#65. Kathryn Hill: 0 To 100
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What's up, everybody? Welcome back to The Honest Drink. I'm Justin. You can always reach us at thehonestdrink at gmail.com, Instagram, or WeChat. This episode is hosted by Howie, Eric, and myself. And our guest today is a professional trail runner. She is an elite level athlete from America, but she lives, works, and competes here in China.

And if you're into long distance running, you might have heard of her already. She kind of came out of nowhere, but has recently taken the China ultra running scene by storm, winning numerous ultra marathons this past year and crushing the record by over two hours in her most recent win. She also does workshops on mental toughness, which according to her is really what it's all about when it comes to running these insane distances.

So today, we talk to her about what it takes to be an elite trail runner, what helps her push through the pain, her mindset on competing and trying to be the best at something, and also how she handles her recent success and her newfound fame. Really, even if you're not a runner, you can take what she says and try it out in all facets of life. In many ways, it's a great metaphor for knowing what your goals are and not letting pain, setback, or your mentality stop you.

It was a real pleasure talking to her. She's crazy in all the best ways. So, without further ado, please give it up for Kate Hill. I love you.

It is. That's it. That's really good. Right? It's like candy. It's like caramel almost, right? Yeah. It's so nice. And you're right. It's not overbearingly sweet, but just sweet enough. This is so good. I'm officially saying it. This is my favorite sipper. Your favorite sipper. We're drinking today Plantation Rum, an old favorite of ours. XO, extra old. Right. 20th anniversary. It's vintage rum.

From Barbados. Anyway, it's fucking delicious. So we validated that this is actually genuine. It's the real thing. It's legit. Not a fake. No. Yeah, I don't think a fake would taste as good. I'm staring at it like a long lost lover. It's delicious. But why wouldn't a fake taste just as good? Maybe they... A fake never tastes that good. No way. It just messes with you. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe. Okay. I don't know. We're thinking too much about it. This is for real.

Are we rolling? Yeah, we're rolling. We're good. We're good. We're good. All right. Kate, welcome to The Honest Drink. Let's cheers again. Let's do this. Yes, please. Yes, please. All right. And we can drink as little or as much as you want on this show. Perfect. Well, you can drink as little as you want. We're going to enjoy this one. Without disclosing any names, we've had guests on this show that have passed out here before. Oh, wow. Yes, we have.

Hopefully I won't quite get to that point. Yeah. Well, I want to say Kate, um,

It's really nice meeting you. It's an honor. And really, congratulations on, like, you have a recent win? A couple, yes. A couple, right? Okay, I'm playing it down. Yeah. But the last one I read about was the ultramarathon. Was it Zhengnan? Yeah, yes. Zhengnan, the 100-miler. So ultramarathons. Okay, you and Eric are runners here. No, I don't really know. Hold on, hold on. Kate's a runner. I'm just a... You're just a tourist. I'm a jogger. I'm a jogger.

Runner. Definitely a runner. If you enjoy running, you're a runner. So what is an ultra marathon? So an ultra marathon is anything over a marathon. Anything over 42 kilometers is considered a marathon or an ultra marathon. And the one you won is how many? That one was 168 kilometers. So a full 100 miles. 100 mile marathon. Damn. So it's like four, almost four marathons, like back to back. Yeah. Jesus. And okay, I

I heard you crushed the record. I wouldn't say I crushed it. By two hours. Oh, only two hours? Only two hours? But the longer you go, like two hours for an ultra marathon that distance would be like maybe 10 minutes in a regular marathon. It just gets... But 10 minutes is quite a lot. It's a significant amount, right? Can I ask what the time was so I can get an idea? 24 hours.

So you ran straight for 24 hours? There's no breaks in between? Nothing? Nope, I never take a break. A lot of people do. Some people will sleep at the rest points. But... Not you. Not Kate. If you're in it to win it, then you just run straight through. In it to win it. I love that. I love that. Wait, so this was...

Was this your first time running 100 miler? Yeah, this was my first 100 miler. And you broke the record on your first try. Yeah, I was quite lucky. The conditions were right. Everything was working in my favor. I felt really good. I had a really good mindset. And I nailed my nutrition plan, which was always a struggle for me. What was your nutrition plan? Liquid diet.

So I'm one of those people, like, I can't eat anything when I run a cramp up. Even during my training this morning, I didn't even have food and I was cramping up. So I just relied on this powder. Completely legal, by the way. It's glucose. It's basically calories in liquid form.

So I just would drink that the entire time. Occasionally a banana here and there when I'm starving. Is it like tailwind kind of stuff? It's tailwind. Okay. What's tailwind?

It's the powder. Yeah, it's this magic powder. Liquid fuel. Yeah, liquid fuel. It's meant for endurance athletes who have stomach issues when they're running or cycling or whatnot. Wow. Yeah, we just got a batch. So Joseph, one of our temporary humans, shout out. Yeah, he just got a batch. They got great flavors. Yeah. What's your favorite flavor? Hmm.

I really like the lemon and orange one for the non-caffeinated. For the caffeinated ones, I would say green tea is my favorite one. It's the least sweet. And by the end of a race, you don't want something super sweet. But yeah, I'll have to ask you where he got it from since it's near impossible to get it in China. Oh, it's so hard. Oh, yeah. Hit me up. Yeah, we just got a batch. It took a while, though. We need a sponsorship now by Tailwind. Yeah. Well, I can help you with that. We just got a contact. Are you sponsored by them?

I'm not. I'm hoping someday. First, we have to actually make it legal to sell in mainland China. Right now, you can get it in Hong Kong. It takes a long time. It takes a long time, yeah. Yeah, it took me three months to get my last batch. Okay. Yeah, we'll figure it out. We'll see. I think it took probably a month. I'm not sure. Yeah, it depends mostly on FedEx and...

border control and flights and everything. There's a lot of factors that go into it. But honestly, Tailwind is the best thing I've ever used for running. Yeah.

Are you running professionally now? Is that, is this like your thing? Yes. Yes and no. Like I've only been running at this level for five months now, but just from in five months, I went from zero to 100. So I have a sponsor now. I have an agent. Um, I'm doing races where I get essentially I'm paid to run now. Um,

But it's not my full-time job. I decided instead of going all out and running to make a living, I'm trying to maintain a full-time job here, but still doing as much as I can as a professional runner. What went into that decision? Mostly a couple of factors. I really like stability. I like to know that my paycheck, I always will have a paycheck. I don't want the hate running thinking like,

I won't be able to buy money for food or pay my rent if I don't do well in a race. That will make running not fun for me. I also love my job. I work for Intersport. Even though I'm sitting at a desk all day, everything I'm doing is sports related and I'm learning so much. I have amazing colleagues, an incredible boss. I'm quite happy where I am.

Also, I don't want to be just running. I have so many other interests and I have a lot of friends who aren't even athletic and I want to be able to maintain my everyday life. Well, that's a really healthy mindset. I just want to back up for one second. I just want to clarify something. You just said that

You've been only doing this for five months. So two years ago, November 2018, I did my first trail race at 100K just as a joke. My friends were doing it, so I just signed up. Didn't train, didn't do anything. It was awful. It was the worst experience of my life. I did everything wrong. It was a mess. I completed it, though. And after I recovered, I'm like, actually, that was great.

sort of in a sick way fun. So I started doing more trail races. I never really ran. Like I would run occasionally with friends. So it's just like a fitness thing before. It was just like, you know, and you never really ran. Like you just ran once in a while. Just like, yeah, I did something called the Hash House Harriers, the drinking club with a running problem. So I mean, once a week, like 10K, maybe eight to 10K. But I would just keep on doing the races and I would do okay. A couple of times I even made the podium.

but I was okay. And I always got injured because I never did anything in between the races. But then last November, I started getting involved with Runners High and the Intersport Run Club. And I've

When I started actually training consistently and running outside of races, I really picked it up. But I couldn't really do anything with my running because of COVID. And so in May, I had my first race since training. Did really well, got second in that one. And then a month later, I did an 80K and won, beat all the men too. And I was just like...

wow, I've come a long way in running. And that's when people started reaching out to me. I got on the radar. That's actually after that race, I was invited to do the 100 miler as a sponsored race as an elite athlete. And with every race, more doors open. That is fucking insane. So my ears were not wrong, like what she just said. Yeah. Five months. Jesus. So...

People train all the time for this and can't achieve what you have achieved in just kind of

Picking it up in five months kind of off of a whim. Like, what the fuck? Like, what's your secret? Well, my secret was COVID-19, actually. So I worked in the tourism industry as well as fitness industry. I was working part time for a bodybuilding company. But fitness and tourism were the first hit and the hardest hit. I got back from vacation in January. The next day, I lost all...

all of my jobs. Like I was working one full-time job, two part-times, lost everything. Also went through a really bad breakup. And so just, I really thought I hit rock bottom. And so the only thing just to distract me from, I felt like I was going crazy and had no idea what my future was going to be like. I just started running just constantly.

Did all the trainings, just went all out, tried to enhance my fitness. I started with F45 and it was a distraction. Just it was the only thing during the day that got me out of my bed, out of my apartment. And it's all that training paid off. Just having the luxury to really focus on it. And I realized that not only was it just a distraction, I actually genuinely loved it.

So now I can't even imagine my life without running. - Wow. So like you didn't know you loved it before you started doing it? - Yeah, I mean, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the races, but prior to November, I would say 2017, I hated running. Like you asked me to do 100 meters, no, that was a death sentence. I was more into bodybuilding then. And so then for a year I tried to run casually with friends, focusing more being in the gym.

Did both horribly. You can't bodybuild and run at the same time. It doesn't work. And so I just started going more towards running. It's more social, more fun. But it was only purely social. I couldn't even imagine running on my own. But then I realized, wow, this is fun. So even though I wake up at 4.30 a.m. every day to train, I wake up and I'm excited. I'm like, okay, what's today's workout? Wow.

I feel like you must have some natural talent as well. Because otherwise, if you don't have that natural talent plus that passion for it, you're not going to be able to achieve what you've achieved. I was going to say. Oh, definitely. I have incredible genes. For a trail runner, most people think of runners very slender, very...

very petite sometimes. Well, no, I'm quite muscular actually. You're more built, yeah. Yeah, and I have a trail running body because you need overall fitness. You need, I think my bodybuilding, not think, I know my bodybuilding definitely helped with it.

I already had the muscle to sprint up a mountain. I had the endurance. You're using poles like this all the time. So you really have to work your upper body. Balance is everything, a lot of core work.

And so I've always been a more muscular person and I have really good genes. Like, I mean, my uncle has been in the Guinness Book of World Records for pushups. Wow. So yeah, we have a strong family. Wow. What was the record? 46,001 in 24 hours without leaving the pushup position. What? Wait, wait,

Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on for a second. Hold on for a second. 46,000? In one. In one, like, doing, like, without leaving the push-up position. And it took him 24 hours. Yeah, I think that's... I still have to ask him exactly how it is, but I think after 24 hours, he's like, I'm done. That's mind-blowing. Yeah. Yeah.

Kate, before I came out, I tried to squeeze in my little routine. I did 40. Nice. 40 is so good. I can't even do more than 10 right now.

46,000? Yeah, so we have pretty good genes in the family. Yeah, I would say. Yeah, I'm the only runner that I know of. Like, I started asking all my cousins and everyone, does anyone actually run? And everyone's like, no. But it definitely pays a part. Like, I'm a very fast roadrunner. I do quite well roadrunning. I have around a three-hour marathon time.

But I'm an even better trail runner. It's slower, but the endurance is there and I can sprint up a mountain faster than most people. - You leverage your strengths. - Yes. - And that brings me to a point, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like probably a lot of more traditional runners who just went into running from the get-go and take it seriously, I would assume they would probably focus more on the endurance part of it for long distance running, obviously.

And maybe less on actual strength training. But you coming originally from a strength training background, that actually gives you an advantage because on top of that, you also have the genes for endurance. Yes. But then you have the added benefit of actually having strength, which probably most people in the field never really kind of focused on. Exactly. Yeah. So if you look at a lot of the professional trail runners in China, they're

A lot of them, especially you've noticed this more with the woman, they're pretty built. Like, I mean, I probably am one of the most built trail runners because I really focus on it. I love gym work, but we're definitely larger than the average runner, stronger muscles, and

But that's not to say like even if you change dress for road, you can still be an incredible trail runner. One of the best trail runners in the world, Yao Miao, she was going for the Olympics in China for the marathon. And I just saw a video of her the other day and she's quite slender, but she's still one of the best trail runners. So I wouldn't say having the genes and being built is...

definitely a sure way to do well. It definitely does help though, but there are other ways, even if you have a completely different body type, you can still dominate the trail running scene. What about height? Does height play any role in that? Yes and no. I like to think it does for me. Like, okay, my friends would disagree. I used to say, oh, I'm so short, I never get hit in the head. I always end up with a concussion. Like half the races, I've hit my head pretty...

uh branches or something oh branches and everything i have quite a few scars on my scalp now a couple of them like what i had my uh first dnf in a major race a couple months ago because of a head injury your first what dnf did not finish so 30k into it i had to drop out um so i can't say it's my height's helping me anymore with that what else do you hit your head on besides branches branches rocks like trail running it's the most dangerous running sports um

So I'm waiting for the day until they require us to have helmets. Helmets. Yeah. Like I'm just picturing like almost like a wrestling helmet, something soft. Because in skiing, it requires helmets and skiing. And it's basically the same sport more or less. Instead of on skis, you're running though. Yeah.

Yeah, because you're on the mountainous regions, right? And then boulders and rocks can be falling from the top. Yeah, or tripping constantly. You hit your head. That's what happened when I DNF. I tripped and hit my head in a boulder with...

The one that gave me a massive scar on the scalp of my head. A branch caught my bag, pulled me back, and then I got stabbed. Yeah, so during that race, I actually crossed the finish line, face completely red because it's like...

Covered in blood. Yeah, just completely blood. So although I got first, they're like, we're sorry, we can't publish a picture. You'll scare everyone. It's like out of a murder movie. Exactly. It looked awful. My friends saw me and it's like, oh my God. A bloody girl running out of the woods covered in blood. That's right out of a horror movie. Yeah, that's exactly it. You're like, whatever it takes. Exactly. I'm like, I'm in it to win it. And everyone's like, no, no, stop. Let me clean it. Like whenever I'm at the service station, I'm like, oh my God.

So where do you rank right now in China overall? It's really hard to say. So the best way to compare trail runners since it's not like a marathon where it's the same distance, more or less the same elevation, right?

Every trail is completely different. You have different elevation, different terrain, different technicalities or things in your way like roots and potholes. No trail will ever be the same. So it makes it really hard to compare trail runners around the world. So ITRA, the Trail Running Association, came up with this algorithm which isn't perfect, but it's the best we have. And so to be a professional runner worldwide for women, you need 700 points.

So to make it fair for everyone, since points do expire and carry less weight as time goes on, they froze everyone's points. So your races will actually show up on the ITRA website. Everyone has a portfolio, a resume, but your ranking is not affected at all because it's not fair to the people who are stuck in isolation right now or can't run or can't leave their houses.

So my ranking is still from 2019 when I wasn't doing anything.

So I had 500 points then. I got a hold of an updated score during an October race where I was over 600. But then I had that major win with the 100 miler and a really hard race a couple weeks ago where all the other professional runners in Asia ranked or competed and ranked. I got third in that one. So I know both of those races are going to increase my score. So yeah.

I don't think I've reached 700 yet, but I think I'm around 650. And 650 is considered professional in China. Wow. So 2021, you're going to break through? Yeah. So January 1st, everyone will find out what their new scores are. Oh.

So they're unfreezing it January 1st for the new year. Oh. So it's a big day to all of us trail runners. Yeah, all of us trail runners. I'm so checking to see if they updated it early. Do you get competitive? I'm sure you do, right? You have to be. Oh, yeah. You have to be competitive. You have to want it with every cell in your body to get first to make the podium. Yeah.

So you're like looking at the other racers, like just staring them down. Yeah, I'll admit. So now that I'm a professional runner, for every race, like I don't have to pay for races anymore. I get invited to do them. And they make a special WeChat group for all the professional runners because they're paying for our accommodation, transportation. They give us meals. So all the information is posted there. So...

Now I know most of the names. There's so many of us runners. And I'm recognizing the people in my category. So the people who do the 100Ks. I'm a very long distance runner. And

I can kind of eyeball where I'm going to... You never know. Anything can happen during a race. But I kind of know where I'm going to be compared to this person. But when someone pops up in a WeChat group where I've never met them before, don't know anything about them, I first ask my agent, like, okay, give me the status on this person. Who is this person? Do some digging around, huh? Exactly. And then I'll go and stalk them on ITRA. And they're just like, oh, okay, they're shorter distance. I don't need to worry about them. But if they're longer distance, I'm like...

Okay, so I have a race next weekend where actually there's quite a few people I didn't know. I'm like, okay, there's three women I'm actually quite worried about. But no, it's really good. I'm competitive. And you have to be. But it's still, I'm starting to really get to know them. They're a comfort seeing them, even though they might hand my head to me during the race.

I still learn so much from them. And everyone's been so accepting of me as a new professional, especially being like one of two professionals in mainland China who's foreign. It's very rare here. And although most people, like I see the comments on the articles and things published about me, most people are super supportive and excited that there's a foreigner who reached this level. But occasionally I'll see a comment where it's just like,

this foreigner shouldn't be racing at this level or it's not fair to give her the privileges she's not Chinese and I mean it's normal that you're never going to have everyone liking you but it's good to see that actual other professional runners are supportive and are just like don't listen to those comments like you've earned this you're doing well they've given me tips I did the Ningbo 100 a couple weeks ago where I think two-thirds of all the professional runners in China competed it was

they were invited us. It's a major race. I think they wanted to see us all kind of compete in where we ranked. And it was the first race this year where I didn't get first. They got a made like a serious race and get first. I got third and man, that third meant more to me than any other race. Like considering who my competition was.

But more than winning or making the podium at that race, the most rewarding part of it was that I got to meet the professionals. And I learned so much talking with them over dinner. Like the guy who got second place in 100 in the 100K. I did the 50K this time. He did the entire race in Hoka Rocket X shoes. It's a short distance road shoe. Like I'm surprised most people would go for like,

a speed goat, which is a long distance trail shoe. He's like, no, no, it's too heavy. I needed something lighter. And so he showed me different tricks and stuff. And that was cool. That's an opportunity most people would never get to actually have dinner and pick these athletes. And they're actually like sharing resources and tips with like their competitors. Exactly. Yeah. How big is the community? And like, I guess how, when, when did trail running in China get sort of established? Yeah.

There's no clear answer to that. So some of my oldest friends in China, they were like the original trail runners. Like these are people in their 40s and 50s now. They were really here when trail running became a thing. But...

ITRA, the Trail Running Association, that wasn't established yet. Even today, trail running is not an official sport. Mountain running is, but not trail running.

What's the difference? So mountain running is shorter distance, like usually for women it's 8K, maybe men 12K tops. And you just run straight up a mountain, usually like on more of a gravel road. Trail running is anything. It could be any terrain. It could be any distance. It could just be like it's a free-for-all. Like you never know what you're going to get. Like you're just in nature running. Whatever the terrain, natural terrain gives you, that's what you got to do. Sounds kind of exciting actually.

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I've tried mountain running a few times and it's fun. But just running 8K straight up a mountain and then having it be over was just like, okay, so that was fun. But what's next for me? Do you think you have like a target on your back? Because like you come out of nowhere and you're taking the whole like trail running scene by storm, winning all these races. And the people who have been doing it for a while...

you know the elite the other the other elite competitors they must be like looking at you and be like who is this girl and then you know kind of like painting a target on your back like okay we gotta we gotta watch out for her so no so i mean i don't think anyone would ever admit it to me like everyone's always of course very nice very polite uh one of my largest competitors um she's a woman i beat in the um adk when i was no one um and

She like we joke because we keep on bumping into each other at races. She also lives around here. So we do a lot of the same races. And she jokes like, oh, you broke my record in the 100 miler. You're so strong. And it's like she's being very nice, very flattering. But it's also just like to get to this level, you have to be competitive. But no, everyone's very nice. Of course, people want to beat me just like I want to beat them. But when it comes down to it, we're all just doing what we love.

But also my fame has rubbed people the wrong way too. For the most part, like everyone's very supportive, very encouraging. Like it's very, like I've been, I worked very hard to achieve my dreams, but a couple people here also, I think a lot of, there are very few cases, but there's been cases of jealousy, which has actually caused issues in my social life a bit too. But of course it's natural. I was talking to my agents and sponsors about these issues and,

And they're just like, yeah, what you're going through, not everyone will love you. Some people will be jealous, especially when I would come from like more of a club scene where I was at the same level as someone. And then I get super famous someday when we are more or less at the same level before.

Also the attention I get, there's this one guy here who was sponsored, is sponsored still, but he was trail running 10 years ago when it wasn't a thing. I entered a trail running scene at the right time. Like it all just by coincidence out of luck that when I started becoming big, that's when trail running was already big here. And so it's just like the, like he, I would never know like who's the more talented trail runner. Like we're talking a decade apart now.

But it's also just like, he should have gotten where I was too, like the sponsors, the praise and everything too. But it was just not the right time. So there's some jealousy. Well, how did these issues manifest? Like jealousy, but how does it manifest and affect you? Well, it's affected me like socially a bit. Like, I mean, these people would never tell me these things, but I've heard from other people.

It also caused problems with a former coach of mine too, where I actually had to switch coaches recently. And it just...

People won't say it, but you can tell with body language, comments and things like that that are thrown and just word of mouth too. And it's like, I understand it. Like they want to see you fail? Is it that kind of thing? Or like what is the problem? They're spreading like talking shit behind your back? I really don't know. Like the thing is I never really dove into it, but it's things I've heard. And the things I've had these gut feelings about, because of course everyone's,

Okay, not everyone. Quite a few people do treat me differently now. Like not like a bad way. Most of them...

They realized they're next to someone who did become pretty famous in China pretty quickly. My closest friends are just like, no, you're still Kate. They still give me shit all the time. But some people I didn't quite know all that well. You can just tell with body language. It's just like, they think it's really cool, but they're just almost as if you're thinking about like if Angelina Jolie comes here, how you'd act around her. But then it's also...

you just have this hunch feeling that it's not just the warm feeling you got before from these people. But it's very, very, very few. But it is something that does make me sad. It's one of the downsides of this new fame. But then again, I was told this is very, very common. So is it something you're kind of more conscious of now in terms of how...

you might act or behave with other people knowing this, knowing kind of like the trajectory you're on? Or are you just kind of like, you know, I'm just gonna be me, I'm comfortable in my own skin, you know, who cares what they think? Or are you kind of more mindful of like, okay, like, you know, maybe I need to be a little more humble or kind of just tone it down or whatever it is, I don't know. - Yeah, well, I'm a very confident person and that's really the trick to all this.

I'm confident in my abilities. I know I'm not the best, but I'm confident enough to know like I'm doing well. I have the right mindset going into the races and I carry that mindset with me around. I know I'm a very talented runner. I've done things most people couldn't even imagine, but I try my best not to rub in other people's faces. Um,

And so when I'm talking with people, I'm an open book. I say it how it is. It's not just work. It's also talent. But then when I am around people, I try not to rub it in their face. Like when I won the 100 miler, I was in so many articles. I had...

my WeChat contacts increased by like 500 people. I don't even know how they got my WeChat contact, most of them. I had all these professional athletes contacting me to congratulate me. I had a couple offers for agents and sponsors. And I was just in so many articles and like all over WeChat. It was like 15 days of fame, more than. And so it was pretty cool because like for a famous athlete,

the direct translation is goddess so I'm always introduced as the foreign goddess which I mean that could go to your head that's kind of fun that's kind of fun that could go to your head for sure so I mean I did let it go to my head a little bit but like not overly I was just like you guys are in the presence of a goddess right now come on guys it's like nuisance yeah yeah nuisance yeah

But it was more of a joking way. I don't think, or at least hope, I never got cocky about it. Because I also realized it can all be taken away in a second. It's such an unpredictable sport. But then, like, I was talking with my boss, Robin, and I'm like, okay, time to get back to real life. I think I let it get to my head a bit. He's like, oh, yeah. It's okay to enjoy it for a little bit. Yeah, like, I enjoyed it. I realized I worked hard. Like, I...

I can enjoy it a bit, but I also know just being a coach myself and being an athlete and knowing how it could rub people the wrong way. Just keep it very jokingly, like to very casual. And if it's like, don't bring it up if it doesn't come up. Like I'm still Kate, I have other interests. I'm just doing everything for fun. Running is a hobby for me.

So what do you think of someone like David Goggins? Because you kind of remind me of that, right? Like this ultra marathon runner, kind of like talking about mindset and just like pushing through, breaking records, right? What do you think of someone like him? Is he someone that you kind of resonate with in terms of your philosophy and mindset when you approach races? Well,

Well, I don't know quite a lot about him. I know who he is, but I try not... Like, I've done a lot of research. I do seminars on the mental mindset now, and I've come up with a formula that I tested myself, and right before the 100 miler, I test all my theories, and it works 100%. Granted, other factors were involved for me to get that win, but...

When I compare myself with other runners who also develop this mindset, I have to say we all have a similar mindset. We all have the most successful runners and athletes. We all go in confident in our abilities. We train hard. We realize there's other factors. We recognize the role of our team, which is our family, our friends, our coaches, our dogs, like anybody involved.

who has a role in what we do as our team. We recognize the importance of the minor things like making sure that you actually do foam rolling and you do strength work.

like it's all part your mental mindset it's hundreds of different factors and it's really if you get the factors right you'd find all the top athletes whether they talk about them or not we all have the same mindset for the most part we know what we have to do and we're all confident and we just make sure we still love what we're doing do you have any like

I'm just imagining for ultra marathons. I mean, you're out there, you know, alone running, you know, pushing yourself. And then when you have these walls that come up, which I'm sure happened pretty often. Like, what's that mindset that helps you push through? Well, I found that at least during the 100 milers,

Like before when I hit the wall, like I've sobbed in races, especially early on when I was in so much pain. I had no idea what I was doing. Like physical pain. Yeah. Oh, it's torture. If you don't have the right shoes, like your toes are just trashed. Physical pain, emotional pain. Like, oh my gosh, why am I doing this? Like I've definitely sobbed. I swore, like everything. And that's completely okay to do. But what you have to keep yourself from doing when you hit the walls is don't

Don't give yourself negative comments at all. Always a positive mindset. It's like, okay, well, yeah, this is awful, but it's not a surprise. You knew this was going to be awful at some point or another. So during the 100-Miler, I tested out my theories, and my number one rule, okay, a couple rules. One was don't get another concussion, which I did hit my head, but no concussion this time. That's a good rule. Do not injure yourself. Yes. Actually,

Do not die. Within the first 20K, I hit my head pretty hard on the branch. I'm like, but no concussion. I was still okay. And that was the last head injury. The second one was have fun because like I was really at a low point. I hit like an all time low. I was burnt out mentally and physically a couple weeks before going in.

And the third one is stay positive. It's going to be a, it will be a very short race or very long race. What do you want to make it as? So my number one rule is like, and there was times where I'm just like, oh my God, like, why is this in this race right now? Like I've never had a race where I actually had to put my poles in my bag twice so I can actually rock climb up a mountain. It was so steep. It happened two or three times during the race. And I'm just, usually that would phase me. I'm just like, you,

You gotta be kidding me. Like, I was trying not to think, okay, if I fall, it could be a very painful death. And then other times it was like...

newly bulldozed road, I took a step and I'm waist deep in dirt. I'm just like, really? But instead of letting stuff like that phase out where it's like 3 a.m., I'm alone on this mountain waist high in dirt. I'm just like, oh, China. I said, oh, China a lot in my head quite often. I'm just like, okay, oh, China. Okay, let's do this. Just trying to laugh everything off. I got lost quite a few times. The markings weren't great. And I'm just like,

Well, it is what it is. Good thing I have a watch now that beeps at me every 40 meters I'm off. It's like, get back on track. A couple of things went wrong. I was also... I didn't quite get my nutrition right. I have awful stomach issues when I race. So the first half of the race, I had to stop constantly to go. And I'm just like, oh my gosh. My stomach was hurting so bad. But I'm just like, well...

This isn't a news for you. Like this happens to you. So I'm just like, okay, get it over with. Give myself 30 seconds and then try to catch up to that runner over there. And just keeping it casual, keeping friendly. Whenever I saw someone at the service stations saying,

always make sure I had a smile on my face. Like, it's amazing what forcing yourself to smile can do to you. Like, if you smile, you trick yourself into thinking, okay, I'm okay. Yeah. And I met some people along the race, like the people who got like the top five men. I was with every single one of them at one point or another. And I got to talk with them, um,

some of them like I got to practice my Chinese for a little bit the guy who got fifth place is now a good friend and I'm going to and he lives in Suzhou and he's a top runner too so now we're going to meet up and train but I just always kept everything positive and I'm 100% convinced that's

how I did so well. I found out when there's women right on my back, like the first couple of kilometers or first couple of stations, they're like, yeah, the women are only a few minutes behind you. A couple of times since I am very competitive, one or two women will come at the service station just as I'm leaving. And I'm like, oh no. And then I'm just like, I'm going to outrun you right now. But instead of having that freak me out, because I knew I could do well, I'm just like,

Let's make this fun. Let's sprint the next section. Wow. Where do you think this optimism or...

this confidence in the face of hardship comes from? - I just researched because I knew mindset was a major aspect in endurance sports and I was doing presentations for, and just getting them ready on the forgotten parts of running. So nutrition, injury prevention and mindset. So I decided to tackle mindset first

And just interviewing so many elite runners, reading about them, reading books to get the presentation ready. I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to get my first presentation very soon. Let's put this off to the test. So everything I learned, I just, I used a 100 miler as a test and it worked 100%. Because I'm trying to wrap my mind around this because it's one thing to say, yeah, you got to stay positive. You got to keep your mind in a good place.

There's another thing is when your freaking mind is yelling at you, this fucking sucks. What the hell is wrong with you? You know what I mean? That voice is loud. Yeah, it's like we're drinking rum right now sitting here. It's easy to say, hey, be positive. But when you're in so much pain, you're alone out there on the trail. It's dark. It's damp. I can't even imagine what you're going through. Like how do you actually stay positive?

Well, what helped with me was a motto. So I tell everyone I meet, pick a motto. Your things are going to shit. Pick a motto that will make you cheer up a bit. So before, I always had this motto. Every step you take is a step closer to the boys. The boys being my dogs. Like I think about my dogs all the time. You visualize your dogs. Yeah, it's like I just, oh, I do anything to be on the couch cuddling with them, maybe with a good book.

So everyone needs to have that thing, whatever it is for them, right? Exactly. For you with your dogs. Yeah, and then I had a couple more. I'm like, okay, I need a couple more models in case that gets sold during this. So another one, yingnan or shang. I have it tattooed to my leg right now. It means just basically...

any challenge thrown at you. And so I'm like, I'm going to do that. Like 2020 was awful. Oh my gosh, it's been an awful year. Yeah, what a year. Yeah. So I'm just like... What's happened in 2020? I don't know. Yeah, you've got already. Well, Kate won a race. Yeah.

But it's just like, okay, I just overcame what most people would think as like a China fail and return home. I've done worse than this. Like at least this is a much longer race. But remember your first one where you lost every toenail was a bloody mess. You ran a race where you lost every toenail? Yeah, I didn't know back then for trail running shoes, you have to pick a trail running shoe two sizes larger than your normal running shoe.

Your feet really swell. Yeah, no one told me that going into this race. I wasn't prepared at all. Like, I was in so much pain. I learned I have ITBS. That's like torture. That's literal torture. It was torture. Yes, yeah. And ITBS, which is just agony in your knees, something that you either have or don't. I didn't know how to take care of it. I didn't even know I had it until that race. So I'm like, okay, well, at least you're not in agony like that race. And I...

There's things like that really helped. And another motto that I read about that a lot of famous athletes use is, this is what you came here for. Yeah. Embrace it. You signed up for this. You signed up for this. You knew what it was going to be like. Why are you complaining? Like...

you knew exactly what you were going into. Kate, I got to thank you for that one because that came in handy when we were in Chenda Hu. And definitely it was, it wasn't super hard, you know, it was just a half, but...

Throughout the race, it was like, you know, you could let up a little bit. And I'm like, no, this is what you came for. And so when things got a little bit painful, you kind of push through. So that was super helpful. Oh, I'm glad. I'm really glad. I love it when people actually use the advice I give and say, yeah, that really helped. For me, everything I learned...

I want to share with everyone else, like I am where I am today because of free advice, free trainings. And the best way to thank those people, I think is to pay it forward. So it makes me really happy to hear that the advice helps and that you're using it. Oh, for sure. I took lots of notes. Um, so you gave, um, a, uh, a workshop, right? Um,

a couple of weeks ago, and it's about mental strength. And I remember you saying like the key success factors, there are like three key success factors as far as like being an athlete, physical ability, how hard you work and the mental game. For this workshop, you only talked about the mental game. Can you tell us a little bit more about sort of like how you came up with this workshop? I mean, it was like two hours of just like packed,

like hardcore, like, you know, like if you want to run a hundred mile race and you want to do well, like go to the workshop. Yeah. I need to adapt it too, to make it suitable for other distances as well. But yeah, I did tell everyone I can talk a lot. My boss was actually saying, man, when he said it was two hours, I didn't think it actually used up the full two hours. But yeah, I decided the mental strength, like those three key factors, they're not my original idea. That's something I read about.

But I decided to really hammer on the mental game because your mental ability is so much more than your physical ability. Like, okay, maybe not sprinting 100 meters. That's not purely physical. But when you're out there for, I'd say, anything more than like a 10K sprint,

It's really like you're... It's not going to be comfortable. There's going to be at some point... Like you're going to be out of breath heaving. You're going to be in physical pain. You're going to be bored. You're going to be... Like you're going to be developing a blister. You're going to get cramps. Something is going to go wrong. They're very, very, very rarely... It's almost unheard of for everything to go right during a race. But what pushes you through is your mental strength. Like...

Okay, how much are you willing to endure? How much do you want this? And like physical ability, it's mental strength. It doesn't come just overnight. Going to my workshop, you're going to learn tips, but you're not going to have the mindset of gold after. It's something you have to work on. You know what you have to do. You know the thoughts. You know the theories, right?

Put it into practice every single training session, every race, every competition, just constantly practice it. Like apply it. Exactly. It's like mindset is also, it's just like any other muscle. You need to work it out. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I decided to really hammer on the mindset because it's so forgotten. How many times when you're running,

when you're thinking, okay, I have the right shoes on, I have the right clothes for the weather, I have my water, how many times do you think, okay, how's my mindset? How's my mental state right now?

People don't think about it. It's such a forgotten area. And it's really the most crucial factor, in my opinion, after the necessities of getting the right pair of shoes and stuff like that. Well, I think the distinction that you made in terms of you have to practice it, you have to apply it. That's the only way you're actually going to

inherit these mindsets, right? - Exactly. - I think that's a really important distinction, 'cause like we talk about a lot of things on this show, right? And there's a lot of people, you know, you read a lot of books, you try to absorb a lot of information, and for a lot of people, that's, I feel like that's already good enough. Like, oh, I've read the book. I've absorbed that information.

But it just stays there and it does, it's kind of useless unless you actually actively try to apply the information you're absorbing. - Exactly, yeah. - And I think that's that step that maybe a lot of people, including myself, that we kind of get lost in sometimes. We don't really think about. We stop at, okay, I've read the book, I've read the rules, I've heard the tips,

And okay, I'm good. I have it in my brain. But it doesn't do anything if it just stays in your brain. You have to actually apply it and make use of it and see if it works for yourself in like real life situations. Exactly, yeah. And in terms of everything I gave in the presentation, I threw a lot of information at all the participants. So when I decided to put everything to the test, I chose the 100 miler to do that because 100 miles, you have time to put everything to the test.

But for the shorter races, really focus on one thing. Like for me, it was just like,

I'd say I put everything to the test in the 100 miler, but the main things I wanted to work on was staying positive and make sure you're loving what you do. So there's so many other things I could have hammered too, but those two were the ones I definitely forget many times, especially after my mental breakdown a few weeks before the race where I was just so burned out. My friend looked at me, she's like,

you're not loving what you do. You don't love running right now. You're not the Kate we know. And so it's like, okay, well, I'm going to make sure like this race can go in so many directions. I want to make sure that I love every moment of it. Even if I'm not physically enjoying it like that last 20K, like,

I wanted to love the experience. Was it things going on in your personal life that you had this kind of breakdown or burnout? I was just... Or was it physical? Both. Definitely both. I remember it was Halloween. I was running for the stupid insanity challenge that my friends and I were doing. I was running my 100K and it wasn't going well. It was a week after my DNF in Saigu where I was supposed to get my 100K requirement in.

um i cut up my knee i had stitches in my knee and um i mean it was fine but when you're running that hurt like that night all the stitches were ripped out um i was so physically i was in so much pain and mentally i was i wasn't getting the support um i really needed from the people in the insanity group i'm it and i've

It was like one of those things that I mentioned before. Someone left me a message where I was just like, wow. Like it was more than just the challenge. It was like,

You're you actually do kind of want to see me fail in this they get something I mean I knew before talking with people before I knew the incident But it hit me and that was kind of a low point like it was just like wow people actually want to see me fail for months And knowing that was just it was hard and I was exhausted too like leading up to it I was just I wasn't training the right way Just doing a lot of races

getting a lot of attention, still trying to do my job 100%, trying to make time for other aspects of my life. I was burned out. I wasn't doing well. So when my friend's like, you don't love running, it's a stressor for you. You're not enjoying it.

What are you gonna do? Like you're not gonna last much longer the way you're going so I'm like you're right I have to love what I'm doing like if I don't love what I'm doing Why am I there like I'm not gonna even do well, like why am I at that start line then so I decided I recovered a bit like two days before the race I got the stitches out of my knee and like the new set of stitches after have ripped them out on Halloween and I'm like, okay physically, I'm okay Mentally

I'm okay enough. But during this race, like you have a lot of time to think. So I'm like, okay, no negative thoughts. Like everything that I've heard, I get negative. Just let it wash away. Like don't think about it. Focus on the support you do have. And that was the key. That's how I stayed positive the entire time. Can I ask you something? I'm curious about this. So for training, when you're training for this 100-mile run,

Do you actually do a 100-mile run in one time? No. You don't do that, right? No. So basically when you actually do the race, it's the first time you're going through that whole thing.

Mm-hmm. Length. Exactly, yeah. That's crazy. So you do use other races to prepare. So all my 100Ks I've done before, like my last completed race before the 100 miler was 120K, only 40K, or in my case, 132K because I got lost. But that was only 30K less than, or a little more, 40K less than what I was doing. It was pretty close. Yeah. Yeah.

But usually the rule is when you're preparing, the longest mileage you should have in one week should be around three or four weeks before the race itself. And the weekly mileage should be about equivalent to the distance of the race you're doing. So if I was doing 168K next week,

Uh, three weeks ago, two or three weeks ago, I should have done around 168 K throughout that week. I mean, I didn't get there. Of course. Um, I only taught that around one 30 because I do work full time. I do have other things I need to sleep too. Um, but the more you run, the more comfortable it is, the better you're going to be at it. Um,

Well, you have to like manage yourself, right? You have to like manage your body, manage your energy, I would have to assume. And I really have to assume it can't be healthy. It can't be good for your body, right?

to run a hundred mile trail run. - It's awful for your body, yeah. - Yeah, it's awful. - You don't come out-- - You're breaking your body down. - Exactly, yeah. - Yeah, you don't come out of that healthier. You deteriorate, right? - Exactly, yeah. - So like you only have so many times you can do this before like your body maybe starts wearing down. - Yeah, so there's many things to consider. I mean, better is trail than road. It's softer ground, different muscles used at different times. You can go slower. - Oh, cause they change your muscles, is that like that? - Exactly, yeah.

But yeah, I can probably do like 100 more 100 milers in my life.

I started trail running very, very, very young. For years, I was the youngest participant in the races. Trail running is something you do more in your 30s because it's the mindset. Most young people, they have the physical ability. They have no mental ability at all. They don't know what it takes to endure and suffer. Whereas those

those who are older regardless of if it's from physical suffering or something else going on in their life they have the mental strength so you're the youngest one in the field by far yeah for professional runners from at least those i know about i'm the youngest professional runner here um but not by much i am i'm getting a little bit older now how old are you i'm 27 oh wow okay yeah so i'm still very young most professional uh runners especially the women

I think the next one is 29. But most of them are in the 30s and 40s. Like the woman who came in second place at the 100 miler, she's 60, I think.

Wow. She's what? 60. They go 59, 60. She's called the grandma. So she was from one of the original trail runners from back in the day, like 10 years ago. That's amazing. It's not a very flattering name, though. Yeah, exactly. But try seeing the news articles where Catherine Hill wins against the grandma. Against the grandma. Yeah. It's like old grandma over here. Yeah, just like, oh. New son versus the grandma. Yeah. New son versus wife. That's not fair. That's not fair. Exactly.

Yeah. But no, she's one of the best trail runners today. Like she's one of the most famous trail runners in the world. In the world. Yeah. Because like she was in the scene and especially at her age, ITRA just came out with a study. They found women reach their peak around mid thirties and they're

and they maintain it to their mid-60s. Wow. For trail running. For trail running. Men, they start to go down in their 50s, but women, we can maintain it until our mid-60s. Because there's such a strong mental aspect. Exactly. And it's not, women can endure more than men. Yeah, I believe that. If you start, they say, if a man and a woman start like a marathon at the same time, or not a marathon, like 100K or something like that,

If they are still next to each other, same ability halfway through, the woman will finish first. But yeah, so a woman could really, I'll be doing this for a very long time. Well, that's a really interesting distinction too, where you mentioned about age and the average age of like elite trail runners is a little bit older than

Because when it comes to long distance trail running, like you just said, like mindset plays such a bigger role, right? And usually young people have not formed a very maybe solid mindset yet in their younger ages. Is there anything, because you talked about kind of like things that you read or tricks or rules that you've come across that you've actually tested and applied yourself in your races and you said, you know, these work, right?

what have you come across that hasn't worked for you well everything is different everything that i've at least said works for me but it might not work for someone else just as i've heard advice where like especially in regards to nutrition nothing has worked the only thing that works is tailwind for me um basically liquid diet where everyone else is like oh you can have more bananas or you can have gels and stuff nope um

Have there ever been like thoughts, like rules, like staying positive is one of your rules, right? Has there been another rule where you're like, okay, I'm going to try this rule in this race. And like midway through, you're like, this rule ain't fucking working at all. It's kind of like just abandon it. I mean, have you come across anything like that?

I really can't think of anything right now because those that I really researched were those on top and their advice for them was winning advice. It was just, I found with mental strength, the rules are really kind of universal. Like,

They've done studies, those who have a positive mindset will usually always come up on top to those who are like, "This is awful, I can't do it," or "I don't have the ability to do this." You're just setting yourself up for failure then. I'm sure there are a couple of things, mental tricks, where it might work, it might not. There is actually one thing, like I say you have to want it with every cell in your body.

I don't think anyone will disagree with me on that, but it's the extent of it. Like you have to make sure you're always doing this for yourself, not for the podium, not for your sponsors, not for point. You have to do it because you genuinely love it.

But you do need to have that competitive edge where it's like, I need a win against these people because that's what's going to give you that cutthroat ability that really might get you first by seconds. I feel like that's what's going to separate...

you know, you from people with only natural talent or just, you know, time or whatever, you know, that edge, the extra edge is because you really fucking want it. Exactly. And the Ningbo 100 a few weeks ago, I, against all, like this was my most competitive race to date against all the elite runners. I won third place.

by less than a minute. And that's because I was running, I was doing well. The second place just passed me. I'm like, okay, I still make podium. I hear someone say, Catherine Hill. I realize it's someone else, another woman in my category.

And I sprinted. I didn't think I had any more energy left. The AQI was like way over 200. I felt awful. Oh, shit. But that was, like I still had another. Yeah, I had another kilometer and a half to go. I sprinted with every cell in my body. I put everything into it. I'm like, I am getting this podium. I'm not letting this person catch up with me. So she yelled your name? Yeah. To let you know she's coming for you? What kind of thing? I feel really, really, really bad.

bad about this actually because she's also sponsored by my sponsor and she's like oh yeah like I think she maybe wanted to run together oh shit I apologized to her after she's like hey let's do this and I'm like fuck you and I'm like I remember screaming I'm sorry what was she in this person she's like let's do this together sister

And so I sprinted because I knew like third place, like I really, they kind of need that right now for my professional career. And so I remember sprinting. My agent saw me like 300 meters before crossing the finish line. She's like, wait, is there a woman behind you? I'm like, yes. She's like, mom. And then like she crossed the finish line like less than a minute after me. And yeah, and I'm just like, I'm so, so, so sorry. She's like, I understand. I get it.

I think it's sneaky for her to do that. That's sneaky. Well, make it...

I think you did the right thing. And you were like, it wasn't like, fuck you. Yeah, exactly. Getting dirt in her face. I'm so sorry. Yeah, yeah, I felt bad. Because for her, she didn't really, I mean, we all kind of need podiums. I mean, it's a race, right? Yeah, it is a race. It wasn't grandma, was it? You guys are professionals. It wasn't grandma. It's not grandma. But it was just like, she completely understood. She's just like,

I get it. Next time we'll run together. I'm like, maybe. Yeah, we'll see. You were talking before about like motivation. I would think like going back to the idea of like, I guess, you know, you didn't say this word, but I'm gonna say like haters, like people who might want to see you fail or jealous. I mean, that can be used as pretty high octane fuel to motivate you to win as well, right? It has actually, it really, really has. So,

So with my ex-coach, we've had a really, really bad falling out. I think many factors go into it. It wasn't a good match for either of us. It was just more just out of convenience. And it's affected work as well because my coach did also, he was associated with my job. And

like when everything kind of blew up and um my boss was just like okay well it is what it is he's not taking sides which of course that's a good thing he's not taking sides it's whatever's going on between me and my ex-coach is between me and my ex-coach only and he's just like well the only thing you can do now is just do as well as you can in your races like this is lost cause don't

Don't like it's affecting you socially in the work area and in your professional running career. But the best thing you can do is not let it get to you. And so actually, it was during the NIMBO 100. My ex coach did something quite sneaky. He texted me. He basically more or less it was blackmail. But that's all I'm going to say.

To blackmail you or try to blackmail you. And he started up right before Ningbo 100. Like he sent the message hours before I got to the start line. Kind of rattled you a little bit. Exactly. It was sneaky. He was trying to rattle me. And I found out, I told my boss, I'm 100% transparent with my age and my boss, everything about it. Like people who need to know. Like it's not something I talk about openly. It's a dispute between me and my ex-coach only. But he did try to rattle me.

But at that point, like I knew enough, it's just like, you're trying to rattle me. You knew how much this race, how important this is.

So I just muted the group chat and I told everybody in the need to know, like, hey, I muted my group chat. I muted these group chats with this person. I'll get back to them after the race. And then when after the race, I checked the message. He went through with what he was blackmailing me about. And I'm just like, OK, well, I still did incredibly well, even if I wasn't a little bit shaken up before that. I don't think I could have done any better, like considering who my competition was.

But yeah, so there are people out there who, like, very, these are very, very, very few people. I can only think of three people who haven't taken my fame quite the right way. Um...

They will try to do things. But then I talk to my agent and my sponsors and they're like, this is normal. Yeah, it's normal. This happens. Everyone will go through it. Like this is the game. Yeah, this is the game. And it's like, basically, this is the reality. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to let it rattle you or are you going to go on with your career and doing what you love?

Haters gonna hate. Exactly. Well, they say the biggest fuck you is success, right? Exactly. So my boss is just like, just do as well as you can. Focus on that. Focus on your next few races. And he was right. So it's like now it's in my past. I have a new coach that's working very, very well for me actually.

And I've only been working with this new coach a couple weeks. But I was just thinking today, I'm already faster. I already feel stronger. Great. So I'm looking forward to the next race next weekend.

Oh, it's next weekend. Yeah. I was just told, oh, yeah, by the way, you have a 100-miler next weekend. 100-mile next weekend. Is that how it comes up? Oh, sorry, not 100-miler, 100-kilometer. No, I was supposed to do... Oh, that's easy. I was supposed to do the Shaman Marathon. I need to get a sub-three marathon time for sponsorship requirements, so...

But then this 100 miler came and with really, really good prize money, it's in an area that I have a talent in. And like I don't, like although I could do very well at Shaman, just talking to my agent, coach, sponsors, everyone, I would do probably better and I could get more rewards, more benefits, further reach my goals with this 100 kilometer race versus Shaman. And then I can just do another marathon two months later.

So what goes into, because that's fascinating to me, like what goes into that decision making? Like, you know, because now with an agent, with sponsors, you being professional, you're on the radar, you know, inevitably it turns more like, you know, it's obviously it's a passion. It's a sport. But now there's a business aspect to it. There's a commercialization aspect to it now.

So what goes into your decision making? How has that changed how you go about the sport and choosing what races you do, how you do it, and your whole kind of strategy, I guess? - Well, I'm really bad at saying no. So if I had it my way, I'd do every single race.

But this is why I agreed to an agent, an agent who also knows my new coach very well. And actually the other day, my coach is just like, give me the schedule that you and your agent are thinking about for this year. Give me the list of races you want to do. Rank them A, B, and C with A being the most important.

And at this point, I just want to run. Like I love running. I want to maintain that love for running. I want to make sure it always kind of stays more of a hobby rather than a career for me. Like it is definitely counts as like a part-time job at this point. Like I get money when I run now, but I need to make sure I don't ever financially depend on it or do it for monetary purposes. And so my agent, she's constantly texting me with races. She's like,

She looks at races that are very famous, very big, that can help increase my image, reputation. As I am a celebrity now, especially on media, like you can't separate the two. Professional athletes are also media stars. Whether or not they actually control their own media is another thing, but you have to be big on media.

And so she's like, okay, do the races that will either get your face out there or the ones that come with a lot of money. Um, so this race I'm doing next weekend, it comes with a lot of money. Like what's, what's, what's the bounty? Like, like what's the prize money? If I get first place, 10,000 Remedy. Really? Yeah. Okay. And so, yeah, so it's really good. Like there's some races with more money, some with less. Um,

But she's picking those ones because also, like, I'm an American. I'm still a young American. I still have grad school loans to pay off. My new coach isn't free. I still, I have two dogs that have vet bills, like,

I'm doing what I love, but just because I'm a professional athlete doesn't mean I make a lot of money now. And so I do have to think if I'm going to do this more often, although I get my transportation, accommodation, race fees, they got paid for now. Since I am giving up an entire weekend, it is nice to get something in return. I go almost as like a part-time job. And so my agents and...

She's really just choosing races that either help me become more famous or come with prize money so I can pay off my everyday life expenses. That's great. I mean, that's her job, right? Like our last guest, we had Dr. Ryan Thorpe on and he was basically saying that he's a writer, he's an author, and he has a literary agent and publishers that he works with.

And basically, he was basically saying the same thing. As a writer, you kind of see yourself as an artist or in your context, it's an athlete. And then you have to kind of balance that business aspect of it. And the publisher's or literary agent's kind of role is really to think about the business. How do I maximize your profits from this? Exactly, yes. And it's a one-one situation with her. I have a very unique relationship.

situation of I'm actually so lucky. So my agents actually, she turned into a really good friend of mine. We started hitting it off before I even considered an agent role. But I had quite a few people come up to me like very in the scene saying, Hey, do you want to take me on as your agent? But it comes with a price for my agent, Diana. She's like, I'll do it for free. Like I, I don't have quite the connections as everyone else.

But like I have nothing else to do like she's right now a freelancer and it's just like when I go to a race usually like she could she can stay in the hotel with room with me I'll try to get her a free entry as well when I get a product like for Ningbo I won so many prizes like in addition to a monetary prize a lot of different products and

and like the products i'll never use um like i use what i know and what i know is working for me i don't want there's no reason for me to change now so i'm like okay here you go diana have all this she's like awesome yeah um so it's kind of a one-way situation for her as well like managing me it's experience for her she could say this is my first athlete clients

So you were her first. Like she wasn't really an agent before this. Yep, I'm her first. She was just someone you really trusted. Exactly. And she was capable. That's important too. Trust is a huge thing. Exactly. Yeah, I met her at the Jongno 100 race. I remember the first time I met her was before I won the race. It was bid pickup. And she just called out my name, Catherine Hill. And I'm just like, who are you? And she's like, she was the translator in the foreign group chat. And then you just ran off. Yeah. She was the translator in the foreign group chat for it. And she's like, I recognize your face. I thought,

I think she knew a little bit about me because I won another Jong-Lan race before. And she's like, yeah, just let me know if you need anything. And then when I crossed the finish line, she was the person kind of, I think, assigned to just...

being a foreigner, like just kind of make sure I was okay. And we just really hit it off. I remember just hours after the award ceremony, the two, like I was waiting for my friend to finish up a 100 K he was doing. Um, so we just sat on the stage and just like talked for hours and just got really, really close. Um, and then like recently she's just like, I was telling her about the different offers and sponsors, like sponsorship offers. And I'm just like, I, I,

I don't want to focus on it. Like, I don't know. I don't have enough experience. I don't like, I have a fantastic community, a fantastic resource here, but,

But no one's ever dealt with something quite at this level. She's like, well, I'm not an agent before, but I can be your agent. I know the brands. She's a trail runner herself. She's native Chinese, educated in the States. So she has both worlds going for her. She's connected to everyone. And her good friends are my main sponsors now. So...

um it just like it seemed brainless i'm like yeah be my agent definitely um and so far i think she's doing a fantastic job like this is new water for both of us and we're just kind of going for it's like okay well we'll see what happens um right now it seems to be benefiting both of us so we're like okay we'll just roll with this that's a cool story actually you know it's it reminds me of this other story i was hearing um

there is this editor in my field, right, an editor, and he was a big fan of this director. And then basically, and the director's pretty well known, and then, you know, not thinking too much, just as a fan who was just like writing, like, I'm a big fan of your thing, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then suddenly it just became like this little conversation and it became friends. And just because of personalities clicking and stuff like that, sometimes it's okay. Like, you know, just reach out, you know. You never know what can happen. Exactly. I mean, coming from the other perspective, not from your perspective, but from your now agent perspective, you know, sometimes you just have conversations. You never know, you know. Like, people are a lot more accessible than you think. Yeah. And, you know, as long as it's a mutual relationship,

you know, there's mutual benefits. I think it can work out, you know? Well, it strengthens the bonds in a lot of ways because like, you kind of like going to war together. Right. And then, and then when, when you're both kind of learning as you go together, you know, there's, that's, that's really like bonding, right. As opposed to, okay, this is a person who's already done it all, has all the resources, has a lot of experience, right.

And you just come on as like their client, right? And you're just one of their clients. Versus, hey, we're sisters in this. Let's find out together where we can take this. And we're both learning and there's a mutual trust going on. I mean, that's really like, you know, that really forms a really close bond, I would have to imagine. Exactly. And I'm so much closer to Diana now. And like we help each other

in ways completely unrelated to running too. So I, like I have a background in running or not running, uh, writing. Um, she's right now trying to get into a grad program. I'm just like, yeah, just give me a look. I hope I'll get your, um, essays for it. We'll connect you with our last guest. He's, he, he, uh, directs the Shanghai writing workshop here. Yeah. So it's, that'd actually be great. Yeah. I can connect Diana with, um, him, but yeah, it's just like with my background, it's just like, okay, yes. I mean, your essays, like,

it's a mutual benefit in so many different ways when you just kind of go in

we're just like just as a team like not just even with running anymore um she's also she and i are like the two main people for tailwind in china um we have a close connection with the distributor in hong kong and just that by coincidence we meet and so like we bonded a lot over tailwind and so she actually has the trailers coming up she's like i'm out do you have any more tailwind you can give me i'm like yeah here's the last of my badge yeah i need it i need it but like

but I'm more than happy to do that for her since we're a team. Switching gears for a second because this is something, I'm meeting you for the first time today. And so why are you in China in the first place? Okay, let's give the listeners a background. You're from New York, from the US. When did you come out here again? So I first came to China in 2014. So I was studying abroad. So in college,

I studied Spanish I was supposed to go to Peru but I took a Chinese culture course mostly because I heard they eat Chinese food and I love Chinese food and they're like Chinese Chinese food or Americanized Chinese food oh Americanized I didn't even know there's a difference between oh yeah yeah yeah didn't know there's a difference back then which is delicious in the total which is awesome which is awesome

But my study abroad office was just like, hey, do you want to go to China? Like I started also taking a Chinese class. Like my one of my good friends who was a Chinese major, just like just take the Chinese class. I'm like, OK. So they waived my Chinese requirements since I didn't have enough years and just like, OK, just try out four months in China. See how you like it. Well, four months turned into 14 months. I just loved it instantly changed my

my majors in math and computer science to Chinese and international development. Traveled all over, lived in Beijing, worked in Shanghai a bit, studied in Kunming and Harbin. Oh, wow. Got into a grad school when they had a campus in Nanjing. So I decided to do the Nanjing grad program. And...

when I realized it was basically to become a foreign service officer more or less or do something with like foreign policy um it was for international relations when I realized that I didn't really want to do that like I was fresh out of uni I didn't have any real work experience I didn't know what I wanted I just moved I worked for a bit an internship in Yunnan again and then I was like okay I need to stop moving around and I've just been working in Shanghai just kind of

in industries that I love and just doing exactly what I want to do here. What was it about it here like that when you got here, you were like, oh, because it seems like a huge shift. Like you changed all your majors, what you were studying, like you kind of like completely changed course. And you were like, okay, I'm all in here. Like, what was it?

It was just, I guess, the culture and the history. I love history. So living in Beijing, which is filled with Chinese history, like you have the Great Wall, the tombs, the ancient ruins and caves. And I was just, I thought it was so fascinating. Living in Yunnan, I learned about the ethnic minorities and...

I learned all about in-depth what their issues are. And I was just like, I want to do something with international development that aids minority populations and rural development. I just really had a passion and interest in that. And although I'm not working in any of those fields now, I'm now in sports, I just kept on taking a chance. It's like, okay, I don't know where I'm going to end up. And I know these fields, I'm not going to be making a lot, but...

I just coming from a very supportive family who are like,

You'll figure it out. Just make sure you do what you love. You only live once. So your family was very supportive of you staying here. Exactly. I mean, they definitely weren't pleased. I think they'd rather if I was in the States. But especially my mom, she's very supportive of me. She's just like, you are living your dream. My mom couldn't really live her dream through the different circumstances. So I know I was talking to her for hours last night on Christmas and

She's so proud of me, like everything I accomplished. I don't think she still wrapped her head around the fact that one of her kids is now a professional athlete. Like I was one of the least athletic kids growing up. I played tennis and lacrosse because I had to in high school, but that was about it. It's insane. Yeah. So she says, okay, well, you're doing what you love and you're thriving.

I'm proud of you. But having that support and having the opportunity and the encouragement to do what I love really kind of formed my decision to stay in China, see what opportunities are here. I feel more at home in China than I ever did in the U.S., just culturally. Interesting. You know, one big point I'm getting out of what you're just saying that I think also would resonate with a lot of our listeners is

is the fact that you had your own direction before, right? But then you came here and experienced something totally new and you pivoted, you know, and being able to pivot your direction and your focus and sort of like just living life as you go, right?

is really important because you don't know what you really love or what you really like or what you're even good at until you experience it. Exactly. And I think that's a big thing for young people, you know, to understand. But I think you're also fortunate because you had that clarity at a young age, right? And I mean, I'm assuming you're not married, you don't have kids, right? Yeah, no. So you don't have those responsibilities to kind of

you know, lock you down. Exactly. And you had a certain freedom to kind of be like, but nevertheless, like you had that clarity to be like, you know, you know what? I'm not going to get stuck in something. I'm not going to allow myself to get stuck in something. I'm just going to regret. I'm going to be miserable doing just because it might pay the bills. I'm going to go out, take a chance and look and commit to something that I truly am passionate about that I am happy doing. Exactly. And that does take courage to do that.

for people who are lucky enough to have that clarity. - Yeah, lucky is huge. You're really lucky, right? - When I was your age, I didn't know what the fuck I wanted to do. I had no idea what I wanted to do. And I wish I had some sort of clarity back then where I can be like, hey, change course right now.

stick to a track. And by now, you know, maybe I would be somewhere with that. Right. And that, that's, that's clarity is, is so important. And then some people get it too late where, like I said, they might have a family, they may have kids, they have other responsibilities, other lives that they have to take into account at that point. And their tolerance to risk and taking chances drastically decreased. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Like my mom always said to me, do what you want to do now, live your life now before you ever have a kid. Um,

That I think it's a regret my mom had like, I mean, my mom, she had a really good life and then she had me and Steven and I know we are the best things that ever happened to her. But she had to make a lot of sacrifices, do a job she doesn't love, had to make a lot of choices in order to provide for my brother and me. And

I think if she didn't make those sacrifices, I wouldn't be where I am today. Like, I don't even know where I'd be. My mom has done so much. And so she said that your kids are going to be the most important people in your life and your life,

will, like all of your choices will be affected by how it affects them. So just do what you want, travel now, live your life now. And she's just like, she just wanted me to always follow my passion. So I had two major pivots going from what I thought was secure with math and computer science. Like, I mean, it's interesting. I still really am fascinated by those subjects.

Doing something that's like, okay, Chinese and international development. Well, it could go really well. It could go really wrong. But I'm interested. So, okay, we'll do this in China. Okay. And then when I shifted my focus from like nonprofits, world development and history to sports, where my mom's just like, what? Yeah, she's like, you in sports? Like, okay.

And it's not even like a mainstream sport. It's like trail running. Exactly. And I hated running growing up. Oh, my gosh. You couldn't get me to run at all growing up. But she realized, like, she sees how passionate I am. She's never seen me run. I've never really ran in the States before. But I update her all the time. I'm like, oh, I'm going to another race. I...

like when she talks to me um when i talk about running i know she can sense how passionate about it and how happy i am she i've been sending her all the articles i see about me she can't read any of them they're all in chinese but like she some of them have english yeah a couple of them yeah yeah so um yeah i sent her those and she's like well you're you're doing what you love and you're thriving you're really like you're

doing it the right way. Yeah, you're doing it. So I actually had a very long conversation with her last night. It's been a long time since, due to the time difference, where I could really sit down with her and talk about how everything's going. It's one of those heart-to-hearts that you don't have all that often. And she's like, okay, well...

There's still a lot of COVID related things that need to be taken into consideration. A lot of like the impact of COVID in both of our lives. But she's like, don't give up running. Like you're, you love doing this. Basically, she's like, yeah, you have the right mindset in this. Don't make it a full passion. Don't put in like 100% into this. Make sure you still have time for the other people and other things in your life.

But still, you're doing it. Go for it. Keep it up and just make sure you always love what you're doing. That's beautifully said, Kate. That's really beautiful. Is she still in New York right now? Yes. Okay. She's there. Okay. Yeah, she's okay. Okay. It's just lonely holidays. Everyone has to stay put for the most part, but it is what it is. So what do you got coming up in 2021? What are your major goals?

duo in the race starting at 10 p.m. on January 1st that 100k which just like came up out of like spontaneously yeah you have to run 100k starts at 10 p.m. 10 p.m. yeah wow even I question that like usually night races are something they do in the summer when it's so hot but I'm just like seriously a winter race at night and it's supposed to be like below freezing soon here yeah

How do you dress for something like that then? Lots of layers. Like for me, I'm most comfortable in a t-shirt and shorts. That's it. Yeah, I have to figure out what I'm going to wear now. Don't you overheat if you wear too much? Well, layers. So I have a bag on so I can just... I need to make sure whatever I wear is super light and folds up easily. Also...

Run faster. If you're cold, run faster. I am still working on this aspect. I purposely did not want to do a long-distance race when it was this cold because I also have asthma. I have cold and just asthma. Yeah, last time I did a January race, even though it was during the day, it didn't end well. But I'm more prepared now. I'm more aware. I know what to expect. I've seen pictures of past races. We're supposed to have pretty good, decent weather, not supposed to rain this year. But...

It's going to seem just...

Talk to people. Do what I know works for me. I'm out training every single day at 4.30. It's been warm the last couple of nights, but a couple of mornings ago, it was really cold. 4.30 in the morning? Yep. I wake up at 4.30 a.m. every day to train. So I found a couple of clothes that compression gear that I found working for me. It's not causing chafing too much. So I think I'll be okay.

Well, I don't even know what to say. You're incredible. Yes. Like, I can't even wrap my mind around. You literally are like the female version of David Goggins. Oh, wow. You should look more into him because you guys are like pretty much the same people. You're just the female version of him. Okay, yeah, I'll definitely look into him more. He's insane just like you are. Well,

You have to have a degree of insanity to do something like this. Of course. You can't be normal. Exactly. In any field, you know, if you want to reach the top, you cannot be a normal person. Hence, you're at the top. Exactly, yeah. Extraordinary. What makes Kate more amazing is that she didn't go through this crazy, like David Goggins had a really brutal childhood, you know, and so like you've

this pet perseverance, resilience, optimism, like you've grown this internally yourself, right? Not as a response to, like he had a really traumatic childhood. So I think it's even a more powerful story. - Yeah. - I just don't understand how you go from like hating running, like running at all, to now being like one of the most elite and most like talked about like ultra runners here. You know, it's like, it's ridiculous. But anyway,

thanks a lot for sharing kate this was amazing no problem yeah thanks for having me this is this was a lot of fun a lot of fun right it's a lot of fun for us too when you're drinking rum and talking to uh talking to friends i'm gonna get you back on a regular as a regular guest yeah hopefully hopefully right yeah i'm down whenever you have the time we can talk about a bunch of stuff we can talk about other like health things you know recovery yeah you know we have a lot of people that listen to this show that are trying to get fit themselves or you know who are fit and you know take running pretty seriously as well yeah okay well i can talk for

hours about really anything running related even if it's not running like even the smaller things like I'm not a doctor I'm not a nutritionist gonna just say that out there but I know a lot about the two and I know exactly what not to do now well in a way you have

you're just as valuable because you have in-field, first-hand experience. It's one thing to be an expert and talk about things, but you're actually applying this in the field, in the races. So that's... Well, she's the doctor and the patient herself. Don't tell my PT that. Well, if you ever get a chance to listen to some of the other episodes, this show has also evolved since it started last year, but it's a lot about...

building habits. It's all about mindset. It's all about starting something new. And so today was fascinating. So I think there's a lot more for us to talk about in the next year. You know what you should do? You should listen to our podcast while you run your races. You'll get first place every single time. I'm sure. The positivity...

For the easier races that aren't too technical and training, I listen to e-books a lot. I get so much reading done now that I'm a runner. But I was thinking, like a lot of people are saying, you should really start listening to podcasts. So I think I'm going to start. I'll start with yours. And then we'll sponsor you next time. We'll have the Honest Dream kind of logo on your back as you're running. I mean, yeah, sure. Can we do that? Yeah, you can do that. It'll be great motivation for us to do more shows, too, because...

With your 24-hour races, you'd go through the entire library in like two races. Okay, I'm down for that. Cheers, Kate. We got you, Kate. All right, good luck for your race. Thank you. You know you're going to dominate. Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, good luck in the new year, and we want to see you keep doing your thing, keep succeeding, keep winning. And it was really great to know you, and we'll have you back on soon. Sounds good. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for having me. Cheers. Cheers. All right, guys.

That was Kate. This is The Honest Drink. We were drinking Plantation XO Rum, which is delicious, and we will keep drinking that. 20th anniversary. We're going to keep drinking this. Everybody's trying to, like, I noticed, like, how he's trying to talk with a raspy voice just so people will stop saying, I can't tell the difference. They can't tell the difference.

- Seriously. - I think, no, someone in the comment section had a really good point. They were like-- - Watch the videos. - Yeah, watch the videos. - Watch the videos. - Put the face to the voice. - Hey, for people who listen to this podcast who don't know, we do have another video album and a video channel you can look with subtitles for our short clips. So if you're listening on Shimalaya, we have a video album you can just search THD, you'll see it. If you're not on Shimalaya, you can look on Bilibili. We're catching up.

We haven't posted all the videos yet, but we're catching up. We have a video channel there. Or on YouTube. It's still the older episodes, but we're still trying to catch up with our archive of all these episodes. It's a lot of work. But anyway, just to let you guys know. Join us on WeChat. We love you all. Be good. Be well. I'm Justin. I'm Eric. And I'm... All right, guys. Merry Christmas. Well, it's already going to be past Christmas. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Peace, guys. We love you. Peace. Bye. Bye.

The rest is sad, we'll see. We're loving what she loves. I'm the man I would find.