House Of The Dragon: Ep. 5 “We Light the Way”
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I took the liberty of preparing a fresh set of herbal poultices that might be more effective. That will not be necessary, your wife. The leechings have always brought his grace relief. Jason, if you had to choose between poultice and leeches... Yeah. Wouldn't you choose poultice?

There's a lot of recent evidence that particularly with reattaching severed limbs that leeches actually do a great job in like stabilizing the blood vessels and promoting healing. That said, if you only have two choices for your medicinal remedy, why not try both? Sure.

What would you do? I mean, let's start with coconut oil and just see what happens from there, you know? I gotta say, not a huge arsenal of medicinal cures from the so-called grand maester. You'd think you'd have more than two things. There are just so many good poultices out there, man. Okay. I just have so much faith in the poultice.

Welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Concepcion, host of the podcast X-Ray Vision from Crooked Media. And I am Greta Johnson, host of WBEZ's Nerd Out podcast. And this is a Game of Thrones podcast for everyone, whether you're an OG Thrones watcher or you just started your journey with the HBO original series, House of the Dragon. Holy shit, Jason, that was a hell of an episode.

What better way to celebrate the halfway mark of the season than a wedding? A wonderful Westeros wedding. They're always so festive and fun. Yes, you know, festive and fun or extremely bloody, like however it goes. So today we're also actually going to talk to Sarah Hess, who's an executive producer and writer on House of the Dragon. Very excited for that conversation. Before we dive into this ep though, should we do a speed recap? Let's do it.

We open in the Vale where Daemon has finally come to spend some time with his lady wife, Rhea Royce, before murdering her and making it look like a hunting accident. Despite the fact that he's ailing and his limbs are falling off, King Viserys makes the journey to Driftmark along with Princess Rhaenyra to seal the marriage pact between House Targaryen and House Velaryon. Rhaenyra and Laenor Velaryon go for a walk and come to an understanding about their secret love lives.

With Otto Hightower out of the picture after getting fired by the king, Queen Alicent, his daughter, is feeling vulnerable. Laris Strong finds her in the godswood and spills the tea on the actual tea, and Alicent realizes that her friend Rhaenyra has been lying to her all along. Alicent questions Ser Criston Cole, and she discovers that it was Ser Cole, not Daemon, who Rhaenyra has been messing around with.

The nuptial celebrations begin. Queen Alicent enters the hall wearing the war colors of House Hightower, and the night takes an even more serious turn when Kristen Cole beats Leonor's love, Ser Joffrey, to death. The wedding is hastily convened. King Viserys collapses in the middle of the ceremony, just feet away from the pool of Ser Joffrey's blood, while in the godswood, Queen Alicent reaches out to Kristen Cole, and an alliance is formed. Okay, so what did we think of this episode, Greta?

Oh, my God. I mean, if I had to sum it down to four words, I would say chaos is a ladder and I am extremely here for it. That was a hell of an episode. Like, yeah, I can't wait to dive into this one. Oh, it's messy. I love it when it gets messy. Everybody is just being an absolute mess right now. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody. Let's talk about it. OK, well, we should probably start with the pros.

perhaps most short-lived character that we have met so far in the series. R.I.P. Which is, oh my God, she seemed great. Can I just say, Rhea Royce? Listen, Damon Targaryen did her an immense disservice in multiple ways. Not just, and of course, like ending with him flat out murdering her. Right. But like the insults against her and her land were,

unwarranted. Yeah. And then to end it with like murdering her in a fashion that would seem accidental. Not cool, Damon. Really not cool. Yeah. Well, and like obviously extremely not accidental also. Right. I mean, obviously that's like what he wants everyone to think. But it seemed pretty evident that like he made that happen. Oh, clearly. Like, listen, whatever his straight line reason for killing his wife is, what he wants is to have a

more options. Freedom of movement. Oh, for sure. We've seen how important marriages are in this world politically. In his mind, he's thinking, well, I need to be able to make a match that is more politically amenable to my goals. And what I need to do in that case is kill my wife. I kind of want to put in a petition for a Rhea Roy spinoff show, personally. I mean, we know how she dies, which is kind of a bummer, but she just seemed like a real bad bitch, you know? Like, she would have been fun to hang out with, or at least fun to watch being a bitch to other people. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And by the way, House Royce, a really cool family history. You know, we've heard a lot of various houses. Oh, they were once kings, you know, before the coming of the conqueror. The Royces were kings in the Vale before the Arryns. They were the house that ruled the Vale. They were of First Men descent. Then the Andal invasion came and House Royce was actually like the focus of First Men resistance against the Andals. And the Andals kind of got their act together and stopped the

trying to fight the Royces and their supporters like one at a time. They banded together under the House Arryn, and eventually House Royce had to capitulate. But you see the little bronze accents on Rhea's armor and on Ser Geralt's armor? That is a callback to back when they were kings. They were called the Bronze Kings of the Vale. They had this bronze crown with runes on it. Bronze Yon Royce, who later would be an important supporter to Sansa Stark in Game of Thrones,

In the books, he wears an ancient set of bronze armor with all these runes on it. So it's just an ignominious and terrible end for a cool person from a cool family. And again, kind of shows you how dangerous Damon is, not just the murder. Oh my God, yes. But the fact that obviously he flew there, right? And the fact that he can fly there is...

and still be pretty confident that he's going to get away with this murder tells you how good he is at moving around this entire landscape hidden. In the books, this is actually a confirmation that this is murder. In the books, it's just said that Rhea died whilst talking, you know, while out on a hunt. So the official story that got passed down to history was that this was an accident. So he got away with it. Wow. Okay.

Oh, the fact that he doesn't say a single word either. Like he's so quiet for so it's so creepy. Very, very creepy. And she clearly suspected. Oh, totally. In the way that she immediately turns around to see like, oh, is there someone behind me? Like she knows what he's about. And also the fact that word got back to her about the stuff that he said in the small council. Like it just shows you how infamous those comments would have been. Certainly in the veil where that's a direct insult against everybody who lives there. The stuff he said about people.

and the women inhabitants of the Vale very, very insulting. Yeah, for sure. So this is maybe extremely too detail-oriented, but I mean, here we are in the official Game of Thrones podcast, so I'm going to go for it. Yeah. When Daemon later says he's going to try to claim her inheritance... Yeah. I...

am predicting that maybe there's going to be an issue with that because they didn't actually consummate. And that's probably fairly well known, don't you think? It would have been well known. Certainly, Rhea Royce was not shy in talking about her, the issues with her marriage. That's my thought. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there's going to be, listen, Lady Jane of the Vale is going to be very, very loathe to give up one of the most important castles and lands in

to a guy who is a piece of shit and never spent any time there. Like, there's going to be significant blowback if she tries to do that, and she has the out of the marriage was never consummated. So, yeah, that's going to be a significant issue, and I'd like to see Damon try it, and I'm sure he will. Yeah, it seems like he has no judgment whatsoever at this point, so he's for sure going to try. Well, also in this episode, we see Damon...

quite actively flirting with Liana Valerian. Has anybody ever told you you're nearly as pretty as your brother? Why are you flattering me, my prince? I was sorry to hear about your lady wife. Don't be, I wasn't.

And then later, Princess Rhaenyra on the dance floor. Like almost making out with Rhaenyra on the dance floor. A bold move. Yeah. Now, to be fair to him, we've seen him do this with almost any woman that comes into his orbit. I mean, he flirts with Alicent like at the birthday tournament in episode one. That's true. It's almost as if if he can't fuck them, he just wants to kill them. Yeah, I think...

Killing Rhea freed him up. Oh, totally. To do stuff like this and to make a political match, but also...

We're probably asking ourselves, okay, what's Damon's angle? What power move is he making? What's the strategy here? Yeah. The strategy is Damon is the Joker. Right. He's going to do whatever he wants. Damon doesn't have a quote unquote plan other than this would be hilarious to do this. I think this would cause a lot of trouble. Right. Chaos. Damon just wants to be in the mix. And I think all of the things he is doing in this episode are an attempt to

to be in the mix and to just get it. He loves attention coming in late in the middle of the King's speech, like talking to the bride in the middle of the dance in a way that seems like kind of romantic, like flirting with Leanna Valerian. Like he is just out here trying to get noticed. There is another read, and I'm not sure I agree with it, but I'm just going to put it out there because we talked about it a little bit last week with

Like, there is the possibility that he actually does have feelings for Rhaenyra. I mean, they have established some level of, you know, dare I call it friendship. He tried to get Viserys to agree to the idea of him taking on multiple wives. Viserys was not having it. So there is a possibility that he killed his wife so that he could...

theoretically get with Rhaenyra. I mean, you could say he even showed up at the banquet to talk her out of it. And it gave her the Valyrian steel necklace in episode one. Right, right. I think that's certainly one of his plays. Like, I think that there is a real kind of feeling between Daemon and Rhaenyra. Targaryens are like this. Yeah.

They are just like this, you know, like if you're wondering if the Targaryen's brother and sister or niece and nephew. Yeah, or uncle and niece who are like making eyes at each other or into each other. They might be. That's the very possible. Yeah. And so I think that that is on the table. Well, and Rhaenyra doesn't seem super opposed to, you know, that conversation they have in Valyrian on the dance floor. I mean, she dares him to do it. And I'm not sure how much that's because she's buying into the chaos of it, too.

Yeah, I read that in two different ways. I read that in she's flirting hard right back at him. Right. Calling him like, let's go. Like, then do it. Yeah. Then do it. Yeah. And it's also just like on Dragon. Why was she so successful on Dragonstone? Right. Because she knows exactly how to cut to the quick and call Damon on his bullshit in a way that will get him to stand down. Yeah.

That's also what she's doing, being like, oh, you want to, this is your end game. Is this? Well, here's how you do it. Here's the three things that you need to do to do it. So do it right now. No? Okay. Yeah, it's interesting to wonder what would have happened if chaos hadn't broken out right after that. Yeah, and I think, you know, it's interesting to wonder if

end game is power. But I also, I think clearly no, right? Because as Rhaenyra would say, if he wanted it, he would have done something about it by now. Yeah. He would have killed the king. He would have made an alliance that would have allowed him to have support to be the next ruler. Like he would have done a million things. He's not doing any of that stuff. No,

No, I think you're right that he just wants chaos. He just wants to do whatever he wants and not think about the repercussions at all. That's exactly it. It struck me in this episode that everyone is...

putting up a front. Yeah. Like, if there's a theme to this episode, it's illusions, shams, whether it's sham marriages. Lies. Lies, people lying. Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the most obvious ones that it's easy to overlook, and also because it's been happening since the beginning of the show, is Viserys pretending that he's fine. Oh, my God. It's so clear he's not okay. He looks terrible. Yeah. Yes, he took a pretty rigorous sea journey under rough conditions, but Viserys

is wincing every time he touches something with his injured hand, looks...

and terrible. And of course, this is exactly what Otto has been trying to hide from everyone. And now it's essentially, you know, not something that you can hide anymore. And I think you can explain a lot of the behaviors of people around the throne and around power by the fact that they can see Viserys' weaknesses now. Yeah. And everybody is saying, oh, well, I have to make my position felt right now because Viserys

it's gonna come a time when I'm gonna have to fight for the ground I stand on because Viserys is not long for this. Like, you know, Otto telling Alicent that it's not exactly a secret considering the king is falling over in the courtyard of the Red Keep. Yeah, I definitely want to talk more about that scene, but I also want to point out how interesting it was when Viserys went to visit House Velaryon that Corlys offered him a chair how many times and he refused to sit his royal butt down even though obviously he could have just used a minute.

of rest. Might I have a chair brought in for you? I do not require a chair. I'm not weak. I'm not weak. I can stand up here. Yeah, it's so brutal. I think a part of that was a response to the obvious insults that Corlys had presented to him. There were a lot of power dynamics at play in that scene, for sure. Where is Lord Corlys? He should be here to receive the king.

This was a power move from Corlys. First of all, not greeting the king. What? Yeah. And then when they do finally meet Corlys, it's in the Hall of Nine amongst all his trophies. He's sitting on, the chair he's sitting on is the Driftwood Throne. Family legend has it that the Merlin King, which is like basically the King of the Mermaids, like probably a legendary figure, gifted that to House Valerian back, back, back, back.

back, back, back, back in the day. So here he is sitting on a throne that he, you know, very slowly rises from to welcome his king. It's just an incredible power move from Corlys in the face of the weakness of his king. Yep. Okay, so Otto and Alicent, this was a really significant conversation, I thought, in an episode of a lot of really interesting conversation. I do not wish to see you go. Such is the king's decision. A decision I most bitterly regret.

And yet you made it possible. Either you prepare Aegon to rule, or you cleave to Rhaenyra and pray for her mercy.

What did you think of this? I thought it was really interesting. I thought it was very manipulative on Otto's part. Obviously, that's not surprising given how Otto tends to behave. But I don't know. I mean, I was kind of curious to ask you about like the idea that Rainier is going to kill those kids seems ridiculous to me. You know, it seems like it's just like planting seeds of doubt in an extremely manipulative way. And then that like weird dad hug at the end. It was just like, dude, like...

Get out of here. It's interesting because Otto, my read is Otto is being both sincere. He is truly alarmed at what is coming. Sure. Maybe it's a little over the top to say Rhaenyra would do it, but it's not over the top to say voices around Rhaenyra would say, they're a threat to you and you got to deal with this because look at what's happening to Alison right now. That's exactly what's happening. Alison is not thinking when Rhaenyra and Laenor have kids, I'm going to kill them. But I guarantee you, Otto is going to tell her to do that.

And so Otto is not necessarily being alarmist. But what struck me was, you know, he says the realm would not accept her. You need to awake to this reality. You need to see that. And it's not necessarily false that the realm certainly has its misgivings about her. But it's interesting to me.

And it's like a mirror of like the times we live in. It's interesting to me what Otto wants to fight about. Otto is perfectly happy to have a war to put Aegon, his grandson on the throne. But when it comes to following the orders of his king and the wishes of his king and the thing that he swore to uphold was the decision to raise Rhaenyra to the throne. Right. He is not willing to like go out there and argue about,

to make it so people would accept her on the throne. That's a really good point. Yeah. It's like, why are you not willing to go out there and say, okay, here's a decision which maybe we don't agree with, but here's why we should agree to it. Here's why it's actually a good idea that we should accept Rhaenyra. No, he is saying the realm will not accept her while working day and night, night and day to make sure that the realm does not accept her. So he's being sincere, but also having it both ways here.

Yeah, it's extremely convenient that, I mean, he's advocating for himself and his own family. And I find it very convenient that when he tells Allison that she needs to stand up for herself, that's also in his best interest, too, you know? And to that end, he just seems so incredibly untrustworthy to me. Yeah, I think part of this is this system of government kind of incentivizes this

paranoid behavior. You know, everybody holds what they there's no private property in this world. Everybody holds everything they have because the king allows them to hold it. You know, the king confirms everyone in their land and titles and says, yes, you are a knight of Old Town. And I allow House Hightower to remain at Old Town because I allow it. So whenever there's a switch over in power, there's this tremendous anxiety of,

Are the next people that come in, is Raniere going to allow us to remain in this position? Like that is a legitimate concern. So you get that. Yeah. But yeah, Otto is very, very clearly advocating and agitating for the security of his house. And that means, you know, it's interesting that Allison doesn't flip it. You know, the threat is there. Raniere is going to kill your children. What are you going to have to do?

in order to secure your place for Aegon and for our family. Like, that's implicit but not stated. Especially with a dead husband? Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of Alicent's behavior later on in this episode, you know, in the Godswood with Larys, the conversation with Kristen at the end of the episode, is because her protector, her greatest supporter, Otto, is out.

All of a sudden, Rhaenyra is known to have connections that nobody knew about to the Kingsguard. These are the people that are supposed to protect her. Yeah, she's on her own. She's feeling really vulnerable. Yeah, well, and I admire her. Like, she's stepping up in this episode. I think it's devastating to see how few people she has. And she even talks about that with Larys. I'm the queen. I have no shortage of allies. Naturally. Princess Rhaenyra, for example.

It's just that on the very same night your father was dismissed, the Grand Maester delivered a tea to the Princess's chamber. Rhaenyra sailed with the King to Driftblock yesterday at daybreak. Oh, what good news. I must have been in error. Oh, what relief.

And remember we flagged this early, back during the celebratory hunt for Aegon's second name day, that Larys always seemed to position himself to hear sensitive conversations. And here he is again, you know, making moves. We haven't seen a whole lot of him yet. But yeah, he does seem extremely schemey. And we learn in that conversation, if you hadn't picked up on it before in the Godswood, that Larys' dad is who took over as the Hand of the King. That's right. A Lionel Strong of House Strong.

And whose brother also is Harwin Breakbones, who we heard mention of in a previous episode when Lionel had given some advice to the king on the hunt and King of the Seraphs was like, oh, let me guess, you want to marry Rhaenyra to Breakbones? Oh, right, right.

you know, basically the strongest living human being in Westeros right now. Well, I was wondering with that last name like that. Yeah. Yeah. So Laris gave me serious Littlefinger vibes. That's like, you know, like I can see him with like the Mr. Burns scheme fingers. You know what I mean? Oh, man. It's something about being an outsider. Mm.

in this world, whether it's Littlefinger, Tyrion, Larys now, seems to give a certain character with a certain intellect a perspective on how people move, how they act, that allows them to push buttons in ways that are super effective and very, very dangerous. And I think what that conversation in the Godswood tells us is that's going to be Larys' game. He's going to act like, oh...

It's look at me. I'm weak and I'm limping around. But actually, I'm extremely dangerous because you're not watching out for me. You know, what conversation also struck me is Corlys and Rhaenys when Viserys is there and he finally goes to rest so that Rhaenys and Corlys have a moment.

Corlys is like, this is great. You know, Leonor is going to be an inch away from the throne now. Our kids are going to be the rulers of the realm. And yes, they're not going to be named Valerian, but still everybody will know. And this is awesome. This finally writes that age old injustice when you were denied the crown. And it's very clear that Rhaenys, because of her lived experience and her realistic perspective on how this is going to play out, is like, why are you excited? Yeah.

Well, it was so interesting, too, because the other piece, you're right about the lived experience, but it's also like, you know, the way Corliss is like, are they hitting it off? And she's like, bro, your kid is gay. You know this. Yes, come on. No, he'll grow out of it. Yeah, like her approach, it was interesting. I mean, we haven't seen a lot of just the two of those characters interacting yet. Yeah. And so, you know, getting a better sense of their marriage and what their relationship is like, the fact that she feels comfortable calling bullshit on him, I think is super interesting. But yeah, she just seemed so much more realistic about the situation. Yeah.

She's grown quite comely these last few years. You know his true nature. He's still young. He will outgrow it. We are placing our son in danger. The lords of the realm bent the knee to Rhaenyra and swore obeisance to her. That was before there was a true-born prince named Aegon Targaryen. Rhaenyra's succession will be challenged. Knives will come out for her, her husband, and for their heirs.

Well, you know, we forget that Corlys spent how many decades doing nine journeys around the world while his wife was raising the kids. Like this perspective on, Laenor will grow out of this. What are you talking about? Look at how cute Princess Rhaenyra is. It comes from a place and that place was, I was not a super involved dad. Yeah.

He didn't seem surprised when she reminded him either. He just seems to be in denial about it, you know? Oh, sure. Leonore's sexual orientation is not necessarily a secret. Preference for goose. In the realm, yeah. This was a thing that is whispered about and, you know, unfortunately joked about at the kind of like highest levels of Westerosi politics. But this is not...

It's not unknown, certainly, you know, not a surprise to anyone. Given that Leonor and his sexuality is, as you say, like a fairly well-known secret in the realm, then you probably weren't surprised to hear Rhaenyra propose essentially an open marriage, huh? I mean, I assume it happened a lot at that time just because there were so few love marriages that it's sort of like, hey, if you find somebody, like, produce an heir and then live your life, right? Yeah.

Well, I found that on the one hand, I was surprised that they said that because that is actually like ripped from the books that I prefer goose. Some people prefer duck kind of conversation, but it's a different character that says it, you know, when the prospect of that particular wedding match is brought up. So I found it actually very, very refreshing, um,

in the sense that it gave Rhaenyra and Leonor agency in a situation that steals agency from them. Here they are saying, okay, here's this thing that we have to do, but let's make it work. Like, you want to have Ser Joffrey around? Great. Like, let's just keep it quiet. But like, yeah, absolutely. Go for it. Like, I'm going to do my thing as well. Like, I found that to be a very modern and refreshing relationship and one that

You can't help but wonder, like, man, it'd be great if they could rule and that was the way it was. Like people were just like accepting of stuff. Yes. I mean, it's modern within a pretty intense system of oppression. Like how nice that these two people who for sure aren't into each other still have to get married and reproduce to keep these artifices alive is like, you know, kind

of a bummer, but I hear what you're saying. And I do, like, I like your point about agency for sure because I think especially given Rhaenyra and her super tenuous position in a lot of different ways, there's a way this would have happened where she just had no idea and later felt betrayed or whatever. And the fact that they both kind of know where each other is at and what to expect is

Makes me think at least they're going to be able to have an honest relationship, which we see between Corliss and Rhaenys, but not between a whole lot of other people on this show. So that's something. It was interesting that Rhaenyra then tried that with Crist and Cole. Her and Lyanna had come to this arrangement. And so when Cole approaches her on the deck of the royal ship in his shirt sleeves, it's like, hold on, let me just pause here.

Are we trying to keep this quiet or are we not trying to keep this? Yeah, because are we trying to keep this secret or not? Here's a ship full of fucking sailors. What do sailors do all the time? Just talk about whatever they saw on the ship. It's all they have to do. And

And here you are out of your armor coming up and having like what is clearly a lover's quarrel on the deck of a fucking ship at sea. Yeah. Guys, let's clean this up. Yeah. I mean, the whole like run away with me thing, too, is like, I mean, the trope, it had to happen, but it was a little tropey. It's sort of like, oh, of course, this dude thinks she's just going to like decide not to go to college and run away with him. I've heard you say so many times how you loathe a lot of your position.

that you are to be married off at your father's whim with no thought given to the yearning of your own heart. Are you asking for me? I'm asking you to come with me.

One of the things I appreciate most about the world that George R. R. Martin has created is the way it subverts these kind of fairy tale relationships, the beautiful knight and the lovely princess, and they fall in love and run away together. No, like that can't work. And it shows a lot of growth also for Rhaenyra and understanding of her responsibilities to say, no, I am the realm. Yeah, it's me. The government of Westeros is going to be me. I can't

infamy, like running away with my Kingsguard. Are you kidding? Like I have to run this country. Yeah, it was truly ridiculous. So obviously a lot more happens with Sir Christian in this episode. But should we talk a little bit more about Leonor and Joffrey first? Well, first of all, it would have been great if they could have been happy and free and open about how they live. And I guess this is the version of openness that's available to them in this world. You

You mean before he's brutally beaten to death? That's the other thing is like, you know, if the message to Kristen Cole was, hey, let's clean up our act here. Like, if this is all going to work, you need to be a lot less messy. I think that would go for Joffrey, too, who if we have a secret relationship, maybe don't flaunt it in the middle of a royal wedding and maybe don't go taunt Joffrey.

A person whose job is to protect the queen in the middle of the wedding? Especially when he's in a relationship with the crown princess who is supposed to be the future queen. Yeah, like that's tremendously poor judgment on the part of the now deceased Lord Joffrey of Monmouth. RIP to him. It does seem like there could have been a version of that. And I mean, Rhaenyra was game, right? Where like they each just had their lovers...

and nobody asked any questions. I mean, I'm not saying that Joffrey deserved the end that came to him, but, I mean, you brought up a couple of, like, choices that that dude made at that banquet that led to a pretty horrific end. But, like, you know, I mean, given the conversation they had before they left for King's Landing, it seemed like Joffrey and Leenor were even on the same page about, like, yeah, we can keep doing this. It's fine. We knew you were going to have to get married eventually. Like, we'll make it work. Yeah, there are versions of this all throughout Westerosian history. I mean, Aegon the Conqueror

he married both of his sisters, but it was known that like he was in love with one of them and the other one he had married because she was a great warrior. So like these kind of interesting political arrangements, uh,

happen all the time and we can think about like numerous times in Game of Thrones where they have I mean like you know Ned Stark and Catelyn yeah that's an arranged marriage yeah they made it work they made it work oh my goodness okay so Kristen Cole is interrogated by Alicent it's funny at first I was like oh this is a fun scene and then I was like oh this is not a fun scene man Kristen Cole he's ready to snitch that guy is ready to tell all at any given time

not very good at his job, maybe? I found it interesting that Alicent came in thinking she's asking about Damon and Rhaenyra and then finds out this completely different thing. Those conversations when two people are talking to each other, but they're talking about completely different things and they don't realize it until it's far too late can be very satisfying to watch.

And realizes then that like Rhaenyra has been lying to her on multiple different levels. Yes. And, you know, in that moment, there's one world in which you'd think, well, why would she care? Like, isn't the Daemon relation, isn't that the more...

dangerous one. But yeah, you know, Damon's for blood. So they're already in a de facto alliance. So I think discovering that Princess Rhaenyra has these secret connections to the bodyguard service that is going to protecting her and her kids, as I said before, like that is I think that on top of all the lying is the thing that really sets Alicent apart.

And really gets her feeling like, oh, maybe my dad is right. Like there's things happening around me that I don't see. And the people who are guarding me maybe don't have my best interests at heart, maybe or have someone else's interests at heart. And I really, really need to watch myself right now.

Well, but what a great way to get him in your pocket if you know this big secret about him, you know? I mean, it seems like I think you're right that she's certainly upset. She has every right to be. I think you're also right that it's less about him and more about the fact that Rainier lied at all. Yeah. But I mean, I think it also becomes clear over the course of this episode that he's going to owe her big time. And that's probably going to be super helpful for her. Yeah, because he should, as he noted at the end of that conversation when he says, I would ask only this.

That rather than gelding me and having me tortured, you would sentence me mercifully to death. Yeah, like if that's the big favor you're asking for, like... Because absolutely, he broke his vows of chastity, which are holy. And not only that, but with the princess, and then went off and killed the king consort to be's...

you know, paramour slash best friend. Like, there are a lot of people that want his head right now. And so, Alicent, as his protector, moving in to do that, that shows that she is really understanding how to play the game. Yeah, it totally does. Especially coercing him into it, right? It's like... I mean, it's not a lot of coercion needs to happen. He...

As well as Blackmail. Yeah, it's Blackmail. It's not like a fun friendship. It's Blackmail. So when this episode started and they like went to Driftmark and visited High Tide, did you think the wedding was going to happen in the same app? I was really delighted by the pacing of this episode. I didn't think I was going to see the wedding and I don't think anybody else did either because...

You know, there were supposed to be seven days of jousting and fun and... Yeah, right. A family fun affair with good times to be had by all until the gruesome murder that happened, like, in the hall. And, like, symbolic declaration of war. It's crazy because the last 11 minutes of this episode, like, shit happened. Yeah. Oh, my God. So, first of all...

when the king is speaking, lock down the hall. Lock it down. No one in or out. Why are people walking in when Viserys the king is talking? Because Alicent gives no fucks, and that's great. Well, Daemon did it first. So it's actually a good... That's true, Daemon, yeah. This is what I meant in that previously when I said, like, everybody is sensing the weakness of the king and they're making moves. This is everybody saying, Viserys, you don't really matter anymore, so I have to do things. Yeah.

And, you know, it's interesting the way that will be perceived, the declaration of war with Alicent wearing green, the color of the beacon of the high tower when they call their banished to war. Yeah, like she enters that room. Yes. So that will be perceived that way. But I think she's doing something else.

which is, again, she's alone. Otto, no longer at the capital. Her bodyguard service filled with an unknown number of oath breakers and traitors loyal to Princess Rhaenyra. Her children could be killed who knows when. The king is going to die really soon, as her dad told her. She needs to say, I need help. I need help from my family. Mm-hmm.

That's what I think she's doing. Not necessarily saying, hey, guys, let's gear up and let's load up for war. But like, I need y'all to show up. She's saying, hey, Hightowers, show up. OK. Because I need you right now. They approach her and say as much, too, later on. Your Grace. We thank you for coming, Uncle. Know that Old Town stands with you.

Yes. And I think that is as much of a declaration of like, let's get our swords out. And asking for support. Okay. I think it's saying, hey, back me right now. Back your queen. Back Alicent Hightower because I need you. Oh, one quick note I want to... So...

Part of the book versions of these events are written from the perspective of numerous different narrators. And one of them is Mushroom, who wrote kind of the most scandalous and often it's assumed factually wrong version of the events of these days. He was a dwarf entertainer in the service of the king and his family worked as a jester and he,

I think we see him during the party banging on a little drum with the musicians. That's unconfirmed, but I think that that is Mushroom. I think that is a man who is keeping a well-detailed diary as we speak of the events that are happening right now. Oh, my God. I also, I think this is something that in general is pretty exciting about House of the Dragon, especially compared to Game of Thrones, which we've talked about a little bit, just, you know, in Game of Thrones, all the characters were in so many different places that...

A lot of the drama, a lot of the plot, a lot of the storyline happened, you know, just in conversations between a couple of people. Often they're on horses or whatever. I think partly because of that, it's always exciting for me to see, like, everybody converging. You know, we had the hunting party, now this big banquet. Like, partly it's really fun just to see all the Lannisters walk in. I mean, the Velaryons, too, had, like, an amazing entrance. Yeah.

And just the ostentatiousness of the banquet, right? Like everyone's in their best clothes. There's a scene where Joffrey and Leanor are talking to each other and they're both wearing these just like gorgeous gilded tunics. Oh, yeah. The clothing is amazing. Yeah. Like I just partly I mean, obviously it went to complete hell. But until then, it seemed like it was kind of a cool hang, you know?

I love Jason Lannister coming up and making a women be shopping joke. Yeah. And Rhaenyra being like, it's always so nice to see you, Jason. I ride a dragon, you dick. Like, what are you talking about? Like, get out of my face, bro. Oh, so good. Absolute moron. And, you know, more examples of the perception of the king and the ruling power as kind of waning is Lord Gerald Royce coming right to the high table and

in full voice and view of the king and the hand of the king and being like, hey, Daemon, you killed your wife. Yeah. I know it. I know you did it. And then King Viserys not being like, hey, later, there's a wedding going on. Yeah. It just sort of like lingered there the way it did was interesting.

One thing I wondered, and I don't know, is when we see Lord Geralt offering to go ride with Lady Rhea, he's got his hand on a very nice sword. And House Royce does have a Valyrian steel sword. I'm not sure if that's it, but it's possible whether that is Lamentation, the house sword of the Royces. Oh, great sword name. I think it's possible that we see Lamentation at some point during this series, whether that is that particular sword or not.

Okay. Hat tip to the sword. Hat tip to lamentation. Great name. Um, oh God. Okay. Well, I guess, well, let's see. There was one thing I wanted to mention before we get to the real carnage of this episode, which is the word cunt struck and how not enough of us are using it. I think. Uh, yeah, it's so evocative, isn't it? Isn't it? Yeah. It really, it really does exactly what it needs to do. And I respect it for that. So Kristen Cole, that's one protector. Look at him. The man is fully cunt struck. Yeah.

Well, this is what I mean by Sir Joffrey's incredible poor judgment. Yes. Why are you having this conversation right now? Leanna has to be like, hey, shut the fuck up. Like, that's actually. Yeah. This is her wedding. Yeah. Like, this is not the time. Yeah. Like, look around. Everybody here would love to make their name by, like, challenging you to a duel right here to protect the honor of Crown Princess Rhaenyra and, like, chop your guts out. Like, shut up.

I totally hear what you're saying. I just feel like there's such an intense irony that the person who ends up feeling the need to do that is the person who has sullied her honor. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, I think that power is a hell of a drug. And I think Sir Joffrey, I don't know what's your read on it, but it's clear to me that when they're thinking, oh, we have a little chip in this game now, we have a little bit of information and we can do something with this. I think Sir Joffrey was...

power struck, to use his own term, with the idea that he could advance his interests a little bit with the skillful deploying of this information that he has. And of course, he didn't skillfully deploy it at all. But I think that's what he was trying to do. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess there's almost a read where because I could see a universe where, OK, these two people have to get married because of the rules in this situation. And the

the two people who they're actually romantically involved with do form some sort of relationship just because they would sort of have to commiserate with each other about the weirdness of, you know, the fact that neither of them can actually be out about their love, but at least, you know, they kind of have each other and they are in these secret relationships or whatever. But that is clearly not what Joffrey is trying to set up here. No, Joffrey is trying to set up we've got a little bit of power now because I think, you know, Joffrey...

probably fairly, is thinking, okay, the princess knows a secret about us. If I don't have a secret of my own or something I can use against her, what's to stop her from outing us at any given time and my life is in danger? So there's an aspect of this that is a little bit of a mutually assured destruction kind of strategy, just done in the most ham-handed and stupid and mistimed

there's no reason to do this tonight. Yeah. Like zero reason. No. I mean, there is, to be clear, also zero reason that Kristen Cole could have been like, dude, shut the fuck up instead of beating him to death. I mean, speaking, as you have said before, about the need for a therapist in Westeros, this guy has a lot of oppression and it's not okay.

It's not okay. And I think it's also, we talked about like subverting like the fairy tale of the prince on the white horse. And I think Kristen is maybe bought into the narrative of little bit. Oh, sure. He's like struck by his own tremendous self-regard for his oath and his honor and all this stuff that he believes in so much that he's like, well, I guess I have to murder this guy. Like in the most brutal, devastating way in front of his family. Like,

The fact that we expect that he will survive this, I think you're right when you brought up the fact that Alicent kind of approaching him at the end of this episode and pardoning him. Yes. It's a tremendous move for her because she quite accurately read the situation, which is this is a guy, his life is fucking over. He's going to kill himself. Yeah, he's ready to die. But also if he didn't,

Corlys Velaryon hates you. Rhaenys Velaryon wants you dead. They're the most powerful house and richest family in the realm wants you dead. Not to mention the crown princess wants you dead. Yeah, having that guy in her pocket can't hurt. It's one of those moments where whatever happens next, and I think a lot of things will...

You know, there's kind of no coming back from this one, right? Yes. I'm sorry I laughed. It's just like, yes, I think we can confirm a lot of things are going. I mean, like there's a lot of worse things that are going to happen, we can assume, and more devastating fractures of relationships. But I think if you could say that there was a moment where there was no turning back, it might be.

the murder of the king consort to Bea's lover at the wedding. Yes, because, I mean, this can't be good for now their marriage, right? I mean, God, to go into that. I mean, how can he ever trust Rhaenyra again, really? Well, TBD on that. Okay. I think that there's a world in which this brings them together in a significant way because whatever happened to Joffrey is...

Rhaenyra was not scheming against him. Yeah, no, that makes sense. It was obviously a very hasty wedding in the end. I mean, you know. Can we get a cleanup on Isle Blood? Yeah, they definitely skipped the seven days of parties. I understand the need for haste in this moment, but let's clean up the blood.

Uh, that's a bummer. Don't you think that Liator has to look over and see that? Yeah, it doesn't seem like a great start for sure. Yeah, I think there's a million ways that that's bad luck. Like a million things were bad luck before that, like the multiple interruptions of the king's speech.

the numerous weird vibes, the queen walking in with a, basically a flag of war. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bad times ahead. Whew. Yeah. Not good. Well, and okay. So Viserys collapsing. Yeah. I wonder if we see him next episode. I wonder that too. I mean, we've talked about Otto talked about, he's obviously not long for this world. Um,

I am curious if it would be more chaotic to just have him gone from the board at this point, or if he's in some sort of weird coma situation where people are like acting on his behalf when he's for sure not around. Yeah, TBD, whatever the case, I think everyone had smelled the weakness on him previous to this. Yeah. There's that heartbreaking moment where he asks Lionel Strong, Hand of the King Lionel Strong, where he says... Will I be remembered as a good king, Lionel?

You have carried King Jaehaerys's legacy and kept the realm strong. Is it not better to live in peace than to have songs sung after you are dead?

He actually appreciates the fact that Lionel doesn't do the thing that everybody else would do, which is, oh, if you had been, he says, like, I wish I had been tested. Yeah, you would have been, you would have been Aegon the Conqueror part two, my guy. You would have been a great warrior. Lionel doesn't do that. And it kind of crushes Viserys, but I think he also appreciates that.

the honesty that there's kind of no one around that thinks he had it in him. You know, if he was challenged, he was a peacetime King and that was maybe for the better. Yeah. So what do we do with the death count then?

Well, I think Joffrey, definitely. Let's start with the easy one. R.I.P. Yeah, that seems pretty ascertainable. Rhea? Oh, yeah. Rhea. Damn. That made me sad. That one really made me sad. Rhea Royce. Yeah, that was a bummer. That's two definite death counts and TBD on King Viserys. Long may he reign. Question mark column. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, well, Jason, it is time to move on to our interview of the day. Today we are talking to EP and writer Sarah Hess, who is amazing. I do want to give a quick trigger warning before we get into this episode. I asked her a question about the depiction of sexual violence in the show. So I just want to warn y'all that is something that's coming up in the next couple minutes.

Absolutely delighted today to welcome Sarah Hess to the podcast. Sarah is a writer and EP on House of the Dragon, but you've likely also experienced her writing on the wonderful medical drama House, as well as Netflix's Orange is the New Black. Sarah also wrote for the HBO Western drama Deadwood, which is one of my favorites, but we cannot wait to talk to her about all the schemes, all the...

creative use of language here in House of the Dragon. Sarah, welcome to the official Game of Thrones podcast. Thanks. It's so nice to be here. So how do you write this stuff? Is that how we're starting, Jason? Is that it? I'd love to start because seeing that you worked on Deadwood, which is also a show that had a very colorful and kind of

not natural depiction of language, but very flowery and right for that world. How does one approach writing for characters in Westeros in this fantasy world? I mean, I think it actually there's a similarity to writing both shows and that it is sort of it's realistic.

Dick dialogue, not necessarily real, but there's definitely when I was working on Deadwood, it helped. I have a theater background and it helped to be familiar with Shakespeare and to have read some of those out loud because like David Milch very much wrote, there was a meter to it. And there was, you know, it wasn't like Iambic pentameter like Shakespeare, but there was definitely a meter to how he wrote. And there's a, there's a cadence to it. And so once you hear that,

you can sort of start to absorb the way that it sounds. And so for Westeros, it was very similar. Obviously I had read the books a while back. So it was reading Ryan's pilot, reading the books and just sort of absorbing the way language is used and making it my own. But, uh,

it really helps to have a grounding in classic literature and understanding how those sentence structures work in the grammar because it is archaic. Because if you do too much, it sounds insane. And if you do too little, it's anachronistic. So I think it's a hard tone to find, but I think we managed to really like find the sweet spot of it and make it comfortable. We mentioned some of your credits here. How different is it breaking story, writing for a show where there is a

you know, significant source material to be adapted rather than coming in with a show that, I mean, doesn't have that anchor. I mean, it's almost the same as my last show, which was Orange is the New Black, in that there was source material, but we were really able to make it our own and to, you know, like, you use the material that's there as the spine of the show and definitely more so, obviously, with Fire and Blood, but...

This wasn't like making original Game of Thrones in that the original Game of Thrones was based on a series of novels, right? Whereas this is a different book and it's a history book. So a lot of the more personal character scenes aren't in there. You know, it reads as a history of a civilization and it's like there are big events in there, but there's not necessarily reporting on what happened in somebody's bedroom the night before the battle. That's not there because it wouldn't be in the history book. And also he's very...

very clear in writing the book that it is an unreliable narrative. So nobody in that book actually knows what happened. It's three separate reporters saying what they think might have happened and contradicting each other, which gives us as adapters an incredible amount of leeway because we

We have no idea what happened. And one of the themes that we ran with definitely when we started thinking about it was that history is written by the victors. History is written by men. It's men talking about what they think happened and they are probably wrong. It's great that we have the spine and the story and the characters and all those things there. But within that, there's like a huge amount of leeway and liberty to tell our own story, which is great.

Yeah, that's really cool. I'd actually love to unpack that a little more because I am especially curious about the portrayal of misogyny and patriarchy on this show. Like, as you say, obviously, this is a fictional world. There are literal dragons and you're working from the source material. And when it comes to costumes and scientific progress and cultural traditions, like a lot of what we see is, you know, generally historically accurate to a certain time period. Right.

You've also talked about how House of the Dragon isn't going to portray sexual violence, especially in the same way Game of Thrones did. And I want to be really careful here not to put you on the spot as like a female EP. But I, you know, just want to like I would ask any EP this. I'm just really curious, like how you're navigating those questions in the writer's room with a show like this.

No, that's definitely a fair question and one that I, as a female EP, am extremely concerned with. I would like to clarify that I didn't say that we are not going to portray sexual violence ever. I'm not saying that we are. I don't know. There are hopefully going to be several more seasons of this show, so it's not like off the table. We didn't feel the need to put in what wasn't in the book.

It's definitely a part of the world and something that if it is necessary, we will not shy away from. But I think there's got to be a lot of thought about how it's portrayed.

But yeah, and it's also a more nuanced point to make. I think that you don't have to be raped to be oppressed and traumatized. Absolutely. Yeah, I think I'm more interested in the more subtle ways that it plays out. Yeah, that makes sense. I appreciate that. There is a piece of dialogue between Otto and Alicent in this episode 105.

in which she's basically saying, "Alicent, like, get it together. The realm is not gonna accept Rhaenyra. You need to realize that." And I was reflecting on that and thinking about a line from Rhaenys, Princess Rhaenys, in episode two, where she says, you know, "Men will burn the realm rather than let a woman rule."

It really struck me, Otto's line, because here's a man of this intense power and influence, and he doesn't want to use that to convince people that Rhaenyra should be the queen. Like, he refuses to use it for that purpose. I wonder, what is Otto's motivation? What's his deal? Because it's, on the one hand, he, I think he would think, and he would say, and I think he would say that he's saying sincerely that he has the realm's best interests at heart. At the same time, he's actively working to put his daughter at the

at the highest reaches of power in the realm. So what is motivating him?

I think in simplest terms, people like to think of him as a villain, you know, who's sort of operating for his own best interest. But I actually think that Otto is correct. And it proves to be correct that, you know, it's putting a woman on the throne is going to tear this realm apart and that it is a dangerous thing to do. He's not against, you know, advancing his own fortunes and that of his family. Like, you know, it's like he's definitely like...

Like, we always thought of him as, he's like, he's an opportunist, but he's not, you know, it's, the king was going to marry somebody. Yeah. Like, and Alicent, I think it's, you know, they've, she's been raised as they all, as all gods.

you know, noble born girls probably were in that time. It's like, you are also going to have to marry somebody and to make, you know, and probably to make a political alliance. Like your expectations of your life are not, oh, I'm going to meet somebody and fall in love. And we're going to, you know, go off and have a happy home there. There's like, I'm going to have to marry somebody that my father wants to make an alliance with and produce an heir. And so given that context, Viserys is probably like one of the least bad options for her. Like he's,

The king. And he's not a horrible guy. He's like, he's a nice man. He's going to take care of her. He's going to do his duty. And so given all the variables on the table, I don't think Otto, you know, it's like you can see it in one sense as gross and conniving and wrong.

And in another sense, it was like practical and actually maybe even kind of looking out for her. Like, you know, it's like if they have to make an alliance with some other house, she could get married off to some other rando who is a horrible person. So like, I don't think that in the incredibly skewed universe that we're, you know, telling this story in, it's not the worst thing that he could be doing. He's a fun character to think about because in episode four too, I think at the point

At the point when, you know, for instance, he finds out about Rhaenyra's escapade in town. The coupling? Yeah, the coupling. And he gets the info and he comes back. It's really fun to think about his dilemma, which is like, this is the information he's been waiting for that could bring down his sort of rival, I guess you can put it. But at the same time, it benefits him so explicitly that it's like, it's weird that

Like, it's like, how do you go in and tell the king, oh my God, I heard this thing and da-da-da-da-da, when you know it's going to benefit you and therefore you're going to seem like you wanted it to happen, which you kind of did. So, like, what happens when, like, the best interests of the king align with your interests in a way that makes you seem like you are, you know, enjoying it too much or that you wanted it to happen? And so he definitely hears that news and is like, oh, fuck. Like...

Like, how do I even say this without it seeming like it's me going, ha ha, you know? So he kind of gets stuck in this trap. So I think he's in that place of like, he genuinely thinks what he's doing is right and he wants advancement. And those two things happen to be the same. Although if the king had married somebody else and had a son, I think Otto would be doing the same thing. He would still be like, you should be making the son heir because that's

for the best, you know, the stability of the realm. It's just that he kind of almost screws himself by having made it his own grandson. And now it's like, he can't be seen as, you know, an impartial actor. So yeah, I think he's kind of like torn in two directions. The relationship between Princess Rhaenyra and Alison is obviously such a huge driver. And one of the things I've found so effective as a book reader is that

The way you have fleshed out Alicent, who I think in the unreliable narrator version of the histories that we see in the books is depicted as more of this kind of like ambitious person. But here we see Alicent all throughout what is essentially a no-win situation that she's been put into by her dad in between all these powerful figures has invariably had Rhaenyra's back all throughout these years. Again and again and again has supported her, has stood up for her.

Where we are now feels like we're beginning to see the kind of unbridgeable conflict between them. What's driving that conflict? And where is where is Allison right now in terms of how she feels about Rhaenyra? I mean, in episode five, I think she makes a pretty bold statement that she's sort of like going to stick to her own house and that she's not going to go over and support Rhaenyra. So that's the sort of end of that section. But yeah, I think we made a very conscious decision that it's

It's not good versus evil. It's lots of people trying to do the right thing.

end up being impossible. It's complicated. Their aims being impossible. Yeah, and so the ways that they end up screwing each other over, and it's not because it's so boring to have a character who's just bad. They're out to do bad things, and they're whatever. I want to bring you down. It's like that's so much less interesting than we're all trying to get along, and we're trying to do the right thing, and it just becomes impossible over a series of events. So yeah, she's definitely at this place where

Allison is very concerned with doing the right thing and trying to be a good person and do the right thing. And I think she's maybe always sort of envied slash looked up to slash resented Raniera for being

having this incredible freedom and being able to do whatever she wants and being the one who's like, you know, comes in and is like, fuck you, I'm doing what I want and is sort of like this rebel. But there's definitely a class thing going on there where she's posh. You know, she can get away with it because she's the princess. Whereas if you're

If you're less high up in the hierarchy, you have to be way more careful about following the rules and how you present yourself and not losing your status in society. And so I think she both is exhilarated by Raniere's ability to break the rules and kind of do what she wants as a child, at least, and

maybe resents it a little bit in that she is sort of more, definitely more constricted. But, you know, she's also complicated. I think she finds safety in that. She feels good knowing what the rules are and being able to operate within the box. So I think the betrayal in four when she finds out that Raniera had to leave

had sex with Cole and then lied to her about it, I think is the moment when she realizes like, I don't know you the way I thought I knew you. And maybe you're not somebody that I can trust. And, and you got my dad fired and I just have to take care of myself at this point and figure out, you know, where I am. So I think she's,

in five sort of just coming into her power, realizing sort of really owning at this point, I'm the queen and I'm going to go, you know, I'm going to bring on my like Laris and Kristen Cole. She's sort of making these alliances in five where she's shoring up her own position as opposed to putting herself in service to others. And so I think it's the first glimmer we're seeing of her starting to have her own agenda. Yeah.

I think it's awesome. I think it's super badass. Kind of parallel to that, of course, we have the conversation about, you know, Rhaenyra at this point at least still being heir over her half-brother Aegon. Viserys has assured this a number of times. I'm curious what you think Viserys' reasons are

for really doubling down on having made her heir? I am extremely clear on what I think about it. And I will say that I believe Patty also believes this very strongly. And that is that it's a love story. And that Viserys was deeply in love with his wife, Emma, and never stopped loving her and doesn't ever stop loving her. And he realizes that his quest for a boy and...

ended up killing her and he feels horrible about it. And this is his way of,

of making it up to her. Like, I should have realized, like, you gave me Rhaenyra. And he says in episode one, Rhaenyra is that you are the best of your mother. And she is Emma's daughter. She's Emma's child. She's the only thing he has left of Emma. So he is going to make her heir and he is never going to change his mind because he is never going to stop loving Emma. So I think this putting Rhaenyra as his heir is his penance for what happened. Wow.

And his declaration of love to his wife. And he's never going to change his mind because that would be betraying Emma and what she went through. Wow. What was the thing that Sir Joffrey said that finally pushed Kristen over the edge? Yeah.

What is it that finally gets him to snap? You know, what do we think that was going through his mind in that moment? I think it's like Cole is just all about honor. You know, he grew up with nothing. He was a wandering, a sellsword and a wandering knight. And so it's not like he had any, you know, he didn't have money. He didn't have station. So now he gets this white cloak, all he has.

is his honor and his, his loyalty and his oath. And I think Joffrey's intimation to him that like, uh, we're both, you know, basically sort of gigolos on the side. I think that's the thing that sort of, well, and his, his own deep shame over it's kind of true. Like he did fuck the princess. You know, he has an oath of chastity, uh,

That he took and he broke it. The deep shame of that is eating away at him. And he, you know, he tried to marry Rhaenyra and she was, you know, she's like, no. So I think he he's sitting there stewing in his own shame and looking at this, you know, wedding festivity that's going on, thinking like I sullied the princess and this is what I've done. But it's I think, again, he's he's fanatically devoted to his love.

his cloak and to his calling. And it's, I think, the fact that he knows deep inside that he screwed up. You know, Joffrey's just joking around, whatever, but he inadvertently hits that nerve. That is, it's the thing that Cole cares the most about and the thing that drives him for the rest of the series is, you know, his sense of honor and his sense of a little bit of sort of self-righteousness or like it's his motivation in life.

Yeah, I mean, I could see someone approaching him, taking something that he takes so seriously so lightly that that would just completely set him off. I mean, I still don't think he should have killed the guy in front of a bunch of people, but, you know, that aside, I get it. Yeah, he just ends up snapping because it's like, oh, God, if this gets out, right, he would lose everything. Yeah. Game of Thrones, obviously very well known for fun weddings. Yeah.

Don't. Why does anybody don't go? Yeah, don't go. Don't go. When the invitation comes, do not go. What was it like, you know, kind of taking part in what has become canon of horrific weddings in this franchise?

We knew that when you're going into a wedding, there's going to be an expectation of things going horribly wrong. And so we wanted to kind of play with that expectation and so sort of have a bunch of red herrings in there of like things that people might think are going to go off but don't. So, you know, Damon versus Gerald Royce, who's...

mad about is, you know, whatever. And, you know, Jason Lannister's there. He's angry because Rhaenyra jilted him. And so, like, we tried to put in just a lot of places that the conflict could be coming from and then have it sort of kick off when you're not expecting it, you know, in a different way.

We didn't think anybody was watching that was going to watch it think, oh, maybe this time it'll all be great. What a fun. The music is great. The costumes are cool. This is a great hang. Yeah. I wonder what's it like writing for this cast?

I think from top to bottom, our cast is so strong. And especially, it was a little bit harder writing into a vacuum before we had cast them. And it's sort of your idea of what they're going to be or what they're going to sound like. And then once we had cast all these people, you know, these people come in and they're so incredible. And it becomes, it just makes our job so much more fun because...

Once you see them, you can picture it. And I mean, particularly when Emma first appeared on our Zoom screens in an audition, the character of Rhaenyra within 15 seconds just dropped into place. Like, I saw them. I went, that's it. Like, I immediately knew who Rhaenyra was and what their deal was and what it's going to be. And it's just like, it illuminates things in such a fun way. And then to be able to rehearse with them and feel the words out and, you know, have the actors say, this feels a little weird.

weird or this feels a little off and like make the adjustments and like it's that's the fun of it for me is it's a living being it's a living beast and when you have collaborators that are this good it's just really exciting to go in there and it's an adventure that you're doing together so yeah it's been the best our actors are the best that's so cool well Sarah thank you so much for chatting with us this was really fun thank you for having me it has been really fun

What a great conversation, Sarah. Obviously so experienced and thoughtful about her craft and about the way this story is being told. There's so much thought that goes into this. Yeah, her answer to the question about where Viserys' head is at when it comes to keeping Rhaenyra air, I thought was...

So beautiful. I had not given that relationship quite as much credit as she had. And I'm really glad that she kind of opened that up for us. Same. I had not really thought about him feeling guilt for losing Emma in the way that that happened. And so, yeah, that was that really opened up another level of understanding that character. Yeah, super powerful. And it just makes me excited for season two. So that's cool, too.

And I agree with her about, listen, if you get a raven that says we are inviting you to the upcoming nuptials of so-and-so and lady so-and-so, don't go. I am so sorry. I already had plans. I'm having my nails done that entire month. Yeah, literally anything at all. Yeah.

All right, that's it for today's episode. Don't forget to join us again next Sunday night. We will be discussing House of the Dragon episode six with co-showrunner, director and executive producer of the show, Miguel Sapochnik. If you can't get enough House of the Dragon conversation, you should check out the House of the Dragon subreddit where...

There are fun conversations going on, some fun theorizing, just takes about which character is bad and which one is good. Check it out. Really fun conversations going on there. And we want to hear from you. Don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice and find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles. You can find me on Twitter at NETW3RK.

And you can find me at Greta M. Johnson on Twitter and Instagram. The official Game of Thrones podcast, House of the Dragon, is produced by HBO Max. In collaboration with iHeartRadio, this podcast is hosted by Jason Concepcion. And Greta Johnson. Our executive producer is Molly Socha. Our supervising producer is Nakia Swinton. Our lead sound engineer is Matt Stiller. This episode was edited by Sierra Spreen. Our producer is Jason Concepcion in association with Crooked Media.

Special thanks to Michael Gluckstadt, Alison Cohen, Kenya Reyes, and Becky Rowe from the HBO Max podcast team, and Ashley Morton, Dana Froome, and Liz Keating at HBO Creative Marketing.