#37. Adrian lai: Subculture x Technology
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What's up everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us at [email protected]. And if you've been enjoying the show, go ahead, rate, comment, and high five that subscribe button. Now, our guest today is a real creative guy. He's the founder and CEO of a tech company called Yumi.

The idea behind Yumi is social commerce. So he's created a platform that makes it easy for, let's say, niche foreign brands to sell their products in China through social media apps like WeChat, making that social digital retail experience as natural and intuitive as possible based on our existing habits and how we interact with social media. Things that we're constantly on our

already, all the time, anyway. These are my words, not his, so I hope I'm giving a fair account of what his company actually does, but this doesn't even scratch the surface of what makes this guy interesting. In his former and accomplished marketing career, he has led teams in developing award-winning campaigns for brands such as Nike, Converse, Beats by Dre, and Tiffany and

After that, he moved on to become the head of culture marketing at Red Bull China, creating and influencing all sorts of real cool projects and cultural movements. And I really think that's the best way to describe it. These are not just marketing campaigns. They really become cultural movements here in China. They all represent the extreme and rebellious nature of the Red Bull ethos.

This man has a passion for subculture. He's also a DJ. There's a lot of words that can describe him, creative director, entrepreneur, artist, but I think he's just a real creative and forward-thinking guy. We had a great time talking to him. So without further ado, please welcome Adrian Lai. ♪ I would love to see ♪

All right. Room tone. That's a pretty fancy smancy word here. You're waiting to throw that one out. We're kind of a big deal, okay? I'm kind of a big deal now. Yeah. It's not fancy for people who know. All right. Cheers. I thought that was a normal thing. Like a normal podcast. Yeah. For you guys, it's probably very normal. And Eric is empty handed. So why are you empty handed, man?

I think we should just ignore Eric throughout this entire episode. That's okay. All right. I'll just listen. Because he's not drinking. I talk too much anyways. What are you guys drinking? We're drinking the Benromach Speyside Single Malt Scotch Whiskey. Okay. We've had this before 15 years. It's pretty good. Welcome, Adrian. Thank you. How are you doing, bro? Great to be here. So what are we talking about today? Just life? Life in Shanghai? You're an interesting guy, right? I don't know about that, but I guess, yeah.

- Well, we think you're an interesting guy. That's why we have you on the show. I don't know, where do you guys want to start? You've done so many things. Can you just give a little listener's history? - You have done a bunch of things. - Like a brief background of your experiences? - Yeah, sure. Yeah, so I'm Adrian Lai. I'm the CEO and founder of a tech startup now.

based out of Shanghai called Yumi. And we're a social commerce platform that helps international brands sell to China on WeChat. It's our core premise. But I've been in Shanghai

for around 10 years started out doing in the advertising circuit doing digital marketing i was heading up the digital team at uh white and kennedy then i was at red bull um helped them launch in china as their uh head of culture marketing which is like the fun job yeah that was the fun job i remember you when you were doing that it was the fun job yeah and i've also been uh

DJ and involved in the music scene here and then have also done a lot of various side projects like curating photography exhibitions and different events. So you're just you're just a straight-up creative, right? You just dabbled in all things creative. Yeah, I love working with creative communities working with subculture and and helping and being involved in that scene and

And now I'm in this new journey. I've been in it for a while, but in this new sort of tech and startup. But I feel like they're still aligned, right? Are the two worlds merging? Ultimately, that's what my goal is, is to combine commerce and culture.

And so our platform is also, you know, it's also a marketplace where we try to work with independent brands and independent creators and then give them a platform to sell. And a lot of the brands that we're trying to work with are direct-to-consumer independent brands that are maybe doing really well on Instagram and other more niche platforms, but there's no way they can...

fathom how to sell to China. So what sparked this kind of leap for you in terms of like stepping out on your own, taking those risks to kind of start your own platform, do your own thing that is also different, a little bit different from what you were doing before? I would have to imagine before you probably had some pretty cushy jobs. Yeah. Seems like you were pretty high, pretty high up there working with some like, you know, real big firms and doing some

working on huge campaigns, marketing campaigns for big brands, things like that. Why give that up? - Yeah, I mean, I think it was just that. When I came out here, I was working on the agency side of things, and then at Red Bull, I was on the client side of things, and the next step for me was to explore

my own entrepreneurial side of things. So after Red Bull, I was doing consulting here and there and then realized that if I... I could either start trying to find the next job or try to start doing my own thing and see how that went. And it seemed like, for me at the time, it seemed like, okay, this is my last chance to do that because I'm turning...

40 this year, so I was like 36, 37 at the time and it was like this is my last chance to do that before I have a family and have some real responsibilities. - You were about to say midlife crisis, weren't you? You were about to say that, you caught that, right?

- Yeah, I mean maybe right now I'm at sort of a midlife crisis, but like it was, yeah, my thought process at the time was like before I get to the midlife crisis, let me take the leap. - But you feel it kind of creeping on, that midlife? - Well, I think when you turn 40, you start like, and a lot of my friends have kids and are married. I have a girlfriend, but yeah, I think you start assessing

your place in the world compared to like what your contemporaries are doing and then yeah, thinking about that. - So it was a pretty, from what I'm hearing, it's a mixture of like just trying to be adventurous but at the same time taking a very sober look at your situation in life, being like well, the risks are just gonna get higher

as I age because I'm gonna have a family, I'm gonna have kids, more responsibilities, other people to care for. And this is the probably lowest risk time of my life so far where I can still do these things. And even if it doesn't go well, I mean, at least I don't have kids to look after. I don't have to worry about those kinds of responsibilities just yet. - Yeah, that was definitely a consideration. Was it really hard for you to do that?

to make that jump? No, because I had been thinking about it for a while. Like before going to Red Bull, I was already thinking about doing that. And then the Red Bull opportunity came along and like you said, it was like a really fun job. So, you know, that kind of just fell in my lap and decided to do that. What made the Red Bull experience so fun?

- Because it's basically every, it was, it's everything I like about doing, everything I like about doing with marketing. So it's working with cultural communities. You're able to activate really cool programs like Red Bull Music Academy, Red Bull BC One, which is their break dancing competition.

and then launch it in China for the first time. So everything we did was new, like never been done before. And then you have resources and budgets to work with. So it's fun. There was a lot of travel.

great team and then doing something in China, activating it for the first time. - Yeah, Red Bull, I think, in the past few years or even decade really has really kind of like, in my mind, kind of led the way of like brand identity in terms of brand culture. They've done a remarkable job. They're in like, they've sent that communication like so clearly in all facets of things, like whether it's like everything extreme, right? They do. - Right, yeah. - Right, so it's fucking awesome. - Yeah.

Red Bull gives you wings. - Well, did you feel that sense of culture when you were working there? Was it like really part of their DNA? - Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, everything that we did was ultimately, what was cool about Red Bull's kind of marketing DNA and strategy is to not

what's already trending and big, but to try to identify the emerging threads that are just coming up and then give them the resources, give them wings to get to the next level. - So they don't give a shit about the status quo, it was just like, we're gonna make our own thing here. - No, this is the marketing strategy at the time, that might have changed now, but at the time, and everything that they had done previously, whether that's F1,

or extreme sports was about finding things that weren't, were at the cusps, not at the most popular and peaked level and then take it there. I think that's really smart. I mean...

I mean, it's not only just smart, but it's also like I was saying before, I mean, it's pretty fun being like spearheading, you know, a lot of new experiences and making it really popular. Like you said, you're giving not just platform, but money and support and exposure. And I mean, that must have been really exciting because coming from, you know, being from the West, right? And then coming to China and understanding that, I mean, in the past, let's say 10, 15, 20 years,

China culture, whether it's subculture or mainstream culture, has been exploding, diversifying, being influenced by the West, merging with its own cultures and creating its new type of things. How do you feel about, from a marketing perspective, just being in the cut of subculture in the past couple of years?

you know what was it like being in you know what was it like here in china what is it like being part of the cool kids crowd right i think that's what it is like you're involved in all that kind of stuff yeah i think in the last couple years you know when i first came out here china was kind of like the wild wild west and that's what really um appealed to me and was intriguing to me and in the last

few years you know you've seen like China becoming the leader in terms of like setting certain trends and especially when it comes to technology you know with TikTok and live streaming you know we're like ahead of the curve so I think even e-commerce right and e-commerce yeah but do you think that I I don't want to cut you off but do you think that's something that is

you have to have lived here to really understand that or because when I talk to people in the West, I don't feel they don't have that sentiment at all. I feel they're not thinking, oh, China's leading the way in technology. I don't think they even know about that kind of stuff. Well, I don't. Yeah. I mean, do they know that TikTok is basically, you know, a Chinese company? Yeah. Yeah.

But the sentiment overall, is that something you feel like you've only learned through your China experience? Or would you feel that same way if you were still like, let's say in Singapore or in the States? Yeah, I guess maybe it is because I've been here and then I've also lived in the States and I've gone back and forth. Maybe it's just the way I feel. I'm not sure.

- Well, no, that's just something I've always been curious about. Because when you talk to people in the West, they're like, what do you mean? - Well, the lens is different. - But then when they come here and they start using WeChat and WeChat Pay, a lot of it-- - But that's what I'm saying, you have to be here, you have to live here to have experience. Otherwise, that sentiment doesn't really exist elsewhere. - Right. - I think it does. I mean, it depends on who you're talking to. So if you're talking to people in the US that don't have exposure to

outside the US, then they're not gonna be aware. But if you talk to people who are involved in technology in the US, I think they all, you know, I can't say they all, right? Like I think there are people

lots of people that would acknowledge that China's leading these things because they're in those spaces. They're in the industry. They're in the spaces. They're kind of connected to things. So I would agree with what you're saying. Probably there's still some ignorance, but I think that I was surprised that people like my brother who don't have that much sort of connection to China at this point in his career, that they pretty much widely acknowledge that China's kind of leading the way. And if you look at

you know, the economist or different sorts of like publications, like all the articles are sort of like they've shifted in their tone in the last 10 or 20 years, right? Is China winning? That's true. That's true. So, but I would agree there's pockets of that kind of ignorance, but I think those people will just always be ignorant. Well, ignorance is a strong word at the same time. You know what I mean? Lack of awareness. Sorry. Yeah. I'm not saying they're ignorant. You know, it's just, it's just that general sentiment doesn't really exist and you can't blame them. Like, you know, like it's,

But it's just weird because when we're here and then all of a sudden, oh my God, you're looking at all these things and you're seeing really the cutting edge of a lot of things here.

But then you leave China and it doesn't seem to have that same effect. I'm still blown away though, you know, having also been someone who's been here, you know, more than 10 years. Like I remember a time when China lagged behind the rest of the world and the perception was that China was always copying things. Yeah. And like, I mean, there was a really strong stigma and I'm just blown away. There still is a stigma. Yeah. But I'm absolutely blown away at how things have kind of shifted. Right.

so have you seen in in your field like what's like because you have first-hand experience with this kind of stuff right yeah like what's what's your perspective on that in terms of how it's helped your career and how you feel like what do you think the future of that is um well i mean i think you know with e-commerce um in particular

Especially with the current COVID-19 situation, a lot of small, medium-sized businesses and retailers are going to need to go online. And not just online, but also look into expanding their global e-commerce footprint and selling outside of their domestic economy. So that's where I see the potential for us as a business is.

But I mean, you know, just based on the data that's come out from the last few months is that people have been spending a lot more time on, you know, on their screens and on mobile surfing. And then e-commerce numbers as a whole, especially in China, basically compared to last year are have equalized. So I think that industry is still growing.

compared to some of the other industries that have had more of an impact like travel is still a viable um model yeah well have is there any um kind of lingering effects of your experience let's say at red bull and their mentality with what you're doing on your own as an entrepreneur in terms of maybe trying to break the paradigm

of just using, because the whole thing is like, oh yeah, get a WeChat account, go online, just as a retailer, just to sell, because everyone's shopping on their phones now, right? - Yeah. - And so everyone's just like, okay, so how do we, the brick and mortar is kind of slowing down, and we're trying to sell more things online, and that seems to be the general trend for years now.

But I think that's like the traditional mentality of how to look at, right? It's a very limited approach. Is there a sense of you where you're trying to like completely just like shatter that paradigm? Like look, there's a whole different way we can look at this thing and use technology here. - Yeah, so for you and me, I don't think we've quite figured out our exact business model.

but I can tell you what inspires me. And it kind of is connecting to my previous experience about working with different, more independent, more cultural communities and giving them tools to enable them.

So I think, you know, look, looking at there are a couple, I guess, more niche marketplaces that I've been really into. So you look at Taobao and it's a huge like transactional marketplace and you can find everything. But then a more niche marketplace that I saw recently that was really cool is one called Parade, Parade World. And what Parade World is, it's a marketplace that,

that takes skate shops from all around the world. So they have a US site and then a UK site and they take skate shops from different cities and they aggregate them into one marketplace. So when you're on Parade, the website, it's just one single destination where you can shop from all these different skate shops, but it helps bring all these niche,

together. So everyone's driving traffic into one destination and it helps because it's a, you know, there it's a single tone of voice and they're aligned in terms of that, um,

fairly niche target audience. So it's a one-stop shop for all the skate shops. Yeah. Is it just, is it more, does it expand more just to streetwear in general or is it just specifically like kind of skate shops? Yeah. And what I like about it is that it's very specific to skate shops. You know what you're getting. Like you go there, you know where you're going. Yeah. You're getting hardware and you're getting, they're just not any, you're just not trying to be like a retail platform and just trying to get everyone. They're just like this, this is what we're all about. We're all about skate. Yeah. And we're all about supporting skate because, um,

I'm sure skate shops are struggling a lot right now, but this type of model, especially in this current situation, is one that could not just not help each individual skate shop, but help the entire skate community as a whole. - What do you think are some other marketplaces that are ripe for this type of innovation? Like skate is pretty cool, so it feels like it's at,

you know, it's somewhat niche, right? And it needs kind of support, but like our, how big is this market for other types of products? Um, yeah. So what's interesting about parade and is that they're kind of positioning themselves as the far fetch of the skate world. Um, um, depop is another, um, marketplace that is really focused on, um,

a younger audience selling used or vintage things that they found and curated. I think that's also a really interesting niche marketplace. So I guess definitely one of my inspirations and references right now for where I hope to take Yumi is

more in the direction of like a niche marketplace and then it's just finding trying to figure out like what that target audience is and what that niche is. Okay. Yeah. So you still kind of trying to discover that niche or trying to discover that target? Yeah, I think so. I want it to be niche, but also not too small and not too big where we're selling, you know, everything. And that's the challenge of like having that curation

And balancing that between, you know, volume. Well, I think that's a common, your point there, I think that's a common misconception with the word niche. Like whenever we're talking business and people,

use the word, oh, this is very niche, they tend to think it's unscalable. But that's not necessarily so. Niche can be very scalable. Niche is just that you have a very specific message. That's all you're trying to say. But it can be hugely scalable. If we look at, you know, if we stay in the world of like streetwear and things like that, you know, we've seen things like Hypebeast and, you know, all the related platforms that are in that kind of...

stratosphere or that like that world of street culture, they've been hugely successful. Yeah. And especially in the fashion world now, they say niche is the new luxury. Especially with Chinese consumers becoming more sophisticated. They're not just looking at luxury brands that everyone knows. They're looking for that niche luxury brand that they can find and be the first one to figure that out. Yeah. How much

- How much of that change do you really see happening? Because we've kind of hinted at that on this show before where traditionally, historically, luxury in China meant LV, Gucci, Prada, right? Like you were saying, the ones that everyone knows, the mainstream brands.

But when you go into the West, yes, those are still luxury brands, but luxury means very curated things, things that no one else has. The rarity of the item becomes the luxury. Whereas here, the more people know about it is the luxury. So there's that kind of difference. So are you saying you see a big change in the younger generation's mentality in terms of

what they consider luxury and they want more curated things, more in the know kind of items instead of something that's just like hugely mainstream that everyone knows? - Yeah, I think so. And I don't think this is necessarily particular to China, but I think the younger audiences are more interested in like finding things that are maybe original and things that

they can be the first to discover and own something.

- Well, your experience at Red Bull, did you find that, because going back a little bit, you were talking about, you know, your job at Red Bull was to kind of introduce these new ideas and campaigns and events into the China market, right? Whether it was break dancing or whatever, whereas you guys were doing at the time, how did you feel was the response to those kind of things, to those more, I guess, niche or less mainstream kind of things?

I guess the mission then wasn't necessarily to introduce them to the market, but breakdancing, for example, was, I mean, it was surprising to me too at the time, but it was very established in China and China was probably the biggest breakdancing market in the world at that time. So when we threw the BC One competition, we had the most, and it wasn't even like the China, like the main event,

It was part of, like we embed it into another event. It had the most attendance out of any of the other. - Globally you mean? - Yeah, global BC One events. - Are the BC events the largest break dancing events in the world? Right? They are. - I don't know about now. This is a few years ago, but they're one of the top B-boy competitions in the world, yeah.

- So what about other things? Okay, so maybe I was, I don't know about break dancing. So break dancing was already a hugely established thing in China. What about the less established things you feel you had to push? What was the general response?

people's willingness to accept those kind of ideas, I guess. Yeah, I think like with Red Bull Music Academy, it was about identifying smaller, more emerging independent artists. And I think that's maybe a different side of the story because it's very hard to push independent artists in China where the Chinese music industry is

very commercial in terms of like popularity. Yeah. And pushing that across. Yeah. I actually, I do want to talk about that for a little bit, like music, because I mean, you were definitely ingrained in the music scene, um, whether it's a DJ or like you said with Red Bull, um,

I mean, music in China is, like you said, very mainstream focused, right? And then the underground scene is... I mean, there is one. It's just pretty small, right? Do you feel that it's been changing? Has it been growing? Because I'm not really in that scene. I used to be in New York, you know what I mean? So it's like it interests me, but I'm just curious. I think it's small relative to...

relationship between artist popularity and commercial success elsewhere in the world. But if you look at interest levels and the ability to access different genres and formats of music in China, the younger generation are

really, really versed at finding artists they like, finding new artists. There are actually some really cool, interesting talent coming out of that. - There's more of that demand to kind of be like, have that sense of discovery. - Right. - Like, oh, I found this artist. - But whether those types of artists can then become commercial success,

and actually find a financial success doing that. They can in the West where someone on SoundCloud or YouTube can then become massive. I think that's still a hurdle. - Or like Rich Chigga or like Lil Dicky. - Post Malone, yeah. - What about, what's the guys from Sichuan?

higher brothers so what was their origin story were they kind of like really underground mainstream from the beginning or were they just kind of like instantly successful in the beginning like i don't know like because they're pretty popular now right well yeah i mean they were probably the first um breakout internationally from china but yeah they were um you know uh uh

rap group from Chengdu and then got picked up got signed by 88 Rising the music label and and through that platform we're able to really create a voice outside of China mhm

So is there, do you sense that there's this, because from what I understand, this could be completely wrong, but like it's really out like in Sichuan, like Chongqing, Chengdu, like these type of places is kind of like the new creative hotspot for like young music and specifically when it comes to hip hop. Yes. Is that like kind of hotbed there right now? Yeah. Chengdu is still a hotbed for hip hop and rap in China. Yeah.

Also Xinjiang actually has a lot as well, right? Yeah, really. Yeah, and I heard like Wuhan is pretty good with like rock, like indie rock. Yeah, Wuhan's always, like, yeah, every region has their own

So hip hop is their own flavor of food. It's interesting. It's like in America, I got like Seattle grunge. Yeah. New York hip hop. West coast hip hop. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's what it was. It's like, you know, there, there is that. And I, and I do see a little bit of that. What is that? Like the culture expanding, you know, whether it's a different niches of music expanding and stuff like that. But I just, I still feel like, I mean, we're in Shanghai. I just feel like Shanghai is pretty sterile in terms of,

I mean truth be told right like compared to other places even in China I mean it's still more about it's very much about capitalism here in Shanghai less about art even though there is an art scene and stuff like that but I mean what do you think? Well I think Shanghai now compared to like Shanghai 10 years ago is definitely not as interesting whereas

10 years ago when I first moved here, I was moving here from New York. And so... What was your experience like? We talk about this all the time. So it kind of felt like New York was... I mean, Shanghai was like in the running to become the next New York or the New York of Asia because there were so many interesting people coming through and so many interesting things happening. It was like New York on steroids, right? Yeah. And now I feel like that energy has kind of died down because it's become more...

and regulated and become more like civilized. Yeah. A normal city versus like, you know, in New York in the,

90s or 80s where it was the wild wild west but a lot of creativity came out of that yeah oh we feel that i and i've said this many times on this podcast like we feel pretty much the exact same way when we came out here like you said it was like the wild wild west eric has coined the term it was really the wild wild east right yeah and then you know but now it's just it just seems to have changed and maybe it's just us maybe we're just older maybe it's because we're getting older maybe we're just getting maybe to the young folk here they're like what the fuck are you talking about like

You know, because like we don't really go out anymore. So like the whole nightlife scene, you know, to us is like this foreign thing. We used to go out all the time. We used to be like have our finger on the pulse of like what's the hot place is, what's the cool place. Now I have no fucking clue. You know what I mean? And is that like in your line of work, is that something you have to like kind of be in tune with? Like before, previously, not so much now. Previously, not so much anymore. I don't go out as much these days. You don't go out as much anymore?

But I did go out last night. It was my first time in a while.

But I went to a voguing studio opening. What? A what studio? A voguing studio. So it's like a type of dance. Like this? Like voguing? Yeah, exactly. It came out in New York in the 80s ballroom. That's a thing now. Yeah, it was like an LBGT kind of community thing. Okay. And voguing is a type of dance that Madonna made popularized. And it's a thing. So there's a voguing studio that just opened on Chang Le Lu. Got it. And it's pretty cool. Got it. Okay.

So that's cool. So that's like this one really good example of a very niche. That's very niche. It has to be very niche, right? Were you participating? No, I did not partake last night, but I know the owner and he taught me some moves the other night.

that I practice in private, but I'm not ready to take that out in public yet. So what about like DJing? Do you still DJ at all or no? I don't actually DJ that much anymore. Yeah. I need to make a new mix for someone, but I haven't DJed in a while. You used to be DJing pretty often. I used to DJ like once every...

like every weekend or every other weekend. - What's your setup like? Are you just all digital or do you use still vinyl? - Now I'm all digital, but I started with vinyl or Serato vinyl.

And then now I just use USBs 'cause it's so much easier. 'Cause I lost all my shit. - Yeah, you can't carry around all the money. - Actually, I got all my shit stolen and I just couldn't be bothered to buy it again. So I just bought two USBs. - That's awesome. - And decided to learn that way. - So when you see like all these like hot, like these huge DJs, like, you know, like, you know, I'm out of the scene. So I don't know who's like hot right now, but like, you know, we saw previously in previous years, like Skrillex and all these big guys, like when they're doing these like huge festivals and events,

DJ is an art form.

as a DJ like what's your honest assessment because there's a lot of critics out there that'd be like oh they're all they're doing is like hitting play and then they're standing behind the DJ booth and like jumping around right like but like but because I've DJed before and I started I started off with vinyl myself I was really into like the scratching culture like the invisible scratch pickles everyone you know yeah beat junkies I was like that was like my scene back in the day it was before Serato before everything yeah and so everything was very manual back then and um

And then so like I understand, I appreciate like the art of DJing and the mixing and spinning and everything like that. But then like you see a lot of these like pop culture DJs now. Steve Aoki. And you just like, and like a lot of people are kind of just lost in what it is they actually really do besides just hitting play and pressing, you know, play. So can you just like, can you like bring some clarity to that? Or do you feel the same way? I don't know if they actually hit play or not, but I guess...

To me, DJing has always been about creating that vibe and if you're able to curate that energy in an audience, whether you're just hitting play, I mean, you should do it spontaneously because it ultimately should be conversation. If you're hitting play, then you're not having any conversation, right? But, and maybe that's just the, how it works, but

these days but ultimately the art form of DJing is being able to read the audience to curate like original selections but also music that people respond to and then being able to like

curate that whole energy. - Yeah. - Yeah. - To manage the energy of the room, of the event, right? - Right. But the tools can be different, I think. I mean, you know, like, I also learned the hard way, but now when I'm using USBs,

I feel like that's more in a way more true to the original form of DJing than using Serato records. I mean, I don't really scratch that much. So it's a different, it's more about playing, right? But using Serato records and then you have your laptop there and you're actually looking at the music and you're looking at the

cue points and then you're matching them up visually versus using your ears yeah with USBs you have to use your ears so I think it's almost more true yeah to the original yeah because with this with a lot of the software it counts the BPMs for you yeah you know you just can't you know it's very easy to match yeah yeah you know it's interesting um because I've often thought like okay so what do DJs actually do and right yeah like the same same concept right

And, you know, like I'm personally not super knowledgeable or into that kind of stuff, although I'm aware of it. But you meet people who will tell you, oh, that particular DJ is my absolute favorite. And they have an emotional connection to that person. And they go to different shows.

And it clearly has made an impact on them. And I was just thinking that when you press play or you choose songs, what's the difference from that versus like a really eloquent speaker

choosing words. The words already exist, just like the songs already exist, but it's how you put all these words together, how you read the audience. And then, you know, the sequence of these things that then evoke this emotional response. So it's not really, there's probably a rational aspect of it. You could probably study it. I mean, me being kind of, you know,

often in a rational mode, but it's more subliminal, right? And it's intuitive, it's emotional. And if you are able to kind of tap into that energy as a listener, there is something there.

that exists. It clearly is tangible, but can you really put a finger on it? I don't know. But for the people who can kind of hear that and feel that, like I admire them and I want to learn more about it. But I think that's what music is in general. I think the other thing with DJs is that what I see...

is a lot of they produce their own music as well. So very few DJs just like press the button these days. I mean like the really well known ones, they produce their own mixes and remixes and all kinds of stuff. - Well I think where a lot of things get misunderstood with DJing is that you have to see DJs as more as a producer role in my view. But a lot of people wanna compare and draw parallels to DJs as musicians.

Which you can, but that's where a lot of things get misunderstood. Musicians are actually playing the notes one by one. Everything a musician does, whatever instrument they're playing. And a lot of people want to equate that directly to a DJ. And they're like, "Oh, you claim to be a musician, but you're not really a musician because everything's kind of done for you."

And the more accurate depiction would be that of a producer and of managing the energy levels of a given event if they're doing something live, right? So I think from that perspective, it brings a lot more understanding to what they're actually doing. And being a producer is extremely hard. It takes a lot of talent to do that. Not everyone can be a producer, and it takes a lot of taste and know-how. I think that's a brilliant way of looking at it. Another...

like way is a conductor like a conductor doesn't actually play the music and kind of what you said earlier like you know using the USB you still have to like

like beat, what is it called? Beat match? - Yep. - Yeah. So it does let you get to a technical level where you really have to understand the transitions and the passages, right? Like you have to know the music well enough. - You have to be knowledgeable of a lot of music. - But you are kind of like, I agree with you, Justin. I think that's a really good analogy. - Well, I think the conductor thing was even a better analogy. That's like- - Yeah, I think there's different ways of looking at it. But if you really think about it, they're also musicians because

I mean, I've kind of observed, you know, DJs and to see where the transition points are. Right. And I'm like listening at what, like, so a song has like a lot of different things in the song. Like there's ups, highs and lows and all these pieces. There might be a specific part of a song and only that piece that they could actually mix in. So essentially what they're doing is deconstructing a song and different pieces and then mixing them in a unique way. And that piece is actually being a musician.

Right. You're just not, you're not like playing the piano. I mean, it almost is the same thing. Like you're choosing that thing, just like you'd be choosing a note on the piano, but there's not that physical tactical performance piece that playing, um, you know, that we admire of like a great guitarist or a great pianist, but you are building the music in real time if you, if you really understand what's going on. Yep. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely, um,

Like a DJ and a producer are two different things. And sometimes DJs are producers too. But if you look back at the origins of DJs in the 80s doing the block parties in New York City, they were playing other people's music. They weren't playing music that they produced or published themselves. They were playing other people's music and just combining that information

into a way to conduct the energy of that party. But it's fascinating, though, because in a way, technology enabled DJing. Oh, absolutely. And then DJing, like you said, originally just verbatim playing the music, and then eventually people started producing stuff, and then the lines start blurring, and DJs are producers, producers are DJs, and then it evolved in the last, what, 40, however many years, right? Then you have electronic music production. So all of these things were only...

possible through technology. Which is fascinating. And then if you look at mixing sort of different styles, like back in the day, like Beethoven, right? All those motherfuckers sound the same. Like you didn't have like Beethoven who did it one way and then some other dude and it was like completely different. Like pretty much sounded stylistically the same. Now you can just mix and match. And so like that's all, like hip hop like is...

Yeah. It's fascinating. Like new art forms are being discovered and it's, and technology has accelerated music, you know? Yeah. Well, now you have the, uh, the AI algorithm. And that's fucking crazy. Yeah.

Wait, what? AI algorithm? Yeah, what is that? Well, I mean, like when you're just listening to like a Spotify playlist or an iTunes playlist. Well, okay, imagine this. Imagine like AI could sense the energy and heat signatures in a room in people's motion. And then based on that, they could actually like create playlists and shit. Oh, shit. Dude. Adrian, jump on that, bro.

Yeah, I'm just trying to think of how that would be possible, but it would definitely be possible. It could. Because the whole heat measurement thing is a, you're saying as a way, as a tool to kind of measure energy. Yeah, a proxy of engagement. So you could look at people's body language. You could look at their heart rates. Yeah.

Because we're talking about energy management, right? As an DJ's primary role. And then what you could do is the algorithm could be learning. So like it could play this music and then everyone's like really down and just like yawning. So then it wouldn't do that one anymore. And then it would start learning. So over time, based on different audiences, different, and it could figure you out. And I'm going to one-up that. And then you add in face recognition of all the people on the dance floor to see their music habits that they listen to. This technology already exists. You know what I mean? Just utilizing it. Right.

People are fucking hacking our brains. That's why I'm going long form these days, right? We've talked about this. I read books, listen to podcasts. I'm going long form. I don't want to be hacked.

What does that mean? You're going long form. You don't want to be hacked. I mean, I'm reading stuff that was written a thousand years ago. Those motherfuckers couldn't hack my brain. Okay, but podcasts are new. Yeah, but like long form, right? Like an hour, two hours, that kind of stuff. I'm not listening to sound bites where people can just like hack your brain. Long form like this show. Do you think we're hacking people's minds with this show? I don't know. I think we're just, you know, we're just charming and really eloquent motherfuckers. So let me ask you something. In terms of like...

You know, we were just talking about music and performance and stuff like that. Do you feel like there's a huge difference in terms of like whether it's DJing or we're just out partying like in the West and in China, like the vibe and the feel of the people and just general vibe? Do you feel like there's a big difference? No, I think if you're partying anywhere in the world, it is what it is. You're partying. Yeah. I don't think there's a huge difference.

to when a crowd gets turnt and the room is lit. But it was kind of different in 09 though, right? Well, I think there's a difference in like entertainment consumption and behaviors. Like in China, they're more used to going to like

the Chinese clubs and like bottle service. Table service. You know what? Like it's fun. I love that. I want to, let's keep talking about, let's kind of go deeper on this one. Cause this is like Justin's whole nostalgia thing. And basically, let me break it down for you. Okay. Justin's like basically saying, 现在没有以前那么嗨。 对,现在没有以前那么好玩。 But what, like, let's break that down. Is it true? How do we know?

Yeah, well, we mentioned that. It could just be because we're older, right? Like the older generation, no matter whether it's partying or music taste, like no one's thinking like, oh, like that's not music. Like, you know, even back in the day, it was like Elvis Presley or the Beatles. The older generation back then was like, that's not music. What is this rock and roll crap, right? And then so are we just being that generation now looking at like,

Just thinking, looking at the city and being like, oh, it's just not as fun. It's not as good as it used to be. It's just more of a nostalgia thing. - Getting old. - Like you're saying, Eric. It's basically, it's like. But honestly, I really feel it isn't. I try to be objective about it. I really do because it's not like I lack the desire to go out and have fun. I still have that desire. But then sometimes, occasionally, I'll go out and I'm just like, this just isn't, it's just the atmosphere, the people's mentalities.

I mean, memory isn't 100%, but like, it's not even 50%, dude. But to me, like back then, and I don't know if you have the same experience, Adrian, but like back then, like when you, back then, I'm saying it's like 09, 2010 kind of era here in Shanghai, you go out and people's mentality was like, no one gave a

fuck like everyone just wanted to have fun that was like they didn't care if you if you were this high high roller or this baller or who you were or what kind of influence you had or what crowd you hung out with in this table service thing no it was like everyone was just down to get down you know i mean and and you just walked in and it was just a party like you could meet anyone mingle with anyone hook up with anyone it was just

fun, right? And it was just like this, it was like this free spirit about it, right? And then now today when you go out, it's more like, oh, like who are you with? Like the tables and everyone's just kind of showing like, oh, like, you know, I'm just like popping bottles. It's more a showy, it's more like a status thing today.

than it was back then. Okay, I'll be devil's advocate on this one. Because back in the day, we were the ones that had the table. That's true. Right? That's true. I mean, and we were showy. And we'd be like, who had the fucking biggest birthday parties? And if you get like hundreds of people at your birthday party, right? That was like a status thing. But we can still have the tables now.

You know what I mean? So that hasn't changed for us. But it was the regularity. It was the, that table is our table. Like we own that shit. That's what it was, right? It was like that table belonged to us.

- Like everyone knew this club. - I think it depends, like if you're looking at the Chinese club, or it depends on where you went and what you're comparing from back in the day to now. I think for me, what some of the big changes are, back in the day, there didn't used to be that many venues.

and laws and rules. - Everything was more Cheetos. - There was only like two main ones. - I don't know if you guys remember like Yong Fu Lu back in the day, but that you had shelter and then you had apartment and you had Shiva. - And El Cocteau. - And El Cocteau all in one spot. And that was like Shanghai's nightlife was on that street. And then you had the burger guys and the chua guys and the hookers and the drug dealers.

And it was just all in that one street. And I lived right around the corner from that. And that was what I mean by Shanghai being reckless. - That was one pocket. - Yeah, that was only one pocket. - But you are right in that there was less choices back then in terms of, so everyone just congregated in certain areas. And that was definitely one of the areas. But did you ever, Muse won? The first Muse. - Yeah, see I never really got into that.

Oh. That scene. Oh, shit. I was more into the shelter. So you were more like international scene a little bit. More of the underground. More creative, right? More of the underground. More the rebellious type. Chinese club scene. Yeah. Yeah.

But that street was, I mean, what you're just saying, yeah, that was crazy. I mean, that was always crazy. That was nuts. You had street food. You had a nice cocktail bar and a nice, like, you know, like an apartment. You get burgers. Yeah, and then you had the burger truck. The food truck. I mean, you don't have street food in Shanghai anymore, you know, just in general. There's no street food. That food truck was good. That food truck right outside the apartment, dude. Yeah. That did some damage. Yeah.

I did some damn, because that area where you're talking about, that was like our after hours place. Yeah. Yeah. That area is nuts. Yeah. And then it just got shut down, right? Yeah. So. But that's what happens, right? Like there are different pockets. I mean, the first one,

Really like way back in the day for people who came out to China like way back was mom. You know yeah Babyface Buddha bar. Yeah, there's Buddha bar. Yeah, they're like all the school. That's early 2000s Judy Judy that was the turn of the millennium had us yeah Yeah, when I used to visit my mom exactly after college and stuff like that like in college And then I would look up I think I think at that time there's only that Shanghai or City Weekend or there's only one magazine and

I don't know what it was called. City Weekend and That Shanghai were the first two, I think. Yeah, and anyway, Smart Shanghai. There was like a magazine and then literally, I would look up bars and it would be Judy's. Like, that's the only thing I knew. And it would be Maoming Lu. And then at that time, I found like there was Buddha Bar. There was a whole bunch. Yeah.

And it only lasted a short amount of time, I believe, right? I can't remember. I don't know how long it lasted. And then they took it apart. And then they moved it, right? And so that was sort of the charm of it, that these things were not going to be around forever. And you just kind of enjoyed it while. And it was less commercial because they were a little bit underground in the sense that they were kind of following the government permits and all that. But eventually you knew one day the government would move them.

Right now things are they are a little bit more sterile. Everything's a lot more just normal. It's just normalized. Yeah. It's just like everywhere else. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And there isn't that kind of specialness in terms of like you're getting kind of a more unique experience here anymore. Now when you go out it's like yeah it could be fun but it's like I can go out anywhere in the world and it would be more or less the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. No. But muse. When I hear the word muse. Oh God. It just.

You know, it's like, it brings back, like, I don't know. Oh, man. Which Muse though? Muse 1, Muse 2, Muse 3? All of them, but mostly Muse 1. I couldn't stand Muse 2. Muse 2 was horrible. What, like in the mall? Like, what was that? 66 Plaza or something? Horrible music, horrible people. But Muse 1 was... I had a lot of fun in Muse 1. You weren't here for Muse 1? So Muse 1 was like, the peak was like 2007, 2008. And it was owned by celebrities, right? It was like...

Liang Chaowei's wife or something like that. Like it was celebs. We own that place. And like on a really funny, like the day, like I knew like I owned that place. Obviously I'm joking, but...

the day I knew I kind of owned that place was remember like especially during the winter times we had to everyone check their coats in the coat check where the IE there was like one IE there managing the coat check and then you would walk into the club right and then on busy nights right on the weekends

Like that coat check line was long. Oh, very long. Very long. Like you had to stand in there and wait like a long time. And that was the worst part. And everyone's itching to get into the club because you're already at the club and you have to stay in this coat check line. I remember that feeling. Yeah. And you're just like, come on, hurry up. So this was like we had, this was already our like regular place, right? And then there's a huge line, right? There was this huge, huge line. And I think I was with somebody. But, yeah.

And there's like this huge line and I was like, there was a winter time was cold. So everyone's walking in with huge coats. And I was like, fuck this. Right. So I just walk up. I pass the line. I walk up directly to the IE that's managing all the coats and she's busy, like, you know, giving everyone the bracelets and like checking in the coats and I go out and I walk in because I've gone there so many times. She recognizes me. She knows me. Right. I'm like, hey, you know, I like I kind of wink at her. She's like, OK, I'll take care of you.

So she just checks my code in and everyone's like, "What the fuck, man? "We've been with Cydding a lot." And I'm like, "I got this." I just check my code in and she takes care of us and I just walk right into the club like a VIP.

- You were that asshole. - Yeah, I was that asshole. It's so stupid of a thing, but it was like those little things that made it home, you know? That made News 1 our little place. - It was almost the acknowledgement by the staff of your patronage of that place. - Exactly. - And then that's when sometimes when I would blow up, like most of the time it would go well, but then there might be one person that didn't recognize you and be like, "You know who I am?"

Right? Like it was expected that you have to know who we are. Have you ever pulled that card before? No, I've never. It's like. Adrian is looking at us like, I didn't know you guys were such assholes. Maybe when I was like really drunk once, but I don't think it worked. That was like every week. We would almost try to find people who didn't know us so that we could get mad. I don't know about that. Okay. Maybe.

Maybe you. No, but it was fun, though. But as much time as I spent in that place, I really don't remember much of it. Yeah, that was all a blur. It's all a blur. It was all just one long night to me. Yeah, pretty much. Are they still around? No. Shut down like years ago, right? Was the Muse chain still around? Are there other Muses? I don't even know. I have no idea. We don't party. If you're listening to this and you know, let us know. I think it sort of went downhill after like 2011, 12 or so. Yeah.

So let's get back to Adrian here. Tell us about your party days a little bit. Let's hear some stories. Yeah, let's hear. Give us something in your top 10 crazy nights. He's smiling already. Top 10. He's looking at the door right now. He's like, I should get out of here. If it's in top 10, then I probably don't remember it. Right.

but i love that smirk like right when he said that it like the smile he was like he was replaying he was reliving it he was living a memory just now it's like like no but i i wasn't really that into the club the big chinese club scene i was more always more into the shelters the logos the more underground scene and the arcades you like our kids of the scene

And then I lived on Yongfulu. So, Shelter and Arcade and Arkham were both walking distance. Like, go-to. So, I would just hit. Well, arguably, those places were even more crazy than Muse. You know? Muse was the typical kind of place. They were more eclectic. It's just different. So, like, I'm just curious. Like, what he was trying to say is, like, so, based on the places you went, any crazy shit that you experienced? Tell us some stories. That stands out. I mean, they're, like, what was cool about Shelter is, like, it was always...

just a dark dungeon and and yeah you could do anything you wanted there it was literally a bomb shelter yeah it was literally a bomb shelter especially that back room yeah yeah so what happened in the back room no it's just I mean it wasn't like you know you guys know fuck you guys tell me it wasn't like a brigade or anything like that but um

Yeah, we just had some really wild nights there. That's all I can say. All right, all right. We'll stop pressing. We'll stop pressing. But when you look at the landscape today, and I don't mean just nightlife and clubbing, but just in terms of the...

subculture in China and particularly maybe in Shanghai, like the underground scene, what stands out to you in terms of things like that we should look out for that you think are like the next things coming up in the underground scene? Or just in subculture in general, like what is it? Yeah, it's really tough for me to put a finger on that, especially in this day and age.

Well, like, cause like we got like skate is already established here, right? So that's, that's not really considered subculture anymore. There's the music scene. It's still subculture. It's not, it's not like it's mainstream. I mean, it's always been subculture. Yeah. Skate. I mean, skate is like, um, yeah, pretty big. Like if you go to West Bond, I don't know if you guys have been recently, but there's that one area with a skate park. Oh, the skate park is where the little kids go. And then there's the steps.

And if you go there, there's like 300 skaters there any given weekend. But like what it was like, like, you know, things like you mentioned, like voguing, like is that a thing that's coming up now in subculture? I don't think it's coming. Is that going to be like this next big thing? It's interesting, but yeah, it's not. That community is not that big yet. There's, yeah, I mean, there's the All Crew. They've been doing their, they're the evolution of Shelter. So they've been doing their thing.

Where is that? All, it's on... Xiangyanglu, right? Yeah, Xiangyanglu. Opposite from Egg. So it's venues? Like they're opening a venue or a club or... Yeah, it's a venue. Have you been to all? But then they also have a community. I've not been to all. Interesting. All, okay. I haven't been to shit.

What about the live music? Yeah, I think you would like all. I think everything's still pretty small. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah, take me. Like, you guys are my only connection to the cool kids. Dude, I don't go out. Are you kidding me? I don't go out. You guys are my only connection to the cool kids crowd now. I'm just an old motherfucker just fucking...

I'm like so too, you know, now. But like, what about like the live music scene here in Shanghai? Like, how's that? Are you, are you, are you like engaged in that world? Not so much anymore, but I think it's, I mean, I don't, I don't know if I'm the right person to comment on that, but I feel like it's pretty much dead recently. Really? Yeah. Well, no, recently because of COVID, but like, but like before that. Well, compared to like, in general, you know, late, like 2000s,

when live music has got kind of taken over by electronic music and then it hasn't quite come back. It's never rebounded, you feel? I think that's a global thing, though, right? Electronic music is between that and hip-hop, right? Right. I mean, rock and roll is dead.

It's been dead for a while. Really? Yeah. That's a shame, dude. But I feel like electronic music is dying down. I feel like that fad, the height of that was like with like in my eyes, in my like non, like my ignorant eyes, like I felt like the height of that was like with Skrillex and his height and his popularity. And then now I feel like people are kind of just tired of that and like kind of going back to like,

Yeah, I wonder what's going to be next. Yeah. You know, I feel like Travis Scott just had a concert on Fortnite. What? Yeah. Really? Yeah. The what? Travis Scott just had a huge concert on Fortnite. That's crazy. On the video game Fortnite? And then a lot of people are using Animal Crossing to like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, wait, wait. How do you have a show on Fortnite? I don't know. I didn't check it out. Because the game and there's probably a video feed that goes into it.

So people are playing the game and maybe you... So you're talking about something like Twitch, right? Wait, wait. Fortnite's a video game, right? Fortnite's a video game. So imagine you're in the video game, right? In the video game, I don't know how Fortnite's set up, but imagine maybe there's a space and a room. And then in the room, maybe there's a screen. And then in that screen is Travis Scott. I'm just speculating, of course. Yeah, I don't think that's how it worked, but...

Probably through live stream. Why wouldn't it work? Probably he's on character in the game. Right. Yeah, I wonder if he's on character. Yeah, essentially, the possibilities are endless in the virtual world. So we talked earlier about AI, but the virtual reality and VR and all that stuff, imagine that you have high definition, it's almost like real life,

then you can do unlimited things in that environment. Yeah, maybe that's where the next emerging underground scene is.

is gonna for real uh emerge from people are doing like your birthday parties i was on a zoom we were on a zoom justin you and i got goblers yeah yeah we're like it was really it was what was really cool about it was that you literally go into this birthday party and like i didn't know anyone else there right and like people you know i got there a little bit early and i just started talking to people and it was super super cool like you're just i was talking to people in prague you know

You know, you just hold on. I got to cut you guys off for a second. And let me know if there is this like if you can do this in Zoom or any other apps. But I feel like what you just said maybe is the future of social like social events. Right. So let's say you go in, you check in, you have all these headshots of video of everyone in the room.

But if you want to talk to somebody, you can click on their name and it becomes solo. And then other people can't talk to them anymore. You don't hear other voices. You just talk to them. That's how Zoom works. That's how Gabor had it. He had like, and he labeled like, oh, if you want to have private conversations, he labeled it can go into the kitchen. Or it can go into the living room or go into the bedroom. So these are just different chat rooms. And that's how Zoom works. And you can still see their headshot and stuff like that. I don't know. I couldn't hear. But like video feed. I know. Because that video feed.

he was just testing and it was like a piece of shit, right? It was really bad. Remember how bad the connection was? Yeah. But Zoom you can because basically in Zoom, let's say that you're in a class of 50 people and there's a professor. And then during the class, you have to do like breakout sessions where you need to discuss your project in a group and then you can create sub rooms. Like for sure, I know you can do that in Zoom.

that's crazy. Cause imagine that you're at a party, like an online party. Right. And you're like, you're trying to like hook up with this girl. You're like, yo, let me, let me solo with you. Well, it's not a far fetch because like people are the, I, the majority of people I see kind of hooking up these days and meeting together, whether, you know, whatever, whatever,

meeting people these days is always through like an app or online. Like that's become the new norm. Like back in my day, that was a taboo. Like when I was growing up, like if you were to like meet someone on like match.com or something like that, that would be like, people will laugh at you for it, right? Like in my day. But now it's completely normal.

It is the new status quo. It's accepted. Because back in the day, it's like if you use those websites like Cupid, OK Cupid, basically you were like there was a stigma and what it meant was you were part of the demographic that couldn't, like you were nerdy. Exactly. Like you couldn't get any chicks. You were a total loser and like you were awkward and you were socially inept. Yeah. But now it's completely the new norm, which is like, so like it's not unfathomable to like to think that like,

That's just gonna keep growing. And then like what you're saying, Howie, there's gonna just be this new evolution of ways to socialize online, digital,

digitally and that will just be accepted we need to make that birthday party is probably a new concept but i think that'll be leading to the next thing i think we need to get on that right now guys like should we start brainstorming well you know um facebook has you did you guys ever fuck with a second world or second life i never i never fuck has a new version no i don't even know what that is second life it's a it was one of the first virtual worlds it's like a six but like you're gonna die yeah pretty quickly

But Facebook is coming out with a new version that is very similar to Second Life. And people live in this shit. And then Animal Crossing is just really popular. What is Animal Crossing? It's a Nintendo Switch game. And you can customize your avatar and design your own village or space or city. And then people would come and you can interact with them. But then people have been...

designing like uh designing clothing based on like designer brands so you have like off off white what or uh you know cool like uh skate brands yeah independent brands and then they um

it's become like a thing. Yeah. Yeah. And, and there's a lot of money in this because, um, like some of the, I know, like I remember second life, that was like Linden labs, I think, or something like that. And what happens is like you build stuff in there and stuff takes time. There's a physical, like there's a model, like there's an engine right in the, in the game. And so you're building stuff over time and you can negotiate and you can, it's basically, you can do stuff like in the real world cause you have people and then stuff in that virtual world starts happening.

acquiring value. - Value, right. - And then it's almost like Bitcoin. - Yeah, that's the whole thing with video games. - It's the conversion economy. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then let's say that I wanna buy this whatever outfit.

And then I buy the outfit. And then companies like whatever, like clothing companies that could then go into the game and have their own characters that have really cool shit. It's marketing for them. Yeah, it'd be like branding. Marketing and marketing. People are spending thousands and thousands of dollars on these video games, buying outfits or weapons or whatever, like upgrades to their characters because it is important to them. People who are really...

consumed by these video games, these themes become extremely important. - Well, and it's part of their identity, 'cause imagine in the real world, we were just talking about back in the day, people on Match.com had a stigma, but imagine like people now in our modern world, we're not really connecting, we're getting less and less connected, and then they have a virtual identity, and in that virtual identity, they're like a fucking badass. - They're the fucking man. - They're the fucking man, and then in the real world, they're like shit.

it's a fantasy well that's yeah that's but it's real but it's not a fantasy it's actually real because the people in the game are engaging with it yeah which makes it real yeah right it makes it real because if yeah it's like ready player one yeah yeah yeah yeah ready player one like if you were just on your own doing it it wouldn't be real that's true because other real people are engaging with you in this yeah and living like on that same frequency with you it becomes very real like we could keep talking about this all day but what are we going to do about it

Should we start up something? Let's do it, bro. Should we kind of jump ahead a little bit? Like you guys are the creatives. I'll help from the back end. You know, Eric can help from the retail end. You just quit your current job, right? Everyone, yeah, just quit that company, Eric. Yeah. So on that note, we're going to...

Start a virtual. I do think it's fascinating and just like kind of a note to note to group self is that let's start talking more about technology trends and like media trends and let's start getting some more folks on the show like Adrian. Yeah. That sparks that conversation because like

Like it's fascinating. I didn't think the conversation would go in this direction. No, but like what Adrian is doing now on his own is like he's searching for that next thing, right? That next way of looking at it, next angle of looking at it, which we all should because obviously something is going to happen.

Like obviously it's going to happen with or without us. Things are going to evolve. Things are going to change. Things are going to progress. And it's just whether or not we're in tune with that or not. Like that's on us. And open-minded. I just thought of a great idea. We need to create the virtual version of...

Yong Fulu back in the day. Hey, why the fuck not, man? There's a built-in demand for that already. Think about that for a second, right? What does that mean, right? So you check into this platform or application where you have a virtual version of yourself where you have access to unique food that's only there, unique amount of people and music and culture that is only within this app that you can be a part of. Right. And you can go to shelter.

You can go to M2. You can go to different places and hang out. I mean, I think it makes sense. Honestly, it makes sense. But I do want to pull back for one second and kind of like relink it back to you, me, me, your platform that you've been working on. So one of the aspects that from what I remember when you first talked to me about it

is that besides it being an e-commerce platform, besides supporting independent companies or international brands selling their goods, part of the interesting, like for me, what was interesting about it was like self-built KOL, right? So it's like,

you know, based off of, let's say I'm a shopper on it, I'm picking things, I'm favoriting things, I'm putting things, you know, in my shopping cart. And then if other people like my friends were, you know, come on, come onto the platform and see the things that I've been looking at, they can see the things that I've been looking at and stuff like that. Right. So it's almost, almost like, well, based off of your circle of friends or people that you follow, you can kind of,

If they're good taste makers, then you can kind of look at what they're shopping and kind of tag along. But there's so much data there to be harvested. Well, that was the one idea that you guys, you were playing with. So, I mean, to me, that's pretty interesting. That's an interesting feature. So that's definitely still one of the big premises of Yumi. But the thing with building an e-commerce platform is,

with a really small team is that there's so many like fundamental core commerce things you have to build and the feature of using affiliates is more of a scaling feature. So we're not quite there yet. But when I first had that conversation with you, maybe two years ago, you know, social commerce was

Like no one knew what that was. And the idea of KOLs or opinion leaders was massive. And that's actually changed a lot in the last two years where social commerce is kind of

Become the norm and it's actually 30% of all e-commerce in China now and then the new term that just came out Last year became popular last year was ko C. Oh, which is key opinion customer consumer Yeah, what is that? Basically? It's like it's that very idea is that you don't need to be a so-called

or to be an opinion leader, you can be a regular person. So if you're a consumer or if you're a customer of a brand or a consumer of a brand, as long as you are able to influence maybe a smaller community or network circle of friends and then get some sort of reward for it because we know we can track the ROI on that. So that means that

So basically it's an evolution of the concept of KOL being this high celebrity level opinion leader figure to anyone can be an opinion leader. It's like a long tail... Yeah, it's like the long tail of influence. Yeah, and then if you...

You could pretty much build software to just keep track of. So instead of having five KOLs or whatever the number would be, you had a thousand of these guys and then you could track their influence. And maybe each of them was only influencing 500 people. Exactly. And then you start aggregating that long tail. Right. I mean, that's where I see e-commerce going in general globally. China is just way...

more advanced with that. But then if you look at Instagram, for example, right? Instagram now has native checkouts and native shops. So you can buy directly on Instagram. And once Instagram allows anyone to tag their photos on

with products and then if you make that sale, you get a little commission from it. Then they have this-- - Is that something that they're really rolling out right now? - I mean, they haven't announced it, but this is where I see-- - That's huge. You would think WeChat would follow something similar, right? WeChat, I mean, WeChat has all the infrastructure. - Yeah, so that's basically what we've been building for WeChat. And they already have, they have a thing called Haowuchen.

which is kind of similar. I mean, there's a lot of different...

and different platforms that are exploring very similar themes. We're one of them. That is fascinating because like there's an app called, have you heard of House? No. H-O-U-Z-Z. And it's like a... Oh, I think I've got some emails from them. Multi-billion dollar company. And it started like it's a couple of like Israeli, American, I can't remember. But anyways, it's a really cool app. I just use it because you can see there's like millions of photos of like people's houses. And...

you can go into, you can sort by living room, kitchen, all the different parts of your house. And then you can see incredible designs and it's categorized by all different modern, contemporary, blah, blah, blah, right? And then when you go into the room, there's little green tags and you click on the green tag and then you can either buy that particular sofa or table

Or it's smart and actually automatically finds all of the similar sofas. And it aggregates that. But imagine what you were saying. I don't know if this exists. So we're so photo-based right now, right? I mean, the iPhone cameras, all these cameras. We take pictures of fucking everything. We're a visual culture, right? And imagine you could look into any photo

anywhere on WeChat or Instagram and you saw something that someone was wearing and you're like, that's fucking cool. You press a button and then like Alibaba sends it to your house in like one hour. Like even something in the background that you were like, oh, what is that? I think the closest thing is Taobao. Taobao, right? Well, Taobao has the image search. Image search. Instagram now has tagging of images to a native checkout. Pinterest has...

tagging of images and then they'll show you similar products. So it's not just the product but like similar products to the one in the photo. So I think this is definitely where we're heading. Well, I think, I mean, I don't know because I'm not, I have no idea on the technical side, but I would think in order to do that, it would have to like to give you even suggested things that you might like based on something that's in a picture.

it would have to have stored a bank of like so much data to even facilitate something like that, right? So like, I'm going to open up a whole can of worms here, but like, is there a line to be towed in terms of like,

privacy and like there's obviously lately there's this heightened sense of like sensitivity to privacy these days. You know, we've seen, you know, like Mark Zuckerberg on Facebook and congressional hearings and things like that. Like, is there a line to be towed there? Or do you feel like in terms of commerce, it's not as big of a deal?

in terms of things you like, because you're not really getting into maybe people's personal lives. It's more just like objects. What do you think? Yeah, you go first. What do you think, Adrian? Well, I think in China, I think we're...

a little more open to the trade-off between privacy and convenience. - Yeah, I think people's general mentality here is much more accepted to that, right? - Yeah, so I think in China we just want our fast delivery. We don't give a fuck, right? - Take my information. - Take my information, exactly. But yeah, I mean, you actually have way more regulation around privacy in Europe and the US than in China.

So I think people would have more of a backlash towards data scraping or data collection. And maybe that's why China's way more advanced in terms of e-commerce. So you think that mentality in China has actually helped the progression of technology here kind of move faster in a way? Because there is less backlash from the public? Yeah, definitely. I mean, we use digital currency. Yeah.

And digital currency is just, you know, one of the benefits for the owners of that currency is they can track every single transaction. Yeah. So there would be, I mean, you know, in other countries, there would be a huge backlash against that. And there already is with like Libra. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a big thing, right? With Libra.

And then, but here. Or even sovereign currency. So, China's about to launch its own sovereign digital currency. Oh, yeah? What's that about? So, the whole thing with like Bitcoin and things like that. It's basically like a R&B version. Of Bitcoin, right? Yeah. Really? Digital cryptocurrency? Well, you're big into crypto. Crypto or? Yeah.

i mean are you still into crypto no no not really i haven't followed it well but i remember when we were talking about it this guy was the biggest crypto advocate for a while right so what's going on the way i know how is we always get into like these kind of uh so it was it was you that influenced this man into crypto hobbies and we'll be really into it for like six months to a year

which included crypto and darts. Yeah, for backstory, we were on the same darts team. Oh, you were doing darts with him? Yeah. Oh, okay. And then we also, during darts, we would be racking about crypto and shit like that. Well, that's a whole different thing that we can have a whole different podcast on, I guess, crypto. But, I mean, I don't know. The future seems very bright, but also a little bit scary all at the same time.

But like I think it's just where you stand like it's just what your outlook is like some people want to take a very pessimistic view on it and think about like the dangers and and we know I don't blame them like you know I think about like the all like the threats I guess of like technology but then you have like the general sentiment here which is more like very relaxed and open with it and like a lot more acceptive of like

like of technology like helping people's daily lives because like we've witnessed it here living in China like our lifestyle here is so much more convenient now because of technology but it's also because we're much more lax about our privacy you know I mean in general here we are outsiders we're not like you know Chinese nationals so we just kind of go with the flow you know we're here so we go with the flow but

I mean, if you're a Chinese national, I mean, in general, like you just kind of said, it's like in general, it's okay. But there's a trade off. And, but this, this is a pendulum that keeps swinging and in light of like the current epidemic or pandemic. And if we were to take a kind of, you know, um, forecast things a little bit and say, okay, like this COVID thing is going to have a lasting impact, right. At least for a few years.

It's gonna have a ripple effect through the way we think about privacy. Because we have...

traded some of our, you know, privacy to be safe. I mean, countries like Korea, like China, even the U S they are making that trade off. And so I think that's going to kind of influence some of these conversations. And I think the other piece with the shopping is like, like the, the, the notion that like your photos, right? So there's a social, there's a notion that you're participating in a social conversation. And so, um,

By doing so, you're opting in to this conversation and it's not private anymore because these photos are now being uploaded. So just by the kind of the conditions of the platform, a lot of these things, you're basically opting in to saying that, okay, it's okay to use that information because of the social nature of it. You kind of have to, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

I just think it's just gonna continue down this path. I mean, more and more. I think it's gonna accelerate it. It's gonna, like everything is accelerating. It's accelerating now. Like all this shit, like I was talking to, remember Rich? We had him on the show so I was face- De Forno? Yeah, Rich De Forno and Claudia. Yep. And I was just catching up with him this morning and

the you know we're talking a little bit about covet and and they're in l.a right now yeah they're in l.a but like california like so basically i'll give you the the um the nutshell but so things are getting much better in california like the social distancing like people have they're staying home like i mean you never thought that people could sort of behave themselves in the way that people here kind of did when things first broke out and like people don't go out social distance everyone's wearing a mask depends where though

Yeah, I'm talking to California. So generally, Rich thinks that they've done a pretty good job. Things are getting better. And this whole thing with this freelance economy and agents that we talked about earlier. So their life hasn't really changed because they were freelancers to begin with. And so a lot of the work is going offline. So they're actually enjoying it. He doesn't have to fucking deal with traffic. He doesn't have to get road rage like all this shit. So generally, it's good. Except for the stress, the mental stress of knowing that the country and the world is kind of suffering a little bit.

but generally it's like pretty good. And then we were talking about, think about like Detroit, right? Random place, but Detroit in the seventies and the sixties, like that was like fucking the king of the U S and then, you know, Japanese automakers came in, put like, you know, like put a lot of duress on the U S car makers in that city, went down the tubes a little bit. Right. And it just got really run down and they're trying to revitalize, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, that slow death or

or decay happened over a period of like decades. Now COVID comes boom, like wiping out like civilizations, like in different places, you can't adapt. This is like, we're talking, this is like natural selection. There's going to be a huge bias towards certain industries and it's going to accelerate it. Yeah. And this is a bit of a survival of the fittest. Scary. Yeah. Yeah. Have you, um, I mean, we're going to wrap this up soon, but like, um,

because like what you were talking just now about Eric, especially as it pertains to the United States,

And in terms of like looking at technology and like the future impacts of technology and how to protect people from this and at the same time grow with it. So it's not anti-technology, but it's like we know this is coming. We know it's going to evolve. We know it's going to be a much more bigger part of our daily lives and economy. So how do we grow with it and evolve with it? Like have you heard about like Andrew Yang in the United States? Yeah, of course.

Like, um, like with UBI and like all his stances on technology, like, like is that automation? Yeah. Automation. Is that something like, is that something that aligns with your own personal thoughts? Yeah. I mean, I, I'm all for technology basically, um, being able to enable us, give us the tools to become better. And, um,

I mean, you have to embrace it. There's no way to go backwards. There's nothing you can do. You have to. Well, I'm just putting this up because like... As long as you embrace it and then try to work with it

you're moving forward. There's no way to go backwards. Unless you basically go into complete and total isolation. Right? And go off the grid. Well, at the danger of sounding, which I already do, sounding super pro-Andre Yang because I always find any chance to bring him up. But I'm only bringing him up now because even though he's completely run... He dropped out of the presidential candidate. He's not a thing. He works for CNN. But like...

Now on the media you see a lot of people coming out in support of a lot of the values that he was an ideas that he was Fighting for during his presidential run his presence a campaign things such as UBI So now you have a lot of the mainstream. What's UBI universal basic income, right? Right and So now you have a lot of even his critics on on the media that were Criticizing him for these ideas are now supporting him from those very same ideas. I

So this seems to be like this huge flip-flop because of the COVID-19 virus. Right. That people are like, people are like kind of be like, oh, well, you know, he was right. Like we should adopt these things. So it's like this huge flip-flop. This is like weird to see, you know? Yeah. I mean, probably because a lot of the concepts that he was talking about were mainly theoretical or future forecast. And then now with COVID, like,

it's just sort of accelerated into that. Like automation is just way more important now. All of a sudden it's become real for a lot of people. Yeah. In a situation where like workers can't go to the warehouse and Amazon still needs to ship. Right. They have to adopt automation. Yeah. All right. Well, you guys have anything else?

No, man. I think we can talk further after this podcast. We need to brainstorm with you, Adrian, about a lot of ideas that came up during this podcast. But Adrian, thank you for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. I had a lot of fun on this conversation. Really interesting conversation. Yeah, it really was. It opened up a can of worms that we're going to continue to talk about.

Cheers. We went kind of all over the place. We did, but that's how the podcast goes, man. That's how a natural conversation actually goes. We've got to continue brainstorming and see what's going on. Justin, do you forgive me for not drinking? No, never forgiven. Never forgiven. I'm deleting your audio from this podcast when I publish it anyway. That's right. I'm going to be airbrushed out. Anyway, thank you guys for listening. Thank you, Adrian, for coming on the show. Thank you. I'm Justin. I'm Howie.

I'm not on the show. Yeah, you're not on the show, Eric. All right. Good luck, you, Eric. Peace, guys. We love you. Bye. Bye. Bye.