#38. Jenny Chen: Resting B*tch Face
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us at thehonestdrink at gmail.com. And if you've been enjoying the show, you know what to do. Go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. Now, our guest today is the co-founder of Strike Muay Thai Gym in Shanghai. Obviously, that's a kickboxing gym. Strike Muay Thai was the first Muay Thai gym to open in Shanghai 12 years ago and has since trained some of Hollywood and China's

biggest celebrities as they prepare for roles internationally. Our guest, she is not only a gym owner, but a very ambitious and hardworking entrepreneur with her hands in several different projects and businesses. She is also a host on her own cooking show called Jenny and G. Now, in this episode, we begin talking about some of her struggles running the gym. Then, in typical Honest Drink fashion, we get pretty personal with her.

exploring what it's like to be young and single. We dig into dating and relationships. We talk about certain Chinese stigmas, like why do guys carry purses for their wives or girlfriends? We talk about mistresses in China. And FYI, if you don't know, the word mistress in Chinese is called xiao san.

And we also go on to explore mentality differences between ABCs like myself and locals. This was a really fun and honest conversation. So without further ado, please welcome Jenny Chen.

American bourbon. That's the way to go. Anyway, Jenny, thank you for coming.

Hello guys. Hello. This has been a long time in the making for you to come here, huh? Yeah, I'm very excited. How are you? How has it been? Good. Very busy. What have you been busy with lately?

I just like Reconstruction the gym We added like Four more heavy bags In my gym And you know I'm trying to Do some You know Woman Muay Thai class Yep Start next month So I was preferring this

I feel like my circle of friends now are all like gym owners. Yeah, I just thought that as well. And that's so weird because it never used to be the case. But now like everyone around my circle are like gym owners. So for the listeners who don't know, Jenny is the owner of Strike Muay Thai here in Shanghai. Obviously, it's a Muay Thai gym.

And you guys have been going on for a very long time, right? Yeah. How many years now? Actually, the original since 2008. Okay. And so now it's 12 years. So what is that like being a woman running a Muay Thai gym in Shanghai? Very tough, you know, because first I'm a girl.

And actually it's not many gym in Shanghai, especially for Muay Thai. And this industry, actually to be honest, we don't really have that much competition. Okay. So...

um but you know all the dream owners are you know guys so i you know pretty how to say stress about that because you know i'm not a professional fighter i'm just a girl who like muay thai and i just love fitness so uh

When I first time walking in the gym, I wasn't a gym owner, you know, back then, six years ago. But after I, you know, joined this club and be a student, and I actually work one year for the part-time reception girl in the old gym. Reception girl. Reception girl. Yes, for part-time for one year when I was 21. Okay.

And then I just feel like, oh, I really love this gym. And I feel like it's my second home. It's my, how to say, shelter. You know, sometimes if I have, you know, heartbroken or have stress, I just went there. No matter, I was, I was living actually three hours away.

I go then back to my place. But I still go training at least five days a day. A total three-hour commute from back and forth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I take subway, I have to walk 20 minutes from the subway to the gym. But that was my power. You know, the gym gave me this, how do you say, magic. You know, they make me a better self.

and make me more confident and stronger. So that's why I have no matter what, how tired I was, I have to go to gym and even just sitting there see people training, it make me feel more, you know, happier. So after one year, one and a half year, I decided to become a gym partner. So I invested the gym.

So now for me, it's almost four years to have this gym. - Wow. So before you were kind of alluding a little bit to, you think it's tougher as a woman to run a gym? Really? - To be honest, in the beginning, nobody believes, like they would be surprised. They were surprised actually, like, "Oh, what? Jenny become the, you know, who running this gym?" And they don't really give a shit.

But after a few years, I think I really worked very, very, very hard. So I actually proved myself that I can stand there in this Muay Thai gym industry in Shanghai. I am going to be the best one. The best one. The best gym you're talking about. The best Muay Thai gym. Yes, I think we already are because now we...

we just started work with this French coach. Actually, he's just 21, but he has so much talent. So we just like bring him to our gym as the head coach. And now our business is really going up. And there's more and more members, you know, looking for us. So even during this COVID-19, we still open and, you know,

we got more followers and members, which I wasn't that surprised, to be honest. I just feel like this is the place where people...

searching for. Can I say this? Yeah. They're looking for such a place like this. They can feel, you know, relaxed and they can find themselves. So this gym isn't just a Muay Thai gym, but it's a second home. It's a shoulder for lots of people in this city because we needed this community. Okay. Why I joined this gym business is just because

I see these opportunities and the talent, the potential of this gym because the community.

Yeah, our members from all over the world. You can find anywhere, you know, people from anywhere. You can find any country, you know, those people just in our gym. And they from also all of different industries. They work like doctor, you know, lawyers, banker, like actors.

So it's very interesting. So your members are just all different types of people doing all different types of things. But I think a lot of gyms are like that, right? Yeah. But from a business perspective, I mean, the gym's got to be hard running a gym right now in Shanghai, right? All the gyms are suffering. It's true. But to be honest, for me, I'm pretty relaxed now.

because I was actually suffering for years in this business and I finally started to know how it works. How does it work? Um...

This is a secret. Anyway, I wish it become better. Actually, I do have a question because you were saying that as a woman, it was a bit of a struggle at first, right? With people not understanding or not getting why you're doing it. But do you have any like particular stories of struggles, like particularly that happened to you that really pissed you off or really made you have that fire? Oh,

To be honest, I never really pissed off. Okay. You know, no matter what people say, I don't really piss off, you know, because I know who I am. I know what I'm doing, so I don't have to explain. So, yeah, I don't have this experience. Okay. But anything that happened that maybe not necessarily you got pissed off, but...

that you know just for the listeners to kind of understand some of the difficulties as a woman entrepreneur doing you know I just think of one it's my I can't say it's my ex-trainer my ex-head coach in gym so he was also a very professional fighter but you know it's very hard to lead it's because

If I tell him to do something, he would say, hey, Jenny, you're not professional. You know, you don't know how to fight. So he's kind of not really listening. So it's very hard to me to manage, you know, fighters in the gym. But after I'm learning also, so I now, you know, just...

get better in the business well that that that to me just sounds like um he had an issue with you not being a professional having not been a professional fighter yeah but i don't think it was really an issue of your gender right i think it's also because of a gender and maybe age because of one i that's true yeah i was i'm much younger than the damn actually and

I'm a girl so I think if today I'm a man it's different situation I think really you think that I think so yeah even if you weren't a professional fighter but a man of your a young young young guy not professional fighter you think you would still have run into the same problems

Not that much problem, but little. There's a problem. Well, you're involved in other businesses too, right? The gym is just one thing. Yeah. You're doing other things. You got a cooking show. You're a busy entrepreneur. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're involved in a lot of other businesses here. So what's that landscape like as a young... I mean, you're significantly younger than we are. And you seem to be a very motivated person.

In Shanghai, and especially with the atmosphere and kind of buzz around Shanghai in terms of entrepreneurship and startups in general lately in the past few years, where do you see yourself in that landscape? And how do you view yourself? And what are the struggles you feel you have to overcome to be successful? The first one is...

never give a shit of what others tell you. Just don't listen to others. If people tell you that you're not good, you just ignore it. You don't take this serious. Because I was suffering for this many, many years, even from my friendship, my family. In my whole life, nobody really tell me like, oh, Jenny, you're good.

Actually, no. Really? Yeah. Since I was young, like since I was a kid,

Nobody. Nobody. No one ever really gave you any positive support? Nope. Really? Just no. I don't know why. Maybe, but I don't believe. Okay. Where do you think you get that strength from? I mean, that takes a lot of strength, especially growing up. First, I'm not good at school. Okay. I am actually pretty sucks at school. I think no teachers likes me, you know, my whole life.

So it's just because I don't like, you know, study at school, but I like study by myself, you know, reading, you know, I always have lots of, I have lots of hobbies. You know, I interesting a lot of things, but just not in the school. So that make me a bad student. So that's why, okay, maybe my parents, you know,

know about this, they think, you know, all my family, and they think, okay, you are maybe stupid. So that's why, very obviously. But this is, I mean, this goes a little bit to a conversation I think we had a long time ago, was like, because you keep, you say this happened for your whole life, and, you know, no one really, everyone kind of like talks shit about you or whatever and doesn't support you. So how much of it do you feel that it's real, right?

I'm not saying it's not real, okay? But how much of it is, do you feel like is actually that the case? Or how much of it is maybe your own insecurities, you know? I think half-half. I think sometimes I take people, you know, wrong. I think sometimes they don't mean it, but I think this way. I obviously have problem because everyone has a problem. This is my, you know, maybe, yeah, maybe I was insecure. I'm not sure about myself.

that was the past. Okay. But now I think I always, you know, accept the world. Okay. People, if they think I'm not good, I wouldn't take like a hundred percent, but maybe half. I have to think why it happened, why he say this. Right. But yeah, half half as you think. Well, because I've, I can relate to that mentality. I used to,

I used to feel like, you know, like people were like talking shit about me and like you. Yeah, I used I used to feel that way. There was a there was a point in time in my life where I almost felt that way.

And then the older I get, I realize most of that, sometimes it's real. Sometimes it is real. - It is, yeah. - But most of the time, I found out from my case that it was just all bullshit. It was really not real. And even if it was, what you say is you don't give a shit. You don't really put your energy towards that kind of thing. But a lot of it is really just in your head because once you adopt that mentality and you become wired to be very sensitive to these things,

you start reacting to things that or misreading things that aren't the case and you take them as attacks you take them as criticism when they're just not you know so i i can relate to that keep living in la la land justin you said you said to me once like you like like you're so special that people will want to talk about you right and i was like but it's true it's like who am i like what is my what does that say about my ego

That I would think that everyone wants to talk shit about me, right? Like it's stupid. Do you think it's because you were cocky? I can see your face. I think you were a cocky person. Oh my God. Do I look cocky? I get that a lot. I do. I get that a lot. I get that a lot. And it always blows my mind where that comes from. Because inside, if you really know me, I am honestly, I'm the least cocky person.

Like I have insecurity, I have self-esteem issues. I have all these things just like a lot of people do.

So I am the least cocky. I don't find, but I have, many people have thought in first impression of me that I was a cocky person. I have gotten that repeatedly in the past. I've shared this story the first time I met him in China in 2010. I saw him. Yeah, I saw him and I was like meeting everybody and everyone's so friendly. I see this motherfucker and I'm like, who the fuck is this guy? He's a cocky motherfucker. I don't want to talk to him.

I didn't like your ass either, man. We didn't like each other the first time we met, actually. First couple times. It's pretty normal, actually. Yeah? But I... Misjudge. You know, that's all it is. But I can see people might think the same thing about you. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I can see that. It's just because of my look, right? Yeah, they might think you're a little cocky, a little bitchy, right? Yes.

I feel like the first impression, maybe that's what people think of you. But once they get to know you, they understand like actually. Well, there's this joke, right? So I'm not making fun at all. But there's this joke called the resting bitch face. You ever heard about that? Actually, no. You never heard about that? Okay, so there's this joke with some other friends I have.

And we have this one friend that she's like, yeah, I have a resting bitch face. And she knows it. And everybody always says that about her. But she's sweet. She's a real nice girl. But, you know, she has the resting bitch face. What does it mean? Some people just have a look. Like, they just... Like, their natural look is just bitchy. Like, angry face. Yeah, or like... Not angry, but just the bitch face.

You know what I mean? I'm also angry face. You have a resting bitch face. You do have a resting bitch face. And also angry face. You know, people... Well, that's where the bitch comes from, right? Yeah. I'm telling you, there's one story seven years ago when I was hanging out with a bunch of people and there's one girl just came to me and, you know, she's hanging out with us and then she came to me and I was just standing there, you know, holding my drink and relaxed. So when I relax, my face looks pretty angry, you know? And I'm like,

And then she's asking me like, Jenny, are you angry? Actually, she's angry. She's real angry. And she asked me, are you angry? And I just suddenly wake up because, you know, my mind wasn't in that place, you know. I was like, no, I'm not. But when she asked this, I'm actually pretty angry. I don't know, like always misstanding. Yeah. Maybe they're weak. Maybe they're weak, no? Well, I think this is just... I mean, just some people are just born with a certain look and sometimes that look is, you know...

people have a preconceived notion to what that look is. You know, for example, like I always get, like my mother, my family members and some friends, when I was younger, I was like, I'm going to get some tattoos. And they're like, Howie, you shouldn't get tattoos. You have a guai guai lian. You know? Bu shi he ni. You know what I mean? And I'm like, what? Are you kidding me? Me? And you do. Yeah, see, exactly. Baby face. Yeah, baby face. Exactly. That's why you need a tattoo. Just right on your, like, Tekashi 69. Just right on your forehead, man.

But no, but that is like a lot of people have like a resting dumb face, right? Like a lot of people like their natural face just looks like they look like they're dumb, right? But like they're just really intelligent. I have that a little bit. Like when I'm my resting face. Oh, yeah. I think so. Yeah.

You are. Oh, yeah. Little bit. Oh, damn, you bitch. Yes, you. Yeah, I know I do, right? I have like a resting dumb face. I get that a lot. Like my default look is just like a little bit dumb, right? So, but then that goes to, that's just how people react to people. And, you know, everyone to a certain degree, and we mention this all the time, is that there is this degree of like judging a book by its cover, right? You judge people by your immediate reaction.

look at them. And then you come to, whether you are conscious of it or not, you come to all these conclusions in your mind already built in, in you. And a lot of times you just don't notice, but you already formed a lot of judgments on people before even getting to know them or even talking to them sometimes. So, I mean, I don't know, like that's just life. And I think everyone goes through that.

to some degree. I mean, some people just have a really beautiful face. Well, I'm just curious. I'm just curious. With that resting bitch face, people think you're always angry. Do you find that hard to date? Like, like finding dates or anything like that? I think they, I think sometimes they got scared. Really? Yeah. Like guys are afraid to approach you? Because some male friend tell me this.

Because they're guys, so they tell me the same. They say maybe because you're single like almost forever is because your face looks very cold. Or maybe you have this, you know. You need a little love.

I don't know. I know people that actually are very attracted to the bitchy face. Really? Yeah. Sure. Like Rich. Remember Rich? Oh, yeah. That's his thing. That's his fetish. That's true. Yeah. He loves bitchy looking women. Really? Yeah. Maybe I'm not really bitchy. Well, you're not. You're not bitchy at all. But you do have a little bit of resting bitch face, right? Yeah. How long have you been single now?

Seven years. Wow. Jesus. Seven years single, huh? Well, I think one thing, I mean, because, you know, unless the listeners are watching the video, you know, once they get to know you, once anybody gets to know you, like, you're a sweetheart. You're a really nice girl. But...

You're very 直接 . You're very straightforward. Yes. Right? So I think that's why some people may think that, oh, she's angry or she's like, or she's a bitch or whatever, because you're just straightforward. She's just coarse. You know, you just tell it how it is. And I think that's really good. Some people are very scared of that, maybe, you know. Because you're strong. Maybe, yeah. Because you're strong and you're smart. But, you know...

99% people. But you know, yeah, you make sense. Well, is that maybe that speaks a little bit of something to like your standards though? My standards or which part? Because you have a lot of guys, I'm sure you have a lot of guys chasing after you, right? Like, I mean, if you're watching the video, obviously you're a very attractive woman, right?

So like, what is it? Like, why? Like, it's to me, well, maybe I'm being a little biased because I'm coming from a male perspective. And Shanghai historically has been known to be like a guy, a man's playground, you know? Yeah. So for me, it's mind boggling that you could go seven years being single unless you tried very hard to go seven years being single. You know what I mean? Mm hmm.

Like to me, Shanghai is an easy place to meet people and date. Trust me, I tried. I tried to get to know someone, but it's just not working. Why? I think it's because of, I mean, I have my problem too because I was not that strong, maybe. And I was, you know, when I was younger, I just don't know what I want. I didn't know what I want. And I'm struggling in business.

it wasn't that good you know and I was just like insecure if my work isn't that good

I'm just, you know, I don't want to go out. I don't want to see people. This is my thing. So sometimes I try to explain to guys that what I've been through. But, you know, just I couldn't find the time to say it. So I just keep it to myself. So it's make it worse. So nobody, you know, have chance to know me.

Why is that? Because you're just not going on dates or are you going on dates but it's just nothing is coming from those dates? Like what is the situation? I think in this few years I going on few dates like two, three.

In few years? In seven years? Yeah. That's not a lot. Two, three, two, three. Two, three dates in seven years? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very little. What the fuck? Come on. Because I think, yeah, yeah. Is this not a priority for you or? I have my standards and I'm very hardly, I'm very, very difficult to have feelings with someone.

But that's why actually I'm pretty 主动 is because I'm very hard to find someone I like. So every time if I see someone I like, I'm very like 主动, you know, I'm just like, I will. I was like, hey, do you want to hang out or something like this? And what are you doing today? I would always

I love to do that because, you know, I have to catch what I want. So you have no problems chasing the guy? I have definitely no problem. Wow, that's rare. That's great. Yeah, that's awesome. I love it. Hey, 真的是很少。 It's very rare. Really? Yeah. I didn't know, but... I think like...

In Shanghai, the usual mentality for girls is like, oh, he's the guy, I'm the girl, he's supposed to chase me. Yeah. Right? Like, he's supposed to be the 主动该. Because I think I have actually 蛮多 chasing. So I think I just think it's normal. So I don't feel like it's something, you know, interesting. You know what I mean? Can I say this? Yeah, you can say that. I'm so honest. But it's true. Like, you know...

I'm just talking the truth. Like I don't think you know, I'm not okay Okay, it's like I told you last time if like some girls guys chasing them and they think he's okay Then he just you know go with him, you know, maybe have a dinner or something But I mean you cannot like say yes to anyone, right? So what are your standards then my standard, you know for a guy? Yeah, actually pretty hard to find

So, but what are your standards? Like, what's, what's like, like just to go on a date, I'm not saying to marry or, or, or, you know, boyfriend girlfriend, but like for a guy to even have a chance of, let's say dating you. Good question.

What are your standards? What's like the basic 门槛? 必须的 How do you say 气质? Like he has to be good 气质 The esteem? Like confidence? Stature? He has to be confident How he holds himself, right? He have to be confident He have to have this, you know, guts

But not cocky though, right? Not like overly confident. 气质你太过于有气质,可能 maybe 会感觉有点 cocky. Like you're too full of yourself. 气质 is not confidence. 气质 is like this aura about them. Like an elegance. If you say like a 女孩子有气质, it's like they're very elegant. Elegant, something like this. And he has to be like, maybe cocky, but in a smart way.

You know, not stupid. Not cocky to be cocky. Because some people are cocky because they don't have confidence. They have to act like they're cocky. It's a different thing. They can be cocky, but they have to be able to back up that cockiness. Yeah. They know what to say. I think what she's trying to say is natural confidence is...

Yeah. Swag. Cheats is swag, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Swag. Because I feel like I think what she's trying to say is that, yes, you'll see these people that they think they're confident because let's say, oh, I have muscles or I'm confident because I have money or I'm confident because of whatever. But that's not real confidence. That's just telling themselves they're confident. But some people are just naturally confident because they don't give a shit. Yeah. So that's the I think the difference. Okay. Yeah.

It's like you love yourself. It's not because, you know, what you have. It's because who you are. You know, these things. It's very least people have it.

- Yeah, I agree. - It's a natural built-in confidence and it's not based on things that you've surrounded yourself with or an identity you feel like you have, right? - You can feel like in Shanghai, it's very normal. It's like lots of guys, they gather together, hang out to a club and try to get girls.

And some of the guys... They do? That's new to me. Ask yourself. That's new to me. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. So it's like they get together and they go to a club, right? And some of them, actually, they don't have confidence, but because they have cool friends, so they feel like, I'm something tonight. You know, I'm someone. I can get girls. But if they were on their own, they'd be like...

Yes. And they would try to call their friends like, hey, you should go out today, you know, something like that. Well, it's actually a very like primal behavior, right? It's like, for example, when you go out to the clubs, especially here, well, actually it's...

everywhere in the world right it's like i'm popping bottles right oh i have all these but they hide they hide behind like the table and the bottles and the vip service me like well i'm gonna be cheap i'm like this big shot yeah well that's what she's talking about it's like they're puffing the chest but then maybe what she's trying to look for is the guy that doesn't need to puff their chest because they know that they're confident already i a thousand percent agree with you and i can probably speak for how we he we all feel the same way but

can we really blame the guys who are showy and want to, because like historically, look, in this culture, it has been very materialistic. You know, historically girls have been, you know, a little bit materialistic seeing kind of like, okay, what do you have? Like how much can you spend and what can you buy for me? And, you know, there is a little bit of that, right? Historically, much less so now today, I feel, but-

In days past there has been that element to it. So I think it's maybe conditioned guys to be like well if I want to find a girl I have to uh peacock, you know peacocking the english term is called peacocking It's like showing your colorful feathers like a bird, right? I have to show you all everything I got how much I can spend how much I earn, you know Like look at my like gucci loafers, right? Look at my car Look at me popping bottles in a club so

In one way is like I agree with you, but like the other end like I feel like many guys Especially the local guys here have been conditioned to to think that way. That's why I'm single Because you're different

I don't know. I hope I'm not single forever, you know. I'm still waiting, but... Well, let me ask you something because this is something that I've been thinking. I used to think about a lot. So, like, I mean, maybe, Justin, you can help attest to this because, you know, sometimes there are certain type of people, like you said, that peacock, right? Because they're like, well, I mean, certain type of girls attracted to that. And it's true. If those guys, peacock,

peacock and show off there are a certain type of girls very beautiful girls or whatever will come and be like oh hey how what's your name blah blah blah and they go into that get into that right but it's but it's those girls that maybe like you or maybe some other types out there that a little bit more you know maybe or maybe a little bit more it's a little bit more deeper like like it takes more substance a little more substance right but the but those same type of guys that don't do that maybe also

maybe have a little more substance as well. You know what I mean? And so it's okay. I think it's okay to do that. Yeah. You know what I mean? I think it's okay for the peacocking to happen and for those type of girls to go get into that. Don't you think? Yeah. And also like maybe it's harder for those type of people we're talking about that,

- I hate to say this, though we were saying substance, right? But I'm not trying to infer that other people who aren't, I say, yeah, don't have substance. Everyone has a little bit of substance. But the type of people we're talking about who don't care to peacock, don't care to be flashy and things like you that are thinking a little bit on a different layer, they won't be at the clubs in the first place. - That I was going to say is-- - So you don't have that playground to even meet. - Yeah, it's true.

It's true. So that's why no club, no clubbing. When's the last time you went clubbing? Anymore.

No, come on. No clubbing anymore except for yesterday. COVID-19, come on. Okay, the sadness, I have to tell you. I used to love to go club, very obviously. But since I was 22, I still go club sometimes. But I always find this emptiness and I find this sadness. Every time I just feel so sad.

I don't know. I just feel so sad. You know, after I get out of the club or even when I'm in the club, I see everybody dancing. They're so happy. And I don't know. I don't know why they're so happy. And I was kind of jealous. I want to be like that. I used to be like that. But someday it just stopped. So I don't know if... Why? Do you guys have any...

I grew up, maybe, maybe. So I just finally, you know, accept that. Okay, Jenny, your time is passed. You just cannot have fun anymore in the club. So, you know. But that's ridiculous though, because you're still, you're still quite young. Hey, that's weird. I'm telling you, when I was in US, I go to clubbing, I was so happy. So maybe it's just, you just needed the change of atmosphere. Yeah.

The city. Maybe you've been in Shanghai all your life. I'm Shanghainese, so that's why I get tired of it. So yeah, it's not about clubbing. It's just about where I am. Do you think Shanghainese girls have a different set of... In general, if we were to stereotype, because you being a Shanghainese girl all your life, right? Where do you feel... Because there's a certain stigma. There is, right?

There's a certain, okay. I know you're looking at me weird now, okay? But there's a certain stigma for Shanghainese girls in a lot of people's eyes. And the stigma is usually you see, okay, when you go out on the street, you see two couples and they're Shanghainese. You see the guy holding the purse, right? Oh, okay.

You know, you hear all these stories and they're true stories of like, you know, when you get married with a Shanghainese girl, she controls all the finances and she gives the husband an allowance of his own money. So he has like an allowance from the wife of the money that he's earning.

So It's funny right But it's true You can hear the bitter Like the anger Oh no That gets my That grinds my ears You can hear the anger In his voice That grinds my gears Like never in a million years Would I ever let that happen But I mean like I feel like Howie is okay with that You're okay with that right Okay with what Howie's a bitch Excuse me I mean like you're okay With like holding a purse right Are you kidding me You see Because you got a baby face Yeah No You should get tattoo Hell no

Nothing against it. Well, no, I do have something against it. As a matter of fact, I've literally, when I, there are times when I was younger, I would go to the guy and be like, and shake my head at them. I've done it. Like you will walk up to strangers holding a person, you just shake your head. I just shake my head and just keep walking. Like get your balls back. Yeah, like literally like, come on. No, I mean like you guys, okay? You guys, will you guys, if you guys get drunk after a club, you guys definitely will do that.

You know, after they get drunk. No, he's saying he'd do that sober. Like on the street. No, no, I'm saying shaking the head at people. Oh, shaking the head? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sober. Oh, you're talking about holding the purse? Yeah. No, I've never. I've never. I can say, when I'm drunk, I can hardly even stand up, let alone hold the purse. Unlike people in this room, unlike people in this room, I have never held a purse walking around normally. You're calling me out like that? Damn, bro. I've never. Unless that person is carrying like a heavy bag.

Or needs to tie the shoelaces so I can hold it from them for a second? Yeah, of course. No problem. But if we're just like walking around like la-di-da-di-da and just a regular purse, I don't know. I just feel like I don't want to hold your purse. But what if like you really love someone? Like you really love her. You don't want to... I can put that right back at them. Yeah.

it's like if you really love me why are you making me hold your purse no no okay because she loves to watch you hold her purse oh that's horrible many have asked me to hold the purse before really and and and my logic is that how dare them how dare them no no my logic is like like why did you buy the purse in the first place if it's so heavy you want me to hold you know i mean like you

You know, it's weird. It's weird. It's like me buying a suitcase and be like, here, you carry this all the time. Or me buying shoes for myself, but you wear them. You know what I mean? I don't know. It's weird. Those are bad analogies. It's culturalizing. Yeah, it's pretty bad. It's cultural. It's a power trip. It feels like a power trip. I think so. It's like, what would you do to prove your love to me? Or it's just like claiming this is mine. Like, this is my property. I don't know. Like, this man is my property now. Oh.

And here's the evidence of that for everyone to see. Like, this is mine now. It's like marking somebody. What do you think? No, no, you're the girl. Like, what do you think? I mean, I never do. Come on. You never talk about it with your friends?

You haven't done it because you haven't had a boyfriend for seven years. No, when I had a boyfriend... Today you have a boyfriend. I bet you're making him carry your purse. No, no, never, never, never, ever. First, I don't have a purse. I don't have a wallet, too. But anyway, I think... As you said, it's like a mark.

I think so yeah some girls they're insecure they have to you know maybe this girl you know he has she has a very handsome boyfriend I'm telling you a lot of handsome guys do this oh no I see a lot of sure they really like hold a purse for this girl I think it's a tricky I think so and she wants showing off sorry girls but you know I'm just be honest yeah

But I don't know. Maybe. So going back to the whole Shanghai girl stigma, do you find that true? Or do you think it's just bullshit? Half-half. Because time changes now. It's like we are different now, I think. So you think that's an old stigma and it's not as true today? I want to tell you one thing. Even Taiwanese girls, they do the same thing. Because I have these friends.

I don't think it's about the area because you know 我也去过二县城市 Yeah, it's not just Shanghai. I feel like they do it too. I think it's more about like what kind of 环境 environment that you grew up in and like and what you've like experienced 您的接触 right? So I think for more people for people who are a little bit more for lack of a better description international maybe will not tend to do that as much

I doubt it. I think. I think even for foreigner girls, it's the same. Because I really rarely see it in the foreign society. You should see some movie, they do the same. I mean, like I said, it's like... Or the Koreans do it. The Koreans. Yeah. Because you can hold something. Like, for example, my rule, and I've established this with my wife, it's like...

If you want me to hold something because it's too heavy or something like that, no problem. If you're shopping and there's like... Or we're shopping and there's like heavy stuff, no problem. I'll carry everything. Yeah. You know what I mean? But if it's a little purse... Like you're totally capable of carrying... This little thing that's not heavy and you want me to carry it because you're tired or... Then don't bring it out. It's a mark. But it's not only just about the heaviness. It's about like that is your accessory that you bought. You know? Like...

it's like you making me wear your earrings like why would i do that like like you bought them for you like you know like why would you yeah it's like oh i love these earrings they look so good on me but hey you have to wear them out it's like what like i said it's a mark as a power trip it's yeah it's it's like she she thinks she has this power to let you do anything for her yeah okay is it the same i'm just a question okay is it the same

As you know, some girls would say, well, the guy, if the guy gave, like moved his account, his financial account to me. So I'm controlling finances. You being the girl. Me being the girl, I'm controlling finances. That also proves that the guy loves me. I'd love to have that.

You would like to have that? If you want to, yeah. Well, of course. I won't say no. 有些人是这样子呀。 Some people are thinking that way. But I think... Okay, go on. I don't want to cut you off. Go on. I mean like it, but it's not... I don't think girl would really ask for that. Like maybe also half-half.

- I've heard about plenty of girls. - Really? - Yeah. - I don't know girls. - I feel like that's a very common thing. - You guys know girls. - But do you think it's less about like being having like a power trip when it comes to the financial thing, right? It's less about power trip, but it's more about like, if I control the funds and I give you a salary, there's no way you can have a . There's no way you can go out and have all these mistresses, which is also we know is a very common thing.

Because you don't have the money to pay for these mistresses. There's always a way to have a Xiao San, okay? Even he has no money, maybe this Xiao San would give him money. Now girls make a lot. You mean the Xiao San gives the guy money? Yeah. So the guy, yeah, my mind is going like, like the... Of course. No, because I'm thinking all these possibilities. I'm telling you, girl, I'm telling you, if you do this to your guy, it's more dangerous. Do you know why?

Because you bottle them up and they're going to want to rebel even more. No, it's because if that Xiao San finds out, she can be a good bitch. She can be like, oh, your wife, oh, your girlfriend, do this to you. She's such a control freak. But here you go. If you want maybe some help, you can come to me. Like, I'm not going to do that to you. I'm so much nicer to you. You're so much freer with me. Yeah, right? Think about it.

Interesting. Think about it. I'm going to ask you a very personal question. Okay. Has anyone ever tried to make you their Xiaosan? Yes. Really? Yeah. Actually, it's just, you know, yeah. And just for the listeners in the West who don't know what a Xiaosan is, a Xiaosan is a mistress. Mistress, yeah. Oh, mistress, but it's not married guy. It's never married guy. So, but it's a guy that's in a relationship. Yeah.

Okay. Side chick. So is that still a Xiao San if you're not married? Is that still considered a Xiao San? Yes. I mean, Xiao San, I mean, from my understanding, Xiao San is like, yeah, it's the side chick on the side, but even more. It's like, I'm also going to be like treating you like my girlfriend. So I'm going to, whether it's financially or emotionally, it doesn't necessarily, but maybe traditionally some people will do that.

I'll rent an apartment, you can stay there. Like support you financially. This is a 情婦. Okay. 不是小三吗? 小三 is like, you said because this guy bought you an apartment or something, rent an apartment, and you're living there, she gave you money, something. This is a sugar daddy. Sugar daddy and this is mistress. 小三 is kind of different. Really? What's the difference? I think 小三 is like the third girlfriend.

But that's the same thing. But Xiao San don't take money, no? That's what my understanding is. That's my understanding too. Oh, really? But for me, I think Xiao San is just like the third person who also like this guy. Yeah.

Well, I don't think that taking money or not taking money can qualify or disqualify as a xiao san. That just depends on the nature of that relationship. But any mistress to me is a xiao san. Okay. And in my mind, it was always like for married men when they have, you know, a mistress on the side or even several mistresses on the side. Those were like the xiao san, right? Yeah.

but i've never really i never really heard that term applied to people who were just dating yeah oh it's like serious yeah if it's a show so maybe i i'm not no i mean i mean listeners if if you're out there and you know you can clarify this let us know just comment in the comment section or something i don't know but

So how did you find out, in your experience, you said, because you said there was someone that tried to make you there, shall I say? No, no, he didn't try anything to make me there. You were the one. What? Come on. Okay, okay.

I was just trying to hang out with him, okay? I didn't do anything. Did you know he was in a relationship already? Of course I know. Okay. Do I look like a stupid? No, no, no. But some guys hide it pretty well. I'm a spy, so I cannot. Actually, a lot of women are spies, you know? They're not stupid. They maybe pretend they don't know. Okay. Yeah. Okay, go on. No, I'm just like, I asked a guy who has a girlfriend out.

What's the problem? I don't know. Okay. Actually, I think that was not that good. Okay. But, you know, I think for me, as long as they're not married. Okay. Because we are all single. If we're not married. It's fair game. If they're not married, fair game. It's like, you know, I think it's single for me.

But, okay, so if I have a boyfriend, I'm not going to cheat. Okay, anyway, I don't know. So is your mentality more like, okay, I can make advances towards a guy who might have a girlfriend and the ball's in his court, whatever decision he wants to make. So it's not like...

You're forcing him to do anything. If he decides to do anything with you or have a relationship with you, that's on him. You mean force guys to be with you? Huh? You mean force a guy to be with you? No, like in your situation, if a guy already has a girlfriend, but you like this guy. Yeah, yeah. So you might maybe like, you know, reach out to him and talk to him and maybe even like, you know, like try to like ask him out on a date. So for you, because he's not married,

you know it's all fair game for you it's fair but so the the decision is on him to make that decision yeah what it was like is that kind of like your mentality i think so and it's just hang out it's nothing else right so hang out it's like getting to know a friend even it's just this friend i like him can i have a come on like he could be platonic right no

But just a moment ago, Jenny, you were like, you're not stupid. I'm not stupid, yeah. You're not stupid. So the whole thing is, it's like, and people aren't, a lot of people aren't stupid. So it's like, the whole thing is like, the whole platonic thing when a girl is, is 主动的, proactively, like, reaching out and trying to get in the guy's attention who's clearly in another relationship, is like,

You know exactly what you're doing. I told you in the beginning that if I see someone I like, I will go for it, right? Yep. And I see someone I like, he has girlfriend. What can I do? Like, I want to just get to know him. Okay. And I'm single. He's not married.

okay, to be honest, in the future, I'm not going to do this, okay? But I had this because you asked me. So I have to be honest because here is the honest dream. So yeah, I just have, I just tell you this experience that what's going on. So I mean, this is not good thing. It's really not good thing, but I've done it. And actually,

Actually, to be honest, I ask him out, you know, just hang out and have lunch or something. But it's not like I want he be my boyfriend or something. Just I want to get to know this person. Because I really very hard to find someone I'm interesting in. So you were curious about this person because he interested in you. Yeah.

obviously. And I don't want to let it go. I don't want to let my chance go because we only live once. So you don't think that much. You just go for it. Yeah, because what if it turned into true love, right? Like you would, at least you took that chance, right? At least I took that chance. Yeah, I'm not gonna regret anything in my life. So that's why I go for it. Yes, I think...

We think too much sometimes and people judge. So that's why we think, oh, maybe I'm not a good... But you know who you are and you... We are human, you know. We cannot control our feelings and emotions. If we can control, there's no divorce, okay? People won't get divorced if we can control. So I think it's very natural, you know. Like why did you...

because i'm thinking as a psychologist number one cheers you go girl you go girl more power to you but i'm right now because i'm like sitting here and i'm like listening to you and i'm trying to like put my like psychology hat on and uh you know kind of out of nowhere you just brought up the whole divorce thing like where what does that mean to you like why is that is that something that's

that you think about like like you don't want to ever get a divorce is that something you fear or something or i definitely don't want to get divorced if i get married okay because all the people around me i believe all the people around you are get divorced or getting divorced this is do you see do you see that a lot now around you a lot

A lot. The divorce rates are rising here. Yeah, I feel like it's like lately in China. It's definitely rising. And it's not just the spike due to COVID because we all know like worldwide there's been like a spike in divorce rates due to the quarantine and people staying at home. But no, this has been happening for years now in China, specifically in the main cities. Yes.

And you've seen that like around you, around your friends, you've seen like, you know, young people like getting married and then getting divorced around you. Yes. Really? Yes. A lot. A lot. Wow. Well, well, from my understanding, you can, you can, you know, give your opinion on it. From my understanding, it's like, um, culturally speaking, uh,

More traditional couples, if they get married, they will ignore the problems or difficulties for the children, right? Because for the betterment of the family. But modern society, women becoming more empowered and individualistic. And independent. Financially independent. Financially independent. Like all that stuff, right? It becomes like, well, why do I have to settle? Like why do I have to just like...

Just for keeping the family together. They're less desperate. Yeah, exactly. Before they thought like maybe they had less options. It was more of a man's world, quote unquote man's world. They were a little more desperate to find a guy. So they would, like you say, turn the other cheek on a lot of things and settle in a lot of ways. But now girls have a lot of options. They're very empowered. Like you say, they're very financially, they're more financially dependent where they don't have to rely on men as much anymore.

So they're like, yeah, I'm going to go get my own. You don't fit me, dude. Yeah. Next one, they don't have to settle as much. Is that the case, you think? Yeah, I think, yeah, definitely. But I think it's very unhealthy, to be honest. I mean...

For now, you know, I mean, even all over the world, I think, you know, marriage, a lot of people, they get married, they don't know how to, you know, management in marriage. That's what I feel. I think they need to maybe read more books or, you know, try to understand more about their partners, you know, before they get married. Do you think it's because a lot of people traditionally here have the old mentality and obviously they get a lot of pressure from the family and the parents here in China? Yeah.

that they you know like for the sake of marrying get married just for the sake of getting married because it's time's up it's gotta get married you know it's like oh at this age I need to go to college at this age I need to have a job at this age I need to get married at this age I need to have a house I hate this word you have

Because everything is like 应该 Like 为了结婚去结婚 你是男生 你应该是这样子的 我是女生 我应该在这个时候 You know Whatever 应该 Instead of doing it for the right reasons And really finding like true love And you know all these things Like they are hard to find I agree Like I mean they're hard to find But like people maybe do it for the wrong reasons Do you think that's why there's so much divorce around you? That you're seeing? Of course yeah A lot of you know local Chinese girls

they do this because their parents ask them to. But you know, I think it's just, that's why, you know, that's why I'm doing this, you know, the woman Muay Thai class. Actually, this is for inspire people, like ask more Chinese girls into the class and they can have this, you know,

to learn how to fight, to defend themselves and, you know, to find them, you know, the better self and to be stronger and find who you are and what you really want. So I think for women, they have to learn to self-love first and you have to have this power to, you know, to say no or...

have this confidence to communicate with your partner. Because I think a lot of, I think Chinese girls, they are afraid of something. Maybe like they think they're too old now, or maybe they think they're not good enough. They have a lot of insecurities. Insecurities. So this is, I think it's all about a woman. Why? Why do you think? 为什么你觉得在中国?

Like, especially in China, why? To be honest, I don't have the answer of this. I just feel like this way. But you feel like when it comes to Muay Thai, something like that, it's like there's a direct connection and influence of a person learning how to physically fight Muay Thai.

And they can translate that kind of confidence of knowing how to physically fight into metaphorically fighting for the things that they want in life, fighting for whether it's like relationship goals or career goals. It translates into, it trickles down into all that, that mindset. Definitely, definitely can. Because I was like that. Okay, I was not...

being always strong girl but I had my you know struggle but every time I fight training I let anger out I find myself you know during the training so that's why it helps it helps so I mean I

You're still pretty young. What changes or any changes do you feel you need to make about yourself in your own life or your own mentality in terms of growing? And even on the relationship front, it seems like a relationship is something you do want. It's not like you don't want it, but you don't want to settle, right? Sounds like I don't want. No, no, no. It sounds like you do want to. I do. Okay. Right.

But it just seems like you have your standards and you're not willing to compromise on your standards, which I respect. So, I mean, it's been seven years. How much longer are you willing to wait? Or is time not even a factor for you? And it's just like, if you meet the right person, you meet the right person. Good question. Good question. Actually, you know, not even me. A lot of girls, they've been single for years in Shanghai. I mean...

I don't know. I think lately I started to, you know, to try new things and, you know, maybe give others more chance, even give myself chance to know, you know, people. What kind of new things? I tried to, you know, after Jenny and Ji show, the cooking show, I tried to, you know, study the cooking, you know, improve myself. I mean, also, you know, just always improve myself and, you know,

get to know people I go out now okay I I go out to I'm I'm open you're more social I think so yeah you used to be not so social oh I'm I'm pretty afraid of the group you know I just feel I don't know why I don't know if you guys have these feelings you would feel those empty like you see a lot of people gather together you think it's a little bit fake no it's like they're like just like a drink and get

drunk we know exactly what you're talking about we know exactly it's pretty empty and it's very it's fake it's not uh it's not why we here it's like we we are wasting our time yeah okay so

That's one of the reasons why we do the show, actually. I was just about to say that, man. Yeah, because we enjoy drinking. Same wavelength, brother. Same wavelength. We enjoy drinking. We enjoy conversation. And it doesn't have to be out to party. It can just do it here and just have good conversation. We could be spending our weekends at the clubs popping bottles. We could be doing that like we used to. But the whole reason why we started this show is that there seems to be this lost space and this lack of... This loss of like...

Really connecting with people and sitting down in an uninterrupting atmosphere and really getting to know people through...

a long conversation with somebody yeah and that's something that we miss and like we've spent so many years here and and i'm not gonna be as like how we maybe views it as like wasting but i don't think it's wasted i feel like i definitely have a lot of cherished experiences and memories of partying and having fun and going out and you know all that stuff but you know as we get older

we clearly, Howie and I and Eric, and we both saw this kind of like this clear void in our life of like really connecting with the people we care about. And not only with the people we care about, but just even connecting with new people that we want to know because networking is always important and it's always good to meet new people. And we found that this podcast was like, you know, really the reason why we started this podcast was we wanted an atmosphere, something we can do on the weekends,

Just to sit down with somebody and get to know them better through long form conversation. And hopefully we selfishly can grow by getting to know them. Right. So there is that sense of, um,

there is that sense of like uh that depth that i think is lost in in that party life right that a lot of people are young are caught up into but when you're in that life it's hard to know like when you're wrapped up in the life like we were back then like you don't you don't see it you know to you that is the world right it's different words it's like a totally different word you know i mean

have you guys ever get hurt you know by someone or friendship you know yeah like i've fallen on my bike a couple times yeah that too you know you know what i mean i'm i just found out like i need some real friendship and real people surround me it's very hard to find very hard to find but we're trying yeah and everyone i think everyone got broken

In some way. We are broken soul. Sorry, but it's true. We are broken soul. But we are all special. Everyone has a beautiful story they're willing to tell. That's why I like your show. That's why I'm here. I think no matter how much damage we get, we can still find a way to stand up and become better self.

So, well, what's what's because it seems like it seems like you've been through something and I'm just speculating. But, you know, going back to the whole seven year single thing, which still blows my mind. But did that was there something that happened seven years ago?

that caused this kind of drought? The smile says it all. And this like heightened state of standards and all these things? Like were you hurt in some way some years ago? What happened? You know, actually I found out lately. I really found out lately. You know, I try to understand myself every day. I found out finally.

Okay, seven years ago, I had a relationship, which is for two years. And he was amazing guy. He's amazing, really good guy, but also ABC guy. And I just found out after I broke up with him, why I've been single like many, many years is because I found out that when I was with him, I always tried to appreciate him.

That was too much. I always think because he was, he treated me very nice, but I always have this, you know, thing that I feel like, you know, actually usually in relationship, you guys, you know, man and woman, they take care of each other. They love each other. It's very normal. And you don't have to think

Did he make you feel that way that you had to thank him or was that just something you felt you had to do? Half-half.

I think half-half. Because I think he thought he always better than me. That's what I feel. Like you were a charity for him. Like he was reaching down to you and helping you. He actually made me feel this way. Really? He's a good guy. He's a really good guy. That doesn't sound like a good guy. No, he's a good guy. Trust me. But there's something, maybe it's because he's cultural.

Like you guys. That's the topic we have to, you know, bring up today. You know, like deep down he thinks he's better than me. So we are never, you know, average. That's why maybe I think that way. It's not his fault. It's his, you know, culture. I don't know. In his view, you guys were never on the same level.

is that what you're saying this is okay not all the time but sometimes but that actually maybe i keep this in my mind so for many years i every time if i see someone i have these feelings i have to think thank him for like anything he he've done for me and this is not healthy and this is not how it works i think lately i really found out it's because of that

So that makes me single many years. I have a question. I have a question. Okay. 我老婆是中国人。 Okay. So my wife is Chinese. And when we first started dating, right, we had a little bit of not argument or fight, but with like a little bit of an issue. And part of it was that I always felt like she was never, she never said sorry and thank you. Like those words. Right. Right.

It never says it. Right. And then I would. And finally, it got to the point where I'm like, why don't you ever say it? Like, like part of our fights we have is because you never say this type of shit, you know? And then she's like, why do I say it? I only say if I really mean it.

you know what i mean and she's like she's like because i'm like well because we're used to saying like careful you know it's fine it's fine and it's like um i'm like well and we're used to saying like sorry and thank you thank you as a respect thing it's just like a manners you know and so that was like a big issue now we're i mean we're past that but i'm saying like at that time it was an issue

So do you think, cause you just said right now, you're like, well, you, the whole thank you idea, like this, is it, is it maybe that from his perspective, it's just little things. It's just like, thank you. It's just like a very common thing to say, right?

Like maybe it is a very cultural thing. Maybe it's a cultural thing. We've alluded to this in the past where like in the West, thank you is like a reflex. Yeah. It's like every little thing. Every little thing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's almost lost meaning because this is like a reflex. We say it without even thinking. But then we notice it if you don't say it. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like what? No thanks? But I think like in local Chinese culture, when

When people say thank you, they really mean it. They mean it. Like, you really did something for them, and they say, shish it. Like, thank you. But they, like, it's rare, like, for any little thing. Like, even if you hold the door for somebody here, like, there's no thank you. They have to be saying, you have to say it. Thank you. This is a manner. I've held doors for plenty of people. I've never heard a shish it. Rarely. Oh.

They just walk right through. We don't even say I love you. Yeah, that's another thing. Like there is no I love you. We don't say things like a lot, but doesn't mean we don't feel thank you. Yeah. Well, that's true. What I heard is 要做出来,不是说出来. Action. Action speak louder than the words. Yeah. Right? And that's what I got brainwashed from my wife. She's like, why you always got to talk about it? Look at my actions. It's true. Yeah. It's true.

So that's why I mean for a woman never believe what guys say, okay? You have to always see Talk is cheap Very cheap, okay? It's true, it's true You have to see what he really doing for you That's true So yeah But going back again, do you think that was the issue with that ex? No, it's different thing It's different thing Yeah, different thing So what happened? What happened? What happened?

No, just like nothing happened. We good. We were good. Well, I think what he's trying to say is that not necessarily what happened, but how did that affect you to make you feel like that was such a big issue to turn into this whole thing? How did it change you? How did it change you? You know, like...

Change me? I think maybe I have less confidence. Less confidence now? No, before. I mean, after I broke up, I think. So you have more confidence now? I'd love to say the confidence is back. Okay. And I think I have learned a lot from experience. So I think I'm very good now. Well, I want to hear from you, right? Because...

Back then, being an ABC, right? And for the listeners that don't know what an ABC is, an ABC stands for American Born Chinese.

So both Howie and I are considered ABC. I mean, I wasn't technically born in America. It's a generalization. It basically means Western educated and born. But then there's like BBC, like British born Chinese. Australian born. Yeah. So if you were born outside in like a Western country, but you're of Chinese descent and ethnicity, you're considered ABC type, right? Under that umbrella. Yeah.

So, you know, back in the day, and by back in the day, we're talking about like 10, at least 10 years ago when we first got here in Shanghai, which was, I think when you're talking about you were with this guy. ABC's had a very, had it very good. Had a very, very, we were royalty here. Like the way we, the way we groomed ourselves, the way we held ourselves, the fact that we can speak English well,

The fact that usually, typically, we could spend more money than the average local person. We had it really good in terms of like the dating and social life, the social scene here, right? Yeah. And so like I and I know this for a fact was I was witness to this like there and that does bring a lot of like cockiness to a lot of ABCs.

Back in that day You know Because you thought Like you were Liao Bichi Yeah So Liao Bichi You know what I mean Like they held themselves Like higher Than the locals It's true Um

So do you feel like that was a big... But both guys and girls. A lot of people hated ABC girls. Especially the girls. Especially the ABC women. That was a big thing. No, no, that was a huge thing. But it still is almost to this day. Like local girls hated ABC women and ABC women hated local girls. I don't hate any ABC girls. I think they're very chill.

Well, I think it just depends. Like, you know, back then I heard that all the time. Like, for example, for example, just generalization, our ABC friends that are females, they

Would be like, yeah, I don't know how you did all these local girls because they're, you know, they don't they don't know what the fuck that's going on. You know, why don't you date more like, you know, international or whatever? I've heard that so many times. Yeah. Right. Or or or they'll be like, yeah, I would never date a local guy because, you know, local guys, they don't get it.

You know what I mean? So it's like they have this whole like. Kambichi. Kambichi. Yeah. And I hated that actually. I hated it. I always defended. That's pretty sad. Yeah, that was my pet peeve. But a large part of me believes that they were just jealous. Like a lot of ABCs because the ABC guys when they came here, they would just date local women. Right? They would go around. They would date all the local girls. Right? In general. In general. In general.

And the ABC girls here were like, what the fuck? You know what I mean? Like, hello, I'm here. But all the ABC guys would be busy dating local women. So I felt like a large part of that was like jealousy. Maybe. So that's why they kind of like hated the ABC girls and just looked down on them and just thought like, oh, you know, they're just gold diggers or whatever. Right. But like the situation now for ABCs is completely different. Yeah.

Yeah. Completely different now. Like ABC, being an ABC here in China is nothing, nothing special anymore. Nothing special. Nothing special anymore. And in fact, being a local guy here comes with a lot more probably advantages in terms of the dating scene, in terms of dating local women here. Because of the national pride, China has come up, it's developed so much more. The young generation of people here now are so much more proud to be Chinese than back in the day.

And that pride has trickled down into like, well, the guys here, they can wear nicer clothes. They have nice cars. They have good jobs. Their hygiene and their swag, their style, everything has come up. So it's just like, why would an ABC be anything special anymore? Yeah. It's good. Yeah. Well, what do you think? In your dating life, do you have a preference towards a certain...

versus another type of guy right now? I don't know anything about dating, but I know... Sorry. Sorry for myself. I mean, as I see a Chinese boy now, okay, before back then...

let's say seven years ago, okay? If I see a Chinese boy, if he cannot speak English, I would think, I don't want to date him, you know? Because I think it's not cool. And because it's, you know, here is international city and if you don't speak English, I feel like you don't, like, I feel like you're like... Yeah, a little bit. But this was back, this was old Jenny. Yeah, like seven years ago, okay? But...

I knew shit too. But now if I see a Chinese boy, even he cannot speak English, I would still love to hang out with him because I finally found out the beauty of Chinese culture.

And, you know, I have to appreciate that. You know, we can actually talk about a lot of things, like more things about books, you know, movies. We have our own movies and we have more, you know, better writers. You have a deeper connection with a local person than you do with an ABC. Yes. And they all like, they like to travel a lot. They know a lot of things, you know. So I think their life quality is great.

you know, increase a lot. So that's why I think there's no difference. And I think they're smart too. You know, it's really interesting because I've had a lot of, I mean, personally, I've had a lot of conversations with people throughout my life here, even recently, where if, you know, say my background being American born and raised,

Maybe the other person would be like, "Oh, that's so interesting. That's so great. Why are you here? That's amazing over there." And I'm always the first to defend. I'm like, "You don't know. It's not that great." I mean, it's great here. I feel like China is an amazing country and there's a lot of beautiful culture here. And I mean, yes, I'm Chinese background, but I was born in America. So to me, it's very fresh, even though I've been here for a long time. But to me, it's still very diverse and interesting.

Of course, there's good and bad for everywhere. But I mean, it's very interesting here. There's a lot of things to be proud of if you're locally born. And I always said that there's plenty to be proud of if you're locally born here.

you know and then and I feel like it's starting to turn like you said like yeah you get some people like whoa yeah I'm proud yeah there is a lot of great stuff here yeah and like yeah if you want to use financial for example like yeah like you hear that now you know what I mean there's so much more to be proud of now too right like

you know china's come out strong and you know if we look into the world of politics and media you you see that every day it's interesting it's definitely interesting i mean i just think um i mean for me coming from america and living here for a long time being right in the middle um i don't know if you can attest to this justin um but um i mean i'm not saying i hold any allegiance anywhere because i feel like pride in general is a bit of a idiotic thing to have um

But I can see like the good and bads of both. You know, it's not one is better than the other. It's just different. And I think it's like as long as you can appreciate that difference and wherever you are, I think that's the most important thing. I mean, what do you think?

Yeah. I mean, but like, you know, we always, there's always this tendency to gravitate back towards the mentality of tribalism. And that's just human nature is just like my camp versus your camp. So we're in a very unique position in the fact that not only are we have, we have experienced both sides in terms of both sides being like United States and China for like a long time. But, but,

We're experiencing both sides in this very particular window of time. Yeah, that's true. Just a few decades ago, it would be completely different. So in this particular window of time right now, which is just a small window really in the grand scheme of things,

We are here having been raised in the West in the United States. So we have a very unique outlook in the fact that like we can really kind of objectively try to look at both sides, but that's not most people. Most people are don't do not have that privilege, I guess. And so just like just take us, for example, if we have never moved out here to China and we stayed in the United States all our lives, right?

we would have probably a very different outlook and opinion than we do now. Or if we were Chinese and we never had any experience in the States and we just grew up in China our whole lives, we would have a very different outlook than we have now. So that is the reality of the world. That is the reality of the majority of people.

And for us, we get to have this kind of very unique position where we get to see both sides. And I think that's where a lot of our values comes from in terms of like us being to weigh both cultures and see the good and bad of both cultures and try to like honestly try to like look at things objectively and try to learn from these things. But at the same time, like personally, for me, it's very frustrating. Yeah.

because it's very frustrating knowing that I'm the minority here. Not here in China, but the minority in terms of my perspective. Because every time what happens when you turn on the news, you turn on the media, you look at... On both sides. Yeah, on both sides. China and United States and worldwide, everywhere, right? No one is innocent of this. No country is innocent of this. Everyone is guilty. But every time you look at social media, you look on Facebook, you look on Twitter, you turn on the news, like...

It's all this like tribalism, it's all these opinions and they're disguised but at the end of the day it's all tribalism, it's all my side versus your side, it's all my bubble perspective and not taking account into any other kind of culture or understanding. It's a very one-sided, everything is biased, right?

No matter where you're from, you only know your own little bubble and you form all your opinions about the outside world on that bubble of understanding. And I'm not trying to say like, oh, I'm more enlightened or cultured or educated. I'm not. I'm dumb as it can be. I'm as ignorant as anybody. But just from the mere fact of my situation, I get to at least step in two bubbles at the same time.

So when I see a lot of the tension between especially the United States and China and things like that, it's very frustrating because I see both sides and both sides are like really just ignorant sometimes.

You know, and it's just so frustrating because then you start losing faith in like people's like in the media, really. Well, that's funny you say that because I've I mean, I don't know about you or you, but I mean, I've lost faith in media. I mean, that's that's a hundred percent. You know what I mean? Because it really is. And that affects me to feel like how do I feel about human beings?

In general, and I think that goes back to what you're saying. It's like, you know, you know, you only know as much as your environment, right? And what you've been told, right? Whether societal media, whatever. And if you cannot look beyond that, you can't look past that. Well, then you mean you're kind of trapped, right? You're kind of trapped in this like very singular tunnel vision way of thinking.

And that's not, I don't think that's a very nice way to live. Yeah. I mean, personally, you know, I mean, I don't know. How do you, how do you feel about that? Do you, do you feel like you, cause I feel like, okay, so Jenny, you, you, you, you, you've lived in Shanghai all your life, but at the same time you, you live in a very international circle of friends and like, you know, and plus your gym is full of international people. You get to meet a lot of different people. I mean, do you feel like because of that, do you feel like the way you think and stuff like that is a little bit different? No,

Definitely, yeah. Definitely. If I don't have those international friends, of course, I'm different. I would always think about... Actually, to be honest, now I don't really know what local Shohanis like or where they go. I really don't know. I don't know where can those young people...

you know, go party or, you know, for social life. I cannot find them. You're not connected to that generation? No. So this is not so good. Well, what about, let me ask you, so, I mean, 反过来说, what if a local person says to you, well, Jenny, you hate yourself. No, no, you hate yourself as a Chinese, as a local.

No, it's very easy to say that, right? Because you're saying like, I'm hanging out with the international, so I don't get what the locals are thinking like that. Do you think you're better than the local people now? That's what I'm saying is like, 有可能他们也会这样认为。 I think they will, but I think there are some...

It depends, you know, they could be something, you know, better, and I can know something better than them, they can know something better than me. So it's not competition. It's like maybe because of my business, so I have to, you know, fit in of this international groups.

And also, I love to meet, you know, different people. This is my hobby. But if like local Shanghainese, they love to just hang out with, you know, local Shanghainese. And maybe they feel more comfortable about that. I'd love to have more, you know, Shanghainese friends.

I love to fit in. That actually is what I'm trying to do, to bring more Chinese members in my gym so I can get to know them and we can see what we can do better together. Yeah.

I mean, me too. I mean, I think that goes with all people. Like if you see the foreigners here, they tend to just like to hang out with other foreigners, right? ABCs tend to like to hang out with other ABCs, right? Locals, it's just your tribe, you know, that goes back to the whole thing. Like that's your tribe of people and the people you're going to tend to gravitate towards. Obviously not everyone's like that.

But I think there's a big importance in trying to break out of your own little bubble and trying to interact with more people. I know for yourself, Howie, in the past several last few years, you've spoken to me and you've actually stayed like, look, I'm trying to break out my bubble. I'm trying to actually hang out with more locals, hang out with more local Chinese, wherever they're from, and just immerse myself in that culture more.

And break out of my own bubble, you know, just be more exposed to people and take advantage of like the country I'm in and make new friends and just have like a different bubble that you're a part of. Right. And you've done that to a large part.

And a lot of it is through your work, but like you've done that through a large part. And I think that's a very valuable experience that we all try to do. I love it. And it goes back to the idea of like breaking out of our comfort zones.

Because hanging out with people that are similar to you, that is the comfort zone. Right? It's very comfortable. Well, you don't want to feel alone. Right? So it's like we both come from a very similar background experience. So I don't feel alone. So we can talk about our own little stuff and you get it. Right? And if you're with a bunch of other people that don't get it or they have a different upbringing, then maybe it's a little bit like, well, you don't understand. So why am I even bothering? Yeah. But if that's the only mentality you have, you'll never progress. Right?

You'll never keep moving forward.

If you only have the mentality of I'm only gonna hang out with people that know me. I'm only gonna do things 'cause it's safe. I'm not gonna take a chance. You're never gonna get out of your stagnant position. You're not gonna progress. - But it is really hard though, right? I can speak from my own experience. It's hard being that-- - You like to be in the comfort zone. - Of course, everyone likes to be in the comfort zone. But yeah, I do have a problem with getting stuck in the comfort zone.

And, you know, I've tried like trying to like interact with like a group of like all locals, like complete locals. And it's very hard because you feel so odd there. Oh, tell me. Because number one, you don't really get like on the surface, you can understand the conversation. But like you don't really get like the deeper meaning behind like a lot of things they're saying or the inside jokes or a lot of the references they're making. Yeah.

And it seems like they have to slow down their social interaction just to keep you in the loop. So like they're helping you stay in the conversation, which is not a comfortable position to be in because then it feels like very, very forced. Right.

uh where they have to like attend to you like there's a very mean it's like you're like we become the elephant in the room oh there's a guy who's this guy here who's chinese isn't so good who's not from our culture he's trying to fit in let's try to make him feel welcome everybody so everyone's going out of the way to try to make you feel like welcome but meanwhile like you don't really get it you don't really you're not really understanding everything and they're kind of in their own thing

And the things that you're trying to refer to just don't vibe with their culture. And there's this clear disconnect. But everyone's good-hearted and good-spirited and trying to make it work, which just makes the whole situation very awkward at times, right? Right? I get it, yeah. So it's very hard. It's not a pleasant experience. But I think the more you try to do it, the easier it gets with anything. Yeah. Plus, I mean, personally for you, like...

you would start to catch on. As you experience it more and more, you'll start getting the nuances of language. You'll start getting the nuances of these references that you're talking about. Because even for me, in the beginning when I hang out and it's all Chinese, Mandarin speaking group, no English, and then I always... They'll stop and be like, 你懂了吗? 你听懂了吗? They'll stop and they'll ask me. Everyone stops and turns around and looks at you. And I always say to them, I'm like...

如果我不懂的话,我会问你的。 你继续吧。 And I'm like, if I don't understand, I'll ask you. Just continue, please. Because I don't want to be the guy to slow it down. I know exactly what you mean. The anchor there. And even if I don't know, I'm not going to say it. I'm just going to try to guess. But then eventually, I kind of get it. Like I start getting it.

Okay, so I think it's maybe ego. I don't know. Because if I hang out with, you know, the Western friends, let's say, if I don't understand anything, I was always like immediately ask. I'm going to stop them. And hey, what's that? I will ask that. Maybe you should try to be more chill.

Or maybe try different group. Maybe the local Chinese people you guys hang out with, it's not, you guys don't have, you know, something in common. 共同語言。 Yeah, you find some, some,

Maybe you work out together or you guys, you know, like something. Sam, then maybe I think it's different. I don't think it's anything about culture and country. I think it's about people sometimes. I get it. I get it. I mean, personally for me, I'm not going to speak for you, Justin, but for me, in general, unless the topic is so far-fetched that I know that I'm opening up a can of worms for you to explain to me what you're talking about.

If it's something small, like if we're talking about something, we're having a deep conversation and something like, I don't know.

you know the use of vocabulary i don't understand i'll be like oh hold on what does that mean what does that mean all right all right got it let's go let's go but if we're talking about the old like we're talking about ancient politics during the qing dynasty i'm not going to stop you to explain it i'm like just just talk just you're not an expert on that just talk because you're using a lot of words i don't know just talk it's fine no but it's not just about you understanding what they're saying is that when you try to express what you're like you try to get involved in the conversation right

And then you try to 表达你自己 但是你就表达不出来 You can't like express yourself in a way like You try to express yourself And then they look at you with this blank stare Like they have like no clue what you just said You know? You might as well just not talk Yeah And they're just like, what do you mean? And I'm like trying to express myself But they're just like

They just don't understand it, you know? But your Chinese is good. Your Chinese. It's good on the surface. It's good on the surface. Oh, okay. Plain communication. Yeah, plain communication is fine. But like if I really... Because usually if I try to express myself, if I even bother to try to express myself, it's...

Because I don't always, right? Besides on the show. But if I really try to, I try to say something I'm really feeling and it's usually something of more depth that I'm feeling. So when it comes to that, my Chinese vocabulary is not strong enough to really...

enforce that thought so oftentimes i just have to rely on my basic chinese vocabulary my surface chinese chinese vocabulary to try to express deeper thoughts you know i'm saying and and it just doesn't come out it doesn't translate so they look at me with these blank stares like okay whatever whatever you just said but we're gonna go on with this conversation now

And it becomes weird. I mean, maybe you didn't want to explain. Imagine if there's just a super hot Chinese girl standing in front of you. I'll explain. My Chinese will be good right away. It's just coming out of your mouth. It's so fluent. Scholarly Chinese. I'm like writing. I'm like doing calligraphy. Chinese ancient calligraphy.

Like writing poems in Chinese? You get me now. I mean, like, it's just you don't, you didn't want to explain. That's all. You're just looking for... Come on, it depends on who you with. No, no, no, no, no. We're joking, but I really do want to explain. But, you know, like on a deeper level, my Chinese, my vocabulary is just not good enough.

to express those deeper thoughts. But I think it's pretty normal. I mean, as long as you're within a group. Even if you're within our own English-speaking group, but those people do, I don't know, space travel. I don't know. You know what I mean? They're using lingo that we don't even know what the hell they're talking about. I mean, maybe if they're talking about a certain topic that they're really knowledgeable about, we're not really that knowledgeable about.

We can maybe ask them to explain some things, but if they really go in depth, I'm just not going to add to it. Just please go ahead. Right? I mean. Apparently, Howie tends a lot of space travel talks. Every other week. I've been learning. So, Jenny, what's next for you? What's next for me? I think, to be honest, I'm trying to get into some new industry.

I think it's the time for me to, you know, to make a new chapter. Were you about to say something? No. Do you see a lot of young women around you being more entrepreneurial in general in Shanghai? You mean Shanghainese or Chinese, right? Yeah. I think no.

They like, maybe they work for, you know, some good company. Maybe they're a supervisor. But I, oh, my cousin, my cousin, she's an entrepreneur and she's doing great. Okay. In the fashion industry. It's not something you see as often? Not that often, but yeah, it's more and more. Yeah, it's often actually. It's often. It's often? So it wasn't often, but now it's often. Yeah.

I don't know. From my perspective, I see it a lot more. Not every girl is like you, but there are a lot of much more motivated women out there. Don't forget, there's also a lot of these KOLs that are self-pushing, right? And they come to Chuang Yeh, whether it's content, like little sweet shops or cafes or whatever. Taobao. There's a lot of Chuang Yeh going on.

It's a very interesting time that we're living in right now. And you have a lot more people being a lot more entrepreneurial. And you have more opportunities, actually. And it doesn't have to be like huge company or anything. It could be small company. It's just as long as you're doing something that, you know, it's your own thing. Yeah. Well, Jenny, I think I hope I wish the best for you in the future. I hope that you can find a healthy way to balance your

objectives with your, um, social and relationship and personal objectives. Um, I think that's always going to be a battle for people like you, um, because both take up a lot of time and energy and you're going to have to end up prioritizing one over the other at one point or another. Um,

So, I don't know. Like, I can't speak as a woman, but I feel like we've spoken a lot about how women are being more empowered and more financially dependent. But, like, women go through a lot more struggles, I think, and a lot more mental hurdles in their mind than maybe men go through. And that's not something I can speak on. But we can appreciate it. But we can appreciate it. And I believe that it's there. Yeah.

And, like, look, I just hope that, like, the landscape is changing. Like, I'm an alien in terms of, like, the young landscape and social scene here. Like, I have no idea what's going on anymore. But, look, I hope you find someone soon. I hope everything goes well professionally. And, you know, I don't know. Like, you just have to...

Keep on trucking. I think she's got a good hand on her shoulder. She's good. She's good. Thank you. Thank you for coming. Cheers. Thank you. Guys. That was some good bourbon. That was good. That was good. I'm Justin. And I'm Howie. That was Jenny, guys. All right, people. Peace. See ya. The light of the sun will see my bright eyes. Bourbon will see my eyes.

I'm a fella, I'm a fella, I'm a fella, I'm a fella