#23. Rich & Claudia: Animated Lives
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Hey, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. As always, you can reach us at thehonestdrink at gmail.com. And if you've been enjoying this podcast, go ahead, rate, comment, or subscribe. Now, today, our

Our guests both work in the crazy Los Angeles film and television industry. Richard is a freelance 3D animator. He's worked on a whole spectrum of projects over the years, from commercials to some of Hollywood's biggest blockbusters and franchises, like The Fast and the Furious, Star Wars, or my personal favorite, The Guardians of the Galaxy. He is also an incredible illustration artist doing all sorts of crazy drawings by hand.

We are also joined on the show today by Claudia. She is a visual effects artist with two decades of experience in the LA film and TV industry.

I mean, we had such a good time talking to them both. We chopped it up today about animation, freelancing versus being on payroll, competition in the workplace, the pressures of working for a major Hollywood studio, and the struggles of finding a career path you really love. Honestly, I don't think we've laughed this hard on any episode we've ever done before. It was so much fun having these two on. So without further ado, please welcome Richard DeForno and Claudia E. Leone.

So today we got the, what is this, Aberfeldy?

is that how you pronounce it adversaries right highland single malt scotch whiskey 16 years uh thank you for bringing this all right yeah so cheers got a nice sweet scent to it i'm gonna smell it yeah i got it where did i get it i think the hong kong airport yeah in hong kong airport all right cheers cheers cheers to voltron to voltron that's good that's good stuff yeah it's got a little bit of peatiness those

Not that much, though. Not that much, but it's a malty kind of flavor, a little nutty, I feel. No, it's a vast fault. You just really want to say ass. But I like it. It's very good. All right. Rich, Claudia, thank you guys for coming. Thanks for having us. No problem.

Sorry, yeah, we only set up for four mics, so whenever you speak, I'm going to swing the mic over to you. And bop her in the head. So for the listeners who are listening, if she sounds kind of faint in the beginning, it's because we only got four mics.

But we got five people here. So let's just get started. Rich, welcome back. You used to live in Shanghai for a while, right? I did, yeah, for six years from 2003 to 2009. So, wow. Okay, so those were the, that's like the golden years. It was, yeah, I think it was, you know. I think in my time I saw like a really big change from the beginning to the end. But...

Yeah, it was kind of like a really fun time to be here, you know, it was kind of before things were really starting to happen. In what way? Like what makes it the golden years or what makes it fun times?

I think it was just like, you know, a simpler time in a sense, you know. I think it was like things were just starting. They were just like foreigners starting to come over and like things really starting to pick up. But just, it was just a really fun kind of time, I think. Well, we have a term for it here on The Honest Drink. We call it the wild, wild east. Ha!

Back then. Exactly. It was kind of like a new frontier for like foreigners coming here. And if you were an expat or you grew up, you know, out of the country and you came here for the first time, it was like a new frontier. And it was kind of like anything goes. And it was not as sterile and as civilized as it is today, obviously. So it was a crazy time to be here. But because it was kind of like no rules, it was a lot of fun to be had as well.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that's something, you know, that I enjoyed about it was kind of that chaotic sort of quality. And I think that's what a lot of people enjoyed about it, too. Some people didn't understand it when they'd come to visit. You know, like I'd have friends come from like America or other places and they just would...

say like like why do you live here like it's so it's so kind of like messed up you know but i think that's what i enjoyed about it too was like it was it was kind of fascinating and it was like always an adventure always like yeah you don't know what the day how the day is going to unfold sometimes right

Yeah, I mean, like messed up stuff happened and, you know, you always kind of like were on your toes, so to speak. I always say like, you know, Shanghai is rough around the edges, right? Especially back then. But it's those roughness around those edges that gives it its charm. You know, when it's too clean cut and, you know, the edges are too straight and square and clean, then it loses character in a way.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's kind of, you know, if you look at the world, you know, that's something Claudia and I talk a lot about, like when we travel, you know, there's a homogeneity to a lot of the world that's increasing, I think. You know, in a lot of places, you go somewhere and it's like fair trade coffee, we got the fucking, you know, quinoa, like acai bowl, like everywhere is like increasingly...

And, you know, it's nice when you kind of like can experience something that's a little bit kind of outside of that, you know? Yeah. And so, I mean, you definitely, it's nice being back in Shanghai and seeing it like clean and all that. But like, yeah, part of me misses the kind of rough edges. Can I ask you something? Sure. I mean, whatever pops in your head, can you throw any little story nuggets of...

you know, things that happened during your stay between 2003, 2009 that embodies this wild, wild East mentality. Wild, wild East mentality. Well, I mean, you know, like just something really simple, like that. I remember like taking it like a taxi, for example, I, um, I was taking a taxi one time and the driver just said like, you know, boy, he's a way out. He stopped, he got out and just peed on the side of the road. He

He just started peeing like right on the side of the road. That's fair game. Just like right there, like right on the road. He's like, sorry, I just got to unload. Yeah, he's like, I'm sorry, I just got to take a pee like right now. And we stopped and I opened up my wallet and I didn't have any change. And I gave him like a big, I gave him like $100.

And then he's, like, counting out, like, he's like, E, R, and I was like, but don't, please keep the change. You know, it's just, like, so dirty. And then we just, you know, with Eric, we just took, like, a DD or whatever, and there was, like, an air purifier. And there's, like, I don't know, like, moist towelettes. And your taxi driver back then actually kept the change. Yes. Nobody takes tips here. No. Today.

It's less common now. But, you know, there's some people that still do. But you're right. Like just in a decade's time, really 10 years, because you left in what, 2009, you said, right? That's right. 2019, that's 10 years.

You know, it's changed a lot. Obviously, we almost talk about this on the show, but the infrastructure has obviously changed. That's the most obvious thing when you first come here. But socially, like you're saying, people are less inclined to take tips. You have little details in the culture and society like air purifiers in the cars, water bottles, the technology boom of just even having an app like Didi here.

it the speed of change and the the the amount of change is crazy and i can't like even for us we notice it but we get very uh because we live here day to day so we don't really notice the changes as much as a person like you who you haven't been here in 10 years and now boom you're throwing right back right back in so it must be like a big big change for you like was it shocking

A little bit. I mean, I live in Los Angeles and I actually felt right at home when I moved to Los Angeles because it kind of felt like an emerging economy when I moved there. Like,

it's like a beautiful shithole is kind of like the way i described it when i moved there because you have like these like pockets of extreme wealth and there's like natural beauty and things like that but it's like really run down yeah and um you know it's actually improved a lot too in the time i've been in los angeles like a lot of people move there a lot of infrastructure a lot of buildings and things like that have been you know kind of coming together but um

poverty and homelessness there is at an all-time high and it's so bad that like plague has basically like typhus has broken out i mean there's like just like you go to like skid row in downtown la i was working down there recently and i have one of those like

one wheels, you know, it's like that, like a go-kart tire on the board. Yeah, so I was riding it and I was like riding down through there and they have like the police blocked off this like street and they were just like hosing down all of this like feces and like vomit and there's just like trash and it's like,

- It's fucked up, dude. - That's all over California too, right? - Yeah, it's a huge problem. And coming here, like, yeah, coming here, people used to just cross the street randomly, like spit on the street. And now, I remember someone was trying to cross before the, you know, it was time on the crossing, the pedestrian signal, and the cop was like, "No." I was like, "What?"

It feels like people are cleaning things nonstop. They are. I kept looking at the streets and I'm like, they're so clean. They're sweeping the streets nonstop. There's nothing to clean anymore. It's clean so often. It's almost like OCD hand washing. No, it is. Because they have so much labor here. Everyone needs a job, right? So they have these jobs to fill. So they can have these jobs where they have...

plenty of people to fill these jobs and do these jobs like cleaning the streets every every half an hour you know basically it feels like you know i don't know if that's true but it feels like that yeah when we were in lijiang just now there was um we were walking past a river and uh there there were trees over the river it's autumn so all the leaves are falling into the river there's a woman scooping

the leaves out of the river like this is these are like miles and miles of trees like dropping their leaves in and that was her job every day to keep this perfectly pristine river like like a pool boy but for an entire river yeah exactly yeah yeah it's pretty crazy it's pretty crazy yeah so so what else in your perspective 10 years not returning to shanghai that really stood out to you that you know changed

I think a thing too, because I came to China as early as like, what was it, like 99 or something like that? I studied Mandarin in college and I remember like watching TV on like a, I forget what the brand was, but like Panda television or something. It was some like brand. And I remember someone that was like in my like study group saying like, oh yeah, it's going to be a while before like...

Chinese products are ever like up to snuff or good or whatever and now there's like a company like Digi for example which which makes drones and gimbals and things like that and it's like some of the very best stuff in the world you know and there's this impression of like whoa like China's kind of come up and it feels like it feels a little more like ahead of the curve in some ways and

It feels like futuristic. Do you feel that in America? Like, you know, because you live there, right? I live there. And, you know, do you hear this? Do you feel that? Because we live in China, so we don't really get too much of this feeling, you know? Like, in other words, did you feel that way before coming back? Well, the thing that I've noticed, because I have been paying attention to it, is like, you know, yeah, like, for example, like...

That's a good example, like that company Digi, you know. But being in arts, you know, being an animator, I've also seen like a quality of like films and animation and

increase over time and even things like research like Claudia's um her brother-in-law is a is a is a scientist yeah and he was a physicist and 10 years ago um he was at a conference and he was kind of like ranking all the physicists by country he's like oh Chinese physicists are like the worst you know they're so shitty all they know how to do is copy um

And you were having a conversation with him just this year, right? Yeah, I was asking him about it because, you know, there's there's I think a lot of people like in America, there's there's like there's like a weird sort of like anxiety or like wondering about like China, you know?

And so you see all these articles and I'm just like about like AI, like the AI, like arms race and like 5G and like things like that. And I was asking him like, you know, what's what's the quality of like the research being done there now? And he's like, honestly, it's like it didn't used to be good, but it's like it's good now.

Yeah. You know, so you, in a lot of different aspects, you really see that. But like another really good small example from our trip was we were in Lijiang and we went to this little, it was like a, it was like a little yogurt and bread store in this ancient town, which is like, it's quite touristy. It's quite, you know, but it's, it's, you know, it's beautiful. It's really nice there. And we went there and they have this thing, it's like coffee bread. It's

It's this bread. It's like a puffy bread made with coffee and it has butter in the middle. Sounds delicious. It's fucking delightful, dude. Is it like a caffeinated bread? Does it have caffeine in it? I guess so. It sounds delicious. It's really good. It was really, really nice. I was blown away with it. We went back a couple days in a row. But the first day we went there and ate it, I asked the guy, I said, is this like a Japanese brand? He's like, no, this is from China.

This is from Lee Jong. We make it here. This is ours. And I was like, whoa. It's pretty sophisticated. We should actually approach that guy and franchise that brand. That can be a big thing. You know what I mean? Yeah, it sounds legit. Right? I mean, if they're making it locally there, no one else really has this. We should go and check it out. I thought it was JJ Dong Dong, but it's a character for ding. So it's actually like ding, ding, dong, dong.

I thought it was JJ Dong Dong. It's got the perfect name already. Oh, Ding looks like a J. Yeah, we were like Googling it. I was like, where's JJ Dong Dong? It's Ding, right? It looks like that.

So this is for the listeners out there that know Chinese. The character of Ding looks like a J. So that's why he's saying that. That's really cool, man. So I think going back to what you're saying in terms of China coming up, especially with technology and AI...

I think that's a, and we're not going to get political on this episode today, but I just wanted to say, like, I think that is one of the main causes of a lot of the tension, political tension between the United States and China right now is that China is becoming, quote unquote, threat, a competitor to the power of the United States economically. So that in any, if you go back in history and look at all the kind of like

changes of like power and world powers. It's always a threat of another country coming up and taking that number one spot, so to speak. You know what I mean? And it creates a lot of tension and friction and it's going to last for a long time. This quote unquote cold war that we're in. It's going to last a long time. Oh yeah, for sure. I could easily see that.

Going back to, so you're an animator, right? A 3D animator? Yeah, I do 3D animation, like character animation. Yeah, I read that. So character animation, that sounds really interesting. And I've seen, like, you've worked with, like, brands like Marvel and, like... Yeah, yeah, I've worked on, like, Guardians of the Galaxy 2, like...

Aquaman. So I did a little bit of Instagram stalking on you. Oh, yeah. And I saw you did a post. You did a, how do you pronounce it? Previs? Previs, yeah. And you were posting a scene of Guardians of the Galaxy 2. Yes. And that scene was actually my favorite scene in any Marvel movie.

picture ever and that's when Yondu gets his arrow back and he's walking through the ship and he's killing everybody and there's a soundtrack going on that whole sequence is one of my favorite is my favorite scene of any Marvel picture ever

And you worked on that? Yeah, it's really, yeah. Yeah, I did. It's really a cool sequence. You know, like the thing that was interesting about that was we got storyboards for it. And the storyboards were so good that they tossed them in After Effects. So it was like a sequence. And it was almost like it was animated. Like everything. Already, yeah. Yeah, we were sitting there like, I don't know why we're here. Yeah.

So what were you responsible for? So previs is basically like, it's a way, it's a technique for filmmakers to kind of like basically make all the decisions before you film. So you use like physically accurate cameras within a 3D program. So it's exactly like...

you know, the dimensions of the real world. Like shot for shot. Yeah, so we're using like a 30 millimeter where like two feet off the ground, you know, and you get like all the placement, all the action, you figure out exactly what's happening. And it works especially well for stuff like Marvel movies where it's like... Action sequences. Really, really expensive. It's not like, oh, let's just, you know, try this out and see what happens. Let's preview this green book. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, so you would know something about this, right? How he is a filmmaker himself. Right, yeah, yeah. So it's, I mean, I think for that kind of stuff, it's helpful. I mean, obviously, for a lot of things, you don't need it. But for like Marvel movies...

or like Fast and Furious or things like that. Is that also something, is that another picture you worked on too? I did work on that, yeah. Wow, which one? There's been like 80 of them. I worked on, I've never watched. I worked on a couple of them. I think I worked on one that's coming out

I feel like they're coming out with another one. Yeah, and I worked on eight. Yeah, where they're on like the ice. Oh, okay. Yeah. Was it that sequence that you were working on? That sequence, yeah. So in what capacity were you involved in that? Yeah, it's also previs. In that case, what they do with that kind of style with Fast and Furious is you basically animate everything for like five minutes, and then they...

The director comes in and like puts the cameras where he wants them. Okay. You know what I mean? Instead of like doing it like shot per shot. Because usually you just like, you have like a storyboard and you're like, oh, like the helicopter comes down this way. The car is going forward. But you, in that style with like the Fast and Furious movies, they, what they're trying to do is they're planning how they're going to drive all this stuff.

stuff and how they're actually gonna shoot it and um it's also kind of like it's hard too because they can only go so fast with those cars so you have to like make it look fast they can only actually go like 40 miles per hour so it's like really wide lenses like low to the ground like looking up and

you know, they have this much distance to travel. And like if a train is hitting the truck, you know, how far do you start back? So like just a lot of things like that. It's actually like a lot of planning that goes into it. So like percentage wise, like how much of it is like real action shots versus like animation or CGI and, you know, things like that?

That's a good question. I don't really know. But there's a lot of, like, there's a lot of, like, with a lot of films, I mean, I think, like, you don't notice that it's a special, you know, special effect. The special effects are so fucking good nowadays. Yeah, it's like set extensions and things like that. Like, you just accept it visually. Like, it looks photo real, so you don't know. There's...

Almost no more pyro done. Like explosions, that's so expensive. And just like in terms of insurance and OSHA, you can make it look fine in CG. So the explosions and fire are realistic enough now? Absolutely. Where people can't even tell the difference anymore. I don't work on movies myself, but I do a lot of commercials. And I can tell you that every single car that you see in a car commercial is not real.

Really? Yeah. Because they look so photorealistic now. Yeah. Cars. Yeah. And because I've been in the industry about 20 years. Wow. And when I started, they would shoot real cars. And then someone like me would paint out every imperfect reflection.

To make the car look perfect. That's so time consuming, I would have to believe, right? Just make a CG car with perfect reflections. And yeah. I can even give an example. I just did a shoot yesterday and it was for new earbuds coming out for a certain brand. And basically there's a lot of effects in the shoot. And plus the earbuds, they're still not final design.

So basically we have... There's prototypes? Yeah, and there's just like little small details that are still getting updated. And so when we're shooting it, we have the prototype, right? But basically we have our post supervisor on set to make sure that all the markers are there and all that stuff because they're replacing it. So basically it's all going to be fake. Yeah.

But it's, you know, it's earphones, you know, in your ear. Wow. Yeah. So, I mean, that's pretty standard. Like, anything that is not human is perfectly replicable. And here I was, the naive consumer, thinking everything I saw on TV was real. Fucking Voltron. Cheers. Cheers, guys. Cheers.

I didn't know that. So every car in every car commercial is CGI now. So what's the difference between CGI and animation? Is it all the same or what is it? I mean, I think, yeah, basically you could... CGI is like a catch-all for anything. It's like computer-generated images. But if it's moving, I mean, technically it's animation, but there's different kinds of animation. So I do character animation, which is like...

where you manipulate like a skeleton of something. Like if you think about like stop motion, like with a doll, where you like pose it, like pose by pose, you know, that's one kind of animation. And then there's like dynamics or effects where you do like smoke or fire, like lasers or things like that.

So that's another kind. There's a lot of different like specialties or aspects of it. So how would you describe character animation?

Character animation is like performance. So it's kind of like acting. It's like making something move. That could be like a human, an animal, like a little hot dog, like a little sausage or something. An Australian taco. An Australian taco, yeah. Eric told me you worked on Spider-Man or one of the Spider-Mans. No, I didn't. Well, I worked for Spider-Verse. I worked on the...

End credit sequence. Oh. So I didn't actually work. I wish I worked on the movie itself, but I worked on the end credit sequence for it. Well, Spider-Verse was fucking awesome. Yeah, it was fucking amazing. Yeah, like that really blew me away. Yeah, I wasn't expecting it to be like, I'm like, okay, it's gonna be for kids. It's like, it's not gonna be like, but I watched it.

I was like completely drawn into it. Probably the best Spider-Man. I think it's the best Spider-Man movie hands down. And I feel like it's better than the movies. It's better than the movies and it captured the character the best. The styles are so great. Artistically, yeah. I mean, the animation was like perfect. Yeah, amazing. It was fucking incredible. It was just like this mix mash of styles and it just looked great, you know? Yeah. It was really good. Good story. So you work on video games as well?

Not so much video games. I've worked, when I first started, I worked on a few mobile games, but not so much the video games. Yeah. So what are you working on these days? The last thing I worked on was a short for Star Trek. I think it's going to be on CBS. They have like, there's a Picard show coming out, you know? Really? Yeah.

Yeah, he's coming back. And so they have like... All CG? Yeah, Picard. They've totally replicated Picard. Like young Picard? That's what they're doing now, right? So now they're, for example, the most recent Scorsese film, right? The Irishman, right? They have the young De Niro and young Pacino. Right. You can get on stage with Tupac. Yeah.

Yeah. Or even Star Wars, right? Yeah. Dead characters back to life, you know? I mean, these days, CG is pretty insane. And if a lot of people who don't know or are not privy to this kind of information, they would never even think twice. They would just be like, oh, yeah, that's real. Yeah. Yeah.

It's interesting, though, because, I mean, like, it is, you do have this idea of, like, uncanny valley, which is, like, if something is 99%, like, human perfect, if it's 99% or, like, between 99 and 100, it looks weird.

Like it's disturbing because it's not human. Like it's slightly off. Like it looks like a corpse come to life or something like that. That just goes to show like how highly tuned our human brains and sensitivity is to these little things. Like you're saying like 1% off, like we can tell, like innately just tell. It's like there's something off about it, there's something weird about it. It's unsettling. That's why the plastic surgery, we were talking about that at lunch. Like all the folks that have gone through plastic surgery

trips to Korea and come back and they look like really grotesque. Yeah, it's like you can't like really put your finger on it. You can't like...

I don't know where, but it just doesn't seem right. There's some part of that. They look alien. Yeah, it looks like animation from like 20 years ago where they could... Like Final Fantasy from like 20 years ago where they kind of like were there, but not quite. But this is like on a live human being. It's really strange. It just shows how intricate the facial expressions are. And like our visual... Like human visual cortex. And how shallow these people are. Like how like...

through evolution, you can just like any like small minute change. Like you wouldn't even be able to point it out. But innately you just know there's something wrong. Yeah. It's just crazy. And like 50%, what is it? Like 50% of your brain is like your visual cortex. So most of the, like imagine like your brain is like a CPU. Half of the processing power is dedicated to be able to process information. Right.

So it's quite incredible. So Rich, where do you see the future of animation technology going? Because it's at a level now where you can hardly even distinguish. You have to have a trained eye to maybe tell the difference, maybe. So in another 10 years, how much crazier is it going to get? Well, I mean, I think some people, they feel like...

People get worried. For example, there's a lot of motion capture, especially in films and video games where they use actors.

And even like with the iPhone, you know, like you can use your face to animate like a character, for example. And some people feel like, oh no, you know, that's the end of my job or something like that. I don't see that as really like a problem. If anything, I mean, I think like technology is only going to, you know, exponentially increase and it's just going to be, it's going to make things easier. And so really it's just a matter of like injecting

taste or sensibility into things, you know, but the process is going to get easier, I think. You know what I mean? So you don't think as the technology advances and there's more advancements in AI that, especially in your field as an animator, it would displace human labor? I mean...

Maybe. Who knows? Really. But I mean, not anytime soon. You know, because I mean, even like with motion capture, it's like, you know, they might use that on like a Batman game and they have like a realistic like run cycle. But then someone has to like come in.

And they add little adjustments to it to make it look like Batman. Like Batman wouldn't walk like this. You have to have him like, you know. Like the human touch. Yeah, like a little bit of like the human touch, you know. Like I think machines are like only going to get better and better at doing certain things. And like maybe at one point it'll be indistinguishable. But I mean until that point, it's like you still kind of need like a human touch. And I think like things like, you know, like you can't motion capture a dragon, right?

Or like an eight tentacles.

You know, I mean, like there's and like cartoony stuff, like something like Spider-Man, where it's really stylized, like it's a real human touch. I don't know until there's an algorithm that like can like. Yeah, I think for like standard, standard, let's say human animation in the future, I think it's just going to get it's going to progress to a certain level where maybe in the in the past you have people specifically doing facial people specifically doing body and stuff like that. But then maybe technology gets to the point where, you know, one person can do it all.

And because the computer is helping you clean up everything and do everything through some sort of pre-programmed algorithms, right? And so that can maybe, I can foresee reduction in team members, right? Reduction, right? And so you don't have, like for example now, you have like hundreds of people doing effects or animation for certain projects, right? But then maybe in the future, you don't. You don't need 100, you need 10. Like one person can do the job of 10 people.

Yeah, in a certain way. Yeah, exactly. Just from a time perspective, they can do it faster. But human tastes evolve, and so we're basing this on what the expectation is today. But I think the thing that evolves is what our expectation is, and Rich mentioned stylization. So in five years, ten years, our tastes will change, our preferences will change, and our expectations will change. That's why when you go back and look at the old Star Treks, they just look so primitive. Right.

And so as the technology evolves, our expectations for...

what we see will change and that'll create new needs for, you know, human beings to be able to create those images or create those types of animation. So we don't really know what those, you know, those requirements will be down the road too. So as the technology advances, there'll be new ways to combine them, integrate them, and then add human creativity. And then the one thing that will for sure change is what our tastes are.

Well, I think that's on one side, but I think on the other side is people actually, the creators, right? So I'm just going to use a metaphor for our industry. Let's say directors and cinematographers, right? So maybe 20 years ago, you really had to be...

Like, you really had to have hands-on experience on, you know, major productions to become eventually a director. You had to be trained, very highly skilled to be a cinematographer, to be a director, etc., etc., etc.

But now, you know, people just like pick up a phone, pick up a DSLR or whatever, and then they start shooting. And the next thing you know, they create projects that look great. And then next thing you know, they're a director, they're a cinematographer, and they call themselves that. And they may not be as technically trained as other people back in the day. So maybe that can be the same thing in terms of, let's say, post-production animation, where the access and the ability to manipulate and animate people.

that that man can you know like the the entry it becomes like simplified and demystified right yeah like like back in the day like um

Like if you were to like create your own website, like you would have to hire someone to code it. And like you wouldn't, you would have no idea how to do it. But now literally anyone who has like my dad, my 70 year old dad can go online and you know, like subscribe to one of those like sites and just like. Squarespace or something. Yeah, Squarespace and just get a website made with a few clicks of the mouse, right? Yeah. Well, the technology stack is continually being abstracted and we're building layers on top of it. So yeah,

What used to be sort of the cutting edge technology then merely just becomes part of the infrastructure and we keep elevating above. We couldn't, you know, like 20, 30 years ago, we couldn't have our own podcast. Exactly. Because we didn't have the access to distribution, publication, even like the equipment, the editing, like all that stuff. And now that that becomes...

you know, incorporated into a tool, then we can apply our intelligence to, you know, higher level functions. So in a sense, I think the one, the one aspect, like the creativity piece will constantly be at a premium because like the human mind will continually think of new things. And,

But the audience is always changing. That's the thing, right? The technology may or may not change. It probably will change. But the audience's capacity to digest new things will always be evolving, will never be static. So that demand will always be pushing and causing innovation to happen. Yeah, 100%.

I saw on your Instagram, Rich, you do a lot of hand-drawn illustrations too. Yeah, yeah. I've always kind of loved to draw, so that's something I've, you know, it's just kind of like I do it for fun. It's not really something I do in my daily job, and I just kind of... Well, they're fucking amazing. Oh, thanks. Yeah, I saw. I saw. Yeah, it looked really nice. How would you describe your style? Because I remember...

just first seeing some of your illustrations, like, you know, I don't know, 15 years ago when we first met and now seeing them, they've evolved for sure. But I can tell that they're from you. How would you describe the highly muscular style? Yeah. I'm like, you know, I'm a guy that like, like I love comic books, you know what I mean? Like I grew up reading comic books and I think that's how I learned to draw.

was from that. I remember probably the most important book I got was How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way, which was like... I had that book. Yeah, John B. Sumner. It was like you draw these stick figures and then construction things, and so it was like big muscles and stuff like that. That's always kind of been the foundation of what I do. And then I think recently probably one of the most inspiring artists for me is this guy named Kim Jung-ji. He's this Korean artist.

And I've seen him live and he basically will like, he'll take like an ink brush and there'll be like a giant blank canvas and straight from his noggin, like no construction lines, no anything. He draws these intricate lines.

with like fisheye perspective where it's like all kinds of things like flying around and stuff. Just like right out of his head. Like he's got like... Damn. Just like freehand. Freehand. With no guides or anything? No guides. No nothing. No plan. There's no... No sketch first and then... There's no sketch. There's no pre-sketch. And they're like giant murals basically?

He does giant murals. He does these demonstrations. He just does it live, you know? I would love to see. Does he have stuff online? Yeah, yeah. He has an Instagram. What's his name? Kim Jung-ji. It's K-I-M-J-U-N-G. He's L.A.-based? No, I think he's South Korea, like Seoul probably, yeah. But he tours around a lot, you know? Oh, that's him? Yeah. Wow.

That's pretty fucking crazy. Yeah, but he's into the brush pen. And so that's been like a huge... And his whole thing is like, it's kind of like, you know, kind of, you know, touching on, I think, some of your guys' themes of like improvement and like habits and things like that. His whole thing is just kind of like, he's a doodle artist. He doesn't, he's not trying to like, you know, like whatever comes out kind of comes out and he just draws constantly. Yeah.

you know, and I think that's like a really important thing. It was like a lesson for me. Like I can be very perfectionistic, especially when it comes to drawing and I'm like shy to like show it. I'm like, Oh, this is not perfect or whatever. And, and so like,

Just doing something like it's better to draw like 30 circles than one perfect one. Like it's better to just do something more like all the time. Like just do something. Just do something. Yeah. Like the more you do it, like the better you're going to get. Like that's actually how you get better. Not doing something perfectly. It's just doing it like more. You know what I mean? 100% agree. You should listen to our episode. We have an episode about the book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck. Yeah.

I don't know if you read it, but it's very much along those lines in terms of just do something, you know what I mean? And don't worry about like the criticisms or your own kind of like...

internal roadblocks you would put in front of yourself. And just basically doing something is a form of progression. Like anything, just do something. That's better than standing still. And just by the mere fact of doing something, you are progressing and in turn you are succeeding. It's a victory. There are small victories, but you just keep doing something instead of being stagnant.

And that is its own reward. So yeah, you keep feeding back that way. You got to make more mistakes, like make, make the mistakes early and fast and make more, make more of them. And,

I think that's the thing I realized too. Like with animation, like a lot of it is just constantly revising and constantly like looking at things and like, is this working? I don't know. Is this working? And you're always refining and sometimes you go forward a bunch and you're like, oh, this feels good. And then you might realize like, you know what? There's something fundamentally wrong here.

And maybe I have to go back, you know, like several steps and it hurts because you're like, oh, now I have to like change the whole position of where the dragon's landing.

You don't have to erase all this stuff. Has this ever happened to you where you've created something and it's pretty mature in terms of your progress? Let's say it's a character animation. You've done a whole, let's say, I don't know, 10-second animation. The design, everything's already done. And all of a sudden, your file goes corrupt and down the drain and you have to start from scratch again. Oh, all the time. And then does it get better?

Like going back and doing it all over again. Yeah, every time. Right? Every time. Yeah. The thing with doing 3D animation, like I work in this program, Maya, which, you know, nobody loves Maya. Just kind of is. Just kind of like the standard that what people use. And...

You know, there's certain things you can do, like autosave or things like that. Sometimes it's not an option, though. And, like, you could do all this stuff where you add, like, this little overlap on, like, some fingers. And you're like, oh, I got this arc really nice and all this stuff. And then, like, maybe you just, like, click a few things, like, a little too fast. And, like, you see, like, a spinning wheel. And then it's like... You're like, fuck.

For a second, you're in denial and you're like, maybe if I just go take a whiz and I come back, it's going to be fine. And then you get to a point where you're like, this is... It's like two days later, it's still spinning. You're like, this is real. What would Voltron do? And then you're forced to start over. And part of you is like, oh, how am I going to get that back? But actually, almost inevitably, every time you do it again...

Like a lot of the, you've already walked that path and then you do it again. And sometimes, usually it's even better. And you get to that point quicker, right? But you're also improving based off of what you've learned already. Yes. Right? So that goes back to what you're saying. Because like you've already mapped out like a lot of the steps like in the first place. Doing it in the first draft kind of thing. Like I would have to think like with professions like yours and like being like an animator, an illustrator, a filmmaker, right?

These are more artistic endeavors, right? And I think with anything artistic, you're attached, you're much more personally attached to your work than a normal job, I think. That's less artistic, right? That's true. Although, I mean, I think the biggest lesson I learned, you know, moving to LA, working in the industry, working as a commercial artist was like being able to

I mean, you still care about what you're doing, but you kind of have to not be so attached to it because it's not your show. Hmm.

This is someone else. You know, like you're working on a commercial and it's like, you know, it's like something like cat food commercial. And like, you know, I think the cat should jump in like this on the litter pan and take a poop. And then like, you know, the director is like, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is how it is. And you're like, well, it looks stupid. But, you know, hold on. Hold on. Are you telling me the cats in those commercials are also CGI? Are you telling me this? No, do not. Do not shatter my world right now.

Are you serious? No, I was just making like a random... Justin, one day... My entire world view will be shattered. You're going to be CGI on this show. But Rich, you mentioned a couple of things that were interesting to me and kind of, I guess, circling back one or two steps. So Justin mentioned, are you attached to your work a little bit more? Because it's artistic. And...

I almost feel like in a way you can't be to your point because these artistic projects now are so complex. Marvel is the cutting edge of like human technology and innovation. It's not like, you know, 500 years ago where you could carve a piece of marble into what you and shape it. Now it's an enterprise. It's like a, you know, thousands of people coming together. You play that particular role. So you take pride in that piece of what you've done, but,

but at the same time you don't own the entire thing. And so you can't necessarily be as attached, you know, but in a non, let's say in a traditionally non-artistic endeavor, like, I don't know, accounting or tax law or, you know,

Other corporate types of businesses, people do take pride in what they do and they do feel a lot of ownership in whatever it is you do. If you're a sales guy, you might strive to make the perfect sales pitch every time you meet a customer. Or hit in certain numbers. Yeah, exactly. If you're in tax law, you really strive to make the best business decision. So it's interesting that we sometimes try to...

put technology or process on one side and then arts on the other side when the intersection of it really is this attention to detail and taking pride in the ownership of whatever you're creating, whether or not the ultimate output is something for entertainment or

or something that's business oriented. And I think Steve Jobs talked a lot about this, right? Where engineers are actually more creative than you think and artists are much more disciplined than you would imagine. Well, I would consider engineering an artistic venture. It really is, right? Like trying to design, like let's go back to the design of the iPhone, right? That's an artistic endeavor. Do you guys use iPhones? Okay, anyways. Yeah.

No, I use Android. Okay. I like Huawei. I got an Oppo. No, but that to me is an artistic adventure. I mean, that takes a lot of creativity.

and not just the designing of the iPhone. - Problem solving. Problem solving is a form of creativity. - Yeah, agreed. - And anything you do requires problem solving. - So I guess going back to what you were saying, like, yeah, I guess it doesn't really matter if it's an artistic venture or not, because at the end of the day, whatever you're doing, if you take ownership in your work, you're attaching your name to that body of work. - Right. - Right? So even if you're just contributing a small part of the entirety of the whole thing,

your name is attached to that part, right? And will forever be attached to that part. And I think that just goes back to like accountability and ownership, you know, things we've talked about in the past. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I think a big thing too with like commercial art, you know, working with a team and something that's like a really salient sort of thing for our industry is like ego, right?

you know and like your traditional idea of like an artist is like someone who's like you know it's all about me it's about my expression and like like i said you know like with that that sequence i worked on it's like i was just like a really small part of that you know what i mean there was like really good storyboards there's really good direction there's really good models everything was good i just like did my little thing that was a part of it it was good because every everything i

was good. And it's more important to care about kind of like, what is the best for like, like not caring so much like, oh, this is my idea. This is how it should be. I'm good at this. It's more like, what does everyone think? What is the what is the best thing? What does the director want? You know, and I think like, that's something that that's really important, you know?

Yeah, I mean, I think the important thing to remember about film and TV is, yeah, there's a director at the top. There's definitely a hierarchy. And us, we artists, we're artisans. And you have to remember the difference between being an artist and an artisan. So artisans care more about their craft.

So we hone our craft perfectly. We're very proud of the product we make, but we're not artists in which we are imparting our specific vision. We're imparting our craft.

So that's the difference. Well, I never thought about it that way. Yeah. When I saw Kim Jung-ji, that artist I talked about, he and this, I think he's Taiwanese. He's a sculptor named Simon Lee. He does these really cool actual like clay sculptures. And he's worked on like a bunch of films and things like that. And he's unusual because he's a traditional sculptor.

you know, uses traditional media. And someone in the audience at this thing, it was really cool. Like he basically, he was sculpting something and then Kim Jung-ji was drawing it and they were going like back and forth. It was like a, like a jam, they called it. Hmm. Like freestyle. Yeah, it was like, sounds awesome. Yeah, they were like freestyling shit. They drew like this weird, it was like this weird like,

dragon monster and there's these things jumping on it and at the end of it like someone was asking simon a question they're like oh you know like what'd you think about like um because you worked on star trek what did you think about like you know the designs you did for that like i was working on that and he's like he's like honestly he's like the only thing i cared about was getting paid on time he's like you know what i care about is like my own stuff that i do you know what i mean like my work is something different like when i'm getting paid

I'm there to do a job, you know, and I'm there to fulfill, like, a need within this to get it, like, done, you know? And then, like, there's stuff that you do, like, that it doesn't, like, there's no judgment. There's no need to, like, prove anything. It's just, like, you just do it because...

you want to do it. You know what I mean? And like, that's, that's like what my drawings are. Like, I just, I just do that because it like, I enjoy it. You know what I mean? And like, I don't want to hear what anyone, you know, like, am I going to like ask someone like what they think?

about it you know what i mean like i just like this is me this is what i want to do you know but there's a big difference between those things just you even be able to do that though it's is really great because there are a lot of artists out there that may not be able to do that because they maybe i don't know like you know like for example sometimes i would struggle uh working in the

Where I'm trying to like put myself into it, but at the same time I know that I'm serving my role for a client, right? Yes. But like, you know, I'm doing something. I could be like, I don't give a fuck what you think. Like this is what I think. This is what I'm doing, you know, but it doesn't work that way, you know. Of course that's in the commercial way, but then like that also could leak into my own personal stuff because it's like, okay, so if I'm working on something,

you know, myself, then also I'm like, well, is it good? Or is it like, I don't know, like check it out, like read my script, uh, check out my short film. Like, uh, did you get anything out of it? You know what I mean? Because especially for our medium, um, it's not like, Oh, maybe even more for me because like, I can't draw. I'm not, I'm not able to just like do things for myself. Like I need a team of people to create something together. Right. Um,

So I guess it's like, you know, it's this working together, this collaboration that I do care about what other people think, you know. It matters. Yeah. It really matters. Like the thing with animation too, like I remember a teacher told me this. It's like, you know, if you show your grandma...

Like in animation. Like if she says like, I don't get it. What's happening? Then you failed. Like people should, like animation is like about communicating something clearly. It's about people understanding what you're trying to get across, you know? Whereas I think like if you're, yeah, like if you're, you know, like a fine artist or something like that and you're doing like some kind of weird paint, you know, it's like about your interior work.

It's a different thing than like communicating something clearly. It's a really big difference. Yeah, depends on your medium, right? Yeah, exactly. I think you talked a little bit around this notion of this traditional notion of individual ego and genius, like the Beethoven. Someone...

even despite his deafness, was able to create these incredible pieces of music that have survived for hundreds of years. And literally like single-handedly, right? Like this one unique overpowering genius created that. And that's a very significant monument in human history. And at the same time, you have...

i don't know the statue of liberty or you have um you know the great wall you know and and some of the marvel movies where literally the pyramids where the collective genius

of humans came together to produce something that was also monumental. And so you have both. And I think some people, there's some of some individuals that have that interior view and that create great things and then inspire. And at the same time, we build these things that take the collective genius and the collective grit and perseverance of,

hundreds if not thousands of people and there is that constant tension between the two and you know both of them have kind of moved humanity forward um but both of them exist you know and you know i think the interesting thing is like to to see your sort of art evolve and you support some of these larger projects have you thought about um you know

what it would look like if you were to be the kind of the artist in it right i think you can be an artisan and an artist sort of at the same time just at different times but like what does that look like for you have you thought about doing your own films or doing your own animations and then having people support you yeah i guess i've thought about it i mean um

To be honest, sometimes I do get the opportunity to inject myself into what I do. I feel pretty fortunate for that and I enjoy what I do. I think I could definitely see myself kind of

making something on my own like I get ideas for things and stuff like that it is it is hard though because like honestly it's like you know doing this job can be very demanding which seems kind of like counterintuitive because like I'll tell people what I do and like normally they're like their reaction is like oh

You know, that sounds fun. Yeah. They're like, oh. That's a very common. Like, oh, like almost like in a condescending, like, oh, like you, you know, you don't really work. Like, that's fun. Oh, really? You get that kind of reaction? I do. I do. I think people or in a positive way, they're like, oh, that's fun.

But the physical reality of working on a computer 10 hours a day or 8 hours a day, it beats you up. And I see a lot of people get run down by...

Really hard. I mean you're sitting you're clicking on stuff. You're staring at a monitor You're not moving around and it can be stressful. There's a lot of demands on you and so, you know Trying to create balance in your life. It's like when I get home It's like do I want to like work on a short film that I want to animate. It's like no I'm gonna work out

Like I want to... You want to just like be away from any screen. I want to chill. Yeah, I want to chill, you know? Like I have other hobbies. Like I, you know, I... It's tough, yeah. It's tough, you know? Is something like carpal tunnel syndrome a common thing that occurs in your field? Hell yeah. Yeah. A lot of people... I remember actually I had like a sports injury a while back and I went to like a physical...

therapist's office and they say like a lot of the patients they get are people that do computer work and I had like one friend in particular who's I mean this is a whole other this guy's a funny guy he's a Mormon who's lived in China and he's like the only person I'd practice with

mandarin with for many years but this guy's a concept artist and um he developed this problem in his arm i think it was carpal tunnel or it was some like nerve major major nerve in his arm he would rest his elbow on on the edge of a table when he was drawing and it fucked that nerve up and uh

he literally would lose ability to like move his hand. And I remember he told me this story one time he's going over to like the Warner Brothers lot or something like, yeah, come by, like do some sketches. We want to see how you work. And he was driving me over. And as he was driving over his hand, like froze up, like he couldn't move his, you know, a lot of people like get like, they wear all kinds of like,

guards and things like that. I bought a standing desk because I remember I had like one month. It was actually right when I really started getting busy and I was like, you know, working a lot more. And there's like a month where I worked seven days a week for the whole month. And then I was commuting from like the eastern side of LA to the western side. And so I was driving like over an hour each way. So I was like sitting for probably like

13 hours a day or something like that. And I developed this like really bad, like lower back problem. So there's a lot of things, you know,

Like that, that you kind of... So do you have to constantly tell yourself to take breaks and get up and move around? Is that... Yeah, so I have a standing desk. I have a mat. And then I try to just... I'll just walk outside and go somewhere, get a coffee or just take breaks. Some people don't, though. Well, you know, it's actually interesting. There was a time when I was editing...

And for long hours. And I actually downloaded something called, it's a Pomodoro technique. Do you know that? Yeah. Yeah. So basically what it is, it's like an app that I downloaded that the Pomodoro technique is basically it's like it start off with like 30 to 45 minutes of pure work. And then it'll click like ding. And then you have to get up for five minutes.

And then just remind you, like get up five minutes. And then I go back down and then it's like another 30 minutes and then five minutes again, ding. And then next thing you know, it's 15 minutes, ding. So basically it times it out for a whole day to make you productive and make sure that you're constantly moving and stretching. I'm constantly ignoring my Apple Watch. It tells me to get up and walk around every hour and I'm like...

Fuck off. This is the only thing I get ever.

oh is it it's like breathe no i'm not breathing claudia let me ask you though why is that is it just because you want to get get your shit done or is it like or like what what is it that makes you tell it to fuck off i think i i mean there's there's different kinds of of workers and you know one isn't more productive than the other i just happen to be the kind who likes to sit and finish things as fast as possible but um

But I've also learned the lesson that work begets more work if you work in that fashion. So it's, yeah, it's, I developed some pretty bad back problems and like neck problems. I also wear like stuff, you know, gear when I work. So it's not, not recommended. Yeah. Actually, I do have a question now, now that I'm thinking about it with your profession.

I mean, do you ever get hit up by certain projects where the time, the timeline, the delivery date is just so ridiculous? So you literally have to do all-nighters to get it out. I mean, do you get those kind of projects? I try not to.

yeah like i'm trying to say like how do you deal with that you start off accepting them and you learn very quickly that you don't have to that there's enough work out there especially in los angeles where you can you know the studios to avoid like i know of a studio where like literally a guy died working too late he actually died yeah like working too that happens a lot in china actually i can believe that and the news i mean it it's in the in the film industry

I mean, I don't know if you guys know this, but especially for production designers. So every year, a few production designers die on set because they're working nonstop.

Is that due to the culture of the studios, the demands, or is that on an individual basis? I think it really comes down to the studios and the way they're run, you know, because it doesn't have to be like that. A lot of studios, a lot of, like, producers, they have a hard time standing up to...

clients and they don't have the wherewithal or the whatever to kind of like say like that's not you know that's not doable or this is how long it's going to take you know what i mean and um i think it's like a systemic problem maybe it's gotten a little better but it got really bad as far as like visual effects where it's like a race to the bottom where they like

They try to underbid out, underbid other studios like, you know, even this even a studio I work for recently, I learned they would they would do like previs. They'd say like, hey, if we do pre we'll give you previs for free if you do if you choose us to do the final shots.

Things like that. You know what I mean? Like it's very competitive and like... Yeah. I think that a huge problem too with it is that there are people at the top who are not business savvy, who don't understand kind of like the rudiments of business that are making these decisions. And you really get backed into...

a corner you know what i mean and and it and uh you know rolls downhill yeah it rolls down this and like people get thrown under the bus and like artists yeah like some people yeah i mean i've i've been in situations where i've definitely like i remember one studio it was i i went there in the morning and i worked till like 5 00 a.m and then i came in the next day and i remember just like i'm charging you for two days like i was here two days

Those two work days full time. Just straight, that's it. Yeah, straight. And some people are shy about it too, you know, about like asking for like... Well, I think it's maybe not even shy, it's insecurity. Because maybe they feel like, well, if I say something, then they're just going to hire somebody else. Yeah, they feel like they're replaceable because the competition is so fierce. Yes, that's a huge problem. People are afraid to...

Ask for a good day rate or good money and afraid to say, hey, I want overtime or things like that. Yeah, a lot of people...

Especially in the US, I think it's taboo to talk about money and especially for artists. So like whenever I go to a studio, like a new studio where there's new people, I'm like, hey, what are you making? What are you making? And some people will be really shy about saying it. So I'll just be like, I make X amount for this number of hours, like FYI. So if you're not making that, you need to sort that. Yeah.

Yeah, it is like taboo, right? It's like, it's almost like asking someone like, oh, who are you voting for? It's like, it's like this taboo subject like no one can talk about. It's tacky, yeah, it's tacky. But you know, that's how you, that's how you collude. That's a little different here in China, though.

China here, I think it's more practical. People just have a more practical mindset. So like how much you're getting paid and what rates you're charging for this is all part of the job. It's all part of, they know it's like, this is what you consider when you're making your decisions. It's very transparent here. I always remember people asking how much money I made point blank. And you're like, wait, what? It's like,

Excuse me? It's like, how dare you? Yes, exactly. So direct. But I think going back to what we were just talking about, I think a lot of it is this innate need for a lot of people to want to please and come through for their clients, like quote unquote come through. So they feel like they have to bend over backwards to meet every demand, no matter how unrealistic some of the demands might be. And they just want to do it.

Like I know this from, you know, I was in the apparel manufacturing business for a while.

So in any sort of position where you're kind of like an agent in the middle, you don't have overall authority because you're not the client. But you're not the bottom guy because you're not the factory either. So you're the agent kind of in between. That's what I was doing. You're stuck in the middle. And you have clients asking. We worked for stores like Walmart, Costco, the biggest wholesalers in the States, right?

And because they are so big, they are so powerful and they are buying so many things. They have a lot of power. Right. And they know that. And they are not shy at all to use that power and use that leverage over you when it comes to cost cutting, when it comes to manufacturing, comes to deadlines, quality control, all these things they put, they throw their entire weight on you.

And you have to come through. Otherwise, they pull the order. You're stuck with a huge debt, liabilities, all these things. So then it creates this culture of like, it becomes like people are like working crazy hours doing the impossible thing.

Just to try to make ends meet. And the kind of routine and repetition of that definitely takes its toll. And that comes with any power of like when there's a big, when there's entity of like high leverage, high power, like a studio, right? Like a network where that's a big, a big retailer, like, you know, Walmart, right? And you have a bunch of people in different companies in between trying to fulfill certain roles in that pipeline. Yeah.

all that weight, like you said, shit rolls downhill, right? Like all that weight comes down and everyone under them in that totem pole feels the weight of that. Yeah. And it's interesting, like the product, the product changes every film, every,

or every commercial is different. So it's not like a corporation where, you know, I'm producing certain technology products or I'm producing certain industrial gear. So I have a relatively fixed workforce and an organizational structure and pay structure because I need this person to be able to contribute for me for every quarter, every year. And, you know, Justin, you mentioned the studios being these like these massive sort of

you know, very powerful entities. And so they have to basically create like a, almost like a company's worth of people to produce something. But then for every film, it's going to be like a different organizational structure. So it's always kind of evolving and there's not consistency. So I guess that's like, I don't know much about the entertainment industry, but I suppose that's why you need to have like unions and you need to have certain collectives to be able to protect the rights of these things that are quickly formed and then quickly dissipated.

To balance the power, I guess. I mean, it's all about leverage. At the end of the day, no matter what industry you're in, no matter what dynamic you're involved in, it's all about leverage, right? Everyone's going to use leverage to their own advantage. Is there a group of, I guess, like people who work in the animation industry where they kind of band together or collude, as you would say? Yeah, I mean, I think there's definitely like unions and there's like guilds, things like that.

Yeah, but wasn't there like last year a huge, or maybe even this year, early this year, a huge backlash from animators from the video game industry where they kind of

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the thing that's funny is when I started in the industry, a lot of people said, you know, like if you want like a more stable sort of path, you know, like choose video games because the cycle is longer. Like there's nothing more complex than making a video game. Like there's so much that goes into it because it's interactive, because it's three dimensional. It's not like a film where it's like,

Oh, behind here is like cardboard and we're only filming this here, not over there. You know, it's like you see everything and everything has to like work. And you have to literally create a world, a universe. You're literally creating it and it's interactive and like all this shit. And then there's like story and blah, blah, blah. So anyway, like that's what people told me. But like I think that video games seems like the worst. They said it's so unhealthy. It's so unhealthy. Why did they say that?

I think that, yeah, like the perception was that it was a more stable career and that it was a healthy industry. But I don't, as an animator, I mean, like it's not like the pay is lower. A lot of these studios, it's kind of, it's the same thing with like films where it's this tentpole sort of like ideology or business model where it's like we put everything into this giant thing. And if it's not a hit, if it's not an unequivocal hit, then it, then...

You know, it's a failure. And people, like, studios shut down all the time. And because you've been at a place for a long time, you're not plugged into anything else. And so then you're, like, left high and dry. And the pay is lower on top of it. So actually, like, for us, it's like, I love being a freelancer. Like, I would never want to be full-time somewhere. Never. Like, I've gotten, like, offers. Like, hey, you want to, like, be full-time here? And I'm like...

No, I really don't. Because you have more freedom as a freelancer. You have more freedom. I think you end up making more money. If you keep busy as a freelancer, you're making more. You're making more than if you're full time, at least as an artist. I think like in certain regards, like if you're like higher level, like you have some sort of like managing aspect,

or you're like a lead or something like that and you get hired full time, you could probably make the same or a little more. But in a lot of situations, it's like, you know, if you worked at like Disney or DreamWorks and you're like a lead animator, they make what I make.

Only they have more responsibility. Do you know what I mean? It's because they have... Okay, so your pay is going to be lower in-house because of stability. I mean, you're guaranteed a certain salary and that's it, right? Lower salary compared to freelance because per hour...

As a freelancer you're definitely gonna make more because it's not you're not guaranteed. You know what I mean? Sure Yeah, so I mean in any industry in entertainment industry as a freelancer whether you're freelance animated director or whatever You're gonna get paid more than in-house But the thing is like for example in California to work at will state which means you could get laid off from your full-time job for any reason anyway, really it's very illusory this whole notion of stability and

And again, like he said, studios close down all the time. So you are actually a better artist if you're freelance most of the time. Because when you're in a full-time job, you know, sometimes you come in, you're hungover, you kind of like phone it in and you're just like on Facebook all day. You never do that when you're freelance. Every day is your first day of school. Wow.

Yeah, I think like my favorite analogy for being a freelancer versus being full time, it's kind of like, it's like dating versus being in a relationship. You know, like when you're a freelancer, like you're always, you have to be on your best behavior, like your game has to be tight.

Yeah. Like you have to stay in shape. You're like, you're like Pete. You're like, you're like fighting weight, you know, like you're like, yeah, you're manscape. Your balls are like, they're fucking immaculate. Like you're, you're, you're ready to go. Smooth like eggs. Smooth like eggs. Yeah. You're, you're ready for action. Keep a condom in your wallet. Tic Tacs.

Yeah, no, you have something to prove. And like bringing a freelancer in, like the expectation is like, you're going to kill it. Like we're paying you good money. Like you better bring it. Like you better crush this. You know, it's not like, you know. But, you know, I think both have their advantages, disadvantages. I mean, I think the thing like as far as being a freelancer that like is not the best is like it does feel like you're always proving yourself.

You know what I mean? And there's no sense of like climbing, you know, where it's like, you know, you did such a good job on this. Like we really noticed that. Like we want you to like. Yeah. Actually, this last job I had, the guy, I actually met him when I first went to school after leaving Shanghai. And I didn't, I never took any of his classes or anything like that, but I knew the guy and he was my supervisor in this job. And they brought me in.

I actually got hired through this agency and I was working for this company on this short film and he came up to me afterwards and he's like, you know, like we really appreciate what you did here. Like you really inspired a lot of the younger animators and like all this stuff. And he said all these things that it was just like, it was like so nice to hear something like that.

You never really get that being a freelancer. You're like a mercenary. Yeah, exactly. It's like wham, bam, thank you, ma'am. You know what I mean? It's like a one-night stand over and over again. Yeah, it's like a one-night stand. It's like when you wake up, you leave. You don't cuddle in the morning. It's not the worst position to be in, though. It's not the worst position to be in. It's like a hot one-night stand. It's like Taye Diggs. But do you have a rating system? How do they...

is it word of mouth? Like, how do they know? Well, like what you're saying right now is what I wanted to bring up because I think it could be dangerous if you just, cause we're talking about freelancers as if it's like this, the way to go. Right. But it's actually not for everybody. Right. No, no, it isn't. That's the thing. No, it isn't. No, it really isn't. And I think, like I said, you know, like I, I'm not, I'm not trying to say like, you know, it's not for, it's not for everybody. And some people have like,

a really good setup being full-time. Like I have a friend, I hadn't seen him in like four years or something like that. He had like a kid, like I didn't see him in a while. He's an editor. He does like film trailers and he works at like the biggest film trailer house in LA. He's like full-time there. And he makes more money than when he was freelance, you know? And he does, that's what he wants to do. He cuts film trailers. He does it all the time. And he has a family. So it's like-

Why would he want to like, you know, like it just doesn't make sense for him to be freelance. I believe being a freelancer, you need to have a certain type of skill set, let alone ability. Like your actual technical or creative ability needs to be at a certain level in order to keep this freelance status. Right. Because if you're not that good, no one's going to hire you. Well, in Los Angeles, everyone's good.

I mean, everyone is good. So the thing that you bring as a freelancer is a soft skill. You know, if you're like have a little, you know, away with people. Social skills. Clients or like a really loud laugh. Yeah.

Yeah, I think, you know, yeah, that's the thing too is like you're selling yourself a little bit, you know, like because like a lot of people can do the job and a really important thing is being easy to work with and like fun to work with because, you know, otherwise, because yeah, like, you know, if someone is absolutely amazing and they're a total dick to work with,

And I got someone that's like really good, but like maybe not like amazing and awesome to work with. Guess who I'm picking? Like I'd rather work with someone that like takes criticism well, you know, makes a joke when things are rough, you know, like someone like that, you know, it's like because it is a team effort. Yeah. I would have to believe that in your job.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a big part of it is not only just the technical know-how and skill, but like you said, it's that human-to-human communication. I'm sure communication is a huge part of what you do because they have to communicate the ideas to you. They have to communicate what they want, right? And you have to communicate back. Yeah. So it's a lot of personal interaction. It's really, really critical. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's, it's, and actually it's something like, I always considered myself a good communicator, but I think like, I've actually had to kind of pay a lot more attention to that and, you know, put more effort into like set, like setting expectations with people like, Hey, you know, like what, when did you want to see this? And like, how far along, you know, did you want this to be?

And like, you know, is this what you had in mind? You know, like a lot of little things like that, like constantly, you know, being on. I've always said this and how you can you can testify to this. Like whenever I work with people, right, in any sort of capacity, but especially like in a business capacity, whatever, being on the same page with your partners in terms of expectations makes all the difference.

Because that is the thing that's going to carry you through when shit hits the fan, when you come across rough patches and over the long term is knowing that you set off with the same expectations in mind as to what the final goals are. Like where that end result is going to land. And if you have the same expectations, that will carry you through a lot of challenges. The problems arise is when you start on a venture or the new project with someone or even a business with someone.

And in the beginning, everyone's optimistic. Everyone's excited. Things are good. Things are on the up and up, right? Blue sky. Exactly. So everyone's happy and you're communicating and you think you're all on the same page, blah, blah, blah. But there are these little differences in terms of you find out later as the relationship grows, as the project grows, you find out, oh, you were expecting that? Oh, no, I saw it as this. And maybe in the beginning, they're kind of like trivial things that you can kind of just brush off.

But as the stakes get higher and higher, and as the challenges get harder and harder, those differences accumulate, and they can become the breaking point in terms of any healthy relationship that you have. Are those differences in expectations? So I love what you said about expectations. I think I've always valued that as having clear communication of expectations from the get-go.

of where we're going, where we're heading, what we all expect. And the expectations change over time. And it's an opportunity to...

To realign and recalibrate. Exactly. Because the project, the direction, everything is always evolving. And it's easy to... You could start off on the same page and it's easy to get to a point where you grow apart. And then all of a sudden one day you wake up and you're like, wait a minute. And that's when the disagreements sort of happen. So you actually have to kind of constantly check in. Exactly. But that brings great ideas. And I think it's a humble attitude, which it might be difficult. I don't know. Like in this...

in this animation industry, people are like really good. It's easy probably to have a little bit of an ego and stuff like that. But like, you know, I think as a freelancer, you have to be really humble because you're going in, you know, scratch like to every job and you have to reset those expectations of what's happening. Cause it's a new client and you have to ask these really rudimentary questions. You might think I've already done a fucking thousand projects, but I actually have to go in and be like, Hey, like, what are you expecting? When do you want these things?

So I think the humility is really probably something that, you know, that you have to be good at. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Like I said, I mean, because like, yeah, people, people with egos. Yeah. It's like, you know, it just, it just doesn't fly. Like most people are really cool in the industry. Really cool. Like really nice people. Everyone's talented. But like, yeah, there's always some like,

There's always some bad apples, you know? Some diva? Well, there's... You know, when someone's a jerk, it just... You know, it makes it bad for everybody. Like, you know, I don't want to name any names. I worked on that Fast and Furious movie, and that was, like, one of the worst experiences...

I've ever had. Like it was because this it was the supervisor. Like if you look at organizations, like if you look at like the top that really influences the whole atmosphere, it informs everything all the way down, how people perceive everything, how things act, how how everything works. And this guy was just like he was just kind of a jerk. He was if you talk to him.

One-on-one he was he was a cool guy like he liked to surf he's from like London he moved there And he's like yeah, I like surfing blah blah blah yeah, that's called it You know he was like he was cool But then like working he'd show up late to work and we'd have like nothing to do all week like we'd be sitting around like working like looking at each other like What's you know what's going on here? And then Friday would come and he'd be like alright guys like

we might have to work this weekend, you know? And he literally would, like, point at everyone. He's like, you. He's like, you know, like, can you? It's like, people would be all, like, embarrassed. Like, I can't work this weekend. He's like, you. He's like, I'm busy, you know? And it's like, you make me, you know? It was like... It was like an interrogation. Yeah, it was like an interrogation. It was like, we've been sitting here all week. Yeah, we could have been doing this. Like, I'm ready to work. Like, I came here to work, you know? And...

you know, it's, yeah, at the end of the day, I think the way you treat people, like the example you set, all, all of these things, you know, matter a lot, you know, and, and, uh,

If you're a jerk, like word gets around the campfire, my friend. It's not a big industry. And that goes back to what Eric was saying about freelancers. They're a rating system. No, but there's word of mouth. There's a word of mouth. It's not just about your portfolio. It's what people say about you. Well, I think a lot of people also get, I don't want to say spoiled, but it's not spoiled. It's like they get entitled. Entitled.

It's not even a title, but they learn early on because they see all these truly great artists and designers and these people who are at the top of their field. And notoriously, we hear all these stories. A lot of them are divas, have huge egos, might be not the best personality types, but they're so good at what they do, you put up with it because there's a demand behind what they do. And then so you have all these other people coming up.

who are nowhere near the class and quality and talent of these people, but they have the same kind of

Attitudes and egos and they feel like they have to be this diva or they have to be this asshole and they they feel like they have to fit a certain archetype right to like to be that person right because they see like their role models like like that and then and but the so the The most annoying thing is when a person doesn't have that talent or doesn't have those skills but they still have like those problematic attitudes or

and they're a diva and they have these huge egos, that's when it's just like... Fortunately, there's so many artists in LA that it is kind of a perfect marketplace and the market sorts out those fools. Exactly. That's great. Except for, what's his name? Hauser? Oh, that fucking bipolar guy? There's literally a guy... Who's bipolar? There's literally a guy who, I think he got blackballed so many times, he changed his name.

Wow. He changed his name to some weird, like, Hauser. Why? Why was he so bad? He's like Howie Lamb. It's Howie all along. I don't know him. I don't know. Like, you better tell this story. Yeah, no, I mean, he's just one of those guys who...

He might have fetal alcohol syndrome or he smoked too much weed so he doesn't get enough deep sleep. But there's something wrong with his – there's something actually chemically wrong with his brain. And he'll just lash out and yell at people. I had a really terrible experience with him a while ago. And then I realized that everyone who's worked with him has had this experience. And, yeah, I think there's just something – there's something chemically wrong. Is he talented?

No, I had to open one of his files. And you know, like in the horror flick, when you go to the regular guy's house and then you open the closet door and there's just like, you know, blood and like strings and paint. Like that was what it was like looking at his file. Wow. Yeah. Interesting. But then you saw him again and he gave you a big hug. He's like, Claudia. And you're like...

His name was Hauser. Suddenly his name was Hauser. Hey. Oh, yeah. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Different name, different person. It's one of his four split personalities. Hi, my name is... Oh, my name's Alza. My name is Simon. My name's Simon. You're like, I just had coffee with you yesterday. You were not called Alza, you were called John. Your name was John. I just poured a bucket of blood on my head yesterday, don't you remember? What the fuck are you talking about, man?

So is it as a freelancer in your field, is it common to get repeat customers, clients? Oh, for sure. Yeah, you definitely build relationships. And, you know, there's certain studios you just like working with, you know, obviously.

So going back to that Instagram post where you were working on the Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2. Yeah. I think it was that post. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were saying that was one of the most, like the funnest projects you had been on or something like that. It was pretty fun, yeah. What was so fun about it? Something that was fun about it was we were working on the Disney lot. So being there itself was cool. We were working in an old, it was an animation building.

From, like, the 30s or something. It was, like, a Disney animation building, you know? So it was, like, it was cool being there. And then, like, the Marvel office itself. So the experience, the whole experience was just... Yeah, it was cool. They had, like, there was, like, a Star Wars... They were showing, like, one of... Like, the last Star Wars movie they came... You know, there was just a lot of, like, cool things about... I mean, it's, you know, it's cool being on, like, a movie lot, you know? And, like, having the full kind of Hollywood thing, you know? It's fun. It's fun. And then, like...

Honestly, mostly what I do is character animation, and I do previs some of the time. It's a slightly different skill set. And then with that team, they were all the cream of the crop previs artists. It was kind of like they picked the best- It was an all-star team. They picked an all-star team, and I didn't always do that stuff, and they brought me in. So I was like, I was in the all-star team for a second. So it was cool to work with those guys on this thing, and then-

uh james like they he wasn't there physically but he would like look at all the stuff and james gunn the director you know he would like comment on things and stuff so i mean it you know it was that's cool it was really cool yeah it was it was it was fun i definitely like i i work i work myself mostly in commercials and then like sometimes i work in films you know what i mean and it's it's it's nice to like work on stuff like films where people like

care about it and pay attention to it and watch it. Working for commercials, the studios, they got better snacks.

They got better bathrooms with moisturizers in it and things like that. You know what I mean? It's nice, but it's cool to work on stuff like that now and then. Where there's a legacy to it. There's a culture behind it. Something like Star Wars, right? There's a whole culture behind it. Yeah. You're contributing to this culture and this thing. I think it builds your...

cachet a little bit you know like if you think about like a video game where you do different like quests or things like that and you build different like levels I think that builds like your reputation a little more you know what I mean like it's it's a good experience so tell us when you like when you do do like a really cool film and it

comes out and you're watching it with Claudia or some of your friends, do you pause the scenes that you've worked on? Like how many times do you pause and like how many times you make them watch it? Like see that animation that was made over and over? No, I've pointed it out a few times, but like, I don't subject people to it. So I have a follow-up question back to the whole freelance thing. So,

We were talking about the pluses and minuses of being a freelancer and for the listeners out there that are freelancers or are considering becoming freelancers. I mean, from your experience so far, what would be some, I don't know, anecdotes or recommendations or suggestions or tips that you can give?

Yeah, I mean, I think in my personal experience, like being a freelancer was not something I chose to do. You know, when I was when I was here in Shanghai, you know, like I didn't really have a career. Like I came here, I was like teaching English. I did like real estate for a year. I was like doing like random like video production things, like doing some like kind of corporate stuff.

English teaching stuff. And so when I moved to LA, what I wanted was a stable career. I wanted like a full-time job. And so I kind of fell into being freelance. And honestly, like the beginning is always going to be hard and you're going to doubt yourself and you're going to want to quit because like,

you know, people don't know you. You're not in the, you're not in the, in the circle. You're not in the circle. You're not, you're not on, you're not in the ring yet. You know, like people, you're not, you're not circulating. And so I think like, it's just kind of, it's just kind of hard. You know, I think if, if, if you have the opportunity to like, uh, build your skills a lot first, you know, whatever, in whatever form that may be, whether it's like, you know, you have time to kind of,

take time off working and like spend a lot of time and create like a good portfolio or things like that. Or if you do have like a full-time job first and you build enough where you feel like, okay, you know, like I have a little stability, I have a little something and I can take a risk now.

Either of those situations, like when you're if and when you're ready to like make that jump, just be prepared for the fact that like it's not going to be easy at first. Your door's not going to be getting knocked on like every minute. Yeah. It just gets easier and easier.

Another thing to remember is never view yourself as a competitor. Always view yourself as part of a community and a collaborator. That's a great one. Yeah. Always work with other, if you're a freelance artist, work with other artists. They always have something to teach you. You may have something to teach them.

and word gets around. That's a great one. It's a small community, you know, that'll come, they'll recommend you, you'll recommend them, and that's how you get in. That's a great one. I mean, I would like to add on to that because... I got some nuggets. Yeah, that was a good nugget. That was a chicken McNugget. Lots of nugs.

So I would like to add on to that because, I mean, as a freelancer, you get booked times, right? So like, okay, my time slot for, I don't know, the second half of December is booked for this project, right? You get a phone call. Hey, you know, I need you to do this. I'm sorry, my timing's booked, but I can recommend my friend. My friend does the exact same thing. He's really great and whatever, right? And you can recommend. That friend's like, thank you. That was amazing, you know? Yeah.

Two months later, that friend's going to throw you a job right back at you. You know what I mean? So you always got to think of other people, not as competitors, right? Just like you said, you never know. It's like paying it forward almost, you know, in a freelance way. There's enough work to go around. Yeah. Yeah. That gets back to the insecurity thing. And sometimes people, like even myself, like sometimes I think in the past I was like, oh, my friend's really good. What if I recommend him? And then...

They're like in bed or something. That's not a good way to think about it. It really isn't. You know what I mean? Because there is more than enough work. And it really is true that when you help people out, they want to help you out. Like I've invariably experienced that. I think it's true. And yeah, it's just about building that kind of like network.

that community. I think in whatever you do, whatever profession it is, it's like probably the most important thing aside from being competent in what you do. Yes. And I think that's a great, actually it's like a, like a life lesson actually. I mean, it works in every way, not just your profession. It's just life. Well, I want to go back to something about this that you kind of just blew past in the beginning is that because we're talking about like, see yourself as part of the community and as a competitor and,

But like what you were saying is like, you know, when during your time in Shanghai, you know, you were kind of like you were kind of did a lot of different things. And then when you moved to L.A., that's when you really wanted to like have like a stable career path and find what you want to do. So eventually you got into animation and, you know, now you're doing it and now you're successful in it. And but before you were kind of this outsider and you didn't know and there was a lot of doubts and hesitation there.

So I think that's very personally meaningful to me. And I want to hear you kind of explain it or describe that moment or that period in your life a little more in terms of for people who are looking for a new career path,

later in life than traditionally. A lot of people, maybe they graduate university and they kind of already know what they want to do and they've been studying it and they go into a job that's in that field and they work their way up all their life. I envy that. But then there are a lot of people who are not as clear in the beginning and don't really have a clear career path until maybe their mid-30s or whatever. A little later than typical.

And they're trying to find that career path. And it's really daunting at that stage in our life to kind of dive into a whole industry that you're not a part of, that you don't necessarily have any skills in, that you don't necessarily have any connections in, and you just don't know, but you're interested in it. And it's something that interests you and you want to do it,

So it's really scary just to dive in, right? Especially at a slightly later age. So how did you make that decision? How was that experience like for you? And what would you tell somebody now who might be going through that same kind of process in their life?

Yeah, I think for me, you know, since I was young, like I kind of always wanted to be an artist to do something like animation or art or whatever. The thing, the big problem for me was that there was never a clear path or like a sense that you could be successful at this. And it wasn't something that my parents encouraged me to do.

in a sense you know what i mean they're kind of like yeah you know well you got to make money and like and i didn't really see like an like a like a way for me to do that i ended up going to um i went to penn state before i transferred to upenn and i was in like a an art program there and i just like it just wasn't the same as being at like uh

In art school, and what I really wanted to do was something like creative art, like entertainment. You know what I mean? That was so far away. And so, like, it just didn't really seem like a good option. And so, I kind of, like, fell into being into China. You know what I mean? Like, it just, it was almost like a way to put off, like, being something. Because I was good, like, I was really good at French when I was young. Like, I didn't even have to, like, study that much. And I would get A pluses on all my tests. Yeah.

And I remember I took the first summer I was in college, there was like a choice to go to like Italy or China. And in high school, I'd been to like Italy before and I'd been to Europe. I did these like little travel abroad things. And so like I went to China and I kind of was like pretty good at like Chinese, like from the beginning. And like I remember like a teacher like coming up to me, oh, you're like you have some ability for this. Like you should think about language.

Like, you're good at language. Like, you should think about learning... And you like the hoes, too. Not gonna lie. Yeah. Not gonna lie. Not gonna lie. Yeah. She's cool. Yeah, she's cool. So, yeah, so...

A multitude of factors. Yeah, so I found myself here. Yeah, and like, you know, it was like a... It was a good place to be in my 20s. You know what I mean? And it was like, you know. Hell yeah, we know. Yeah, you know how it is here. But yeah, like I literally woke up one day at the end of this. It's like just like one, you know, drunken night after another. Like I think the very like...

Low point like the end of my time here. There was one night where I got so drunk I woke up I literally was walking on the street the next morning at 11:30 a.m. And I came to Walking on the street and I looked at my hands and I had like no idea how I got there And I and I called Eric

And my wallet was gone. I called Eric. I'm like, dog, I'm fucked up. I don't have any money. You got to come help me. And he showed up and he gave me a few hundred kuai. And I wanted to give him a bro hug or something. And I had some vomit on my shoulder. And he's like, go take a shower. He didn't want to touch me.

I had a serious conversation with myself at that point. I'm like, you know, like this... That was kind of like rock bottom for you. That was rock bottom. Like, it just, you know, it's cool. You know when you watch like the behind the musics where it's like Motley Crue, they're like, yeah, you know, they're like partying. They romanticize the whole thing. Yeah, it gets romanticized and it's cool. And then like something bad happens and then like it brings them down to reality. It's like...

This is like... You get to a certain point, right? You get to a certain point, you're like, enough's enough. Yeah. So, you hear people like blacking out and like blacking out somewhere on their bed, whatever, right? Yeah.

So he blacked out while he was walking and then after a couple hours, he came back too. And it's like noon. And he literally, he woke up and he was still walking. So when I saw him, he was like, he had blacked out again after he talked to me and he was literally walking. So he was not exactly in the same place that he told me and he was like walking. And I was like, how the fuck...

Do you maintain... Like, he was in good shape. You know, he worked out a lot. But he literally blacked out while he was walking and then came to and he's like, why am I walking? Yeah. Yeah, so...

You know, that story's a good illustration. But I literally, you know, like, I was so gung-ho about being in China. Like, I was, like, trying to, like, I started, like, shooting videos and editing videos. Like, I knew a couple guys. They actually got hired by Ticketmaster, but they had their own thing. I think it was called Emma Entertainment. For a while, they brought, like, big acts to Shanghai. And I think when they started working for Ticketmaster, we did, like, we shot, like, a Linkin Park thing.

concert video we did like Celine Dion like we did all these things and it was so at that point you were already in the kind of like the video I was like I just I made a decision like I want to start doing creative like I want to do like

So you just started from scratch and you were... Yeah, well, I didn't have anything to lose. At all costs, I just want to get in. Yeah, I started doing that stuff here. But like, I think, you know, the story that I mentioned previously and a lot of things, like I just kind of came to a point where I literally woke up one day and I said, like, I got to get out of here. Like, I just felt like I can't really, I don't really see like a path for myself anymore.

Because I think the people in my mind that came here and were successful, they kind of had a background or they had a career previously that they parlayed into doing something worthwhile here.

here whereas me i kind of like came here and it was like i think for a lot of people they may have just spent maybe like a year or two here but like i just kind of like went a little longer for me and it was like i kind of woke up at the end of it i'm like i i feel like i need to take a like take a step back from this and kind of like go back to square one

And, and like start over, like create, like create like a career from, from scratch. I remember some of these moments. I actually pretty vividly. So we all knew like Rich is a super talented, creative person. We knew his love, his,

of just the creative things and the visual arts. Like we saw some of the work that he did. So we always knew that this was the path. And I remember talking to you and like you were trying to figure things out. And at that point, the industry in China was not like everything else, right? Like what we were talking about, like imagine that the streets were different back then, but also this whole creative industry was really different. And I remember you telling me that, you know, it's just,

just sort of like the level of professionalism and a lot of things weren't really quite there. And I think it took a lot of courage because I remember I was like super sad, like, you know, Richard and I were like super close and I couldn't totally understand why he was making this decision because it was like, okay, so you're going to go back like to square one, you're going to start all over. And like that just took a huge amount of courage because you could keep putting it off.

And like he had to literally go back. I remember you went back to the animation school. So like he had to go back to like elementary school essentially, right? To pick up this craft. And he just picked up and he made the decision. He was in town for a couple more months. We had the farewell. And it was like the clarity of his decision was,

was just something like really, you know, looking back, it was very bold. But that's so important. Yeah. Right? Because I think it was the last, another episode where it was mentioned, I think you said or somebody said it, where it's like, you can always think about the result, right? Like, okay, I want to be a superstar. I want to be a filmmaker. I want to be an entrepreneur and be rich, right? You always think about the end result, but then,

You have to put in the effort, right? You have to make the decision to put in the effort. I want to be slim. I want to be, I want to have a six pack, right? I mean, it's glorious to think about that, right? But then unless you make that decision to get that, right? And no matter what, which could mean starting from square one. And you don't lie to yourself. Yeah. And you fucking do it. Yeah.

That's the biggest thing. And I almost think like he didn't have these grandiose dreams. Like he went back and because this was something that he was so passionate about, he was like, okay, I'm going to start from square one, but I'm going to enjoy it. He didn't see the school as an obstacle. He didn't see it as a barrier. He actually saw it as something to enjoy. And then I remember like we kept in touch, right? Like we would...

or whatever. And, you know, like he was getting into it. And I remember he was like, he was going to the school and I was like, wow, this is really interesting. Cause like, I see him transforming as a person too. It's happening.

And then I think about, I don't know, what was it like maybe eight years ago I was in LA and you kind of had already gotten into it. Right. And then I saw you about three or four years ago and then now you're back in China. So it's, it's interesting. I do have a question now that you're kind of established. Um, and what do you, how do you see the industry here in China? And would you ever consider taking on work out here? Yeah, I would, you know, I mean, um, I think it's, it's definitely, it's definitely grown, you know, but, uh,

you know at the same time like LA's pretty nice LA's pretty nice I have to say like I really like um I think the thing that I like the things I miss about Shanghai for sure are like um I really miss no I don't not anymore I got a nice one I got a nice one that's for a different reason

I got a nice one now. I got a smart hoe now. No, Rich, that's for a different podcast. We have another, we have like a double header perhaps, but we're going to get Claudia on to hear the other side of the story. The better half.

Yeah, you know, there's so much I miss. Like, I really miss... Like, I was telling Claudia, like, speaking Chinese for me and, like, interacting with Chinese people, it's like, it really is, like...

a wonderful thing like we were we were in lijiang at one point we're at this restaurant we went there like two or three times and this chef came out and he like cooked these eggs with like fresh truffle and stuff and he was like he's like we don't really get a lot of foreigners here and he's like um uh you know he's like uh

Like, he's like, yeah, I love what I do. And he's like, you know, like, this is like the very... Like, he was, like, so proud of what he did. And he was, like, so, like, happy. And he, like, took a picture with us. And it was just, like, it's like a beautiful... It was, like, a really good thing. And, you know, and it just was, like, so... Because it was authentic, you know? The moment was authentic. It really was. Like, he really was, like, wow, like, you like what we're doing? He's like, I'm so, like, proud. And I'm so happy. And it just was, like, it just felt really good. Like, I really...

miss that you know and like and and it's just stimulating and fun speaking mandarin and like there's always so much to learn you know what i mean and i feel like that's like this whole part of me that i kind of left behind you know and like that that i had here it's like the sense of discovery that you don't necessarily have

Yeah, something like that. I think also, too, like, you know, I look at, like... Connection to the Chinese culture, it feels like. It is, yeah. I really love it. Like, I really love it, and it's, you know, like, there's a lot of negative things to, like, China. You know, I'm sure you all, like, you guys experience it, too, but there's things I really love about it. There's things I really love about Chinese people. Like, they're really wonderful, and, like, when you really experience that, it's like...

It's so good. It's so nice. They're really, really like good people. And I miss that, you know, I really miss that. And I definitely miss too, like living in Shanghai. It's like, it's so nice. Like just you walk everywhere, you take the Metro everywhere, you know. Everything's within hands. It's easy, you know. And now you can pay with your phone. I know you guys were using cash on this particular trip, but when you come back, like you do everything with your phone.

Yeah, no, that's, yeah, I don't like, I don't use cash at home. I use credit cards. But if I could use my phone, that'd be even better. I mean, like Apple Pay. It's starting, though. It's starting. I feel like America is starting to catch up. Slowly. Like even Apple Pay doesn't work. Like Claudia loves to use Apple Pay. And it's funny because she's like, oh, I can use Apple Pay here. And like it doesn't work all the time. Oh.

That's Apple. Okay. Sorry. That's Apple. They'll get you. I got a friend that, you know, I'll give him a call. Like he works on that kind of stuff. Your dog, yeah. Yeah. Dog Tim. Yeah, Tim. Neo Renjin. Shout out to Alex Pei, actually. He works on that team. We'll get that shit working. Well, that was weird. But I have to get your view on one thing. So how do you...

Going back to when you left Shanghai, how do you just go into LA, the most competitive place on earth when it comes to entertainment and entertainment work?

How do you just dive in there? I don't know. How old were you when you were? I was 30. So you were 30. I just turned 30. So yeah, just turned 30. How do you at that point just dive in there, leaving everything behind in Shanghai, having minimal experience, I guess, at that point in really in an industry and just diving into the most competitive, most cutthroat place on earth for entertainment?

And just cut your way through and pave your way for your own career. How did you do that? What was that process like? Yeah, it was hard. It was pretty hard. I had a lot of help. Honestly, my dad helped me out a little bit in the beginning.

But it was scary because like, you know, the amount of help I got was like dwindling by the time I actually started. But I think that was good for me. It was good to struggle and it was good to be like,

Like, it's on me. Like, I have to... You need that. You have to... At a certain point, you have to kind of, like, struggle and, like... Like that fire under your ass? Yeah, like the fire under your ass and kind of, like, over... Like, if you don't ever get that, then you're never going to be anything. Like, you have to have that. That was a problem. That was, like, part of the reason, too, why I think I moved to China was, like...

My family, like, my mother and father, they, if anything, they loved me too much. Like, they would give me too much. They would help me too much, you know. And so, like, it was really good for me. That was part of the reason, I think, too, why I came here was it was like, get away, you know, like, get away from them and kind of have to, like, struggle a bit. But, like, yeah, going there, I mean...

It was hard. It was really hard. And the thing too was like growing up, I was, I was, I mean, not to sound arrogant, but I was like good. I was really good at drawing, like compared to anybody my age, like

In my – there was nobody in my school. They were like, whoa. Like, I remember, like, seniors in high school, like, and I was, like, in eighth grade, they'd be like, whoa. Like, they were looking at stuff I was drawing, and they were just like, wow, this is so – you know, like – so I had this – I always had that sense of myself, like, yeah, I'm really – I'm a good artist. And then I went to –

LA and it was like, you're not that good. You're not that good. And like, I hadn't been doing it. I hadn't kept up, you know? And, and it was, it was really humbling. And even beyond that, doing animation, I had never, I went into like 3D. I'd never touched 3D and I'd never done animation. So, I mean, those things, like I was,

I sucked. Like, I mean, I look at the stuff I was doing in the beginning and like, I was not good. I was not. How did you even start then? Like, how did you even get like your first opportunity? Yeah. So it was funny because like, I mean, one of my, one of my, one of my oldest friends, he actually like he's, he's in the fine arts scene in New York, which like, I actually like, I love the guy. I don't know. I don't understand how he's.

kind of like stayed in that scene, you know, like the fine art thing. But he actually knew about this school called Noman in Hollywood. And he's like, oh, maybe when I was still in L.A. and considering where to go, he's like, oh, maybe you want to go here. That's where I ended up. I started there. And then it was like I didn't arrive in L.A. and like know exactly what I wanted to do. So I had to kind of like figure it out. And, you know, basically like I want to spend the least amount of money possible

And like have like a career. I ended up doing this thing called animation mentor, which is like these animators from like DreamWorks or Disney and you, they, they critique your stuff. So you submit a video of your animation. They'll do like draw overs like this is wrong. This is wrong. Like punch this up, blah, blah, blah. I ended up doing that. So I did that. I came out and then like,

You know, you, I get like random jobs, you know, like I just started picking up things very slowly. So you were freelance right from the get go. Right from the get go. And it was like whatever I could find, you know, I remember I worked for this guy. He was like a trust fund kid. He lived in this like high rise in Hollywood and he was neighbors with Frank Ocean. Do you guys know Frank Ocean? Sure, yeah.

He was trying to pitch this video game for Frank Ocean, who was his neighbor who lived across the hall. And he lived in this giant, like, penthouse in Hollywood. And he had, like, a male poodle. And he was, like, gravity bonging all day and playing Call of Duty. And, like, he hired me for a couple weeks. I'm like, all right, yeah, let's do this. Like, we were...

What did he hire you for? Yeah, he hired me. Oh, yeah, we were doing like a video game pitch for him. I mean, it never turned into anything, but it was like I took whatever I could. Yeah, it was something. It was something. Did you pitch with him to Frank Ocean? No, but Frank Ocean came over and would hang out. Oh, really? Yeah, he like would buy like multiples of the same shoe. Yeah, of course. And he'd be like, yo, which one of these do you like? Yeah, like both.

That's so weird. It was fucking weird. Yeah, it was a good Hollywood stuff. I mean, like, it was weird. It's like, yo, which one? There's some which one. And they're like all the same. No, tell me. There's some interesting characters. When I visited you that one time, I was like, that was kind of interesting. Oh, where? That one apartment you lived in. And then you had the other creative people in the same building. Oh, yeah. You came over to Eagle's house. Eagle's.

Yeah. And I was like just losing. Eagle Wolf. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, what? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Eagle Wolf. That was crazy. Yeah, I think... Who or what the fuck is Eagle Wolf? Well, so yeah, so I moved to LA and like everyone... So I was drinking a lot when I lived in Shanghai. And then when I moved to LA, like everyone smokes weed there. So, I mean...

I still live in actually the same building. I live in this neighborhood called Los Feliz, and I live in this old building from like, I think it's from the 30s or 40s. And I have a lot of weird neighbors with weird names. I have one neighbor named Icarus Glorfindel.

Icarus Glorfindel? Icarus. Yeah, his name is Icarus. Is that his birth name? Yes. Like he gets mail. Like I see envelopes and it's like Icarus Glorfindel. Wow. And I had a neighbor named Eagle Wolf. His parents were hippies or something. Like it was like Eagle River Wolf or something. I don't know, something like that. But Eagle was like literally, he had the apartment like right next to mine and he

This guy's place was like a college dorm that never stopped being a college dorm. It was like all like fucking like black lights and like posters and like macros. Yeah, like Robotech, like macros things and like video games. Figurines. Figurines. And like there's like a panther statue. And then he had that one painting on the wall that would like change. So if you change the lighting, it would go from like day to night.

Yeah. Yeah. He had that. Yeah. Yeah. Like all kinds of shit. That'd be great if you were like tripping out. Oh yeah. Exactly. Yeah. People go over there and like all the neighbors in the building would go over there and just like smoke, smoke out, smoke, smoke out like really hard. Yeah. Let's go to Eagle. Yeah. They call it hang with the Panther. They call it the Eagle nest. Yeah. Yeah. The Eagles nest. They call it nesting. Like let's go nest. Yeah.

So not to change the topic, but what's Inktober? Oh, Inktober. Yeah. So Inktober is this thing on Instagram. It's this guy who's... What's his name? Jake Parker. Jake Parker started it. It's this thing where it's a challenge. It's a social media thing where you do like...

For the month of October, you do an ink drawing every day for the month of October. Okay. And he gives you like, if you really want to do it correctly, there's a list of prompts. So it's like random words and you have to do a drawing that corresponds to that for every day.

And it's a competition? It's not a competition. It's like a personal challenge. Instagram has a lot of those kind of things, right? It's like 30-day, every day you gotta do something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's something that I like... It's something I've gravitated to, which kind of goes back to something I was talking about earlier, which is kind of like...

You know, not overthinking things and kind of like it's a it's a good thing to practice, like just like doing something every day and kind of like getting it out there and showing it to people. And yeah, it's it's I've benefited a lot from doing it. So I did this actually this this past year and I did a story.

for it. It was involving like pigs. Yeah, I was looking at this. Oh, thanks. Yeah, it's fun. Is that a character you created? Like this pig guy? She...

My girlfriend, Claudia, likes pigs. So she's always like, draw pigs for me and draw bears for me. You make them all muscular and like jack and shit. Yes. So going back to the comic, is that it? It's like comic, yeah, the comic. How to draw the Marvel way. How to draw pigs the Marvel way. How to draw pigs the Marvel way.

Pretty much. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. It's surprisingly hard. Like, it was funny because I, you know, at the same time I was doing that, I was working at this job.

which was like, you know, where the guy came up to me afterwards and was like, oh, you know, you really like so happy with the work you did in Spider. I was doing that job that was like demanding. And I was doing this physical fit. Like I was trying to like lose fat and kind of like do this like exercise thing. You know, I was working out like five times a week. And so it was like really intense. It was just like nonstop, like discipline, like every day was like, all right, working, doing this. I'm like,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like I come, I do the workout and then I get home and it was like, it's time to do the drawing. And, uh, the thing that I was happy about this year, like doing it was like, I spent like a lot less time thinking about it. Like I just, like, I just like get a clear picture in my head and I would just like do it, you know what I mean? And like put it out there. And like, there were a few times where I was like, ah, I don't really love this one.

But I just kind of, you know, try to do it, you know, try to go for it with it. Have you ever considered doing like tattoo art? Because like usually there's an overlap, right? People who can draw freehand really well can usually do like tattoo art pretty well as well. I never considered doing it for a career, but I do follow a couple of artists that are like they kind of they do like visual art and

And they do tattoos or they're actual like tattoo artists that may sell prints or things like that. My brother got a tattoo of my...

My art on his arm, actually. That's the only tattoo credit I can claim. Was it a muscular pig? He is a muscular pig, yeah. I can say that with 100% certainty. Well, next time I'm getting my... If I get my next tattoo, I'm going to hit you up. You should, Justin. You should totally do that. You mock something up for me. That would be awesome.

He's like, I only draw the Marvel way, though. Voltron all the way. Voltron. Here, cheers. Cheers. Hey, Rich, Claudia, thank you so much for being on the show today. Thank you, guys. This was an awesome conversation. I don't think I've ever laughed so much in a podcast episode as we did today. Thanks for sharing. Thank you. Well, that's it, guys. I'm Justin. Say hello. I'm Justin. He's Howie. Say goodbye. I'm Eric.

All right, guys. Later. Bye-bye. Peace. Bye.