I Can Be Strong and Be Taken Care Of
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None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

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I think it's hard for me to admit that I need to be taken care of. Because that's bigger than sex, that's just like our relationship as a whole. This is a couple of two men who have been together almost two years. They recently crossed to the other side of the continent to move in together. And as things began to escalate, they began to feel more and more trapped and afraid that their relationship may not be able to sustain itself.

Really, the past year has been really strenuous on our relationship. We were wanting to get closer, but just I really didn't know how. We're an interracial gay couple, and I think the odds are stacked against us in some ways. I carry some trust and abandonment issues, and I know he carries his own fears about placing trust in a partnership.

For a long time, if they had a fight, they could make up through sex. When they began to disconnect in sex, they began to be really scared. What holds us now? For him to have sex, he has to feel emotionally connected. And for me, it's harder for me to get and give emotional connection. So we're opposite from what we require for sex.

This is a session where I focus primarily on one partner in the presence of the other who becomes the witness. I didn't know that this was going to be my choice, but I understood at one point that something about one person opening up and exploring the motives, the feelings, the struggles actually comes as a relief to the other partner. It functions to disentangle

the complex loops between them by just tracking and staying with one person at a time. I think a big issue of our relationship has been me being like, "I don't know what I want. I don't know if this is going to work." But I want it to work, and I want it to try. I think we're both a little nervous. Are you? Me too! Every time! You know, but tell me your nervousness. Let's compare our nervousness.

Yeah, I think we just both felt it on our way over here. There's a low-level fear that we're not equipped for a relationship or that we're not, you know, this isn't, we're not meant to be this. And that's layered with our history and with being queer and all the things are stacked against us. We're afraid that that's going to come to light today. And the stack includes? Our family dynamics and the homes we grew up in and

how we learn love and our experiences with love so far, our experiences with ourselves so far, you know, our own identities and like still that being worked out. So whenever he's like, you know, saying something he needs or that he's not getting, I get really defensive because I'm like holding on to the little bit that I do know because so much is like in question, I feel, you know. I don't know. Yeah. But I would like to know. I'll tell you what I just heard.

To go back to the nervousness just for a moment. For you, the nervousness is this fear in the background that maybe you're not equipped, what you call equipped for being in a relationship. And for you? I think it's similar. Yeah, I think at the core of it, the like being seen is maybe not being enough. So those are negative anticipations.

Can we just stack those against a different anticipation? What would that be? Like a positive one? You know, yes, but I don't know if the world only exists in positive and negative. And they often have a relationship with each other. The very same things that we fear may hold us back.

are also the sources of our strength, the sources of why we still are together. So I don't think we need to switch from negative to positive, but we can switch from negative to layered. Yeah? Can we do that? So what would a layer be? I think in the context of our relationship, there is a real need to be seen and to be understood

and to take the parts of me that are really not okay and kind of see past that. And I think a lot of the fights or arguments that we have... Who says fight and who says argument here? I think I say fight. I think I say fight sometimes. But I think I'm almost fighting to just...

have him see parts of me that I think can be, you know, irrational and not always nice. And like, I'm hoping that he'll still love me beyond that. So I'm afraid of that, but I also want that. That's it. That's a layer. Yeah. That's beautiful.

The very thing I fear is also the thing I long for. And the resolution of it sometimes lives in what is called acceptance. So this, for me, is your opening to this conversation. They both come in with a fair amount of self-awareness. They're basically saying, we fight, we attack, we defend, we pursue, we withdraw,

And we know that this is layered with our own childhood histories, with our family relationships. We both bring a struggle around trust and abandonment. And just that as an opening tells me that when someone does that and then says, "I fear that I'm not equipped," I want to say to them, "Give yourself a little bit more credit."

You have more self-awareness than one often hears in the first two minutes of a session. And you? I think that I often feel like I'm at war with myself, particularly with this relationship. Because ever since I was about a teenager, I really prided myself on being independent and being the source of my own strength and kind of trucking through things.

And doing that alone and then at the same time, especially since we met and started dating, desiring a companion and wanting that love and that connection and the, you know, what connection really means, what that really looks like has really scared me. And really, I fought that. I've been fighting that a lot. And it's kind of to the point where I can't differentiate if...

I just, I'm needing to learn things and get over like some humps and unlearn some things or if this isn't compatible. I can't tell the difference. And every time we get an argument or there's a disagreement, I get really defensive and I can stonewall and I'm very, very quick to say, "This isn't working. That's why this isn't working. That's why we can't be together." I'm starting to see, we're both starting to feel that like every time we argue, every time there's a fight and I go there, it's like instincts. I don't even really think, I just go there.

And after the fact, I can see it kind of chipping away at him, you know, like, and kind of at our relationship too. I can only say this isn't going to work so much for him, you know. Can I ask you something? Yes. This isn't going to work. I'm out of here. Is that something that you have experienced in your life but couldn't get out? Yeah. I mean, I think my parents. How? I had a really great example of love.

And then, like that, they switched on each other, my parents. Both my parents cheated on each other. I don't know to what extent, but I know it was severe. And when my mom cheated on my dad, my dad just lost it. Became violent, verbally, physically abusive, and I was often present for all of that. And when mom left, I left with her. Her and I got away from that situation.

What was their background? My dad's black. He was born in California and then when he was in high school, his family, they moved to Iowa. So he went from being in a very black community in LA to a very white community in Iowa. He was called the N-word every day in school and really traumatized by racism. And I didn't realize that until recently, piecing that together and how he raised us.

you know, some of the things he instilled in us. What's one connection you just made or that you recently made when you say there's a connection between how he grew up, how he was beaten down with slurs and racism and how he raised us? Yeah, just little things. Like we were never allowed to leave the house unless we're fully presentable.

We had to be twice as good at everything. Nothing was ever good enough in a lot of ways with my dad. Don't give them anything. Don't give them nothing. To finish the sentence. And I appreciate my dad for this. Don't give them anything to take away from your power, from who you are. And I appreciate that from my dad. He really instilled in us, like, you are beautiful people. You're strong people. You're smart. You're capable. He really, really did that. And that's a gift he gave us.

Because he didn't have that. I don't know why I'm so emotional. Because it's a story that brings up emotion. You're not describing to me how to cook chicken. Which I can, if you want to. I'll take you up on that too. Because there's so much there. And because at the moment you're telling me, my dad became very violent. It became so unsafe. And my mother and I had to leave.

But at the same moment as you're describing the violence of your dad, you're also describing the protection of your dad. And that's layers too. Yes. And there's never been an acknowledgement for how his pain and his anger and him letting himself go really impacted and changed the course of all of our lives. Impact our personalities and how we navigate the world. You know, my siblings and I. They started out with tremendous hope

and positivity. And they arrive two years later defeated and afraid because it was great and now every fight ends into "this ain't gonna work". One of the first things I want to do with them is invite them to create more layers rather than on and off, in and out, yay, nay. And to invite their stories to become more complex

It's not just this or that. It's this, that and something else. So when he talks about his father and he describes this man who he and his mother fled, but then he's also able to talk about how much the father became a source of pride and a source of strength for him. That is a very important layer.

especially as he's describing their relationship within the larger context of racism, of gender, and the dynamics of violence in the family. Where your mom is from? My mom is from California, too. She's Mexican heritage, Mexican background. And she was disowned by her family when she married my dad because he was black. But my mom loved him. And even her partner now, he's a black man. She's just...

She loves who she loves, you know? But my dad was a brother. You seem to love her as is too. My mom is my element on me now. She is your... She's like my light. As a mother, it's one of the most beautiful things one can hear from a son. She did. I don't know how she did what she did and like really just strengthened me. I don't want to say she protected me because she didn't protect me. And I feel like she did that intentionally.

She didn't want to shield me from the world. She wanted to prepare me for the world. She did that in a very loving way. A very powerful, rooted way. And so, you know, I really love her for that. But it was hard. My dad was a breadwinner. And my mom, she just, she didn't really work when they were together. And so when they split, she didn't have any money. My dad didn't support us at all. How old were you? I was about 12.

And I really just kind of took on protection role with my mom in a way. When my dad was physical with her, several times I ran in and pulled him off of her. She told me that the reason why she left is because they were fighting one time and he was getting physical with her and I ran in and pushed him off and she saw the look on my face and she said that she was worried that I would kill him or he would kill her if she didn't leave and how that would impact us. That was her cue to leave.

So, yeah. Did her parents support you? No. In any way when you both... No. Not at all. My dad's sister was the biggest help we had. Because when we moved out, the first two nights we slept in her car, my mom and I. And my grandparents didn't help.

But my dad's sister took us in. She had a one-bedroom apartment in L.A. And, you know, they shared the bed. I took the couch. And we stayed there for a few weeks until my mom could get a place for us. We did it. And as soon as I could work and get a job, I got a job. I've always been very fortunate with that, with great opportunities that came my way. And I was able to help support my mom from the time I was 17 until today. So...

When you say, I fear that I may not be equipped, what are the connections that you're making? I think the love that we have experienced together surpasses what I thought I would have. I think the biggest thing for me is whenever there's conflict, I push the eject button right away. And we've had a lot of conflict, and I think that's gotten in my head a lot about relationships

you know, maybe this isn't right because we have so much conflict and it kind of perpetuates the conflict because then I stonewall him and... And what happens to him then? And then he reaches for me. And then I'm like, leave me alone. I need space. I need solitude. And he's reaching because he feels disconnected. You know, he feels like I'm slipping away. And that's our two things butting up against each other.

And it's a point where I can differentiate if conflict is normal, get through it, work through it, this is a beautiful thing you have because we do have a beautiful thing. And we see that, we realize that. Or if in my head, we're not compatible or this is too much conflict or you are really better off independent and alone. You have been. You've done most of your adult life and succeeded at. What they're clear on is

He told us so much.

He says, I'm a little confused. I'm stuck because I don't know. A part of me says fighting, arguing, disagreeing is a normal part of a relationship. But a part of me doesn't really know how to deal with it. And one thing I know is I certainly don't want to repeat what happened in my house. And the last thing I want to do is do what my dad did because I promised myself I would never do what he did. So instead of exploding, I withdraw. I leave.

And when you come after me, I'm even more afraid that you're going to make me explode because I'm trying to tell you, leave me alone. Don't you get it? Leave me alone. The more he says, leave me alone, and the more you want him to not be alone because A, you care about him and you don't want him to be alone. And B, that makes you completely alone and you don't want that either. That's a great recap. Great recap, yes.

And then he is left with the, well, maybe it's not meant to be. And then it becomes, maybe this isn't meant to be. And then he goes into, maybe I'm just not meant to be in a relationship with love and all of that. Yeah. And it's a story. And the beauty about us in relationships is that you can start to write a different story. And the fact that you just told all of this

should be for you a very clear sign that you are not like your father, who has not been able to acknowledge, to make amends about that part of what he did with you. You can love him. You won't be like him. Do you know that? I'm learning that. Okay. I'm learning that. This question about, am I skilled for this? Am I equipped at this? Can I do this?

If it makes any difference, I am married for 35, 36 something years. 40 years I know the same man. And that is a question that I still have on occasion. Do not just think that it is because you're young and you start out. I think that part of what pushes us to continue to grow and to change and to look at ourselves is that very question.

How good am I to love? How lovable am I? How much does my past stay with me? I think these are fundamental questions in life that don't need to lead you to the eject button. I understood that he asks himself that question. Am I made for love? Can I be in a relationship? That the question was not just a question. It also asked,

had an envelope of self-contempt. And so I chose to tell him, you know, it's actually a beautiful question. I asked myself that question still after decades. I wanted to take the sting out of the question and turn it into a real question and not a disguised blame.

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Yeah, I mean, I guess my family background is not like nuclear. Meaning? My father passed away when I was around two. From? Lung cancer. You know, then growing up without a father was, I think, challenging because I was sort of effeminate as a kid.

And I became self-aware very quickly that that just didn't fly. And I sort of learned, you know, to the degree of like practicing how to say certain words. So I didn't like make my S's sound a certain way or just effeminate qualities that I think I knew quickly just were not okay for a boy. And that was everything from the things that I gravitated toward to just the way I

held my legs or the way I stood or ran. I just became very conscious of it, probably around seven years old. What was the milieu? It's very white. My family's Italian, Catholic, so I have a pretty large extended family and pretty macho. The town that I grew up in was very small, very white, also very Catholic. I went to a Catholic college too.

And how was your family and the extended family, what was their relationship to effeminate boys, gay boys? Those two are not one and the same. Yeah, no, it was not good. I was definitely called a faggot a bunch of times by a bunch of different family members growing up. And I just, I almost like grew to...

take that word and make it something that I could almost like use and not feel anything. Like I sort of deadened myself to the word while really making like very conscious choices about how I behaved, making sure that the things that I inherently gravitate toward were shut down and the things I was supposed to like were like turned on. And I... Such a chance.

What were you drawn to? I loved like painting and drawing. I was very artistic, but those were deemed in my family and town as like girl things. You know, I can remember like having my mom and sister try to teach me how to swing a bat. And like, they just don't care about sports. So it's kind of funny to think about, but...

But I think as I've gotten older, I've realized like it's muddled what I like and don't like. And that's hard to tell. Am I just liking this because I know I'll get approval for liking this? Or am I doing something that I genuinely care about? And it's for me. And I came out late too. I came out really at 30 years old. And how old are you now? About to be 35. I really didn't like accept myself until I was 26.

It was always this fear that that would break all of the relationships that I had. And, you know, I didn't realize I was doing sort of, you know, double duty on like ruining these relationships because they were not real, because they weren't accepting who I was, because I wasn't showing them who I was. But I wanted to keep them, so I kind of kept myself from them. So it was this kind of like just double-edged sword, I think, in relationships.

In keeping people at a distance, I felt lonely, but I was afraid to lose them if they saw who I truly was. It's so powerful and sad to hear him describe, "In order to secure my attachments, in order not to lose the people I loved, I had to not love myself. I had to lie. I had to obscure major parts of me. If I'm going to show you my authentic self, you will reject me."

And so his longing is to meet someone who will love him. And the meaning of that love is invested in accepting me for who I am, as I am. That is his dream of wholeness. When you have to hide, when you become very good at concealing, when you learn the norms, and these are intense pressures.

you know, and then you do bring them into your relationship with each other as well. If you are a relentless pursuer of harmony, of being accepted, of making sure that there is no friction, then I can imagine how rattled you become when he gets mad or there is discord or he needs to remove himself. For you, you never remove yourself. Your story is the story of fitting in.

We're each off in our own survival strategy. Yeah. So he says, this isn't meant to be. Is that the words? I don't know if this is going to work. I don't know if this is going to work. And you? What happens to you then? I get angry. I feel really unheard. So I'll go to this place of like, I wish we could just talk about what I'm bringing up as opposed to like...

It being our relationship that's now in question. And I'm articulating it like this now, but usually I pounce on that and I'm kind of like, sure, I'll throw a curse word in there somewhere. Can I hear it? It's probably like, I wish we could just fucking talk about what we're trying to talk about. And it's like that. I get sharp and kind of like talk quick and jabby and...

You know, obviously nobody wants to respond to that and I feel like that just, it almost becomes this like, who could outdo who at some point? And we start raising the stakes and then we're not even talking about the very thing that brought us into it. I didn't ask him to give me the dialogue verbatim just because I want to hear him curse.

I just often think it's such a contrast between how nice some people behave while they're talking in my office and the shitshow that I know is going on at home. And because he's in the role of the pursuer, it seems like he's the nice person who is just saying, why can't we be close? When in fact...

It's not just that the other one is stonewalling. It's that he's being attacked. So it's so important to get the energy of this conversation rather than just the words of what they say to each other. So when he goes into, can't we just fucking talk about whatever I just brought up? You go to? I think anger. I carry, I'm realizing the past few years, I carry some anger.

And receiving his anger is very hard for me. And I can connect that receiving my dad's anger, I was absolutely not. Like, it was a reflex to get away from that. So when he's angry, I like reflex to get away from that. But at the same time, his bids for connection, for some reason, compute themselves in my mind and heart that, like, who I am is not enough in this relationship. And it puts pressure on me. It makes me angry when you're, like, expecting more from me.

And I get angry in that. And he perceives that as like, okay, then I'm going to up the antics too. So now we're just having a screaming match. And, you know, now we're just pushing each other's buttons. And it often leads to me saying, fuck you. Like with such like, fuck you. Like I feel that. And only recently he's been saying that back too. Like he feels that, you know. So like we can't really, we haven't really had a normal fight yet.

That's been hard for me to just have a normal average fight that couples have because I'm always going to. What do you imagine that is, a normal fight? I don't know. I don't have a conception of it. I just know that couples fight and they stay together and they grow from it and they work it out. I would say every fight we have, I'm going to, this isn't working. That's why this isn't working. I'm going to fill out the door right now because I need to go before this turns into what it can't turn into.

We haven't been able to get past that. And he vocalizes to me that it's hard for him to bring up uncomfortable things because he's afraid that's going to go there. It's almost hard for him to approach me with things that are unsavory or that he needs. That's exactly what he said before. If I was to tell them my truth, I would lose them. So I either lie to myself in order...

to keep you or I talk the truth of myself and I lose you. And basically, in your response, you kind of show him that this is indeed what will happen. And on the other end, what's the reverse? What is being reenacted for you? I feel like I almost have like a false expectation that if we're going to be in this partnership, if we're going to be in this relationship, it needs to be refuge.

It needs to not be as hard as the rest of the world is for me. Because it feels like that. A lot of the world feels hard to me. Yes, it is. And when he's coming to me with hard stuff, I'm like... Give me a break. Yeah. This is where I'm supposed to feel safe. And it's where I have felt safe. And I feel like oftentimes, if not every time, he's bringing things up that I find uncomfortable. I'm like, I can't be safe here. I can't feel comfortable here.

And I know that's not rational, but that's the feel. That's the reaction. I haven't been able to get over it. And what is it that he brings up that evokes that for you? Wanting more of me. Wanting is usually always rooted in wanting more. Wanting more closeness. And I oftentimes feel that when he's asking for more of me, that I have to give up myself. I had a moment of choice of a number of directions I could take. There was something he said

which was there is when he gets angry with me, but then there is when he has a bid for connection, when he wants something from me. Instead of experiencing it as an invitation, he experiences it as pressure. And at that moment, I thought, oh, wow, maybe this is not all about that. There is another person here who may be

the core of some of what we're talking about, and that's mom. And because he adores mom and relies on mom and takes care of mom, it is much easier for him to talk about that. But mom is where we need to go. And I decided to continue staying primarily with him because whatever work he would do on himself would be work on the relationship.

I'm still trying to understand that. I don't fully understand why and how I get so reactive and defensive when he's asking for more and when he's wanting more connection. There's only one person who can ask that for you. That's your mom. And so when he asks, it suddenly feels like I'm maxed out. I've given everything I have to give. And you hear it as he's asking for more rather than a compliment.

He's not there to tap you, to deplete you. And it may trigger in you, some of you, you know, you adore your mother and you would do anything for her. But there is also a need to recognize the burden that this has had on you. It's had a burden. Huh? It's had a burden on me. And when he asks for something, he gets the response that maybe belongs to her. Yeah. My parents haven't been my parents since I was 12.

Children who become the parents of their parents, children who become parentified, you know, when he then says, I want more, you're thinking more of somebody I need to take care of and less of me.

On the other hand, when you say I want more, it's because you're working out the story of I'm finally coming out with my own authenticity, with who I really am. And I've dreamt my whole life that the day I will do that, there will be nothing, no barrier, no distance, no gap between me and whoever I love. Because my whole life is a space that I could never cross, filled with that unspoken, filled with that closet, with that...

I'm compromising for all of you. And when you say, I want more from your story, he hears, more caretaking? How much more can I give? And then he says, I have nothing more I want to give. And then it becomes a battle between protecting myself, protecting the relationship. As if they are at odds with each other. There's no way that you can do both. That's often how I feel, is that myself and the relationship are at odds.

And I have to like concede on one or the other. And he has the same. In order to be in a relationship, in order to maintain the relationship with people, I have to curb myself, curtail myself. Not ask for too much, not say too much, not want, you know. There's a strange resonance between these two plots. I think, you know, I really self-soothed a lot of my life.

And a lot of times when he's wanting more connection, I'm almost saying, like, can't you, like, take care of yourself in that way? I've had to do that. Yeah, I've done that. I've done that. And I feel that. I'm like, I've done that. Can't you? And this was our last fight. I was like, grow up. I told him three times, grow up, grow up. Do it, do it, do it, and grow up. And I can know that he's being vulnerable and wanting connection and not tapping, you know, but...

the feeling of that is that those haven't connected, that bridge hasn't connected yet. And it does feel sometimes like a caretaker role, you know? I feel that sometimes. Is there some of that mixed in, in the layers? Is there, I mean in some strange way, both of you have had to take care of yourself or have taken care of yourselves alone on many instances.

When you say, I want to feel closer, and he hears, take care of me. Is there some of that? I oftentimes like to talk out a lot of things. And we've talked about this both seriously and joking, that I just talk way more than he does. And I've wanted to just share in experiences that I've had that I'm like, and I don't know how to handle this. And what do you think about handling...

I don't feel like we have that frequently or as much as I would like. And so maybe I'm looking for a bit of a caretaker role in that, like to talk through things with. Yeah. But in a way, when you want to just talk things through, that's not about being taken care of. What I'm imagining, you tell me, is that if he starts to voice things out loud,

From where you come from, you first need to solve this so that this is done, so that you can go back to thinking about you. That feels okay for me when it's not about us or about me. When it's about us, for example, I want more connection. It feels as if I have to concede on myself to appease his needs. Mm-hmm.

And he's not absolute about it. I know him enough to know that he's not saying, I feel this, you need to do this. He's just saying, hey, this is how I'm feeling. But it just always turns for me into what I need to just, I just have to roll over to make you happy. And I can't do that right now. Right. How do your arguments slash fights and how does this dance that you describe, which means that after he says, I'm not going to take care of you anymore,

I can't just roll over and have your happiness be the center of my life. I've done this once before, in effect. Then you come in finally and you say, well, then I won't ask for anything. So that's kind of the last move in this dance. And how does all of this affect your sexual relationship? Does it? For sure. I mean...

He's definitely more emotional with sex. He what? He's more emotional with sex. What does that mean? If he's not feeling connected to me, he's not very into it. It might not happen, you know? And I'm a little more less emotional about it. Because for me, I think having sex with my partner is like a way that I connect. Linking our bodies in that way really makes me feel connected to you and feel human and feel alive and seen. I wonder...

If there's something in this, that love for you is sometimes experienced with a burden. Love comes with responsibility. Love comes with caretaking. Love comes with the worry about the well-being of the other person. Yes? Yes.

And sex becomes the place where you don't have to take care of anybody. You can feel free. He actually takes care of you. Sex is the place for love without a burden or connection without responsibility. And a bit of a reward for the work. Right. Especially in art and, you know, the dynamics of our sex. You know, just the roles that we play in the bedroom.

you know, he takes care of me. I thought so, yes. And he enjoys that. And we've learned that about each other, you know, so it's not like, I don't think either of us feel burdened in that. But if that's the case, I would invite you to no longer think that his sex is emotional and he needs connection and your sex is not.

The desire to experience love without burden and responsibility and worry is a deep emotion. This is a part of how you see yourself. My sex is energetic. I can have sex without connection. No. What you're describing is a different kind of connection. But it is equally emotional. It is equally deep. It is equally, you know, intricate.

Partly because of the relationship that you had with your mom, which is love with a deep sense of responsibility and burden and worry and anxiety. And sex becomes the place that's free from all of that. And that is not just a sexual need. That is the deep emotional need that is conveyed through sex. So it's not he needs to love and have sex and you need sex and it has not much to do with love.

Not at all. If there's one thing I would love you to take with you from this conversation, this is one. I haven't really thought of it like that before. Because I think how I have approached sex is parallel to how I approach the relationship too, which is, I want it, but I don't, I'm okay without it. I'll be fine without it, you know. It's really beautiful how you manage to ask in sex without realizing that you're asking.

Sex is a great subterfuge for our deepest emotional needs. Yeah, that's probably why I love it so much. Here we go. You may remain responsible and in a caretaking role. There's a different economic reality. There's a different racial reality. There's a different family reality. There's lots of other pieces we can't really address in detail today. But you can make room for you.

And that is something that only you will do. And come to your boyfriend with your needs rather than hold this idea that I'm fine alone, I don't need it, I'm strong. That's yours to undo. I can be strong and be taken care of. And not just imagine I like sex a lot. As if it's sex I like a lot. Which you may like a lot too. But there is that other hidden...

And not to imagine that when he says, I want something, he instantly is asking you to set up a welfare system of two. And it will directly affect him because A, he's very wonderful at taking care of you and he doesn't really get enough opportunity. And B, he won't feel that every time he just wants to talk, he's being shut down because you're having a panic attack of emotional overwhelm.

So if he says, I want to feel more connected, you tell me, tell me how so. Bring it on. Love it. It's a compliment rather than more work. Yeah. Yeah. That's a different lens for sure that I haven't tried on. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks very much. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity and the State of Affairs and also the host of the podcast, How's Work?

To apply with your partner for a session for the podcast or for show notes on each episode, go to whereshouldwebegin.esterperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise for Gimlet and Esther Perel Productions. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, and Julia Knatt.

Recorded by Noriko Okabe. Kristen Muller is our engineer. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We would also like to thank Lydia Polgreen, Colin Campbell, Clara Sankey, Ian Kerner, Alma, Courtney Hamilton, Nick Oxenhorn, and Jack Saul.