How Hegseth’s "war on woke" could backfire
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Welcome to the World in 10. In an increasingly uncertain world, this is The Times' daily podcast dedicated to global security. Today with me, Tom Noonan and Toby Gillis. Pete Hegseth's first months in charge of the world's most powerful military have been described by critics as chaotic and shambolic, as the US Secretary of Defence fends off questions over missteps like the Signal group chats he's

and suggestions of a purge inside the Pentagon. But Mr Hegseth insists he's getting on with the job, saying he aims to ensure the lethality of the US military and weed out what he calls woke ideology. But what if his war on woke backfires and makes the Department of Defence weaker?

Recently, that's been the focus of today's guest, Professor Bethan Greener, who's an international security specialist and the head of school at Massey University in New Zealand. Beth, it's fair to say that you disagree with Pete Hegseth's decisions and the rationale behind them. Just start us off by explaining some of the changes that he's made at the DoD.

It's been an extraordinary few months. I kind of characterize March as being removing various things. So the abolishment of certain words may not agree with, but we can see the rationale around words like

gender or diversity, perhaps, but also removing words like tolerance and most notably respect, which is effectively supposed to be one of the US Army's seven core values. So the reach of this has been quite astounding. Also, the erasure of the experiences and sacrifices made by women and minorities in terms of the purposeful removal of photographs and

video evidence of their service. So the various ways in which people have effectively been erased from history, and we know that's a really problematic thing in societies,

Even things like recruiting, so not going out and recruiting in sites such as in girls' schools where there had been previously a targeted effort to look at increasing participation of women in the various armed forces and branches of the armed forces. And finally, obviously, the last part of removal in March was the literal removal of personnel from their positions that they had earned. So the first Navy female chief sergeant

Well, towards the end of April, Pete Hegseth tweeted that he's proudly ending the Women, Peace and Security programme in the Defence Department, which you've written about in particular.

He called it a woke, divisive social justice initiative. But it was actually policy from Donald Trump's first term, isn't it? I mean, he signed it into law.

Oh dear, yes. The irony of there having been this amazing photo opportunity for a banker Trump bringing this in, in the first Trump administration, and now there's proud counselling is astonishing. So the WPS agenda in the United States, it's not necessarily been seen as a DEI initiative. It's seen as an operational effectiveness tool. It increases situational awareness, if you want to use military terminology, and

So your intelligence gathering changes, your capacity to act in certain community changes. You know, we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan, there was a lot of emphasis on searching women and that only women could search women. So if they're not in the field, they can't do that. WPS definitely increases operational effectiveness. And we've seen a number of US military commanders anonymously online commenting that they're not happy with this because it is something which takes away their

It's also a way of empowering women, increasing women's participation. But that's not at the expense of men. There's actually a recruitment issue. So you're missing out on more than 50% of your population if you're looking for a warfighting force. Pete Hegseth says, though, that scrapping this scheme is about focusing the US military on warfighting. His argument would be these sorts of decisions make militaries more effective. Is there an argument that they do streamline armies and strengthen them?

No, they're going to undermine militaries from the inside. They're going to make them more fractured as we see different ideological concepts being, you know, jostling up against each other internally. But also, you know, we've just recent, you know, reporting out of Ukraine. We're seeing women, mothers being pulled into the military because of necessity, being very effective warfighters.

We know throughout history the examples of people being effective warfighters, no matter what their background. So there is an assumption here around who should be a warfighter, who belongs, what combat looks like even. And I think that's really ironic.

Hexeth, to my mind, is looking back to World War I, World War II and thinking that the conventional war and this way of fighting will be the future of war. And I think he's very mistaken. When we look at the ways in which grey war, hybrid war, below the conventional threshold of war activities are ongoing, when we look at things like the development of drones and the speed of AI and automated weapons,

when we look at things like exoskeletons so that we don't have an issue with regards to strength when there is a need for strength. Yeah, he's missing a beat. And why do you think, Beth, that he's so keen to get rid of this scheme? Is it part of a broader political argument, this war on woke approach? Or is it specifically that he wants to get women off the battlefield or stop focusing on and emphasising their role in the armed forces?

Well, he's definitely said he wants women off the battlefield. And for a long time, there was an argument that women would threaten unit cohesion, that they weren't as competent physically, the idea that they couldn't drag a man that's heavier than them from a battlefield off.

It's really interesting looking at those arguments because, of course, typically it's not one person dragging someone from a battlefield. It's normally two. Or what if a weaker man can't drag the stronger, you know, the heavier man? It's very much to do, I think, about the place of men in society. So we know that to be a combat soldier is the apex of masculinity and that we value that in society. We give reverence to that.

It's very much tied up with the concept of being a citizen, like to serve your country. So to serve is seen as being a super citizen of sorts. You know, your status is cemented as someone of value and of equal value. And I know that sounds, I've had people kind of, you know, joke at that and say, well, you know, great, the kind of ability to serve and die, you know, like everybody wants that for themselves. But it's really symbolic in a society as to what we value and we value military service.

So not enabling women to be in that kind of keeps them at that second class citizen level. You've also written, Beth, about a lot of other changes that Pete Hegseth has made, which again, you say, makes the US weaker. Just talk us through more of those decisions.

So one of the other things which he's done, which I think we are yet to see the long-term consequences of, is in April reworked the training schemes. So issues around mental resilience have been removed. And so one of the things is if you're training people to be lethal, you want them to be mentally well. We've seen that it is no longer mandatory for commanders to require personnel to undertake training in the law of armed conflict and ethics.

These are actually quite important things, particularly when we're trying to take that moral high ground when it comes to why we're actually engaging in war, why we go to war and also what we do in war, let alone what we do after war. Also, the education side with regards to the banning of 400 books that have reference to diversity, but leave in Mein Kampf on the shelves of the Naval Academy.

So there's a nostalgia here for a type of war related to the past. I think it's very much tied up with that traditional concept of what things should look like in a society. But that is actually going to really undermine the United States quite significantly. So, Beth, if you were to somehow get into the Pentagon, get a meeting with Pete Hegseth, what would you say to him? How could you convince him of the value of things like the Women, Peace and Security Programme and get him to change course?

Well, normally the way to convince people about things like women, peace and security and the importance of engaging with minorities and supporting affirmative action is around operational effectiveness. Because that's the sell that you can give to military personnel is to simply make them more effective on the battlefield. It's tied up with the need to have our institutions that are really important in society reflect that whole of society.

Then we get the so-called vaunted diversity of thought as problem-solving teams, but we also acknowledge that everybody in our society belongs in that society.

It's tied up with the cohesion of a society, right, as well. Like, we know that in war, what you want is a cohesive society, is a capable fighting force at the front, a cohesive society behind, you know, running a war economy, that everybody believing in the cause. And if you don't see yourself reflected in that cause...

How are you going to generate, particularly over any longer period of time, an effective, motivated force? We know that morale is so important. It's so significant to the success of military activities. It's extraordinary.

OK, Beth, thank you. That is Professor Bethan Greener, an international security specialist from Massey University in New Zealand. Now, last week, Joe Biden's former US Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, sat down with Times Radio for his first broadcast interview outside the US since leaving office.

He gave us his thoughts on Donald Trump's first months in office and what that means for Ukraine, the Middle East and the US's relationship with Europe. And he also gave us some thoughts into Joe Biden's health, that of course before the news of the former president's cancer diagnosis over the weekend. You can hear that full exclusive interview on yesterday's episode. It is well worth half an hour of your time. That is it from us today though. Thank you for taking 10 minutes to stay on top of the world. With the help of The Times, see you tomorrow.

I'm Charlotte Ivers from the Sunday Times Wine Times podcast. This week we're sponsored by Celebrity Cruisers.

Each week, myself and Will Lyons share three wines and one dish to discover the remarkable ways wines can make any meal special, from picnics to pick-me-ups with the cheese course. So pour yourself a glass, sit back for a grape-inspired podcast full of laughter, insights, and interesting wine. This podcast is in association with the Sunday Times Wine Club. Listen to Wine Times wherever you get your podcasts. Optimize your nutrition this year with Factor.

America's number one ready-to-eat meal service. Factor's fresh, never-frozen meals are dietitian-approved, ready to eat in just two minutes. Choose from 40 weekly options across eight dietary preferences, like CalorieSmart, Protein Plus, and Keto. Eat smarter at factormeals.com slash listen50 and use code LISTEN50 for 50% off plus free shipping on your first box. factormeals.com slash listen50. Code LISTEN50.