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Continuing coverage now. More family members associated with the Wagners take the witness stand against George Wagner IV.
Can you tell us what your relationship was like with Angela? I did not like her. And why was that? She was so judgmental. She would judge people and she had more skeletons in her closet than anybody. Now during cross-examination, Chris Newcomb told defense attorney John Parker that George Wagner is like the brother he always wanted. He had far less kind things to say about Jake.
This is the Piketon Massacre: Return to Pike County.
Season 4, episode 15, just like the movies. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker and Jeff Shane. The murder trial of George Wagner IV taking place in the Little Red Courthouse in Waverly, Ohio continues. A fall chill is beginning to grip the small town with overcast skies and temperatures in the low 50s. There's a promise of a much more biting winter ahead.
In the biggest criminal proceeding in Ohio's history, Special Prosecutor Angie Canepa is seeking justice for the execution-style murders of eight members of the Roden, Gilley, and Manley families in 2016. It's been a profoundly emotional trial as the Roden family members and friends have been forced to relive the earth-shattering murders that left their family in ruins. Murders that George Wagner IV's defense team claims he had nothing to do with.
George Wagner has pled not guilty to all charges, as has his father, Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming. George's brother, Jake, and his mother, Angela, have already pled guilty. While it's true that there's been little hard evidence tying George Wagner to the actual crime scenes, Prosecutor Canepa has mounted a strong argument that the Wagners did everything as an inexorable unit. Today ushers in several critical new witnesses, including Angela Wagner's half-brother, Chris Newcomb.
They share a mother, Rita Newcomb, but Chris is 20 years Angela's junior. Technically, he's Jake and George Wagner's uncle, but they're so close in age they're more like brothers. Newcomb wears a gray shirt, black sweatshirt, and has a thick tuft of hair on his chin. Here he is being examined on the stand. Can you tell us the dynamics between your sister Angela and her two sons, Jake and George?
How would you describe that relationship? On her part, controlling is all get out. Okay. Tell me about that. What do you mean by controlling as all get out? She told him to jump, they jump. I think that's the politest way I can put that. Did she also try to exact control over you? She tried to several times. Okay. And specifically, would she try to exert control over you regarding your children or how you were? She did a few times, but I told her...
Certain things. I ain't going to say exactly what I said to her. Just respond to the question. Okay, so she attempted to, but she was not successful in that regard. Yeah. Correct. Okay. And can you tell us what her relationship was like with Billy? Give me a minute. Dysfunctional? Sound about right? Okay. And why do you say that? If you know Billy...
Pretty much no way it was dysfunctional. Okay. And so, so go ahead and tell me about that. Tell me about your observations or your experience with Billy. He's about as useless as tits on a borehole. Okay. I'm sorry. Am I allowed to say that? Yes. I'm sorry. And, and why, why do you say that specifically? Lazy. Didn't want to do nothing. Always running his mouth. Always scheming on some way or another. Okay.
grinded his teeth beyond recognition. That's enough to drive anybody crazy. Chris Newcomb was woven into the Wagner family fabric. He bought amphetamines for Billy Wagner and guns for George. And specifically, did you ever help George locate a .40 caliber Glock? Yes. Tell me about that, what you recall from that. He asked me to try to find him a .40 caliber Glock. He said it'd probably be a hard one to find.
As we'll learn, a Glock magazine was found among the murder weapons that were discovered by investigators.
It was hidden in a concrete bucket at the bottom of a pond at the Wagners Flying W farm. When Chris Newcomb first learned of the Wagners' possible involvement in the homicides and the Wagners asked him not to cooperate with the BCI, he was devastated. Was there ever a time that Jake or George or Angela told you not to talk to BCI? Yes. And who told you that? Angela, Jake, George.
You became aware that Jake pled guilty in this case, correct? Yep. Okay. Prior to that point, had you more or less defended them? Yes, I did. And can you tell us how you felt at that time? Enraged. Tell me about that. If I'd have had Jake in front of me at the time, I'd have probably beat him to an inch of his life. I would have believed a thousand times my family had nothing whatsoever to do with this.
And then it just made me look like the biggest idiot coming and going whenever Jay came out and confessed to it. And I just felt, I can't think of the right word. I want to say a certain word, but I can't think of what it is. I'm trying to think of the word I'm looking for. Betrayed. But Newcomb took pains to paint George Wagner in a more favorable light than the rest of his family. According to Chris, George was fun and laid back. He loved whipping around on his ATV until he was covered headstone mud.
Jake, on the other hand, was uptight and irascible about everything, particularly people treading dirt onto his truck. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Hearing Chris Newcomb say the word betrayed, I mean, that's really the word that probably sums it up best. Here you're a very best friend in all of the world, someone you consider like a brother.
You defend them to the death again and again and again, and then you find out that they were all lying to you? Yeah, and I feel like Chris Newcomb's testimony really paints a good contrast of the personality differences between Jake's controlling nature kind of being similar to Angela in that way and George being so different from members of his family. He could seem like a character witness for George Wagner because as we know, he considered him a brother and was shocked by
and an almost disbelief that he could be involved with these murders. And that they would actually do something that in many ways harmed his own mother, Rita Newcomb, who's also Angela's mother. He said it here on the podcast last season that he'll never forgive his half-sister, Angela Wagner, for what she did to his mother.
I mean, even just being in the courtroom and seeing George for the very first time after all of these years, knowing what he's standing accused of, knowing that his testimony is also a part of that trial that's going to frankly be used against him. That's a hard line to walk.
Yes, there's been a few people that we've talked to over the years that have kind of had to grapple with what they knew about the Wagners versus what they're accused of doing. And I think Chris Newcomb really encapsulates this. And we hear in his testimony, I mean, I think he really wavers on his feelings toward the family. In the cross-examination, defense attorney John Parker drew a stark dividing line between the Wagner brothers. George and Jake, are they the same? No.
- Explain that if you could. - Night and day. - Night and day? - Yep. - Can you give me some more details how George is different than Jake? - Me and him, we vibed a lot better because we both liked about the same things. - Okay. - We had a lot of the same interests. Jake, not so much. - All right. - We was all like brothers, yes. He was like the brother that I always wanted. Jake was like the brother I wish I never had. - And if you needed something in the middle of the night, could you call George?
Absolutely. He'd show up in the middle of the night? Absolutely. No questions asked. Angie Canepa, however, was quick to diffuse any notion that George was all that different from the rest of the Wagner clan. And you indicated that Jake would basically fall into line pretty quickly with Angela, correct? Yes. But George might push back a little more. He would. He'd push back. Okay. In the end, would he still do what his mother told him to do? Most of the time, yeah. Okay. So he'd argue...
But in the end you would do what you said. Yeah. And again, the first time they went to Alaska, was that as a family? Yes. All four of them? Yes. Okay. And when they went back to Alaska again, it was all four of them as a family, correct? All four of them plus the kids, you know. Plus the two kids, right? Okay. And during George's adult life, have you ever known him not to live with his mother and his brother? No. No.
One thing Jake and George did see eye to eye on was their favorite movie and TV show. According to Chris Newcomb, they were Boondock Saints and The Walking Dead. And it was both Jake and George who said that their favorite movie was Boondock Saints. Pretty sure. And can you tell us generally what the theme of that movie is? Two brothers and their idiot friend kill a bunch of mafia guys and hit men and...
Anybody had anything to do with the mafia? And in one of the series, does the father also join them? That's "Boondock Saints 2," yeah. Can you tell us, was there a time that you saw both Jake and George with their hair dyed dark? Yes. Okay. And can you tell me how you remember that? They just showed up at the house one day and I told them it looked stupid or dumb.
Was there any comment made by either one of them explaining why they had dyed their hair? Jake was laughing and said, "Don't you think I look like Daryl?" And I thought, "Nope, not even close." And who is Daryl? A character off of The Walking Dead. And that character is played by Norman Reedus, correct? Yes.
And he also plays one of the brothers in Boondock Saints, correct? Yes. And can you remember when that was in relation to the homicides, when you saw them with their hair dyed? I can't remember. It was right before or right after, somewhere around in there. Okay. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
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During her questioning, Kanepa showed a clip from Boondock Saints to the jury.
Law & Order crime reporter Anjanette Levy, who has been following the case from the beginning and was in the courtroom, explains.
The Boondock Saint clip, we kind of knew a long time ago from seeing some court records that that was somehow relevant or the prosecution believed that was pertinent to the case or had something to do with the case. And it's just like this clip of, I guess, a Mexican man holding up two Colt 1911 .22 calibers with
silencers on them and saying, ding dong, mother effer. So there are two brothers in that movie who are twins and they go out on this vigilante killing spree in the name of religion. And Chris Newcomb testified that this was Jake and George's favorite movie. So
We think that the prosecution is going to say, hey, this is, you know, something they liked. This is something that influenced them. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff. These movie references and the fact that George and Jake both dyed their hair black has gotten a lot of play throughout this trial. And on the one hand, yeah, of course, it's very interesting and strange and scary to
On the flip of that, does that really count as major evidence? We've heard a lot over the years about various criminals being influenced by the media, whether it be a violent video game or a scary movie. And I think this is a perfect example of the prosecution really making a meal of that and whether or not it actually was an influence. It's like you said, Steph, very hard to prove in court. And there's a million holes you could poke in it.
Again, it does make it interesting. You could see the movie. You can see this playing out like a movie. But this is real life. The stakes are so high. I had a conversation with Jason Flom, founding board member of the Innocence Project, host of the hit podcast Wrongful Conviction, and producer of the podcasts Bone Valley and the newly released War on Drugs. I asked him first about his connection to the movie Boondock Saints.
I think I was working at Atlantic Records at the time, but I don't remember which label it was, to be fair, because, you know, my day job is and has been as a music executive. Now it seems like I'm more well known for criminal justice reform work. But I have been in the music business since I was 18 years old. And that's a lot of years anyway. So I was working at a label and Boondock Saints came to my attention. The singer Troy said,
had written this script that had become the object of a huge bidding war in Hollywood. I learned that he had a band by the same name as the movie and the script, which was called the Boondock Saints. So naturally, I was curious because this seemed like such an almost too good to be true story. Bartender, bidding war, you know, the whole thing. So I don't remember how I first got in touch with them, but
and ended up meeting with the guys. I think I may have seen them play, and I was impressed, and the music was good. So I signed them to a record deal. Can you talk a little bit about...
the cultural relevancy of the movie. I mean, it was a phenomenon that's obviously still talked about today. Yeah. The movie became this, I guess you'd call it a cult classic. I don't know how else to refer to it. I think in terms of its impact relative to its commercial success, you put it at the top of that sort of matrix, right? Where it's been talked about
and continues to be talked about in shows like yours for the most random of reasons and it's such a crazy coincidence that i have the connection to the boondock saints
and because i've always been a you know a rock guy i've always liked rock and roll music always i've signed rock and roll music throughout my career it's amazing that this movie has resonated when how many tens of thousands of movies have been made since then and many of them are you know have lots of guns and lots of shootings lots of violence and lots of everything that the boondock saints has but this one for some reason has really stuck in the zeitgeist
What are your thoughts about the fact that the prosecution in a murder trial is playing a clip of the movie, specifically they play the ding-dong motherfucker portion of it, and also what they're saying is that the Wagners, the family that specifically Jake, who admitted to murdering five of the eight murderers, that he watched it right before to get psyched up, quote, for the murders. Yeah.
I mean, that is a sort of a dirty trick that's used. You know, now I guess it's a hot topic because it's used in these trials where they're actually almost trying hip hop artists on their lyrics, right? They're using those as like evidence when it's art, you know?
you know it's like it's not it's not an affidavit like david bowie sang a song about being an astronaut but he wasn't an astronaut right nobody's confused about that the idea that these things can or should be used in a court of law strikes me as absurd and maybe that's too kind of a word you know you look back on cases like
the West Memphis Three, right, where the idea that they liked heavy metal music was a big, they had no evidence against them. It's hard for me to see how that's relevant. To me, it seems whether it happened or not, just so besides the point and the relevancy in a court of law seems insane to me. I think it's a very cynical way of prosecutors trying to manipulate juries into believing what they want them to believe. Often,
Not in this case necessarily, but in many cases, often because they have no evidence against the person. Like the West Memphis 3, but more recently, you know, we did a podcast on my show, wrongful conviction. We covered, um. The case of Patty Pruitt, Maggie Freeling hosted that episode and.
Patty Pruitt was and is an innocent woman in Missouri who's been in prison for 36 years. And the only evidence they really had against her was the fact that she liked to read crime novels. I mean, that's what people read. They read romance novels. They read crime novels. It doesn't mean anything. It just means that's what they like to read. So,
You know, the idea that they were able to weaponize the fact that she enjoyed books by whether it's Scott Patterson or Scott Turow or John Grisham is so, you know, it would be laughable if it wasn't so sinister. And I think there's a line, it's not the same, but there's a line between these things. And I hope that people that are listening to us now when they serve on juries will remember this and discount any sort of nonsense that's thrown their way along these lines.
Again, much has been made in court about the fact that Jake and George dyed their hair black, allegedly to look like Norman Reedus and Boondock Saints. You know, do you think that should be a topic of conversation in a murder trial or not?
And let's say they dyed their hair blonde to look like the guy in Fast Times at Richmond High, right? I mean, like, you know, does that mean that they didn't do it? Because if one is true, then shouldn't the other be true? I mean, what does that have to do with anything? It all comes back to the same thing, which is that, you know, one of the reasons why I do this work and why I think this platform is so important and the podcasting platform is so important is because
We need to have a more educated and more skeptical pool of jurors who will look at actual evidence instead of hyperbole, insinuation, and other sorts of nonsense, like I said, that's thrown their way, and then make judgments on the facts. And if I could encourage people that are listening, serve on juries, number one. Don't throw out that jury duty note.
serve on juries. It's not just a responsibility, it should be an honor. And second of all, when you do, remember the standard is and must be beyond a reasonable doubt. And the other phrase to remember is innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. Just because somebody's sitting in a defendant's chair and just because there's people in uniforms or in suits and ties or in lab coats that are saying,
Yep. You know, Courtney did it because we say so. And that's not that's not it. Unfortunately, it seems like the situation has gotten it certainly doesn't feel like it's getting better, but it almost feels like it's it's just at a very low bar. What happens in our courtrooms? We should expect that our courtrooms.
elected prosecutors or judges or appointed or whatever they may be, would adhere to a standard that is, you know, the ideal, you know, the justice with the scales and the blindfold. And that's the standard. I hope I live long enough to see it where we have a system that really does it, at least does its best to get it right.
Following testimony about the Boondock Saints and potential relevancy of the hair dye, there was also discussion of the profile picture George Wagner began to use after the murders. It was a depiction of a one-eyed wolf. Whether or not George Wagner was aware of it, wolves are native symbols of loyalty and close family ties. And was there also something that you saw on Facebook that, looking back? There was a profile picture on Facebook.
And what was that? A wolf missing an eye. And why did that, when looking back, what significance did that have to you? Just kind of ironic, I guess you could call it. And why was it ironic? Because it was a wolf shot in the face. Were you aware of one of the victims being shot in the eye? Yes. And whose profile was that? George's. I have no other questions at this time, Your Honor. We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
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Joseph Morgan has doubts about whether Chris Newcomb's testimony bolstered the prosecution's case. You know, you think, well, when they got back to their office, the prosecution looked at one another and said, yeah, I don't necessarily know if Mr. Newcomb was the best witness for us in this case. Because, you know, when you're, you know, you begin to
paint George, per this guy's testimony, as not the monster that perhaps prosecution wanted him painted as. I don't know that he necessarily helped the prosecution's case. More on that next time. I continued my conversation with Jason Flom, specifically his thoughts on people who have been wrongfully convicted. The only thing I'll add is that for the audience, you have such an awesome audience, and for them, I'll say, if you don't think this can happen to you, this can happen to you.
And if you don't believe me, listen to Wrongful Conviction. You'll see. It's like these stories are just absolutely mind-boggling. In fact, start with the Patti Pruitt episode. Your head will explode and you'll want to literally jump on a turnpike and drive to Missouri and protest. Like, what is this woman doing in prison? It doesn't make any freaking sense. And that's true of every episode that we covered. I can sincerely say I love your shows. They're beautifully done. And as a listener, I really appreciate everything you do.
We're all in this together and I'm very proud of where we're at and with Bone Valley being such a big hit and I'm sure a lot of the fans of Pike the Massacre are probably fans of Bone Valley as well. And now we have our new show, The War on Drugs, that just dropped today. So very excited about this 2023. We're going to continue to influence hearts and minds. And it's interesting because your show is sort of the, almost like a counterpoint, but at the same time, even...
Even though it seems overwhelmingly likely that they got the right people here in your show, it's still an incredible expose of how busted up the system is in Ohio and elsewhere. So I'm really proud of the work that you guys do. Thank you so much, Jason, really. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios.
The Pikedon Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Alan Weider, Andrew Arnau, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston. The Pikedon Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Who could have killed eight family members in one night?
I lost my best friend and I will never be the same because of that day. Four crime scenes, no DNA, no witnesses. The killer left those children laying in their mother's blood. The word that comes to mind is overkill. Who was the mastermind? I'm telling you, if they frame us, I'm not sitting in prison. One thing I learned...
The smaller the town, the bigger the secrets. Be sure to watch our upcoming documentary, The Pike County Murders, A Family Massacre, premiering on NBCUniversal's Oxygen Network and also streaming on Peacock this Thanksgiving Day weekend, November 24th and November 25th. Please check your local listings, and our hearts are with the Rodens and the Gilley families.
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