Why your divorce attorney should go on your next first date with Michele Locke & Jake Deptula
01:10:35 Share

True Story Media. Hey, it's Britt. Today, I get to sit down with Michelle Locke and Jake Deptula. Michelle is a divorce attorney who's seen how bad relationships can unravel in real time. Jake has spent years talking to survivors of stalking and toxic love on his podcast, True Story Media.

Today, we're going to put their expertise to work talking red flags, green flags. Yes, green flags exist. And how to date with your eyes wide open. Whether you're healing from a train wreck, starting over at 40 or just trying not to repeat old mistakes.

So, Jake and Michelle, thank you guys so much for being here. I just love talking to you. And since the last time we talked, Michelle and I have a cute little text love affair going on. We do. We do. And all the memes, all the best memes. All the inappropriate ones. Yeah. But there are some funny ones. I'm like, this is so, like, the snake one in the river is still my favorite. So good. So good.

So good. This is what they call inside baseball. Michelle's the queen of memes. Michelle will send the weirdest, oddest TikTok videos at like 2, 3 a.m. How did you two meet? Pinch?

I will say this is that Michelle basically approached myself and my co-host Jamie Beebe on Strictly Stalking to share some of her expertise and stories. I believe her team kind of reached out and set that up. So Michelle was actually a guest on Strictly Stalking at first. And so once we did that episode, we bonded actually pretty quickly. And, you know, it was very fascinating to me to have someone of Michelle's stature on the show over two decades before

of the work that she's done within the courts as a judge and as a family law attorney. So to me, it was really fascinating to her. I think it was an opportunity to kind of share what she has worked on and kind of put together. But immediately, we just kind of had this really strong rapport. It was really my first foray into podcasting because I'd

Had just moved out of the house with my now ex-husband and was trying to navigate the new next part of my life, like the next novel, not even the next chapter, because I was starting a new book. And I went on the show and because unfortunately, I have an immense amount of experience with stalking based on the court that I ran back when. And we clicked and

We had lots of very similar reviews on items that we discussed. And what would always start off as a five-minute, here's a quick check-in, would turn into two-hour phone calls. And so it was really just we clicked in a way that I think is difficult. When you and I met, we clicked. That was one of the most fun days I've had in so long because we just clicked. And

You know, you either click or you don't. Unfortunately, in this podcasting world I run into, I've run into some great ones that I just click with. So I click with both of you. Well, and I think that when...

When you're the type of person that does get into this, there is a common line that we all have in wanting to share to help relate to people and, you know, like how we can bring other people's stories out as well. And I think that you guys both do that so phenomenally.

This message is brought to you by Abercrombie & Fitch. I've been ready for summer for a while, and now it's finally time for summer outfits. With the trip coming up, the A&F Vacation Shop has me covered. Abercrombie really knows how to do a lightweight outfit. Their tees, sweater polos, and linen blend shorts never miss. I wear Abercrombie denim year-round. Their shorts are no different and have the comfort I need for summer.

Prep for your next trip with the A&F Vacation Shop. Get their newest arrivals in-store, online, and in the app.

So you started Loveless Fear and you

Now you're doing Loveless Law, which I'm very excited about. So, Michelle, you obviously have a background in law as a divorce attorney, and you've worked on the bench with DV survivors and for CPS. Do they call it CPS in Texas? Yeah, CPS. I was, for a period of time, the associate court judge for Child Protective Services. And...

I've heard you say that one person that you should turn to for relationship advice is a divorce attorney. So here I am looking across your career. What are some of the big themes you can pull out from that? You know, so I, and now in my own journey of dating after divorce and trying to figure out what the next step is. And the one thing that I think has been the biggest takeaway is

from my practice is that communication is key to a relationship working out. And it's not, and it has to be healthy communication because communication that's unhealthy doesn't work.

But really, and I joke tongue in cheek, it's like, who better to ask for marriage advice than a divorce attorney? Because I see why they end. And they end for lots of reasons. And then the other part is, and I think this is important for most people, is that what works for you

may work for you and your spouse. There is no norm when it comes to marriage or relationships. And for each person, it's different. And so if you go into a marriage expecting that you're on the 2.5 kids, the one dog, the two cats, the partridge in a pear tree and the white picket fence,

That, I think, is an unrealistic expectation or goal because that may not be who you are. And we keep striving. In fact, I talked about this recently. I'm getting ready to have some blogs that come out about this. But I know I got to a point when I was like 30 years

6.37, I was a judge. I had two kids. My stepdaughters were both off in college doing well. I had three dogs, three cats. I mean, I had the house next to the country club. I had it all. And I remember thinking about 36, 37, well, now what?

Because you have what everyone says you're supposed to have and you're not fulfilled. And so I relate that back to your marriage as a really long-term relationships is you really have to find what works for you and your partner and be damned when anyone else says that's appropriate or not. It's none of their business. And I'll say that communication is definitely key.

And I think one part that people forget a lot is communication is 50% what you say and 50% how they hear it. It isn't this, if you say it, everything is great. You have to make sure that your partner understands what you're saying because we all hear things and listen through our own experiences and our own lenses and biases. And it...

You know, I can say something very basic and I think my partner should get it. And what they heard is entirely different. And I do think that there is that element of making sure when you communicate, you're heard. And I think it's really hard sometimes to do that.

Jake, you have a unique perspective. You've worked in media for over 20 years and you bring this personal experience to the table in terms of the dark side of relationship dynamics. But you also try and date. Like what's it like as a man trying to come at it from that angle? Yeah.

Well, you know, it's interesting because a lot of the things that I've learned have been through the podcast, right? And one of the reasons I started Loveless Fear, it was originally titled Let's Stay Single. And it was about my journey after a toxic relationship in order to understand a little bit why I am a green flag to these red flags in this situation. And I think that when you find that, you realize, okay, well, I've been through all this stuff. I've talked to so many survivors and yet I'm still susceptible, right?

to these things out there. And it's one of those odd things when you look at it from that perspective in trying to find out, okay, well, going out there and dating and doing this process for me has been eye-opening from this perspective, but it's also been much more rewarding after doing the show because I kind of understand the nuances and I understand not just the

major red flags, the ones that most people could pick up, but more the subtle ones now. And I have a lot of friends in my circle who want to vet any woman that I'm dating from first date beyond at this point. So I've got a very protective inner circle of mostly female friends who want to make sure that I'm protected and that the person that I'm potentially seeing is checked out per se.

Yeah, because we're running her through the cycle, sorry. And I tell this to former clients, I'm like, your next soon-to-be whatever needs to be run through your divorce attorney. It's just like you have with me now free access to 23 years of red flags because if you are hiring me as your attorney and we end up in court, someone has a personality disorder. That's just personality disorders end up in final trials. That's just kind of the rule.

So you can spot them a mile away. And that feeds into my crazy eyebrow theory, which we'll talk about later. That being said, the next one you're running through me, Jake, and your other circle of friends. Do you know what's funny about that, Michelle? Is that imagine being on a date and saying, you know, let's not talk about marriage. Let's not talk about kids. Let's talk about divorce. Meet Michelle Locke.

That's literally, can you imagine that? Brett, imagine if you were facing Michelle, if you were dating someone and that person was like, okay, you know, I don't want you to meet my therapist. I don't want you to meet my parents. I want you to meet my potential future divorce attorney. Honestly, I was just thinking, like, if I go on a date, I might just start FaceTiming both of you on the date and I'll put it over and be like, you know,

You have they have 15 minutes with you and then we'll see if the dates can continue, because I think that we've all had enough experience with the incredibly toxic people that we we know the big red flags. We know the love bombing. We know the bread crumbing. We know those. But now it is becoming this the subtle, the subtle things that.

might just be boundaries that we have now. I just yesterday had an interaction with an ex, and I have realized in that relationship that I thought was really good. He was a very good guy presenting, but there were so many things that were very toxic in the way that he communicated with me, and I just didn't realize it because the good was so good. And I missed that.

I missed them because they weren't these big red flags. And so how how do we find the subtle stuff? Where where does it lie? Is it in just the communication? Because we all know, like actions, matching words and and that. But I don't know. I'm real scared to date again. Well, I think I'm not. I have no desire. But why? Why don't you want to date? That's always a tough question.

I don't want to. I'm probably just afraid. Because that's where... Let's be honest about it. That's where I'm at, where the concept of having a partner is something that I want. But actually getting to a place where I feel comfortable going out and finding a partner, I don't know that I'm there. Yeah, I'm not there either. To going out and saying, yeah, I'm going to go date and find... Yeah, I...

The thought of it is really actually repulsing. And it's not because I, because everyone's like, oh, well, you hate men. No, I love men. Unfortunately, me too. It's... Right. I mean, I really do. And I would love to settle down again at some point, I think. But the prospect of having to go through...

Oh, God, all the bad ones to find one good one. And honestly, someone that can put up with me because I'm a whole lot to handle. But you're not. I'm just like, oh, I am. No, you're just. I don't mind calling it the MU. You're just you. And so and and thinking that we're too much, because I will say that a lot of people think that I'm a lot to deal with.

But that's just like, go find less than if you, if you can't handle it, but it takes a specific type of man to handle women like us, Michelle. And that's Jake. See? Yeah. Well, here's the thing. I want to ask you both this in, I've heard this often from many women, some that I've known as friends, some that I've dated, but the term too much, I have a theory about what too much is in some contexts, right?

is you're so...

independent, you're so comfortable in your person, that that should actually be an asset and it should be something that's rewarded. As you said before, Britt, if someone feels you're too much, look for less. And I think that's really the lesson here is not to have to condition yourself because someone can't handle you, quote unquote, or someone isn't capable of dealing with the vibrant nature of your personality. But instead, you're

They have the tendency to need to overshadow that, hence control that. And we've all been there. And that's a very uncomfortable and unhealthy situation. It's exactly right, Jake. And Michelle, you and I have had conversations about this where we are independent and we can do it. There isn't something that I have to have a man to handle, but-

I would really love it if a man did handle some stuff. And like, I would love to be soft and have that space where I feel comfortable doing that and trusting in my partner. And it's this weird dynamic. I don't know if it's a new thing because the roles have sort of shifted and they're still...

this might be a generalization and Jake, you can correct me, but there's just still a lot of men who want to feel needed. But when you're dating in your forties, I can't go to a guy and say, oh, I need you to pay all my bills and take care of me. Like I have to do all of that. I have to be independent in order to survive until I find a partner. And so it's this balance of, you know, at what point do you,

Do you take that care that a man, I think, kind of naturally has? And how do you balance it, especially at our age? I can tell you this, and this is my commonality conversation with Michelle. Michelle goes out into the world as a very powerful, intimidating person. OK, most men are most likely intimidated by her. OK, in the workplace and everything else like that. And I think part of the transition is this.

For Michelle to find a man who's possibly intimidated by her in the workplace in what she does, but not necessarily intimidated by her personally, building the intimacy, building the trust. And that's the one flip. Michelle kind of wants...

the less than alpha male outside, but the alpha male at home. So it's really somebody who's not going to be intimidated by her power and what she brings to the world, but at home can take care of business. And that's the ultimate sort of flip. So bottom line, we've talked about this. We had this episode of Loveless Fridays, the emasculation of men. And it's a very tricky thing because a man has to be so secure in his masculinity that

in order to understand that he's with a powerful woman, but also have his own power to give her what she needs at home. And that's kind of the trick, but I think it boils down to that. I don't think weak men at home or in the workplace are going to survive under either of your watch, to be fair. No, not even a chance. We'd leave them in the fetal position. Yeah.

begging for mercy. That's kind of what I did to my ex yesterday in text messages. I'm like, here, I actually thought about both of you because I got done. I sent the text thread to my best friend and she's like, thank you for sharing your emasculation of that human. And I'm like, I didn't mean to be mean, but I was just being direct. Sometimes the truth hurts. Yeah. But there's, so it's interesting with that, Jake, the

The hard part, and I don't know, Michelle, your full history, but because of...

how I sort of present in the workplace and in life, the people that I do attract are the men that want to take it. They are the toxic people. They are the sociopaths and the narcissists and the ones that are not intimidated. They are intrigued and they want that confidence that they don't have themselves. And so it adds this extra layer of

The people that I attract are these pseudo confident toxic men. You know, I can tell you this. I think that the trick is going to be finding men who understand women, not finding men who think they understand women. And that's a big generalization. But I think that ultimately you've got to put yourself in a position where you are.

Have to realize how much you have to consistently fight for being a woman every single day waking up and go out of the world. And for any man who thinks that everything's equal for every man who thinks that women ask for too much, who for every man who thinks that women are, um,

less than that's the problem. You're not going to, you're never going to find a fair shake with it. And even no matter how masculine this person presents or how much you think you can change or alter or shape them. And that's one of the dilemmas too. Don't assume you're going to change a man in his forties or fifties. Um,

In some cases, don't assume you're going to change a man in his 20s. I mean, that's really what it boils down to because most, you know, we talked to this, most men want to control and most women want to change. Both C words, you know what I'm saying? Like in terms of that, and that's what happens. You think, well, I'll just shape this man to the idealized version of this. It's not going to happen always that way. You know what I'm saying? It's always going to come up something that's different, you know, in that way. Yeah.

So relationships, but to add to that, I think it's conversely true for a man dating a woman. Don't go into a relationship thinking you're going to change the woman. And because that's what happens with someone like me a lot of times, and I have no doubt this happens with you, is that they want something to change. They love what I do.

But it's too much for them to handle, so they want me to change to be something different. And to go back to what Britt said, a lot of the times the change is to do something to devalue you or make you less so that they can feel more powerful.

And it's unfortunate, but Britt is right. When we are the powerhouses that we are, let's be clear, when I walk into the courtroom, I'm a powerhouse. You're not going to miss that I'm there. And please understand, that's not me boasting about myself. I just...

I walk in and I do my job and I do it well. Just like I know Britt does her job really well. But you should boast about yourself. And it's not it's not boasting to acknowledge that you are qualified and powerful in your position. And I think that there is that underlying belief.

We try and make ourselves a little smaller when we're also trying to make ourselves big enough that we can have a presence in that workplace. And it's this dynamic that is complicated. And they just don't get it. Like women, Jake, you talked a little bit about it, but that, you know, men don't really understand how hard it is for women in the workforce. And I was telling when I did this jury, I was in jury trial last week.

And I was talking to the jury doing Vordire, and one of the things I talked about was how I had a male attorney while we were in the court office, the judge's office. They had a front part where the court coordinator was. I was six, seven months pregnant with my middle son, and the attorney actually asked me to come sit on his lap. You were kidding me.

I'm 100% true. I'm not going to say his name. He's still a practicing attorney. But yeah, I'll never forget it as long as I live. And I had two options that day. I could smile, laugh off and walk away, which is the option I chose. Or I could have made a scene.

And then you're emotional. And then you're crazy. And, you know, it's just a joke. Unreasonable in my reaction. Right. Just a joke. I didn't mean it. It's I chose the option of of walking away because and I chuckled. I'm like, yeah, not doing that. Thanks. And walked out. And I think that that we do that a lot. And I think I even do that on dates where you just sort of laugh and laugh.

move past the subtle misogyny. I was in an excavator

working on a job site and a guy totally see this. Please tell me, do you have a pink hard hat on? Cause that would just make my day. I'm not union. It was my excavator. So I don't wear hard hats. So, but well, if you have one, it should be, it should be or black. I don't know. Um, so I'm in an excavator working and a man comes up and starts filming me.

And he's like, wow, you're really good at that. Like, I bet you could give a back rub with my bucket. I'm sorry, what? You are kidding me. And so I said, why don't you lay face down on the ground and I'll try? Because... How stupid. What...

Where's the logic here? Like, and it really, but the same thing. I made a joke about it to minimize it and to move on because my other option is literally to swing my bucket around and take this man out. And I can dig a hole to get rid of him. You can build a deep hole for him. And then I'll tell you one more quick one. And this one, it's so funny because I think about this so frequently. I went on a blind date once.

um in between my marriages so this is forever ago forever and ever ago um and we were set up by a colleague of mine it was actually his son and his son walks into the date and the very first thing he says to me is well I can see why you've been so successful in your business and it's like because because of how because of how I look like right and it it

Immediately, I was like, OK, this is going to be the shortest date of my life. Right. Because already like you don't run out the gate with misogyny. But it's so interesting because I want to. Really? Because I thought that worked really well to get my interest. Misogyny wins. But sometimes they do. It's like negging, you know, like sometimes it's that like underhanded compliment. Hey, it's Britt. I wanted to take a minute to talk about quints.

I've gotten tired of clothes that look cute online but feel cheap in real life. I want better fabrics, a better fit, better everything. With Quince, I got it. Their quality is incredible, everything feels intentional, and the prices are shockingly reasonable. It finally feels like my clothes match my standards.

I just got the new 100% European Linen Popover Mini Dress, and I'm pretty sure it's what I'm going to live in this summer. Treat your closet to a little summer glow-up with Quince. Go to quince.com slash brit for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's quince, q-u-i-n-c dot com slash brit to get free shipping and 365-day returns.

quince.com slash brick. Did you know that April is financial literacy month? They made a whole month reminding you to finally take control of your money. The good news is that you don't need 30 days. Acorns makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future in just five minutes. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. Get started with the spare money you have right now.

I've had all my kids sign up so that they can take any of their extra money and save it, but also give them a way to learn about investing. Sign up now and join the over 14 million all-time customers who have already saved and invested over $25 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com slash you probably or download the Acorns app to get started.

I want to ask you both this. I have heard some of the worst pickup lines, some of the worst misogynistic things.

I've never heard these things work. I've never heard a woman say, Oh, that's great. Now here's the difference though. Okay. You both know the complexities, but you definitely know more than Michelle, but Michelle doesn't technically, you know, jump out there with dating yet. She's got a lot of guys swimming into her DMS, but she's not really ready to take the plunge yet per se. Um,

That's probably fair. I have enough that I could do something if I wanted to. Easily. Let's be real clear. I could, but yeah, we're good. Entire Austin walked out because once Michelle Locke hits the scene, you're done. You're toast. But I will say this, and even extending to Dallas and some other cities that we won't mention on this, like Houston. What?

But that's an inside joke. But the other thing I do want to say is this, is that how many times have you had to be in the position where you're sharing the story of how awful this was or whatever, but when you're on the date, you just kind of want to pacify it. But you're like, well, this guy, he's better than three other clowns that I've dated. And at least we can maybe get through this. I mean, how many bad dates do you have to be on?

to recognize that this is just kind of a pattern of this male behavior. And I've never known these things to work. I'll be honest. I mean, I don't use those things, but I also was raised primarily by women in a very equal position. And I think that's that seems to be a lot more unique that I'm finding as I grow older in that way. Well, I'm dying to know what were the worst lines you've heard?

Me or Britt? It's got to be Britt. Yeah, Jake. I want to hear from Britt. No, it's just basically – Well, no, basically just so many guys go out there and I hear these stories. And Britt brought this up before, like the nagging thing. I mean that's a pretty easy one where I basically destroy your confidence so I can build it up. So I become the reward center. You know what I'm saying? And then make you second guess –

you know, your beauty or your intelligence or anything in your life. So I kind of like just tear you down, you know, make a comment, something that you're insecure about and then sort of chip away at it and then give you a compliment. So it's like breadcrumbing is what it is more or less. And it's offhanded compliments like, oh, I wouldn't have expected you to also be intelligent.

And so, like, it seems simple. I didn't expect you to know that. It's like a simple statement. And when you first hear it, you kind of don't process it as being a negative thing. But then you think about it and it's like, no, he just said you're attractive and you're smart. That's a wild combination. I would have thought you were dumb and smart. And obviously I'm here because I was okay with you being dumb. And, you know, it's...

Um, that happens a lot to me. And Michelle, I know that you haven't been dating, I think. And I'll have to double check my numbers. But I think I went on over 30 first dates last year.

And that's all for me. I don't have time for that. Michelle charges a certain amount per hour for her workplace thing. So I think she's equating it to the hours lost. The way Michelle thinks is very business minded. So I have a feeling she's like, well, that's a that's a that's a full client. That's a nice five week vacation in Hawaii. If that is a serious money and time investment. Well, 30. Holy cow. And mine wasn't even like I don't even know that I was looking.

find a relationship. But my goal was after my really toxic relationship with Kanan was I didn't want to put myself back on the shelf. I wanted to still engage with people and test my healing tricks that I had learned to spot bad people or to establish boundaries. And so I just went on a lot of first dates. I got to tell you, I didn't go on many second dates. And I

But the energy was just too much. I don't do that at this point. I just did the math. Yeah. How much should Burt be charging for these 30 dates? That sounds really bad, though. That sounds like escort territory. It's not. It's really not. No, tell me. Here's my Venmo. Here is my Venmo. Send me the cash. I literally just did the math of kind of two and a half hours.

times 30 dates, right? Because you're going to be on a date for two and a half hours. I multiplied it by my hourly rate. I'm like, yeah, I'm not doing 30 dates in a month. In a year. You're not having it. In a year. In a year. No, I'm still not doing it. Monetarily, it's not worth it. Britt, let me ask you this. During these first dates, what did you learn about yourself along this journey? That's what I really want to know. So a lot, and a lot of it, and this is part of why I did it, was I

I am anxiously attached. According to my therapist, it's historic. And so that was a lot of what I worked on over the last few years. And so I was trying to not become anxiously attached and create these stories around these individuals that were wildly...

I mean, you meet someone, you go on a date, and in my head, I'm like, okay, and then we're going to do this, and then we're going to do this. And I've already created an entire relationship and a breakup and a divorce. And, you know, it's just my brain...

That's my brain. I go through it all. The whole thing. You project out. You project out. And so I tried to learn how to not do that, which I've done a really good job. There's some guys that have reached out that I went on first dates with and they'll randomly pop up out of the graveyard. And

And I have no anxiety around them. What's your age range? How old are you dating, Britt? Number one. Number two, you said graveyard. I just thought that, you know. Hold on. I'll show you. Well, she sent me her. I'll show you the video. Wow.

Michelle likes them younger, I know. We talked about that. I've dated younger, you know, so too. So I get it. I don't have like a specific – I try not to limit who I have interactions with. My youngest date I think was 32 and my oldest has been like 54. So there's a swing. I have 10 – usually 10 years back, 10 years forward. But yeah, I recently have been dating younger. I'm a 12 down, 10 up. So it's just –

There's a term that I use, what you were mentioning called forecasting. And one of the things in the problems that I find with dating is that when you're not staying present in the date, because the person you're with sitting across from you, wherever you're at, is going to be the person you could potentially be spending years with. Okay. And I think that the forecasting thing is when you put too much in your head, you have an idealized version. How often have you both been on dates? And this is more to Brit for recent purposes. Okay.

And you're sitting there and you leave the date and one person has a completely different perspective on how the date went. I've been on dates before where I'm a pretty personable person. Like what you see is what you get. I'm not going to be like shy on a date or like I'll go, I'm just, I just am what I am. Right. I've, I've took me a long time to get to this point. So, um,

I've been on a date. I, you know, it's, it's personal or whatever. Maybe I'm not feeling chemistry, but the end, like, I'm like, okay, well, this might be a good first date. I'm not sure about a second. And then I'll get this like, look like, aren't you going to make plans for a second date with me? I'm like, well, it's, it's not like an offense thing, but it's almost like,

you have a totally different perception of how the date's going. You know what I'm saying? Like you leave the date thinking like, well, that was probably one and done. And they're thinking like, well, more or vice versa. You could probably be in the same way where you think it's going really well. And they're like, no, this is only a first date. Have you both had that kind of circumstance? Well, I would say that what I think happens is once you get to that first date, there is some...

forecasting. And so there might be some people that are like, oh, this was a mediocre date or it was fine. You know, it wasn't awful, but maybe there's not a, you know, chemistry or connection. But I put in the effort. I've talked to this guy for, you know, four days texting and I put on a dress. I'm going to go on a second date. And I but I think there's a lot of younger people, like you said, that they're they're in that. I'm just trying to get to my Instagram wedding.

And you know what? And that is my concern, too. It's on the underdog. I just I want to get it. So it's perfect for social media. Right.

I want everyone to know that I have it all. Michelle, that's a really good point. I think you might be able to capture a really interesting niche here before the Instagram wedding takes place. They should talk to you because at the end of the day, they're going to end up facing you. They're going to end up needing you to defend them or you're going to be defending their partner. And that's a very important point.

point, I think that so many people get caught up in the romance and the projection or the forecasting of what this could be without really understanding who the person is. And I see this with communication a lot. There's a lot of people who are projecting things, right? Online. They're not communicating. They're communicating outward. They're projecting, they're forecasting, they're showcasing, but they're not communicating.

Yeah, and they're projecting what it is they see, what they have projected, right? What they've thought, here's how it's going to go without really analyzing what it is that's in front of them. Because once that wedding happens and all the Instagram, all the I've got it all perfect for everyone else has gone away and you have to go home with that person every single night. That's such a good point because one of the issues is this.

You put stuff out there sometimes. I know we've all been like this. You don't think like, well, how happy will I be? But how happy will this relationship make other people or how happy do we look outwardly? We make a good looking couple, don't we? I mean, it's oh, my God. I don't. Beauty and the Beast. Who cares? At the end of the day, you go home with that person and y'all looks fade.

Listen, you can fix ugly. You can't fix stupid. 100%. To be fair, I am totally attracted to medium ugly guys my whole life because they have a personality. They've developed a personality. Medium ugly guys, please apply within. You probably think this story is about you. Britt's not wrong. Britt is not wrong. It is...

There's a reason behind it. There's actually a method to the madness. Michelle, I know that your thirst traps are all medium ugly guys. So let's talk about your thirst traps. They really are. I mean –

You know, let's talk about the thirst traps. Okay. Cause they're literally just, I want to look and drool, but I really don't want to meet them. Cause I don't want to be disappointed. Oh, like I just, let me live with that fantasy that I'll never have, but I get to look at because when I meet them and I have to use monosyllabic words, uh,

that just doesn't do it for me. Michelle, we're the same. We might need to do a DNA test to see if we've actually came from, because yeah, we really are. We really, really are. I, I,

I can say this as a teenage boy, I had a ton of fantasies, right? But I kind of outgrew those when I first got into the world and granted attraction. But I realized this is that to your point, Michelle looks fade and it's personality that's going to win the day for me. But it's also you don't know what you're attracted to. You got to like personality can put looks on.

you know, lower. Oh my God, changes everything. And then looks can put pressure. It's like weird, but I don't think it's always conditioned as such. But I think that where you're dating, who you're dating, who you're seeking, how you're finding these people, most of the time we like to date or think about dating people in the workplace. You know why? Because we know them so well. We feel comfortable around them. The problem with that is we all know

causes a lot of different friction, a lot of different competitive nature, especially if you're in the same field. You know what I'm saying? And that's the other thing. And also, if it goes south, that's...

That could be detrimental to your own career and not as much. You know what? More so being a woman, I think, in so many ways than being a man. I think that from a male standpoint, you know, again, it's still that that culture. It's not, you know, I mean, granted, yeah, we have had me too. We have had times up. But let's be fair. Those are moments and movements, not necessarily paradigm shifts, unfortunately. Yeah.

And we're seeing it worse now. Yeah, I think it's worse now. I don't think there was a... I think Me Too may have done more harm than good. And you do tend to meet people, whether it's in school when you're younger, in your job place when you're older. And that's just historically how it's happened since they let us go to work.

But I don't have a workplace. They let us go to work. Do you guys do it now? Are you voting? Are you able to vote? For now. I don't know. That's not even a joke. You're not even voting. No, it's not. We were the... Oh, yeah. Women were probably not smart enough to vote. Yeah. It's...

Oh, find a man who feels comfortable with male bashing too. I got to tell you that. I'm very comfortable with male bashing because all I hear is stories about how men victimize and turn toxic on women. So, and I'm comfortable not with that process because I'm very defensive, but that's another thing I got to say is that you probably would do well with feminists, but that are also masculine, that are also under, that are also responsible males from my perspective, because they, yeah. Yeah.

Michelle, tell me if this is true. You're in Texas. In some weird world in my brain, that man is like the old school cowboy rancher that loves his person and isn't super conservative. But it's just that guy that's like, I'm going to take care of my woman. Like, that's my job. So y'all need to remember, I live in Austin, which is man bun central. So...

I don't know that it would fit the stereotype that you have. Well, that's Seattle. Almost like Brokeback Mountain a little bit, like thinking, I want a sensitive man, a man who takes care of his woman, quote unquote. But it's not quite what they're not quite looking for you, Britt. I'm sorry. But that's the way you pitched it for a second. I want a sensitive cowboy. You know, one who's tall and soft at home. It's like, does that exist? Yeah. The guy from Yellowstone was named Cole Hauser. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Oh, I'll take him. Please to go. 100% to go. Everything for you, Michelle, is to go. Nothing's for there. It's always to go. Michelle wants everything convenient. Have you noticed that? All her men are really like, I want my thirst traps this way. Everybody's on an hourly. But you got a busy fucking life, Michelle. I'm sorry. You really do. And you know your value in the workplace. You know your value in the workplace. In the workplace, I do.

I do. But yeah, but I'm just too busy for nonsense. Like I don't have time for bullshit. Oh, well, so then I guess we're single forever. Right. That's the problem. I'm like, nah, I don't got time for this. Imagine, imagine being, imagine you're a guy, imagine being on a date across from Michelle and Michelle breaks out her laurels. Michelle, Michelle, like, oh, I work in law. And then like, listen, what do you do? Well,

you know, I do some judge stuff and some like, imagine Michelle dumbing down her, her power and her prestige and her, her basically reputation in the Austin community and the legal community at large. Just imagine how Michelle like turns into like this school girl on a date. Yeah. You know, I hang out in the court and I take notes and stuff like that. Twisting my hair. Twisting my hair. Y'all conversations with men have ended. Um,

immediately following them finding out I'm a judge. Immediately. Conversations over, they walk away. What do they get to hide? Yeah. Yeah.

Nothing you want. They didn't stick around for me to find out. So, Jake, the last time we talked, you had gone on a date or two with someone. Are you still? What are the details? Oh, we're still dating. I can tell by the look on his face. We are, yes. It's gotten more entrenched and I would say more serious. She's a lovely woman.

And it's very weird to me to be in a position at this point to – I'm not trying to dispel a lot, but I've been under a lot of toxic situations. And this is – it feels –

to feel good about myself again. It's a very weird circumstance. I got to be honest with you. It's me being comfortable being treated well consistently and not being manipulated or not being exploited because I had some problems with the last girl that I dated and the one before, the longer term one before was before COVID and that's the one that launched

um, loveless fear, which was less than a single, uh, or at least, you know, inspired the launch of that based on my own toxic, uh, situation. But, um, yeah, this is, this is a very unique situation for me as of recent, as of the past couple of years, because, um,

And all the things that I went through before, all the anxiety and all the second guessing and all the sort of push and pull and yo-yo breadcrumbing and things like that. I didn't have so much gaslighting with this last situation, but there was definitely love bombing. There was definitely like, I need you. I want you, blah, blah, blah, and then disappear for five days. And then back and forth. And then there was some unfortunate financial things as well that I kind of got pulled into. And so, yeah, this is a very...

fresh and unique thing. And I'm trying to get comfortable with this gets an awful, but like feeling good in a dating scenario.

Craftsman days are here at Lowe's with big savings on the tools you need. Save $100 on the Craftsman V26 Tool Power Tool Combo Kit, now at $199. No matter what the project is, Craftsman's high-quality, high-performance products empower you to build on. Stop by your nearest Lowe's store and check out the full line of Craftsman tools today. Valid through 618. While supplies last, selection varies by location.

Calling hard seltzer lovers. Searching for the tastiest seltzer? Look no further. Neutral Vodka Seltzer is absolutely delicious. Made with real vodka and real juice, Neutral keeps it tasty with every sip. With flavors like pineapple, watermelon, orange, and lime, there's something for everyone. Neutral. Keep it tasty. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2025 Anheuser-Busch. Neutral flavored vodka and carbonation. 4.5% alcohol by volume. St. Louis, Missouri.

You know, it's weird. I do want to mention this, Michelle, there was a moment I do have to call you on this way. You said, you know what? I'm thinking about dating again. I don't know when this happened in the past couple of weeks. Those past couple of weeks, you and I talked. There may be someone. A specific someone? A specific someone. Wait, wait. Is it one of the guys who slid into your DMs?

No. Not the flexible guy? Someone I've known for a long time. Are you blushing? Look at this. You're never going to get this version of Michelle, so keep pushing, Britt. Keep pushing.

No, it's... I'm going to put a flower filter on Michelle. Doesn't it look like we should... Do you have a love filter on this? I'm just kidding. Shut up. I would never project that. That's too soon. Definitely lust, though. I can definitely tell there's some lust going on. No, you can see the softness just in her. I love this. Like a little girl. No, it's someone I've known for a very long time and I didn't think I would ever get divorced.

And just made a comment. The phrase was, I'm not going to ever let you go. And not in a creepy stalking way. Let's be real clear on that. Right. Yeah.

I saw Jake's reaction. No, no, I know because, because, no, no, because no, no, no. My reaction was not because I felt that it was toxic, but you got to understand something. A guy who's been waiting and pining and did nothing to sabotage your current or past relationship is somebody you definitely need to explore because this is somebody who's

Respectfully, you know how many people would try to wedge in there and become the best friend and say, oh, he's awful. Your husband's awful. You're a divorce attorney. Make it happen. This is a good thing. I got to be honest with you. Vet him, but this is a good thing.

I'm excited. Yeah. I'm so excited. I'm so excited to text you later today, Michelle. See, Michelle. I knew it. I knew we'd get something out of Michelle. I have a date. When I come down to L.A., I have a date that night before our all-day date. Oh, Lord. Look at this. All of us. Yeah. Yeah.

See, we're not jaded. We still, after all this stuff, we're still pining for something, whether it be connection, whether it be lust, whether it be love. It's pretty remarkable that we haven't been put through the... Is it that we're not jaded or are we just dumb? Like, is there a little bit of stupidity? I'm not jaded. I still believe in love. I really do. I'm ordained. I'm doing a wedding in a couple months. I'm doing a wedding in two hours. Yes, yes.

Do you marry people? I marry people. Yeah, I do. Oh, my God. I do. It's my favorite thing to do. So I'm ordained as well. So I can do the marriages outside of Texas. But because I'm a judge in Texas, I can do all the marriages in Texas. Oh, I love that. So yeah, no. So I'm in two hours going to go get married some people. I'm a secret hopeless romantic. Like I can't, I can't help it.

So you can both perform weddings. That's good to know, actually. Britt, man, we really have a lot in common. Yeah, we do. It's getting a little weird. Don't feel uncomfortable. Don't worry. I know it's tough, but I think you can both trust each other.

Michelle, as someone who's seen the aftermath of broken trust in courtrooms constantly, what's the most underestimated tool people can arm themselves with before entering any relationship? So I think there's probably a couple of things you arm yourself with. If you're going through the litigation system and in family law and you have to end up in court,

Something has gone horribly wrong in your life. It's kind of my same philosophy. If you end up in child support court, something's gone horribly wrong. You've taken a bad turn on those crossroads. It's going to sound silly, but I think the one thing you take with you is that kindness still matters.

That just because what you went through may have been horrific and awful, that being kind still gets you somewhere. Like the whole being bitter and having a chip on your shoulder and being resentful that you didn't get your pound of flesh in court or that you didn't get the justice you felt you deserved. Life isn't fair. And Jake's heard me say this a million times. There's four-letter words in divorce, a lot of them, and fair is not one of them.

And that's why I always recommend throwing the divorce parties because you're not going to get the closure that you want from your ex. That could be male or female. So you create your own closure. But kindness, I think it's becoming more and more of a lost art form, just being kind. And I think if we got back to that, even after going through traumatic stuff, we can still find in our persons the ability to be kind and

Then what we went through may have made us smarter, may have made us more aware, but didn't change the fundamental of who we are, which are kind people at heart. I mean, there is some evil, let's be real clear. There are evil people in this world, but I think generally people are kind, but I think we've forgotten about that. And I think it is how you have managed to not become jaded after all of this is understanding that there is underlying issues

human element to every single story. And most of these people, they don't want to be there. They don't want to be in that courtroom. This is not how they saw their life going. And I think that's phenomenal. For me, one of the things that I've worked on the most, especially in the last couple of years, is confidence in myself. And I have confidence in myself as a businesswoman, as a mom, as those, but confidence that I can

see the red flags or see those things that I know aren't going to be positive for me in a relationship. But it's really hard to keep that confidence because if you miss a flag or you miss something and then you're back in this cycle, it's like one step forward, two steps back.

But that's where you go back to kindness, because if you have kindness, then you can give yourself grace. Because guess what? We're going to miss some of those red flags. I mean, some of us, when we see the red flags, go, here, hold my beer. But as we get older and learn more, we can identify more. But we also, so long as we keep kindness in our very core, give ourselves grace for fucking up. Because we're gonna, people, we're human. Yeah, I agree. Yeah.

Well, I was going to say, how does Michelle – and Britt, you can hopefully answer this or one of us can. How does Michelle maintain being such a compassionate person after everything she's done in the scene? We're talking 5,000 court cases, 5,000. You would not assume that Michelle has ever gone through what she's gone through. Like let's be fair. So as a – let's say –

new insider. I mean, Michelle, we haven't known each other that long. And so from the way that I see you, I think answers that question, Jake, in that you

I think Michelle started her life and started her job with kindness and empathy. And she made the conscious choice to continue that. And when people come into her courtroom as a judge, Michelle, I'm making wild assumptions, so just jump in. But and or as a divorce attorney, I don't see it that she is

judging the situation and she really sees these people for the humans that they are and the ability to do that is so incredibly powerful and I'm Michelle I view you as such a force in this world but uh but a positive force like a positive force you you come in and you might um

you know, take over the courtroom, but you're doing it with kindness and empathy. And you're doing it from that human standpoint so that it isn't, it isn't about winning. It's about making sure everybody gets the resolution that's going to move them forward in their lives. And sometimes, like you said, that's not fair and people don't,

They might feel slighted, but that doesn't mean that you're not you're not doing that. So that's that's what I think the answer is, Jake. Can I ask another question? That was a beautiful answer, by the way, Britt. I'm sorry, Michelle. I'm pretty accurate. I'm pretty accurate. It really was. But I also say this. Britt, how do we help Michelle feel more comfortable not only appreciating her greatness, but just even taking your compliment? She's so uncomfortable, right?

And it's ridiculous. It's almost – and it's humility. It's not a false sort of like, oh, gee, it really is. She's really uncomfortable. Like I would love for her to feel comfortable and rest on her laurels, not just as a professional. That's easy for her. But as a person, as what the remarkable person. She brings so much to the world. She's such a kind – she's one of the kindest people I've ever met.

Seriously. And I met a lot of people. But Michelle, he's right. Here's and I will say I have been working on this actively because if somebody compliments me on my job or, oh, you have a great kid, I'm like, yeah, thanks. You know, like I have worked very hard for that. If somebody tells me that I'm kind or, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you did that for someone. I am very uncomfortable. And I think.

Michelle, we will talk about this in depth for hours over text messages. I'm positive. But understanding that our worth is that we are these good people. And until we acknowledge that we are really amazing humans as women, we

Not as powerhouses, but as women that deserve love. Like that's when we're going to feel comfortable dating and putting ourselves out there and being vulnerable because we know that we have that worth. But it's really hard and very uncomfortable. It's so uncomfortable. And the truth is, and I mean this personally,

My mother raised me to be kind to everyone. And I firmly believe that no matter what your station in life is, what you do for a living, everyone bleeds red. We're all the same. And everyone should be treated with a level of respect. And I cannot, the biggest example I always come up with is, I have two instances that come to mind. I had a waiter somewhere that completely screwed up my order, completely screwed it up.

And so sorry, so sorry, so sorry. I was like, if this is the worst thing that happens to me today, life's pretty good. I had another thing. I went to go buy a lotto ticket and this was in South Texas. And the poor cashiers were both known for how to use a lotto machine. So it took like 20 minutes. And when they finally got done, they kept apologizing, apologizing, apologizing. I'm like, guys, I'm fortunate enough to be able to buy a lotto ticket. And I said, so thanks for figuring it out. I appreciate it. Have a great day. And they're like,

man, we wish more people were like you. Which, because you could see them struggling, you could see them trying to figure out, but some people, like, how many times have y'all seen someone lose their shit in Starbucks?

It's coffee, people. It's coffee. I want to ask this real quick. I really believe that mood can affect environment and environment can affect mood. Okay. Correct. One of the things, so basically imagine this. Imagine, and this is, I don't want this to sound morbid, but imagine the last thing you leave into a room is a negative environment.

You know what I'm saying? Like a negative mood, a negative thing. How many times – I can't tell you how many times I've treated people with respect and they are elated –

that I could bring just a small morsel of positivity to their day. And I'm doing nothing different. All I'm doing is being kind and courteous, maybe asking them about their day, maybe asking them a question or two. It goes a long way. And I wish more people could understand that, is that don't be in a position where your negative mood can affect your environment. It really does not leave anything.

You in a good place, but also I think that we could learn a lot more from understanding and getting outside of our own feelings and our own position to understand that we do have an impact and we do have things that we can we can leave behind in a positive way. It is fantastic.

And Jake, you're so right. But it's as simple as telling someone coming down the street, man, that dress looks good on you. And it's a genuine, you think it and that because you never know what someone's going on in their life. You never know the horrors behind what we see, right? It's the little white picket fence thing. The white picket fence is bullshit. What's behind the fence is usually no one knows about. And if you are kind to someone, right?

And do something like that. It doesn't cost you anything. You all may change their entire day. You may change their entire month. It's so, I love giving compliments to people and to everybody. I do it to men or women when I can. And honestly, in a weird way to men, random, like, you know, if I see somebody and I'm like, oh, that's a really nice sweater or that sweater looks great on you because I don't think men get compliments. And I have a lot of thoughts about the...

Male loneliness epidemic. But I think that if we all do very simple things, like you said, Jake, just...

to the other humans that are out there with nothing in return, just a passing by comment, keep going about your day. It really does, I think, change that. And your little slip though, Jake, I think mood can infect the environment and it doesn't just affect it. Like it really becomes this thing that will grow. And I,

It's awful. And so, Jake, after hundreds of survivor interviews, what's the most surprising resilience strategy that you've seen or learned from the victims who have rebuilt their lives? Pure and utter need to survive. I have yet to see or hear someone who does not have the innate resilience.

instinct to want to survive. No matter how bad things get, you really realize that they're often left to this position of isolation, of loneliness, of second guessing their own mental capacity to exist. And I think that often the commonality really is survival, is that it goes from being a

questioning whether this is happening, being fearful,

survival and then it usually turns into anger it usually turns into advocacy it usually turns into the need to take what they've learned and not only help themselves but help other people and I think there's a very altruistic way to look at this is that so many of these advocates start out as victims and become survivors of these things because they don't often get the support they need but

But you realize if half these people become their own advocates and they're advocating for other people, that's a pretty strong community. And to your point, you know, you talk about my slip of affecting or infecting. It really does grow. And we've seen that. I mean, even with Strictly Stalking, it's become a network for people to grow and connect and feel less alone. And that's what I think the power of all of us now as professional podcasters are doing is.

are giving people the ability to share their stories, not just ours, but opening up our platforms in order for people to get positive with change. And that's a really important thing. And that didn't exist decades ago. You know, I mean, for all the negative, you know, things about social media and content, this is one of the few good ones, in my opinion, where people can really just have a platform to speak their piece and help others.

I love that, Jake. And they summarize that whole thing. Like to me, it's always been grit. Like the word grit to me is just the people that have the ability to survive. There's just this certain grit. And in a

what sounds like a contradictory way grace like grit and grace where it really just becomes about I need to survive and giving yourself grace but also giving the world a little bit of grace so that was such a great way to to to wrap up it's just the message is have grace it's it's

Doesn't cost much. Be kind. Doesn't cost much. And you'd be surprised at how much just doing those two things can change the world. I will say it also doesn't cost anything to be an asshole, and I will do that at different times. Listen, there are appropriate times to pull out the badass bitch card, for lack of a better word. And it's boundaries, right? It's like making sure that you're protecting yourself.

Michelle is so professional that imagine a scenario like this. Imagine Michelle walks in, they think, you know, stereotypically, Michelle could file a complaint or whatever, and they think they're getting what people consider, I'm not saying this, but an atypical Karen. We know the term Karen or whatever, but

Imagine them realizing who Michelle is, her stature in the community, in the legal community. Just imagine they think they're just dealing with some soccer mom that comes in and then all of a sudden they get from a Colwell Bowles attorney a long show of lock.

I always think – Yeah, they're in for a rude awakening. No, but that's the thing. Michelle does not – like Michelle carries herself as a powerful superhero with all her imagery and all her Instagram. She projects like a superhero, right? And I know in the court she does the same thing. Her whole costumes are color-coordinated. She's very poised with how she approaches and pushes herself out there.

But just imagine her going to like the drive-thru or going to pick up a Starbucks or whatever. They just think, oh, well, whatever, just this Austinite or whatever. But can you imagine pulling back the veneer? And I think that also happens on dates too. I can imagine with Michelle, it's like she's like, oh, this and that. Underplays fucking everything. Pardon my French.

and ends up being in this position where these guys are, holy shit, because they're really, they're really potentially dating a divorce attorney and a powerful one and a successful one at that. And one of the top ones in the, in their community. So if they fuck up with you, good luck, you know, are we dating the same guy? That's the least they have to worry about, you know? And you have a podcast. I know that some people that I've dated are real concerned. They're like, I don't want to end up on your podcast. I'm like, that's your choice.

Like if you, if you turn out to be crazy, you might, I, you know, Michelle with a microphone. I,

I wish we could have that opportunity. Oh, wait, we do. We do. We have me with a microphone coming up. You know, the joke in court was the court reporter kept telling me in my jury trial to turn on my microphone because he had it piped into his ears. And I was like, never in my career has anyone asked me to speak into the microphone. No one has a problem hearing me. I did for the jury trial. So tell me, when does Loveless Law come out?

July 1st. So excited. I had to give Jake, well, I'm sorry, Jake gave himself a self-imposed deadline. We've been talking about this thing since the 70s, and it's about time that we take this show on the road. I think that it's one of those things where...

We have a really solid tagline. It's where love turns lethal and justice gets real. Thank you so much. Congratulations. Thank you guys so much for joining. I'm so excited to see you in person. Same here. Oh, my God. I can't wait.

You can support the show by joining us on Apple Podcasts or Patreon. Episodes are available early and ad-free. Our executive producer is me, Brittany Ard. Our senior producer and editor is Sydney Gladue.

Sound engineering by Sean Simmons. Graphic design by Najella Shama. Opening theme by Youth Star and Miscellaneous. You probably think this Stories About You is a production of BDE Unlimited Productions.

You can follow me for updates at britney.ard on all social media platforms. If you like what we're doing, don't forget to hit that follow button wherever you're listening to this podcast. Give us a rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I love responding to comments on Spotify. Trolling the trolls is my new favorite pastime.

Take an Amex card with you on your morning coffee run and earn cash back. On a weekend trip, earn miles. See if you pre-qualified for an American Express card with no impact on your credit score. Learn more at americanexpress.com slash check dash four dash offers. Your credit score may be impacted if you accept a card. Terms apply.

Lowe's knows you want the best for dad. This Father's Day, help him take on any project with big deals on DeWalt. Right now, get a free XR8 amp hour battery when you buy select DeWalt tools. That's not all. Get up to two free select tools when you buy a select DeWalt 20-volt max battery kit. Maximum initial battery voltage measured without a workload is 20 volts. Nominal voltage is 18. ♪