#45. The Big Test
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us at thehonestdrink at gmail.com. And if you've been enjoying the show, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe. Now, this episode was actually recorded on July 4th, which is America's Independence Day, or the American Revolution.

Guo Qingjie. So Eric Howey and I, we get into some real interesting conversation, and not surprisingly, it spins completely out of control. We talk about everything from the midlife crisis to the meaning of our dreams to current events and even Donald Trump. This was a wild one, but hey, that's how it goes on this show. Here we go.

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All right, what the fuck are we talking about today? It is a special occasion. No, it's not. Yeah, it is. No, it's not. It's a major... It's a birthday. We don't need to talk about it. It's a country's birthday. Hold on. No, well, it's kind of a double birthday. It's a national holiday today. It's a national holiday. It's also a THD holiday. I hereby declare it a THD holiday. Yes. Let's wish Justin a happy birthday.

Happy birthday, Justin. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Cheers. Cheers. Well, I don't know, man. What is the actual date of your birthday? Tomorrow. July 5th. Yeah. The day after Independence Day. The American Independence Day. Yeah. Yeah. That's, you know, growing up when I was a kid and I didn't know anything about Independence Day growing up in America. You know, July 4th, there's always fireworks, right? Like crazy, especially when we were growing up back then.

Maybe less so now. I used to think those fireworks were for me.

So self-centered. No, as a little kid, because my birthday was the next day, and I didn't know about this Independence Day holiday. And so there was always fireworks. I was like, oh, these fireworks for me. Obviously, as I grew up, I knew. Did your parents play along as well? No, I never really spoke to my parents about it. I just always thought in my head, oh, these fireworks for me. When I was very small. And then now...

No, man. I just fucking, I really hate celebrating birthdays now. My own.

I really hate celebrating my own birthdays because each year that goes by just reminds me I'm just getting one year older. Justin, seriously, like all these years of knowing you, you definitely almost never wanted to celebrate your birthday, even when you were younger. Like maybe, okay, maybe a little bit younger when I first met you, it was more about like, let's party, right? It was like an excuse to party. Yeah, but I feel like after turning 30, like I think you started to die down a little bit. Yeah, I don't bring it up.

There have been times I even forgot it was my birthday. Yeah, I don't like it. And it goes back to, I think, our very, very first episode, which is kind of fitting because we're talking about Balvenie, our first episode, the journey we've come on. First episode was about the midlife crisis. It's not that we're going to talk about it today, but it really kind of plays into that in terms of I just don't enjoy the fact that I'm getting older. Yeah.

I enjoy the journey, but I don't enjoy marking my age down. And kind of keeping tabs on this ticking clock. That is each year that goes by. It's a little depressing. Yeah, it's like a reminder. It's a reminder. It's a reminder. You get to a point where...

Where, like, maybe you're more than halfway to the other side. Yeah. And that's the scary part. It's like you're one year closer to death. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because whenever that day is... When you're on the front end of it, like you're 20, you're on the front end. So you're like, I got a couple more years, right? Yeah. But once you get on the back nine, it's like game over, man. Fuck. Yeah. Well, also, I think it depends on the perspective because if you're kind of... Unless you're doing something every day where you're just like... I mean...

for lack of a better description, ecstatic of what you're doing. Like you said to me, what's the point of celebrating, right? So it's like maybe it's kind of like a negative outlook. But maybe if you're really pushing every day, pushing it, milking it for what it's worth, why not celebrate? Well, it definitely has to do, it's tied in with mindset for sure, right? So like my mindset, you guys know me, and I've talked about that pretty honestly on this show before.

is that I'm always in this mindset of like, okay, what have I done? I almost feel like I haven't really accomplished anything. And I put this, I have that mindset, I have that pressure on myself. It's not very healthy. I don't think it's really helping me, but it's hard to escape from. So time becomes a very, is a very pressing factor in that. The less time you have and the more time that goes by,

the less you think you've accomplished because you've had like, okay, another year has gone by and you still feel like I was, like, I still feel like I'm in the same place I was last year. You know what I mean? So if you don't see that progress being made, time becomes your enemy. But if you see progress, you know, you can celebrate it because at least within that year, you'd be like, oh, I made all this progress. Look at everything I've done. And you can celebrate that. But when you feel you haven't made too much progress, that's when time is like, just like the worst thing in the world.

all right can i challenge you on this yeah okay please so let's go back to this this year this year for you so what happened this year for you why do you have the mindset that you haven't really accomplished anything because from an external perspective i wouldn't necessarily feel that way for you so what happened this year i'm just curious like are you asking me to like recount yeah things i have accomplished this yeah like you got married

I got married. But is that really an accomplishment though? Yeah. Yeah. If you find someone that you love and that you can be with, like, I think here's the thing, right? We normalize to things. So it's like amazing things. Like, like, do we really take our parents? Like, do we really appreciate them? And it's like,

Have your parents ever been sick? Or like during COVID, have you ever thought about what would happen like if your parents weren't around anymore? Or have you ever had a dream where your parents were gone? I have. It's the fucking scariest thing in the world. It's the saddest thing. I've had dreams. Even when I was a kid, like one of my parents died. So, you know, so like...

you know kind of going back to getting married imagine you didn't get married imagine you didn't have your wife right now your life would fucking change in an instant yeah you know so like they call this like um they call it negative visualization or like counterfactual gratitude where you imagine what it would be like if something that you really cared about was taken away from you you know and then that's when you really feel the weight of like your progress i guess

Or that's just when you realize that maybe it's not about progress per se, but it's just like you have something really great. And do you need to have some kind of meaningful achievement or, you know, winning gold medals every day? Or are you still moving forward in your life? I think you raise a really good point. It's crazy because once you think about it, it's so insane how quickly we normalize to things, right? Mm-hmm.

Like you're so quickly like before just a year ago, the idea of marriage was like this huge thing, right? Like this huge thing. Oh, my God, it's crazy. I'm going to get married. It's like and even before that was like this concept of marriage was just like this huge life changing moment in your life.

bigger than almost anything that I've gone through, right? So it's like, and now here I am just a year later, and I'm like, oh, is marriage even an accomplishment? It's like, well, you know, like it's so quick how we normalize the things. And I think we do that to a lot of things. And in that sense, I guess you don't really realize you are taking steps forward when you normalize to each step right away, right? Then because that becomes a new normal, that becomes a new standard, right?

So you never really look back and look at all the footsteps that you've already taken behind you. Exactly. Yes. And it's crazy, Eric. You mentioned dreams. It's really crazy you say that because I woke up this morning and I shit you not, I woke up this morning and I was thinking about the dream I had. And I was thinking about this idea of dreams because I keep having this reoccurring dream throughout my life. And I had one last night.

And this was like the first time I've actually woken up and was like, wait, so what does this really mean? Because I've always had this recurring dream and I never really, I wake up and just go about my day. And that was it. I never really thought too much about it. And it was the first time. So it's really crazy. You bring up dreams. What's this dream? Are you going to share it or? It's a reoccurring dream. It takes, it happens in different forms and in different contexts. But the dream is always, I'm taking a test.

and I'm in school taking a test and it's either I don't have enough time to finish this test or I have no idea on the subject of this test. You know, like I have no idea. Like it could be on like trigonometry and I'm like, I have no idea how to answer these math questions, right? So, and it's always just like this fear of not being able to complete this test either by with because of time or because of just I don't have the knowledge.

And like this pressure and I'm never able to finish this test. And meanwhile, everyone around me is like scribbling away, handing in their test. And I'm just like sitting there and I have like no idea what to do, but I need to graduate. And it's almost like in this dream, it's almost like very clear pressure like, oh, I need to pass this test or pass this course to graduate out of this school. And I'm never able to finish that test.

And that's how the dream ends. You've been having this for a long time. For at least the last 10 years, maybe. Oh, 10 years? Yeah, the last 10 years of my life. Interesting, because it's like you're using schooling as, I mean, in your dreams, there's like a school type of system. Yet you've been out of school for so long. Yeah. It's weird. Well, I think it ties into a little bit of reality. Because when I was in school, I always had a hard time finishing tests.

Even if I knew the subject, for some reason I was a really slow test taker. To the point that actually in high school, I went to go, there was actually, because I went to a rich kid's high school, there was a school psychologist in there. And the teachers had noticed, all my teachers had noticed that I was having this problem finishing tests. The answers he does finish, they're all right. But he just can't finish the test.

So they sent me to the school psychologist and they ran me through like, you know, these like, you know, these tests and blah, blah, blah. And then at the end of it, I was allowed extra time as a kid to finish tests, which at that stage in my life, I was, I was like really humiliated. And I was like, just really humiliated.

questioning myself like am i just like a retard like what like how come no one else needs extra time i was the only person in my class that ever needed extra time and i was allowed extra time they were like yes okay we're gonna grant you extra time justin has extra time to finish all his tests and so i was like catered to and like this lone person who needed extra time and uh

Yeah, it really sucked in terms of my confidence, I think, in things. I mean, outwardly, I was very confident. I was part of the popular crowd and I was a popular person in high school. But inside, it just really fucked me up. Did people make fun of you ever? No, no one ever really made fun of me. Question. When you were taking these tests, can you remember why it would take you so long?

It's a little bit of OCD, which I still have now. Is it a comprehension or is it because you want to make sure every single detail of what you're taking? Every single detail. It's every single detail. Like you guys just saw me setting up the studio. I spent like, what, like 20 minutes looking at this light. You guys must have thought, what the fuck was I doing? That's OCD. Autism spectrum.

Well, it goes back to... What are you trying to say, Eric? It goes back to what I've said about you for the longest time, right? It's like once you focus on something, it's just like you get hyper-focused. Yeah. You know, I'm not going to use retard anymore. I just feel like I need to move on from that. We all need to move on from that word. You used it. Well, I used it and you used it. No, it's like... I feel like I have free license to use that word because I am a retard. No, no, no. You got hyper-focused, right? And you become hyper-focused and you get like caught up in the details. Yeah. And...

I can see that. Every test question, even though I've answered it, I would run through it like three to five times just to make sure like everything is sound before I moved on to the next question. Like my SATs, I finished like I only got through half. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay.

Like I, I totally fucked up on SATs. The half I did get right. I, you know, I think I scored pretty highly on, but, but I only got through half because one, one, one side of it is because like, I, I, I'm just a slow test taker. The other side of it, because at that point in my life, I just didn't give a fuck. I didn't really, at that time, I really didn't care about getting into college. Well, it's interesting because, um, you really start noticing everybody has their own idiosyncrasies and, um,

I mean, how far you take that idiosyncrasy, if it becomes like a medical ailment or whatever, I mean, that's a different story. But it's interesting that for you, how that has become... Well, that was a sort of a detriment for you when you were young. But I feel like as you get older, that attention to detail is actually...

Forget about time and stuff like that, but attention to detail, I think it's a good trait to have. It brings up something interesting. I heard this recently, this line. And the line is, don't strive for perfection. And this comes from Buddha, right? And Buddha said that attachment to results is the cause of all sufferings.

So if we zoom out a little bit, you were saying that you don't normally reflect on the dreams. Is there any connection that you can think of between this notion of your dream and then this sense of not accomplishing things and then like midlife crisis? Like what is a midlife crisis?

is a midlife crisis partially defined by you get to a certain point in your life and you haven't really done everything that you've kind of wanted to do that point. You kind of feel like you're a little bit behind. Is there any connection to that? And sort of like taking a test and you get to the point where, okay, the test is over. Everyone else has finished, but you haven't finished and you need more time. I don't know. It seems there might be. Yeah, I think so. I think it's, it's, it's just almost this idea of like time, right? Yeah.

Whether it's like not enough time to finish this test, I think that's a metaphor to like maybe I'm feeling I just haven't accomplished enough within the time I have so far. And maybe there's not enough time. I feel like there's like less and less time going forward. I don't know. You know, again, I never really reflected on it. I don't know what the psychology of that is. It makes sense, though. I mean, if I were to somehow relate to what you're going through or even the dreams that you had, I...

tend to have that, you know, we have discussed previously these, whether it's anxiety or panic attacks, a lot has to do with wasted time as well. Time management, you know, where you are in your life as, you know, as compared to where you want to be.

Right. And that can cause anxiety. And except that I go through that anxiety in real time, maybe you'll go through it during your dreams. Yeah. You know, maybe, maybe. Because even then when I mentioned that I had previously panic attacks or anxiety disorders, you couldn't understand. Yet what you dream about is that. I mean, it's a form of anxiety.

So, I don't know. I find it fascinating that you have that in your dream, yet in real life, you really don't go through it. And I guess, like you said, it just manifests in different ways for all of us, maybe. I don't know. So, you got married this past year. So, you know, that's a pretty big accomplishment, right? Yeah.

Yeah. But, you know, I don't want to keep talking about myself, you know. No. Well, what else? What else happened this past year? We are reflecting because it's your birthday. We'll get to America in a second. No one cares. But I want to unpack this a little bit because it's interesting to me. I think we should talk about like our parents' journey because you kind of mentioned that before. Are you trying to change the topic? Yeah.

Okay, whatever, man. Whatever. He's still trying to change his mood. No, no, no. Okay, okay, okay. We're not gonna, we're not. It came out of left field. It was like, we're talking about you and all the parents coming. I'm like, so coronavirus. Yeah, we'll get to it. No, this is, we'll get to it. You're trying to, like, we've switched roles.

We've switched roles, right? On other podcasts, I'm like the guy that just pulls out something from another. I don't want to talk about this just to kind of pick on you in the context of you. It's just more of a metaphor because you started the show by saying, wow, since the first episode, we were only drinking like fucking Balvenie 12, like cheap shit, right? Now we're drinking Balvenie 25, right? And you're like, we've done a lot on the show. So do you consider...

you know, having a podcast, like getting everything set up, going through this journey. Do you consider that an accomplishment? Like, will you ever be satisfied as a person or like, is there some kind of like higher standard for you? That's a fair question. Um, the short answer, direct answer is no, I don't think I'll ever be satisfied knowing myself. Um,

But I think there is a level, a degree of satisfaction. Satisfaction. I'm fucking, this fucking whiskey man. I'm blaming everything on whiskey. But there's a degree. We've got a school psychologist outside if you need to. But there's a degree in which you can be satisfied, to which you can be satisfied, right? So you're never going to achieve full, like you're never going to be like fully like, okay, I have no more, nothing else to do. I'm fully happy. Right.

But there's a certain degree level you can reach. And I just feel like that's what I'm talking about. Like, I feel like I'm not at that level where of course there's always more to do. There's always more to improve on, but there's a certain level you can kind of be like almost content with maybe. And I'm not there. That's all I'm saying.

I think you've done a lot this year. And I personally have mentioned this before. It's like, I really, like, I really appreciate the energy and inspiration you put into this podcast and you've turned it into something. And I feel really lucky to be part of it. And there were, you know, we always talk about there are parts of the journey where we weren't sure where we're going, if we had the, you know, like the energy to sustain this.

but it's something I look forward to every week. And I feel like it's a major accomplishment just like in terms of me building relationships with you guys and then having a, like a voice that we can share with other people. So then I think, you know, when we reflect on like what's happened in the year, um, you know, maybe we can look at it as like, what have we learned this year? What lives have we touched? And, um,

What changes have we made and just kind of reframe it and not so much kind of like this unattainable standard of accomplishment. Um, the, the part of the reason this is coming up, like this word accomplishment is, um, that we at work, I had to write my own like self review. Um, and we had the very tight timeframe this year. Oh no. Yeah, I know. Eric has to write his own self review. I had to write a self review and I had to go through everything, but the,

The good news this year is just because like there's so many things that happen and we're all sensitive to like, you know, how long this process would take because they were just really busy. So there was like a limit into how many like characters you could use. Right. And that just made it a lot easier. So I couldn't go crazy on it. I just had to really focus on what happened. And it's just, you know, the general format is just sort of like, what did you learn? What are your accomplishments this year? And when you really go through and you clean up your thought, you're like, wow, a lot of shit happened this year.

you know, a lot of stuff happened. I learned a lot. I learned a lot about myself. I also learned like opportunities where I can improve myself. And, you know, there's people that support you. So I, you know, going back to this podcast, it's like just doing something every week. We talked about this on that one, the subtle art.

It's like doing something. We like actually did something. Yeah. We, by doing something we're learning and every week we learn something new. I think it's just really, I think that's a major accomplishment. And I just looked up what accomplishment means. It just means that some, something that you've done successfully, right?

And so like, I just try to remind myself like every morning, like just to be grateful. So count your blessings, I guess is the, that, that cliche. But, um, cause you're like, you're only here for a certain amount of time, so you might as well enjoy it. Well, this podcast is definitely a product of the do something principle, right? That we talked about in the solar of not giving a fuck. Um,

And if you're not clear what the do something principle is, I encourage you, you know, any listeners to kind of listen to that episode. But I mean, this podcast is definitely a product of that. It's just like, okay, you know, we don't really know what to do, but we need to do something. We need to keep moving.

Don't stand still. Otherwise, you're going to die. Just keep moving. It can be anything. It can be something big. It can be something small. Just do something and learn from that. And who knows where that will take you, right? Just connect the dots like we've always said. And this podcast...

is that, I mean, you know, was never a project where we were like, Oh, like we had any sort of like grand vision for us. It's like, okay, let's do something. Oh yeah. Podcast. That might be fun. Let's try that. Well, I think that was the result of the conversations we had because in the beginning we were not moving forward. We were just brainstorming constantly. And what was the reason for the brainstorming is because we wanted to run out, get out of the gates immediately successful. Yeah.

You know, like everything was perfect. Like our topics were great. Our presentation was great. You know, the market demanded what we wanted, what we were saying. But then we stopped and we're like, hold on. You know, actually, Justin was the one that really like took the, you know, took the lead on this was like, OK, let's let's not overthink this.

which is funny coming from what we're talking about you. Um, let's not overthink this. Let's just record, let's just do it and just put it out there. And then let's just make this a habit. Let's just do it. Right. And then we were like, Eric and I were like, well, okay, I guess, you know, we struggle with the lack of structure. Yeah. And, and it was like analysis paralysis. Cause we needed to have like a firm structure. Like, what are we going to talk about? What is the arc of the conversation? What's the narrative we're going to tell? And, and,

And it was uncomfortable. It was really uncomfortable. And then like, you know, we didn't know how long the episodes would be. You in your head, because you had already started thinking about this. So you had this narrative arc in your head. And so there was a trust that we ended up developing that, okay, like Justin knows like how to land the plane at the end. We're not going to have like a five hour Joe Rogan show. Right. And then once we started getting guests, um,

we started finding like common themes. And so there was, there became maybe not a grand vision, but there was some semblance and some threads of a vision. And now like after 40 something episodes, you know, we have written down what some of our goals are and eventually we'll probably have something that's a little bit more visionary, but like learning, trying to invite like really cool people on the show, like hearing their perspective, like combining this Western and Eastern sort of perspective, um,

All of these things are like key themes, right? And then also just like not standing still and keep editing our perspectives. And so I think those things crystallized based on the do something. We did enough things where we started having a point of view, you know, on things. Yeah. I mean, there always comes to a point where you have to stop talking and just start taking action, right? And that's always been our problem. And I think based on what I see, I think a lot of people kind of get stuck in that is that

you're always stuck in this talking stage. You're always stuck in the brainstorming stage, the quote unquote preparing stage or the research stage, right? And while all those things are important, at a certain point, it starts becoming just an excuse because you delay from actually doing it. So there needs to be some sort of just like popping the bubble, breaking out of your own head and you'd be like, okay, let's just do it now. It might not be perfect, right?

We don't have the whole plan. We don't have the whole vision. We don't have everything detailed down and written down. We haven't covered everything. But at a certain point, you have to be like, just do it. Otherwise, it'll never get done. And yeah, that's what I'm really proud of. Otherwise, that test will never be taken. You know, it'll never finish. But if you look at, yeah, if you look at, if you go listen to our like first couple episodes,

I cringe at those episodes because they're just like so fucking horrible. I revisited recently as well. Really? They're really bad? It's a little cringy. Yeah, I'm really, like for me at least because I'm like, I'm just like fucking, I sound like such a douchebag. Um,

So, like, just from that, you can tell. I don't know if that's changed, but... Yeah. But I'm proud of that. If anything, you've doubled down. But you know what? Like, there's no learning without doing. And, like, there are parts of my life where I've started applying the do something principle because I've always had analysis paralysis. I've always just overthought things. Yeah.

And there are parts of my life where I haven't yet applied to do something thing. So it was really interesting. I'm caught in like these two worlds, like definitely I've moved forward in some parts of my life and I'm really happy about that. I just get satisfaction out of like getting past this initial, like getting out of the gates and,

whatever your speed is and then just doing it and not worrying about the perfection. Right. Because like, as sort of that earlier comment, the Buddha thing, don't strive for perfection because your attachment to that is the cause of your suffering, you know, but there are definitely, because it can never be attained. Yeah. It can never be attained and you're attached to the result. And so like you're, you're focused. It's like, it's like that test you're taking, you're trying so hard to get the perfect result that you take yourself out of the flow of actually doing it and having fun. And like, I,

I truly believe that if you really have fun at something, you'll be really good at it.

Like whether you're a guitarist or pianist, like if, if, because if it's fun and you enjoy it, then you'll do it a lot. And if you do it a lot, like you'll learn from every time you do it. And so it's really fascinating. It's like, I'm looking at parts of my life where I haven't yet, you know, applied the do something principle and there's something kind of holding me back. There are truly a couple of areas that I want to move forward on. And I hope that this, you know, this year is the year. Cause like, I know what the,

result is if you do do something and you do get past like your fears right and this also goes back to the fear setting exercise from Tim Ferriss which I think is really powerful because it's not so much that creating a plan of what you want to do it's kind of removing the obstacles of what's keeping you from starting yeah yeah because yeah that's so right because you're never going to have the perfect plan

And there's always going to be more you can rethink. And, you know, as time goes by and things change, there's always going to be more you can add or edit to your plan. So it's never going to be perfect, right? The key is it's not about the perfect plan. It's about removing the obstacles to actually even doing that plan. Yeah. No matter how imperfect it is. I think that's exactly what you said.

That's, yeah. I think most people need to think about it from that angle. It's about removing the obstacles. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Cheers. Cheers. All right. We're done with the show. We were talking about like it being July 4th and stuff like that. Right. And, and what it means, you know, for us, this is before we started recording. We were just talking like, you know, July 4th, we're in China. Independence Day is a big holiday in America. Yeah.

And what does it mean? What does that really mean, Independence Day, as an American? What's the Chinese term for Independence Day? 国庆节 So 7 月 4 号是美国的国庆节 There's a lot of angles on this. So there's the angle of...

what is July 4th? Like in American terms, right? Like what is like, what do people do? Like you see some little here and there celebrations of some kind of, uh, Western restaurants here. Like cages has, um, you know, like kind of hot dog eating competition. So there's the actual festival that represents, uh,

like this holiday every year. There's also the memories that we have growing up. Um, you mentioned like the fireworks and then there's also just the, the notion of like, what does it mean to be American? Well, I mean, let's share real quickly, like what it's like, you know, what's a typical way of celebrating independence day in America. Right. Um,

I just think of the barbecues. Well, barbecue is a big one, right? People like to barbecue. Yeah. Barbecue outdoors. And then like, you have hamburgers, hot dogs. You have like the fireworks. So July 4th is in the summer, obviously. Yeah. So then people will go out in the back of there. And so like a lot of Americans with all the space we have,

we would invite our friends and we would be outdoors on the patio in our houses and we would then start grilling stuff, right? Hot dogs, steaks, burgers, burgers. Everyone got together beer. Yeah. A lot of beer. Even Chinese, like even Chinese Americans, like we, you know, we probably have some Chinese food up in there. Right. But like it would just be like a holiday. It's like, it's like May holidays or something. But, but,

But everyone would go and grill in the backyard. Almost like 100% of people. Yeah. And if you don't have a grill in your home, then usually there's some other public area that people would take over and start grilling. Yeah. That's a very Independence Day thing. And what does it mean, right? Like apart from the actual history of it, but like what are the values associated with July 4th? Like family, right? Family, you know, tradition, right?

Just this notion of being American. National pride. National pride. It's encompassed by a sense of national pride mixed in with just using that as an excuse to fucking eat a lot of food and drink a lot of alcohol and just have a lot of fun. Wear red, white, and blue. Wear red, white, and blue. Yeah. Right? I mean, growing up,

It was a really fun holiday. Yeah. Like, it was really fun. Especially as you get older, I think. Because it's like we just said, the barbecues and the get-togethers. Yeah. It's summer and, you know, maybe some pool parties. And it's like, yeah, it's an excuse to have fun. Exactly. In terms of, like, the fun factor, it's probably one of the most fun holidays you can have in America. Yeah. People often work. Better than Halloween. People often work. Well, and the thing is, like, I mean...

People are brought together, right? Like that is, that's the holiday where everyone comes together. And I think that's the cool thing about being American is that like, whether you're Chinese or you're like, you know, Hispanic, you're black, African-American, whatever color, whatever race, wherever your parents came from, wherever you were even born, right?

And that moment, there's this collective feeling of, okay, we all kind of identify with this really great place, this really great nation. And there's all these, the symbolism involved, you know, and like, we're all sort of together. And like, um, this year is the first,

Well, we haven't been in the U.S. during July 4th. But this year is like the first year, not to kind of like be a Debbie Downer, but this year is like the first year where I feel like that's just all kind of falling apart for everyone. Oh, for sure. It's really kind of sad. For sure. For half the population. Yeah. I mean, for half the population, they're still like, fucking yeah, you know, fucking July 4th. But like, yeah, I mean, obviously we don't need to repeat this, but like everything is so up in the air. America's a mess right now. Everyone knows this.

So yeah, it's like, it's kind of awkward this July 4th, I guess. It would be like a very awkward time there because like, I bet people still want to celebrate just for like tradition sake. But there's so much going on. But there's, yeah, there's so much underlying. Logistically, you can't really come together because of the COVID. And then it's just kind of like the whole country is divided. And then you have a leader that's literally trying to tear the country apart. Yeah. It's,

Yeah. No, it's bad. November, man. Exactly. Exactly. I can't wait. I can't wait for the November elections because it's going to be the greatest reality show ever. Yeah. Like, you cannot write a more dramatic buildup to a reality show. Yeah. Like, you couldn't imagine it. You couldn't write one. But that's also so American. Well, right. Hold on. Hold on.

Justin, brilliant point. You cannot write a better reality show. And if things sort of like, if everyone calms down,

with their values, enough people, this will be the ultimate reality show and it will be the ultimate irony. You're fired. You're fucking fired. Yeah. No. Oh, man. Nice one. But The Apprentice, right? That was a show. No, but imagine before any of this happened. Imagine like three years ago, right? Imagine three years ago. Oh, no, no. Well, imagine before Trump got elected, right? And you were a screenwriter. You were a writer. Yeah.

And you wanted to pitch this major Hollywood studio, this script you had written for this show or this movie, right? And you walked into the meeting and you were pitching them the basic premise of this movie. And you were like, okay, so I wrote this. So it's about a nation...

And there is this reality TV show star who's just really divisive and this outward person who's never really been in politics. He goes and runs for president. And he wins the presidency. And the country becomes so politically divided that there's so much conflict within the country. And then at that same time, there is a world global viral pandemic that breaks out.

And so they have to come to terms with that. And there's a bunch of drama that goes on with that. And then at that same time, there was also an outburst of the probably like one of the biggest racial protests in American history.

going down. You know, there's a Black Lives Matter movement. There's this whole thing that just like this like spark that just burst. And even before that, and there was Me Too. Yeah. And then before that, there was Me Too. And then, and then there's this like this Cold War also happening with China. Right? And between the United States and China. Like,

And Russia has been trying to hack the results of this reality show. There's so many things you can mention, right? There's so many other little tidbits, gems you can put in there. And so you were to pitch this to the studio heads, they would probably look at you and be like, you have a great imagination, but we need this to be a little more grounded in reality. We need you to scale down a little bit because it's a little too unbelievable for a movie. Yeah.

Meanwhile, they'll come back and be like, can you make Independence 3 instead? Because that's a little bit more believable with aliens destroying the world. I think that's a little more believable. Yeah. Independence Day 3. That's more believable. Can you make another Armageddon movie? Because that's a lot more believable. Like,

How crazy is that? Like they would probably actually say that, but this is reality. So here I just had based on the composite of what you guys just shared and like how we had this kind of shared that imagine. So like whether it's Biden or whatever. Right. And then they give the speech. Right.

And the first thing he says is... Inaugural speech? No, not the inaugural speech. Like when the results... No, the results are announced. Okay. And like he wins. The other guy wins. And the...

And he only has two words. He's like, hello, America. He's like, Donald Trump, you're fired. I fucking really hope he says that if he wins. That would be, that's the drop the mic moment, right? That would be. That's like. You'd be dropping the mic. Oh,

That mic would be the size of Texas. That is so brilliant. Yes. He said it. Oh, you should write their campaign, whoever the campaign manager is, send them a note. Tell them to say that. How do I do it? Time front page, right? Time front page. It would be like, you're fired. Yeah, you're fired. You would probably... Oh, that's so brilliant. You need to tell them that. No, no, I'm serious. You need to tell them that because they get letters all the time. They get emails all the time from civilians. Yeah.

You should tell him that.

That would be, that would probably even convert some Trump supporters because Trump supporters would be like, oh damn, no he didn't. Okay, I like this guy. Okay, I, you know, okay. I see you Biden. I see you. The two most famous. You're fired? Biden. He's all senile and shit. He'll be like, you're fires. You know what it is? It's like before the fire, he goes up there, he wins everything and he's like, he's like fucking senile. It's like,

Who won? Who won? And he's like, you won. Like, who's me? And they're like, okay, look, asshole, you got two words. You just need to get it right. Two words. You're fired. He's like, you're hired? And then he goes up, you're hired. But that's what's funny. It's like, you know, I mean, I can only imagine the Chinese government sitting back and just watching America and being like, this is why we control everything. Yeah.

Well, it's a reality show for them. They're just laughing. They're just having a good time. The whole world. Yeah. I mean, the whole world is looking at America and being like, okay, what the fuck are you guys doing over there?

It's a joke. They're trying to wrap their minds around it. And so are we in many ways, right? It's a joke. And so are the American citizens. I've talked to my friends in the States in recent times. They're trying to wrap their minds around like, what the fuck is happening? But just like you said off camera before, I mean, yeah, of course, in our circle of friends, we're all going to be talking that way. But there's a huge...

Huge number of followers that do not think that way. That if they were to hear what we're saying right now, they'd be like, you liberal assholes. You know what I mean? Antifa. Well, Trump has such strong support. I don't know what the numbers are, but the people who do support him are so united in that. You know what I mean? They're so... Do you think is it because that Donald Trump symbolizes...

for lack of a better description, a powerful white male that kind of, I don't know, speaks to their white agenda, if I'm going to speak boldly in that way.

Oh, no, man. Obviously, there are other cultures that I mean, different races that support Trump as well. But I feel like one of the big narratives that I mean, media outlets or even just regular people tend to talk about with Trump is that he's racist. He's he's quite extremist, but he tries to hide it at times and other times he's really straightforward with it.

And then you have that idea of, well, maybe if he's speaking, like, for example, what was the recent news about him sharing a video that had this white power guy in the background? And he's like, yeah, people like this are great. Well, look, I can't speak to what the media is saying about him in terms of all that. I can only speak to in terms of because I know several Trump supporters. I personally know them.

Non-white. No, they're all white. Okay. But I know them. And they're very much pro-Trump. And none of them are racist at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? They're not racist people. In fact, they're my friends. I like them. They're good people. And they're not racist at all. But for some reason or another, I never really had any in-depth conversation with them about it. But they're very pro-Trump.

So you think they're still pro-Trump after the handling of COVID? You know, a lot of this, like, basically barely veiled...

Well, here's the... You know, racist stuff, right? Like, he basically issues racist stuff online now. Like, it's very thinly veiled, but he just adds one, you know, thin layer of veneer so that he can sort of disavow himself. But see, here's... It's very passive-aggressive. Here's the problem. Here's the problem, right? So, to your point earlier, Howie, the point I'm trying to make is I think there's... I think...

the media likes to play the race card and the narrative is like, he's racist, he's divided. And in many ways, based on his actions and the things you see him say, it is, you know, like he called the coronavirus, the Kung flu and his like big speech and like Arizona or something. I don't, I forget where they were, Oklahoma or wherever. Yeah. That fucking speech. Um,

So, like, yeah, like, obviously he does some stuff that's like, okay, that's kind of fucking racist. And you see how divisive he is. So, I'm sure there is a portion of his following followers that are, you know, kind of racist, right? Yeah.

But what I'm saying is there's got to be something much more than that because all the people that I know that approach Trump are not racist whatsoever. So there's got to be something more. And I think it plays towards like they just see him as like kind of like anti-system. Like he's like just breaking the mold. He's not PC. He's not...

He's not within, he's not conformist in that sense. And I think people kind of just like, whether they like him, like agree with him morally or not, they like what that symbolizes almost. And then there's another portion of the population going to what you just mentioned, Eric, in terms of like, oh, do they still feel that way? Even after like, you know, his whole mishandling of everything that's been going on recently. And I think there is, unfortunately, I think there is probably a big,

population of Trump supporters that if you were to really honestly ask them and hook them up to a lie detector and ask them, grill them on questions about Trump and like if they agree with how he handled this and blah, blah, blah, and his moral, morally and everything like that, like they would probably say no. But I think like when you're, because Trump has been so attacked over the years, so attacked, right? By media, by late night hosts, by everybody, right?

that the people who are pro-Trump have dug their heels so deep in supporting Trump, being like, "Fuck you, I'm gonna support him." - Like no matter what. - No matter what.

that even if he can almost do anything right now, almost do anything right now, and they would still support him because they're not going to admit that they were ever wrong in that choice. You know what I mean? So it's almost like a line in the sand now and it has nothing to do with his policies. It has nothing to do with his actions. It has nothing to do with how he handles things. It's more about, I made this decision. You guys were all against me

And so I'm gonna stick to this decision and I'm never gonna admit like I was wrong because that's hard to do. Like imagine, right? Imagine if I was like saying something for all these years and you guys were like, "Fuckin' you're so wrong." And we almost got into heated debates about it.

And I was like, no, man, I'm fucking... And I stood my ground for so long. I'm never just going to one day come to you. Well, it'll be very hard for me to one day come to you because of your ego, of like, you know, your face. To be like, oh, I was completely wrong. No one's ever going to say that. Or even admit it, you know? Well, Robert Cialdini wrote a very classic book called... It's called The Power of Persuasion, I think. Or Influence, The Power of Persuasion. It's one of the classics, right? In terms of like...

how, how people get persuaded or how people buy into stuff. And there are a bunch of principles like reciprocity, social proof, some of these principles, but the one that I think kind of relates to this is consistency. And so what, so like people act in ways that are consistent or they want to act in some ways that are consistent. And so, um,

That's how you sell people things sometimes. It's like you ask them questions that allow them to validate something and then you present something that's consistent with that and they can't really turn back. It's like, oh, you're a fit guy, right? Oh, you like that, right? Okay. So you pigeonhole them into this. And then you pigeonhole them a little bit. And so this notion of consistency, people will then want to be consistent and commit to whatever they said before. And so it's kind of like what you're saying, they're digging in their heels a little bit, right? Especially then when...

people make it public. So like I voted for this person. I talked to all my friends. I supported this person. And so my credibility is sort of on the line. You've done it so publicly, like you can't, like you're going to live or die with that now. You know what I mean? But I think he's, I feel like he's probably desperate and I'm just kind of speculating, but I think he's lost some of those people just because, you know, after four years, like as the apprentice, like, you know, running a company, like, you know, people can see your flaws.

And so, you know, you went into it and you're absolutely right. Like they were anti, he was like kind of anti everything. Like he, he was like the, you know, the, the devil, the ultimate devil's advocate, right? Like he was the guy that was going to just overturn all of this bullshit, all of this bureaucracy. But, you know, after four years, people see like he has created his own, he's part of the bureaucracy. He's part of the system.

He is more in the system than anyone else. So he talked a really good game. He's going to lose those people. And so now he's getting into more extremist kinds of things and trying to tap into some more demagoguery. I think he's become more racist in his term. In the beginning, it was just more like, okay, anti this, anti that, anti these politicians, et cetera, et cetera.

But then over time, I think he's sort of lost some of that base. And so now he's trying to tap into other areas and dividing people. I'm actually kind of an example of that. In the very beginning, I don't know if you guys noticed this, but even ask like our friend James, like in the very beginning, like, you know, in the group conversations, like this was when Trump first got elected.

like right when he got elected, I was in the camp of like, okay, let's give this guy a chance. You know, like everyone was ripping on him. Right. And it was like, this is like a farce. This is like ridiculous. I was the one. And I remember me and James were both like, look, he might be, he might turn out to be not bad. Like, let's give him a chance. Cause I'm, I personally, I won't, I almost liked the antihero. I like breaking the paradigm. You know, I like that. Right. I like a little bit of chaos, but,

And so I was like, "Hey, look, I think he might be getting a... He's not getting a fair shake."

And the media is just jumping on him and paying all of it. But let's see what he really does. Pay attention to his narratives. Even when I was playing devil's advocate with you on one of the episodes, I was like, well, let's look into the actual policies he's implemented. Let's like, beyond the tweets, the stupid stuff, let's look into the real meat of it. And he might not be that bad because there are other presidents before him that publicly, optically, they've been celebrated, they've been popular, but behind the scenes, they've been doing some real evil shit too, right? Yeah.

So I was like always in that camp of like, okay, let's give them the benefit of that. I was always like that. I was very fair to Trump for a long, long time. But I just can't do that anymore. The more I see it, and I watch news from multiple sources of news channels. I watch from the left. I watch from the right. I try to absorb as much news from as much varying different sources as I can. But it's all like...

It's all ridiculous. After now, there's no way I can give Trump the benefit of the doubt anymore. I just can't do that anymore. It's so glaringly wrong. You know what I mean? I just can't do it anymore. So I think I represent a portion of that population who are kind of like,

Trying to be fair to Trump, trying to give them the benefit of the doubt. But now I'm just like completely, I'm pretty anti-Trump now. Well, people were, I remember some of these conversations and people were attracted to this notion of like a rebel, especially in America, right? People always have been attracted historically to people that are rebels, that are not part of the system. They're going to buck the system. Like you look at some of the great presidents like Lincoln. I mean, like he went against the grain on,

on everything, right? Like he totally went against the grain. He did things that were incredibly unpopular. - Yeah, he was heavily criticized. - He presided over the civil war. I mean, he did stuff that is just incredibly-- - I mean, the country went to war because of it. There was a civil war because of how unpopular it was. - And Donald Trump positioned himself as this guy that was gonna shock the system from the outside. But as president, you've got a lot of responsibilities. It's no different than being CEO of a company. So you can talk a lot of shit.

You can talk all the shit you want. But in those four years, if you're a CEO and the stock market crashes or competitors come in, shit happened. He didn't, you know, like, and he had a good ride for a while. The stock market kept coming, you know, going up. But with the protests and with COVID, basically the business environment changed. And now it's plain as day to see his, you know, to see his response. And of course, these things are so...

they're just so widespread like COVID, right? It's not like isolated. It's an invisible fucking, you know, virus that's impacting every corner of the world. As long as there's people, you can't hide from it. You cannot fucking hide from it. No one can hide from it. And all kinds of, you know, you have doctors, you have like WHO, all kinds of global organizations that generally want to do the right thing. And,

you can really see the actions of people that want to help people. And then, you know, this, this megalomaniac, like psycho essentially. Um, and who is also by the way, incompetent. And then, so like, I think it's as plain as day right now. So it's, it's, so now he has to go into this whole other population of extremists and sort of play that up and Trump that up. Yeah. So, but you know, what's not helping though, in my mind is, is the media, even the,

the left media, which is like very anti-Trump, obviously, they're not helping in the sense that like, I think the more you attack Trump, the more anti-Trump, the more clear, the more obvious you're being about like your own emotional resentment towards him or feelings towards him.

the more you're not going to convince anybody. You know what I'm saying? Because even me, when I look at a lot of the news right now, and they're so clearly trying to just rip on Trump, trying to delegitimize him, trying to discredit him, where it's no longer just objective, fact-based reporting. Like, here are the facts. Make up your own mind, given these facts.

It's more like, here is what I think. Here is what we as a news channel think about him. And these are like our very personal kind of biases towards him. The more that comes to play, which is so clear now, so obvious now in all media channels,

the more you discredit that source because it's like, well, clearly you're so biased. So if you're anti-Trump, you're never going to listen to that. You're just going to disregard all of that because any of what they say already is discredit delegitimized to you. Right. So it's this lack. And I think it stems from like a lack of trust, both between the people and the media, but also the media and the people. I don't think the media trusts the public anymore because,

to think reasonably for themselves and to exercise some critical thinking and to be like, okay, we're gonna trust the public enough where we can just report the facts without the spin, without the bias. Here are the facts.

Now, based on these facts, make up your own mind about them or make up your own mind about this situation. Here you go. There's no longer that trust. So the media outlets feel like a need to be like, we can't just say the facts. We have to like narrate it to a point where it's like it's so clearly just fake.

You know what I mean? For them to get it, to get it through their heads, right? So there's this lack of respect that people can think for themselves anymore. It's a little bit of desperation. They're just so in a panic, right?

And they're so desperate and they're so emotional that they just can't let the facts stand for themselves. But I think that would actually, because if you actually let the facts, particularly in this situation when we're talking about Trump, if you just report, I think they would have more success if they just reported the facts. Because now they've gone so far off that spectrum, like on one side of that spectrum, where they're not even reaching the crowd that they should be reaching anymore. Yeah.

because it's only like pro-Trump people, or no, anti-Trump people that are gonna be listening to MSNBC, CNN, these kind of media outlets. So those are already people that agree with you on your side. You don't need to tell them anything. There's no point. They already agree with what you're saying, right? Who you need to reach

are the people in the middle who are on the fence and hopefully the anti like the very approach on people and those people are never even going to bother to listen to you anymore because you've already like lost credibility in their minds it's a fair point but that's not their goal of course and i mean the the goal of the media probably to some extent is to you know to enrage and to create outrage so that the dollars so they can monetize yeah but i mean kind of switching gears i think

um you know we've talked about it like um you know trying to wean ourselves off of like social media and wean ourselves off of this type of media where it's just politicized and they're trying to create emotional outbursts um and then going back to books i guess the other thing in terms of media is like i just try to you know i i don't i think i mentioned on previous episodes i don't like um

I don't look at CNN anymore. I actually read Fox News more than I do CNN. I will reconsider my New York Times subscription, but I think they have some good cultural content. But I signed up for Economist.

Whether or not they're biased or not, just the fact that it's based on another continent just helps create some distance. So whether you create distance by reading books that were reading 3,000 years ago, or whether you create some distance in terms of choosing publications that are published from another source outside of the U.S., these are things that you can do to kind of inoculate yourself a little bit, right? Well, to that point, this is an interesting question now.

You're talking about distance, right? And how distance brings you a certain sense of clarity and almost objectivity because you're distanced from it. Do you feel... Because in a sense, we are distanced from what's going on in America, right? Like we talk about it all the time, but we're distanced from it in terms of physically, we're distant. And second of all, because we're not living in that society currently...

So from a day-to-day impact on us, it doesn't have that immediate impact in terms of our daily lives because we're living in a different society right now. Emotionally, we're attached to that place, but physically and like in terms of day-to-day impact, we're not.

So do you feel like that gives us more clarity almost because we can kind of detach ourselves a little bit to a degree and look at it kind of more or try to look at it more objectively than if we were just living there and we were like so emotional about it because we're so tied to what's happening? I think you're going to definitely lose some of that clarity being far away because you're not there in the cut. Yeah.

So I have conversations with friends in the States where I'm just saying, I'm like, look, I'm reading different news outlets and I understand what's going on right now. But I asked him like, what's, what's it really like on the ground, you know? And then I get like different stories and perspectives and,

And, you know, which is different than what I'm being fed from the media, you know. So, I mean, I think being away from everything, you can maybe think like, yeah, we can maybe have an unbiased perspective maybe. But, I mean, I think you really have to be there, you know, and form your own opinion based off of actual, you know,

interaction and an experience but there is such such a thing as being too close to something right like like we know this from working on different things like if you work on something and you've been like working on it for like days and days and months and months you get so close and so caught up in it that you end up losing perspective on it and you need to get someone's fresh perspective fresh eyeballs to look at and be like okay how does this look to you right we always do that well okay so i

Let me backtrack for a second. So it's almost like, I'm just going to use an example I had, like basic example of a conversation I had. I was talking to a friend and I was like, okay, so, you know, we've talked about this a few times on the podcast where we try to read and watch different news outlets. Just like you said, you're watching like Fox News and New York Times, Economist, stuff like that. So they kind of run the gamut, right?

So I'm talking to my friends and be like, yeah, I've read this and I read that. You know, I can see that's pretty much a shit show. I mean, that's the only conclusion I can get out of it. What's it really like for you? You know what I mean? And so that's just another source, you know, where you can maybe form an opinion.

So that's all I'm saying. I think it's just like being far away, yes, you can probably see things a little bit clearer because you're not heavily influenced by the nonstop, I guess, whether it's in person with your friends or family or work.

the news outlets being in the cut but being far away yeah maybe you can be able to think and see and really you know ponder about what's really what's really factual what's not and and form some perspective you know it's a it's a good question it's actually um there's two sides of it right and and you kind of like looked at it from one angle but there's two angles to it so

You talked about this notion of being too close to something, right? I mean, people, if you take a book and you put it all the way up to your eyes, you won't be able to read the words. You read one word at a time. Or you look at an impressionist painting and you go up too close and you see a Monet and all you see is a bunch of dots.

Right.

you aren't able to connect emotionally to what's really happening on the ground and you have to have that conversation, right? So when you bring both those sides together, there's a famous samurai, Miyamoto Musashi, right? He was like the most badass Japanese samurai ever. He killed like hundreds of people, never lost a battle. He's also a philosopher. And he said in strategy, it's important to see distant things as if they were close.

and to take a distant view of close things. So I think both of you are absolutely right. And what we call this in business is just zooming in and zooming out. And so you have to be able to be agile enough to understand what's actually happening on the ground. So if I'm looking at Black Lives Matter, I need to actually go in and take samples and understand and interview and talk to people who are on the ground and get different perspectives and then balance them out and then zoom out. And at the same time, if I'm in that environment

and something is happening, and I'm being barraged by messages, then I actually need to build some space. And whether it's physical space or it's mental space, it's important. And that's why you see Henry David Thoreau, all kinds of, like Goethe, all kinds of incredible philosophers and thinkers, they would retreat to their wooden cabin and then spend like six months there. But I think you have to do both. And so I think it's really the combination of the two.

And also probably just boils down to this simple question of does emotion cloud judgment? Right? Because when you're too close to something, that's when you get really emotional about it. Right? And rightly so. There's a lot of emotional things happening over there right now. So when you're too emotional, does that cloud your judgment? Right? And like you said, you know, the distance kind of metaphor is like I can be standing in my small little town.

of like whatever city I'm in, just like a little rural town. And I look down on the ground and I'm seeing the earth.

But I'm only seeing like where my feet are. Yeah. But if I'm like in like the International Space Station orbiting around the Earth looking at the Earth, I'm still looking at the Earth, but I can see the whole thing. You know what I mean? So you get a macro perspective of like what is happening as a whole instead of what's happening so locally to you. And that's a powerful metaphor. And like some of the recent films that have come out,

or some of the documentaries that come out where we actually can take footage from space when you look at the Earth. And when you look at that, and maybe some kind of virtual reality, like the astronauts that they've interviewed, and they're like, God, all of a sudden you see it's so much bigger. Like you're such a tiny little speck. It's like a philosophical kind of like...

epiphany you have about like your existence and life, you know, when you see it from that perspective. And I, I a hundred percent agree. And at the same time, like concurrently in parallel, um, you need emotion. And the reason you need emotion is that without emotion, um,

you won't be able to understand people and ultimately it's all about people and so emotion is our language to be able to like look at someone and build connection and see how they're feeling like i walked in today and i was like how are you kind of quiet you know like what's going on that's so true because like in my metaphor of just distance an alien can come and come to our earth and look at the earth and be like okay i see what's going on yeah but they wouldn't be able to understand because they can't connect emotionally to the human race right yeah

- Well, this conversation didn't go the way we expected. - That's how it always is though. - Good chat though. - Yeah, that's how it always is. - I don't know man. Everything is just so fucked up right now. And so it's just like, I know like we always talk about this stuff and like for the last kind of few episodes, I think, you know, it's kind of been on the same kind of topic.

But I don't know. How can you avoid it, though, as a thing? It's a huge part of our life. You can't avoid it. But it's the main thing that's happening right now in terms of entertainment globally, global political entertainment. What's happening in the United States is this constant source of entertainment. And I hate to use that word because I don't want to make light of what's going on over there. Obviously, it's very serious. But it's like...

It's such a shit show, you can't, like, look away from it. Like, it's hard to look away because, like, you're so caught up in what's going on. And almost, it's literally, like, almost every day something crazy happens. Yeah. But even something so stupid where the big debate is whether or not one should wear a mask. Oh, yeah. You know?

That's a literal debate. Yep. You know, and there are clear sides to that debate. And to me, it's mind blowing. And I've had, and I had a recent, small, but recent, but a small conversation with somebody that was pro anti-mask. And his perspective is that. This is in the States? Of course. Okay. Of course. Okay. Come on.

Yeah. And he's a Trump supporter and he's a freedom fighter. So what did he say? No, his basic thesis statement was the idea of wearing masks is not going to prevent you from getting sick.

And it's not going to prevent somebody else from getting COVID from you if you had it, because the mask itself is not as a barrier for the virus means that the virus needs to exist.

And to him, the virus does not exist because the idea of a virus is self-made. So it's because your body is like his analogy is it's like a garbage can. It's like you have, you know, you put garbage out and it's nasty and dirty and there's flies everywhere. But you can have the same garbage can without garbage in it. There's no flies in it.

so it's like yeah that doesn't make any sense what the fuck flies is like it is like the it's like it's like the virus right it's like attracted to garbage you know if your body is like so if you're a healthy body you can't get the virus yes the virus won't be so it's like healthy mind and it's like yeah and i'm like i'm like listening to this i'm like what so he's on a different planet but here's the thing he's on another planet but here's the thing it's like it's not just him

Oh, I know. Because it started on Facebook. We're having this conversation and there's a whole group of people that are just... So they don't believe anything the medical professionals are saying? Well, they're saying that it's like the idea of a virus is that it's getting blown out of proportion. So they think it's like a conspiracy? For control.

- So they think it's a conspiracy. - Yeah, yeah, sure. And there's a whole group of people that think that way. Or they think that the numbers are exaggerated. And it's not really that bad. But that's just a different form of conspiracy. - So in their mind, because it's not just the US that got hit by this virus,

it was a global thing. So in their mind, the whole world is in on this conspiracy. In their mind, they're not even, they're probably not even considering that. Like all they care about right now is because it is. So that means China was in on this conspiracy. Like, what does that mean? Like, I would have to speculate that,

When you're dealing with different groups of people like this, they're not actually using logical arguments. Yeah, exactly. You know what I'm saying? Does he listen to the show? I have no idea. If you're listening to the show, you know who you are. Pull your head out of your fucking ass, dude. But, you know... Wear a fucking mask. I try not to be judgmental here, but I just... I don't let this stuff bother me. I don't read this shit. It doesn't bother me. No, it doesn't bother me. I wouldn't even talk about it. I absolutely wouldn't even waste a breath on it because...

it's more of a philosophical question. I would zoom out a little bit, right? I wouldn't even like have, I think it's boring actually. I would just say that, you know, when you build a system, like, I mean, human beings can't live like in independent units. Like we would all die, right? Like we form societies. We've talked about this, like blueprint, right? So the question is like, we exist in different kinds of organizational systems. And so how much control do

do you give people and how much control do you exercise, you know, at the central level, you know? So I think, I think that's really the question, right? So like the reason this is happening in the U S is that we have, you know, relatively weak central control and it's partially,

partially due to the leader in place but also because of this the system that was set up from the very beginning between the you know the states and the federal government and they're you know like Hamilton versus Jefferson you know I think Hamilton was an advocate of like the you know stronger kind of federal system we call it federal here in China we call it central but

And I think it was Jefferson that was more of an advocate. And that was his own personal bias, right? I mean, I don't know how long-term he was looking, but he was an advocate of having stronger states. And so you see now in this structure with such a massive physical place and a weak structure so that you have people that are not credible, right? I don't want to judge them and say they're idiots. They're not educated. They don't have the background to be able to make the decision for themselves, right?

And they would not be able to develop the infrastructure for a country. There has to be certain engineers and really intelligent people, lawyers, doctors, whatever, that help build the infrastructure of society so that everyone can benefit from that. And then the rest of the society has to obey the rules. But the way that the U.S. is set up right now is that in a time of a pandemic...

you see the weakness of the system. Now, if you talk about like innovation and high tech or, you know, um, innovation and arts and music, maybe the system we have set up is conducive to that. But we clearly see, as we talked about in previous episodes, like this different systems. And, and the question here is how much control do you give people? And, you know, we don't need to go further on this particular topic, you know, just, but you can kind of, everyone can kind of do the math a little bit. Like we, why is in, in,

in China or, you know, places like this where we've had a much better response and why is it all fucked up in the U S? Well, I think it, because I've actually thought about this and in a way to simplify it, I feel like it really comes down to trust. It comes down to trust, not necessarily control because trust,

Every government only has in reality a limited control of the people. Now some appear to have more control. Some try to create more control than others. But in reality, there's only so much you can control. So I feel like what's happening in the US and like you say, the coronavirus current pandemic and everything is exposing the weaknesses is a lack of trust. People have no trust in

for governing bodies there. Whether it's local state governing bodies or federal, there's very, very little trust. So what happens when there's very, very little trust?

People start forming their own ideas when regardless of what the information or the professionals or the authority figures or whoever is saying. So there's no trust in the media. There's no trust in the government. There's no trust in leadership. There's no trust in the police policing. There's zero trust. So when there's zero trust, people are just going to be like, fuck it. I'm going to think what I think.

And fuck what you say. I'm going to do what I want to do because there's zero trust. Why should I listen to you? But they also get, I mean, yeah. And that's manifesting in many different ways, both racially through this pandemic, politically, there's just no more trust going on.

And if you want to draw parallels, I'm not saying that all the Chinese citizens trust the government here. I'm not saying that. But there is a different level and degree of trust in terms of if you tell me there's a virus and you say wearing a mask and you tell me to lock down, we're going to obey that because we trust that that's what's happening and we trust that this is what's going to get us over it. But over there, there's no trust. Like if you tell me to lock down, fuck you, I'm not locking down. I don't even believe there's a virus. Like there's zero trust. Wow.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, look, I would agree. I would say that you bring up a really good point with trust. I would say that I would put some nuance on it, right? I wouldn't probably go out and say, okay, there's no trust.

because that's a categorical statement, right? Or I wouldn't say that like no one trusts anything and this and that, right? There is levels of trust. And what we see right now in these movements in the US is that there's different levels of trust and trust is breaking down in certain parts. - That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying there's zero trust. I'm saying there's a lower level of trust. - So there's like a breakdown of some of the trust and trust is certainly a factor.

It's one of the factors and I think you bring up a really good point that it is one of the factors. The other thing is that is that is not a trust issue is that the actual president is not acknowledging that this is a fucking issue. So like that's not even a trust issue. That's his trust issue, right? So if the president would come out and be completely aligned with the Republicans and the Democrats with all the governors and Fauci and

like no one in China, no fucking Politburo guys are like, you know, right? - But that is a trust thing. Because Trump is not trusting his own government. He's not trusting the medical professionals, what they're saying. He's not trusting the media. He's always saying, "Oh, this media, fake news, fake news." - But that's one person. - It's all about distrust. - That's not a systematic trust thing on his part. I wouldn't say that's a trust thing. I just say that that's like incompetence on his part.

what you were saying about people not trusting there's different levels of distrust so it's a combination the control piece is huge because of course control is predicated on like the trust and and and the structure and the power structure right if there wasn't military there wasn't police you

It goes hand in hand, I agree. If you look at it from the people's perspective, it's probably trust. If you look at it from the hierarchical perspective, it's control. But contact tracing, the fact that every city you go to, the technology is also in place. And that is a type of control. So when I say control, I don't just mean like,

you know, can I add something political control? Okay, go on. They know exactly where you are. Every city you go to, you just scan and they know. So the, the, the ability to actually know who's infected and be able to trace that is a type of control that has also helped China avoid. Justin's ready to explode right now. Okay. No, you make a great point, but let me ask you, right? Let me ask you, and we're just having a friendly debate. Let me ask you,

You go back to like... It's your birthday, man. Anything you say. Anything you want. You go back to like technology. Okay. Someone's okay. You go back to technology and like the lack of like contact tracing that they have in the States versus here where you can scan your phone, you know where you've been. No, it's not you can scan your phone. It's you must scan your phone. You must scan your phone. But that technology was built in the first place. Like no one forced us to have this technology. We downloaded it ourselves and we actually enjoy using it. Like it makes our lives a lot...

very convenient on the day-to-day process like i'm happy we have that i don't on a personal it's not just you made the decision it's that the the the investment they had in the payment systems and the way the payment system works and social benefits and everything is that if you don't if you're not part of the system you'll die you won't die but you can opt out of the system you can't opt out of the system i can choose not to have to football yeah

If you're a Chinese citizen, you can't opt out of the system. You can't opt out. You can't buy anything. I agree that the system is optimized for that. It is definitely optimized. But what I'm saying is no one physically forced us to download these things. But that's the point. The point is what we have in China in terms of contact tracing, the technology, and this infringes on privacy to a certain degree. The lack of privacy. Yeah.

why the same technology is available to the United States if they wanted it.

And what the point you're making, they don't have it. So it's about control, you're saying. What I'm saying is, I think we're saying the same thing. What I'm saying is, why isn't that technology implemented in the United States? It's because people don't trust it. They don't trust that you can follow me where I've been for the last 30 days or a year or whatever it is. I don't trust that. I don't trust the government being, they're spying on me. So it all comes back to this lack of trust. That's why they won't accept technology.

this technology. They won't accept contract tracing. There will be riots and more protests in the streets if the government ever tried to implement that or like force that in the United States. Why?

because it's an emotional sense of distrust for everything, that the fact that you can trace me where I've been, right, that all my transactions is all digital and you can track that, it comes down to a lack of trust, which is why the West has not embraced this.

this technology over there, even though for a situation like this, like the pandemic, it can greatly help. Well, I think it's a combination of trust, but also the biggest difference between societal and cultural difference between the West and the East. You know, you have this sort of like selfish self-centeredness that kind of comes across in the West in general, like personal freedom, you know, my rights, you know, me, me, me.

In the East, in Asia, it's a little bit more about the group, you know? And, I mean, that goes hand in hand, right? Don't you think? It does go hand in hand. You know, because it's like, well, you know, you're so self-centered that, you know, I want to have my privacy as if some dude's, like, watching every step you take, you know, like in the back with the computer. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I don't know, but...

You know what I mean? It's just like... But that to me is a sense of distrust. Like that is distrust for the system. But that's a big argument that people have. I mean, you know, we are here. I mean, we're very...

aware that the fact that we're using our cell phone and we're you know using certain applications that obviously it's open right now and obviously that certain powers are able to access our information but we continue anyway you know we just do our thing anyway you know and that would never happen in America like and even though it might actually already is happening you know what I mean but I mean on surface it would not be accepted right

You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. It would not be accepted to be like openly like that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like, kind of like, it's just a total cultural difference, I think. Yeah. But the point I'm trying to make, you know, at the end of the day, I think we're all saying the same thing. Yeah, we're all saying the same thing. It's just semantics at this point, whether we're using it to label this or label that. We're both saying, we're all in agreement. What I'm saying is, I think the cultural thing, the control thing. Justin's just trying to win the argument. He's like,

He's basically, we're just trying to, like, I don't really have a horse in this race. I really think when you boil everything down, it's the slack of trust. I don't have a horse. That's what I really think. I don't have a horse in this race. It's your birthday. It's all good, dude. Well, there's no horse. There's no race to begin with. No. What I'm saying is. We're all riding with you. You have to make everything like a competition, dude. No.

There was never a race to begin with. What I'm saying is, I think we're all saying the same thing. But what I'm saying is, we all agree we're using semantics. I'm trying to clarify my point. And what it is, is I think it's the culture creates a lack of distrust. But that's why America... A lack of trust, not a lack of distrust. I mean, maybe through time, but for now, America will never be able to get to that level that we're at right now.

- No, nor do they need to necessarily. I'm not saying everyone needs to be the same. I'm just thinking what works for China won't necessarily work for the United States and vice versa. What works for the United States will not work for China. The biggest misconception is that we can copy and paste our cultural beliefs or governmental methods

or enforcements to like every place that exists and it's just like you know that's the idea of like american democracy yeah like american democracy like we're gonna go invade this country and implement our democracy there implement the way we know how to do things there and it's just gonna uh it's gonna work yeah if you're not a christian it never works you know yeah you everything is every every place is so different that you there's no such thing as copy and paste

And we talked about this in the Ben Cavender episode, right? In terms of market and economics and businesses and retailers coming in. You can't just copy and paste, right? Yeah. But anyway, we definitely let this conversation get a little out of hand. It always gets so political these days. Jesus. It does. It does. What's going on? You know, it's funny, though, because when we first started off doing this podcast, not

we were like, okay, let's never get political. Yeah, we talked about that. We talked about that. We were like, okay, as one of our things, as one of our principles, we will never get political because that's not what we're about. And we don't know about politics. But also, truth be told, I mean, I don't know about you guys, but I was never really into politics to begin with either. I'd never give a shit. But it's almost impossible not to chime in in these days because it's just so crazy. You know what I mean? It's like the best...

It's like Game of Thrones is happening right now. And so it's impossible not to watch an episode or two and have your comments on it. It's like the greatest reality show ever to take place in history happening right now in our lives. So it's like we have to tune in. What do you think, Eric? I think it's a good conversation. Cheers. Cheers. All right, let's end it there. Yeah, I think that's good.

All right. Yeah, man. Again, hope everyone is well. Safe. Stay safe. Stay safe. Whether you agree with what we said or not, it doesn't matter. Have your own thoughts. Form your own opinion. Yeah. I support that. Yeah, but do subscribe. Because we've got good shit for you. And also...

Leave a comment. Let us know what you want us to talk about. If you have thoughts on how we can improve the show or just thoughts on maybe guests you want to hear from or topics you want to hear us talk about, whatever. Just give us some more feedback so that we know how to proceed with the show so that it can be better for you. Let us know what you're thinking. Do you want us to speak more Chinese?

Yeah. Like, what do you think? Should we start a WeChat group? Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Because that's the biggest problem with us. We don't have a direct connection usually with a lot of listeners. I mean, some people do comment. There have been some very long-time listeners, very loyal listeners that have been commenting. I really appreciate that. But more people should comment. Let us know what you think. Positive, negative, just let us know. So we know how to improve the show and even ourselves. So...

Anyway, that's all I got to say for today. You guys? Happy Fourth. Have some hot dogs. Happy Independence Day. Happy Independence Day, America, to our friends in America. You had to add the America part. Well, you have to say Happy Independence Day. It's an American holiday. Well, yeah. So, anyway, I guess we'll end it there, guys. I'm Justin. I'm Hal.

What the fuck? Wow. I thought that was an honest mistake. That was an honest mistake. Wow. I'm Eric. And I am Howie. Where is your mind at right now? I don't know. Why do you want to be me, Eric? You don't want to be me. Anyway, guys. Peace. Peace. Bye. Love you.

Thank you.