#120. Larry Wang: The Right Direction
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. If you've been enjoying the show, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. All right, we got a really good show for you guys today. Our guest has made a career out of helping people with their careers.

You know what I need? I need soft skills. I'm really terrible at that. I just got hard skills. You're working on that. You got hard skills. Oh, for sure. Well, you know, my problem is I'm always banging my head against the wall trying to figure things out. But you know what? You do not want to reinvent success, right? Smarter, not harder.

Yeah, and for me, I took inspiration out of how to take that next step in your life, no matter where you're trying to go and how lost you are, but having the awareness of taking the right step in the right direction. Yeah, we got some nuggets in this one. Without further ado, please give it up for Larry Wang. I just couldn't let you go

Well, first of all, like, are we recording? Yeah. It's like, the listeners can't see, but there were literally like four, like, massive bottles of whiskey, and then we look at him, like, dead in the eye, like, you drink whiskey? Yeah. He looks at his watch. Point of no return here. All right. Cheers. Cheers, everyone. Welcome, Larry. Great to meet you guys. Cheers. Yeah, thanks. Cheers. Cheers. How's that taste, Larry? We're good. We're good? Yeah. All right. How you been?

Good, good. Great day today. You know, took my daughter to her ballet lesson and just headed over here. Yeah. So I guess first off, just with the basics, you know, when did you come to China? You know, how long ago was that?

So, I don't give the specific year, because then you can do the math, and it definitely dates me, but I will say the very early 90s. Okay. Yeah. It says in your book right here, though. It doesn't really? But they don't see the book yet. That's just your access. You have to pay to know that information. Let me just say, I've been here over 30 years. Okay. Dang. Wow. So, I guess you were one of the...

First waves of ABCs in terms of American-born Chinese to come to China and stay here? I would definitely say that. I would definitely say that. And by the way, my landing point was actually Taipei. So I've been in, you know, greater China for over 30 years, and I've kind of done a tour of duty. You know, I spent like four years, first four years in Taipei, then five years in Hong Kong, and it was a great time because it was before and after the handover years.

Oh, yeah. 1997. Yeah, that was a great time. Oh, yeah. Great time. I was there. I was there during the Hanover, yeah. And then in 99, I moved to Shanghai, spent a year and a half, and then I spent six years in Beijing before coming back. Yeah. So I've been back here since maybe 206.

Just being here the last 30 years and seeing the development and change is... Because this has been an amazing time. And if you have no reference for that, you don't... Maybe don't really appreciate it, right? So a lot of people have grown up in this, like...

They call it a miracle economy, which it really is. And I always remember one phrase. It's not mine, but I was at a talk, and this guy, the way he described this period was like, you know, more people have achieved greater success in a shorter period of time than any other time in human history. And

When you think about that, that's really kind of, first of all, it's true. And then it's also, if you can recognize that, then you just appreciate everything that's going on. So I think one of my things is like, and being a foreigner here in China, and

I really dislike hearing people who are from outside of China coming here and complaining and bitching and moaning and things like that. I really don't like that. You know, I just have gratitude. I appreciate being here. I don't have a victim complex about, you know.

anything, you know, and of course there are things... What about the lockdown, though? What's that? What about the lockdown? You know, even that, you know, I could say, you know, I didn't like it and things like that, but I think overall it's just something you go through. I mean, people are going through things in other countries, too, you know, and that they were unhappy about, right? I mean, in New York or in Florida or, like, I don't know, California and things like that. So...

So I don't know. It's like I to me, it's always just a journey consistently. And what I write about in my first book is like I was trying to attract more Chinese Americans to this to this part of the world. Right. And do things that we would never be doing in the States.

Maybe in the States, I'm in a corporate job. I'm in a function. I have an engineering background and stuff like that. But here, I'm an entrepreneur and I'm doing business and I'm doing all sorts of things because it's a much less developed market. Now, the competition

economy is much more mature, but there still are kind of more gaps or, you could say, places that are less developed that give you opportunities if you have that interest and drive like that. So yeah, that's how I look at it. We talk about this concept of the victim mentality a lot on this show, and that really resonates with me, what you said. I agree. I think if more people kind of had

the outlook that you do, it'd be a better world. Where from the States are you? So I was born in White Plains, New York, which is a suburb outside of New York City. But I actually grew up in North Carolina up until I was about eight years old. My parents were academics. They taught at NC State in North Carolina in those days. So this was like in the 60s. And there were no other

minority families. There were no other Chinese families, you know, like that. I remember my brother and I, whenever we were playing with the kids in the neighborhood, and in those days you play army, right? And there's American side. And of course we were all these, the Japanese and outnumbered, like 10 to two, you know, it's like, why do we gotta be the Japanese? I was like, do we have to explain that? It was like, come on.

So it was consistently like that. And then we moved to Maryland, Bethesda, which is, I would say, outskirts of D.C. And then I went to school in Philadelphia. And then I moved to L.A. for my first job like that and lived there for nine years. Where did you go to school in Philadelphia? To Penn. I went to UPenn. For the life of me, I honestly don't know how I got in because I got rejected from it.

every other school except for Penn. Yeah, true. I applied to UPenn and I got rejected. Yeah. I got rejected from Virginia, Duke, Cornell, and Penn was, ended up being my backup school, you know, which I, yeah, like, but I, yeah. Geez, UPenn was your backup school? No, it wasn't. We were very different academically then. but the reason I say that because I didn't get into any other school. Yeah, I got rejected everywhere else. Harvard was my backup school, but I didn't get in either. There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, okay, yeah, that's really fascinating. This is actually a great segue to actually your first book, right? I mean, you were talking about kind of when you arrived here to greater China, you were trying to be like this kind of beacon to maybe other countries.

american chinese to kind of come here and explore and kind of take advantages of the opportunities here right yeah um why like why did you feel the need to have to do that and to write a book about it okay so the first thing i'll say is like when i came here i i didn't have that in mind at all you know it was more just individual because i was recognizing this was like uh

the Pacific century, right? And this was the time for this part of the world to really develop and grow. And could I be somebody that could help

And I really didn't know in what aspect to help to the development or to help in some ways accelerate that development. Because for sure, there are a lot of needs, economic aspirations, goals, but there are a lot of big gaps, right, like that. And so, you know, China was trying to learn from the West in all aspects, business, technology, just, you know, how to, you know, like capitalism and things like that. So I was really coming, contemplating,

Kind of in search of something for myself personally. It wasn't until...

maybe about six years later, that I got the idea to write the book because I was meeting not a ton of people, but examples of other people like me. And they all had fascinating stories. Somebody was like an accountant and she wanted to bring bagels to China, you know. And so Mrs. Shannon's, I write about her in my book. And she knew nothing about making bagels, but she has a passion for bagels and she wants to, you know, introduce this to China and people like that. And

You know, other people... So she just left her accounting job and became an entrepreneur? Well, that's what she was. And I know you've had Charlie here, right? Yeah. He's the same, similar story. His background, I think he's PWC. I can't remember exactly where. But now he's, you know, a restaurateur, you know. Selling burgers. Yeah, yeah. Slinging burgers. Slinging burgers. But... And I was meeting all sorts of people that were...

Just able to do things that was really bringing out their passion or their genuine desire and interest in something, you know, and they were really enjoying it. And I would say that that is exactly my MO like that because I never had any aspirations of entrepreneurship in the States.

But that's defined me coming out here because there are all sorts of things you're looking at and go like, why not me? You know, I mean, it exists or barely exists. Like, why not me? You know, like. Is that because like here, because especially then, not so much now, but it was like really a developing market, a developing economy, society. So like for a lot of ideas, especially maybe if we were coming from the West and bringing some new ideas in, the barrier of entry was much lower. Yeah.

You could say that. So it gave you more confidence, like you can actually pull it off? I don't know if I would say more confidence. I probably think more like opportunity. Like that was the key. So as an example, like my first company I founded was this recruitment company called Wong and Lee Asia Resources, right? And when I came up with the idea to start the company, first of all, I have no HR background.

And I have never done any recruitment. You know, I, I, I've never placed a person in my life, you know, but I did recognize the need, the gap between the talent need and to supply, you know, like that. Okay. Um, there's very aggressive growth among multinationals. And if you're going to grow, you could have a great plan. You have a great strategy, a great product, but you need people to execute. Right. So particularly a manager, senior manager level. And, um,

And so, you know, I just felt like somebody told me, Larry, there are a lot of recruitment firms here already. You know, it's like, OK. But then when I was talking to employers, they weren't saying like, oh, I love my recruitment firms. They're great. You know, I'm getting what I need from them. So I go like, you know, OK, well, you know, maybe I can figure it out. And, you know.

using kind of more of a consulting approach, like really understanding why aren't you satisfied? What are they falling short about? And that's why I founded Wangan Asia Resources. And then many years later, we were recognized as China's recruitment firm of the year. And we didn't invent anything completely new, but we just did it in a more professional way. And

in response to the true needs of the market. And that's why I wrote my books about the second and third one, Soft Skills and Career Sense, you know. Well, I want to just touch on something because all the way back then, you said this was like the age of like the Pacific. Like you kind of already were seeing kind of how things were shifting towards Asia, right?

In general, like all the way back then already? I mean, that's a lot of insight to have, especially back then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a little bit ahead of the curve in terms of people catching on, right? Yeah, yeah. I'll tell you kind of an interesting story. Like, so I actually used that to get into my MBA program, you know. I always tell people, I never tell people my GMAT score, but I got into Anderson School, you know, UCLA. And, you know, at that time it was a top 12 program, but...

I got in with the lowest GMAT score and the lowest GPA of anybody I've ever met get into a top program. And I remember distinctly, I believe the reason I got in is because, of course, it had to be my essay, but I wrote about development in China, you know.

Because it was kind of new, and I was working for Mattel at the time, right? And I kind of made a connection between one-child family planning policy, which people had heard about, and how, even though it was a poor country, families would be investing more in the education and development of their citizens.

- Single child. - And educational toys would be a big market. So I was kind of writing about that and stuff like that. - And this was like a few decades ago, right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, several decades ago. I'm curious, do you think if you were to write that same essay now in today's climate, do you think it'd be-- - No, no, no, no.

But back then, I would say it was original. And very few people were talking about China at that time. I remember, like, I was taking a course, and it was international something, and the professor was from Europe, from Spain. And I was asking him about, like, well, all the case studies were about Europe, right?

in international business. And I said, well, what about Asia? And I remember what he said. And he was very decorated. He says, well, it's not really a relevant topic yet. Why would you think he'd say something like that?

Because, you know, a lot of people... Oh, at that time, it wasn't relevant. That's right. Like, everyone, you know, first of all, he's not Asian, you know, so he doesn't pay attention to Asia, you know, he's Europe, you know, so all the, like, how to do business in Europe, you know, like that, you know. It was a very early days, like, even expats going to China, like, that was a hardship, they call it a hardship post, you know, like that. And rare. Yeah, yeah. It's like exploring the new frontier. Yeah, yeah, like that. The, you know...

The early people that came to China, like Westerners, whether you're a Chinese American, it's like landing on the beach. The first wave is just annihilated. Yeah, yeah. Like that, you know. And so you're better off being the second wave, right? Like that. And then there's a little bit, you can walk over dead bodies, you know, to get, yeah, to do things. I want to go back to a couple of things you said. One of them is,

You know, you mentioned that like if you don't have this reference point of like 30 something years, you don't really appreciate just how much has changed. And I thought that was a really profound statement. And then you shared this example of like applying to business school and like China just being irrelevant back then. People not knowing anything. And then that being sort of your insightful forward-looking thinking that kind of got you on this path. And...

like how much has changed in like 30 years? Like it's crazy. Yeah. Like from all different sides and perspectives, like when we came out to China, like, you know, China wasn't even in the news. I remember reading an article in like Newsweek or whatever. And it was like, oh, there's this crazy art scene in Shanghai and Beijing. It was like exotic to me. How long ago was that article? That was like in the, in the like 2000 and whatever, right? Like before 2010. Okay. Right.

So like what, like 15 years or something like that? And it was like fascinating, right? And that was like an article and it was like how vibrant things were and it was up and coming. It was newsworthy that there was an art scene here. Yeah, like there's actually an art scene in China. Like, wow. Because all you think about is like bicycles and whatever. And now look at it. It's like every single article is about China in sort of different ways. The economies are so tied together. So you think about like what's happened in this short amount of time

you know, just between the two countries. And then you think like in 30 years, what will things be like? So whenever things, people get really, really pessimistic about something, then you can kind of go back and say, things just can change like, you know, so rapidly. And then I wanted to make one point on the one child thing.

And it makes sense, right? I think it's a clever way of looking at it. But I suddenly thought that, well, if Chinese families had more than one child, wouldn't they buy even more toys? But they're poor. It's an underdeveloped country. I mean, there's no...

You know, in those days, people don't even have a TV. They don't have a washing machine. You know, they don't, you know, they're eating vegetables through like cabbage through the whole winter, you know. Yeah. They're poor, you know, like that. But if you did have any money, you know, you would, you know, whatever you could afford, it would be for that one child because that's your future. Yeah. Yeah. So more premium stuff rather than like.

like if you had more than one, you might not, you might just be spending your money feeding them. Yeah. That's exactly right. But if you would have to like really budget out for each kid, right? Yeah. Instead of just blowing your load off on one child. Yeah. Like buying like the freaking latest toys and stuff. Yeah. That's so crazy. Cause like,

You know, when you walk around, like, we usually eat at home. But, you know, we decided to go out, my wife and I, a couple days ago when we were in Singtendi. And, like, all the restaurants were, like, packed, right? All of them were packed. Whether they were good or not, they were packed. And, like, they're, like, so expensive. I mean, like, we went to, like, a lower-end version of a, like, so basically a...

kind of a famous chef, and then created like a lower end version that's accessible to the public, right? And that place is still like 500 person. Wolfgang Puck?

Wolfgang Puck is out. Stiller. Yeah, Wolfgang Puck isn't there anymore, right? Yeah. Like, Wolfgang Puck is... That just shows how long I've been out. But anyway, Stiller has a couple of... He has tie-in tables, like, three-star Michelin. He's got one in Guangzhou. Anyways, we'd never go there because it's like 3,000 a person. So we go to, like, the low-end version, right? Because we're like, that's kind of interesting. Completely packed. People just ordering. It's all 100%. I think it was, like, 95% Chinese. There was, like, one...

you know, two German businessmen. And I mean, people just ordering stuff. I mean, the portions are just like, they're tiny, minuscule. Like there was a Shake Shack, like literally across. And we're like, should we just, after we spent like, you know, a thousand, we're like, fuck this. Should we just go to Shake Shack? Exactly. Right. Exactly. And I mean, and then you compare that to like,

people are eating cabbage all winter. Yeah. And it's like, what the fuck? By the way, I, you know, I don't want to sound like your grandfather, you know, and tell me stories of the old days, but so, but actually the, the, the real connection, um, even preceding my mom was my, my grandmother. And, um, so the first time I came to China was, um, I, I think it was 85, 85. Wow. And, um, um,

I was like an American-born Chinese, and I was that kind of banana. Other than the fact that I looked Asian, I'm really...

You still have that North Carolina accent. That was the interesting thing. You still have it. I've been called banana, too, in the States. Were you guys ever called a banana? Yeah. We were all called bananas? Yeah. Oh, I thought I was like the only one called a banana. I was never called a banana, but I think most people would recognize me because if you close your eyes, you know, I sound like a, you know. For anyone that doesn't know, any listeners that don't know, banana is you're yellow on the outside, but white in the inside. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But anyways, so my mom made my older brother and I, who's two years older, to kind of take escort, really, chaperone my grandmother, who was seven years old at the time. So when we came to China...

Uh, no McDonald's, no, not, not, not anything. No Levi's, nothing, nothing Western. So, uh, a couple of references, like one is that I remember there were hardly any cars. So imagine a bicycle. It was bicycle traffic, no cars going down, um, uh, you know, Chang'e, uh, like, uh, the main. Chang'e. Yeah. Chang'e. Yeah. And, uh, that's the pace of the city. That's the pace of the city. Okay. So that's, that's one reference. Okay.

And then the other reference is after we, it was a month trip. And after about two weeks, there was one place that we, it was like a summer palace or something, but it was maybe in Tianjin or something where we walked in and it was sweltering. It was the summertime and they had Coca-Cola.

And we looked at that like that bottle of whiskey. Like this is, oh my God. Yeah. After two weeks, you know, that was the most Western thing we saw in two weeks ago. There's a photo of that too. I recently came across, I'll look it up, but like a photo of like in Beijing, like someone seeing a bottle of Coke for the first time. I mean, like, like,

Like Chinese people love America, right? And love American culture. And we forget that sometimes. Well, they did. I think that sentiment is starting to shift now. Yeah. But that was the seed that, you know, going back to, I think I would use the word already, the gratitude. Because when I was there as a Chinese American, the thing that overwhelmed me was like the awareness and the recognition that I could be any one of them.

And truly, like, the people I was meeting, the young people,

the limo driver, like the tour guide. And so they were about my age, maybe late 20s, early 30s. And they were treating me like I was a celebrity. And I remember one, we arrived in one city, this guy shook my hand. And he was like, eyes were full and he just said, congratulations. Yeah, that's what he said. Wait, wait, wait, I'm a little lost. Why? Why? Because... Because he made it. Yes, because I was from America and he wasn't.

And that was that moment where it was like, congratulations, you can do anything you want. You have any opportunity and things like that. And consistently, people were so excited to talk to me and see me, like what it would be like to be you. And so I remember, like, I started feeling, the word is ashamed, right?

ashamed because up until that point I was just coasting I was I didn't really care about anything I was like just uh Just date living day to day and and I really realized that like any one of these guys like I

Maybe, you know, their left arm for no guarantee, but just opportunity. And maybe they, what would they be doing instead? They'd be working hard, maybe studying, maybe doctors. I mean, I don't know. Like be killed to have your... Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Your pedigree, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. Or just to, you know, which was a foreign concept. It was a dream to them to have an opportunity to choose what you want to do.

And they were doing the best of their generation. If you wanted to speak English and try to experience something more international. Yeah. It was, I always refer to it as my awakening. That trip was my awakening, you know, like that. Yeah. Like you won the lottery. Yeah. You literally won the lottery. I mean, cause imagine any, like that was like the pinnacle of the U S right at that point. And so like,

someone who looks just like the eighties and nineties. Yeah. Like, and someone who looks, well, I think in the seventies, like it just started, like, you know, there's like, there wasn't even an awareness. People weren't even worried about that shit. They're just worried about, you know, you know, having food to eat. Right. You get to the eighties and nineties, there's television, there's Coca-Cola, McDonald's. I mean, like we are like the paragon of culture at that point. And, you know, um,

Like he looks just like the people on the street. - Yeah. - But he's got all fancy clothes, can you imagine? And like, compared to the people. - Walking around in a tuxedo and top hat. - Like compared to the people, like I could just imagine like the awe. - Like I said, their energy and the way they looked at me, like was like I was a celebrity.

Like I was a celebrity. So it wasn't so much jealousy. It was more like a respect. Not at all. I don't even say respect. It was just admiration. More like admiration. Something like that. I totally can see that. Yeah, yeah. You know, my mom moved to China in the mid-90s. And that was when I first witnessed China. When she moved here, I came to visit her.

And even then, I mean, I don't know when you guys first time you came to China, but for me, it was the mid nineties, mid to late nineties. And yeah, what you were saying about walking around and feeling very different, even though you look like the same as the people here, um,

I felt the same thing. It's like people would be staring and like coming up to you and being like, Hey, what's your name? You know, like just trying to talk to me in Chinese. And I'm like, I don't speak Chinese, you know? And yeah, just same thing. Or like I'd be sitting at a table having dinner and then everybody walks by just staring and just like as if I was a foreigner, you know, like a real foreigner. And I think it was just because I was dressed like a skater boy, kind of like, you know, like, you know what I mean? Like got the chain wallet. Yeah. You know what I mean? You know what I'm talking about, right? It was like the nineties look.

Which looked different. I mean, nobody dressed that way. Nobody dressed that way. No, yeah. I mean, I guess just to kind of highlighting the contrast is like going back to when you said the, you know, the person that was giving that talk was like saying, oh, like China's irrelevant to now. You fast forward now where...

European media, US media is obsessed with China. It's not like just relevant. It's like, it's an obsession. It's too, well, right now it's like they're too fucking irrelevant. Too relevant. They're too relevant and we got to cut them down to their size. Like before it was like there were nobody. Now they're like, oh, it's the big bad China and we got to like destroy them, right? It's so crazy how you go from irrelevance to like,

Too relevant. Too relevant. That's a good way of putting it. You're too relevant. But this also goes, I think, to your book. And I want to keep moving on through your other books as well. But it goes back to your book, The New Gold Mountain, is that it's, I mean, in a way, it's kind of flipping from the idea of the American dream, which was, I think, you know, from our parents' generation and earlier on, they would immigrate to the United States to chase that American dream.

Where now you're kind of like shining that beacon back here and be like, hey, there's the Chinese dream now. Well, for our generation, like at that time, at least my generation, you know, so the new Gold Mountain is a play on, you know, you know, Zhou Jingshan, like San Francisco, that's where you would land Ellis Island in the United States. Oh, so that's where they got it from? I didn't know that. Yeah, Zhou Jingshan. Yeah. So, so, you know, that was the land of opportunity. Why is it called Old Gold Mountain? Because it's the land of opportunity. That's why they still call it Golden State.

Why is it called Old Gold Mountain? Let's see. Let's see. Why? Good question. I think they just like to call things old. But right. Like most people probably use San Francisco. Oh, is it because the gold rush happened in the 18th? Like maybe San Francisco wasn't established until after the gold rush. Yeah. Yeah. But anyways, that's, you know, what San Francisco is also known as, Zhongjing San. And so for our generation, in terms of opportunity and development and growth and this kind of window and stuff like that, you know,

And so that's what I was trying to, like you said, shine a light on and try to get more people to recognize and give it a shot. Well, Larry, before I think we get too far ahead of ourselves, can you kind of explain in your own words what it is you do now? So I run a training company now, and it's really the thing that I would say I have a passion for to try to help people pursue and achieve their dreams.

success or career success, whatever that may be to them, right? Like that. And so I'm not judgmental about, you know, if you love money, it's like, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with that because I don't know what you do with your money. Like, but I just want to help people, you know, achieve whatever career goals or objectives or quote unquote success, you know, that they aspire, you know, to achieve.

But my, I would say like my real expertise, if I would say, is in career development and how to accelerate your ability to go higher faster.

Because it's not just about, you know, like achieving like bigger titles and bigger salary and bigger roles and stuff like that. But how to get, accelerate your ability to pursue and achieve whatever objectives you have, you know, like that for your career and career so connected to your life. Usually the career coaching is more B2C, so it's an individual, right? Mm-hmm.

don't want you to talk to their employees and get them in touch with what they really want to do. Re-evaluate it. Why am I here? Why are you here? So it's more like executive coaching, like how to be a better leader within the organization. But,

But the real thing I do and might talk about later is something that has been, you could say, an accumulation of what I've kind of amassed over the last 25 years in terms of my understanding of career development, talent and leadership development. And it's called PLSD and the PLSD approach. It stands for Practical Learning and Skills Development.

which I think is extremely kind of timely for today's day and age where you have to be more nimble. You have to be like, you know, like have a faster learning curve to adapt and change and to be able to take on new challenges. So it's two aspects. One is it's kind of a self-development, like how to drive and manage your own learning and development and therefore career development. And another aspect is like having an entrepreneurial mindset, you know,

which is basically, if you're an entrepreneur, you just have to get what you need. There's not like, okay, can you give this to me, provide this to me? I'm going to call headquarters and stuff like that. But the way I, the line I use is like, what PLSD teaches people and the PLSD approaches, it enables and empowers them to get what you need.

Enable is the ability, empower is the confidence to be proactive, to just go for it and stuff like that and not be what I don't have. Think about, focus on what you have, not what you don't have. Yeah. So that's really interesting. Do you find...

I mean, getting, okay, first of all, sorry, getting what you need is like this proactive mindset. It's not a victim mindset. So like that really comes across. And also ownership. Ownership. It's like higher ownership. Like, you know, instead of waiting for somebody to offer it to you, provide it to you, tell you what you need to do. Yeah. And there's this like, and as you said, there's a skill piece of it and there's a confidence piece. And you mentioned early on that you were targeting a lot of, you know, your approach to like Chinese Americans. Like, can you talk a little bit about

just like the confidence in general and like getting what you want as an Asian American. When we had Tillman, do you know Tillman? Yeah. Okay. Tillman referrals. Okay. Awesome. So like, you

not to get too technical, but like when we talked to Tillman, it was like East Asian culture sometimes can maybe not do that as much, like go out and get what you need, right? Like we kind of are a little bit more deferential and some of these other ego states, right? And so like when you kind of look at Chinese Americans, do you see those themes? And then how maybe did that influence some of your thinking to be a little bit more proactive or aggressive in getting what you want and need? Sure.

So I think in terms of responding to my whole approach to, you know, culture and people's backgrounds and maybe their sensibilities and things like that. So actually my approach is...

you know, if we want to talk about that, let's go have dinner, let's go to a bar and things like that. And, you know, it's a great topic. I'm into it. You know, I'm curious. I want to understand, you know. But if we are talking about performance, like in trying to, in a work or business situation to do something, I don't,

Don't require people to have like a prerequisite understanding of human nature or your background or your history or anything like that I'm going to try to teach you Practical habits that just cut across everything that are help you get a result a simple one is um Ask more questions or learn to ask good questions to the right people right like that. I think if you do that and

You know, in any situation, your ability, your learning curve, your ability to understand things, your ability to pursue and achieve a solution or to solve a problem is going to be better. Now, do you want to say that asking questions is cultural, you know, like that? Well, I think that Chinese people are not used to it, but I think if you're talking about being successful,

you should learn to do that. But I have people, they say, well, I understand the Chinese education system. Read this, study this, memorize this, and stuff like that. And they're not asked for like, oh, what do people think? But

In the real world, the business world, you need to have that skill set if you want to have success. Or at least if you want to be more than a taskmaster, just like at a function individual contributor. If you want to be a leader, if you want to kind of contribute to complex business situations, deliver solutions, yeah, yeah. You need to understand things. You need to get information, you know, things like that. From my understanding, your whole methodology of the –

practical learning and skills development is actually more targeted towards local Chinese people, professionals, right? Rather than people from overseas. That's correct. And particularly, but to Eric's, you know,

So when I think about Westerners, it's like, does this apply to Westerners? I think anybody that maybe is feeling maybe that there's a gap between their current situation and a situation they want to be more successful in or to better achieve is

then it's about like if you look at people anywhere that like what are their best practices, you could say, you know, like that. And I try to like break it down in its simplest form and the two kind of like simple and effective ways.

That's going to be pretty practical. I want to know the simple way, but it's effective. And that's what I want to use. Well, in other words, I think Eric brought up this concept before from a book that he's read. And ever since he's mentioned it on the show, it's really always stuck with me. It's the idea of the one thing.

And you try to boil everything down or different more complex ideas or abstract ideas into like one simple thing that kind of ties everything together. And if you just do that one thing, kind of it helps a lot of other things just fall into place naturally. Yeah. By the way, so within PLSD, you know, so it's within this PLSD approach, there are PLSD principles, insights, and habits. And one of the insights, a very basic one that applies to everything, it's called the top three of anything.

you know and basically says the top three of anything represents about eighty percent of what something's about AKA the key success factors so when you're talking about the one thing I like the top three now there might be a list like I want to be a better leader if I want to figure out how to do something there might be you know 10 things I should think about but let's focus on the top three they're called key success factors for a reason you don't like that and so

In your communication, what are the three main key points that you want the other person to understand? For problem solving, what are the three main things that, you know, key success factors for addressing this situation, right? Yeah. For leadership, what are the top three things you want to make sure you do to be a better, more effective leader? Like, you're literally, like, breaking it down into something that is both impactful and actionable. Yeah. And it's like, I mean, I always kind of think of this stuff.

as like working out. So like, imagine you just started going to the gym. Of course. You look straight at Justin. He brings everything. He brings all his analogies back to working out. We haven't, you guys haven't dogged on me for that in a long time. Because then we'd be doing it every episode and it gets old. No, no. Cause I was, you know, I was focusing on other elements of my learning, but they would dog on me. Right. Anyways. Um,

If you're trying to like learn something new and like working out as an example, and it's very challenging, like imagine you just want to start running, right? We've all had that experience. Many of us like have started running, stopped. We go through this process. We've stopped running for a long time. Anytime you go back into it, it's like you're just starting again. And if you're trying to focus on like 10, 20 different things, like you're not going to get anywhere because like with running, it's like all about building up your cardio, right?

And the key way to build up your cardio is to just do the minimum amount that you can do consistently, no matter what. And people try to build it up too much. Like I got to go run 30 minutes, 40 minutes, 50 minutes. You're never going to do it. Right. You got to start somewhere, which is like you run for three minutes. Right. And then you do it every day or you do it like, you know, three times a week. And then you go to five minutes and seven minutes. And then like before you know it,

You're like, you started running and then you can work on the next thing. But there is a sequence to things because when you're at the beginning of something, your capacity to learn something new is very different than when you're in the middle or advanced stages of something because you haven't built up any of the basic fundamental skills. So it sounds like the success factors also relate to like foundations. Yeah. Yeah.

I go back to, you know, again, just what's going to be effective and have the biggest impact on

on your success, you know, your ability to achieve what you're trying to achieve, right? Like that. And so a lot of times, like say in problem solving, and it's like, you ask them, they don't have a bad, oh, it's complex. It's like, well, why don't you go back and think about, you know, what would be the three important, most important things? And you always, you know, at least attempt to try to identify those things, right? Like that. Well, how do you identify those things? Because I think it's,

It's simple to say, okay, think of the top three things and they represent pretty much most of whatever it is you want. I mean, okay, but how do you actually go about identifying those things? So there's another kind of PLSD insight and it's you don't have to reinvent success. Okay? So...

you know, Howie, your director and whatever your profession, but if I needed to do something, I'm not going to try to figure it out. I'm not going to try and think it. I'm just going to go like, and going back to learn to ask good questions, right? People, Hey, Howie, I need to do this. And so he's experienced, successful and expert in it. And I'll just pick his head.

Joking, joking. But I'll just pick his brain, and I've done this before. So you don't have to reinvent success. There are three things. I was like, you don't know anything about it. Don't think about, like, how to figure it out. Think about who knows about it, who does it well, where do you find a good example? So that's how you find it. Who knows about it? Who does it well, and where do you find a good example? And that's why I teach people, like, you know, get outside your own head. Yes.

Get outside your own head and into the head of others who do well what you want to do well, who understand, you know, very deeply and clearly what you want to understand better. Yeah, like that. And that can save you so much time and effort and wasted energy. It's called being resourceful. And that's what entrepreneurs do. We don't try to, like, you don't get extra bonus points in the real world because you figured it out, you know?

No, you just like if you can get the result or if you can achieve the... It's binary in that sense, right? It's like either you get it done or you don't. I feel like that's the biggest problem for micromanagers, for people who's always constantly... It's really difficult to just let things go and trust other people to do things that maybe that are more effective than I can do. You know what I mean? So what you're saying right there, I think is a big...

mentality shift for a lot of people that is very important. Well, they say that the most difficult, you could say, transition in your career happens from going from individual contributor to a manager. Because as an individual contributor, you rely on yourself, what I know, what I can do, how hard I work and stuff like that. But as a leader, right, a manager, you're leading

other people your you're given objectives and results that can only be achieved by a team and the tendency a lot of are arm you know new leaders is they still rely on themselves because I can do it faster I can do it better what you can but

You know, you can't achieve the objectives. You can't scale that. You can't scale it, right, like that. So your job as a leader is support other success to achieve your success, right? Like that's the concept of a leader. And I think like there are two concepts and how we hit on like a second concept that's quite interesting. The first one that you spoke about earlier is that, okay, so I need to go achieve something. I have goals, but there's a gap.

between like my skill or confidence level to being able to do this. And so like, rather than like, just, you know, like,

trying to figure it out myself. These things have all been figured out, right? Like, I mean, like none of us are trying to be like... Don't reinvent the wheel. Yeah. Why waste that time? You don't have to reinvent success. Yeah. And none of us are trying to be like the smartest person who ever existed in history, right? And so most of our goals are actually fairly reasonable. It's not like we're trying to beat Jordan. We're just trying to be like successful. And so there's been many, many, many successful people. And so you just learn from them. Yeah. And...

And then I think to Howie's point, it's like, then when you're leading a team, how do you scale the capabilities of the team? Like you need to let go a little bit and then like hire people that are better than you in like different areas, but then have this vision of bringing them together. Yeah.

By the way, this whole thing, which is related to kind of maybe being a better leader or kind of your learning and development, but it definitely applies to your career development if you want to accelerate that. And a lot of people are lost, but, you know,

Again, how to ask good questions to the right people. I really emphasize in PLSD three basic, like build the habits, you know, kind of ask more questions, engage others more, learn from others, you know, that you'll learn faster and get more involved, right? Like that. Now, a lot of these are not things that Chinese people

professionals, it doesn't kind of jive with their upbringing, right? They're told what to do. So in terms of asking questions, no, they're waiting for people to tell them what to do, engaging others more, you know, it's like maybe more polite or more, I don't know, just more

Beat around the bush. Yeah, or just engaging, like, approaching, like, the approach instead, and then just getting involved. You know, so the whole proactive thing, I mean, if there's maybe one thing that, like, at least the companies, when they bring me in, it's like, you know, trying to, like...

my training or my workshops and this PLSD approach to help get their even leaders to go beyond their comfort zone to take on new challenges like that. I just want to interject for a second because what you just said right there, it really hits home to me, not in the way that I'm in a corporation and I'm going through it with my superiors or people below me.

I'm saying it more as a director when I'm working with clients. There are certain type of clients that I work with that are very well known in the industry where you're going to basically have to deal with difficult management because the

The managers don't have all the say or final say in the projects that they're overseeing. They have to listen to their superior or their 老板, you know what I mean, or their 主管. And usually these 主管 or 老板, they come in with totally different ideas and basically flip the table on certain projects where you're basically wasting money, you're wasting communication, you're just wasting time.

And that happens a lot for a lot of certain type of companies, especially, you know, in our industry, we'll be like, okay, you know, be prepared. This is guoqi. So there's a guoqi way to do it. You know what I mean? So be prepared that you're going to go through, you're going to jump through a lot of hurdles. And at the end of the day, you don't know what the end is going to be. Yeah. So, I mean,

you would think that that would change because that's not the most effective but on the flip side these companies are successful so how do you explain that I want to know yeah

I acknowledge politics, bureaucracy, you know, just kind of self-interest and things like that. But those tend not to be the executives that I work with or the type of companies. The type of companies I work with, there's been a fundamental shift in their industry. Maybe the market's gotten more mature or their product is now kind of,

just getting outdated. And so they have to change. They're at an inflection point where they need to, as a company, as a business, do something significantly different or differently. And they're self-aware of that. Yeah. Yes, they are. Because otherwise, because they see their business just kind of going like that and they're under pressure. So I

The companies that tend to engage me, there's a combination of need for change and urgency. Right?

Right. So they don't have time for bullshit, if you want to say, you know, and those type of companies are much more transparent. You know what I'm saying? Because they can't tolerate people just like, you know, in the way because the boat is is in rough waters and it's sinking. And China has been a great market where, you know, the way I would put it is that

So many of us and talking about this kind of miracle economy, we have benefited from being in the right place at the right time. Frankly, the wind has been blowing for everybody, but in different levels, it's kind of slowed down. And now you can really see now who are the outstanding ones or who are the ones that are really good as opposed to, you know, just kind of being in the right place at the right time. Yeah. Yeah. I like, I think that's interesting, right? Like in terms of

there is the factor of bureaucracy, politics, self-interest, like in any business.

And those will play a role up to a certain point. But then when the survival of the company is at stake, then you cut through the bullshit. Because I ran a recruitment firm for many, many years, right? And I've seen the resumes that are on paper. They went to a really good school and they worked for like a top multinational company for like 20 years. But you meet them and you're so underwhelmed. You're so underwhelmed.

They were successful. They're at director's or VP level, but they're just kind of like, their success is just based on a specific project

process or specific environment or specific relationships that they have. But I'm a recruiter, so it's about moving them into another environment. And are they able? Do they have a growth mindset? Are they able to kind of figure things out? No, they've just been running things. Is this where the soft skills come in? Absolutely. Because soft skills tend to be more transferable, right? Like communication skills are

will benefit you. Well, can you define soft skills first? So soft skills are...

They could be capabilities or qualities. But I always say that soft skills, like they can't be measured like an exam or a test. Like so technical skills, it's more knowledge, right? Or function like information or expertise. But soft skills are like communication skills, problem solving skills. Very, very transferable. It could be project management skills like that. It could be

Things like professionalism, open-minded, proactive, curious, right? You know, just accountability, you know, qualities that just are things that can't be necessarily measured. Like you take an exam. Or quantified. Yeah, quantified. And you get a certificate. And that means I have that level of knowledge. How do you assess something like a growth mindset?

So, related to that and the way you assess soft skills, which became our thing, because when I entered the, like, started my recruitment firm, right, the typical recruiter was just checking boxes. Oh, he went to a good university. He's got an MBA. Well, that's a check. Yeah, yeah, that's a check. He's been doing this in a famous company for so many years. Yeah.

and then not only the recruiter but the employer that they're very simplistic and then there were many many bad hiring decisions because they weren't what you would think they would be what they should be on paper so going back Eric to like how do you qualify soft skills so for instance if I say we need somebody a very proactive and solutions-oriented and say Justin you go like oh that's me I do that job I got a real I'm very proactive I said give me an example

Give me an example, right? And based on how... Crickets. Yeah, crickets. I don't know what that means, but Justin, that seemed to hit a... What I mean is like, you know, it's like, you know, crickets are...

No, he's literally using me as the example. It's like no response. Go on, go on. Don't mind him. So what you claim, and it's like if you're really that good at or solutions-oriented, can you give me an example of that where you had to solve a problem and it's like, and I want to know your process. So if you really did it and you're really good at it, I can ask you follow-up question after follow-up question. And you would just have them loaded in? Yes, it would be because...

It's yours. And you can see when people are telling a story, because if I ask you, and I see you hesitate, or I see you go like that, or pause, let me think, that's a long time ago. It's like, really?

This is how people are really good at something or do something. It's kind of second nature. You ask him to do stuff on the spot. Yeah, like that. It's not pre-planned, like a scripted thing. If you asked Howie how to direct a film, he'd probably have to get back to you a few days later with an email. He'd be like, sorry, my VPN's not working. I can't consult you on GBT. He would have to get back to you with an email that's pre-thought out.

and he wouldn't be able to answer on the spot. But people who are really good at what they do. And so also how impressive the achievement is. I always say achievements are the proof. And of course, if you say you're really good at this, then you should be able to give me an example that I think is...

pretty impressive in terms of your ability to do it. Yeah. And nobody gives like, that's my third most impressive example of leadership or of problem solving. I'm building up to it. Yeah, I'm building up to it. I'm being humble and modest. Yeah, yeah. Like how he's like, the first line is like, you know, direct Steven Spielberg-esque. Yeah. So that's interesting. So when...

When you then assess that, you've obviously then met tons and tons and tons of people. So like, is there something about kind of capturing, you know, the learnings from lots and lots and lots of interviews? And then like, how do you follow the candidates to know that they actually succeeded or failed later? Right? Do you bring that back into a feedback loop?

Um, so here's, I guess I would say this. So when I was running Wong and Lee, you know, our, um, our, uh, kind of a logo board of our clients were really top, top clients, you know, no, you know,

their lifeline was talent. They needed to have the best talent, the right talent. And we were a boutique company and to be on their vendor list, we have to deliver the goods. So in terms of a feedback loop, I would say they would just keep coming to us with more positions. And so we service like the Nikes and the Microsofts and the city groups and things like that. But

But in a big way, where we really took off is like the Dianpings and Youku. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah. Like Alibaba, Tangshun, Tencent and things like that. Also going back because we were kind of in the flow of the conversation and we moved on, but there was kind of one thing I want to go back to that is interesting to me to think about is the idea of don't,

bust your head against the wall trying to like reinvent like successful models that already exist right um don't reinvent the wheel right like there are more effective and efficient ways like shortcuts to do things and get what you need yeah then trying to be like this like uh pioneer right yeah and something and i think that's i think that's really true because i think we're conditioned um

You know, I think maybe part of one of the maybe negative things of all this abundance and accessibility of information these days is that the idea of being like the maverick or the idea of being like the one in a million guy or girl gets like really romanticized, right? And we think like, oh, if you want to be a successful business person,

Like that's what you have to be. You have to be like, go against the grain, be the disruptor, you know, just do things completely outside the box of what anyone else has done before.

And I think that gets really romanticized and it gets to a point where like we fall in love with that idea because it's really cool, right? If you can be that. And I want to take it back to the soft skills idea because that's, I think, kind of your own personal journey. From what I understand, when you first started off, you had mentioned you were an engineer. Yeah.

And you were, what kind of engineering were you? Mechanical engineer, and my first job was in R&D. Yeah. I was an R&D engineer. So from what I know, because I knew a few engineers growing up, they're lacking on the soft skills department, most of them. Would that describe you back then? Yeah, I would absolutely say, yeah.

quite weak in communication skills, you know, people skills. I was very self-conscious, shy, never spoke out, you know, like that. And so, you know, I had that awakening going to China, and the result of that was I quit my engineering job to pursue a business career. Yeah, I wanted to be a business man. Not that I know what that was or, like, how I was going to navigate that, but, you know, as a business person, you need to be more well-rounded.

And you're really relying on a lot of soft skills and stuff like that. Yeah. So part of like PLSD is not just like my research and meeting and talking to and seeing so many variations of success and who are the ones that are able to do it better at

than others and what exactly are they doing more and better. But my own personal journey too, to go from this kind of like classic R&D, Chinese American male math and science, you know, yeah. And, you know, in that world to transition and kind of acquire these skills, you know, that I needed, essential to be more successful in another kind of

- I want to talk about something that's very personally relatable to me. And it goes back to a big part of what you identify as yourself is a career development coach, right? Like you're developing careers and a lot of what we've already been talking about obviously contributes to someone improving and developing their own career for sure. What we haven't talked about though is

Let's say for someone that's lost, right? They're not on any particular path that they know that they want to be on already, right? They're lost and they feel like they're starting from scratch. Mm-hmm.

And they don't really know necessarily what they want to do with their life, like what their purpose is. Do you do any of that? Do you help with any of that kind of like career development in terms of really starting from zero? For sure. Like life coaching? I would say figuring out your career, right? So, you know, I'll just give a couple of quick just references to...

the process I try to help people through, you know. So the first one is like their current situation, you know, like that. So you talk about like, they can't figure out what they want to do. But I think the first step for a lot of us, and including myself, is like, let's eliminate the thing we don't want to do. You know, like, so I was an R&D engineer. I don't know what I want to do, but I know what I'm doing now. It's a great job and stuff like that. But

I work for a great company. I make a decent living and I'm on a track and stuff like that. But it doesn't – I have no connection to it, right? And so the first thing is acknowledging and trying to recognize like why you're disconnected to it. And I always talk about elements. Like why is it?

Okay, engineering is very analytical. It's technical, right? And it's a lot of sitting in front of the computer doing like this. I don't know if you can tell, even though I describe myself as shy, but I like people. I like...

I feel a connection with people. People bring out the best in me like that. So that was, that's the first thing I try to get people to do is to recognize their true selves, their true selves. And so what are the elements that you would say define your true self? And then they'll say things like, you know, I want to kind of like me, be more creative or I want to help, you

have an impact or help people achieve things or something, something like that. Or I want to help the environment or whatever, you know? And so I always tell people like where people get stuck a lot is they're trying to figure out the destination, the goal. But I talk about like direction more. And I talk about just pick a good road to travel because it's going to be, if you're trying to figure out a winding road,

Most people's career are a winding road. With a lot of detours, probably. Yeah, yeah. And the thing about a winding road is you cannot see here until you get to here, this corner. You have to round the next corner, right? So identify elements that, like, whatever situation or whatever you're doing, those elements are there.

strong or a part of that. So if you look at my career and the situation I've been a part of, they look totally disconnected. So I have R&D engineering and then I work for a toy company and then I work for a computer company and then I work for a consulting firm and now I'm in the talent industry. But

If you understand the elements that I identified early in my career, and that's what I try to help people identify, it makes sense. So the elements that matter to me is one is kind of business instead of technical manufacturing engineering. The second element is people.

People, right? Like something very people-oriented, but that's a big range, right? And then later it become more like helping people, and that's still a big range, right? And then the third element was China, right? So I made choices that go counter to what maybe 9 out of 10 people, maybe, you know, 99 out of 100 would make.

But I made those choices because they were strong in the elements that mattered to me. And that's another thing that I'm constantly emphasizing. It's all about fit. Everything is relative. There is no good and bad job or good and bad career choices or career moves or job moves.

It's relative to your personality, your interest, your definition of success, and what you want to see your success look like. Well, how do you identify those things? Like for someone, because I think- We should use Justin as an example, actually. I think for people who are stuck in this position, and yes, I am speaking from personal experience. Mm-hmm.

It's all well and good to be like, yeah, you know, go with what you're passionate about, what drives you, what brings you energy. And it all makes sense. Like, yeah, I would love to do that. But I feel like sometimes you get stuck in this area where you just draw a blank. Like, you know, there's a larger purpose for you. You know that you can contribute. You know, you know, you can contribute somewhere except that.

And part of it is maybe you're passionate about too many things, right? So you don't know what to settle on. And so you get this feeling of being lost or you're caught in this position of like not even being able to decide. How do you help people with that? I think... So I would say like...

In a journey, you're going to make choices. And along the journey, you grow. You grow. So the key is to move forward in the right direction, right? Travel the right road, right? So I'll give you a good example. Like keep moving. Yeah, forward in the right direction, you know, like that.

So a good example is like after I got my MBA, I took a job with Wang Computers. So it's a computer company, a hardware company. And I wanted to do marketing. And I had offers with J&J and Kraft, which are FMCG, the four Ps of marketing. If you really want to do marketing, you should –

Go there. Join those companies. But I joined Wang Computers. Why would I do that? You know, computer companies, except for Apple, are not known to be strong in marketing. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, that worked for me quite well. My last name. It was his company. Because of my last name. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I chose it because the guy that hired me was the executive VP for Asia Pacific.

Pacific. I have zero interest in computers, you know, like that. And most people know me like I'm a technology, you know, kind of like an idiot. But it would get me closer to, you know, my ultimate, I wanted to be in Asia. And these other jobs were about the US market and stuff like that. So it's

It's like what I might say to you, Justin, is that you're not going to hit a home run. You're not going to figure it out now. But, you know, you need to maybe get into a situation that offers you more of.

Not what you want, but more of. Because you can't figure out what you want right now. You don't know what it is. You just get closer and closer. And you don't know how long that's going to take. So I'm just on the journey and I identify something that is going to energize me.

And just as a next step. And I don't worry about like, I overthink. Yes, I don't. And a lot of people, like when they talk about career planning, the first thing is you got to identify an objective. It's like, you know, but I always emphasize direction. Just a good direction, a good road to travel like that. And then just enjoy the journey. And everyone will tell you that. It's really just a journey. You know, the destination is,

you know, first of all, it's, it's a very short time there because once you get there, there's another destination, you know, like that. So, so it's really more focused on the journey. Well, I mean, that totally makes sense. Right. Like, and then bringing these things together, because like we all sort of, I think we all have this issue, right? Like, I mean, if you, if you went out and surveyed everyone and you asked them, like, do you do what you, like your life's

Like 99.9% of people probably wouldn't say that. Even the ones that like are doing something really meaningful would probably be very critical, right? And not content or grateful, you know, for the moment, but like to unpack it a little bit. So where I think that you were very insightful and maybe this is why you then got into a career of advising others, because as you figured out an insight that most of us just kind of miss, right?

which was that if you figured out the things that you gravitate towards, right, you might not know what that end place is, but you're for sure not going to go to the places that are not going to offer these things. So like you didn't want to go into computers because you like people, right? You wanted to go to Asia. So even though like all these other, you know, top companies wanted you for marketing, right?

you were like, nah, I'm gonna, you know, I wanna, like this EVP of Asia PAC for Wayne Computers is hiring. I'm gonna go work for him. It's gonna take me closer because that directionally, you didn't know like what you're gonna be doing in Asia, but that's where you wanted to get. And then you made this comment that I think was like brilliant. And it echoes like,

I think you're not the only one that's saying this, but I think a lot of smart people are saying this stuff. There's other authors and stuff that say the same thing, right? And they just came at it from their own direction.

But you said that you made decisions based on these key filters. We call them elements. Elements, elements, right? Yeah. Because they're directional. And like, Justin, you can't, you won't be like, I have no idea. You would have an idea. Like what are two or three things that you care about? Right? Like we could definitely come with that. And that would be something that Larry would help someone like us with. Right?

But then what's really fascinating is that you made decisions that were sort of counterintuitive. Yeah, absolutely. Like that went against the grain because you prioritized people in Asia over Europe.

All of these other elements that nine out of 10 or 99 out of a hundred people would have chosen based on sort of like what's on paper. And by doing so, you gave yourself a shot to then be in Asia and then you found your calling. And so like, if you're like constantly moving away from what,

is your DNA, you're never gonna fucking get there. And that's why a lot of people, like they go through their life, like 10, 20 years. And then when they get that aha moment, then they figure it out. And I think that's why you need a coach. You need a coach to help you step back and find some of the key principles that,

And then unpack that with you individually and then start moving you in the right direction. One of the things that I always tell people is like whatever choices you make in your life and moves, nobody's putting a gun to your head and telling you you have to do these. But, you know, of course, in reality, we feel the society pressure, family pressure, peer pressure and all sorts of stuff like that. One of the things, Eric, I didn't mention is like I made that choice to join Wang Computers. 30% less salary.

Oh, wow. And also, you know, when you graduate from a top MBA program, you're usually entering as a manager, like a manager title. And I was hired as a management trainee. And trust me, that was like, hey, hey. Like a shot to the ego. So your peers, your peers were giving you shit. Well, what about your family? Not so much like... Having Asian parents were funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, my ego... Exactly, the ego. My ego was taking a huge hit. And then the EVP, he said, Larry...

I can't guarantee you anything, but I can say that if you want to go to Asia and that's your thing, I can make it happen. But going back to, you know, one of the qualities that I really recognize that when it's all said and done, it's like...

A lot of people try to please other people, what looks good to other people. It's that peer pressure. I really don't care because I know it's me looking at myself down the road. Like, did I have the courage? Was this what I believed in? When you're laying on your deathbed, all that matters is how you feel about it.

But, you know, like, like this is what I, at least I tried my best. And I, I don't want to say it's a sellout to, to, to take jobs for money and titles and because they're famous companies and things like that. But,

But it just depends on how you're built. Some people are just, you know, want to have a solid life. But if you're that type of person that wants to have a quote unquote great life, you know, like that, or the type of life of purpose, then, you know, it's a really internal thing. It's totally an internal thing. And that's like,

- The tricky thing, I think with like life decisions, right? Like in the moment they might seem totally counterintuitive as you put it. - Yeah. - But in hindsight, they make perfect sense. - Oh, by the way, they're really, I think what you just said is so, I always tell people like what I do is like what I was meant to do, but it didn't, I didn't say that until I got there. - Yeah. - Because along the way, one of the things I, so I entered the talent industry through this recruitment company.

The idea to start the recruitment company happened literally two weeks before I started. I never had the thought before that.

But because I was staying true and all of a sudden all the pieces just clicked. You know what I'm saying? Like everything I did led up to this point. It wasn't out of the blue. It seems out of the blue. It seemed out of the blue. But you had been like, it went all the way back to you except having the conversation with the EVP. All the dots were connecting because everything was an emotion because at that moment, X number of years ago, you already had a thought in your head. So if the thing doesn't exist in your head, it's not going to happen. Yeah, yeah.

And so then it was like what I've been doing, I say this talent, it's just the last 30 years. And people who knew me before, and even people, they're like, you're energy, Larry. You're energy for what we can tell you have this passion, which is totally opposite of what I was in the first half of my life, which was just going through the motions and just trying to enjoy my life. And I was super relaxed and just like,

I was easygoing. That's what it was like. But now I have this purpose that I want to be great at what I do, and I want to have an impact. Every day, there are things that I want to get better at and stuff like that. One of my big takeaways right now is the understanding of if you're lost...

don't try to think of that final destination, that final objective. It's way too complicated. - It's complicated. - Especially when you're talking about life. - Too much pressure, you feel like a loser. - Well, it's almost impossible. - It's impossible. - When you put it into a context of a person's life, right? There's too many variables over too long of a period of time. But it's more just like, okay, well, it's like, think about walking, right? Like, I'm not gonna think of the destination first. I'm gonna think about my next step.

That one step. That's right. Right? Where is my next step going to be? And as long as that one step is more or less, it doesn't, it's, accuracy is not so important then, but more or less in the general direction. In the right, more the right direction, more the right direction. Right direction. Instead of kind of staying kind of detoured and, and kind of just like, I don't know, um,

How would you say? Like just something that is good enough for now or something like that. Well, how do you on a personal level manage risk? Because I think everything we're talking about, it's great, right? And it's inspiring. Yeah. But in reality, there's always a certain level of risk. And for some people, given their life circumstances, there's more risk than others. And for them to kind of break the mold or break that routine to actually...

Start looking for, okay, what drives them? What moves them? What is the next step? Okay, I know what I don't want to do now. Now I need to go in the other direction to kind of break out of whatever system they're in or pattern they're in. Inevitably, there is elements of risk to their livelihood, right? So-

How do you manage that? What would you say to that? So I think that you do have to really assess your situation. What is your tolerance for risk and beyond you? So to me, maybe even think like, what is risk? Is risk going for something that I think is the right thing to do? Or is the risk staying in a place that is not going to make me happy?

You know what I'm saying? Like when I was an engineer, the bigger thing that I was most afraid of was not failing, was not my life not changing. Yeah. Because there was no upside to it. I was just going through the motions. And I remember I was like 26 or something like that. I was like, I get up every day. I'm not excited about anything. I get to the office. I watch the clock.

And I go like, oh, my God, is this what – I'm in the prime of my life. Is this what it feels like? This can't be it. I didn't know what it should be, but I know it's not this. And I felt like 26, I feel like I'm 56. Tired, I'm like unmotivated and stuff like that. So I felt the bigger risk. I'd rather step out and do something that at least has an upside, give me a chance. Yeah.

to change my situation than to maintain my situation. Like the risk is higher, like sometimes to not doing anything. Something like that. Yeah. And I talk about that. I talk about activity. Make something happen that is a step in the direction of where you're trying to go. And recognize, again, going back to the journey thing like that. Your book, Know the Game, Play the Game, right? That really stood out to me as well. Mm-hmm.

What is the game? So, to me, it's success, you know? And I don't mean your company's success. Like, I think we're all in it because we want to be quote-unquote successful, whatever that may mean to you.

Take care of my, like buy a big house, take care of my parents, send my kids to a good school, like a recognition, title, I don't know, whatever it is. But to me, it's like if you're going to be successful, here's the thing about success. You don't promote yourself. You don't give yourself a higher salary. You don't give yourself new opportunities. If you're going to join a multinational company, and I wrote this book for Chinese professionals,

then don't complain to me about, oh, you know, it's like they say we should do this and this, but our education system, listen, you joined this environment that, you know, you should recognize what the key success factors are according to people that can impact your success, you know? But a lot of people maybe are too much in their head or not, you know, about, well, it's not my habit. Well, it's not my upbringing. It's like,

Listen, you joined this company, it's a multinational company, so they need you to be more open, they need you to be more proactive, they need you to speak out. - Is that like a lack of ownership kind of thing? - I would say it's a lot of things, you know, it's just not the sensibilities, like the way that people are brought up in the education system here.

It's, you know, grades, it's information, rote memory and things like that. So, you know, even like leadership is like, you can't be a leader unless you understand team. And in the Chinese education system, particularly when I wrote that book, it's about individual excellence. Right.

my, you know, Gaucal exam score, right? And I don't need anybody else to, you know, it's how hard I study, my knowledge and what I learn and stuff like that. So, you know, but if you're in the business world and you're going to be a leader, then you have to recognize that, you know, you have to care about other people's success, you know, like that. It's like the game changes, a whole different game and you got to learn it. The success factors to be successful are

as a leader is different from an individual contributor. But the individual contributor success is an extension of your academic success.

It's what you know, what you do, how hard you work, how hard you study. But as a leader, you know, you have to think about, like, go beyond and care more about, like, how do I make this guy better or that guy better, you know, their success. By the way, which is counterintuitive to a lot of, you know, Chinese, like, if I help you, you're going to be better than me.

Yeah. And then I sell them. It's like, hey, you know, you talk to an executive and it's like, what's more important to me or more valuable to me than having one super salesperson or one amazing technical person? Well, maybe it's one person who can develop and lead 10 super sales or 10, you know, like, because if, if, if, if, um, say we work together,

And all the people around me are kind of learning and I'm kind of giving them what I have.

You know, these people at higher levels, they're not at higher levels for, you know, because they don't know anything. It's like, oh, this guy should be leading more people because he can amplify the whatever, you know, success or skills that we need to be more successful. Well, it's like the manager is still thinking as an individual contributor. They're still thinking like they're still being evaluated by the criteria criteria.

that individual contributor and not actually seeing the game down the road. That's right. So what I was trying to do is kind of like just help them recognize what professionalism means and what leadership means and why you want to be proactive and why you want to be team-oriented or what that means and that these things are rewarded.

are rewarded, you know, you're not penalized for it and things like that. So the whole know the game, play the game is because like a lot of people, when they enter kind of more of a, like a global, like a multinational company, global caliber, that's the first time they've been exposed to these sensibilities and things like that. Is there a particular skill, right, that you find Chinese people generally are most lacking in?

Is there a common pattern you see? I think... I identify... Like, I probably have a list of about 12 here, but... And then people ask me whether the top three, you know, like that. So...

I think communication skills, just in general, and it's not just to China, but in any situation, your ability, communication skills has to do with motivating, attracting, kind of advising and kind of influencing. That has such an impact.

On your ability to get a better result in any situation. And it includes learning things faster, understanding things quicker, you know. So that's one. And then problem solving skills, you know, problem solving. Because particularly in an age where things are changing and you have to do things differently or better, right? Then it means not just going like this. It means going from here to here, which is more of building something rather than just running something. Is there like kind of one quick...

tip you have in terms of a shortcut, in terms of maybe improving your communication, improving your problem solving and so forth? Okay. So my big tip, so in PLSD, I have this like, kind of like this, how to communicate or like how to communicate more effectively in any business situation. And the number one tip I give in particular to people is that

Half the process for communicating more effectively happens before you even say anything.

A lot of people think communication is about speaking, talking, but good communicators, the first thing they do is try to understand the situation audience. Basically what comes out of your mouth is a reflection of what goes on in your head. And so, you know, thinking, you know, and not just like think before you speak, but really like the keyword is understanding, really understanding. And that will,

the quality of whatever you say to be more on point, on target, right? Like hit the hot button or the thing that the other person will respond to. That's really good. That's like before you even start talking, most of the communication has already kind of been laid down already.

I never thought about it that way. Yeah. And for problem solving, I always say, you know, and it's similar and it's kind of related. If you want to do something well, understand it well first. So most people, when they solve a problem, they're thinking about the solution. But there's a very famous Einstein quote. He said, if I have an hour, I'm facing a situation where I have an hour to live and my life depended on

on what solution I come up with, he goes, "I spend 55 minutes thinking about the right questions to ask to really understand the problem, and then I know what the solution should be." So when it comes to problem solving, it's about if you want to do something well, understand it well first. So good problem solvers, the first thing they're doing, they're not pursuing solutions. They're really trying to really understand root cause,

and the key success factors. If you know the root cause, then you're going to be more accurate on identifying and focusing on the key success factors. So that's all I try to do is get people to recognize themselves, you know, like that. Because a lot of people, they're too influenced.

by, again, like external factors getting you confused. I've seen this and heard this so, so, so many times, but just really to, yeah, recognize yourself. It starts like that. And then you can make choices.

Then you could go like, well, there's too much pressure. Oh, I got a family. Oh, I think it's not, I can't take the risk and stuff like that. It's like, okay, but you know, at least you kind of know. And so sometimes I'll be coaching people and they've, it's not that they, they,

Kind of like, or keep searching, but they kind of, how do I say, more accepting of their situation. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, it's like, you know, yeah, maybe it's not the right time, or...

Right now, I have other things that are higher priority. And they can feel that way because of the self-reflection and the awareness. That's right. Yeah, yeah. It's almost like a catharsis, right? Yeah. It's always like that. I have so many, like, well, okay, I don't know.

I don't want to get sexist, but mostly female. But they start tearing up. I'm just talking to them and they just start tearing up and crying because it's like- It's like a therapy session. Yeah. A lot of times it really is. Because they're so constrained trying to respond to what they think is the right thing. And so in a way, it kind of helps them break free and to-

At least to see it, and then the next step is what you want to do, and it's up to you. Well, and I think that that is connected to, you know, the female role in society, like, in a negative way, in the sense that, like, there's so many more expectations that are put on females unfairly. So there's all these influences, as you say, all these voices, right?

Right. That have been put on them by different societies. Well, males have different type of. Yeah, different pressures. But I think that there's a lot of like hidden pressures on females. And then these conflicts sort of happen and it's sort of helping them understand like what voices are coming from society and what voices are coming from their parents.

Look, I think a lot of how we talk about these things and finding yourself, finding your career, finding your path, finding success, whatever these key terminologies are, it's based on this idea of like, look, you're not good enough right now and you need to change and get to a better spot for yourself, which is probably true for a lot of us.

But that's not the only path and that's not the only way of success and story, right? Like, I think a lot of these pressures that Eric was alluding to, whether they're pressures on the male or female,

They can sometimes distort our own perception of our own situations and make it seem like, oh, there's this whole other thing I need to be doing. When maybe for some of us, hey, like what you're doing is really good. It's fine. Yeah, it's fine. And if you're happy and like, and, but like we, we get to the, it's like almost like the grass is greener.

Right. Like, like you don't appreciate it because you're not there and you never appreciate what you have in the moment. Right. And you always think the grass is greener on the other side. And we get stuck in this world with all this input and all this influence from all these things around us that we're taking in.

And we get the feeling that all of a sudden, oh my God, I'm not doing enough. I'm not good enough. You know, I'm not where I should be. When maybe like, hey, like you're fine. You're good. You're fine. It's just the fact that you're even...

hearing that voice or lack of hearing that voice, you're fine. You know, don't overthink it. - Because advertisers don't work that way. They play on your weaknesses, they play on your insecurities to make you feel you need that new thing. - It's not even just advertisers, it's your surroundings, right? It could be your family, it could be your work. - There are so many demands placed on all of us, right? And there are so many agendas.

like if you're an advertising company, you're a society, there's all kinds of, you know, hidden rules. This creates like all these expectations and these expectations are coming from everywhere. And I think like the role of a coach and a role of deep reflection is to help us sort these things out. Where are these expectations coming from? Is it coming from parents? Is it coming from society? Is it coming from myself? And then once you're able to kind of

prioritize and take and say, Hey, these expectations, like I don't need to worry about them. They don't actually matter. I don't give a fuck. Right. Yeah. And then prioritize the ones that are the ones that really matter. Then I think like things will be more clear. Like, cause there's certainly less choices then.

And then maybe like the choice that you've already made, you validated that that's the right choice or it becomes clear that you need to take another path. But at least you don't have the distraction and the illusion that any of these other expectations is going to take you to something that's going to make you happy. Yeah. You're not always dreaming like, oh, what if, what if, right? Because there's a lot of shit coming at you and there's different agendas for good or bad. Sometimes the agendas are just based in historically in society. Like no one even wants it that way.

Like think about how many things in society are a certain way. No one wants it that way, but it's just the way it is. It's just the way it is. Yeah. And then coupled with we're getting more and more commercial. And so there are expectations where people are actually selfish or companies are selfish and they want a piece of you. Yeah.

By the way, so, you know, I don't consider myself a life coach because there's kind of an implication. It's like a little bit rah-rah. It's like, you can do it. But, you know, I try to be, you know, go back to the practical thing and it's like really, really things. But, you know, one of the things I, you know, I use that consider yourself normal. But the other thing is like, you know,

Like I talked to a lot of people and, and it's like, you are burdened because you care. And, and that's amazing that you're like, that you're, you're fighting every day for, you know, the success of your, maybe your, your, your company, their colleagues. And, and, but then you go home and you, you know, carry that light. We're talking about maybe women or, but men too, and things like that. But I think that, you know, I think what I try to help people do is like recognize that

I try to give more control or the feeling of more control on their terms, right? I've talked to a lot of people about success before. It was like, what is your definition of success? And I think most people that, you know, even regardless of they have a lot of money or say that, but the people that you look up to, it's doing things in what, on their terms, in the way that what they believe, right?

what they believe is most important, what they care about. Like I'll, in my workshops, I start by talking about just like, what do you care about most? About like, what is your definition of career success? And a lot of them have never really thought about that. And so

like you said, it's difficult for them, which, which I think that in this society, it's more like about other people's expectations. That's how it's framed. Yeah. It's not like what, if you think about what you care about, it's not, it comes across as self-centered and selfish, you know, like that. But, you know, it's that kind of philosophy is like, if I'm happy, then the people around me are going to be happy. You know, a little bit like that. Yeah. It's a personality type. I feel like, right. There's certain personality types that, uh,

that would never need a life coach or any type of coach. They just make their own decisions. They just move forward. Whether it's successful or not, it doesn't matter because they are who they are and nothing else matters. Then you have another type of personality traits that are maybe a little bit more wishy-washy, a little bit more unclear, right? And they may need some help. But I think the ones that think they know what they want

At some point in their life, they realized that they went down the wrong direction. So I think everyone needs a coach. That's why they call it a midlife crisis, right? Absolutely. Because you think like this job and I have a title, now I'm a middle manager, I'm 40 years old. That's even worse. And have I done what I aspired to do? You know, yeah. And, you know, that's just, you know, in the United States, again, we come from the future. That's what happens to people. And then they feel...

trapped or they feel kind of like... Disillusioned. Or failed, like something like that. For sure. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like there is... I don't know. I put it in this way of kind of this post-American dream era, right? There was the American dream and everyone went there and rushed. It's like the gold rush, right? And you go there and you work hard and you chase it. And then, I don't know, I get the feeling a lot of people are feeling disillusioned in terms of where...

where did all that effort really go, right? And what is the system really giving back to me? Yeah, yeah. You know, even for me personally, like I've always wanted to, like I would say, impact other people. That's a big thing. And now I still want to do that. But because of all the complexity in the world and stuff like that, like what matters more to me is like,

Well, I want to think about that. Like I was going to say, what I do, of course, matters, but how I do it really matters as well. You know, like that. Yeah, it's kind of like that. Don't you think, do you think that this priority shift or however you want to define it really came after having a family and settling down? You know what it is, and this is a totally different topic, is because of everything.

all the shit going on in the world right now. So we don't know the future. We don't know the future. Here we go. Open up another bottle of whiskey. We're going longest podcast ever. This is going to be a four hour podcast. We're going deep. Eric, buckle in. I'll be back. What is the future exactly in terms of longevity and what it looks like at

the quality of it and stuff like that. So then I want to like, what can I control? What can I manage? Like, yeah. But I would say that like, and I have angst and I have like doubts and disappointment. Oh, you're human. Yeah, I'm human. Yeah, so in that way. But like, I always try to remind myself I'm still on the journey. And maybe I'm getting towards the end, but I'm still on the journey. The final chapter is written. And then the other thing I always was like,

I remember what my mom celebrated her 80th birthday. She's going to turn 90 tomorrow, actually. Wow. But when she turned 80, you know, the kids were there and were celebrating. It's a small gathering, but it was like, hey, Mom, let's share. And she goes, you might not understand this, but...

My eyes are bad, my hearing's bad, my knees, my back, things like that. This is the best time of my life. And then her message, or it wasn't a message, it was just a sharing, about being at peace, at peace with the life you've lived. And I kind of remember that. And I'm still striving for that. I want to...

And I care about money and I care about success and I want to be recognized and, you know, whatever accolades and things like that. I'm a normal person, you know. It's not like it doesn't matter to me at all. But at the end of the day, you know, kind of going what I said before, it's like, you know, what I do matter, but how I do it equally matters as much.

you know that gives me the best chance for achieving that that peace well you're trying your best as you as you put it to live on your own terms something like that yeah yeah like that yeah um look larry it's an absolute pleasure talking to you where can people find you

That want to get in touch with you. So, yeah. So we have a website. It's www.plsdapproach.com. But I'm based in Shanghai. And, yeah, I mean, you know, again, the career coaching thing, the talent for individuals, but the talent and leadership development for organizations and things like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, thank you. Had a wonderful time talking to you. Yeah, yeah. I enjoyed it a lot, too. And more whiskey than I've drank in the afternoon for a while. I hope you enjoyed it. I did. I did. Cheers. He just said that he doesn't drink it until he goes to the club. That's right. Yeah. Nice. Nice. All right. That was Larry. I'm Justin. I'm Howie. And I'm Eric. All right, guys. Be good and be well. Peace.

♪ The rest of the South will see my pride ♪ ♪ I've been wishing you my time ♪