Sex, Comedy and Context: A Live Conversation with Trevor Noah
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What you're about to hear is a conversation between Esther Perel and Trevor Noah. It was recorded in front of a live audience at South by Southwest on the Vox Media podcast stage. Good morning, everyone. Hello. Hi, Trevor. Hi, Esther. How are you? We're going to be talking about stage fright later, but I have a lot of stage fright right now. I think they're going to come adjust your microphone in a second. Yep. See, I'm sitting with a pro.

You hear how I sound. I do. I mean, this is what I do all the time. So I have an intimate relationship with microphones and speakers. Okay, I help people have intimate relationships with people. You should try it out. Episode of Where Should We Begin is very different for me because you are a guest. We are going to be in conversation today.

And I thought, why talk with a comedian? And I often think that comedians are prophets who speak the unspoken, skewer the prejudices, highlight the hypocrisies. And particularly at this moment in time, to talk about the use of humor, the role of humor, is a conversation that I was very much looking forward to. Why did you accept to talk to me? Um...

Because I wanted a free therapy session and I wanted to do it in front of strangers. That's hot.

I've always loved learning from you. You know, we always have wonderful conversations whenever we speak. And I always feel that every discipline, whether it's an art or otherwise,

can contribute or touches other disciplines in some way, shape or form. So when I speak to an art historian, you know, to our conversation earlier, I learn something about comedy from it. If I speak to, you know, a linguist, I learn something about comedy from it. And it doesn't even have to apply to comedy, but I just find anyone who spends a lot of time in their field has learned certain things that are applicable to almost any field and any space. And so

I don't think you can talk about comedy without talking about psychology. I don't think you can talk about comedy or the relationship comedians have with an audience without thinking like a therapist. And so I thought, what better conversation to have than with somebody who I think is at the top of their field about comedy and then everything that's not comedy and then where do the two overlap? I thought, why not? So, you know, comedy, laughter, humor...

It's always been a part of the cultural and political landscape, right? The gladiators in Rome, before they went to their last fight, they did graffitis with funny stories. That blows my mind. But there is another one. Did they do this on the walls? Yes, on the walls. So they would etch? They would etch. They would etch imagery and statements that basically...

highlighted what I think is one of the things that we don't often think about when we talk about humor, which is that it is our ultimate freedom. We decide the perspective that we will take on something.

It's the French philosopher Bergson who really wrote a lot about humor, spoke about it as the ultimate freedom. And Boccaccio wrote the Decameron during the Black Plague. And he has all these storytellers. It's like in the midst of darkness, in the midst of hell, there is laughter. Yes. So I wanted to ask you.

So how does that sentence speak to you? And what do you see is the role of humor? We have wars right now. We have Israel, Palestine. We have Ukraine. We have Sudan. We have the climate crisis. I mean, we have a lot of things to cry about. And you make us laugh about them. Well, I think, you know, it's interesting that you say you can create your reality because I think laughter is strange in that...

If we think of all the emotions that we're able to express or feel, one of the things about laughter that's particularly interesting to me is it's one of the few emotions that robs your pain of its power.

Yes. Do you know what I mean? Yes. So if somebody's doing something terrible to you and you cry, in many ways it gives them power. If you get angry, in many ways it gives them power. If you get whatever it is, a wide range of reactions and emotions, it gives them power. But if you laugh, it's strange. Laughter is strange. I remember watching movies when I was a child and I would see the villain in a movie get caught and then getting punched or something.

And then there would always be that scene, you know, it would be Joker or someone. They'd start laughing at Batman while Batman's punching them. And the Joker's there like... And this person's getting punched. And all of a sudden, the punching almost seems meaningless. Why bother? If this person can laugh while you're doing that to them...

Then you don't have to be afraid. Then you have the power. Then you're doing to them what the first is them doing to you. You know, it reminds me, years back I worked on a theater project and we were doing witnessing theater, theater arts against political violence. We were working with a group of Chileans who had been in solitary confinement, tortured, resisting the Pinochet regime.

And we were trying to be very solemn and sanctimonious and humble and really make sure that we captured what they went through and the horrors of their captivity. Then they came to watch the play and they looked at us and said, but you missed the most important thing. And we were like, what have you done? Humor! Humor! You think we survived in solitary confinement by being solemn? You know, we were scratching on the walls. We were having mores. We were laughing with the torturers. And we had the last words. Huh.

I'm noticing a trend of people scratching on walls when things are really bad. This is something I need to try. Yeah, I need to try it in my home. I will say I've never been to a truck stop where there aren't etchings on the wall, so...

Maybe this is an ancient wisdom we have. Like, it's interesting that you say that. Yes, it's from the cavemen. Now, when they said that to you, how did you process it? When somebody says, we were in solitary confinement, we were struggling, we went through a lot of pain, and then you reenact their experience, and they say you didn't remember the humor or you didn't include the humor, how did you process that and how did it change how you saw stories? Well, I thought we missed it. We thought we were being respectful, but...

by being very serious. But that didn't capture the experience. And that there is tragic optimism. And that means that you get to decide your reaction to the events which you cannot control. And that's what humor often does. It helps you, you know, confront the uncontrollable. Yes. I think, you know, to your previous question, I've often found that when people say, what is humor's purpose? I go, it's like saying, what is water's purpose?

Humor is as broad as water is. You know, it's like, oh, you can use it to cook or dilute. You can use it to wet something. You can use it to... I think that's what humor is. To destroy something? Yeah, you can, to destroy something. There are some parts, there are some times and some moments where humor is used as a tool to... You know, like in the case of Charlie Chaplin, for instance. I think what was amazing about what Charlie Chaplin did is he used humor...

to bring Hitler down to the size that he deserved to be. He used humor to remind people that this person wasn't a god and this person wasn't impenetrable. That's what he used humor to do because what Hitler wanted was for everyone to look at him seriously and go, look at me, this is who I am. And Charlie Chapman was like, no, let's look at him as how we wish to see him.

That was one use of humor. Another type of humor is, you know, there's the gallows humor. People laughing at the end and in a weird way controlling their own destiny and their own feeling. That's right. The ultimate freedom. Exactly. Sometimes you use humor to connect people. You use humor to laugh together. Some of the best laughs I've experienced have been at funerals and at wakes and in moments where everybody is sharing a collective grief and someone will punctuate that.

You know, one of my favorite moments was one of my best friends in South Africa. His uncle was diagnosed with cancer and was stage four. And he was in the hospital bed and his whole family had come in. And essentially the doctor said there's nothing they can do. And the guy had a few months to live. And the whole family is gathered there with him. And his brother leaves the room, comes back after 15 minutes with an animated face. And he says, guys, guys.

I just spoke to the doctor, he says there's something we can do. He said there's something we can do. And everyone's like, what? And he turns to his brother who's in the bed. I mean, this man is dying and he looks at him and he says, the doctor says, you have to see how far you can bend. Can you still bend your rib cage? Can you bend your head? How far forward can you bend? And he says, I don't know, I can try. And he says, if you bend far forward, go all the way down and kiss your ass goodbye. LAUGHTER

And everyone laughed. Everyone. The man in the bed, the family, everyone. People had been crying the whole time. And till this day, it is one of the biggest laughs that is shared in and amongst the family. And I always found that magical. That...

The story of this man dying, and he did die, unfortunately. It's a happy story. But that story, when you ask them, your uncle had cancer, or your father had cancer, or your brother had cancer, they go, oh, man. And he died kissing his ass. Exactly. Exactly. I think that's what makes humor magical, is that it serves many purposes. So I thought of another one, because when you look online, often what you see is all the physiological benefits.

of laughter. Yes. That it distresses you, it reduces cortisol levels, it increases endorphins, it resets. But I thought, and this is linked to my work as well, that humor is the closest you can get to a person without touching them. How does that sound to you? As I would say in session, sit with this for a moment. That's profound.

I think it's profound because touch, depending on how you hear it, can be positive or negative. And so I agree with you. Because in many ways, humor is a form, a way that you can touch somebody else.

I mean, look at the scenario around the dying man. You have unity, you have solidarity, you are puncturing vanity, you know, can you still bend? It really was a way to getting very, very close to each other. The reason I think you are so right as well is because humor...

relies on sharing a reality. Yes. Even if it is for a moment in time, even if it is just for a sentence, that's what humor is. One of my favorite things about humor is you can often tell a joke and people will laugh before they can think about the joke and then sometimes they'll go, "No, I don't find that funny." And I go, "You've laughed. You've laughed already. It's too late. You can't..." They go, "Look, no, I shouldn't have... I don't think that that's funny." It's like, "No, no, you laughed. It's finished. It's gone already."

And I find that, that's what I, you know, to that point of touching somebody without, you know, getting close to them without touching them is, that's what humor is, is you're finding a moment where you connect with someone in a shared moment of truth. And humor, by the way, requires truth. That's maybe why I find it so intimate. It always requires truth. I don't know if you experienced that, because you use humor in therapy as well. But like, do you find...

Would you agree, if I was to say, that humor always has truth connected to it, whereas maybe facts do not? You know, when someone just tells you a story, you often find they can fabricate, they can move this, they can put it the way they... But humor, especially when other people join in, it means that people have actually agreed. I mean, you can only laugh together at something that you relate to together. Yes. And when it's true...

And it's on top of it more powerful because it is subversive, especially when it's something you shouldn't be laughing at. Yes, yes, yes. Right? So I had actually written it like this. This is an American, we called it American multiple choice when I grew up. You know, comedy exposes hypocrisy, builds bridges, tells the truth like no other, speaks the unmentionable, punctures vanity, challenges falsehoods, and skewers prejudices.

creates unity and solidarity. What does your comedy do? I think my comedy does as many of those things as possible. When I was performing comedy, you know, before I was on The Daily Show or before people really knew me, one of my favorite moments when stepping on stage was the fact that the audience had no concept or perspective of who I was.

I was a stranger stepping up in front of an audience about to engage in a really intimate experience with them. And the comedy club is oftentimes 100, 150 people. And that's it. And I remember one day, because I would, you know, I would always have this awkward feeling at the beginning of a comedy show. In many ways, you know, you will talk about that with therapy. You know, where should we begin? Where do we begin? And I remember one day I said to the audience, and it stuck with me for a few shows. I said, comedy is a lot like sex, right?

It's a seduction exercise. It really is. Because as the performer, I'm playing the role of one person where my role, my job in this moment is to satisfy you as the audience. And then, you know, the audience essentially is telling me how well I'm doing or not by how much noise they make.

And this becomes... This is a double entendre. It really is. And it becomes a real back and forth in a relationship. And there are times when the audience might get uncomfortable. And my job, I think, as a good comedian, is to try and provide the context for them to understand why they should be comfortable with me, but also understand why they aren't comfortable and be able to move and play in that dance. And that's why I think it's exactly like sex in that...

Sometimes you think the audience might come to the show going, we want you to do what you do. And then midway through go, I don't know if I'm comfortable with that. Change my mind, change my mind. I don't know if I'm comfortable with that. Let's go back to missionary jokes. And that's fine. That's fine. And it's interesting because then sometimes an audience becomes more comfortable and then you do engage and it's a constant dance. When you go back to missionary jokes, do you ever lose interest?

I don't. I don't. Because what I've learned over time is all comedy, the entire relationship, just like sex, is all about context. And context is about communicating with somebody else where you are in relation to them and then hopefully them understanding where they are in relation to you. Right. You know, there's a very interesting distinction in Latin, in French too, about context.

Rire is to laugh. Deridere is to deride, i.e. to humiliate. It's just two letters that make the whole difference. It changes it. It changes it because it says that you can't laugh with somebody who is feeling vulnerable about the thing you're trying to poke fun at, which is a little different from your uncle's story. Yeah. So...

My question is, do you find that it's harder these days to make fun of certain things? Are we more vulnerable today? Are we more prickly? So, honestly, I don't think we are. I might be the outlier in this feeling, but I don't think that people have become more sensitive. I don't think that people have become more easily offended. I honestly don't think that. What I do think is that...

the way we share content or the way we connect with people has lost the context that is necessary for people to feel comfortable when telling or not telling a joke. You know, to use the same analogy of sex,

When you have sex with somebody, it is an intimate moment where you get to know them. You both become more and more comfortable with each other. And as the layers of clothes are being removed, you're both consenting to each moment that then leads to another. And then you are engulfed in each other. And then you go where you wish to go to together. But now what the internet and social media has done is it has teleported us to sex with people that we weren't even having sex with. You know? So of course you'd be offended. You know? If...

some random person was teleported into your bedroom and then said, "Let's have sex." I think you'd be offended because there's no backstory. There's no journey. Who are they? How are they? Do you know their story? Everything we do in sex is a terrible, disgusting thing if you don't have the context for the other person. I call it the plot. Yes, thank you. The plot. Yes, the plot. And so I think comedy itself is that.

You have social media, which has been amazing for many things. But now I can have a conversation with Esther online. We can be laughing. We can be tweeting at each other. We can be sending TikToks to whatever it might be. But somebody who has no context for the plot or the conversation can step in and find a fence in that because they were not part of the conversation or the plot. And I think there's a reason no comedy clubs have windows that are open to the sidewalks.

Because with you walking by, you would be offended at every comedy club if you walked in. There are people in comedy clubs who are in wheelchairs, people who have loved ones who are deceased, people who are dying, people who are, you know, you name it, you name it. People in comedy clubs are living life. They're human. And comedians are exploring this with them. And in the comedy club, in that confine, you will find magic and connection like you've never experienced before. But if you open the windows, people would walk past and say, how could you say that? How did that person, how could you do that? Right?

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Visit squarespace.com slash Esther for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code Esther to save 10% of your first purchase of a website or domain. So in my office, when the doors are closed, I often help people cry. You help people laugh. I help people cry. I laugh with them as they're crying, but I also... You laugh with them or at them? Derride or...

But I don't get to decide what they're crying about. Whereas you do get to decide what you want them to laugh at or with. Yes, but you don't decide what they will laugh about or with. And that's where comedy is magical. Sometimes you can say something that you think is funny, no response.

You may say something afterwards or before it that to you was nothing and the audience goes, that is what we find funny. Correct. You know? So again, going back to sex, forgive me. In sex, it's like there is what you think is going to pleasure the person and there is what pleasures the person. And so you might think, this is what I'm doing, this is going to be great. And then all of a sudden they go, actually, no, no, no, I like that. And I think if you are in concert with them and you wish for that moment,

to be their pleasure as a comedian. I'm not saying this because I want you to laugh at this. I wish to bring you on a journey with me. So it is an exercise in seduction. It's come over. So when I asked you, what is something that you would like to learn from me? Actually, we asked each other, what would we like to learn from each other? I am about to go on tour and I have a ton to learn from the pro.

And you said that you wanted to learn from me how to be a better listener. Yes. Why? I think there are a few tools, two parts. One, there are a few tools that are more important in our society than learning how to listen. Not learning how to hear. I think we all hear, but we don't know how to listen. And the reason I wanted to learn it from you and to understand, you know, if you can give us a few tips on how to listen is

is because I think a fantastic therapist, especially in couples therapy, has to listen. The partner says, "She always does this." The other partner says, "Oh, that's because he always wants that." And an amazing therapist goes, "What I'm hearing her say is, and what he might be expressing is, but neither party has said that. You've listened to something that was never said,

You've listened to something that may not have come out of their mouths. It might have been a body gesture. I'm constantly fascinated by that for life, for comedy, for everything. Because I think it's one of the most priceless tools that we oftentimes forget about in society is listening, not just hearing.

So I thought of two things. So first of all, there is where should we begin, which for me, I always imagined if you listen carefully to the stories of others, the more you listen to them and the more you will see yourself. And I hope that when people listen to where should we begin, they also listen to how I listen.

But one thing that you can't know from listening on a podcast, one you do and one you don't, the one that you can't know is that you don't just listen with your ears. You listen with your voice. You listen with your eyes. You listen with your smile. You listen with the hand. You listen as you walk closer to the person, hence in therapy, in person, and not just online. The whole body listens.

And the more you listen like that, the quality of your listening is what will shape what the speaker will tell how much, how open, how deep. Meaning, listening is not just the passive recipient. Listening shapes the speaker. Hmm.

So that's one thing I taught for you in listening. And you do that because you are constantly attuned to how people are listening to you and changing what you're doing in the moment in response to how they listen.

And then listening, real listening, is curiosity. If you listen with expectations in advance of what you should hear, you're not listening. If you're listening with a confirmation bias to get evidence for that which you've already made up your mind about, you're not really listening.

Listening is a certain kind of engagement with the unknown. It's curiosity. It's being completely available to what the other person is telling you. And I think that that also happens in your shows. Yeah, it happens in my shows, but I realize why an ex of mine hated that I would look at my phone when she was speaking.

No, I just had a realization now. I'm like, huh? I never thought about that genuinely and because in my head I would go... Are you serious? No, yeah, because in my head... I thought you're supposed to have empathy as a therapist, Esther. You should be like, wow, and how does that make you feel? Not, are you serious? No, because in my head... You just realized this now. No, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. Because you see, funny enough, because of the way you articulated it. I'll tell you why. Yeah.

I would always be hearing what she would say. But what you just said was so detailed. The idea...

of shaping the speaker or the communication by your full listening is something that I don't think I fully... I would interpret that on stage, I may fully understand. But when speaking to people, sometimes I think I'll take that for granted. Because I think of it as information sometimes. So I go like, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Information, download, download, download, download. Okay, thank you. Done.

So this, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, what we call today ambiguous loss. Ambiguous loss? Yes. It's the sensation that you are with somebody who is there but not present. Ambiguous loss is a concept that we borrow from Pauline Boss who talks about grief.

When a person is having Alzheimer's and they are still physically present, but psychologically or emotionally gone, which is what happens when you're doing this. Wow. Or on the other side, when they are deployed or when they disappeared or when they're hostage...

or when they're at war and you know that they are physically gone, but psychologically and emotionally very present. And so you can't resolve the dilemma. Right. Ambiguous loss. And today, many people in their interactions experience ambiguous loss. I'm talking to you about something super important and you're just like ticking away. And it makes me feel like

Anything I'm telling you has no value, no importance. Yeah. No, I mean, I can understand it. In comedy clubs, we'd always say the moment every comedian hates is when they're collecting the check. So you never want to be on stage during that moment where the waiters will walk through the room and they'll start giving people their check. And then you're trying to tell jokes and people are trying to calculate the tip on their bill.

It's the worst moment to be in a comedy club. You can literally feel the audience disappear from you. And essentially they're going, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm listening. I'm listening. What's 20% of... Uh-huh, uh-huh. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

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Yes, yes. But I think more specifically for me as I'm going, like you already do therapy with people one-on-one. I'm saying why the group sex?

That's what I'm trying to get to. I thought of it as a first date with 3,000 people, but not yet there. Because I do think that breeding together, sitting together, talking about love, sex, desire, breakups in a collective...

actually is the most important way to take us out of the loneliness that we often feel in those experiences. I think that we've become quite socially atrophied after this time, and I think that we're living more and more in a contactless world. When this conversation, I mean, this is what's happened here. You know, like you, we talked for two years by looking at a green dot on a screen. We never heard a person laugh.

We had no idea how they responded to us. We spoke and we had no notion of who was listening and how. We feel everything here. And that experience is not just for me the experience, it's the experience of the people in the room. You are aware of the other people's responses to what's happening. You identify with others who are sharing the same experience, even if they don't say a word because you see the tears, the whole thing.

And for that, I am going back in the world. I want to have that experience and I want people to have that experience with each other. Do you ever get nervous when you're doing those shows? So this is exactly, you know, here I laughed and you talk about the bill in the comedy club. I actually need light when I talk. I need to see the people. If I have a dark pit in front of me,

That really, I have a lot of fear. I have stage fright. I need to see the eyes of the people who are looking at me because otherwise, who am I talking to?

I have fears about, you know... Yeah, but you know what's interesting about comedy is where comedy... Some comedians have that as well. But oftentimes I find audiences are less likely to laugh if they're too well-lit. Because there's a freedom in knowing that other people can't see you laugh and then you forget that other people... And I think it's important sometimes to not feel like we're watched.

in order to give our most honest response. So that's interesting that from your side, you need to see them-- - No, but I do light on and off now. I turn them on for certain things and I turn them off for other things. - Oh, wow. Like when do you turn them on? Like just like after someone has said something very awkward? Who has strange fantasies? Lights on!

You come to the show, you watch. What do you do for stage fright? I have that. What do you do for stage fright? What do you do when you joke? Wait, wait, wait. Okay, are you saying stage fright or are you saying nerves? Because I think the two are different. Oh, tell me. So in the way I interpret it, stage fright means an inability to perform because you might forget what you want to say. You're a deer in the headlights. That's stage fright to me. Nerves is different.

Nerves is having a fear. It's the fear of the uncertain. It's the moment a base jumper breathes and you see them closing their eyes and pumping their chest just before they jump off a high bridge. It's the moment before a soccer player walks out of the tunnel onto a field and you see them look up and they say a little prayer. That's nerves. I think the two are very different.

That's why I'm asking which one you actually have. Is it nerves or is it stage fright? I have both. Wow. I can't imagine you having stage fright. I have stage fright.

And I feel like I... Oh, your throat closes. Yes, yes. And then at moments I think I see blank, like I can't remember a thing. And the minute I talk to someone, like we came on, I had stage fright before, but the moment... Even here? Yes, but the minute I'm in conversation, I get grounded by the presence of the other.

It's when I'm talking, you know, the part that is more kind of... There are a few things I would like to say before that I need... And nerves, I'm fine, because nerves turn into humor. Yes, yes. Like for you, probably. And once people have laughed with me and I feel like they're with me, you know... It's true. The first laugh is always the most important, I find. Yes. But with stage fright, I...

I feel like I'm outside of myself, like I'm looking at myself from the outside in sometimes and thinking, I'm going to see blank. But I know people don't see it, but I feel it. No, I understand that. I understand that. What I'm trying to understand is...

So whenever I'm thinking of nerves or stagefrights, I try to understand what the underlying feeling actually is. I can't think in those moments. Yes, but I'm saying, I try to get to... You're that rational? Yes, but I'm trying to get to why can't you think... By the way, it is very rational.

Sometimes it's overstimulation. You know, there's too many faces, too many eyes, too many things. It could be you're a perfectionist, which I know you are, by the way. It could be you in that moment thinking about all the things that you've prepared up until that point. I often find people who have stage fright are often the people who also over-prepare. I am an over-preparer. Yeah, because when you over-prepare, you have so many things that you've inundated your brain with

That when the moment comes, you go, wait, do I remember all of it? It's almost too much pressure in a strange way. And it's why I remember when I was in school, there's a teacher who taught us, said, hey, the last thing you should do is study the day of the exam. The last thing you should do is talk about the exam before the exam. Everything up until that point, she used to say to us, she'd go, if you don't know it by the day, you don't know it, trust me. She'd be like, just move on with your life.

And I think that stuck with me. So for stage fright itself, I find that there's... And maybe that's where small talk comes in, which is another thing I don't think you're great at, is small talk. Neither are you. Neither am I? No. I'm fantastic with... I'm better than you at small talk.

I'll say this. I can create the veneer of enjoying small talk. You do not have small talk at all. That is true. But you pretend it's small talk, but it's anything but. No, but I'm engaging in small talk, but I'm getting something deeper from it. There's a difference. You are not even into small talk land at all, at all, at all. Right, you've listened to where should we begin. When was the last time you said to somebody, ha, this weather, ha? LAUGHTER

So I will tell you where I do my best small talk. I've made some of my best friends on airplanes. I met so many people on the plane, exchanging newspapers. You know, I was reading Le Monde, they were reading Libération. We knew exactly our political affiliations. And I think when you sit up suspended in the air,

Like in the movie, you start these incredible conversations and they can start with small talk like, do you travel this airline frequently? Or where are you flying to? Or is it work or pleasure? Or any of this. And then it's amazing what people tell me. When I wrote The State of Affairs, it's about infidelity. Yes. Do you know what people told me on airplanes? It's just unbelievable. It's a living confessional.

I think there's two reasons. That's why there is no small talk because people come to me and start telling me very important, secretive, deep things very quickly. No, but I think it's... And I respect it. No, but I think, okay, I think it's two things. So one, I'll actually get to that part second. But the first part is, the thing about airplanes, number one, I think there is something that we have learned and that is if you have a little less oxygen, you're a little more free. Right?

No, I'm serious. That's why people breathe into paper bags before they go on stage. No, really, it is that sometimes. It's just like letting your body's stress response go down a little. Do you do any breathing before you walk on stage? Yes. Yeah, so if you get the right breathing, that might help. But the other thing about planes might be, to your small talk, is you have inherently...

agreed with somebody that you are going through or doing the same thing. The fact that you are in a plane with somebody means that you have both made the same decision to head to the same place in life, even if it is just for that moment in time. It's context. And so now you can say to somebody, huh, do you often fly this airline? Huh. And which is one of the most important things that people are afraid of. You don't seem like a crazy person. You know, if you walk down the street and you say to somebody, do you walk down the street often? You could look like a psychopath.

But on a plane, because we've made this decision... We have a shared reality. Exactly. There it is. And so I think, I find that that is the key to good small talk. The key to good small talk is to acknowledge the environment that both of you are sharing. That's why weather is the most widely used small talk possible because it's the one thing that we all have to experience whether we like it or not. I don't care what newspaper you've read. I don't care where you're from in the world. I don't care how you see the world.

It's raining. It's raining. Wow, this rain. Yeah man, this rain.

Ah, this rain. And now we're in. And now we're in an elevator and we don't even do this kind of small talk anymore. Because that small talk would have been accompanied with the second line is, so where do you get lunch when it rains? And then where do you get lunch when it rains could have become, oh, let me take you and show you a place right around the corner that you don't know. And we would have begun a whole relationship with this one little line of small talk. And we don't have it.

Why do you think that that's gone away? Because, exactly what you described. No, I agree. I agree. I agree. I think it's... The fact that we have a means to contact the people who we already contact all the time means we are less inclined to contact new people to share experiences in life with them. So if you eat an amazing meal... That is extremely well said. You know, if you enjoy an amazing meal...

The thing you can do now is tell someone you know immediately about it. You can text your friends and go, oh my God, guys, I just ate at this phenomenal restaurant. And a picture of the whole thing. There you go. Whereas before, there was a time when you literally just had to talk to somebody on the train, the bus, wherever you are, and just turn and say, yeah, have you eaten at this place? Oh, that was...

That was amazing because you have, there's a wonderful feeling in your body when you have to share something. That's the second place where I've met people. Is restaurants. Yes, yes. You start talking with the people next to you at the table. Next thing you're in a bar together. Next thing you're walking down. Oh yeah, you see? So there. So I have a question for you because you know me a little bit. What advice do you have for me as I go out on this tour? You're touring all the time.

Off the record, you're going out in the world right now. That's the name of your tour. Yeah. Mine is just called An Evening with Esther Perel. Which I think is beautiful. I like that a lot. But what do you do? I mean, one thing I thought of with you, what does he do when he bombs? Like I say a sentence, people laugh. The next day I come, I say the same sentence, nobody reacts.

And I don't know how one recovers from this thing so fast. But that's just one piece. Like, what should one know? I've never done 10 in a row like this. So, okay, knowing you, this is what I would say. So it's interesting. Every time I go out and do shows or anything that I do in the world, I try and think about what I'm going to give. And then I try and think about what I would hope to get. And the get always changes. The give varies, but not that much. But the get always changes.

For me, on this tour, I think you have a wonderful opportunity to delve into the stage fright, understand it, tame it, or even use it to your advantage. I think that's a wonderful thing to learn to do. I'll bring a little Trevor Noah with me. You should. You should. You can do it. But you see, that's the amazing thing. And I'll talk to you. The second thing I think to remember is it's all about expectation.

So, you know, when you say something as a comedian and it doesn't land, the crowd doesn't laugh, the only reason you can feel bad about it is because you expected them to laugh. And if you do not expect them to laugh, all of a sudden, everything changes. It completely changes. Going back to what you said, if you are curious...

You don't have a preconceived notion. Instead of going out and saying to an audience, this is funny, you're saying to an audience, do you think this is funny? All of a sudden it changes because when they go no, you don't take it as a personal affront anymore. Now you're like, huh, why don't you think this is funny? And now you go down that rabbit hole. Would it be funny if I said it this way? Would it be funny if I said it that way?

Huh, this is really interesting to me. And all of a sudden you find yourself winding down a road that you never would have otherwise because you had assumed something that was supposed to happen and then didn't. And now you're in your head going, why didn't they laugh? Are they going to laugh at the things that come next? Oh, where am I? What am I doing? What's going on here? Oh, this is terrible. I don't know what's going to... And then it's over for you. So I think that's something that you can let go of. Also, when people are coming to Esther Perel, I think...

The primary reason they're coming is because they want to grow, they want to learn, they want to explore conversations that they maybe are unable to have by themselves. They want to be in community in these intimate spaces. So the one thing for you that you should also take with you is no one's expecting you to be funny. So that's a bonus. Do you get what I'm saying? Like if you are of the profession and you do not deliver it, people are disappointed. Right?

You know, so if I'm a stripper and I do not turn you on, I have failed. But if I'm a bus driver and I start taking my clothes off and you get turned on, that's a bonus. Mr. Trevor, I'm going to thank you because I want us to actually bring this community that is here with us. So first of all, your tour is called...

Off the record. And the reason I call that funny enough, that is because, you know, it's funny, you and I often are in the similar zeitgeist or we're experiencing a similar zeitgeist in time. I call it that because I wish for more of those moments.

I wish for more moments where we are off the record. I wish for more moments where we exist from here to here. Nowhere else, just in that moment. I think that's how we build communication. That's how we build understanding. That's how we build context. But now, even in politics, we live in a world where

one politician will not even engage with another politician because they're afraid that the outside world sees them and then questions their validity within their political sphere. And then that means no talks can ever happen. And I think we need to do more things off the record.

You know, love can be off the record. Your relationship can be off the record. A conversation, a room like this, let's do it off the record sometimes. You know, where it's like there's no phones and you have to just remember everything. And then you have to go and recount it to somebody else. And you have to go and try and share it with them. I genuinely want to get back to that. I want to be in a place and a space and time where I say, this happened there. You had to be there. And if you weren't, you won't fully understand it. And that's fine.

Privacy, intimacy. That is also other words for what happens off the record. But your podcast is called Now What? What Now? What Now? Yes. No, it's funny. No, it's funny because it took us a long time to decide that. It is because they are very different. Yes, tell me. So What Now is because I wanted to have conversations about the conversations that invade our lives. And I love that thing. I would always say that to friends. You know, we'd be having a conversation and someone would go, oh,

Did you see what's happening with TikTok? And then I would say, oh, what now? You know, and it's just like everything in life. I always feel that there's a what now. And I think the double entendre of it is what now? Where do we go from here? Okay, this has happened. There are many things in the world that are going to happen. But what now? I don't think we spend enough time in society asking the what now. We've gotten really good at reacting, but we haven't gotten good at saying, okay, it has happened.

What now? As in a session that starts with where should we begin. Exactly. So, listen to his podcast, go to his tour, and let's... Listen to her podcast, go to her tour. Thank you.

If you want to hear more from Trevor and myself, we asked the audience to share some questions with us as a second part of our conversation. And if you're curious, just join us on My Office Hours on Apple subscription later this week. This is my favorite part of watching your shows, by the way. I've watched the videos and then I'll always... I love this part, really.

Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.

On September 28th, the Global Citizen Festival will gather thousands of people who took action to end extreme poverty. Watch Post Malone, Doja Cat, Lisa, Jelly Roll and Raul Alejandro as they take the stage with world leaders and activists to defeat poverty, defend the planet and demand equity. Download the Global Citizen app to watch live. Learn more at globalcitizen.org.com.