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cover of episode Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism

Rashid Khalidi on the Palestinian Cause in a Volatile Middle East, and the Meaning of Settler Colonialism

2024/12/13
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The New Yorker Radio Hour

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Adam Kirsch
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David Remnick
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Rashid Khalidi
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Rashid Khalidi:哈马斯对地区局势的误判导致了加沙战争,所谓的"抵抗轴心"并非真正为了巴勒斯坦利益,而是伊朗维护自身政权的工具。巴勒斯坦民族运动四分五裂,缺乏有效策略,以色列的殖民政策和暴力回应加剧了冲突,和平解决需要取消以色列的殖民结构,实现双方在自决和公平待遇上的平等。双方都遭受了创伤,但巴勒斯坦的伤亡远大于以色列。巴以冲突最终只能通过妥协和和解来解决,没有其他途径。 Adam Kirsch:定居者殖民理论是一种过于简单的视角,将冲突参与者简单地划分为定居者和原住民。将定居者殖民理论应用于以色列是一种零和博弈的视角,认为以色列应该被消灭。锡安主义运动虽然反对阿拉伯人的愿望,但其动机是犹太人民的历史联系和对欧洲反犹太主义的生存必要性。定居者殖民理论不适用于巴以冲突,因为巴以冲突并非一个民族被另一个民族完全取代的案例。目前难以想象巴以冲突的和平解决,两国方案缺乏可信度,而民族国家方案也不现实。对于犹太人来说,拥有一个犹太国家是必要的,多元化在现实中难以实现。只有以色列这个国家会面临“应该从地图上抹去”的呼吁,这与犹太人在西方文明中的独特地位以及以色列国家的脆弱性有关。 David Remnick:尽管存在分歧,但双方都承认巴以双方都需要找到某种形式的未来和解。

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Key Insights

Why does Rashid Khalidi believe the Palestinian cause has not been significantly set back by recent events in the Middle East?

Khalidi argues that the idea of the Palestinians being bereft of allies assumes they had people doing things for their interest, which he doesn't think was true. He believes the so-called Axis of Resistance, led by Iran, was designed to protect Iran, not Palestine.

What does Rashid Khalidi mean by 'settler colonialism' in relation to Israel?

Khalidi defines settler colonialism as the early Zionists' understanding of their effort as colonization, which they described themselves. He argues that Zionism, while initially a refuge for persecuted Jews, evolved into a settler colonial project with the support of imperial powers like Britain.

How does Adam Kirsch differ from Rashid Khalidi in his view of settler colonialism?

Kirsch argues that settler colonialism is a zero-sum way of looking at the conflict, implying the destruction of one people by another. He believes the history of Israel and Palestine doesn't fit this model, as there are now roughly equal numbers of Jews and Arabs, making replacement or elimination unrealistic.

What does Rashid Khalidi suggest as a pathway to resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?

Khalidi believes compromise and reconciliation are inevitable, as neither side can eliminate the other. He suggests a binational state as a preferred solution, but acknowledges the need for dismantling colonial structures and achieving justice and equality for both peoples.

Why does Adam Kirsch believe a binational state is not a realistic solution for Israel and Palestine?

Kirsch argues that binational states, like those in Yugoslavia or Lebanon, often fail due to deep-rooted hatred and conflict between the groups. He believes a two-state solution is more realistic, as it allows both peoples to maintain their separate identities and avoid the violence of a shared state.

What does Rashid Khalidi criticize about Hamas's actions on October 7th?

Khalidi criticizes Hamas for not adhering to international humanitarian law, arguing that killing civilians is morally wrong, counterproductive politically, and a violation of international law. He believes their actions helped provoke Israel's harsh response.

How does Rashid Khalidi describe the current state of the Palestinian national movement?

Khalidi describes the Palestinian national movement as fragmented and lacking a viable strategy. He believes both major factions, Hamas and Fatah, are discredited and that the Palestinians are in worse shape due to ongoing Israeli annexation and settlement expansion.

What does Adam Kirsch argue is the danger of the settler colonialism framework?

Kirsch argues that the settler colonialism framework promotes a zero-sum view of the conflict, implying the elimination of one group. He believes this leads to rhetoric that denies Israel's right to exist and creates a perpetual cycle of violence and conflict.

Shownotes Transcript

  • Power dynamics in the Middle East shifted dramatically this year. In Lebanon, Israel dealt a severe blow toHezbollah, and another crucial ally of Iran—Bashar al-Assad’s regime in Syria—was toppled by insurgents. But the historian Rashid Khalidi is skeptical that these changes will set back the Palestinian cause, as it relates to Israel. “This idea that the Palestinians are bereft of allies assumes that they had people who were doing things for their interest,” Khalidi tells David Remnick, “which I don’t think was true.” The limited responses to the war in Gaza by Iran and Hezbollah, Khalidi believes, clearly demonstrate that Iran’s so-called Axis of Resistance “was designed by Iran to protect the Iranian regime. . . . It wasn’t designed to protect Palestine.” Khalidi, a professor emeritus at Columbia University, is the author of a number of books on Palestinian history; among them, “The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine)” has been particularly influential. The book helped bring the term “settler colonialism” into common parlance, at least on the left, to describe Israel’s relationship to historic Palestine. Sometimes invoked as a term of opprobrium, “settler colonialism” is strongly disputed by supporters of Israel. Khalidi asserts that the description is historically specific and accurate. The early Zionists, he says, understood their effort as colonization. “That’s not some antisemitic slur,” he says. “That’s the description they gave themselves.”
  • The concept of settler colonialism has been applied, on the political left, to describe Israel’s founding, and to its settlement of the Palestinian-occupied territories. This usage has been disputed by supporters of Israel and by thinkers including Adam Kirsch, an editor at the Wall Street Journal, who has also written) about philosophy for The New Yorker. “Settler colonialism is . . . a zero-sum way of looking at the conflict,” Kirsch tells David Remnick. “In the classic examples, it involves the destruction of one people by another and their replacement over a large territory, really a continent-wide territory. That’s not at all the history of Israel and Palestine.” Kirsch made his case in a recent book, “On Settler Colonialism: Ideology, Violence, and Justice).”