How Many Times Can I Forgive You?
01:03:14 Share

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

Support for this show comes from Amazon Prime. However you plan to make the most of the holiday season, you can do it with Amazon Prime. Whether it's last-minute ingredients and stocking stuffers or a themed puzzle to solve with the family, get fast, free delivery on holiday essentials with Prime. And with Prime Video, you can curl up on the couch, warm drinks in hand, and have a holiday movie marathon. Throughout it all, you can tune into classic holiday playlists on Amazon Music.

Whatever you're into this holiday season, from streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit amazon.com slash prime to get more out of whatever you're into. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Pay. When you've got a gift list to finish, the last thing you want to do is take out your wallet a million times. Instead, pay the Apple way. With Apple Pay, you can pay with the phone you're already holding. Just double-click, smile at Face ID, tap, and you're done.

Last May, I got a call

from someone that told me her friend had been in a relationship with my partner for two years but i had absolutely no idea and then i also found out he had a child 14 years old i had no idea about july 24th i got another call hey i've been friends with your partner and actually been sleeping with him

She's coming in on the heels of yet another revelation, of yet another affair.

after having found out that there was a 14-year-old son that she never knew about that her partner had. I mean, I'm so sad and angry. Just the level of humiliation, like feeling like so, like again, like, are you kidding me? Like, am I an idiot? Like, am I totally blind? I need somebody else to tell me if I am delusional.

She's bereft, she's in crisis, she thinks they are in crisis. There's imminent decisions to be made and there's a sense of urgency about what has just been revealed. He says none of this. I think I've always had a lot of trust issues. I'd want to work on being more vulnerable. I feel like I've been in the belt since I was 13, 14.

Just because that's kind of how I was raised. I've always had a life of hiding. Nobody knows anything about me. Because I don't trust anybody. And sometimes that gets really hard. I don't even know how to explain it. I struggle with it. And it's kind of a worry because I don't want to end with my partner.

How can you have one person talk about so many shattering revelations where the other person doesn't even mention them? It was like, what is this session going to be about? And if he doesn't mention it, can he even acknowledge it? If he can even acknowledge it, can he express any sense of remorse for it? I mean, where is he at? And

What instantly becomes clear is that as I begin to meet him, I enter a web of secrets, a veiled reality where no two pieces of his life have any contact with each other. So he keeps it all in little pockets, hidden from everywhere. Nobody knows the next person he knows.

And I have to say that this was a very intense experience for me to speak with someone who showed such a way of living as a ghost in his own life. What would you like us to do here? What would make this a useful conversation, a helpful conversation? I guess maybe clarity on some things. To understand a little bit more than I did when I got here.

And I would like more clarity on... Relationships, I guess past relationships, like how they affect my current relationship, my parents' relationship, that in turn affects my relationship. What's something specific from your family relationships that you say, that thing has gone with me? A lot of selfishness, I guess. That's a big word.

Who was the master of selfishness at home? Everybody, probably. Can you give me a sense? Yeah, my dad was on his own since he was a teenager, since he was like 14. Couldn't read or write, but he was smart. He was handy. And then my mom worked in a bank and my mother was like business. She was like high up in the bank for like a very long time. So there were like complete opposites, but...

My dad's kind of selfishness was more of, I don't want to go back to ever being poor again. So I have to like kind of hoard everything. And it doesn't matter if anybody needs something. Not like if you want something, but if you need something. My mother would have to go, you need to give me money for it so I can get school stuff. And I think in turn that I grew up a lot on my own. I had my parents. I had both my parents until I was an adult. But I did a lot of things on my own. Tell me if I hear this accurately.

I learned to take care of myself. They were there, but I was on my own. But neither did they offer me an ear to my needs. And neither did I learn how to listen to the needs of others, especially of my partner here. Yeah, and I'm sure of a lot of people. I know what I need to do, but I don't know what to do when you need something from me. Oh, yeah, correct. Or how to ask for it.

If I do need something. Right. If I need to move a sofa or something, I just try to figure it out on my own because I could probably ask somebody, but... I don't. I don't. Because? It doesn't even occur to me? I'm like, ah, they're probably busy. They're going to say no anyway, so I'm not going to... So you internalized your dad's voice. They're going to say no anyway, so why bother? They're going to say no anyway, so I'll just... I'll figure it out. Okay. So refuse help, though, too. Oh, yeah. Refuse. Yeah, I guess so. It's not... I mean...

Boy, am I refused. You just added something. Not only do you not ask for help, but you refuse it. Do you not say when you're upset or when you're mad or when you're frustrated or when you're hurt, that's part of the... You have to handle everything yourself? Yeah, I'm kind of just the same all the time. No, you're the same. She is mad like I'm not... Like I don't get excited about things. I'm just like, you know, it was okay. It was good. I don't want to get too excited about...

to come down from being excited. So if I can just kind of stay in the middle. That's an amazing strategy. So I don't let myself get too excited, neither on the positive side nor on the negative side. So I can stay in the middle and keep things in control and not get too hurt or too disappointed or too shaken out of my boots. Yeah. So you're a master compartmentalizer.

Sometimes I have to be and I guess the times when I shouldn't be, I still am. Right. That is the essence. Nobody becomes a master at something without thinking that they have a good reason. But then they make the reason everywhere and so they begin to have the same behavior even when it's not necessary. Can I ask you where are some particular places where you've compartmentalized? Where?

Which I guess that makes me just a little better at my job sometimes because I can do that. Work how so? Just work on, you know, we have dead bodies and stuff and big fires and I don't get too jacked up off it. Fire's over, fire's over. Some guy's like, "I want to be up for 15 hours now." Because the adrenaline's still going. I'm like, "It's over, it's over." Bad car accidents and stuff like that. I did it with my family.

I have an older son that was kind of a separate. I just learned about him a year ago and he's 14. So that's compartmentalized. And the other relationships you've had? Yeah, I kind of, I've always had multiple something. Nothing's ever been together. It's multiple women or multiple cars? Everything. Everything? Yeah. Work life, out of work life. We're friends, out of work friends.

Nobody knows each other. Nobody knows anything. And the multiple friends are known to her, yes? She knows some of my friends. Some of them, well then I learned these two people were both friends. They had no idea that we existed, that he had a family, none. He said not one word. So I didn't know these people existed. And they didn't know we existed. These are people I've known for years. For years. Mm-hmm. They're friends, they're lovers, they're what?

They were just friends for a very long time. And then, yeah, there was two different situations a year apart from each other. And they became lovers? Yeah, I guess that's the term. Yes. Okay.

When I start to work with couples who come in in the immediate aftermath of the crisis of an affair, I always think, how do I create a container that can hold two very, very different experiences of the same thing? And that means what he did to her and then also what it meant for him.

And this one starts to feel like it's going to be a hard one to hold because there's so much. After talking with him about his family of origin, about how he equates the challenges from his childhood as the strengths at his job, about some of the secrets that have trickled out.

I start to feel like we at least have now an agreement about some of the basic facts. And so now I want to hear from her. Thank you. That was a long intro. And I would just love to bring you into the conversation. Do you hear him often speak like that? A little bit. When I first found out about all of this, well, the first time...

And I learned about this friend and his son on the same day. And this woman is the mother of the child? No. So there is yet another person. The mother of the child was an ex from a long time ago. They got together apparently one time while we were on a break 15 years ago. How long have you been together? We met over 20 years ago, but it's been off and on for a long time.

Throughout or only in the first years? The first few years were definitely off and on and then I'm the last 14 years have been pretty steady except for it was a brief period of time maybe seven years ago or something where we were broken up for a little bit. Yeah that's right. So when that happened last year and my everything came shattering down I've learned about that he

had this other life of people he didn't talk about us at all this woman had no idea his friend thought she was friends with him for a while had no idea that we existed it was a terrible time and we had some conversations where it seemed like he was opening up we were acknowledging all the compartmentalizing and how did you find out if I may ask I got a call when I was with her family on a Sunday morning around 9 o'clock someone called me said oh my friend's been in a relationship oh and by the way do you know he has this 14 year old son

I was like, no. And then he admitted it. Well, admitted the child. We were with our children. It was horrible. And then I came home to pictures on my doorstep. She had left. She started emailing me. It was awful. Pictures of them. Yeah. To show to you that they had a relationship. Yeah. Which you did not know. No, until the day before. And she did not know about you. Right.

We went to, started going to couples therapy. Didn't really feel like it was going anywhere, but I thought we had some good conversations and I felt really, I was really in a lot of pain, but I felt like he was doing the right thing. I was not suspicious for a second until four weeks ago where I get another phone call. I just got off to work. I had a call from a number and I immediately felt like dread. Answered the phone. Hi, I'm so-and-so. I'm

I've been in a relationship for the last, you know, off and on. And I was like, wait, what? Relationship. He's my friend, but we've been sleeping together. I'm like, wait a second. We've been sleeping together? It turns out they had... When was the last time? And I found out it was the day before we went on a trip. It was just... And I immediately just had to told work I had an emergency and left. And he left work and I just got home and started screaming. So it turns out he almost immediately started doing the exact same thing. It was the same story. Another...

an unattractive single mother with probably low self-esteem who thought he was so nice and so wonderful. And then she kept calling me. And then I was like, oh, she's trying to tell me how this was a meaningful thing and this had been going on. And then she left a bunch of stuff in our driveway, pictures and cards, and it was just awful. And that was like exactly four weeks ago. Oh, wow. So you're in the thick of this. Yes. And I've already been through it. I just feel like completely...

Between numb, filled with rage, and very sad. Of course. I'm just like blown away. You could do this again, like blown away. Like I just feel like I'm with a stranger. I feel like a sense of disgust. I've never felt like last year I felt hopeful. Now I'm just like, I don't know who you are. I don't know what's going on. I'm very mad at myself.

So, for not seeing this, I'm feeling like this is insanity. Like, this behavior is so insane. Like, this is not okay. And he's, I know he feels bad, so I'm like, what is, like, something is very wrong. There's no trust, like, none. I trust him to take care of our children. I don't trust him like that again. Like, I feel like a total fool. I haven't told one person about this. I can't tell my friends. It's humiliating. I feel like we love each other very much,

I am very afraid of the future. We have to figure out, like, the kids in the house, and we really... It just doesn't feel real. It doesn't even feel like what I want. Yeah, I just feel like I'm going crazy.

All of this superposition of contradictory feelings that just come knocking at you. All, all, all normal. And there for a while. Unfortunately. That's why it's like, again, like I already was just coming out of it. And then you like. And by the way, still not about you. I believe that. I'm sorry. It makes it harder sometimes, but still not about you.

That doesn't mean that you want to live with it. Right. And I don't know what you will decide. Like, I'm scared. I really don't know who he is and what he's capable of. No. It's like, did I fall in love with like a con man? Like he just can make things up and I don't know. He can want to change, but if he can't change, then nothing's going to happen. It's going to end. It's like, am I supposed to just wait here and hope that he doesn't do it again? I don't know.

It's very important to lift the pressure that in this one session she will figure out what she wants to do with her life. A first session where things are being revealed and laid out like that, sometimes for the first time, I see my role primarily as creating a safe container for two very different experiences that are coexisting.

But also, it's about providing structure, calmness, and reassurance. You are flooded, overwhelmed, confused. There is no decision to be made in the moment. And that's okay, because she's often surrounded by people who instantly say, what are you going to do? And that is not always so helpful. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Queens. Autumn is full of unique pleasures, and one of those might very well be treating yourself to a high-quality, warm and comfortable sweater.

Quince offers Mongolian cashmere sweaters that are warm, chic and only $50. In fact, all of Quince's luxury items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Plus, Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices, using premium fabrics and finishes for that luxury feel in every piece.

I just ordered some new sweaters for this fall because my family still enjoys wearing the cashmeres that we ordered last year. So why not get some more?

And you can get cozy in Quince's high-quality wardrobe essentials as well. Go to quince.com slash Perel for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash Perel to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash Perel.

Support for this show comes from the ACLU. The ACLU knows exactly what threats a second Donald Trump term presents, and they are ready with a battle-tested playbook. The ACLU took legal action against the first Trump administration 434 times. And they will do it again to protect immigrants' rights, defend reproductive freedom, safeguard free speech, and fight for all of our fundamental rights and freedoms.

Join the ACLU today to help stop the extreme Project 2025 agenda. Learn more at aclu.org.

Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Huntress. Huntress is one of today's fastest growing cybersecurity companies. Its platform was designed from the ground up to work for small to mid-sized businesses. And it promises enterprise-grade security driven by technology, services and expertise needed to defend against today's cyber threats, all at a price that makes sense.

Today, even the least sophisticated hackers can still do a ton of damage to your small business. That's why Huntress built a fully managed, highly sophisticated security platform for its customers to guard against potentially devastating threats. Plus, you can rest assured that the people working in their 24/7 security operations center will offer real protection all day, every day.

So if you want cutting edge cybersecurity backed by experts who monitor, investigate and respond to threats with unmatched precision, you can visit Huntress.com to learn more and start your free trial. When you hear what she just said, what happens to you? How does it land on you? I try to listen. It makes me feel terrible as a person and as a partner. It makes me feel terrible. I know that I'm better than that as a person.

It sucks. It makes me feel like a loser that I can make her feel like that, that would make anybody feel like that. It makes me sad. I think sometimes it makes me a little nervous, but I think sometimes the nervousness is trying to figure out where it comes from, what it stems from.

Because most of the time you're just like, "Yeah, whatever." It's just like, you're just living life. It's not really affecting anybody. No. It's affecting... Until it does. ...quite a few people. You open their hearts. Yeah, but before that, like, you're just out. You're just living. What do you understand about the nature of your relationships with the women? I mean, what happens to you? Here you are, asking me this very poignant question. What have my family...

is lingering with me, basically influencing how I respond to the barrenness that I felt emotionally in my family. We were a practical family in which there was very little room for emotion. I learned to shut it all down, but that doesn't mean it disappears. It goes underground. I'm listening to this. It is an interesting moment.

He began to articulate his remorse and his guilt. And I began to notice his squirm, his sadness, his overwhelm. And normally, I would continue. It's okay. That's what happens when you begin to really take in the magnitude of your actions. But with him, I went to a safer place. I basically went back to his original question.

What about my family history is setting me up for the kind of behaviors that I have today and that I can't make sense of? I mean, that's, I think it was, we moved when I was 14. And we just moved. Well, me and my mother moved. But it just happened. It wasn't like, this is an explanation. So at that point, I was like, oh, yes, nobody cares what I'm going to think about this.

They divorced? They separated? They separated. We moved for six months. And then we moved back. We're like, oh, we're moving back. So I'm like, all right, I guess we're moving back. Nobody asked me anything. Meaning that your world was being toppled upside down and you had no idea what was happening. I didn't know what was happening, but we moved and I went to school the next day. That's all I knew what to do. Probably since then, I was like, ah, nobody's going to ask my opinion on anything or anything.

Why is he going to be concerned? I'm just going to figure it out. But no one ever asked, how was your day? Or is this strange? It was awful. But I would just, I guess this is what life does. So I kind of just been like a solo warrior for forever. I listened to you talk about this emotional desert. I hear you talk about the solo warrior.

How nobody asked me how was my day, or nobody said a word when they uprooted me and threw me in a whole new reality. And it's as if one didn't exist. But then you have established these relationships with women who I'm sure ask you your day and how things are. And you almost keep it on the side, secret.

cherished like a treasure chest of your own so that nobody can touch it of course you leave a group of women totally distraught and broken afterwards but in the experience it's as if you went and hidden in the back room of your life you went to create the love the tenderness the openness the

that you've been craving for your whole life, there is such a big need. It's so much more than what one person could potentially even give you, that you created this amazing stage of love. Tell me how that reaches you. I think the words make sense. I can draw a picture of it in my head. Tell me what you see.

And this will help her too, because it will help her make sense of this, that this is not just about being a con artist and a psychopath, but that actually this little boy went and created in his backyard these little universes. I suppose you ought to hang out. Tell me first what you saw. That's what I saw, a person hanging out with nothing around and then finding one thing that could fit into my hand.

I can put this in my pocket, I'm good with this. Nobody sees it, it's just there. So it's kind of like happiness and joy and things that I don't show. It's lonely in there. You get used to it. I know you did. I know you did, but let it come right now. It's lonely, but I think life is kind of lonely. It was very lonely. It was beyond lonely. In a lot of ways, yes. Because...

I always had people all around. Yes, but people who don't see you. Sometimes loneliness. I would stay in my apartment for Christmas, just me by myself. This is normal. No, it's not normal. Well, it felt normal. I know it felt. It's not normal, and it's not normal to feel so lonely with people who are right next to you, in the midst of them. When I listen to this piece in the session, I can hear...

Some people say to me, "But you are feeling bad for the bad guy. And where are her feelings? And when is he going to take responsibility for what he did to her?" And here's what was going on in my head. I need to see if he can experience some compassion.

for the child that he was and for the feelings that he had so that he can respond today for her feelings and for what she's going through. Otherwise, he can't express the remorse without instantly feeling such guilt and being such a loser and feeling so bad about himself that he can't feel bad for what he did to her.

I want you to go back to that image. I carry my secret friends in my pocket. You know, this is what kids do. Your five and a half year old may have an imaginary friend too. And you went and you created imaginary friends. Of course they're real. And they give you a smile on your face that nobody even knows where the smile comes from. You know, affairs have meanings. They exist for a reason. These kind of affairs.

right of women who come to tell you we had a whole relationship he promised things i i didn't know you existed and you became a secret friend too if everybody's secret i can't lose it nobody can take it away from me this is more trauma than calm yeah i feel like the both times like the first question i asked him last year was like did you love this person it's like

Oh, of course not. Are you crazy? Like, friend, I was not like at all like I am with you. It wasn't...

holding hands and... It wasn't. Okay. He may not, but he certainly enjoyed them loving him. Oh, absolutely. I feel like that's kind of what I thought. I mean, enjoyed is a trite word. He nourished himself on them loving him. Clearly, and that's also what feels so crazy now finding out about this number two. It's like the same kind of person. It almost feels like the same, the exact same. But they have to be mothers.

They have children. Yes, both of them are single mothers. Yes. The point is that you're not the mother. You're the partner, which is good. But there is the search for the mother, for a certain kind of motherly love. He doesn't need to love them. He needs them to love him. Why do you have to have sex with them? Like that is part of also what's so baffling is like we have sex like

Every day. So, like, you still wanted more? Like, you had to go get more sex? Like, what? Like, you had sex with someone else while we were having sex? Like, regularly? Who should think that I was doing that every day? It doesn't matter. You did it at all. But the point is, this isn't the story of two people that hadn't been connected or hadn't felt, like, attracted to each other. That's not our story. That makes me feel insecure and grossed out. You need to give her a little bit more.

meat on the bone. You can't just say, I don't need a reason and then leave it at that. Because your partner is bereft, broken inside. I just say, like she goes, you had to have that much sex. I'm like, no. No, but it's not the quantity or the frequency that matters. No, she said, why do you have sex? I mean, I...

I'm not going to say that I don't enjoy having sex. That would be a lie. No, but the question is, what was the nature of your relationships with these women? If we don't know what it means for you, she can't make sense of this. Making sense is just the beginning. It's just some basic understanding so that she doesn't go crazy. And what does it do to her is...

Did you think of her when you were leaving the house? What were you thinking when you would come back into the house? Oh, I felt awful. I felt awful every day. See, all of that she needs to know. Because when you are with other people, one of the main first things anyone would be thinking is, did you think of me? Did I still exist in your universe or did I vanish?

In one of your pockets. No, I felt like a horrible person. Tell her more. Every day. I tell you there's not enough. I woke up. I felt awful every day. In general, I felt like a bad person. But that made me feel worse because I'm not unhappy. I love our relationship and I love our family. And that made me feel even worse because it was like making the situation worse.

You're still not explaining like why sex? Like why are you going and having sex? Why did you have to fuck them? Like you were friends, why did you... why? It wasn't like on a checklist of like... No, but like what makes... like what... how do you like... Probably out having drinks. I mean having a conversation of like, hey at this time... No, that's not what I mean. What do you know about how you needed to create another secret friend? What I know about it? Yeah.

Because you lose one secret friend and on the heels of that you go and you create another. The sex is what makes it secretive. The sex is connecting. The sex is intimacy. The sex is tenderness. The sex is a lot of things that men need to call sex because they can't call it other things. So at the moment that you lose that secret,

Friend in your pocket, as you said. You basically took another friend and put her in the category emotional nurturer mom. I don't know if I was a nurturer. I don't know. Don't worry, I got to read every card. Is it that or am I off? It was definitely like there was a sweetness, like thanks for being a good friend. Like it wasn't, there wasn't the things he was saying to me.

I saw her drop her stuff off. My phone went off that someone was at our door. I'm at work and I pull up the phone and I'm just shaking. I can see her car pull into my driveway and I see her start unloading her car and I'm watching her from the doorbell, getting obviously furious. She must have printed off every picture she probably had and printed off every card.

Part of why she's making an argument, why she knows she meant so much to him is, "Look, I'll show you all the cards." So I was like, "Oh my God, this is going to be the same thing. If it's the same kind of stuff he says to me, I'm going to like really, I can't take it." Like if it's like, "I love you," and it wasn't that. It was definitely more of a French. It was like, "You're French. It means so much to me. Thanks for being there for me." It was a lot of that. Very sweet things he said.

It wasn't the same things, but I was still just like, "Why?" The Mother's Day card, the Valentine's Day card. But yeah, I think that was, she obviously wanted me to see all the evidence that this was obviously like a good friend. This was an emotional thing. And when she called me, she said, "Oh, you know, I've seen him cry a bunch of times." Like, okay, thank you for telling me, but whatever. She wants to know what is so special about these women and what does it say about her?

And I said to her earlier, it's not about you. I mean, when I imagine the scene of the women bringing those boxes with the pictures and the Mother's Day cards that he wrote to them, this is a stage. He creates this whole theater where these mothers can talk about how special this boy, now man, is and come

come to show evidence of the uniqueness of their relationship, evidence of how important he is, anything but the invisibility that he felt at home. They are exposing him. They are making it public. They are strewing it all over her driveway for her to see not how important they were,

which is a piece of it too, but also how important he was. And I start to think that that is part of why they are mothers. What he's doing there is very much a quest and a longing that he felt as a boy. And the sex becomes the language through which he can make this into an adult experience because sex

No one wants to experience the regression of feeling like that nine-year-old or that 14-year-old kid. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Autograph Collection Hotels. Autograph Collection Hotels offer over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Every hotel in this collection is inspired by a clear vision and a story that makes it individual and special.

Gessa offered unforgettable experiences that leave a lasting imprint, from practicing medieval falconry on an Irish country estate to exploring ancient Costa Rican mangroves to tasting volcanic wines on the Greek island of Santorini.

Hand-selected for their inherent craft and distinct perspectives, each hotel tells its own unique story through immersive design. Whether inspired by the horse and mule barns of Texas or the 13th century monasteries of Prague, there's something for everyone. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the unforgettable at autographcollection.com.

Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Indeed. It's natural to seek out the best possible outcomes in life, but when it comes to hiring for your business, searching might not be necessary. With Indeed, you can skip the search altogether and instead focus on matching.

Indeed is a hiring platform that attracts 350 million global visitors each month, according to their data. Their matching engine is built to help you find candidates quickly, leveraging over 140 million qualifications every day to constantly learn from your preferences.

They also let you schedule, screen, and message applicants directly on the platform. And you, listeners, can get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash Esther. Just go to Indeed.com slash Esther right now and say you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash Esther. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed.

Support for this show comes from Amazon Prime. However you plan to make the most of the holiday season, you can do it with Amazon Prime. Whether it's last-minute ingredients and stocking stuffers or a themed puzzle to solve with the family, get fast, free delivery on holiday essentials with Prime. And with Prime Video, you can curl up on the couch, warm drinks in hand, and have a holiday movie marathon. Throughout it all, you can tune into classic holiday playlists on Amazon Music.

Whatever you're into this holiday season, from streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit amazon.com slash prime to get more out of whatever you're into.

We fuss over every single detail of the show. We sort through thousands of applicants each year to pick the stories that we share with you. And the conversations that I have with couples start off as three-hour sessions. And then we thoughtfully edit them to one hour and then go back and listen to them at the notes again.

and sometimes even a critique of the session. It's kind of what is in my head as I listen to the session that I didn't say in the session. We create original music and sound design to bring the sessions to life.

Where Should We Begin involves a whole team who have been there since the beginning with me to bring my office to you. It's about eight years that we are telling the stories of raw, intimate encounter between people that you are invited to listen in like a fly on the wall. It's an expensive and quite time-consuming effort to create Where Should We Begin.

and which we gladly undertake because you tell us time and again how valuable these conversations are to you, how they accompany you in critical moments of your life, how you see yourselves even in stories that have nothing to do with yours, and how it has helped you

And that is probably the most affirming thing people can come and tell me. So now we need to ask you for more and for your help. And you can do your part not only by listening, but by joining my office hour subscription on Apple Podcasts. A subscription to Where Should We Begin gives you an ad-free version of these sessions and

and all the Esther callings. And more importantly, a way to continue the conversations with me on all the topics that come up in these sessions, from sexlessness to work conflicts, to infidelity, to secrets, to betrayals.

all sorts of relational betrayals to ending relationships. And we offer follow-ups with the couples because people always ask me, you know, "Do you see them again? Do you hear from them? Do you know where this session landed?" So I go back to the couples and I ask them for a follow-up.

which they share with us and which I then share with you. And just like our relationships, what you say isn't as important as what you do.

So I've heard you say how much you enjoy the program, how much it adds to your understanding of your own relationships. But now it's time for me to do an offer and an ask, which means click on the subscribe button to the Where Should We Begin show page. I'd love to see you in Esther's office hours. His mother had a stroke eight years ago and he was living with her, taking care of her. He did not leave. Like even once we got

pregnant with our son, I was living by myself with our son. It was so not what I wanted, but he would not leave his mother's house. He wouldn't move in with us fully until she was moved out. Once she moved, he moved in fully with us. His dad also died five months after our son was born. It was like a lot with stuff he's gone through. I mean, he was caring for his mother, like bathing his mother, like intense stuff. Did mom finally recognize you?

Did her heart ever open up or did you do all of that? No, I just did it. I know you did it. But you don't just did it, you did it... It's amazing, right? She thanked me a couple times. Listen, I'm gonna say something that you of course know as well. Some of the most deprived children are the most devoted. They got the least and they give the most.

And they try to tell you, I just did the right thing. But no, that's not what it is about. And that's part of why she comes back. Because in the midst of your doing this very hurtful behavior, she knows there is a golden heart. And she's shaking her head. So I'm getting my cues. Yeah, no, I know. But it's like, there's no time I want to go back to. Because it always felt like this was too hard. That's why I was like, I think I can't do this anymore. But...

Right now, if I understood what you said, a voice inside of you says, you should get out. But another voice inside of you says, I don't want to do that. Because we actually have an unusual, maybe, but a very deep, strong connection, a family. And I feel loved by him. And there's another voice that says, if you stay, you're weak. If you stay, you're naive. If you stay...

You will humiliate yourself. And then there's another one that says, I don't care. Maybe there is strength in staying. Maybe there is growth in staying. It goes back and forth like this. You can take her more than the hand if you want. You can come closer. That's right. Because you see, you're doing the hurtful behavior and she walks around with her own shame. How can I let this happen? How did I not see this?

And what if it happens again? And what's wrong with me that I love this person? Is he really as good as I think he is or am I completely wrong? Completely mistaken? And I'm with a compulsive liar and I think he's the kindest person. It's a mindfuck. It's a heartbreak and a mindfuck. You want to add? I also feel like, I feel like we owe our sons, like we have these two brown boys. They're like

the world to me and us like I just it breaks my heart to think like did I just create the situation for these kids that didn't have a choice like I want them to have to see a good example like love and unconditional love and he does not you can see like he's not where he he doesn't get it like I could I see it just not where he comes from like a transactional like there's a lot I feel like and he's tough

and can be short-tempered, also can be very loving with them. Like very loving and very tender and very sweet. And the older... - And where does he get that? - Where does he get that? - Mm-hmm. - I don't know. - I'm sweet. - I know you can be. I know you are. That's why I come here. I'm not gonna like... I'm not total masochist. - There is the little boy that you probably were that was very sweet and sensitive.

and in need of mom and dad. And then there is the boy that you became because that's how he adapted to his circumstances. And you've learned to live life from the place of the kid that adapted. But you've yearned in all kinds of ways to have a space to be that other person. I need a hobby.

No, I know, like I can sense that he wants to be like, he is an emotional person. Like he just, and we want to connect more. You are an emotional person. And I'm, by no means am I trying, you know, communications, like it's not easy for me either. And I want, I really wanted to work on that like with you. And I thought that's what we were doing last year. And it just like did not. We weren't. It didn't happen. And it's clear that the relationship needs to change. Yeah.

And that fundamentally, nobody here really wants to go anywhere. Neither you. But you need to find another way to bring the kindness and the tenderness and the motherliness in your life in a way that doesn't hurt and destroy your relationship and your family. To go and find what you didn't get in your family and then destroy your current family would be an irony.

It's still scary to me. It's like, then what? Okay, then what? Then if that's your coping skill is have sex with a homely-looking middle-aged woman, a single mom. I wasn't doing things to take care of my own self. So that's another thing that we've been talking about a lot. Ever since his dad died, you could see him not taking care of himself. And that was always very concerning to me. You'd stop exercising. You started drinking more. You were gaining weight. You were just not...

in a good place and I would, "Oh, do you want to go do this?" It was always, "No, no, no, no, no." Do you ever wonder if there's been a lingering depression? I know it's not something I'm over. Right. And you don't call it depression because you put yourself in shutdown mode. And if you don't feel anything, then you don't feel that you're depressed either. It's just that you're shut down.

And you say no to life and to the world. Yeah, a lot of it was, I have a lot of anger about it. About what? My dad dying. Tell me more. You were wonderful. He usually finds it easier to be angry than sad, so let him be sad. I think I was so angry because I felt so alone. And it was fast. It was like extremely fast. I had to do everything myself.

And I don't know how to get over that because I'm really angry about it. And I don't know how to change it to something else. I have to do everything myself with my dad. Meaning? Everything. But then, you know, then once he passed away, we had the memorial service and everybody was gone. So everything else was the house and selling and fixing and...

paying for everything that was a year and a half of my life that I feel like just angry about it and everything. I want everybody else to be angry now. It just made me angry. It makes me angry. It still makes me angry. Because since then no one's talked about it. No one's asked me one thing. And that was in 2019. Am I hearing you? I'm angry that I needed to take care of everything.

That nobody asks me ever how I am. That nobody asks me if I need anything. That I don't even know how to tell them if I was to need anything. That I am there taking care of people who I have so many feelings about how they didn't take care of me. It's unfair. It's lonely. It's burdensome. And you get angry in part because nobody has to ask you. You show up. You feel good about that. But underneath...

is the other side, which is that you don't know how to ask for anything. And at one point, it overflows. Yeah, it gets overwhelming. I'm there for everyone, and who's there for me? Nobody has to ask me to be there for others, and nobody offers to be there for me. And when they do, I don't know what to do with it. I reject it. Neither can I receive, and neither can I ask. That's a core issue.

And I think it's like also, of course, you were amazing to both your parents and you were there for them, like no questions asked. Also, when our oldest was an infant, when his dad got sick and I asked, do you want your dad to meet him? He said, no. His parents never met our children and his mother only met our children the day I got that call last year. She didn't know they existed either. Your children? This is layers and layers of secrets. Yeah. So the parents didn't know either. Right.

Because you didn't want to give them any pleasure? They didn't deserve it? I didn't think so. I didn't think that they deserved it. Right, you were angry at them, so you were not going to... It wasn't going to be like how her family is. My family was the same way. We didn't go around my dad's family. They were crazy, per se. They were crazy. And we went around my mom's family.

But you're angry at your parents. And at the same time, you have acted out of enormous devotion and obligation. And one thing I do know about affairs is that they are completely free choice. If there's one thing an affair never is, it's an obligation. It's a very selfish act. It's for you. And many affairs take place on the heels of illness and death.

They live in the shadow of that. It's as if you have zero control over illness and death. Then an affair becomes this very chosen, free choice, life-affirming experience. Hurtful to the one next to you. And if you want this not to happen again, the anger piece is at the core. Yeah. I don't know how to get over it. It's not like whisk it away. One doesn't just get over and let go.

You have good reasons to be angry, first of all. So the first piece is to acknowledge it, to not try to push it out of the system, to give it the room that it's been asking, but to understand what it represents. Especially because you choose mothers, and the mother piece is as important as the woman piece. So you want to ask, so then why do they have sex? Because the sex is what distinguishes the boy from the man.

That's just one thought. There's loads of reasons why these two people had sex. But in the story, you don't just want to be a little boy going to look for mommy. So in the erotic version of this plot, sex becomes the thing that turns it into an adult story. And then he can continue to say, I never need anything from anyone, which is obviously not true. They both are asking questions about the role of sex.

in his affairs. Not if there is sex, not how much, how often, but why? What does it say about her? What does it say about him? And when I describe to him the notion that it allows him to be a man and not a boy, I also think that for many people in these situations, sex allows you to have needs without being needy.

But those needs are expressed as wants, as preferences. They are eroticized and they become a kind of a concealed language because our sexual preferences often are a coded language for our deepest emotional needs.

If you want to know where their session goes from here, we followed up with them a few months after. You can look for it later this week on Esther's office hours on Apple subscriptions. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. In partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut, our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Hatton.

Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

Support for this show comes from Amazon Prime. However you plan to make the most of the holiday season, you can do it with Amazon Prime. Whether it's last-minute ingredients and stocking stuffers or a themed puzzle to solve with the family, get fast, free delivery on holiday essentials with Prime. And with Prime Video, you can curl up on the couch, warm drinks in hand, and have a holiday movie marathon. Throughout it all, you can tune into classic holiday playlists on Amazon Music.

Whatever you're into this holiday season, from streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to get more out of whatever you're into. Support for this show comes from Ocean Spray. Remember your favorite holiday parties where all your loved ones got together and shared wonderful memories and memorable food? You can have it all over again. Just add Crayon.

Make an unforgettable dessert that's a medley of sweet tartness and satisfying texture with Craisins Dried Cranberries. And for easy holiday beverages, Ocean Spray Cranberry Juice Cocktail is the ultimate drink mixer. Make a batch of hot buttered cranberry, curl up by the fire with the whole family, and enjoy some treats and soothing drinks. Hosting during the holidays can be effortless. Just add Cran. Head to your local store to buy your Ocean Spray Cranberry products for the best holiday season.