When The Conspiracy Theorists Become Bureaucrats
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It's Thursday, May 29th. I'm Jane Koston, and this is What A Day, the show wondering what being trapped on a Delta flight from Minneapolis, Minnesota to Madison, Wisconsin must have been like for two pigeons. Being a bird trapped on an airplane must be profoundly confusing, is what I'm saying. On today's show, it's Pardon Palizza over at the White House. And Elon Musk says President Donald Trump's big, beautiful bill undermines the work he did at Doge. Sad.

But let's start out by talking about conspiracy theories and the people who believe them.

I've reported on conspiracy theorists and their ideas for years. And before Kash Patel, Dan Bongino, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. were prominent members of the Trump administration as director of the FBI, deputy director of the FBI, and secretary of health and human services, respectively, they were conspiracy theorists. And now the conspiracies they pushed are coming back to haunt them in the sense that their fans are very upset that now that these men are in power, they're not doing more about the conspiracies they pushed to get there.

Take Patel, who was on with Fox News' Brett Baer late Wednesday. He was asked for what feels like the millionth time to explain why he believes financier and sex offender Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide, despite for years raising questions about the case, and why government officials weren't releasing what he called the Epstein files. Patel seemed annoyed about the whole thing. But there is a lot of conspiracy theories out there. There are. The Epstein thing, you dealt with Maria, you said...

As far as you know, he killed himself. I'm telling you, he killed himself. He's telling you. Bongino is facing the same problem. Before he became Patel's deputy at the FBI, he used his podcast to repeatedly push conspiracies around Epstein's death. Now he also says the disgraced financier's death is cut and dry and his supporters are apoplectic. And then there's Kennedy.

You probably know about his long, long, long history of conspiracy theories around vaccines and autism. But maybe you didn't know about the time in 2023 he said COVID-19 was, quote, ethnically targeted to sicken black people but avoid Ashkenazi Jewish people. But now that Kennedy's got the top healthcare job in the United States government, it's not enough that he's rolling back COVID vaccine recommendations and investigating what he called the, quote, environmental toxins that he believes cause autism.

His longtime anti-vax supporters want more. Take Del Bigtree, who served as RFK Jr.'s communications director during his 2024 presidential run and is a huge anti-vaccine skeptic himself. He announced this month he's stepping down as head of Maha Action, a nonprofit that supports Kennedy's Make America Healthy Again agenda. And while Bigtree didn't outwardly criticize Kennedy...

Here's what he said on his podcast about the decision. I need to be able to sue the government, even if it's Robert Kennedy Jr. That's just how we're wired. And I recognize that Robert Kennedy Jr. and the team around him, they're in government. They are in the swamp and they have to play chess, as we've said, the 5D chess and all of it. But I am not a chess player. I am a truth teller.

Sure. But seriously, what happens when the most conspiracy-minded people in America get what they've always wanted? It turns out they're still furious, but now they're furious at the very people they used to support, like Kash Patel, Dan Pongino, and RFK Jr. Now what? So to talk about that tension, I spoke with Will Sommer. He's a senior writer at The Bulwark, and he writes the False Flag newsletter about the online community that now plays a key role running the U.S. government.

Will, welcome to What A Day. Hey, thanks for having me. So, Will, you recently wrote about how Make America Healthy Again acolytes are furious at Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Why? Sure. So there's this divide within the MAHA world, and it sort of breaks down on the kind of old school RFK fans who really like kind of made him in politics, the anti-vaccine people, and these sort of more, you know, less politically radioactive people

people who say, you know, why don't we just like clean up the food supply, have people eat more organic food, stuff like that. And the former group sees the food people as sort of a distraction, like they're on a wild goose chase. And they're concerned that RFK is focusing too much on things like getting artificial dyes out of potato chips.

Kennedy is doing a lot of what the anti-vaxxers want. You know, just this week, he severely rolled back recommendations for COVID vaccines. He's pushing new testing requirements on future vaccines. He's only had the job for a few months. What were they expecting? Yeah.

You know, it's interesting. I mean, they're very demanding. I think it's fair to say. I mean, it is truly bizarre. I mean, these situations where he has to sort of through gritted teeth give a kind of half-hearted endorsement of vaccines. In the case of there was a Texas measles outbreak after the second child there died. And he said, well, OK, the measles vaccine does stop the spread of measles. And maybe people should consider getting it. And that infuriated his fans.

And so this is kind of the upside down world that they're operating in.

Something I keep thinking about is how RFK Jr., FBI Director Kash Patel, FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino, all of these people were not just the favored voices of right-leaning conspiracy theorists, right, left-leaning if you're RFK Jr., they were conspiracy theorists themselves. So how are we seeing the expectations of their fan bases and maybe to some extent their own expectations of what they thought they'd be able to achieve working inside the government, but up against the reality of working in government?

Yeah, I mean, it's always interesting when you have these people who live in or sort of urge their fans to live in a sort of fantasy world whenever they run into reality. And, you know, we can look at right wing media with Fox claiming the election was stolen up until the Dominion settlement. Or in this case, with these guys saying all this stuff about, you know, the deep state bureaucrats running the government or vaccines or what have you. And then when they get in government and actually have some amount of responsibility, they have to say, well, maybe I shouldn't promote a measles pandemic. Yeah.

Or maybe I can't really go arrest every Democrat on the street despite claiming that previously they were in a cabal. So it's this interesting bind. And I think from my perspective, that's when things really get intriguing because they have to kind of square the circle there on their beliefs. I think a great example is the case of Jeffrey Epstein because I think his case is particularly telling. You have...

about five years of right-wing pundits telling their audiences that something big is coming that will prove the financier and sex offender was murdered and also obviously put all of their enemies in prison. And now the FBI, led by Kash Patel and Dan Bongino, the latter of which had multiple

podcast episodes about how this went all the way up to the top, who did this, so much conspiracy. And now they're all like, Epstein died by suicide. There's nothing more to it. What does that turnaround tell you? And what have you been seeing from their audiences reflecting on that?

You know, it's funny. You would think that from the audience's perspective, I mean, who could you trust to tell you the truth about Jeffrey Epstein? Well, Kash Patel and Dan Bongino. But when these guys come out and say, and I'm going to assume what they're saying is the truth since they would know, when they come out and say, you know, in Bongino's case, sort of through gritted teeth, he's very disappointed to deliver this news.

The audience is furious. For weeks now, everything he tweets, people are saying, why are you covering up for Jeffrey Epstein? And I should say, Bongino tweets a lot because he's constantly trying to mollify this audience. And so just earlier this week, he had to come out and say, okay. But he won't even quite say it's about Epstein, but it's clearly what he's referring to. He has to say, regarding the interview I did last week, I'm going to come out with some more documents that kind of get at what we're discussing.

But you see this with conspiracy theories more broadly. Why can't even these messengers, who for years their audience trusted on this, why are their claims not enough?

You know, I think the audience for right-wing media is just really used to getting what they want in terms of what people tell them. You know, we see this in the Fox Dominion case where after they're kind of living this fantasy land and then when reality hits and Fox has to say, you know, Trump lost Arizona, the audience becomes furious. And at Fox, they know they can't tell these people the truth without losing business. Or in this case, in the case of the FBI, they can't tell the truth without losing business.

they realize that they're going to lose popularity, that they're going to be targeted, they're going to be flagged as Republicans in name only if they don't go along with these conspiracy theories. But unlike RFK Jr., Bongino and Patel don't seem to be throwing their conspiracy-minded bases as much red meat as you might think. I think that when Patel got through confirmation, there definitely was a sense to me that I was like, okay, he's going to start going after people. But in a way, it's been very like,

He just wants to watch hockey. He hasn't even been offering the equivalent of beef tallow. You know, it's interesting. I think on one hand, they seem to really enjoy running the FBI. I mean, Kash Patel is doing a lot of, you know, he goes to the tactical village with the vest on and the gun. On the other hand, I think they are trying to pursue sort of conservative culture war things that are going to be easier to achieve.

after the backlash over their comments debunking the Epstein conspiracy theory, that Bongino came out and said, well, actually, though, we are going to put more resources on finding out who took cocaine into the Biden White House and who was the secret January 6th pipe bomber, with the implication that, you know, that was some kind of false flag operation. So, I mean, they're kind of trying to throw some red meat to the conspiracy theorists in ways that maybe are a little more achievable.

So something that's interesting to me is that this White House is torn between the conspiracy theories and their supporters. And I don't know, more objective reality. And I think a lot of people made the comment that watching Dan Bongino try to talk about Jeffrey Epstein was like, you know, the dog caught the car. So how do you see these tensions being exacerbated going forward? We're only four months into this administration and you already have all the conspiracy theorists who thought that this was their time. They finally achieved all of their goals.

And they're furious. You know, it's interesting. I mean, they are in many cases, they're getting a lot of things they wanted. But I think their demands were so extreme, the idea that, you know, Hillary Clinton would be imprisoned or things like that. And that is probably not going to happen. So I think that there, you know, there's gonna be new conspiracy theories. I mean, I look back to 2017 when the Trump administration was bogged down with the Mueller probe and, you know, the wall wasn't getting built. And what did they come up with? They came up with

QAnon. That was really when it kicked off and it sort of presented a world that explained why the Trump base wasn't getting what they wanted. And so I wonder if we'll see that kind of like a new sort of conspiracy theory to explain things.

So for a lot of people listening, you know, the people who deeply oppose all of this, they might just want to dismiss all of these right wing conspiracy theories and just be like, that's it. But as divorced from reality as it often is, why do you think it's so important to pay attention to this stuff right now?

Yeah, I mean, look, these are the people who are influencing the government. I mean, I agree. This stuff is often totally crazy. But at the same time, you know, Laura Loomer, one of these activists, I mean, she purged the National Security Council. I mean, these people have a lot of influence and they're able to do things like get people pardoned, to sink legislation, change government policy. And often it is kind of on the basis of what's really nonsense, but it happens anyway. And so I think that's why we have to be aware of what these people are talking about among themselves.

Will, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me. That was my conversation with Will Sommer, senior writer at The Bulwark. We'll link to his newsletter in our show notes. We'll get to more of the news in a moment, but if you like the show, make sure to subscribe, leave a five-star review on Apple Podcasts, watch us on YouTube, and share with your friends. More to come after some ads.

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Ask your vet about NexGuard Plus Choose. Here's what else we're following today. Headlines. Will you pardon the people who are accused of conspiring to kidnap Michigan Governor Gresham Whitmer? I'm going to look at it. I will take a look at it. It's been brought to my attention.

President Trump said Wednesday he watched that trial and that it looked to him, quote, like somewhat of a railroad job. But taking a look at pardoning men convicted in a plot to kidnap the governor of Michigan is just part of Trump's recent pardon palooza. According to the Justice Department, Trump pardoned a former Virginia sheriff, Scott Howard Jenkins, on Tuesday. Jenkins was convicted last year on federal fraud and bribery charges for selling deputy badges to rich businessmen. He never served a day in jail.

Also on Tuesday, Trump pardoned James Callahan, a labor union leader who pleaded guilty to failing to report gifts from an advertising firm. And on Wednesday, a White House official said Trump pardoned former Republican Representative Michael Graham of New York. He had pleaded guilty to tax fraud.

Trump swiped the pardon pen for Todd and Julie Chrisley, who are best known for starring on USA Network's Chrisley Knows Best. The couple was convicted of fraud and tax evasion. Are we sensing a pattern here? Cha-ching, cha-ching? Anything? Their daughter Savannah spoke to reporters on Wednesday outside of the Florida detention center where her father had been held. This process has been absolutely insane and I...

I'm just so grateful that I'm going to leave here with my dad. Savannah, a Trump supporter, had lobbied for her parents' release. And then there's the man who pleaded guilty to tax crimes and was pardoned in April. According to The New York Times, Paul Walzak was pardoned less than a month after his mom attended a fundraiser at Mar-a-Lago. The Times reports it was a $1 million per person fundraising dinner. If Sheriff Jenkins was a cash-for-badges scheme, perhaps we're witnessing a pay-to-pardon scheme.

White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller has reportedly demanded that immigration officials arrest 3,000 people per day amid the Trump administration's immigration crackdown. Axios says that's triple the amount of daily arrests made by ICE during the first weeks of Trump's presidency. According to an exclusive report from the outlet on Wednesday, Miller pushed the new aggressive quota last week during a tense meeting at Immigration and Customs Enforcement headquarters in D.C.,

The outlet said he, quote, yelled at senior officials over their arrest and deportation numbers. Honestly, I'd be more surprised if he didn't yell. Yelling is kind of his whole thing. Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem was also at the meeting. She echoed Miller's push for more arrests. According to data from earlier this month, ICE has nearly 49,000 people in its custody. That's way more people than the agency can afford to accommodate with its current budget.

Sources told Axios this wasn't the first time Miller has lost his cool with isolators. Some said they left last week's meeting worried they could lose their jobs if they don't meet their new quota. Again, shocking. I was like disappointed to see the massive spending bill, frankly, which increases the budget deficit, not just decrease it. And it reminds the work that the Doge team is doing. Oh, no, anything but that.

Elon Musk criticized President Trump's big, beautiful bill in a clip from an upcoming interview with CBS Sunday Morning that was released on Tuesday. I think a bill can be big or it can be beautiful. But I don't know if it can be bugged.

Trump, who's been advocating for the bill, was asked for his reaction to Musk's criticism while speaking to reporters in the Oval Office Wednesday. We will be negotiating that bill, and I'm not happy about certain aspects of it, but I'm thrilled by other aspects of it. That's the way they go. It's very big. It's the big, beautiful bill. But the beautiful is because of all of the things we have. Inspiring.

According to the Congressional Budget Office, the tax provisions of the package would increase a deficit by nearly $4 trillion over a decade. Republicans pushed the bill through the House last week. It's now in the Senate. The Kremlin has proposed that Russian and Ukrainian officials meet next week for another round of direct peace talks. Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, put out a statement Wednesday suggesting that the two sides hold more talks in Istanbul.

Delegations from Russia and Ukraine met there earlier this month. The two sides failed to reach a ceasefire agreement, but they agreed to prepare memorandums of their conditions for a peace deal. According to an exclusive report from Reuters, the Kremlin's wish list includes a promise that Western leaders will stop expanding NATO further east and lift some of their sanctions on Russia. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky told reporters Tuesday that Russia has assembled more than 50,000 troops near the northeastern Ukrainian region of Sumy.

He claimed that the Kremlin is preparing an offensive in the area to create a buffer zone. And that's the news. Before we go, hello WOD listeners and viewers. WODer Day will be live at the Cascade PBS Ideas Festival on May 31st in downtown Seattle. That's this Saturday. I'll be interviewing former senator, comedian, and Saturday Night Live writer Al Franken, and it's a conversation you are not going to want to miss.

The rest of the lineup at the festival includes guests like CNN anchor Jake Tapper, former Republican Senator Jeff Flake, Washington's own congresswoman Pramila Jayapal, plus Amanda Knox and a ton of other live podcasts like Criminal and Radiolab. If you're in the area, come see us. You can get tickets and find out more at cascadepbs.org slash festival.

That's all for today. If you like the show, make sure you subscribe, leave a review, think kind thoughts for Ohio Republicans who might be forced to choose between former Ohio State football coach Jim Trussell and former Doge guy and MAGA enthusiast Vivek Ramaswamy for governor, and tell your friends to listen.

And if you're into reading, I'm not just about how literally the only force on earth that could make me vote for an Ohio State football coach is Vivek Ramaswamy. Like, the only one. Like me, What A Day is also a nightly newsletter. Check it out and subscribe at cricket.com slash subscribe. I'm Jane Koston and Sherrod Brown. Are you busy or anything?

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