#149. Dylan Briley: Death & Cooking
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Life-changing stuff, man. This was like the crazy stories that were shared. Insane. I don't even know how to put it in words. I'm really thinking about the stuff that he said. Like the struggles that he had, these ups and downs. Yeah. Like where he completely lost his confidence. Dude, the stories that he was telling, I was literally gripping. Like that was you. Well, his brushes with death. Yeah. Oh, Jesus. I was sweating. I was literally sweating as he was telling that story. And I got, at least, I don't know. I felt like I was-

in that moment with him as he was telling like the death story. Like what? I felt like how we had an out of body experience, like hearing Dylan talk about his out of body experience. One, Justin has been a chef before. And so when he, when Dylan talked about some of his hair raising experiences, I could totally see the resonance. And then his whole thing with,

you know, losing confidence and rebuilding it. Like that's like Howie's sort of story with his directing. And so I could totally feel the resonance there as well. Yeah. But it wasn't all bad. I mean, there was plenty of inspiring kind of anecdotes here and learnings.

All right. Our guest is a chef, artist, culinary consultant, and DJ. He's had a legendary career cooking at some of the great restaurants around the world. In Shanghai, he was a former sous chef at the famous Mr. and Mrs. Bund, former chef de cuisine at Goga, and is currently the head chef at Crush. This was quite a crazy and inspiring conversation. So without further ado, please give it up for Dylan Briley. Hello, man.

Cheers. Okay, cheers. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Pleasure to be here. I was going to ask if it's like bad juju to cheers with things other than alcohol, but I'm with you. You went in with a Perrier, so I feel okay about it. Yeah. Yeah.

Wait, so how long have you been journaling? Like your whole life? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it started with doing coloring books with just writing little notes in there. Since I lost those, I wish I would still have, but from early 2000s, I have it. But usually when I write the journal, it just is a release for me. A lot of the times I'll just burn the page after. Oh, wow. Literally burn it? Yeah, because burning is like super energy clearing.

And that's why I like, if it's journal, I like it on typewriter or with a pen or something I can feel for real. It's just more tangible and intentional to me that I feel from personally speaking, when I go into digital, part of that connection is lost. I don't communicate. I don't feel energetically the same way when I'm going into a digital space versus just the way it was from digital.

you know, many times back, just more intuitive to self. You know, it's really weird when you say that. I never really thought about the difference between writing down in a journal and an analog way versus digital because I,

I do some journaling, not a lot. Yeah. Only when it hits me, right? I just want to write. Right. And I really thought back to when I would just get in the flow state and write on my notepad. I used to have my own notebook where I would just write. Yeah. And I could not be eloquent enough when I'm writing digitally. But for some reason on pen and paper, it's...

I was able to be eloquent in my own way. It was really weird. And I think you're hitting a point about energy that I never really used as a descriptive word to how I felt. That connection, that energy that you have maybe with a notebook and a pen or pencil that you may not have in the digital way. Yeah. So that's something that seems pretty strong with you, right? Yeah, 100%. I just feel like everything has...

In that way, more of like a life force that's more black and white to it. I don't know.

I think technology is great. I mean, here we are, we're having this podcast, being able to communicate to each other and with others who will listen to this, that wouldn't be possible. Otherwise, I mean, maybe with like, I don't know how you would do it in the past. Being to bring the collective thoughts together for people to feel that energy created versus, or you would just have to be live. Well, we're still doing it in an analog way because we're face-to-face. Yeah.

It's like when we do our podcast on Zoom, it's a different vibe. You can't get into that vibe. That's a perfect example. And then there's like the digital delay and we're like, oh, it's just horrible. Talking over each other. It's just a horrible situation. Yeah. But when you're face to face, you feel that energy. You feel the interaction. There's physical motion in the conversation. That's so important. Yeah. Human beings have been...

meeting face to face for tens of thousands of years. And it's only within that small sliver of time in the last couple of years that we start meeting digitally. So it makes sense that we're just not wired to respond in the same way through some type of artificial medium.

Yeah, and it's interesting you bring that up because I was thinking about that directly on how a lot of social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, I don't know, the list goes on and on and on. These are all tools that have been creative to help us all be more connected in one sense, but in the other.

In the other, it's completely driving this divide between us energetically and your consciousness, where you are at in your daily because of how many device use. It completely takes you out of just we're here now interacting for real. And I think that's so important for me to keep intact.

In my life, it's so easy to go into that rabbit hole of media and just living all your experiences through it, where even when you're in the daily, you're still plugged into this channel that's completely on a different circuit than just this for real, you know? Yeah. Yeah. How often are you on social media, you feel? I feel like in recent, very little.

As far as going home and unplugging just to watch a YouTube video, just needing that decompression or looking at someone's social media. I would say like every day I look at Instagram, maybe for 15, 20 minutes collectively through the day. I find that really fascinating because I totally relate to what you're saying in terms of that decompression.

But it's strange, right? Like, why is it? And I've heard this, other people have said this as well, right? So I feel like there's a pattern going on here where at the end of the day, you hop on your YouTube or Instagram, whatever, and it's like a decompression, right?

And then it's almost like a ritual you have to do before going to bed or something. And technically, that's kind of like it shouldn't be that way. Like, it's weird that it would be that way. It kind of almost doesn't make sense unless you frame it. Instead of decompressing, you're just distracting yourself from maybe the bigger thoughts during the day or from work or whatever is ailing you. And kind of that momentary distraction is...

sort of like a relief in that moment. And therefore we call it a decompression. But really, if we're hopping on the digital device where all this information, boom, boom, boom, all these short form, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all this crap. I mean, that shouldn't really be a decompression, right? But it feels that way, which is strange to me. Yeah. Well, I think it's just like anything where you come home, you have a glass of wine, you have a drink and

It's you get your cookie. It's just like that. Because for me, I remember that feeling of sitting down on my couch and

And I just open up that computer and I just feel, you know what I'm going to watch now? Oh, it's going to be that one where he needs to start the tractor in the wilderness, see if he can get it started. Like completely mind-numbing stuff that is of no relevance to me. That's a dopamine hit. There we go. Yeah, yeah. Oh, he got that tractor started? Yeah. Yeah. That feels good. That generator. Was that a new generator? Yeah. Oh, that feels good. Yeah, you can just go on and on and on.

It was really interesting because that tune out is the decompression where you don't have to actively do anything except just consume and it's passive consumption. And I only started because this is coming from that book, The Creative Artist, where you do your unplugging. It says for a week, don't read. And I made the rule to myself, I'm not going to read, but I'm also not going to look at my phone or watch any social media content.

for the whole week unless the only thing on the phone is if there's a message for sure that I need to respond to that pops up on WeChat but no mindless opening up Taobao and flipping through something or looking at typewriters just cut out all that when I get home just being in my space no I can write but just no reading can listen to music but it's amazing how quickly I got super super stir crazy

Yeah.

And suddenly when you're, you've disconnected from that, in my experience, it's like, whoa, okay, so now I have all this time. And initially it's a little bit, I just get like this anxiousness of, so what the fuck do I do now? Like, okay, I'll organize this. And it was just, it's hard. And then I noticed I had this like short-term focus problem. I couldn't just sit down and do something for real. Like, let me just,

Get into music. Don't become impatient with it. Just looking for that instant dopamine hit that you get from watching a video.

Five minutes in, the videos now are designed to just give you the juice. There's no waiting. Are you going to the woods to start the tractor? You're like, yes. But then you're like... You got to share that video of the tractor. It sounds so enticed. It sounds like a gem. It is. There's whole channels with millions of subscribers. You know what it is? It's like they've perfected...

The art of presenting tigers in danger. 100%. Because we're tuned. If there's anything that we pay attention to, it's danger because that's our survival instinct. And they've essentially perfected that craft. So they're just showing you tigers in the form of tractors or whatever it is. You're just seeing tiger after tiger after tiger. And then it's caught your attention. And there's no actual real danger. So you can just sit back and

You're like catatonic. You're being hypnotized. Can I ask you something? You said that you did this disconnect for a week? Yeah. What? I did it one day. That's got to be like a new world record. I did it for one day and this was right after the lockdown. I told you guys this. I didn't even let myself listen to music. Nothing. No consumption whatsoever. The only thing I was allowed to do was walk around or write. That's it.

And it was quite interesting because like you said, I got restless at first and I had to get out. And then I realized that walking around and just thinking about things helped me get through and be actually preoccupied by doing something. Yeah. But I can't imagine a week that that's... But it's funny. As insane as this sounds... A whole week? A whole week. Yeah.

But everything we're saying is like literally the exact same like steps as like substance abuse. Yeah. Like people who are trying to get off substances. Yeah. It's literally the exact same emotions and the difficulty level. Addiction. Yeah. Addiction is addiction. There's just different symptoms of withdrawal from it. I think with media, there's an emotional attachment to like you just get your own fulfillment and validation through it. Something. It gives you that.

you know imparted on yourself so that was maybe a little bit too cold turkey though to just no music or anything i you got to ease into it you know that was my 24-hour detox yeah yeah but it's good i mean and for sure i i watch media now but i think the ultimate for me is just not being too stringent on myself

It's okay to not live by this like super augmented, like, no, I can't do that. Like if you want to watch a video, it's all good or do something, but it's about having awareness of what you are doing and just being the driver in your own seat, not letting it become this knee jerk situation where you're just operating and you're not even conscious, but you're just, you know, you're not your driver. When you see people look at,

their phones and the way they scroll through. I see this on the subway and it's scary. They're just...

they're just kind of you see them like 10 seconds and then they just move on because i'm actually paying attention to the actual what's in the video trying to understand because i don't hear the audio yeah and so i'm kind i'm kind of aware of things and you just see people like they watch something for like five seconds they don't even see the result and then just go to the next one the next and the next one and literally they're just being hypnotized in that state the pacifier

Yeah. Like, I know we've talked about this particular topic, like, to death, but if we think about it, you know, we just kind of compared it to, like, drug addiction. And if you see it that way, it becomes so much more subversive, this idea of being manipulated. Let's not talk about social media, but, like, let's say you get someone addicted on heroin, drugs, whatever it is, right? Yeah.

and they're addicted, think about how easy it would be to manipulate that person, to do things if their life and death is like, well, at least the way they feel is like, I need that hit or I need that thing, right? When you have an entire population of people who are, let's say, addicted to media, think about how that can be weaponized to manipulate. And when you compare the two directly, right?

in terms of its form of addiction, it becomes very clear that it's clearly a dangerous thing. I mean, of course it does a lot of good, but there's a huge side of danger too that, in my opinion, almost outweighs. But I mean, I think everyone's going to have their own different opinions on that, right? So...

I don't know. Maybe I'm just in my own little dark rabbit hole where it's just like all dark. I think we're just conscious about it, but there's a lot of people out there that just don't give two fucks. Yeah, yeah. And they're happy to just be in that rabbit hole and they're happy just to be scrolling. Well, their whole entire small business is supported by their social media presence, right? And they're making money. They're making a living. But not even that. Not even that. I'm just saying just people just are not...

They're just fine with living that way because there's no other, I guess. Well, in a lot of cases, it's their reality and that is a lot better than the one they're living. Maybe. Where if I was an Olimar driver or a huge percent of this population that grows up in a way that you can't even imagine. You think like, I think about my third world or my first world problems.

And then I always snap into perspective of like, think of these people who are living in the ghettos in Jakarta or just for the simple having a coconut water, this hazelnut, it would just be like the best luxury you could ever imagine. And so, yeah, people like that that have access to this media, I think is just like something that helps them as a buffer. And we all equally feel good from that hit.

Yeah. Doesn't matter what your social status is, right? We all feel the same. What I would want to do with social media, the message I would want to send on it is just something where from sharing things that just inspire me and fill my heart that helps others become having that collective feeling where it's just sending them a message that is more conducive to maybe branching away from, you know, more mindless consumption and

having the empowered opportunities to just travel to a place and do something for someone that's really nice and really impactful to their life. Where, you know, I was in Sri Lanka some years back and staying at this Airbnb and just the opportunity to talk with these people and hear their story was so special to me. And they said that they had, you know, Sri Lanka, it's not easy to really make ends meet there and provide for your family in a lot of ways. And

they were not having very good business their airbnb because they didn't have an air conditioning unit and like i don't know i was just so moved because uh this guy stayed at this airbnb sometime back that they told me about and heard their thing about the ac and he just went out and bought it and installed it for them and just that little being impactful like that

Like think of what that did for that family, the amount of business that they were able to bring in because they have an AC conditioned place that more guests would want to stay at. And that AC for that guy was nothing. And so like I just want to put myself more in the driver's seat with being able to do things like that for people, you know, that show them like, man, we're living a life that is pretty tough. And if I can just do my part to be able to come in and touch people in a way that

where that'll definitely resonate for them. And like, that was a special moment that really imparted a lot on me, where just not having to think so big, like, but just what's in front of you? What can you do to that person? Like, you don't know what kind of day they're having, you know? You just glare at this Illamai driver, but he could have like the most shit situation going on. And I think just having like more empathy and compassion and awareness to people that you're just passing on the road

We're all people. We all have the spirit that you think they're just numb to that. But if you send that energy out there, who knows what that could do? You know, I recently I started doing a scene where like I just type these poems and just say a poem for a stranger and just kind of putting a message out there. And just I think the person who's meant to find it will just come upon it. And maybe that would just the feeling of what could that do for somebody like means so much to me, you know?

Because I think things have a way to find you in the moment where it's just meant to be that moment. And they're just there for you. I think that's beautiful. I think this idea of doing immediately impactful, positive things directly with, you know, the environment around you and the people around you, like that AC example. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great reminder for me personally. Because I feel like recently I've...

I don't know what it is. I don't want to call it a depression because I don't think it's that. But maybe it's just a more cynical and pessimistic view of the world. And I think a lot of that is probably spurred on by media, like we were just talking about. And so I feel like I've lost this part of me where it's like, wait, you have the power to do good and to affect good.

around you and to do positive things. And I think we sometimes lose sight of that with the busy hustle and bustle of life, the dog eat dog mentality. Everyone's trying to survive and make ends meet. So you gotta be tough out there, right? And so I feel like sometimes we get too lost in that mentality and we forget like, hey man,

Like there's this whole other side that you don't have to call it woo-woo or, you know, like soft. It's like, just be kind, like put positive vibes out there. And like you said, it can be a ripple effect and who knows what happens from that. Right. But like you can directly immediately affect change. And I don't know, it's just a long winded way of me saying like, yeah, thanks for that reminder.

Of course, bro. So I think we kind of just like plunged into this conversation without getting some basics. So wait, so you're the chef at Crush? Yeah. Are you the executive chef there? Yeah, you could call it that. What do you guys call it? I'm just the co-creator of Crush with Elliot, my good friend, who's doing all the wine and had the vision for that place for a long time.

And so, yeah, we just put our heads together for the food and we're able to make it in a way that the guys in the kitchen could lay it down. And yeah, that's, it's been a really rewarding project to be a part of. Awesome, man. So where are you from? America, New Hampshire. New Hampshire. Yeah. And then...

As early as I can remember, I moved to the ski town in Utah called Park City. Park City. Yeah. Yeah. And I was in the early 90s and it was, yeah, good times. And then I spent 10 years in Seattle before moving here.

So if you don't mind me asking, how old are you? 38. 38, okay. Yeah, because you seem like really young. But then you talk like you have all this experience and wisdom. So I was just like, okay, how old is this guy? Yeah, I mean, it just depends on your situation. What I was exposed to gave me a lot of perspective that I'm really grateful to have. Something that happened here.

I don't know, like that is a touchy topic. We can totally talk about it if you feel like, but like. Yeah, what happened? Well, it's in 2014, I had that heart attack.

of just grinding like you're saying losing that awareness not taking care of yourself just kind of blinders on going for it and I was in a dark place of really like deep hatred for myself and resentment of just my inability to perform on how I felt like I should and

And there was this mirror in the elevator and I just glare at myself every day on the way home and just say, I hate you, Dylan. Where were you at the time? Were you here or somewhere else? I was here because I moved here in 2011. Wow. And this was like 2014 working in this restaurant that was fucking enormously stressful for multiple reasons and...

I just feel, I don't know, like I was really not in a good relationship with myself or the girlfriend I had at the time. It just wasn't healthy. And there was this lead up that week just getting pain in my ribs and these shooting pains in my shoulders and I could feel something's off. My appetite was really low. I'm like, probably some pinched nerves.

And then, yeah, long story short, I was just cooking on the line one night and everything kind of came to a front of the body shutting down. You know, like, you know, when you stand up too fast and you get that head rush, I was getting that. But just being on the, bracing the cutting board really quickly, like, what? And giving dishes to people. And I remember one patron being like, yeah, you know, your lips are kind of turning purple.

You know, I was like, yeah, I don't feel like super good right now. I think I'm going to head out, but you guys enjoy your, you know, gnocchi. It was a gnocchi dessert, remember? Pesto gnocchi, some toasted pine nuts, a little grilled zucchini, got the fresh mint, a little sun-dried tomato. Let's talk about the gnocchi. Forget about your heart attack. Yeah, totally. It was pillowy soft and delicious, and I hope they enjoyed it. I'm sure they did.

And then, yeah, I started to feel like this lactic acid in my legs. Like you can't even climb a flight of stairs feeling like you just ran a marathon.

i've never done that by the way i ran a half marathon and it was like brutal yeah oh my god but you didn't feel it until you stopped you're like wow oh yeah so this is i was damaging myself eric you want to chime in here yeah yeah no please please go on go on to your story oh okay and then i the chef i was working for because there was a base floor and then there was this one up on the seventh floor of the hotel behind it was goga i don't

I don't know if you guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a great one. Oh, you said you were friends or you worked with Brad? I worked with Brad. Where's Brad now? He's in California. Really? He opened Goga Saratoga. Yeah. Catchy name. It's just pretty much the food he was doing here, he's doing there in a more relaxed setting for him. Nice. So, yeah, so that was that. And I was talking to him and he's like, it's Friday night. I was like, I don't know if I'm going to live to Saturday. So I'm going to head out.

And it was just like, things were starting to go blurry. I couldn't stand up straight because the shooting pain in my shoulders, I always describe as like, I felt like someone was like stabbing a rebar into me.

It was insane. And I luckily at that time was not living more than probably a kilometer from Goga on Yishuiyuan Road, which is, you know, hospital road. Yeah. Which is literally down the street. Is that like Fudan? Like the hospital? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I was living on the kiddie corner to that pretty much.

And I was trying to flag down a taxi as I'm outside. And the lights are just, you know, like you're rolling or something. They were just streaming, streamers, like glinty stars. Everything was fuzzy, hazy. And so I just kept

I had my longboard, so I just rode it. And I had this throbbing, like, it felt like I had a bass drum in my ears. Like, I could hear my heart just, or something. Like, my ears were just throbbing. It was crazy. Like, pulsing, like, you know, you have, like, your foot goes numb. Just all the limbs just felt like they were so heavy. And I was just, like, this mass moving on this board.

like completely leaving consciousness. Like suddenly I was just like this physical, I just felt like my body physical. There was no mental. And it was just like, get home, get home. It's like the life is just seeping out. Yeah. And you're just on the street, like in traffic. Riding my board down the sidewalk.

And finally I get to home and at this point, like I can't breathe. I feel like I'm choking. I can't breathe. And I get upstairs and my girlfriend at the time was there and she's like, hey, I got you a new cell phone. I was like, oh, you know, and that's like I collapsed on the floor. And I just remember just like the best way I could describe that feeling in that moment was like, you know, after you've had a good cry,

and you just feel exhausted just emotionally exhausted but at peace with it it was that uh i was looking up at her and she was like like hysteric you know and i was like just give me some peach gummy or something and then you just i felt this jolt of just involuntary of my eyes like there was just a ringing in my ears and like a flash

And then like, I just felt this like shaking and pulling on my shirt and she was like slapping my face and I just was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And she's like, you were just like convulsing on the floor.

And then she called the ambulance and they came and picked me up and took me into the clinic. And it was just... And sorry to... Now I remember when we first talked because like you told me about the out-of-body experience. Yeah. Coming up on that. Yeah. So I get into the hospital. The doctors are looking pretty concerned because my heart rate is really low.

Are you still conscious at this point? Yeah, but very... Like on the border. Yeah, like what is going on here? I couldn't really talk. I was just like... And so they just put an IV in my arm and wheeled me into this emergency room with all these other people who had just like... Bad shape. Oh my God. Just the...

The screaming, the wailing of pain in that room was insane. There was this guy with his leg mangled and this woman on the hospital bed shitting herself and just moaning. These people in their last moments of some of them, it's just crazy. Like misery. Yeah. And I was just laying there in the wheelchair. And then suddenly the next thing is I just...

I guess I go out again and I wake up and I'm, you know, I've ripped the IV out of my arm because I just fell on the, ripped it out of my arm because I just fell on the ground. And then the doctors are putting blankets over me. And at this moment, it felt like to just fall asleep would be the easiest thing in the world. Like I felt really cold. Everything was echoey quiet, like a stillness, like very soft, fuzzy, cold.

And then everything just faded out. And that's when this whole out of body thing happened where

I was suddenly could see myself laying on the ground with frantic doctors and. - So you saw yourself. - Yeah. - Like from a third person view. - It's like a flotation type situation. And then I was like, in that moment, I was like, I am so incredibly sorry to my family, to my friends, to just all the moments I've let myself down.

and everything was not words right it was just like this feeling this energetic expression that was like

it was like so heavy. And then there was just this energy that was like, uh, in every moment, in any moment, there's nothing ever to be ashamed of. It's the choice is always yours. And then I would just, in that I responded to, it's like, I would just be so grateful for another opportunity. And then in that, that moment, it was just like, and then I felt the, uh,

the pulse of the defibrillator. Oh shit. So your heart stopped? Yeah, I was clinically flatlined for like a minute. Really? A minute flatline? They said I should have had brain damage. What? They were just, they were pretty much ready to call it. And they wheeled me. They're like, holy shit. And like, they probably said that or something. It was kind of like,

They all looked at me like, oh my God. And they put the blankets over me and wheeled me into this other room where I could see the x-ray happening. And they just put this, it was called catheter? Yeah. They put it in my groin. Yeah. And I could see this...

whatever that was, this wire snaking up to my heart, I guess. And then they just taped this pacemaker on my leg. And that was the only thing that... And then they told me, they wheeled me into this, you know, the hospital room, I guess, where a lot of other people are laying there in not good shape. And they said, we just want to be straight with you. Like, if you...

Feel fit. Like you definitely should call your family and tell them what's happening because we want to be honest, like the chance of you waking up tomorrow is extremely low.

like 5% chance. The doctors were telling you that? Yeah. Were they speaking in English or Chinese or both? English. Wow. Yeah, I think mainly English because my Chinese at that time was not that good. And they're like, yeah, do you have your phone? Do we need to call? And I was like, no, I didn't want to call anybody because I just knew, I know what they were telling me, but I just could feel like- You're good. I'm good. I'm going to wake up tomorrow.

And then, yeah, I was in the hospital for two weeks and I got out of there. And that was that moment where it was like for real enlightenment. Like I felt it for a moment. I mean, it's since faded where I feel just definitely my life was deeply impacted and changed me as a person in ways I can't even express and changed my consciousness in a way that I can't even remember my consciousness anymore.

before but I remember walking down that street back to my apartment that day and that in that moment is like I know just to feel what the sun feels like on my face to feel myself breathing to hear people talking all those road noises you could imagine is like clamoring in your daily or what the

so much honking all that was just like this like bliss sym symphony of i'm alive life and i'm breathing and i walked so slow and just the beaming of the sun on my face and everything was like a you know that was that moment and that just changed me forever you know that was so good

I mean. Wow. Can we toast to that first? Yeah. That was intense. I had no idea this was coming. I had no idea about that. Yeah. That was intense. Yeah. That was. But like I said, I'm so happy that happened. That was, it needed to happen. What's amazing is that just going back again about with that outer body experience. First of all, that lead up.

I mean, that's as dramatic as any film I've watched in a while. I just really feel in that play by play. Oh, yeah. Right? And, but I want to focus on that out of body experience where you said that not only did you see everything happen from a third party perspective. Yeah. But also you were having these feelings of, about your life. Yeah.

In that moment, that's sort of summarizing how you felt, how you lived. Yeah, yeah. And you said that you cannot verbalize that feeling, but instead it was just an intense emotion. Yeah. And you remember that after waking up. 100%. I actually have a journal entry from that moment and the perspective shift was huge. I couldn't believe what I was writing.

And I burned that entry because I knew it was one where I just needed to release that. But it was just about how I'm going to definitely just be more aware of what this is and to summarize it and just to rebuild a lot of bridges I've burned with family. And that was on a very basic level. But just, yeah, living better for myself was the ultimate message. But it wasn't the words that were so important.

moving it's again like back to the energy there was an energetic shift in that moment that was so tangible there's no then and now it just became something you know well i'm sure like you spent countless hours days weeks whatever thinking about that what do you think what do you think it was you know like leaving your body i mean a lot of people depending on i think

their own experiences and beliefs will ascribe different things to that moment? Like what do you feel it was? Like how do you describe that, you know? I mean, I really believe- Or explain it, sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, go ahead. Okay, so I really believe in definitely lives lived beyond this one that we're experiencing now energetically. There's just too much energetic information that comes into your life that can't really be explained through just like your physical existence, right?

whether it's through synchronicity and the way things manifest and then but that was all kind of speculation up until that moment where i did definitely that wasn't some kind of hallucination like it was very visceral and uh i i think it's like a different vibration a different realm that our vibration in this reality isn't attuned to so we don't experience it

But that whole aspect of astral projection comes up, which I'm sure all of you have, you know. Or people who've done, you know, psychedelics that they, I think they talk about a similar kind of like experience, not experience what you had, but I think the takeaway is similar in terms of this aha moment and this different energy and this different perspective on your own life. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Psychedelics for sure do that.

for you almost like a cheat code to feeling that consciousness you know it gives you that keyhole so astral projection to me though doing it organically is so fascinating i've never done it where people say oh you start with lucid dreaming and then you can just get into this really

Once your practice with that is good, you can start meditating on the intention to astral project. And then you can have that out-of-body experience. Well, you did it the hard way. Yeah. Or the easy way. Like, I mean, it was, yeah. Not by choice. You just die and then you do that. But like to access, you know, to access that level of consciousness, to bring your vibration to that is something. But you just think we're one of...

how many people in the world? Like 8 billion people. Everyone has their own unique consciousness. Yeah. And, but we're still, we're so stuck and fixated in our own consciousness. Literally like we just live one version, one singular version of things, but you just see how different people are and how when you travel, you get a little bit of a glimpse of these different types of perspectives. But imagine all each one of these consciousnesses is completely different and

And then being able to just jump into one of them is what I think you take some of these psych... I haven't tried any psychedelics myself, but there's lots of credible people that have done so. And you're literally just in another world. And it makes sense that your mind would be capable of that if you were somehow able to implant it with the right sort of memories and materials inside. That's like my aspiration is

in life is just to reach that of just being able to be in whatever my surrounding, whatever my situation, whatever my life situation is, just to still be able to just flow. Not this roller coaster of always feeling like, oh, I'm high, high right now. But there's always that dip in the tracks that, you know, yesterday was that for me. I was just like, God, you know, my energy was off. I didn't want to do anything.

It's very just down. That's so crazy. I was like that Friday. Yeah. Yeah. I was just out. And I think I was just exhausted as well. Yeah. I'm curious, like going back to this, to that point in your life, 2014, and you go through this, this just life-changing experience. What were the things that were leading up? You said you really, you know, hated yourself, right? You're full of self-hatred.

sort of self-hate. Yeah. But like, what can you share in that period of time? Like what was happening in your life? What were some of the decisions that you were making, you know, at that point?

Well, I think it started from a little bit before that when I was working at Mr. and Mrs. Bund. That was like a brutal kitchen to work in as my intro to China. That was your first gig in China? Yeah. And it was a kitchen where, you know, at that time my Chinese was like not, I wasn't speaking at all. And it was a kitchen full of these cooks that were running around working in a way that I hadn't really experienced before in a system. And I was like supposed to go in and lead them.

And that's where my stress started of really being like, what did I just get myself into? What was different about it than what you were used to? Oh, well, when I was working in the States, all the kitchens there were...

You create your food from square one to the final product that's going onto the plate. And I mean, it's in English, right? So I can feel like I know what I'm doing and talking to the people and how to do it and what they want. And we're working together and,

Uh, but then at this kitchen at Mr. and Mrs. Bund, it's 30 people in the kitchen and everything is augmented where there's just one person focusing on just one aspect of a dish. So any given dish comes together from like 15 people. So you have one week link, the whole dish doesn't get put out. Yeah. Yeah. And why, what is like, well...

Why was it the scale of the kitchen that you break it into almost like a factory, like an assembly line? What's the reason for that? Well, it's because this is actually dubbed the PP process because the chef who opened this place, Paul Perret, knew that the cooks he was going to have to use don't have that background in Western cooking experience. They were all just coming from the Chinese countryside.

and not understanding the touch with cooking Western food at the level he needed it to be. So he just separated all the steps. It's like, all you do is, you know how many grams of salt goes in this many liters of water with this asparagus that's this many grams for that. Everything was absolutely regimented. So very scientific approach. Well, it's like specialist approach. Like you have, everyone specializes in a certain thing.

So then they can hone their specialities and get really super efficient at that one thing. But they're not putting a whole plate together. They're just like, if they're on vegetables, like they just focus on vegetables and they do that to the best of their ability. - And is that only done like in this type of scenario or do you have restaurants in other parts of the world where they like break it down to that granular level of detail? - I think they do in most Michelin kitchens where the level of details in that food is insane.

Like the time it takes, you know, I worked in some Michelin kitchens in Germany when I was younger and it was just like, oh my God, just doing the garnish for something was so time consuming. It had to be like that. But the cooks, the differences, those cooks knew how the rest of the dish was coming together. They understood it. If you ask them to do that part, it's just from their... Like they can hop over to... Right, it's from their understanding. It's dishes and familiarities that they've grown up with.

Just like, you know, if those Chinese cooks were in a Chinese kitchen that was high level and things were separated out, there would still be a link for them between the flavors and just the...

you know just like the way to do the dish which wasn't there with western so that's why it was just separated for them it's like you just take care of this and we'll take care of this but for me it was so stressful uh because it was completely against the grain of everything i'd ever learned about cooking of just cooking in completeness and with feeling versus having to follow these tight recipes and techniques um

Did you get any resistance from like the staff that was already there? Huge. Like this new guy coming in, telling us what to do? Yeah. Yeah. I was just some laowai that had his title because of the way I looked. They completely discounted that. I was from the West and I had cooking experience. They thought I was just coming in to just be another chef

sheep herder like they they just were treated the first thing that the chef told me there he's like these guys just need to be treated like dogs and that already gave me i was like how that feel like what yeah he's like yeah these guys are just dogs uh and you need to keep them

And I was like, that is the most dehumanizing, just horrible thing to say. Yeah, who said that to you? Your predecessor? The chef that was there. Oh, the chef that was there. Yeah. And so I was already like, okay, this isn't really my style of kitchen and just perpetuated into this spin cycle of absolutely gutting my confidence. Yeah.

It was just like, oh my God, I thought I knew what I was doing with cooking and just, I had a lot of like ego around cooking when I was in Seattle because I was like working at hot shit kitchens, just killing it on the line, doing crazy numbers, flying. And then I came here and I felt like I couldn't even like put marks on a piece of bread right. I completely started questioning every aspect of myself.

And there was this overwhelming night where all these steaks were coming at me and they're like, mama, mama, son, Ben shown. I was like, what the fuck? Like, what does that mean? You know? And I was having to like, yeah, seriously. And you know, a combo therm oven is pretty big. It's got, it's got different shelves and, uh,

There was like 10 timers on this oven keeping track of the temperature of each meat that was going in there. I was just like, how am I supposed to keep a basis on this? Like, this is insane. And Bill Clinton was eating in the restaurant that night. So great, you know. And I was the only American in the kitchen. They're like, yeah, Mr. USA, your leader is here. And you're just like, oh, this is, it's like...

this was becoming an experience that was so unreal stressful i felt like is this real like i was starting to like hallucinate like how can this really be happening right now and uh i serve the president's steak and then it comes back um like like his steak bill clinton's bill clinton's steak it was like a ribeye uh

Was it undercut or something? Oh, it was over. I murdered it. Because everything coming out of there, I had no idea. They're like, give me table 13. I was like, oh my God. Right. You know? Yeah, totally in the weeds. Yeah, big time. On a level like I could have never imagined. Oh, that's dresses.

Amazing, right? Yeah, it was great. And then I hear this, because I don't know if you've ever been to Mr. and Mrs. Bund, but the kitchen is alongside this corridor that's leading down to the bathrooms. There's the glass you can see through. And so if you imagine it, like the meat station is right on the first right when you're starting down the corridor. So you can see where I was at just absolutely imploding. And I hear this little like,

like rasping on the the window and i turn around and it's fucking bill clinton and i'm just like are you for real and he goes he does this little like finger wet and i'm just like oh my god yeah you should know better i'm your president and you just shit the bed on my steak i'm just like

That's hilarious. Yeah. It actually brought some comedy to the moment for me because I was just like, no way. Like, where does that happen? Did you get to meet him? No. You didn't want to meet him? No. I don't want to. He's like, yeah. Had you cooked a steak just right, you would have met him.

Then if it would have been a fist bump or something, I would have been like... Then my confidence would have skyrocketed. I probably would have been promoted to chef that evening. But it went the other direction where the next day I came in and it looked like some kind of military lineup. I came into the kitchen and all the cooks were sitting there with their notebooks because there was these daily check-ins. And I had to be one of the ones that like...

Have you ever seen that movie Full Metal Jacket where the guy is enabled from the drill sergeant where he has to eat a powdered donut or whatever, the jelly donut in front of all these people who are just on the line? I felt like that guy where I completely ruined it for everybody. And I had a good heart and I just was trying to do my thing, but it was just overwhelming me. And they just completely chastised me. The chef turned to me and was like, what you did last night is the worst shit I've ever seen in a kitchen ever.

And then he said that in Chinese. And I'm like this greenhorn in this kitchen that's just been there a couple months. And I'm getting paid triple what all these guys are. You know, you can imagine the hatred that they had for me. And like that we got you now.

And I just had to toil away in that because that was my visa. That's all I could see when I first came here was just like, this is the way. Like, I don't even know what else to do here right now. That was your lifeline. Yeah. And you're thinking like, I'm sure like, because as you're saying this, like, I'm like sweating right now. Like, it's like literally like the worst, I can imagine it's like the worst feeling. It was terrible. And in that moment, you're feeling like, okay, well, I'm never going to bounce back from that here.

Like, you know, like I almost have to, like, I can't like, it's like you have to work there, but you're like, I can't work there. But it's like in their eyes, you will never bounce back from that again. Like the road up is so steep. Yeah. Because they've completely discredited you because they were already against you in the first place. Totally. And that just gave them that extra, you know. Justification. Yeah. To just turn the screws and know like.

got you and uh yeah i never did get my power back there and it just felt like this infinite spiral where i felt like i completely forgot how to cook i lost all confidence in myself and i remember going home every night and i would go to the convenience store and pick up a kinder bueno bar and just eat it under my blanket just like self self-soothe

to deal with that. That was like every night, Kinder Bueno, like just like kind of like, oh my God. And just fear that next day of having to deal with that. It got to a point in there where I was like in the cooler. My final thing was just like, I was in the cooler. I just like completely lost it. They're like, Dylan, get off the line. The guy just yanked me by the collar of my chef jacket and just like put me in the walk-in cooler. And I was holding this clipboard and

and I just was like on the verge of tears, and I was just holding this plastic clipboard so tightly, it just broke in my hands. And then I was like, okay, I need to get out of here. And I finished. That was pretty much near the end of my contract. So that first day after being done with that was just this release, but it had took away my confidence for cooking. How long were you there for? A year. It was a year contract. And they're like, this city is going to spit you out.

chew you up and spit you out. We'll give you another shot if you want to sign another year. You know, I was like, no, no. They're like, all right. Well, it's pretty much like a don't let the door hit you on the way out type dismissal. And basically, I just faded from there into just doing DJ gigs and piecing together things before I, you know, Brad found me consulting at like some shitty little oyster festival in the cool docks like

Hating life and he took me under his wing at Goga, which turned into doing something for him, but I didn't have any confidence. So that spiraled for me. And that's the beginning. That was like a long winded version of where the stress began because I went into Goga with no confidence.

And it took a lot to get it back, especially with the type of chef he was, which was super demeaning, like hitting below the belt, just going at you. It was just not nice. So it was like a similar type of... Militant. Yeah. It was an open kitchen, right? You know, Goga. So just getting berated by him for doing stuff incorrectly in front of customers. Oof. You know? Oof. Why would you do that? Yeah.

Yeah. And people, the customers, they go, you can see they're like, wow, this is uncomfortable for me to witness because it's just too much. And so that's, yeah, my, I just felt so guilty from that of not performing again at the chef that had given me a golden opportunity. And he'd always kind of, you know,

me like that saying like I put you down here and this is what you do and all this just over people know about your experience at Mr. Mrs. Bunn like or like or no I buried that one deep yeah yeah so they it was on the resume good right but but you weren't asking for reference letters oh I mean that's fine I told people I had a hard go there but I

I tended not to bring it up in conversation. But don't... Like, chefs talk, right? Like, I mean, it's kind of a small circle once you're in it. Yeah. But I guess the chefs didn't talk. But yeah, it's definitely... If you do someone dirty, it's hard to keep on, right? But I started doing well at Goga, but I just hated the dynamic I had with the chef who opened that place. And it just came to a front that night where there was just...

different small sets of things leading up leading up in work that were affecting outside of work with my relationship with my girl who just wasn't right we weren't right for each other and that just compounded and then just got more and more and more and more and more and then there was just that evening where it all just kind of so so not to jump around but kind of link back to the first story you were talking about with the heart attack yeah

Is that stress-induced heart attack? I think so. Basically, what happened is my immune system was weakened from being all stressed out, and I got this viral infection in my lungs. That's where it started. Later, the doctors told me that it's from this really rare condition called myocarditis. You've heard of that? Yeah, I've heard of it. And it's literally like there's only reported in

cases in people who are under 30.

and most who get this just it's fatal so uh it was really strange just was in my lungs and that would that's why there was that that pain in my ribs and then it just went into infected my heart and it caused the capillaries as i'm told the capillaries uh swelled up and constricted the either uh arteries which caused the the heart attack yeah so but it kind of makes sense going all the way back you talked about you know

Starting from Mr. and Mrs. Bunn, this like slow snowballing of just shit, right? Yeah. And then your own confidence like wearing away. And then on top of all the other personal things you had going on and you start losing self-confidence. Your identity starts getting murky. You're like, well, who the fuck am I? Yeah. You start hating yourself because of it and you feel like you can't do anything right. Yeah. Yeah.

that's that's just so dark like but like this idea of self-hate was that a new feeling for you i mean when you were in the states growing up did was there any of that i think i always felt like some of some low self-esteem from childhood of just wanting to be validated or like please others

I think it definitely rooted from something like that that just got blown into a bigger... I'm looking for that word, but I'm missing it. Just like it was brought to a more evident display. It just brought it out. It was like... It was like kind of beneath the surface all your life? Yeah, it was beneath the surface and I had...

maybe a surface sense of confidence when I was in Seattle. And then I came here and it just got stripped away completely and just left me super exposed and way more vulnerable than I'd ever felt. And it just opened it up to this self-perpetuating doubt and low self-esteem that really, yeah, manifested physically.

and got really sick, you know? Yeah, I think I was maybe weak in a way. And then being at Mr. and Mrs. Bund exploited this vulnerability that just made it become more infected in myself. You know, I'm curious...

Before you came to Shanghai, you said you were in Seattle. Yeah. And you said you were killing it. You were doing pretty well. Yeah, for sure. Can I ask you something? I'm trying to guess something. Now, in those restaurant situations that you were in in Seattle or anything pre-Mr. and Mrs. Bunn, were you in the position where it was more on your shoulder? Like everything you were doing were kind of like on your control.

And it was not like you were not part of another system or I think that it's like, it was a lot more in your control compared to Mr. and Mrs. Bunn. Is that true or not? Yeah, I just felt like I had the means to do what was in front of me. I just had a better support system. I definitely had some really hard times like with any cooks, you know, growing up in the kitchens doing it. Of course, it's hard, but it felt like there was...

steps forward to be able to handle what was happening. And I don't know if it was coming here and having the language barrier, just whatever it was, it kind of just shook my foundation and it didn't feel like I had a clear way forward. It just was like... Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to relate something right now because I feel kind of... I feel a bit of... a lot of empathy towards what you were just saying, first of all, because...

I'm relating something of my own journey that was a little bit similar in terms of the self-doubt and this confidence-killing misery, I would say. Yeah. And I went through something similar where back in the States, whatever I did, it was pretty much under my control and I always excelled.

And you can say it was almost like a comfort zone because of the way, the situations I was in. I always excelled. I did well. If I didn't do well, it was easily remedied because of a support system or whatever. Coming here, I got thrown into a different situation and

uh initially and it was extremely stressful i never dealt with this type of stress before because all of a sudden it's a different system it's a very different way of doing things and kind of got thrown in the fire so i can really relate and i've talked i've talked to my friends about this many times where i actually had to make a decision in my life to just cut it all out because i was not happy in that type of situation so

My only way to relate is that before when I was in positions of power or responsibility, I was excelling in that position because it was under my control. Yeah. As opposed to being put into different uncomfortable situations and having to rely on different outlying factors that I could not influence. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, for me, I really like that being put into a difficult situation where it's really like sink or swim. And that to me is a lot more interesting where I was in Seattle and things were very automatic and I could see what was going to be coming around the corner next.

with opportunities or just the progression in my respective field. It's like with you where it becomes automatic. You know what you're doing. But for me, I just started to feel a little bit complacent

where I know I could, of course, learn more and evolve more as a person there. But I just felt like this sense of longing to get out and experience a different, you know, existence, a different reality for myself to change up my settings drastically. I think I had just gotten a little taste that when I was living in Germany and

And I wanted more of that to just meet people in situations where I feel when I travel abroad, I can just the way my vibration is at is like I'm more open to experiencing just new kinds of interactions where when I was in the States, it's more of like this complacent feeling.

familiar vibe that just keeps me in a lane that becomes a little bit redundant to me. So that was the whole reason of coming here of just wanting to experience the new and though it was like really stressful, I never thought in a moment, like I can't take this, I'm going to go back to America. For me, the most stressful thing would be going back to America knowing like. Yeah. Because that would be the final stamp of failure. Yeah.

100% and I like the feeling of going into something that makes you feel like you want to throw up a little bit like you're nervous but like for real I think that's good for you as long as you have like a healthy consciousness of where you're at and yeah this is a challenge but I'm confident that I can do this and this idea you're talking about um

I'm thinking like the word playbook comes in mind. It's just like, there's a difference between like what you're saying, I think is something can be really, really hard, right? And really difficult. It could be a challenge and you can welcome that, but at least, you know, the playbook, you know, you know, if you do certain things and they might be very hard things to do, they'll take time and a lot of energy and a lot of blood, sweat and tears to do, but you know what the next steps are. And it's kind of clear to you. The roadmap is relatively clear.

Whereas if you threw the playbook out and in an equally tough situation where the people you're leading don't necessarily want to see you succeed and you can't speak the language, you're just completely lost. Yeah.

And in an environment where you have to immediately perform. There's no learning curve. Like, hey, take your time. We'll be here. It's like, no. Day one, you got to hit the ground running. Just imagine going to a foreign country where you don't know how to speak the language and trying to lead a bunch of people on day one, like the anxiety. In any environment, let alone a notoriously pressure-packed,

kitchen environment, right? So I just, yeah, it's just insane. And it's this idea of, I think a lot of people can relate to us as long as we know kind of the playbook and the roadmap. The playbook, there's a lot of comfort. I'm really holding onto that. Oh, I really like that. You hold onto it, sir. But it's like, it's so true because that's like a comfort. That's at least a lifeline for you to come back to and to kind of figure out, okay, well, how am I doing it? Where am I going wrong? What do I do next? Okay. Yeah.

When you don't have a playbook, you're just completely lost and it's just chaos. Yeah, but then you get the opportunity to write a more adaptive version of it that then can just glean perspective on your previous playbooks. Going back to the States and viewing my playbook there after having new pages here of a life that you can't really experience and feel and understand until you're just here doing it.

or wherever you go that's not your home turf, that just challenge you on new fronts. That was a very real feeling I had. That was super rewarding for my own personal growth. Going back to the States after a couple of years and feeling like it wasn't another chapter written, it was just a whole different book. Dylan, this is fascinating. I have a question. So you were in over your head a little bit, it felt like. A lot of bit. Yeah.

And I'm curious, if we were to look at, I imagine that just because you're successful in one restaurant doesn't necessarily

necessarily like you might assume if you're if you're not if you are a lay person and you don't have any experience in restaurants you might assume that you could just take your success from one restaurant and bring it to another I think that's a probably quite naive way of looking at things just like any corporation right just because you're successful in one business or with one team it doesn't automatically translate anywhere else

I'm just curious from the culture and the system in place, the relationships and your leadership capabilities, like what were some of the factors that you think were at play when you made this transition to one of the most well-known restaurants here in China? Well, for me, the style of management in a Western kitchen is a lot different than

you know, a Chinese kitchen, the way that people think about things is a lot different. You can't go in guns blazing and try to like run people over

and be really aggressive like you are in a Western kitchen where it's more militant in the Western kitchen in ways, at least like- Were you militant in Seattle or did you have a different style? No, I was definitely more militant. We were all, I was never like in the chef role, but people who would come in below me in Seattle, we would really push each other and be very harsh. It's like not mincing words around how someone's doing something. It's like, you better perform or get the fuck out. What do you think you're doing?

You know, just being very direct. Yeah. And having to pull people off the line and be like, you know, because, you know, you put a lot of pride in your work. And when someone comes in and doesn't take it seriously, it's like, yeah, it was like that. But if you do that here, I found out very quickly. It's like, yeah, you know, you got to switch up the playbook a little bit.

I had to put my brochure on managing kitchens in the paper shredder, you know, and recreate a new, it's just, yeah, create a new one because I've always likened it to punching somebody in the ribs while giving them a shoulder massage at the same time where there's a way to really convey the message without

being like a dick about it and also without looking soft because if you're not a dick but then you're soft and they don't respect you so it's kind of the way i have to i manage kitchens here and i think it's different from what i've witnessed where if it's a local chinese person on managing local chinese it's a lot more aggressive

where they can be like that to each other but the dynamic i have is if i came in like some of these chinese chefs do to their underlings it's just like they would absolutely stab me in the back they would not they wouldn't respond yeah so just the culture difference um maybe they're not as comfortable i i'm not really sure where that is why that dynamic is different but it's very

And I don't want to run a kitchen out of fear. I know some Western chefs here are like really hard on their cooks, but I don't want to do that at all because it makes me stressed out. I don't like that environment of coming in and being like, oh my God, I better make all this correct or else I'm really going to hear about it.

nobody likes to create food you know you can feel it in the product if you're under the gun like that it's not it's good to have that pressure but in a way that's healthy for you and yeah yeah i adapted it so it's kind of like walking that line between we can be chill here but seriously don't cross me or else because then it'll be not chill very fast but not on a personal level i always make that very clear it's like

Yeah. I remember for sure the feeling when there was a chef coming down on me and how I could have gleaned the same perspective from an interaction that didn't have to be as severe. Yeah. It definitely showed me a way, but it took a lot of inner turmoil and that I don't, I mean, I don't think it was necessary. I don't need like shitty pressure and stress to make me into someone who can do it correctly.

So I think I would just say, have confidence in yourself, I think is first and foremost. And I think if you go into a situation as confident as you can be without being overconfident or having this ego up around feeling like I can perform, but not really being honest with yourself on what you can really take on, just being humble and like, I'm here for this experience. I'm gonna do the best that I can. And when I slip,

Or when I feel this growth, it's just looking at it. And that's hard to impart. Like you can give that advice all day, but when you're in it there and you're young and it's their first thing, and I feel like I had to travel over this to have perspective on it. But if I could just implant that perspective, it would just be,

Because people can sense when you're, you know, not really confident on your game and they're going to question you more from that. And then it's going to make you question yourself. Just the general vibration that you put out for sure is going to be different than one of feeling like, I got this. Yes, there's some parts that I don't know, but I'm here in front of you right now because I know I can see this through. And any challenges that I face, I'll have the tools

To deal with them and get through it. And I just lost my train of thought, but I was going to say something around, I don't know. It was a good thought. Well, let me know when you think of it. Do you have kids, Dylan? No, I have just a dog. Okay. It's my baby. Because I was going to say, like, there's like a lot of parallels in terms of this idea of managing people and leadership and

And we've talked about the idea of what's the bigger motivator, fear or joy or reward. And there's always a balance between the two, right? And so I just felt like there's probably a lot of parallels. What struck me was when you were talking about like, oh, I want to punch them in the ribs, but give them a shoulder massage at the same time. And you want to tell people how it is, but without holding their hand through everything.

And I'm just thinking like, like there's a lot of parallels to leadership in general, but even to like parenthood, right? Like how, how do you want to raise your kids and what's like the best balance of discipline and giving them their space to grow, but while being there and guiding them, like it's an art, right? And, you know, because we're, Howie and I are new parents. So we're just kind of like, we're, we're, we're also kind of just figuring this balance out in general in terms of,

How do you guide people? How do you lead people? Yeah, I think I want to push what you're saying one step further because what I wanted to add and open up a conversation that's a little bit more general about leadership, about management. One thing that I've always heard working here is when working with vendors or staff, there is a sort of quote-unquote unsaid but sometimes said thing

Chinese way, which is a lot more straightforward, strict, strong-worded, fierce, mean almost, yelling kind of way of communicating where you're showing dominance, you're showing power, especially when working with other people that are below you. So there is a certain fear, whether it's people below you or vendors that you work with.

Do you feel that? Did you feel that sort of way of management or way of communicating in a kitchen here, even though it was a foreign chef, I'm presuming? Or did you not feel that difference? Yeah, I mean, definitely amongst Chinese working with each other, there's a different... I mean, it depends on the kitchen.

But from my, you know, the outside looking in, I feel like the way that Chinese will interact with each other in these situations a lot different than they'll interact with me. And, you know, they will accept the information differently than if I was to go in and do the same action.

you know because i i hone into one thing you said which is one of the chefs said that you need to treat them like dogs and it makes me think back to was it a chinese chef or like a french foreign french because it makes me think back to without being specific a certain time period in my life where i was literally told by somebody when speaking to a vendor you

You're too nice. Why are you talking to them as if they're your friend? Yeah. They're your vendor. If anything, you should be yelling at them. Make them feel that stress that they need to give you the best price. Make them feel that stress that they cannot fuck with you. Yeah. Right? And you don't treat them any other way. And I remember thinking, no, but we're negotiating. I can't just...

lay down the law. It's like, no, that's not the way it works here. So it was very conflicting for me thinking about that. And also just in general today even, sometimes the way I see communication styles

that are not my style that are a lot more degrading and I just can't deal with that. I don't like that. So yeah, it just made me think of that to what you just said about the treating like dogs. Yeah, I mean, I can't go to that extent. I know that I would probably benefit from it. I mean, I definitely make it harder for myself being softer in situations like that in the sense of not being able to hold the line as well with restaurant standards, say like the quality of the ingredients.

If you're not on them about delivering something that's really good and on time and not returning it in that moment, you're just going to become like their trash dump where they take the lowest quality products that they have at the end to offload on a restaurant they know will accept it. And you have to hold your line on that.

But you just like hope for this. I feel like I encounter a lot of things here where I don't want to ever talk down on, you know, Chinese people or the way that they want to do things here. But it's just like, oh, why do I have to pursue it like this? Why can't you just give me the good stuff on time or do this like that?

I tell the guys in the kitchen the way to do something so many times. I can be a dick about it. I can be nice about it. It just doesn't resonate. And I was like, where's the disconnect? That's been the biggest thing for me here. It's just like, gosh, no matter how I approach it sometimes, it feels like it's a reset every day of just doing things that are stupid. I think, I mean, that's any career, right? I always start to feel entitled when I start talking like this.

because already when I'm in the kitchen living a life, it's so fucking good, man. Like where I've come from, when I started here to now, even when I first started here, it's just so much better than so many ways people are living. And it makes me stunt my own aspirations. Like I don't deserve it. How could I want more? How could I be dissatisfied with this? Or how could I ever talk like I have an emotional problem?

You know, look at what you have in front of you. And sometimes that makes me just bottle it up where I feel kind of ashamed to express to anybody that I don't feel anything less than great, like as I should, but it's just not the truth.

I don't think you should be ashamed about that at all. I mean, it's worse if you just pile it up. Yeah. Because then it explodes in unpredictable and nasty ways that are even have even worse outcomes. Yeah. And don't be too hard on yourself. I mean, the restaurant business is famously frustrating and difficult. Yeah. I don't think it's like every other business. There's levels to this, right? Yeah.

And of course, like every business has their own challenges. Justin used to be in restaurants. Okay. That's why he's speaking very- I have a little experience and obviously nothing compared to you. Yeah, I worked at a few kitchens before and-

But anyway, like I think the restaurant business, like I couldn't hack it. I was, I worked in there for like two years and I was like, okay, yeah, this is not for me. Yeah. This isn't, this is, I'm like, I'm outie. I've seen a lot of those. And I'm like, I am never looking back again. So yeah, man, I think it's especially and notoriously difficult. And I mean, hearing you talk about it.

Is this like bringing up all these old memories for me as well. But with all the difficulties you're going through or you've been through and probably to some extent still go through, you know, what, what keeps you here in China? Because you started off saying you came to China before because you wanted to be something you wanted to experience something completely new. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a question in that as well in terms of like, I mean, you could have moved to any other country. It would have also been you. Why China? Yeah.

- Well, to answer the second question first, it was China because my sister was living here. And I just came to visit her a year prior to moving here for real. And that visit for me, it was deeply impactful just to see her speaking the language, getting on with a new culture here.

Just doing all these things that were, to me, so interesting. Is she still here? No, she's in Budapest now. Nice. Yeah, but she was here for the first couple years that I was living here and offered like a really awesome foundation. But it was just one of those things to tie into the first question you asked is like,

When is it time to move or what's, you know, what's keeping me here or any of those kind of transition life decisions, I think just present themselves as they naturally will be.

with some intention around it, but it wasn't even on my radar to come to China beyond just visiting my sister. And, oh, it'd be cool. But then when I was here, I remember in that moment, for whatever the reason was, she was living near

near Tianzi Fang. So we were coming up the escalator of the Dapu Chao station. And I told her before I was even out on the street, like straight from the airport onto this through the metro, not even really walking on the real street here. I was like, Catlin, I'm moving here in one year. It's not like everybody's story. Like they come for a visit. It's one of those things. Yeah. They're like, okay. I just knew it. Yeah. For what it just felt right. And there was zero resistance in that path. It just felt like this is what I'm going to do.

And then I was here for a few week trip, you know, popped around Shanghai, went to Chengdu, just all super awesome. And I told the, when I went back to the States, I was like, yeah, you guys just want to give my one year notice this time next year, I'm definitely going to make a transition out of here.

And they took that with a grain of salt in the moment, whatever, it's fine. But then, yeah, it came time and that was it. And then one thing just led to the next. And, you know, 13 years later, just like we're sitting here talking about it. And I don't know, like when the real time of transition is going to come, but I feel like it's going to be another one of those things that just presents itself with a little bit of idea. Like I have Thailand on my radar.

But then also Elliot is talking about wanting to do a project in Spain that he feels like really, he's like, we're going to Spain.

So, but I just, at that point, like I just got to wait for these moments to come up for real and just see where do I feel in this moment? What's going to happen? Like if the stars align. Yeah. Yeah. That's always, I can only plan for so much, but I think when it's there, it's just going to unfold. If it doesn't feel right to go, I don't think I will. If there's some kind of opportunity that comes up.

And there's always going to be a little bit of that unknowing anxiety, of course. But it's just balancing that with, does that mean like, I think you'll just know. For me, I just know. Yeah. Well, this principle you have of not forcing anything and not forcing yourself to do anything and letting opportunities present itself naturally and feeling it.

Is that post-heart attack Dylan speaking or were you already like that before the heart attack? I think it's more post. So would you consider yourself a very different person before it? Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, it was more like...

having a very stubborn idea of what I need to do, what I need to become, all these things. And if I wasn't doing something that felt like in alignment, like I wasn't doing it correctly, I just didn't really see, I didn't have any compassion for that. I just had hatred of myself for like, what is going on?

You did so well in the States, why are you fucking up here? And it's not okay. How can you not love cooking? You've been doing this for, I mean, at the time I hadn't been cooking for long when I, maybe six or seven years of doing it for real before I moved here.

But that was still very early. And it felt like, well, if I'm not cooking, what am I doing? It was just kind of like a... Very black and white. Yeah. Yeah. And that was like super stressful to me. I just felt lost. I mean, I still feel lost for sure sometimes. But not to the extent of really feeling like I need to fit my peg in that hole. And if I can't peg that thing, I don't want to like stick it anywhere else. You know, like it's just kind of...

Would it be an oversimplification to say it's like, you know, death brings perspective or like a brush with death kind of brings perspective and it's sort of like this life is too short. So why do things you don't want to do kind of thing? Yeah, I mean, that's the essence of it. It at least gives you the awareness of when you're doing something that you don't want to be. Like I've still lived a life for...

I mean, however many years it's been now, and we're getting to the math part, which is like 14. And so it's been 10 years, right? If it happened in 14, yeah. Oh, yeah. With math, I always start to get like the pulsing around my temples when it comes to numbers. I'm like, oh my goodness, but I got that one right. So 2024, 10 years of definitely having the perspective, but not really taking the action.

it's yeah i've been a more more constant of that where i think i'm just taking like i don't know like i want to just climb straight up the mountain peak but i'm taking this country road with so many detours uh and maybe that's just part of the process i've come to like it's a lot more scenic yeah it seems like that's more important to you yeah and so i i just keep it light where okay i'm not fulfilling it

I'm still like being a real snake about a lot of things. That's how I'd say it. But I'm going to keep moving on and just have the best intentions and see if I ever make anything of it, you know, I guess. Hell yeah, man. God, I'm so jealous. I really like that way of thinking.

I used to feel more like that. Yeah, it's a good way of thinking, I feel. I mean, to each their own, right? What do your friends and family feel about you still being out here in China? I mean, right around lockdown, there was definitely probably most families of like, why are you still there? Are you sure that's the best opportunity for you? Are you only staying there because you feel like... And they were asking me a lot of moral questions like, hey, you don't need to feel...

guilt about pulling the plug just do what's in your heart while still kind of having this agenda like that didn't seem healthy are you sure you want to be in a place that this type of thing can go down and yeah I definitely questioned if I wanted to yeah that that definitely made me think a little bit on it and uh then I just inevitably yeah ended up staying here for I thought I was going to be like after lockdown just like time to go to

Europe or something. But there was that dialogue with both my sister, I was the older sister, my mom and dad, and they were all having that. Well, Dylan, didn't you talk about checking out Slovakia or like the Czech Republic? And they pushed that conversation for a while. But then I think they just naturally could feel I'm happy and safe when I'm doing here. I don't feel like I'm trapped here. If I really needed to leave for my well-being, I would.

And they just had confidence in my own decisions. And so there hasn't really been any conversation on it since. It's more like when you feel it's time to do your thing and wherever that may be, I mean, of course, just go. Where are they now? My dad is in Idaho. He's been living there for a couple of years in Idaho. I just saw his house for the first time last summer. I was like,

And then my mom is in the San Juan Islands, Lopez Island. Oh, near Seattle. Yeah. North of Seattle. Yeah. They're doing their thing there. Yeah. It's all good. I just want to shift for a second because we didn't talk about another side of you that I was very interested in when Eric was mentioning about you, which is the DJ side. Okay. And the music side. And I think that's something that, I mean, Justin and I also have played music in the past. Yeah.

So you DJ? Yeah. What's that about? Like, I want to hear about it. Oh man, the apartment I was living in, in Seattle, I was playing vinyl at the time with just the Serato, the time code. And the way that the kitchen was set up was there was this center island with the stove on it. And then behind you was the oven. And then there was this little cutout in the wall that looked into the living room. And there was just enough space there to put the two turntables and the mixer and

And so I'd have these dinner parties where I'd be cooking and then the mix would be going and then I would just transfer over and like put things in the mix. That is awesome. Yeah, but the way it was in the same space was sick. It was just, yeah. His wheels are turning. Justin's wheels are turning. Yeah, I mean, the actual, the act of cooking is very relaxing.

If you get into the flow and you're in a busy enough kitchen where your movements start to become automatic, where you don't need to think about the movement you use to open the oven with your tongs and then get the pan or where your mixing bowl is for your salad, all of it because you have to work so fast. That line dance is super rewarding where your timing can be on point with someone else on the station next to you because you have to coordinate the dishes with each other. That whole thing,

And at that time, there's no music playing because it's really intense service for the most part. You're just going. The music is like the sound of the cooking. But definitely, yeah, there's the when a good song comes on and you're in your flow. When I was in Germany, that was like Germany was huge, stressful for me as well. But there was a song that was like it was Cupid's Chokehold. Oh.

But the original of that was like, ba-na-na-na, take a look at my girlfriend. And I was just like, yeah. That was my lift-me-up track because they would always listen to the radio there. And when that song would come on, that was my jam. Music with food is essential. I got to have the right... Right, they go hand in hand. Yeah. So the latest one I've really been into, Songs with Cooking.

Chocolat, that movie. The film. Johnny Depp. Johnny Depp. That whole movie soundtrack is so good for aspirational cooking. Wow. Yeah. From the opening song all the way through, it's like a journey of...

Just being focused and ready and using your heart's inspiration to create an artful meal and experience for the service to come. And then the service to come is what has kept me cooking is being able to express something from my heart that can be absorbed by another person to see someone enjoying a dish or to have an experience like when Eric came with his lady, just the experience they had,

was really rewarding to me to see someone really into the food that I had created with a lot of my own passion and creativity I felt really strongly about. Those moments are what make it worth it to me to create something special that someone really enjoys. - Anyway, Dylan, it's been awesome talking to you, man. You feel like an incredible human being. Thank you for coming on and sharing really inspiring, really touching stories.

And man, thank you so much. And I wish you the best of luck on your journey. Cheers, brother. Cheers. Honored to be on here equally. It's a really amazing experience for me. You know, I enjoyed talking to it and it really just through talking about all this, it's just, it was like writing a journal, right? It just, again, I'm going to walk away from this feeling very enriched. And you're going to burn the episode. Thanks again. Cheers. Cheers. All right, guys.

Happy Sunday. Happy Sunday. All right. That was Dylan. I'm Justin. I'm Howie. And I'm burning. Be good. Be well. Peace.