Adding Fuel to the Fire: A Season 1 Recap
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What's your drink of choice? A Negroni. I was going to say the same thing. Magliato. With Prosecco in it. Oh, stunning. Yeah. Oh my God. Oh, stunning. The delivery, the timing on that delivery is just so perfect.

Perfect. It keeps going. And, you know, as a person who doesn't really drink, is not like a drink drinker, it just sounds so classy to me. Well, yeah. It evokes a lifestyle that I only could wish to access. But do you think like having Emma describe any drink, it would be like that? Like if they were like yellow Gatorade, you'd be like, OK, cool. Let's do that. Yeah.

And Arnold Palmer with ice. It's lemonade. Ooh! Plus iced tea. Stunning! LAUGHTER

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion, host of the podcast X-Ray Vision from Crooked Media. And I'm Greta Johnson, host of WBEZ's Nerd App podcast. And this is a Game of Thrones podcast for everyone, whether you're an OG Thrones watcher or you just started your journey with the HBO original series, House of the Dragon. And we're back from our final episode of season one.

After the dragons fly, it is time for the takes to fly. A lot to unpack. And as a reminder, we'll be doing post-season episodes bi-weekly starting today. Yeah, meaning every other week, not twice a week. That's right. Just to be clear. We are going to be unpacking season one along with debating who's right between Team Green and Team Black. And we're also going to be talking about what we wish we may have seen this season. Greta, let's start with our reactions, your thoughts on the season.

Oh my gosh. I mean, I thought it was a hell of a season. I think it is really interesting to compare it to how a lot of Game of Thrones seasons went, just in terms of like general arc, which we've talked a little bit about. But yeah, between that and the characters and the pacing, I mean, there's definitely a lot to unpack with this. So I'm excited for us to get to it. What'd you think? I loved it. As I've said this numerous times on this podcast at this point, but as a book reader, I was delighted to see

see how many real surprises there were. Yeah, that's cool. And...

Ryan Conville talks about it on our finale episode, how this show really acts as a companion piece. Like, it really informs the text in a really interesting way. I really enjoyed it. Quite enjoyed it. And the performances are, like, chilling. Amazing. Oh, my God. Incredible. Absolutely. Well, and to figure out that balance between, like, having it be fun for the book readers and exciting and new and different, but also still make sense for those of us who didn't read the book is such a fine line, and they did such a good job with that. They really did. I agree. I also think, I mean...

The pacing in this season... This could have been three seasons of Game of Thrones, probably. Don't you think? Easily.

When I've been talking about this show with other folks, with friends, with family members who maybe weren't the biggest Thrones people. Right. The pacing was always a point of discussion because, you know, I think you could say reasonably that if you were going to write a season of television, you wouldn't do it with multiple time jumps. Right. But that is how the story has to be told. And, you know,

I think people's feelings about the time jumps defined how they felt about the show in a large way. Yeah, I mean, I think about, you know, especially in some of those seasons of Game of Thrones, like, and, you know, I remember even talking about this in Nerdette Recaps with Peter Sagal, and Peter would be like, well, you've got to move the pieces on the board around. And this is one of those episodes where we're just putting everybody into place. And I understand that from a, like, larger story point of view. But when it comes down to it,

That means you often end up with an episode that feels kind of boring, that doesn't move super fast. And I would definitely prefer like aggressive time jumps to people kind of plotting around. Yeah. And I think that the production managed the time jumps in a way that felt, at least to me, you know, everyone's mileage may vary, but it made me sit forward a little bit. Oh, what's this? Something new actors, new time players.

What is this they're talking about? Who are these people they're talking about? What does this mean? How are they reacting to each other now? What must have happened in the time that we missed? And that was really energizing, at least for me. And so I quite enjoyed it. And, you know, again, as...

reading the text, it was always a question of, well, how are they going to manage this? Because this really is a story that takes place over 30 plus years. Season one unfolds over the course of two decades. Yeah, I think especially with the kid casting, I got a little bit lost with some of those characters in there during the time jumps. I think that was a little tricky. I think...

I loved the casting, obviously, of Alicent and Rhaenyra. I thought both the young and now current versions are phenomenal and can't wait to see what's next with that. I did talk to a friend recently who found the time jumps a little bit frustrating because he thought that we ended up investing in characters who died immediately thereafter. Yeah.

I don't disagree with that. Listen, Harwin, anybody who has been on House of the Dragon Associated social media in recent days cannot help but notice the fervent cult of Harwin Strong that is just burgeoning out there with wonderful pieces of fan art and et cetera. Another boy, I heard. What a fine night you were going to make, eh? So Harwin wishes to be introduced to Joffrey. Joffrey, is it? Mm-hmm.

Sleep in front of the commander of the city, what? Terrible lack of respect. A certain insolence runs in the family, I'm afraid.

At the same time, kind of a good problem to have, right? I like this person so much that I miss them. I think so, too. Well, I mean, the other version that my friend mentioned, which is also fair, is that I didn't get to know them enough to miss them, which could be considered a bummer, I think. But I don't know. Again, I would rather have things move along at this clip than otherwise. So I was mostly okay with it. Here's a pitch from me to you. Okay.

The Romance Years, Harwin and Rhaenyra. Oh, I would watch that. Separate from all the politics and stuff, just them skulking around two crazy kids in love.

You know, rendezvous in the Red Keep and elsewhere. I know, I was going to say secret hookups. Yeah, that sounds hot. I would totally watch that. It's funny to think about how many spinoffs you could have even just from this one season. It was a lot. I mean, you know, we talked about, oh my gosh, I can't even remember her name because she was so short-lived. Damon's first wife, rest in peace. Oh, the lady Rhea Royce. RIP. Oh my God. She seemed like such a badass. I knew you couldn't finish.

Craven. I would totally spend some time with her. She seemed really, really, really cool. And my initial reaction upon meeting her was, man, Damon, you're... Yeah, right? Of course, killing her is an insult above any other. But the way he talked about her was unjust and unfair. Also true. I loved what Ryan said last week about the murder cloak, by the way. Yeah, the crime time cloak.

for Damon to strike back at the king who's always held this loveless marriage as basically a prison for Damon to keep him controlled and keep him from doing the things he wanted to do. So Damon goes and destroys it. That little line from the book becomes that thing. Of course, the historians that lived through this period would have no way of knowing that unless they followed Damon into the veil in his

crime committing cloak his crime cloak that's amazing you always know it's up to he's up to no good when damon's got his hair covered

I don't know. I mean, if we're making pitches about other offshoots you could do from season one, I mean, I do like the, the Westeros TMZ slash gossip girl situation. I think there's a lot to work with there. I'm just saying. Yeah. XOXO. I guess he's fucking their bodyguard.

It's just so good. It just would be really fun. It's like West Wing, but Westeros. Westeros Wing. Yeah. What about this? Strong in the family. A kind of like fuddy-duddy wise dad with his hot young son and the kind of mysterious...

outsidery, like out of step with everyone else, younger son who maybe has a secret. And that secret is plotting the deaths of his dad and older brother. Yeah, I mean, I would watch that. It sounds intense, but it sounds charming. I think we could work with it for sure.

Is there like a maester drama you could have too? You know, ER style? God, would that just be gory? It would be so grim. Well, first of all, I'm glad you brought this up because you and I and many of us who have watched this show, we're getting on Grand Maester Mellos' ass about the poultice versus the maggots. The leeches versus the poultice. Oh yeah, the leeches. Good Lord. It's just like, this is, these are bad options. And I gotta say, it must be said that

At the end of the day, he did keep him alive for decades longer than anybody thought. Than any of us anticipated. Did he not do a great job? Now, at a certain point, you know, Grand Maester Malice was aged and those duties were handed off to Grand Maester Orwell. That said, it's hard to escape that.

the realization that Melos did a good job. Whatever our criticisms of his, you know, expertise, he did a good job. Yeah. Do you think he had a good retirement party? I think he probably just dropped dead at work. Another thing that happens a lot in Westeros. I was wondering, so we've watched this unfold now, this kind of like schism that's clearly evolving into a hot civil war. And, you know, we watched...

These kind of rhetorical battles, political battles between two sides that came to be known as the Greens and the Blacks. The Greens, the party of Alison Hightower and her supporters, and the Blacks, the supporters of Raniere and, of course, the royal family of...

itself. Do you have any particular allegiance? Is there a particular side that you think is right or more wrong than the other? Less wrong? You certainly can't say either side went about their work justly. Yes. And we, you know, this is something else we talked about with Ryan the other day. Like, I do think that's partly why we love this shows like this so much, right? Complicated characters are really fun and interesting to engage with. It's

It's much more intriguing than someone who is just simply like capital G, good, capital B, bad. Absolutely. That said, I think I'm team Black. I mean...

And for a lot of reasons that we have talked about over the course of the season, Rhaenyra seems like she's going to be a good leader. She's also who Viserys thought should lead. She's also a good mother. You know, I mean, Daemon obviously is, speaking of complicated, like a murderer. Yes. And, you know, Aegon seems like he would make a truly atrocious king. Oh, awful. Like your best hope with Aegon is somebody else does most of the actual political managing.

Yes. All that said, I think I have a lot more compassion for Alicent than a lot of people do. I mean, something that's been really interesting, speaking of, you know, stuff that's happened on social media over the course of the last 10 weeks, is that people really seem to hate Alicent. And I get it. But as we've talked about, too, she's such a product of the horrible system that she came up in. And I actually think that

her intense anger is really relatable. You know, like I can totally see how she got to where she ended up and I have a lot of compassion for that. I feel the same way. You know, it was interesting to hear co-showrunner Ryan Connell talk about how the books are written by men who are green supporters or closet green supporters. Oh, right. Yeah.

Because Alicent is really portrayed as much more conniving, much more ruthless. You mean in the TV show, she's more ruthless and conniving? No, no, in the books. Oh, okay. You know, this was all part of a plan and she always saw the threat of Rhaenyra looming. Oh, okay. I get it. And she, you know, correctly read the political landscape of Westeros and thus was always positioning herself in opposition to Rhaenyra. And I think that

I much prefer the show version because you see how at every turn she – I mean you said it. She's a product of her environment. At every turn, she's using that experience of growing up in this patriarchal system to the best that she can and the only way she knows how make –

of bad situations. And at various points, especially when they were younger, she is supporting Rhaenyra in ways that Rhaenyra has no idea about, like supporting her with Viserys the King, her father. Yes. You know, backing up her stories, et cetera, et cetera. A couple times, yeah. Yeah, a couple times. And all of these things are things that Rhaenyra had no idea about. And that made the turn feel, to your point, a lot more relatable because who hasn't felt the sting of,

being, in your eyes, generous to a person, giving a person a break, and then them doing something where you're finally like, you know what? Enough. All the stuff that people have been saying about this person, they're right. I don't know why I didn't see it now. And it makes that flip a lot stronger when it happens. So I really related to the way Allison, you know, when the break finally happens, I really related to Allison's anger. That said,

I'm pretty strongly team black. You know, in the books, you feel really strongly that Rhaenyra and her side were done an injustice. And while I acknowledge that Otto and others are being realistic about the realm's attitudes towards women and towards women as rulers, it's not good. You wouldn't say it's good.

I also think, you know, philosophically speaking, like on a basic level, just accepting that as a state of affairs is not... I don't think we should just be like, well, everybody's a misogynist. The way it is, Jason. I don't know what to tell you. What are you going to do? Yeah, that sucks. And I also feel like they swore oaths, right? In this world, that is the coin of the realm. That's the thing that binds the realm together. And then all of a sudden they decide, well, those were done a long time ago or I otherwise don't agree with it and therefore...

That's illegitimate. Yeah. I've been shocked over the course of this show that no one has called Otto on that. Like, oh, well, we swore to the Targaryens 130 something years ago or whatever it was. Sure. We're not like relitigating that now, like because these oaths were sworn 20 years ago. Now they don't matter. And those people passed away. Like, it's not right what they've done and they've been planning it the whole time. And yeah.

I support Team Black, even though I have to say Viserys handed it to him. Viserys fumbled the bag in the modern parlance. He made so many mistakes. Yes, he made a number of grave mistakes. And yeah, I don't know. It was interesting. That reminds me, it's fun to have this conversation in the context of also remembering all the different interviews we've done with people involved with the show over the course of the season, because I think they brought a lot of really interesting context to it all, too. I mean, I think about...

Olivia Cooke talking about Alicent and how frustrated she is that Rhaenyra can do whatever she wants. Yeah, I get it. And the fact that, you know, Alicent has followed all of the rules and she has done a lot of things that she didn't want to do because she was told she had to. And Rhaenyra gets away with a lot. And I could see that alone being super frustrating. Yeah.

On one of my other podcasts, I was answering listener questions and one person was asking, like, why is Alison, like, isn't she being hypocritical? She was hiding the relationship with Rhaenyra's father for years, potentially. And now she's mad because Rhaenyra was hiding, you know, the dalliance with Criston Cole. Oh, those seem totally different to me. Not only is it totally different, but, like, isn't that how humans react? You know what I mean? Like, just because...

something is reasonable and rational and makes logical sense doesn't mean you don't get in your feelings about it. You know, right. Totally. Yeah, that's allowed. Yeah, that's allowed. Just because like something karmically, some bad deed you had done or a misstep you had made with someone else comes back to you.

Just because you deserve it doesn't mean you're not like, what the fuck? And so again, like Allison's feelings, I related to them very strongly of that feeling of like, I'm over here doing all these things, hanging around with this old guy. I guess I love him and I've developed feelings for him, but like I'm trapped in this role. Yeah. Rhaenyra is going hither and yon. Yeah. Interviewing every potential suitor that her heart could possibly desire and whining about it. And rejecting them all.

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Well, and I think, too, then about, you know, you mentioning Viserys, I think that context that writer Sarah Hess was able to provide around sort of the organizing principle of Viserys' allegiance to Rhaenyra really coming back to his deep, deep love of Emma and

And his intense guilt around how horribly she died and the fact that he would never say Aegon should be king entirely because of that. Yeah. And, you know, thinking about Viserys's many mistakes, I think there's one of them like coming out is one thing to say Rhaenyra is my heir, Rhaenyra is my heir.

How about Aegon will not be king? You know, like, what is the other side of that? There's, you know, various ways he could have supported that, and it makes you feel like, gosh, Viserys, why? Like, for instance, here's a question I have. Why didn't Viserys name either Daemon or Rhaenyra his hand at any point? Daemon certainly, it seemed like, wanted it. And you could also... Right. Listen, I also understand why you don't name Daemon Aeor. I get it. But...

You know, in terms of like adding stability, kind of shoring up the realm, keeping things in the family. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I think with regards to Rhaenyra, what louder statement could be made about this is the person who I want to rule after me. I've selected this person and now they are training and advising me about how to run this country. That is an interesting one. How often is an air the hand?

Often. It happens. Yeah. I mean, it does make sense as having sort of your, like, vice president, essentially. Mm-hmm. Now, I guess you could argue that, and I see the perspective that Viserys, understanding that there were two factions there in the realm, wanting to keep everything in balance and feeling like, well, it's like one for them and one for me. One for me is Rhaenyra is going to be queen, and one for them is let's put Otto in as hand. Right.

So everybody feels like they have a role in this. I could see that side of it. And that's why Viserys, again, feels like a very modern politician, but at the same time, bad idea. Yeah, the whole, I mean, he just wanted to keep the peace so desperately. And the fact that that always meant some degree of compromise for people who are pretty intractable and who have good cases, you know, it's tricky for sure. Yeah. So obviously we watched Renewal.

Rhaenyra and Alyson's relationship kind of fray

and then fray some more, and then get really, really bad, and then seemingly threatened to come back together. There seemed like things were going to get back together. Yeah. And then I would imagine after the death of her son, things are going to be pretty bad. What are you expecting between them in season two? Ryan Connell, I thought, very interestingly said that there's still a chance for them. If they could get away from everybody else, he still feels like emotionally there'd still be a chance that those two could bond. Where do you think that their relationship stands now?

I could totally see that. I mean, I think, you know, and we've talked about this a little bit, like, I think it's completely out of their control now. They could become friends and the war is still going to happen. I could totally see a couple of really interesting plot lines where they are actually giving each other information that would be really helpful to one or the other of them. Oh, wow. Or, you know, that there could be some sort of, like, secret allegiance between them because...

I think you could argue in the end, I think they both do want the same thing. In different ways, yeah. You know, I mean, obviously, Alicent thinks... Because she didn't really think Aegon should be in charge either. She stood by Rhaenyra for so long. Yeah, it's interesting, right? Because I think that she wanted Aegon to be king primarily because she was worried that

about his safety and the safety of her family under Rhaenyra's regime. Now, clearly, Rhaenyra could have done a lot more to kind of assuage those fears. Sure, but how much of that was just like crazy shit that Otto was spouting anyway? You know, I mean, what indication do we have that Rhaenyra is going to kill a bunch of family members? I mean, certainly from what we've seen and the character that we know, both younger and older, that absolutely does not exist in her heart. Now, after the death of her son Luke...

Have things changed? I don't know. Sure. But I will say, you know, one of the things we often say about, you know, they said it about Cersei and it's certainly true about Alicent, as Olivia Cooke mentioned, and it's certainly true about Rhaenyra. These women love their children. And the fact that one of them now has come to tragedy at the hands of the other, you know, after so much animosity has gone on.

it feels as if it would take a superhuman effort to repair this emotional rift. And I think it's going to be, we've never really seen Rhaenyra like furious. We've seen Alicent furious, right? We saw her lose control, right?

on Driftmark. That's very true. I wonder if we're going to see Rhaenyra lose control in that way, furious in that way. Yeah. My guess is that they definitely wouldn't be able to kind of reach across the aisle. I think it will have to get a lot worse before it gets any better. I could see a world where, you know, Rhaenyra is mourning a child. If Alicent finds herself in that position farther down the road, maybe she reaches out because...

she knows Rhaenyra has been through similar pain or, you know, something kind of like that I could see happening. I will say I love the idea that you raised, which similarly is not mentioned in the book, but would be a thing that the historians would miss if it was done secretly enough. This idea that Alicent and Rhaenyra...

feeling things spin out of their control. They're surrounded by these bloodthirsty men who can't wait to make their bones and make their name out in the battlefield somewhere. Them two back-channeling and being like, how do we take the air out of this? What can we do to, like, slow this down? That is a fascinating idea. It could be cool. I think especially with Alyson seeing as much as she does and now having Aegon in charge, if he's not doing what she needs him to do, I could totally see her sending Raven over and being like, look...

Just so you know, don't leave Dragonstone tomorrow or whatever, you know? Right. Something like that. And also, you know, the way Alicent reacted in episode nine to the revelation that her father has been planning for years. Yes. The downfall of Rhaenyra and to seize, to actively seize the throne and to potentially put Rhaenyra and her family to death.

That was a shock to Allison. And everything she does in that episode after that is an attempt to kind of like seize the reins, to seize control. And I think she's not quite aggressive enough. So I'm eager to see if

That continues if she tries even more strongly to be the one in power. And Ryan, I think, said something I've been thinking about a lot, which is the moment that Aegon was crowned king, she gave away more than she realized. Yeah. But just the fact that she would realize that, I think, is important. Totally. Because it would potentially spur her to try and do something about all of this. Well, and it raises a question, which is, I mean, do you think Alicent is team green? Yeah.

I think, yeah. I just think... You think she has to be? Whatever lies in her heart, at the end of the day, there is no opportunity or space for her to make a decision that would be directly out of step. Like, it's... I just think that the structure of this world, the incentives it puts in front of people...

They're too strong. You can't go against them. And if you do, you'll end up with your head chopped off or running to Essos in disgrace. Yeah, fair point. So we talked about this a little bit, but do you have a favorite character from the series? And I'm curious if that's different from your book experience, too. Well, it's interesting because the books don't really carry the same kind of like

punch because they are basically plot. I could see that. You know, it's a history book. Again, it's pretty, it reads dry in relation to say a Game of Thrones or a Storm of Swords, which are intensely character based. And this is more like this happens and this person goes here and they do this and then this happens over here.

That said, I think that Rhaenys was my favorite character. I love all these characters so much and I think they're so meaty. But the way Rhaenys developed over the last three episodes of the season, you could see her just very, very wisely positioning herself in a certain way, taking in everything that was happening around her and reacting in ways that were so unique to her and so infused with her own personal experience of a person who,

was nearly the ruler but was put aside because of her sex and how that wisdom has informed every decision she makes, especially down the stretch there. And she acts in ways where she's not giving the easy win to either side. She has her own agenda. While she's casting her lot at the end with Rhaenyra and Team Black, she's also doing the things that

that she needs to have done. And I just found her so complex and fun to think about. What about you? Yeah, same. I mean, we talked about it a little bit with Ryan, too. I just thought the way her relationship, not only with Corlys, which was really interesting, like, I loved how that was portrayed, but also the way she interacts with Rhaenyra and Alicent is really fascinating. I think especially in episode nine,

That conversation with her and Allison was phenomenal and really interesting. We do not rule, but we may guide the men that do. You are wiser than I believed you to be, and yet you toil still in service to men. You know, busting out with the... I mean, it was just a really badass... It's as badass as it gets, yeah. It's as badass as it gets. And yeah, I think, too, just the symbolism of her as a character who...

you know, in so many ways was so close to the outcome that Rhaenyra is fighting for and then can bring so much wisdom to it and yet has her own stakes. I just thought she was super compelling and Eve Best, oh my God. I mean, just what a phenomenal actress too. Yeah. Absolutely crushed it. I would say as a runner-up, probably Larys. I was going to say Larys too. Yeah.

I just think he's so diabolical in a fun way. He's so skeezy. Yes. So skeezy and ominous and brilliant in the way he is able to leverage these small vulnerabilities, kind of, you know, emotional frailties, grievances to get the thing that he wants. And he always does it in a way that feels like

Like it was the other person's idea. Yeah. Yeah. And you see it on Allison's face. You can tell, um,

through every second of every conversation with Laris, that this is a bad idea. We shouldn't be doing this. None of this is quote-unquote good. I don't want to be here. But also it's very, very useful, and so let's continue doing it. Fascinating guy. Yeah, well, he's just such a wild card, you know? And we get that a little bit with Damon, too, but Laris, I think he's so much more behind the scenes, which is super compelling. You know, that reminds me of something that a friend of mine mentioned earlier

which was her frustration with House of the Dragon, which I thought was a really interesting one, which was that she was like, Game of Thrones was more whimsical. Which is like, whimsy? Is that the word you mean to use for that? Well, I need an example. Well, she talked about, like, there was more comedy, actually, in Game of Thrones between Bronn and even the Hound and then Tyrion. Like, it was actually a little more lighthearted, which was so weird to think about.

Because, again, whimsy is not a word I would use to describe Game of Thrones. And I think Damon fulfills that a little bit in this show, but we don't quite have the same comedic turns that we did in Game of Thrones, which is a really interesting point, I think. Yeah, I think that that's true. You know, Tyrion cracked wise a lot. He made a lot of jokes. Oh, my God. Yeah, he talked a lot of shit.

And he gave no fucks, you know? Gave zero fucks. Laris is not the jokester. I agree with you that Damon gives us a little of that. Right. One of the memes going around is like David's face at the family dinner when I forget who it was that's speaking. It might be Queen Alicent who's like, and then finally, you know, cheers to the memory of surveillment. May the gods give him rest.

And, you know, Damon had just hours earlier chopped the man's head off and he makes a face that is just indescribable. It's both like eyes bulging and also rolling. And it's very funny. Oh, my God. That's perfect. Yeah. I mean, you know, I wouldn't mind a little more of that, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah.

I agree, though. It is more subtle. The other moment that continues to make me laugh is when Viserys is about to announce who he's going to marry. And of course, he's had meetings with Laena, the 13-year-old Laena Velaryon, daughter of Corlys and Rhaenys, and has been secretly meeting with Alyson Hightower for X amount of months, if not years. And Corlys, like...

leans forward and rubs his hands together as if... As if, like... As if, here we go, folks. Get ready. And it is... It is hilarious. Yeah, that is a fun one. But, I mean, that is definitely more subtle. That's... You have to be looking for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. Do you have a runner-up favorite character? I was gonna say Laris. I was. I mean, I think...

I don't know. Damon's an interesting one. We talked, you know, I love Matt Smith. I think he's doing a great job with that role. He's also a very unpredictable character, which I think can be really fun. The multiple murders and strangulation are for sure not ideal. No. But I mean, Laris has a couple, you know, he's not quite as what that's like accessory to murder or something, what Laris was up to. Yeah, like it would have to be a Rico case. Yeah.

Yeah. Westerosi criminal justice. It'd have to be an organized crime statute kind of case, whereas with Damon, you could just charge him flat out. Yeah, Damon for sure has charges against him. So, you know, it's a little more tricky to vote for him in that sense. But I don't know. I mean, another thing we talked about, which I do think is really interesting, is the fact that, I mean...

strangulation aside, which is a big thing to set aside, is that it does seem like he's actually been a pretty good partner to Rhaenyra. I agree with you. And I think that, be fascinated to get your take on this, that's what he wants in my reading of it. He just wants to be like the Robin to someone's Batman. He wanted that with Viserys. You know, just wanted to hang around and be the buddy. Yeah. And I think he's happy to do that with Rhaenyra. He wants to be

The supporting person who's just always involved in there. And, you know, I don't know if this guy has like terminal loneliness or what it is. Terminal douchiness. Yes. Something like that. He doesn't want to be the main person. He wants to be the sidekick. I think you're totally right. And I think it.

Makes sense and is a really good character trait in a King Consort probably, right? Because it means that... Absolutely. He's not angling for his own weird bullshit. He really does want to uphold the fact that Rhaenyra is heir and that she should have it. I mean, I'm not saying that he doesn't have his own ankles, but...

But it does really feel to me like he's not trying to, like, get out in front of anything. He genuinely wants to help. Even in that moment, you know, when Rhaenyra is recovering from her miscarriage and Daemon is kind of, like, in the driver's seat, at least in terms of, you know, the military affairs, it's still, like, obviously I understand Rhaenyra's sensitivities on this. She'd given a direct order. But at the same time, like, it never felt to me like

Oh, Damon wants to seize it. Again, Damon just wants to be involved. He's hotheaded. He's hotheaded for sure. He's pissed. But yeah, I don't think he wants it for himself. He doesn't want it for himself. I've never. That's one thing that I thought they really got right is you never felt as if Damon was trying. He was never trying to seize power, even when he was the heir. It was more about that overt relationship with his brother and less about like actually doing it. He showed no interest in ever doing it.

Right. It's interesting to think about him comparing him to Aegon because, I mean, Aegon also very clearly said he didn't want it. Yeah. And is also, you know, not the best dude. Actively bad. Actively rapey. Actively has done that and is bad. Yeah. Does not want the job. Yeah. All of which I would say are significant flags that this is not going to be a good king. Yeah. Yeah.

It's interesting to me, too, the hypocrisy there, considering, to your point, like, Damon was completely written off because he was a wild card in a way that

similarly, Aegon definitely is. And Rhaenyra was, you know, written off not because of her sex, but also because of this kind of like unfitness to lead that's definitely related to that kind of misogyny. And yet with Aegon, nobody even questions it. I think there is something seductive about potentially a person like Aegon who is

people around him feel like they can control. Well, I think too, so much of it comes down to, again, the system and the fact that he is the male heir and you just don't question that.

Yeah. I wanted to raise the issue of the Kingsguard with you. So the Kingsguard, an elite force, right? The best fighters in the realm selected, handpicked because of their prowess. We saw some of that when Rhaenyra quite regrettably selected Kristen Cole for the White Cloak. They were founded after an assassination attempt on Aegon the Conqueror and Visenya Targaryen, his sister, was like, you need a group of the best fighters to be your bodyguards.

This order is an absolute shambolic mess. The amount of mistakes and incompetency in this order of elite fighters is truly staggering. And you could stretch it out all the way to Game of Thrones when, you know, what do we know about Jaime Lannister? One, he was one of the best fighters to ever be in the Kingsguard and he killed the king. Yeah, right. Like this organization is actively not active.

They missed three princes having a fight because they got away from it. And then an eye gets cut out. They're nowhere to be found. Alicent grabs a knife out of the king's belt and manages to get all the way to Rhaenyra. Nobody knows what to do. People are sneaking around. Daemon is sneaking into the castle. They have no idea where he is. What is the

Kingsguard doing at any point? They're bad at their jobs. It's a great question. Not only are they bad at their jobs, but there's no one is enforcing the rule. You know, like we hear about Kingsguard. It's like there's all these rules. You're not supposed to have sex with anybody, you know, blah, blah, blah. But it's like you can beat somebody to death at a wedding and that's totally chill. Like it just seemed like they're overlooking a lot of character flaws in these situations, you know?

I agree. Not to mention the no sex thing. I mean, I get it. Good.

Do you get it? It's so arcane. I don't. I guess I kind of get it in the sense that it feels like very surface level holy. You know, it's a way to say, oh, I've made a solemn vow. You know what I mean? Sure. But it's also just like, what's the... Yeah. At the same time, it feels like it really incentivizes people to lie all the time. I was going to say, like, when has a chastity oath ever helped somebody behave better? It seems like it just makes everything a lot worse. Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. I just think that this organization desperately needs to be reformed because they're never there when it's necessary. And I think, you know, the answer is I get it. Seven. There's seven of them because of the faith of the seven. Sure. Symbolically, that's important, especially because the Targaryens are outsiders and have so many customs that go against the faith of seven. So you want to have this kind of like patina of.

of acceptance of this very popular dominant religion. Yeah. At the same time, like seven is, I think we've seen it. Seven is not enough to cover this family that is running all over the place. Oh, for sure. There's a million of them. Yeah, no. There's two Agons. Like, we need more knights. They need code names. Yes. And more knights. And a consent decree. That's absolutely. Oh my God. That is a good point. Should we talk about Helena? I think this is one of the more fascinating. Ooh.

Ooh, that's a good one. I would like to talk about Helena, yeah. Fascinating. Yeah, what were your thoughts on Helena? I mean, Helena, I think we have a lot yet to see, is my guess, in terms of her ability to prophesize. We talked about it in the episode, but the speech she gave at that family dinner about how, like, it's fine, he usually doesn't want to pay attention to you until he's drunk was extremely upsetting. Yeah. But yeah, she still has a prophecy that's outstanding. Hand turns loose.

Yeah, that one, I did wonder if hand turns to loom is not a reference to the hand of the king, aka Otto, making this stuff happen behind the scenes, you know, turning dragons of flesh into these two dragons, one green, one black, and then...

I thought it might have been that as a kind of like broader commentary on what's happening. The machinations. Yeah, the kind of machinations that are going on right now. Yeah, that's an interesting one. I wonder also, will at any point anybody be like, hey, what's she saying? I know the fact that no one's taking her seriously, it tracks, but it's also super frustrating. And it's interesting, too, to think about, I mean...

Arguably, so Team Green has the biggest dragon and someone who can tell the future. Pretty good. Yeah. Seem like they would be clutch, you know. But yeah, if nobody's taking her seriously, then it doesn't really matter, I suppose. Yeah, it does very, very sadly track. I mean, one of the themes that this show and Game of Thrones before it really successfully kind of delves into is people who don't

conform to kind of the popular conception of what a masculine role or a feminine role is, of what a royal person is. And certainly Helena does not fall within that. She is strange in their eyes, kind of nerdy. I think we would describe her as on the spectrum today if she was a person in the real world, and they just don't know how to take her. And so

I think the thing that they do, which is the same thing that gives Laris his kind of like superpowers, they just ignore. True. They ignore. Yeah, I will say, I guess I'm really curious. We don't know a lot about any of the girls really in that generation. We've, you know, we've gotten some little sprinklings, but I think we've definitely seen more of, especially Amon and Aegon and Jace and Luke. I think it'll be really interesting to get to know

Lena's two daughters, Lena and Damon's two daughters better too. Yeah. I thought it was really meaningful the way Rhaenyra immediately had Baila and Rhaena at the table with her core advisors in the Black Council. Yeah. And of course, it makes sense. They're going to be on the front lines whether they want to be or not, whether they're children or not. It was very symbolic. You know, all these men around the table and she says, hey, come on, you're involved in this. You're going to need to know this. I thought that was really powerful. And Rhaena,

I'm excited to know more about them, to learn more about them, to find out what kind of people they are. I will say that one of the things that always makes me worry in a House of the Dragon, Game of Thrones, Westeros show is any people that have a good relationship and seem to be getting on well. Yeah. It really feels like Baelin, Rhaena, and Jace, and Luke, may he rest in peace. I know.

No, that is like nice pairings. Everyone seemed pretty happy there. They seemed very happy. So that makes me worry. Just a heavy side. The abuse we put up with watching this show, man. I know. Is Laenor really the only happy ending? I guess if you could call it happy, his parents believe he's dead. Happy seems like such an elusive term. It's a little loaded. It's a lot like whimsy, you know? Yeah.

I'm not sure it's quite appropriate in this context. Yeah. Happy is doing a lot of weightlifting in that sentence, but yeah. Yes, but I don't know. I mean, I do. I love that that is a twist they added, and I think that's really cool. I think it seems like it would be very exciting as a book reader, but also I think just for the sake of...

and watching stuff that takes place in a real bummer of a time period and to get even the littlest inklings that life could be okay with people who don't look like blonde white people is good, you know? I agree. I agree.

So, Jason, can we zoom out a little bit and actually talk about some of the production that goes behind the show? Because that also is super interesting. Yeah, let's do that. There's a docuseries called The House That Dragons Built. It's really interesting. There's one for every episode of the show, and it's a docuseries you can get on HBO Max. There's some on YouTube, too. They're just really cool. They are very fun. They are very informative.

And as the co-host of the official Game of Thrones House of the Dragon podcast, I felt that it was my duty to watch them. It's an official endorsement. You're hearing it here. Yes. I think what's really fun for me about watching these is, you know, I mean, you and I have spent a very long time over the past many weeks now kind of going the ins and outs of the story and the character developments. Yeah.

But to spend time just unpacking, like, how the hell did they make that boat? Or how many screens did they need to make this? I just think is so much fun to watch. Absolutely. It's so seamless. Obviously, there are, you know, moments of, like, jaw-dropping action and spectacular landscapes and vistas. But it is really quite fascinating how much goes into creating all of that stuff that, as a viewer...

you are just meant to immediately kind of like not think about. It's just going to be the background immersion to let you get into the story and really feel like you're there and you understand where this world is taking place. And at the same time, that is something clearly what you watch these BTSs, these behind the scenes vignettes, and you really understand like how much went into these details that you're not even meant to understand.

It's just, you're meant to feel them. It's really cool. So yeah, the vignettes are on YouTube. You can see the full versions on HBO Max. And the series is called The House That Dragons Built. And it's essentially like a documentary about the making of Game of Thrones. And yeah, I think to your point, like this world is just so...

meticulously creative. There's so much creative problem solving that goes into every single one of these episodes. And to even to get a sense of like who all of these amazing ass nerds are who are helping make the sculptures in the fancy room where Corliss hangs out is just so cool. That is one that I was chocked

just enthralled by. Right. Because again, it's like, I wanted to like luxuriate in every single one of these props. Yes. One of the pieces there is a map of Corliss' travels throughout the Eastern seas. And it's just like, man, can we talk about this? Like, can Corliss, can Steve get into character and then just like tell us about this journey? Because it, you just want to spend time with each and every piece that's there. Yeah.

Yeah. So there are episodes about all sorts of different things that we see in the series. There's one about the building of the tourney grounds. That's the first episode, which was super cool. There's this really fun moment in that one where they just talk about like how they wanted to make it seem really elaborate because it was for Targaryens and that was really important. And this British dude says dynasty in a way that just made me very happy. It was very Tyrion Lannister. Wasn't it? Yeah.

I talked to the guys about the tournament very early on because I wanted to bring something stronger and more powerful to support the Targaryen dynasty. But then the second one is all about this volume set situation, which I knew, I did not know that this existed and seems like really cool tech. That is really cool. There are other shows that use this and it feels like

If I was an actor, obviously playing to a green screen and just kind of imagining the things going on around you is just very difficult. And it's amazing that these talented actors can do that. Yeah. But the ability to have like actual feedback and understand where you're supposed to be and what you're seeing because this volume is these various –

super super high def screens that project the background around you that is just really really cool and seems like it just would be immensely useful it seems like a game changer and it's funny you mentioned that about the green screen because i don't know if you remember but fabian frankel who plays kristen cole even says the same exact thing it's pretty surreal it's a lot easier because you're not imagining everything is there in front of you not to mention it's

You've got that potential for immediate kind of feedback rather than, you know, I would imagine if you're just doing green screen stuff now, you've got to render and you've got to get that back. And how does the performance track with what's happening? And now you could just be like, well, that's not kind of working. Let's try it again. Yeah. Instead of like, all right, well, we'll try again tomorrow. See you on Wednesday or whatever. It really gives you a high level of appreciation for how...

for all the like not front facing people that make this come to life. Because honestly, like for a show like this, high concept dragons exist, fantasy world, right? Oh my God. It can get pretty cheap very easily. And if that happens, if like, if it doesn't look right, if things aren't matching up with expectations, all of a sudden you've got like a Monty Python sketch, you know, and for that not to be the case, it's,

is a testament to like how much work has gone into the background. Yeah, I think, you know,

as you're saying, too, it's one of those things where when it's done really well, you almost don't notice it. That's the thing. But then the tragedy of that, when so many people are putting so much work into it, I think that's kind of the joy of watching some of this behind-the-scenes stuff is that, you know, you're getting a celebration of, like, the makeup artists and all these set designers and people who, you know, location scouts. Like, so much is going into this. There's a really, really charming...

of the episode five behind the scenes with Steve Toussaint. Oh, yeah. He plays Lord Corliss. And he's talking about seeing all this stuff for the first time and being like, yeah, I did that. Like, and you could see the pride. Like, he is glowing with pride for his character's accomplishments. And it is just a wonderfully charming thing.

All these wonderful objects are an incredible tribute to the sea snake's life. It is a vanity because of course it's like, yeah, I did that and I did that and I did that. And what did you do? Oh, you were born into royalty. Well, I made my stuff. You brought this up too. There's a moment later in that.

Behind the scenes where Eve Best, who plays Rainice, is like... I just want a camera to go through every single thing that is in that set. The detail is unbelievable. It's so beautiful. I mean, it is...

It's truly incredible. And not only is it does it look like, you know, the design is wonderful, but it looks old in a way that I think is hard to accomplish. You know, these are like art historians who are like now their job is to make stuff for the House of the Dragons. It's amazing. Yeah.

There's these various busts, statuary pieces. They're covered with coral that looks like they were dredged up from some sunken city. Some Eritrean something, something. Yeah, it's amazing. Oh my gosh, it is so, so cool. And you just like, man.

Again, I want to just spend time like talking about and looking at this stuff. Mm hmm. Totally. Well, and then you hear like their 3D printing stuff. They're using styrofoam in weird ways, like just to think about how many different elements are all coming together. It's just like it's truly mind blowing. Along those same lines, the vignette that talks to Craig Naramore and Claire Nia Richards, who are the prop

and set decorator, respectively, where they're discussing King Viserys' model of old Valyria. Yes. That is... I mean, there are details in that that you're just never going to see. You're never... The camera's never going to go there. You're never going to look at this building that's midway through the city. And yet, it is giving...

this character and this context, like a weight of history that you can really feel. Not to mention in the books, there's no real layout for Valeria. We don't like, this is, this has been created for this. This is an invention of this show, which is so, so cool. Yeah.

The Valery model, that was interesting because we've done architectural models in the past, never at this scale. I mean, this model is huge. Eight meters long. That's a massive model to make. Yeah, back in the first episode of these, there's a guy, I forget his name, I wish I could have remembered it, but his title is House of the Dragon Greensman.

And, like, just the fact that this show, like, has a guy who's just, like, in charge of the foliage, I just think is really delightful. I also will say, like, just the production style of these and, like, the cuts, there's a real whimsy to them, which is really fun also knowing the gravity of the show. You know, like, they're almost kind of a palate cleanser, don't you think? Yeah.

I'm glad that you brought that up because, yes, they always catch these clips like of characters. We know, you know, it's like, you know, in the scene in the show, they've just come from like watching someone get beheaded. Right. But then they're like skipping out of the set with like holding up like a, you know, a dainty like umbrella. And they're just like having a great time and smiling. And you're like, oh, OK. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. This is a show and everybody's having a great time making it. That's another thing that I've really liked.

watching about this show is the stuff that pops from these on social media later. Mm-hmm.

It's always stuff like, oh, look at young Eamon Targaryen like dancing, like all these kind of fun little bits. Yeah. They make you feel like, oh, yeah, that's right. It's not just like death and tragedy all the time. Yeah. Well, these are real people and they're like having a pretty good time doing really good work, which is really exciting. It's cool to see that, you know? Yeah. I hope people will check this out. Like if you can't get enough and also like just in terms of

Understanding that there is a world, a creative world that can be accessed, that is like an actual life and career that can be pursued in real life. Yes. You know, from watching this, you can see an entire like breadth of different career paths that are out there for people who are creatively inclined. It's really cool. I think that's what I find really exciting about these two is that

Yeah, there's a level of creative problem solving to all of these things. And all of these people are at the top of their very specific fields. And the idea, I just picked picture like being the House of the Dragon Greensman and not having gotten that job yet and just really loving plants or whatever. And someone calls you and is like, hey, do you want to do this for Game of Thrones? And what a crazy, amazing trip that must be to get to do these super specific projects

very highly creative jobs for something as detail-oriented and well-funded as a show like House of the Dragon. Well, like, you know, as a person who goes to comic book conventions, like, as a hobby and is really into nerd stuff, the culture of cosplay has really taken off over the last several years.

And, you know, there are people in this world that do that for a living. They create costumes, they create props, etc. How cool is that to be like, I create costumes year round. It's nerd heaven. I make swords for House of the Dragon. Like what? Like someone has that job. It's amazing. It's really awesome. And if anyone wants to explore, you know, deeper, really get into...

The amazing details that make this show so immersive, like the family tree, like various map locations, official prop imagery, etc. You can go to Houseofthedragonguide.com. There is just a lot of really cool detail there about different props, different locations, and how they came to be and what role they play within the show. So that's Houseofthedragonguide.com.

How do we convince someone to let us just be a person like with a murder hood in the background of a scene?

You know, that's funny. I thought you were going to ask, how can we go to Dragonstone in Portugal? Also that. I would like to do, Jason. Like, the cloak is cool or whatever, but, like, I want to go to Portugal. I ask because I figure if, you know, if you're in the background of a scene with a murder cloak, that also means you have to be on set. Okay, okay, okay. Therefore, in Portugal, wandering around, looking at the various prop things, etc.,

It could be BYO cloak. I would happily get myself a cloak for this situation if that's useful. I've got a robe. I've got a plush robe. You do have a robe.

Jason, has the thing been happening to you over the course of this season where friends just like DM you TikTok videos and stuff relating to House of the Dragon? Oh, yeah. That has been happening for years, actually. Going back to Game of Thrones days. Yes, that happens all the time. My mom as well. My mom will just like randomly be like my mom will text me.

This is a real text that she sent me a week ago. The queen is a bitch. That's it. No context, nothing. But the fact that it came through on Sunday let me know that it was about House of the Dragon. I can't believe we haven't talked about the fact that both of our moms watch House of the Dragon and listen to it. I guess it makes sense. They're our moms. They kind of have to, right? Well, I'm delighted that she does.

My mom thinks you're great. She finds you delightful. Oh, that's nice to hear. She's like, you and Jason are just so much fun to listen to. Oh, that's so sweet. It's only been very, very recently that my mom's paid attention to any kind of like career job thing that I do. So that has been, that's been a unique, you know, life evolution to just get weird texts from my mom about television.

Such an amazing journey, this entire situation. Jason, you and I are going to be back in two weeks. And that is all for today's episode. That is all for us this episode. And we want to hear from y'all.

Don't forget to leave a review and a rating on your podcast player of choice. We love that. And you can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You find me at Twitter at NETW3RK. Yes. And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson on both Twitter and Instagram. The

The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO Max in collaboration with iHeartRadio. The podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion and Greta Johnson. Our executive producer is Molly Socha. Our supervising producer is Nakia Swinton. Our lead sound engineer is Matt Stillo.

This episode was edited by Sierra Spreen. Our producer is Jason Concepcion in association with Crooked Media. Special thanks, as always, to Michael Gluck-Gluckstadt, Allison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, and Becky Rowe from the HBO Max podcast team. Ashley Morton, Dana Froome, Liz Keating, and Megan McLeod at HBO Marketing.