well, I mean, that's a narrative. I mean, Immigrant Family is still a narrative. That's a story. It's not saying that, oh, that's the whole story, right? That's just the setup. I mean, I don't think it's about that. I don't think it's just... What is it about? What is it about?

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm really not. I'm just saying. I'm just playing double scouting because I really don't know. Like, what is it about? Yes. If you want to get to the heart of the story, it's basically, it's just about finding the true meaning of what love is, you know? Whether it's her and her husband's love, whether with her and her daughter, you know, the parents. There's just things about love, right? That's true. Now...

Now, if I want to break it to that simplistic, that's what I would say. But yes, you want to throw in the Asian narrative, yes, sure, there's an Asian narrative in it because it's an immigrant family, but there's also sci-fi. They're time-warping. You can easily say, well, it's about time-warping. It's the multiverse, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know? No, no, no, I get you, I get you, I get you. I know. You want to go on, man. You want to just let it rip. Let it rip!

Oh, here they go again. Here they go. Look at these guys. Every single time Justin and Harry get together, they start complaining and whining. Okay. Anyway, let's just stop it here before we get ourselves in any more shit. On that note, right before we sign off, you said top show you're watching right now? Oh, Shrinking. Shrinking. I love Shrinking. Let's name another one.

Last of Us, Shrinking, the new Mandalorian has come out. But out of all those, I actually really love Shrinking. Because I remember when we had mentioned Ted Lasso on the show a while back.

A lot of fans were just like, oh, yeah, Ted Lasso. Or fans that just heard of it because we talked about it and they watched it and they loved it. If you love Ted Lasso, I'm pretty sure you're really going to love Shrinking. It's kind of in the same vein, just in different contexts with different characters, different actors. It's really funny. Shrinking. Okay, I'll check it out.

And on that note. And it's a lot about what we talk about on the show, like self-health, mental health. Oh, good. Stuff like that. But also the new Ted Lasso. Yeah, new season of Ted Lasso is coming out as well. Can't wait for that. Okay. Yeah, I guess that's it, man. Good talking to you. We haven't had a one-on-one for a while, me and you. We haven't had anything in a while. It's so much better when Eric's not here, to be honest.

Anyway, okay, we'll stop it there. I'm Justin. And I'm Howie. All right, be good and be well. Peace.