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cover of episode Atul Gawande on Elon Musk’s “Surgery with a Chainsaw”

Atul Gawande on Elon Musk’s “Surgery with a Chainsaw”

2025/3/14
logo of podcast The New Yorker Radio Hour

The New Yorker Radio Hour

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Atul Gawande
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David Remnick
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Atul Gawande: 我在 USAID 担任要职期间,亲眼目睹了该机构为全球健康事业做出的巨大贡献。我们挽救了数百万人的生命,并为许多国家的医疗系统建设提供了支持。我们的工作是高效且有影响力的,但遭到了一些人的恶意攻击和歪曲。埃隆·马斯克等人的言论完全是无稽之谈,他们对 USAID 的指控毫无根据。他们声称 USAID 资金被滥用,效率低下,但事实并非如此。我们已经采取措施提高资金使用效率,并确保资金能够真正到达需要的人手中。然而,特朗普政府对 USAID 的攻击导致了该机构的瘫痪,数百万人的生命因此受到威胁。许多项目被迫终止,工作人员被解雇,这不仅对全球健康事业造成巨大打击,也严重损害了美国的国际形象和信誉。这场灾难并非不可避免,而是人为造成的。政府应该履行其合同义务,恢复 USAID 的正常运作,并确保全球健康事业能够继续发展。 David Remnick: 通过与 Atul Gawande 的对话,我们了解到特朗普政府对 USAID 的攻击是多么的荒谬和危险。他们不仅切断了对全球健康项目的资金支持,还解雇了大量工作人员,导致许多依赖这些项目的人面临生命危险。这种行为不仅违反了合同,也严重损害了美国的国际形象和信誉。这场攻击不仅仅针对 USAID,也预示着对其他政府机构的攻击即将到来。这场灾难不仅是公共卫生的悲剧,也是美国软实力的丧失。

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Following Donald Trump’s inauguration, Elon Musk tweeted about "feeding USAID into a wood chipper." This reflects the decimation of the Agency for International Development, a crucial element of American soft power, by the new administration. Atul Gawande, former USAID leader, discusses the agency's vital work and the devastating consequences of its dismantling.
  • Elon Musk's tweet symbolized the Trump administration's attack on USAID.
  • USAID's work, including saving millions of lives, was disregarded.
  • The courts blocked some aspects of the purge, but the damage was significant.

Shownotes Transcript

Two weeks after the Inauguration of Donald Trump, Elon Musk tweeted, “We spent the weekend feeding USAID into a wood chipper.” Musk was referring to the Agency for International Development, an agency which supports global health and economic development, and which has saved millions of lives around the world. “A viper’s nest of radical-left lunatics,” Musk called it. U.S.A.I.D.’s funding is authorized by Congress, and its work is a crucial element of American soft power. DOGE has decimated the agency with cuts so sudden and precipitous that federal workers stationed in conflict zones were stranded without safe passage home, as their own government publicly maligned them for alleged fraud and corruption.  Courts have blocked aspects of the federal purge of U.S.A.I.D., but it’s not clear if workers can be rehired and contracts restarted, or whether the damage is done.    

In January, 2022, Atul Gawande, a surgeon and leading public health expert who has written) for The New Yorker since 1998, was sworn in as assistant administrator for global health at U.S.A.I.D. He resigned as the new administration came to power, and is watching in shock as Trump and Musk make U.S.A.I.D. a guinea pig for the government-wide purge now under way. U.S.A.I.D. was, he admits, a soft target for MAGA—helping people in faraway countries. Gawande calls U.S.A.I.D. “America at its best.” But with Trump and Musk, “there’s a different world view at play here,” he says. “Power is what matters, not impact.”