Leaving the Shame Behind
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What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel.

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. We just got married like three and a half years ago. But I feel like we've been married 40 years, you know, just with the number of things that have happened to us.

This couple is in their early 30s, and yet they have already experienced so much. They've been hit with a car accident on his side, a benign brain tumor on her side. And then he had massive heart failure and he died. He ended up being in a coma for eight weeks. One of the consequences is that it has left him with a slurred speech and a limited mobility.

You know, I can't walk to the park without getting winded and they just feel less useful than they used to be, you know. I can't do what I used to do.

And in addition to the many health crises that they have undergone, they also are weathering the vicissitudes of the everyday life, raising their two-year-old child as well as her two children from a previous relationship. He being unemployed and she being over-functioning.

No, she's out working all the time, and I'm the one taking care of the two-year-old at home. I've never been the most patient father in the world. She's just looking for someone to blame, and I think a lot of the times that I'm the one who gets burnt at that. As much as we fight sometimes, like, God, she's just too smart and good, and I do just love her too much. I don't know. I love him so much, but...

He's got some good weapons in his arsenal when it comes to emotional hurt. This is Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel.

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It's a question everyone has asked at some point in their lives. Now what? And on The Prop G Show, we're finally going to try to answer it. We're running a special series right now where I'll answer listener-submitted questions about the best way to further their careers and how to position themselves for success as they consider the next step in their professional journey.

It's time to look to the future and stop worrying about the past. So tune in Wednesdays to the PropGPod for these special Q&A episodes sponsored by Canva. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts. Give me the loop in your head when you start bitching at life, when you feel like life gave you a raw deal. I don't know. It's mostly just like no one's listening to me. Like nothing's working out the way I planned, you know?

Everything's been messed up, you know. Say more. Sometimes there's just too many bad things that have happened in a row and I just can't seem to forget about them sometimes. What do you focus on? Oh, just how crappy I feel. How much it hurts to do lots of things. Just how different I feel just as a person from when this happened.

Because you feel more vulnerable, because you feel more fragile, or because you physically hurt as well? Actually all of those, really. I used to always say I was invincible, and at the same time I saw that I'm not completely invincible. So it's kind of one of those weird things. And you say what? Life is over? You say nothing means anything?

You say I'm worthless, you say what? Yeah, those are, yeah, a lot of those things. I seem to be worthless, I'm not doing anything like I wanted to do. Okay, where are your friends? I don't have any. Where have they gone? Moved far away or just don't exist anymore. And you? Do you have friends? Yeah, I mean, I have friends, yeah.

It was kind of odd, like when we met, I didn't really have a lot of friends and he had a friend group from high school and most of that friend group has disseminated and they moved away and we just don't really talk to them very much anymore. It's just recently, like in the past couple of years that I've

made more friends and felt more comfortable in my own skin, I think. A lot of these people I didn't even meet until after he was sick. And I think... Did you meet people through this whole ordeal? No, not really. It's kind of odd because he's so young. There is a community of people who have gone through heart issues and things, but they're also very much older than us. But it doesn't have to be the same condition. It just has to be... There are a lot of young people

people who are hit with a major health crisis in all these situations their life has changed overnight. He's never really been open to therapy or group you know kind of thing. But I wasn't even thinking just therapeutically I'm thinking you are isolated and that is compounding everything else.

Oh, yeah. You're isolated and, you know, you need people. So I'm asking about friends. I also want to ask about family. Where is the family? Is there other people around you? Oh, yeah. My parents, you know, my parents live close to us. And how are they involved?

Oh, they help with the kids and they've come over and help me all the time. They invite us over for dinner and they're very involved. In a good way? Yes. I love them very much. In fact, my mom's watching the kids right now. Right now. And my aunt. Are there people your age in your family? I'm completely different from any of those people, you know, and it's just like I'm...

the only one that's married and a homeowner and has kids that they even know. Like literally it's just I'm very different from the rest of my family. I don't think you need to disparage them that way but they are a lot younger than him and not in the same place in life I wouldn't say. Where is your family?

Gosh. My parents got divorced when I was an adult. So and then my dad remarried to the woman that he was having an affair with. So it was very complicated situation there. And then

My middle brother is a heroin addict that my mother enables quite a bit and it's been a very problematic situation for us to overcome. So I don't really have a lot of contact with any of my family members. My defense mechanism is I just don't invest. But there's not any support there. Not really. You have siblings? Yes. He has a brother. I've got one brother. And where is he? In Atlanta.

They're not close. They haven't been close since. His brother moved out of the state as soon as he graduated from high school and hasn't returned, so they've not had a... And your dad drinks? No. No. No, his dad's been sober for what, like 40 years or something? Yeah. Ridiculously long time. Yeah, something like that. 35, 40 years. And you? Oh yeah, I still drink. Yeah, too much. Says who? Me.

- It says her. - It says me. Well, I think, I don't know. - Let me check, let me check. - Sometimes. - Tell her how much you really drink, be honest. Be honest. - Well, I don't drink like I used to, that's for sure. - Yeah, but you still? - I still drink four times, four or five times a week. - How much? - Three to four drinks. - Four or five times a week, three or four drinks. I think that's too much.

It's just I want to relax and, you know, feel like I'm young again, you know? What other things do you do to feel young still? I don't know. You play video games. That's about it. Yeah, I play video games. Yeah. Wait, wait, let me ask him. Sorry. It's okay. I shouldn't answer. I do that a lot. Yes, you do. I'm sorry. That's about all I do nowadays is pretty much play video games and that's about it.

One of the things that I notice at this moment is that for all the months that he was in the coma and completely incapacitated, she had to take over so much that at this point, even when he's perfectly capable of answering a question by himself, she still feels that he needs her help. And one of the things that needs to happen is for her to know where her over-functioning is needed.

and where it no longer is necessary. And so I will try to help her step back in the areas where at least he can step forward. And what else? What did you used to do? I used to finish an eight-hour day on my feet and then go play 18 holes, and then come home and make dinner. And that was like a Wednesday for me. And now it's like,

I pretty much just chase around the kid and you know, I don't really do that much. You know, walk the kid to the park. That's about all I really do. And is she in nursery school? No. And why not? Because I do it and it's just too expensive right now. We don't have any money for it, so.

With my younger children, they went to daycare by her age because we were at work. And so they got that exposure that they needed to the schooling and things. And she hasn't had that. So that was one of the things that he knows I really feel strongly that it's almost time to get her into a class a few times a week at least. One minute we're dealing with basic everyday life.

parenting issues, discipline issues, money issues, and then the next minute we've just gone through brain tumors and heart attacks and comas and death and resurrections, resuscitations, whichever way you want to call it. And this is not a normal situation, but it is a situation where two people are trying to normalize

and to resume life with a sense of future and a sense of hope and a different awareness, definitely a different awareness. And that awareness can either become the source of great zeal. Life is short. I don't know what can happen tomorrow. I am going to take it with full force or I don't know what's going to happen. So what's the point? I

sense that you go back and forth between two extremes. One minute you think I can do everything I used to do, which is not true. And the next minute you think there is nothing more you can do. And that's not true either. Yeah, that's the way I see it. So we need to think about how you create something that is more real, but also more hopeful.

You were two people who felt very early on that you were going to do better than the people around you. Yeah, that was the plan. And there is no reason that that can't be there right now. Yeah. You may not do what you used to do, but you will do other things. Being thwarted on your course happens to a lot of people. You know, people who play their instrument their whole life and suddenly they can't play.

People who danced and suddenly they can't dance. You actually could cook. It's not like you can't cook. You can't be a chef in a very intense, stressful situation. But your craft, you can still apply. Maybe you can't build homes because I think you probably were a very good handyman too. Yeah? But there are plenty of talents you may not even know that you have because you're a talented guy.

Yeah. Do you know that? Sometimes I forget about it. That's right. That's right. You don't feel any of it enough at this moment. But in part because you're not doing enough. You understand? The world you live in is too small for you. Yeah. I definitely agree with that. So give me a sense of what are the things around you that you could do tomorrow morning that don't only have to do with work, by the way. Yeah. Tomorrow I just want to

Hang out with my daughter. Take her to do whatever she wants. But the thing is, that is part of the narrow world. Yep. Because now your daughter becomes your entire source of pride and identity. Yeah. She's only two. Oh, she's perfect, though. I know. I'm sure she'll stay that way forever. No. It's a burden on her shoulders. Yeah, she doesn't need to be. To make her father's life worthy.

to make him feel that he still is useful. It's a big burden on your daughter. Yeah. So we need to add something. You need other interests, drinking, gaming, and childcare. Not enough. Well... Not enough. So you telling him all the time that is only going to become...

An argument where he can say no to you because that now becomes a source of some power and some say and some autonomy. So resisting you becomes your new force. That sucks. Yeah, for both of us. For both of you. I'm glad you know that. Opposition becomes autonomy. Yeah.

It's very important when you are in front of someone who is facing so much loss, loss of what they had envisioned for themselves, loss of their capacity physically and mentally, to not become the generator who is constantly trying to ignite him and push him, but just give him enough so that he can begin to push himself. It's like a car that you try to first put in neutral

take off the brakes and then push it just enough and hopefully down a hill so that it can catch some speed and then begin to ride back on its own. And that's where I'm trying to position myself in relation to him at this moment. And we're going to have to write a new story. Yeah. With new things you want to do. If it's immediately not the way I used to,

Then you're basically giving me a story of mourning. Yeah. The man I thought I was, the man I knew, the man who is no more. And we're going to need to mourn pieces of him and welcome a new guy. Because there's somebody here that's in front of me that's quite alive. Yeah. I think. Yeah? All right. Is he around? We got him? There he is. Sometimes. Are you willing to welcome the new guy?

Do you want to do me? I already have a new you I mean You think you're that you're not the same person? I'm not either. How could we be after that? That's that's the thing I think you are dwelling so much on what you wanted to be you're not Thinking about what you can be or what you should be now. Yeah, are we? Willing to welcome these new people. I mean I've had a hard time with it because I

Sometimes I just feel like I'm right back at the beginning of it, you know, like something will happen that will make me

regress back to being so scared and that, you know, I always was anxious. I had anxiety before this happened and it was like the worst possible thing to have happen that this thing that you shouldn't really have to worry about that really, you know, anytime I had those kind of crazy thought processes, I would try to rein them back in and be like, that's not likely. That's something that we need to not worry about. And then it actually happens to you. It makes it a lot harder to tell yourself that's, you know, not going to happen because it already did happen. Mm hmm.

has been difficult. And so I don't like the person that I am now sometimes because I feel the weight of that. It is totally understandable, but what you do with that will make all the difference. You can say, "I learned something about the fragility and therefore I'm much more caring, careful, attentive, grateful,

There's lots of good things that come out of that as well. I'm not trying to make it rosy, you know? But it's a different awareness of life and of us as human beings. Or you can go into the poor me. People are continuously having to choose when things hit us. We can't choose what will hit us, but we will choose what we do with it and the meaning that we give to it.

And you may not be able to do all of it alone. You need help, you know, and it can't all be her because she has her own. And you're going to go to places that give you free help or very low-pay help. Get the support you need because you're not continuing as is. I'm not sure if therapy is where he will go, but I wanted him to know that therapy is available for him should he want to go.

and that there is very good treatment out there that doesn't cost much or even anything. But in addition, what I really wanted to emphasize to him is what my friend Susanna Fox has often called, just in time, someone like me. That there is nothing that can replace the support of others who have gone or are going through some of what we are struggling with at this time.

Social isolation compounds all his physical or mental limitations more than any other factor. We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astaire's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts.

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That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash begin to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Queens dot com slash begin. It feels like you've, you know, given up a little bit. Yeah, well, I have. You don't have to. That's the whole point. You can't because you're too young. That's not a reason. Yeah. That's not a reason. That's not a good motivator. No, he's got too much talent. And you have so many people that love you.

That's another great one. Yeah. The boys and me, they love you. They look up to you. Yeah. That's right. I know, but a lot of the time, I think you take your frustration and you turn it into finding things that they've done wrong. And they look up to you. They love you so much. And I don't think you realize that it hurts them. Like, I can take it because I'm an adult, you know? Yeah. But they're little. They need you to be giving to them, not, you know...

When you say, "Yeah," it means I hear you, I agree with you, or just keep on talking? Oh, I agree with her. Really? Yeah. Really, really, though? Yeah, really. I didn't think that you even knew how cruel you've been, you know? Or how much you've let your frustration leech onto them. What do you know? Yeah, sometimes they're catching up on my frustration. You're letting it out on them.

Do you apologize afterwards? No. No. How come? Because I feel embarrassed. I don't want to lose my authority. I don't want to feel like I make any mistakes, even if I do. If you explode and you tell them, I'm sorry, that was not about you, you don't lose your authority. You don't appear weak. You teach your boys self-awareness. You teach them patience.

sense of responsibility about how they affect others. You teach them humility. You teach them that true strength is the ability to say I'm sorry and you're not weaker because of it. That makes sense. Maybe a much better way of dealing with it. Do you understand? And I think you have it in you, by the way. The idea that

It would show me as weak because I'm too embarrassed because I'm actually feeling ashamed. Turn the shame into guilt. Guilt is conscience. Shame is hiding. Kids, that wasn't about you. I'm sorry. I could have done this better. And your boys will melt in your hands. And they'll look up to you. And you will feel better. That's a thing for tomorrow morning. Can you hear yourself say it? Yeah. Show me.

Shut the door, kids! I'm sorry. You know, I'm just having a rough morning. You kids have a good day at school. That might actually be a prediction of exactly the way it happens. And you could even go a step further. Some days I feel very frustrated. It's been hard for me. And I know that I take it out on you. And I want you to know that I know. Can you imagine that one? Yeah. They need to hear that, you know. Yeah.

But I am looking at him because if you're going to tell him, then he's going to feel undermined again. So you can't go home and say, Esther said. I know. Simon said. Can I get that in writing? Yes. Yes. But yours need to be in writing too. Yeah. So tell her what you're prepared to put in writing. And then she'll put hers in writing. Like, I'm sorry, honey.

You know, it's been a terrible time since I got sick and I've just been so angry at everything. Angry at the fact I can't talk, angry at the fact I can't move, angry at everything. You've been the one person there for me and I'm sorry I've taken all that anger out on you. Because I shouldn't have been the one person that's been there for me constantly. And I love you. And it's not about you, okay? Anger has nothing to do with you, okay?

It has to do with me. I'm sorry, I love you. You know I do. I know you do. I know you do. You love me too much. There's no such thing as too much loving your wife, though. Well, it's debatable. And now bring the boys in there. It's just, you guys know it's been rough. I do. It's been terrible. It's been hard for you, it's been hard for me. And you know what? Sorry I've taken a lot of it out on you. You know I love you.

You know, I want things to be great, so let's try to make things great. Can I tweak a bit? Yeah. It's great what you're doing, but I'm going to tweak it a bit. But when you say to them, you know I love you, I would probably say, I can imagine that when I behave the way I do, you wonder if I love you. Or I can imagine that when I yell at you the way I do, you probably don't feel anything love from me. Because at some point, you will have convinced them that you don't love them.

if you keep doing what you do, and then they will become defiant. And then they will talk back to you. And then you will feel more humiliated. And then you will act worse. And then you will hide it more because you will feel even more embarrassed about being in a way that has nothing to do with who you are. So you tell them, "I would like to change this. I'm going to work on this. I'm making a commitment."

I know that it's not going to change necessarily overnight, but I'm going to make a real attempt changing this. You don't deserve this and neither do I. I see you try. I see how you can be with them sometimes. They love you when you're like that. They want your love so much. You can give it to them and they'll take it. It's definitely not too late. You know, that's the whole thing I really wanted to come here for. Because I've thought about leaving because

I can't keep watching you do what you do to them. For me, I would never leave because I love you so much. The thing that I struggle with is I love them too. Am I being a good parent if I let it go on? And I know that the answer is I'm not, that I need to. So I just desperately want you to work harder on it. And they want it too. We all want it. We all want to be

Yeah. And we all are trying our best for you and for ourselves. How bad does it get? Hmm? How bad does it get? Really bad. I would say really bad. You can be really mean. You can say really terrible, terrible things to them and to me when you're angry. Yeah. They believe that you think they're stupid and that you think they're dumb and lazy. They believe that.

because that's what they hear from you when you're mad. And even when you're not that angry, just when you want them to come high, you pull those weapons out, sometimes really prematurely. And this is different from before? I would say it is a lot more frequent now. A lot more. We know that people who feel disempowered in the world outside often will take their repressed anger and act it out at home.

But I also know that for him, it isn't just a response to the disempowerment that he has felt post-illness. I also think that this is something that has a longer history and that doesn't relate to the immediate crisis that just occurred. There's a bigger legacy that is at the heart of the way that he explodes with his children.

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Where did you learn this? I don't know. And who did this to you? Really? Yeah. Really? Your dad did? I mean, your dad did. Your dad did. He does, he is the same kind of way. He's got a short fuse and he can say crazy things when he's mad too. Not as crazy as you, but... And what was that like when you were the child?

I don't have fun. - Meaning? - But I also wanted to not mess up. - You wanted his approval? - I wanted to be better at everything. I don't know. - Really? - Yeah. - I think we both agree that by the time you were a teenager, you were rebelling pretty hard. - Yeah? - Yeah. So I don't think that it made you want to be better. I'm truth checking you a little bit on that because-- - And now that she did a bit of a corrective, why don't you tell me? - I don't know. - What was it like?

To have him shame you, humiliate you, and confuse your behavior with your personality and character assassinate you. I mean, he was harsh, he was strict, he was mad, but it's not... You thought you deserved it. Well, especially now that I'm older, I realize I probably did deserve it because I was being a little shit sometimes. You know, sneaking out of the house, there's a lot of things that I did

that I look back on and go, "God, I was a terrible little kid." But when she says, "This will be a deal breaker for me," what happens to you? I don't want to think about that because it's-- she knows that I try, you know. No, but now she won't know that you try because you've just told her that you actually think it's the right way to be. They're just-- they don't deserve it.

and not because I am being too lenient. And I agree with you that I will pay more attention than I've been trying to do that. Or that there's no punishment and we just let it go. Well, the problem is we don't agree on what requires punishment and what just needs redirection. I redirect them to get back on task, but he wants to punish them for not doing the task.

Or something like that, don't you think? Or talking back to you. If you call them names, you're teaching them to talk back. It's not your intention, but they're learning from you like you learned from your dad. And then you may have one kid who does what you did, which was I'll outdo you so that you can never have a bad word to say about me. I'll become perfect. I'll become stronger, better, smarter. I'll show you. Yeah. That was you.

And then you have another sibling who basically gets the hell out of there as fast as possible. And probably barely comes back. And she doesn't want that for her two boys. I've made that exact same statement when you tell me that you turned out okay, I say. You turned out okay because you were pushed by the anger toward your dad, as in, I'll show you. But not before self-destructing pretty good first, too.

I don't know, I just like, I did drugs when I was younger and things and that, you know. Did nothing for a couple of years when I was like 18, 19, you know. And then I quit doing all that stuff and then went back to normal work and stuff like that. That's about it. So you have the experience of turning things around? Yeah, yes. You've done it already once? Yep. Good.

And what did you do? One day you just said enough of this shit? Yeah, it was basically it. Felt like shit, I looked like shit. I was tired of, you know, feeling terrible. Like now? Yeah. Like now? Okay, very similar, actually. More similar than I'd probably like to admit. Yep. Did it ever occur to you that this is so similar? No. One was self-induced and one is...

Not self-induced and doesn't seem like I can change. The accident is not self-induced. But the state that you're in right now is. I don't know that I would call it self-induced, but it is self-generated. Yes. That's very interesting because you actually have a real precedent. I know how to do this. Yeah? So how bad do I have to feel? Pretty bad. Or do you need to really feel like she's at the door? I hope not.

Do you know that she is? Did you hear her say it just now? That was the first time? No. No. But generally she says it in the middle of a fit. Yeah. And now she said it to you very calmly and very caringly. Yeah. I don't want to leave you. That's not what I want. That's why we're here. That's why I'm still here. Yeah. But I don't want what's going on in our house to continue either.

And I think a lot of the time you say things like, "Whose side are you on?" And you try to pit it like it's you versus the kids and whose side are you on? And I don't want to be on any side. I want to be together and do it together. But we've talked about so many times there are certain behaviors that you do that I can't get behind. And then we're stuck.

- Yeah. - You feel like I'm not supporting you, and I feel like you are doing something so terrible to the children that I can't support it. - Yeah. Sometimes I ask for help and I don't feel like I get it. I ask for what do you want to do? What do you think we should do different? And it's...

oftentimes like, well, let's just let it go. It's just redirect. And it's like, well, this is the 10th time this has been a problem. Like, we can't just keep doing all we need. Because your problem is not a discipline issue. Your issue is to be more loving to those kids. Yeah. There's a lack of care, and so you're trying to compensate with control. Do you really mean yeah, I guess, is my question. No, no, I understand that. Do you? Yeah.

Look, this is a very common problem. Yes. And a piece of this is unrelated to what happened to you. It's just that you feel worse about yourself, so you dump more. But the method was in place before because the method is the one that you grew up with. Any boy who was put down and shamed by his dad...

and who then used it as a source of defiant energy, I'll show you, has this weird belief that it actually was the right tactic. It strengthened me. It made me a man. You actually think that it's the way to go. And it's a way with some known outcomes, with a classic debate between the partners, with which one becomes the overindulgent and one becomes the overcontrolling.

And every time you become over controlling, she will be in your mind overindulgent because she will think that she has to soften the blows. And every time you will become more tough than you actually are because you think that she's turning them into mush. And you are going to toughen them up and make a man and she's just like sissying them up. And the whole thing is one big gender mindfuck. So you can reverse roles for a while. You're going to take the responsibility of limit setting.

and you're going to take the responsibility of showing love. All right. But you will not look at how well she's setting the limits. You will look at how well you are expressing your love, your joy for them, your fondness for them, your appreciation for them in your life, your belief in them, your trust in them. That's going to be your focus. And only that. Because you are totally skewed to the other side.

Each of you has taken on one side. You both need both for that matter. The fact is your system doesn't work. The system that doesn't work is the system in which parents become polarized. Each one thinking that they need to do what they do in order to compensate for what's missing in the other person's approach.

But also the system that doesn't work is his hoping to gain control by losing control. That is always an ineffective system.

But what I'm also doing, more importantly, is I'm grounding them into something that can happen and change tomorrow morning. That is back into the everyday and for which he can do something right away. Both of them. And that is a very big shift away from the self-absorption around his change and his losses and his mornings into the who can you be right now. Are you going to sleep?

and you're going to go back on track. You just remember, I'm on a different path here. My goal at this point, I've done a few years of just discipline. At this point, I'm turning into brats, and the more bratty they become, and the more I'm going to want to squish them, and the more I'm going to squish them, and the more they're going to resist me, and it's not going to be good, because I actually would like to connect with these kids, and I'm going to end up not. But before that all happens, she'll be gone.

because she has a great pride in who she is as a mother. You know? Yes. And that will come before you. That self-love is going to be more important than how much she loves you. That she's very clear on, and I respect that a great deal. Yeah. So to apologize, there's nothing weak about it. Whoever apologizes first is always the stronger one. A few weeks later, we received a letter from the woman

that there had been another major incident and at this time she knew she had reached the limit. She was clear, she was grounded. She loved this man, but she was not going to put her children at risk. Within 15 minutes, she packed up the stuff, she left him, she went with the children to a hotel and sought a safe haven.

But while it took her only 15 minutes to take her children and leave the house, it will take much longer for the remnants of abuse to heal. You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.