Deep Dive
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Okay, so just for the levels, tell me what you had for breakfast, Raheel. For the levels. Today I had my usual grapefruit, apple, kefir smoothie with flax seeds, ginger and cinnamon. That's as healthy as it gets. Today's episode isn't an exploration of a forgotten piece of history, a tricky topic or an ethical dilemma. It's a story, plain and simple, a remarkable one,
One that I came across on a recent teaching trip to Oxford just before the corona outbreak. I just had to share this with you. It's a little longer than normal, but I get the feeling that a story about the search for personal peace is just what our anxious world needs right now. And if you want to say something a different way, just say, I'll say that again and then say it.
If you want to restate something. Okay, yes. Yes. And then we will, in the edit, we just take the good version. The good version. Okay. I'm just saying. Well, that was the intention. A lot of work goes into these episodes, and so there's usually not room for everything I'd like to include. But this story is kind of special, and the Undeceptions team unanimously voted to break format.
What you're going to hear is one man's answer to the common claim that whatever you're born into, that's what you end up believing. It turns out we're nowhere near as bound by our context or education or experiences as some of us might believe. The human heart is capable of amazing left turns. I'm John Dixon and this is Undeceptions. Undeceptions
This episode is brought to you by Zondervan Academics' new book, Tactics, by Greg Koukl.
Each week, Undeceptions explores some aspect of life, faith, history, culture or ethics that's either much misunderstood or mostly forgotten. With the help of people who know what they're talking about, we'll be trying to undeceive ourselves and let the truth out. Today's story is all about the geographical, personal and spiritual journey made by my new friend, Raheel Patel.
But before I hand over the mic to him, maybe a little context would be helpful. Rahil is a quiet-spoken, unassuming man who was born into a devout Hindu family in England. Their devotion to certain texts, rituals and practices connects them to what many scholars call the oldest religion in the world.
Hinduism, or Sanatana Dharma, the eternal law, dates back as far as 1500 BC, maybe even earlier. But it's not an easy religion to grasp. When someone mentions the word Christianity, you know immediately it has something to do with a person called Christ. When we say Buddhism, we think of the Buddha, the man Siddhartha Gautama.
But when we come to Hinduism, things aren't so simple. The name tells you zero about the content. There was no such person as Hindu to give us Hinduism. And people in India don't even call it Hinduism. That word just comes from the Indus River in India. So Hinduism is really just a Western way of saying the stuff people near the Indus River believe. It's not super helpful.
But Sanatana Dharma, Hinduism, is the world's third largest religion with just over 1 billion followers. And they're united by some core beliefs. Here's a kind of cheat sheet for you. In Rahil's story, you'll hear about things like karma. That's the universal law of cause and effect. Your action determines a reaction in this life and in the next life because Hindus believe in reincarnation, of course.
Then there's Atman. This is your true self, your very soul, as distinct from the personality you think of as you. And connected to Atman is Brahman. This is the supreme spirit within and around everything.
Now, for some Hindus, it's simply the impersonal animating principle of the universe. For others, though, it's close to the Western concept of one universal God. And then there's dharma or duties, the rights, laws and practices that produce good karma and bring a Hindu into harmony with Brahman. And that's where Rahil's story begins. Striving for Harmony.
You were quite a devout child. Can you tell me your daily practice as a kid? Yeah, daily practice. In our home, we had a special room dedicated for the house shrine where we had the images of the God that we worshipped as the Supreme Being. So for us and thousands of other similar families, waking up in the morning, the first thing we did was to have a bath
then wear fresh clothes. Then we all in the household had a special personal prayer kit with the relevant images of the God that we were worshipping. We'd pray for 20-25 minutes. I would do that. And then you go downstairs into the house shrine and you do another ritual, a form of worship for another 15-20 minutes. And then you're allowed to drink water.
Before any of this, you are not allowed to drink or eat anything. So after that worship ritual in the house shrine, I would have my breakfast and then I'd go to school. Coming back from school, the first thing you do is you obviously take off your shoes. Shoes weren't allowed in the house anywhere. You go into the house shrine, you prostrate six times, you say a few prayers and then you get down to your homework.
When your homework time is over, by say 5 or 6 o'clock, Dad's home, Mum's got the food ready, we prepare a special dish of food for the images in the house shrine. We take the dish there, we worship, we offer the food to God first. For a good 30 minutes that ritual takes place. Then we all sit down to eat.
After dinner it would be maybe a bit of TV or reading. Then the family gets together again and we pray together for a good 25-30 minutes. That was called ghar sabha, which means to hold a service or a kind of a service in your own home as a family discussing scriptures together. And then...
That would be around nine o'clock at night and then everyone does whatever they feel and then it's bedtime. You continued in this way and spent more and more time in your local temple. Yeah. But at 16 years of age, instead of starting a rock band like I do, you... I wish I did now. You were, you know, set on quite a path after a speech you gave that...
in the temple. Can you tell me what was the speech about and what path did it set you on? So our temple was in Northwest London, near where I had been raised and brought up. So I was, by the age of 16, given the responsibilities to look after all the youth activities in the temple. And by this time, this is around 1988, this particular denomination was...
growing pretty fast, you know, in terms of denominations it was fairly new, it was only 300 years old compared to other denominations. And the Guru was in London at the time of this speech. And in this particular Hindu practice, the Guru is the vessel of God on earth. Whatever he says, does, is God saying and doing.
When we look at him, we're looking at God. When we worship him, we're worshipping God. So he was in the assembly and I was asked to speak on a Hindu scripture, which basically means to believe yourself above from the three bodies, separate from the three states of evil, Sattva, Raja, Tamas and worship God.
You're Lord, you're God, you are not this body, you are not belong to this world, you belong to him. So that was the verse and I extrapolated in there for 20 minutes. There were about 3,000 people in the congregation and he was very happy, he was over the moon, which was a surprise to me.
I went and bowed and took his blessings and I still remember this vividly. He said, "You spoke very, very well and you have a good gift. You should become a priest." A swami is the real name. It's a monastic lifestyle yet with a very evangelistic approach or practice. Immediately I said, "Yes, John, because that's God telling me."
I'll be honest as well, you know, getting that kind of recognition in front of 3,000 people at the age of 16 from God is like, wow, you know? So it did feel, looking back, it did fill my pride. It did fill certain gaps that I felt I had in my home. You know, this father figure, incredible father figure. I said, yes. And that...
That moment was very mystical because he had a very mystical ambience about him. He was very prophetic. He was very charismatic. He was a great listener. So this was in 1988. I'd just finished my GCSEs. He then went to America. I followed him to America, toured with him for two and a half months and
I just got so engrossed. I got really radical. This is the purpose of my life. This is my destiny. This is where I'm going to head. God, heaven, serving him. Wow. There was no doubt in Rahil's mind that he would become a swami. That's a master of the spiritual life. His parents weren't entirely happy with that, though.
mainly because of the strict vows it involved in his case. As a priest, he would swear never to meet or talk to his parents again. He wouldn't be paid. He couldn't touch money. He would commit to a life of celibacy. He wouldn't marry. He wouldn't even be allowed to talk to or intentionally look at a woman again.
And this was all part of his complete detachment from this world. And so in 1991, full of faith in his spiritual destiny, he left for a remote monastery in India. So you went to Gujarat. Gujarat, yes. To the desert area. And did training to become a priest. Can you tell me about the regime? Oh, it's tough. Very vigorous. So you wake up at 4.30 every morning.
latest quarter to five. Unless you're sick, you always have a cold water bath. You don't give your body the comfort of warm, comfortable water. You have that practice. You always have a bath with your robes on. You never take your robes off. You're never allowed to show that body. Then you sit down in your personal prayers for a good 45 minutes. Once the prayers are done, everybody on the campus
At the time there were 150 of us. We get together in the main temple in the centre and we worship together at 6 o'clock in the morning. And so that continues for about half an hour, 6:30. Then everyone's given chores to do. You sweep the grounds or you clean the toilets or you help make garlands for the images or you help in the kitchen. That rota changes every 14 days, you do chores. Then 7:30 everyone has breakfast together.
8:30, 8:15 rather, the first sermon starts in the morning. This is of the main scripture, the Vajnamrat scripture. You take notes in that because every 14 days there's a three hour paper on all 14 sermons and you are expected to score above 91% in that. From 9 o'clock your classes start until, and your studies end at around 7 o'clock at night.
Your classes finish at 7 o'clock at night, but your studies continue till around 11pm. So what happens in the day? Different philosophies of the Hindu Canvas, you study them in depth. The main scriptures, Ramayana, Mahabharata, Gita, you study. But then in more depth, this particular denomination and its scriptures were studied in much more depth.
You have breaks throughout the day. You have three more worship gatherings to go to in the main temple as well. You have lunch obviously. There is time for a nice afternoon one hour nap. You do have to do either yoga or any normal conventional exercise so you fit half an hour 45 of that into your day.
And so that's the usual typical day. How long are you doing this for? Over how many months, years? Six years. Six years is your basic. And then you also have the fasting in that you do five fasts a month minimum, which is 36 hours without food and water. And in that heat, I remember once, John, I was up and I was walking up to the temple steps. It was six o'clock in the morning.
It was so hot, 42 Celsius. I had fasted the night before. I was in tears. Everything gets dry in your body and everything is dry. And the ground there, there's no carpet. Everything heats up in the summer. So when you're sleeping on the floor, you only have a bedding three, four inches thick.
the heat goes, the heat of the tiles goes right through the bedding and it doubles the heat. And you know there were 15 of us from England and America in the whole batch. So we struggled more than the average
average person that you become a priest 1995 95 i was ordained what did you do then what is the role of a priest what was your role as a priest so my role different people are given different roles based on their giftings my role was i spent a couple of years in mumbai looking after youth activities but then in 1997 more importantly i was given the role of europe and russia
to evangelize, set up temples, build the congregation, raise funds for more activities.
Hinduism had experienced some success in the West, in America, the UK and Australia. But Europe was different. It was kind of barren territory. In fact, similar to the way Christianity has struggled in Europe. I mean, since the 18th century, much of Europe has been stridently secularist, preferring to exclude any kind of spirituality from the public square.
So Rahil had a huge task, building the Hindu faith from the ground up. You find one person, you find one family who's really dedicated, very loyal. Until there isn't one of those, you don't even bother going to a city.
Now we did go to some cities where there was no one and there was some guy who might just want to host you and do a big assembly. That was fine, but that wasn't really our priority because we knew that once we left, no one's going to continue the work. So you find one family and then you really invest and I think this is what's really powerful is when we had a congregation,
We wouldn't just give a sermon and a speech or a lecture. We were very involved in their lives. We'd go to their homes. We'd listen to their problems. We'd connect them with other people who had businesses if they needed help in that area. We'd connect them if they needed a job. We'd be so involved in day-to-day work.
and we would sit there and spend time with them and eat with them. This was the most important thing taught in the monastery, that eating with your disciples and followers is more important than your fancy sermon. So every centre, all 9,000 centres across the globe, every Saturday, every Sunday, it was a principle. There's food for everyone supplied by the temple and centre. Abundant.
And the principle was there should be food left over. There should never be food, you know, not enough food. So that's a way of also connecting and bringing people together. And this, it's weird eating with people isn't really written down in any spiritual book, but it has a very deep spiritual dimension. And we had a strong belief in that.
So going to their homes, eating with them, listening to their problems, really, you know, looking after them genuinely, being available. We didn't have a Sabbath. We didn't know the concept, Friday off or Sunday off. It was six o'clock in the morning till 11 at night. And so that's the kind of investment you do in people. Once you get one,
then he starts developing families. He starts bringing people together. He'll introduce you to more people when you go next time. And that's how it grows. It's important to understand, though, that Hinduism isn't just offering people a lifestyle. It's actually about escape. Escaping this cycle of birth, a life of pain, and then rebirth into a new life of pain. That's the key to understanding Hinduism.
The key question it tries to answer is, how can you release yourself from the bondage of reincarnation, this physical body that has its evils of lust, anger, greed, jealousy, avarice, and have ultimate and have ecstasy with God through worship here on earth. And once your soul is enlightened, sit in that place.
relevant heaven because they believe in the multiverse in that relevant heaven. So how can you do that? Right? How can you achieve that? And this is the question you actually ask a Hindu as a non-Hindu. You don't say which God do you believe in? You actually say what's your spiritual practice? That
That goes to the person. So that's the question that a Hindu would ask. How would you answer it? It depends on which schools of philosophy you're from. An Advaita whose fundamentals are rooted in monism would say meditate on the Brahman who is one and who is in me.
etc, etc. This is the path of knowledge. Yeah, this is the path of knowledge. This is the path of, you know, of eradicating desires and bondages for this body. Just meditate on Brahman. Aham Brahmasmi means I am the Brahman.
I am one with the Brahman. That's what they would say as an answer. As one of the answers, I'm simplifying. A Vishishtha Dvaita who has a very personal God, a very intimate God, who for example Krishna, they would say believe something like believe yourself as the Atman, not this body. Delve deep into that belief on a daily basis. Practice that belief that you are the Atman, not this body.
and offer worship to Krishna as your personal God. This is, am I correct in thinking, this is sort of the principle answer that Krishna gives Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita.
Yeah. So it's Bhakti, right? The Bhagavad Gita is perhaps the most popular portion of the Hindu scriptures. It's a poetic conversation between Prince Arjuna, an ancient clan leader, and his charioteer and advisor, who turns out to be the god Krishna.
Krishna reveals to Prince Arjuna the three ways of liberation from this world. One is the path of deeds, that's doing enough good in life that you improve your station in the next life. One is the path of knowledge, which basically involves study, meditation and ascetic practices. But the third is the path known as bhakti, devotion. If you give yourself everything
holy to your favoured God, you will be divinely helped toward liberation. And Krishna says to Arjuna, this is the best path to take. So you're saved through devotion. Through devotion. Through devotion. And the claim is that karma is eradicated the more you do devotion. That's how it's eradicated. Whether you still...
or feel the weight of karma is another debate altogether because Arjuna did feel that weight after the war was over he did exactly what Krishna said Krishna said to him you know this is a dharma yud this is a righteous war in the Mahabharata scripture he did everything he could to avert war to stop it and yet Duryodhana didn't agree the opposite family member so war was inevitable Arjuna was set up to kill his own brothers
and his own guru, his teacher in archery, everything. So this is the very important question here because Arjuna is on the battlefield and he
the armies are lined up and he looks at his family members, he looks at Bhishma, his guru who taught him all the skills he has and he turns to his charioteer who's Krishna and says Siddhanti Mamagatrani Mukhamcha Parishushyati Vepatushya Sharivarema Romaharsha Sajayate That's the Sanskrit first thing. My bones are trembling now. My hairs are standing on end. My mouth is dry. What do I do?
Krishna says this is not the karma that you think it is I am telling you to do this so this is not karma this will not attach and yet when the war is won by the Pandava family and Krishna primarily due to Arjun after the war when you look at the disciples and you see Arjun's life or his brother Bhima or Sahadev or Nakul or Yudhisthir
When you look at how the lives panned out, you still see the weight of karma, of condemnation, of guilt, very prevalent in their lives. Guilt is part of the human condition, it seems. Our sense of it and our longing to get rid of it. And as educated and devout as Raheel was, guilt was the rock his Hinduism struck head on.
It doesn't pan out. I mean, in my life, let's look at my life. Let's just look, we don't need to go three and a half thousand years back. We come to my life, right? My guru was the personification of Swami Narayan on earth, the Supreme Brahman on earth. And again, you know, it was very clear, your karma, your evil thoughts that you have now and then, which is also karma, right? They're vanquished, right?
by the Guru's blessings and His grace. Right, okay, I understood that intellectually, I understood that from scripture. Did I have that deep sense in my conscience that I am completely free from all this? That I'm completely removed from all this? Did I feel no burden? No. And it's cheeky, but I don't think any of my colleagues felt that either.
and which was my very first question in my first month in training in 1991 to the Guru. When it is November 1991 he came to the monastery just to check on us, how we're doing, what's going on. I said there have been priests and sadhus for 40 years practicing. Sincerely, I don't see the inner change that's promised. I see brilliant external vows, disciplines,
you know, practices, wonderful, you know, it's mind-blowing. But where's the inner change? Where's this sense of joy or this real peace? Here's just one important thought, John, before we go to your next question. The word peace, right, in all of the Hindu religions is closer to the concept of indifference,
We looked very peaceful to our whole congregation. I've had those comments so many times. Yet I was riddled with anxiety. Now, indifference is not the same as peace. Indifference comes from detachment to the world, which requires to a good degree a hardened heart. But
on the face it looks very spiritual, it looks very calm. Things don't bother you, things don't trouble you, things don't affect you. You know how to create an equilibrium state in your mind through that detachment practice. In that worldview there has to be certain circumstances for you to have that sense of peace. You have to be in a certain place or certain posture. Why I want to make that point is
A lot of Westerners get drawn to the peace and the calm of Eastern mysticism without really knowing the layers underneath. So what happens when someone as deeply committed to Hinduism as Raheel can't find the peace he hoped for and begins to doubt the very structure of his faith? That's where we go after the break.
This episode of Undeceptions is brought to you by Zondervan Academics' new book, ready for it? Mere Christian Hermeneutics, Transfiguring What It Means to Read the Bible Theologically, by the brilliant Kevin Van Hooser. I'll admit that's a really deep-sounding title, but don't let that put you off. Kevin is one of the most respected theological thinkers in the world today. He's a
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68-year-old Tirat was working as a farmer near his small village on the Punjab-Sindh border in Pakistan when his vision began to fail. Cataracts were causing debilitating pain and his vision impairment meant he couldn't sow crops.
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You started to have lots of doubts and questions. Yeah. And these, did they get you into trouble? They got me into trouble. My doubts. I believe I was very free with the Guru. I was one of his really favourite disciples. He had 800 followers.
At the time, I was one of the youngest. I never had to go through the hierarchy to reach him. He had given me a blank check. Whenever you want to call me, I'll be available. And he was like a father as well, as a God to me. I was very open with him. So from day one, I was obviously sharing my doubts, my questions, even about his whole divinity. I just had genuine questions. I wasn't trying to be an anarchist. I didn't know, though, John, that over...
I'd say from 2005 onwards I didn't know that this was building up in his mind, you know, my questions and doubts. At the same time I started looking back into other Hindu scriptures to find deeper answers to truth, you know. I started having this secret sort of fascination towards Christ even though I was wearing these orange robes. I just loved looking at the cross
I didn't know exactly the true deep meaning. I knew he was crucified from my school days. Didn't know what it meant. So I found that quite attractive. I started going in churches more. It wasn't so much the art and architecture. I just felt there was something there that was really attractive. But by that time, my position was very senior, so no one questioned me going into a church.
If anyone did, I'd say I'm just learning from the Christians, just want to see what they're doing, how they operate, how they manage, how they evangelize. That's what I said. People bought that. But as I traveled more and more and I met people outside of the fold, my view of God started to change. In that, I started believing him to be much bigger, more diverse, more beautiful, a borderless kind of God, not tied into a guru or an image in a temple.
And so in a very subtle way I used to bring these into my speeches and to my surprise people were really enjoying this. And I thought this is really strange. In Orlando, 2007 at the National Convention, I was giving a keynote speech for 10 minutes. I read a Hindu verse and I gave an interpretation entirely from my own experiences of what I was seeing throughout my travels.
John, the whole crowd, there were 8,000, they stood up and started clapping. It was the most bizarre thing. I remember I sat down next to my friend, he's a priest as well, from England, a dentist. He says, "Wow, how do you interpret that verse like that? I found it fascinating." I didn't sell him, I said, "Well, only if you knew, it had nothing to do with Hindu scripture."
So you're saying you were sort of almost secretly preaching a Christian vision of God. Yes. Under the pretext of a Hindu scripture. Yes. Yes. Which was quite cheeky. Come on, you got into trouble eventually for doing that, did you not? I did get into trouble. I didn't know it was all building up in the background. No one was telling me. You know, I felt sick quite a lot. 2010, I was really sick. I was on about 40 tablets a day. I was in and out of really good clinics here in London, but
They found a clinic in Florida, the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Florida. I spent 10 months there, had five doctors on my case, each of them like chairmen of their department. What is wrong with you? You're only 40 years old. You've got all these issues. One of them is still a friend of mine. Came back to London. This is 2011, October, and I hadn't met the guru now for a good one and a half years. So I thought, let's go and see him.
even though I had all this baggage of doubts and whatever. He's still my father and I'm still in this now, you know, it's 19, 20 years now. Let's go with it. Go and see him in Bombay and I landed in Bombay and someone, as I approached the temple, a friend of mine, a priest, he said, look, just be careful, there's a plot against you, you know, there's some whispers going on about you. I said,
No one's told me this. I wasn't that naive. I would know. He said, look, before you go and see Guruji, just remember, just submit to whatever he says. So anyway, I went into the room. I said, this is what I thought, John. I said, well, he's always had my back. I'll meet him personally, which I always have the chance to do. I'll tell him whatever he feels wrong and I'll handle the rest of the seniors after that. But when I walked into the room, a whole group of very senior people
Like the cardinals, they all walked in with me. And the issue was my theology. It was my preaching. It was my speaking. So he said, look, I'm keeping you now in a village in India. You have too much influence, you know, on people's minds. And for the first time, John, in my 20 years, I said no to God. I'm not obeying that. And I didn't even know how I said that. The room went kind of silent. He said, all right, look, I'll put you in the U.S. in a small town.
But not in England, not in London, not in a city like that. Again, I said no. And then they all started debating about my theology. He should stay in India for a while, sit with this Swami for a while, get his doctrine, you know, really solidified. Went on for about five, ten minutes. And then I just did a sigh. I said, look, I just want to go home. I don't want to be a Swami anymore. And how that came out of my mouth, I have got no clue. The room went silent.
and to my shock and yet peace of mind he said fine go it's like after 20 years it was that it like go there was nothing in europe like i built 500 people there you've got temples now in antwerp paris lisbon you were 18 centers is that it just go i like it john my mind just froze he said on two conditions don't talk to anyone that you know in the organization
and never give a speech again in your life. I said fine, because I didn't believe anything I was speaking anyway. I used to say that to people on the mic. I didn't say that, sorry. I said, please don't record this sermon. They thought I was being humble. I was saying that because I don't believe it. I asked my followers in Norway once, I said, do you believe everything I tell you? They said, you're wearing these orange robes. You're not married. You don't get paid. Look at your sacrifice.
You must be telling the truth. And I thought, is that your measure of truth? You know, I thought, how easy is it to control thousands of people by giving such a holy appearance, you know? So I said, fine, I won't speak. And then that night they gave me two pairs of trousers, two shirts. They took everything that was orange back, which is the traditional norm. My parents were told that he's coming back.
Where do I go? Because they had now moved to Dubai. Where do I go in London? So one friend put me up in his hotel in London. He said, "Come and stay here. I won't tell anyone that you're here. And let's find a job for you." You know, at the age of 40. So I landed in London in December 27th, 2011. Went straight to South Kensington where his hotel was.
And I had given up my search for God and everything that I had started out when I was 14, 15, 16. Disappointed. I did a lot, John, you know. I did a 2,000 mile pilgrimage across India. I climbed Mount Girnar three times. That's 10,000 steps offered worship to the shrine of Dattatreya. I read all these books, Arundh's Transcendental Mind, Vivekananda's works, and meditation, this and that practice.
I said forget it. So I'm really disappointed. I came back peaceful that I had left chapter club but disappointed with like this whole God thing. Raheel had come full circle returning to London a very much disillusioned man with seemingly nothing to show for decades of devotion except an abiding realization that his faith had delivered none of the peace or sense of fulfillment he'd been seeking. Mid-Jan
2012 I was walking to South Kensington Station which is in the city of London and I was just focused going and I remember I was crossing Bute Street and I was just looking at the station and my head literally turned 90 degrees and I saw this beautiful church down this quiet road. It's Holy Trinity Brompton's church sort of plant
I thought that must be a nice one, like the ones in Rome with all these paintings and things. You know, I had no clue that it would blend and everything inside. So I said, let's go and have a look. Then I'll go to the West End. It was a Sunday morning around 11.15am. So I went down this road.
And as I came to the door of the church, there were these two guys, Australians, Josh and Sarah, were standing at the door. And I remember they had this love just like oozing out of them. It was so creepy, you know, it was so attractive. And yet not acquainted with that. I walked past them and
As I entered into the church, my first few steps, the presence of God just fell on me with this beautiful... It was just this blanket of this deep peace. And I heard this whisper of... It wasn't audible, but this sense of your home. Why that's important? Because that same authentic voice 20 years earlier in the month of November
When I was in my first month of training in the monastery, I was prostrating to the images with all the other 150 Swamis. That voice came and said, have you made the right decision? Are you in the right place? And I stood up from my prostrations and I went to the balcony of the temple and I said, what have I done? But then I thought, this must be Maya, the Hindu version of devil, stopping me in my destiny. So I suppressed it.
That voice did come a couple of times after that once when I was reading Swami Vivekananda's works. It just came. It wasn't audible but it said, "Jesus Christ of Nazareth." It was such a beautiful, authentic voice and I said, I just had to shake it off. I was in my monastery in my office, my orange lobes. But that's what happened on that day in 2012. You're home. I went upstairs and heard the sermon. The worship, I'd never seen worship on drums and guitars.
I didn't go down for prayer. I went back to the hotel. I sat on my bed. I didn't say any specific prayer. I just said yes. I remember saying that to myself. Yes. You know, which for me was fascinating because to convince me when I was a priest about anything wasn't that easy. I was very difficult to debate with, not out of rebellion. They would hold certain board meetings when I was in Europe if they wanted to get something passed.
And they knew that if I'm there, I'd change the course of the meeting. I wouldn't let certain things pass. And for this encounter then, for me, was that much more fascinating that no one preached, no one gave a sermon. It was just his presence. But what content did you have for Jesus of Nazareth? At that time, in that moment, on that day, nothing. I can't articulate anything except for it was incredible.
very attractive. There was something, there's a pull, there was some sort of really attractive pull about even the name Jesus of Nazareth. And I still find that really attractive today, just saying that. Even as a priest, when I would hear the word Messiah, it was so attractive. I remember taking off at Heathrow and looking out the window and just saying the word Messiah twice, because I'd read it somewhere. And it was such a beautiful feeling.
Messiah, you know. And so that's the only content I had. It wasn't a simple journey from there for Raheel. And if you want more details, then we can cram into this episode. He's actually written about his spiritual journey toward Christianity in a book beautifully titled Found by Love. And we'll put a link in the show notes.
Investigating his doubts, following that voice that spoke to him, has resulted in many professional and personal losses. But Rahil can only talk of the gains he's made. You know, it's huge. Only one who's pursued karma would know the difference between karma and grace. You're standing there and you haven't got a clue what's going on. And the presence of God just comes and sits and does communion with your own spirit.
That's mind-blowing. Does this change feel like a cultural betrayal? Obviously you had Hindu friends and family who just see this as a betrayal of all that you are and I can imagine that it would affect you and you would somehow feel psychologically treacherous. That particular organization and the people within it, my good guess is because I had no contact, my good guess is that they all felt a deep betrayal.
I also felt huge rejection, if that makes sense, and abandoned them. This was the deep feeling in me for a good two years until God started healing me and taking me on the journey of rejection and feeling treacherous and feeling like a backstabber. So I don't feel that now. I don't feel treacherous. I don't feel any of that. I'm completely free of that. From their point of view, I do get some beautiful messages from them now. Some of them I've read my book.
some really beautiful, kind messages, really happy for you. We miss you. You were very different. You know, I'd love to see you some stage. A couple of other people have met me. I've heard that some of the priests have read my book. They found it very honouring, which was a testimony to what Jesus has done in my heart in terms of forgiveness, because I journeyed through a lot of that and I still am. Culturally, I don't feel I have to be a Westerner to worship Jesus.
But because of where I ended up geographically, I'm not usually worshipping with a lot of Asian Indians. But the kind of people God put me with in the very beginning were very much of that sort of posture of worship, you know, if I want to say that. I do miss things about the culture of that life. I do miss the sense of community. You know, it wasn't something you did on a Tuesday or a Sunday lunchtime.
It was a way of life. I'd say if I was still in those clothes and still in that time, disciplines, daily spiritual practices or lack of. I wouldn't use the words, but I'd say something along the lines of cheap grace. I did say to my guru once in a small village we were there, I said, "These Christians have got some good things." He said, "Yeah, they may be good at administration and management and all those kind of things, but there's nothing else in their character
I would say the main thing is lacking disciplines. And somehow I still feel that today. And discipline, I think, in a lot of Western culture is misconstrued as punishment. Discipline can come out of religion, but it can also come out of romance, you know, when you're in love with someone. Which brings me to my final point. And I think the devotion side of Christianity, if I were standing in those robes,
10 years ago. The whole devotion side is very shallow or lacking. Culturally, when I go to certain churches in America or India, which are predominantly Indian people, they still take off their shoes when they go in the church. They still have their instruments, Indian instruments. They sing liturgy with the Sanskrit intonations. I've seen all that. So I don't feel I have to let go of a culture. That's the sort of thing I miss. I do miss some of those people,
I do. My brother's still there. I'm not allowed to talk to him. So there are some... It's something like you said in class, John, you know, and this is really, you said it beautifully, and this is how I sort of say it. There are other faiths and cultures that have kingdom truths that are not always in the church, but they are from Christ, you know? Can I ask you a final double-barrelled question? If I've not bored you enough so far. No, here's my double-barrelled question.
Can you help my listeners, most of whom are not believers, describe the most attractive thing about Hinduism for a believing Hindu? And then I want you to tell me the most attractive thing about Christ for you now. The most attractive thing for a Hindu believer is a deep sense of belonging to a community, to a group of people who are practicing worshipping.
doing life together. I think that's the most attractive thing. I will say they may not see it as that until they're removed from it because it's so intrinsic. The attraction is fulfilled. I'd say a deep sense of belonging. In Christ right now, the most attractive thing is encountering the tangible available presence of God through Christ that
deep joy, that peace, that love that nourishes not just your... these aren't just words, I'm not just saying words because I've done Eastern practice. The presence of God satisfies every part of your being and that's available every single day. Throughout the day you just posture your heart, your intention to Him, your affection to Him and He comes
And whether you're in a difficult storm of life or whether you're in a bit of anxiety here and there, there is something available that comes in and not just intellectually gives you perspective but changes your whole being in that instant whereby you don't have to intellectualize about your current circumstances, however difficult they are. You just have this incredible peace that you know that's come from somewhere else.
you know you haven't worked so hard to get the peace or worked to get that joy. So what I would say is just irrelevant of circumstances, this incredible deep joy, peace, love and most importantly attractive is when I fall short, when I make a mistake, when I think something wrong, that engagement with His presence cleanses the consciousness. You're just free.
of all your shortcomings. You're not burdened by karma. That's impossible elsewhere. That's impossible. You're not burdened by all your shortcomings. You said something stupid. You thought something bad. His presence, it's... I'm loved as I am, John. There's nothing more I can do that would make him love me more. And there's nothing I have done that would make him love me any less. I am loved as I am right now. And that for me is the most freeing thing
I'm loved. Hey, thanks for indulging us as we set aside the usual Undeceptions format this week. I hope you enjoyed hearing Rahil's story as much as I did.
Actually, Rahil will feature in a series later in the year when we talk about the similarities and differences between Christianity and the world's other major religions. He has an amazing way of comparing Krishna and Jesus, as well as some insights into what Christians could learn from Hindus. I felt quite challenged by those remarks. Look out for that.
If you've got any questions about this or other episodes, I'd love to hear them. And we'll try and answer them in our upcoming Q&A episode. You can tweet us at Undeceptions. That's pretty simple. Send us a regular old email at questions at undeceptions.com. Or if you're brave...
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and plenty more from each episode. And while I've got you, let me give a quick shout out to a sister podcast on the Eternity Podcast Network. That's Salt with Jenny Salt. If you'd like the conversation hour on the ABC, and there are plenty of others on the BBC and NPR, then you'll love Salt. Great in-depth interviews about people whose lives have been transformed by spiritual connections.
a New Ager who became a New York documentary maker, a doctor at the heart of life-renewing surgery in the heart of Africa, a man whose family saw Christianity arrive in Nepal and took it to the heights of that great country. Salt on the Eternity Podcast Network, eternitypodcasts.com.
Next episode: Confronting Christianity. That's the title of one of the best Defenses of the Christian Faith I've read in the last 10 years. So I hopped on a plane and raced over to Boston, Massachusetts to interview the author. She is quite something. See ya. Undeceptions is hosted by me, John Dixon, directed and produced by Mark Hadley, who normally provides me with lollies but hasn't today.
Our consulting producer is Kayleigh Payne. Our theme song is by Bach, arranged by me and played by the fabulous Undeceptions band. Editing is by Bryce McClellan. Head to undeceptions.com. You'll find show notes and other related stuff for our episodes. Over the coming weeks, we're transforming the undeceptions.com website into a whole library of audio, video, and printable material. Lots of different stuff from different communicators designed to undeceive and let the truth out.