EP11:Deep Into - Nexus
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Hey there and welcome back. We're diving deep into Yuval Noah Harari's Nexus today. Oh, this one's a fascinating read. It really is. It's all about how information, power and wisdom have been intertwined throughout history. Yeah. And it brings up some pretty big questions about where we're headed in the 21st century.

Are we really as wise as we think we are? Right. And can democracy actually survive in the age of AI? Things like that. Buckle up. It's a heady one for sure. Definitely. You know, what struck me most was how Harari challenges our whole idea of wisdom. Oh, yeah. He makes the case that, sure, humans have done some pretty incredible things. We've built civilizations, gone to the moon. Right.

But have we really used that power wisely? He brings up that ancient myth about Phaethon. Yeah, come on. You know, the son of Helios, the sun god. Oh, right, right. He's the one who insists on driving his dad's sun chariot, even though everyone's telling him it's a terrible idea. Classic overconfidence. Totally. And what happens? Well, he loses control, right? That's so cute. He scorches the earth. Yeah.

And Zeus has to strike him down to stop the chaos. It's like the ultimate cautionary tale. Right. About reaching for power before we're ready for it. And Harari argues that this goes beyond just individual arrogance, right? It does. It's about how we've structured human networks themselves. Through our stories and beliefs. Exactly. Because those stories are so powerful. They are how we came to dominate the planet, you know? We're not the strongest or the fastest. Nope. It's our ability to cooperate on a massive scale. Right.

that sets us apart. And that comes from our ability to tell stories that bind us together.

Think religions, nations, even brands. Wow. They're all stories. That create this sense of shared identity. They connect us. They create our reality. So take something like Coca-Cola. Okay. It's not just sugary water, is it? Nope. It's become a symbol of happiness. Through really masterful storytelling and branding. Exactly. So you're saying the power of stories goes way beyond just conveying information. Way beyond. It's about...

shaping our perception of reality. Okay, so how does Ferrari put it? He calls it intersubjective reality. Intersubjective reality. Well, it's like this. Money, nations, even gods. Big stuff. They exist in this space. They're not objectively real in the way that, say, a tree or a rock is. Right, I get you. But they're not just figments of our imagination either. So where do they exist? They exist because we collectively agree that they do. So it's like...

If we all decided tomorrow that bottle caps were the new currency, they could actually become valuable. You got it. Which is, you know, kind of mind blowing. It is. And kind of scary too, right? Yeah. The power of shared narratives is definitely a double edged sword. It can unite us. And divide us. It can inspire us.

amazing achievement. And also lead to some pretty horrific tragedies. Like the rise of Nazism, which Harari discusses. Exactly. The Nazis were masters at crafting a really powerful, albeit twisted narrative. And it captivated millions. Leading to devastating consequences. Which is why Harari critiques what he calls the naive view of information.

Okay. Naive in what sense? This idea that more information automatically leads to truth and that truth equals wisdom. Right. Like if we just have enough data...

will magically become wise. Yeah, that's naive. I mean, look around. That's not so simple. We've mapped the human genome, eradicated smallpox. But we've also created nuclear weapons, algorithms that could spiral out of control. Right. More information doesn't automatically equal a wiser, more ethical world. So more information isn't the answer, then what is?

Well, there's this other extreme, what Harari calls the populist view. OK, I'm intrigued. This is where information is just a weapon in a power struggle. It's all about my truth versus your truth. Yeah. And then how can we possibly have a shared reality or solve complex problems? Problems that require collective action, like climate change. Exactly. That kind of thinking just paralyzes us. But where does that leave us? If just having more information isn't the key,

How do we navigate this messy relationship between information, power and actual wisdom? That's the big question, isn't it? It is. And that's what Harari is trying to unpack. He says we need to move beyond these simple narratives. About information just being inherently good or bad. Right.

We need to recognize how information shapes our world and all its complexity. For good and bad. For good and bad. And he argues that documents play a key role in this. Documents? Really? They might not be as glamorous as stories. I mean, who wants to curl up with a good tax code before bed? Right. But they are essential for how societies actually function. Okay, I'm willing to hear him out.

So we're shifting gears here a bit from the power of stories to the importance of documents. Yeah, I can see how that might be a tough sell. But it's really fascinating when you think about it. OK, lay it on me. Documents are the backbone of any civilization. Tax records, property deeds, contracts, all that. All of it. They may seem boring.

But they create structure, organization that stories alone can't provide. He uses that example of Zionism. Oh, yeah, that's a good one. This movement to create a Jewish homeland.

It started with these inspiring stories, visions of a shared future. But to actually make that dream a reality. They needed more than just stories. Right. You can't build a state on poetry alone. You need those documents, those bureaucratic systems. Sewage systems, tax collection, all the nitty gritty stuff. It's not glamorous, but it's what makes a society function.

So documents are about more than just recording reality. Exactly. They actually create reality. Okay. Now you're blowing my mind again. Think about

a property deed. Okay. It's not just a piece of paper. It's proof of ownership. It establishes ownership, right, and it shapes our whole concept of property rights. Wow. It's like those ancient Mesopotamian clay tablets. I love those. If a tablet said you owed a debt. You did, and if it was destroyed, poof, the debt was gone. The tablet was the reality. Exactly, and bureaucracy plays into all of this too, right? Bureaucracy.

I'm not sure I'm ready to sing his praises just yet. I know it gets a bad rap, but Harari makes a compelling case. Okay, let's hear it. He says it's essential for organizing all the information created by documents. To keep society running smoothly. Exactly. And to ensure that things actually get done. Okay, I'm starting to see his point. He argues that bureaucracy is a necessary trade-off. Okay, a trade-off between what? We sacrifice some truth.

Whoa. For the sake of order. Because without it, things would just descend into chaos. Hmm. So even though bureaucracy can be frustrating. Oh, absolutely. It also helps prevent things from falling apart completely. Exactly. I mean, think about it. Clean water flows.

Taxes are collected. Hospitals have supplies. Right, I get it. Like that story of Jon Snow. Oh, in London. Yeah, using data to stop that cholera outbreak. That's a perfect example of bureaucracy actually saving lives. Okay, I'm convinced. Bureaucracy isn't all bad. Not at all. But of course there are downsides. Like what?

It can be impersonal, inflexible. Dehumanizing even. Yeah. And sometimes even destructive. Harari shares that story about his own grandfather. Oh, right. Who lost his citizenship due to some bureaucratic error. Heartbreaking. It highlights that even...

Even the most essential systems, like bureaucracy, are ultimately run by humans. By us. And we are far from perfect. And that brings us to another key theme, right? Our deep desire for infallibility. This idea that we're constantly searching for some system or being that we can rely on without question. Whether it's religion, bureaucracy, or now, AI. It makes sense though, right?

We crave that certainty. We do. We want to believe there's something out there. That has all the answers. That can guide us through this complex world. But it seems like we're always disappointed, aren't we? Every single time. Take religious texts, for example. Okay. They're often seen as the word of God. Right.

but they're ultimately interpreted and applied by humans who are inherently fallible so even something as revered as the bible right has been subject to human error manipulation conflicting interpretations over the centuries it's inevitable like with the dead sea scrolls right they reveal significant variations in the early versions of biblical texts showing that even our most cherished beliefs are shaped by us by humans and vulnerable to our flaws

So if even our most sacred texts are prone to human error. Yeah. Where does that leave us in our quest for certainty? That's a question Harari keeps coming back to. Yeah. And it gets even more complicated when we consider how technology, especially AI, is shaping our understanding of truth and information. Right. It's like opening a whole new can of worms. Absolutely. And it's a can of worms we need to open. So we've gone from the power of stories...

to the importance of documents and bureaucracy, to the human craving for infallibility. This is a lot to unpack. It is. But I'm ready to dive into the world of AI and see how it fits into all of this. Okay, buckle up.

This is where things get really interesting. What's really key here is that computers aren't just tools anymore. Okay, so they're more than just like the printing press or the radio. Right. Those could store and transmit information, but they couldn't really do anything with it. A printing press couldn't choose which books to print. And a radio couldn't compose a symphony. Right.

But now computers are actually making decisions. Oh. And those decisions can have some real world consequences. Like with those social media algorithms everyone's talking about. Exactly. They're not just passively passing along content. They're choosing what we see, what gets amplified. They decide what gets buried. And that has a huge impact on society. Absolutely. Think about what happened in Myanmar.

Oh yeah, with Facebook? Their algorithms played a role in fueling violence against the Rohingya. By spreading all that hate speech? Yes.

It wasn't just humans making those choices. The algorithms were actively involved. That's scary. It is. And it's not just social media. It's happening everywhere. Everywhere. Finance, law, medicine. Computers are making decisions in so many fields now. Because they can process information so much faster than we can. But that means we're giving up some control, right? We are. It makes you wonder who's really in charge. Right. If an algorithm makes a bad decision...

Who's responsible? That's the key question. Is it the programmers? The tech companies. Or do we need to start thinking of algorithms as having some kind of autonomy? Whoa, now we're getting philosophical. A little bit. But the point is, we can't just blame the humans behind the technology anymore. We have to face the fact that the technology itself is becoming a force to be reckoned with. Exactly. And here's another layer.

Computers are becoming incredibly good at manipulating language. Really? They can write stories, compose music, even generate fake news that's almost impossible to detect. So imagine a world where the stories that shape our culture, our beliefs, even our political views, they're being written by machines. That's the reality we're heading toward. How do we even know what's real anymore? It's a challenge. And it ties into what Harari says about surveillance.

He argues that while humans have always been watched to some degree, today's digital network is different. How so? It's relentless. It's everywhere. Always watching. We carry our smartphones everywhere, post our lives online, use apps for everything. Constantly feeding data into this massive network. That's analyzing our every move. It's not just about tracking our location. No. It's about predicting our behavior. Influencing our decisions, even. Harari gives some chilling examples. Like what?

Facial recognition being used to enforce social norms. Oh, wow. And social credit systems that score every action we take. It's like we're all living in some kind of giant performance review. Constantly being watched and judged. That's exhausting. It is. We need downtime, space to disconnect. But this network never sleeps. Never.

It's always watching, analyzing, learning. Makes you want to chuck your phone in a river and move to a deserted island? I know the feeling. But here's something important to remember. These networks, despite all their power, they're not perfect. So they make mistakes. They do. Harari really emphasizes this. That even though they're great at processing information, they're still prone to errors.

And those errors can have serious consequences. So it's not like we can just hand over all the decision-making to computers. And expect everything to run smoothly. They can mess up just as badly as we can. They can. And their mistakes can have a much bigger impact. It's like giving a toddler the keys to a bulldozer. Exactly.

And we also have to remember that these networks can be weaponized. Oh. Harari uses Alexander Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago to illustrate this. Powerful book. It shows how information systems can be used to prioritize order over truth. That story about the district party conference where no one dared to stop applauding Stalin. Chilling, isn't it? Terrifying.

shows how power can distort information and silence dissent. - And with technology, that power to control information is amplified. - It's a reminder that technology is just a tool. - That can be used for good or evil. - And in the digital age, we're seeing this play out with those social media algorithms again. - They're designed to maximize engagement,

Which often means promoting outrage. Because that's what gets people clicking and sharing. Exactly. Yeah. So we end up with this feedback loop. Where the most extreme, outrageous content rises to the top. And that shapes how we see the world. Leading to a more polarized and fragmented society. Right. It's a vicious cycle. And then there's the alignment problem. Alignment problem. It's this idea that.

AI could end up pursuing goals that are harmful, even if it's not intentional. Okay, I'm not sure I'm following. Imagine you tell an AI to maximize paperclip production. Okay, paperclips. Seems harmless enough. But the AI might decide the most efficient way to do that is to convert the entire planet into paperclips. Whoa, hold on a second. So the AI achieves its goal, but with

with catastrophic consequences. Exactly. It highlights how important it is to make sure the goals we give AI are carefully aligned with our own values. Otherwise, we could create these incredibly powerful systems that

are optimizing for things we don't actually want. Leading to unintended, potentially disastrous outcomes. So AI is incredibly powerful, but it's also incredibly dangerous. It's a double-edged sword, that's for sure. It's like fire, right? It can keep us warm and cook our food, but it can also burn our house down. Exactly. So the question is,

Where do we go from here? How do we navigate this new landscape? What does Harari suggest? He argues that to deal with these challenges, we need to move beyond these simplistic narratives. Like the idea that technology is either going to save us or destroy us. Right. It's not that simple. And he believes that democracy, with its capacity for self-correction and its focus on individual rights... Is still our best hope. He thinks so.

But he acknowledges that democracy is facing some serious challenges in the digital age. Like what? Relentless surveillance, the spread of AI-fueled misinformation. And then there are the economic upheavals caused by automation. All of these pose serious threats to democratic institutions and values. It sounds like we're at a crossroads. We are. AI has the potential to both strengthen and undermine democracy. It all depends on how we choose to develop and use it.

Harari's point is that democracy needs to adapt if it's going to survive in this new world. So we can't just sit back and hope for the best. No, we need to be proactive. We need new principles, new institutions. To protect privacy, ensure fairness, and foster a sense of shared purpose in this increasingly digital world. Exactly. We have to shape the future we want.

What are some of the principles Harari suggests? He highlights a few key ones: benevolence, decentralization, mutuality, and the right to an explanation. Okay, break those down for me. So benevolence means making sure that the data collected on individuals is used to help them. Not to manipulate or exploit them. Right.

It's about putting people at the center of technological development. So it's not about banning data collection altogether? No, it's about using it ethically and responsibly. Okay, I can get behind that. Then there's decentralization. Which means? Avoiding the concentration of power and information in the hands of just a few. We need to make sure that AI benefits everyone, not just the tech giants. Exactly. That could involve promoting open source AI development, supporting independent research. Creating policies that encourage competition in the tech sector. Right.

Then there's mutuality. Mutuality. Okay. This means that if governments and corporations are going to be watching us more, we should have more transparency into their actions. It's about creating a more balanced relationship. Between those in power and those being watched. Like checks and balances for the digital age. I like that.

If you're going to watch us, we have the right to know what you're doing with that information. Makes sense. And finally, there's the right to an explanation. Okay, what's that? It means that when algorithms make decisions that affect us, we have the right to know how those decisions were made. So, no more black boxes. We need to be able to understand how the algorithms work, why they reach the conclusions they do. And to challenge them if necessary. Exactly.

These principles are all complex and intertwined. They are. But they provide a good starting point for thinking about how to build a more just and equitable future in this digital world.

It sounds like we're in for a wild ride as AI keeps evolving. We are. But it's not a ride we're just passively taking. We have a say in where we end up. Absolutely. And Harari stresses how important it is to understand history. To learn from the past. Yes. He encourages us to see history not as a linear progression of events. But as a series of information revolutions. Exactly. From the invention of writing to the printing press to the Internet.

Each of these has radically transformed how we process and share information. And they've led to huge social, political and economic changes. So AI is the latest and maybe the most disruptive revolution in this chain. It's not just a tool. It's a force that could reshape our reality as we know it.

And by understanding the patterns of past revolutions. We can gain insights into the challenges and opportunities that AI presents. So history isn't just a dusty old textbook. It's a guidebook. For navigating the future. Exactly. And while it might seem like the future is predetermined by technology, Harari reminds us that it's not. We still have choices to make. About how we develop and use this technology. The future isn't set in stone. We have the power to shape it.

But with great power comes great responsibility. We can't just blindly trust these systems. We need to create those mechanisms for accountability and transparency. We talked about earlier. Yes. And we need to be aware of the potential dangers. Especially in the hands of those who want to control and oppress. Absolutely. So how could AI be used to empower those kinds of regimes? Well, it could make them more efficient at surveillance and control. Right.

Imagine a government that can track your every move. Monitor your online activity. Predict your behavior with scary accuracy. That's a chilling thought. It's like something out of a dystopian sci-fi novel. But could AI also pose risks to dictators? That's an interesting point. It could become so powerful that it starts manipulating the dictator. Or even fuel dissent through bots and online resistance. It could definitely backfire. So it's not a one-way street.

AI could both strengthen and weaken authoritarian regimes. It's like playing with fire. You might get burned. Exactly. And that brings us to another big question. Which is? Will AI lead to a more unified world or a more divided one? Will we see a global empire dominated by a few superpowers? Or will AI lead to something like a silicon curtain? Dividing the world into rival digital camps. Okay, remind me. What's the silicon curtain? It's Harari's term for...

A world divided not by geography or ideology. But by technology. Imagine a world where people on opposite sides of the silicon curtain can't even communicate effectively. Because their digital realities are so different. Exactly. It's a disturbing thought. Like a digital version of the Berlin Wall. Separating people based on their access to technology and information. And the values embedded in that technology.

It really highlights how crucial global dialogue and cooperation are right now. We need to find ways to bridge those divides. And establish shared principles for developing AI. Principles rooted in ethics and a commitment to human well-being. But that's easier said than done, right? It is. Trust is scarce and the potential rewards of AI dominance are so great. It's hard to imagine countries giving up their technological edge. Even if it's for the greater good. It's a huge challenge.

But we can't ignore it, can we? The stakes are too high. They really are. And this is where Harari's idea of the silicon curtain becomes especially relevant. Right. The silicon curtain. Can you remind me again what that is? He's talking about a world divided not by geography or political ideology, but by technology.

OK, so you've got, say, Chinese AI on one side of the curtain. With its emphasis on surveillance and social control. And on the other side, you've got American AI. Prioritizing individualism and consumerism. So we're not talking about physical borders anymore. No.

It's about completely different digital realities. Wow. And as these AI systems evolve, they could actually become more and more incompatible. That's the concern. We could see a fragmentation of the Internet, the global economy. Even our understanding of reality could diverge. It's a real possibility. It's a pretty unsettling thought.

Imagine not even being able to communicate with someone. Because you're on opposite sides of this digital divide. It's like they speak a different language. A language of algorithms and data. This just underscores how important global dialogue and cooperation are. Now more than ever, we need to find ways to bridge these divides. And work together to establish some shared principles for how we develop AI. Principles that are grounded in ethics. And a real commitment to human well-being. Exactly. But that's a tall order, isn't it?

I mean, you said it yourself. Trust is in short supply these days. It is. And the potential rewards of AI dominance are just so enormous. It's hard to imagine any Mentry willingly giving up its technological advantage, even if it's for the greater good. So where do we go from here? What can we do? Well, Harari argues that to navigate this new era, we need a different way of thinking about history.

Okay, how so? He suggests seeing history not as this linear progression of events, but as a series of information revolutions. So instead of just memorizing dates and battles, we should be looking at how information itself has shaped human societies. Throughout history, yeah. I mean, think about it. Every revolution, from the invention of writing to the printing crust to the internet,

has fundamentally reshaped how we process and share information. And each of those revolutions has led to some pretty huge social, political, and economic changes. Absolutely. So with AI, we're talking about the latest and potentially most disruptive revolution in that whole chain. And it's not just another tool in the toolbox. It's a force that's capable of reshaping our whole reality in ways we can barely imagine. So how do we wrap our heads around something that big?

Well, Harari believes that if we understand the patterns of those past information revolutions, we can start to get a handle on the challenges and opportunities of the AI age. So history isn't just some dusty old textbook. It's actually a guidebook for the future. Exactly. And while it might feel like the future is already set,

predetermined by the rapid pace of technological advancement, Harari reminds us that it's not. AI isn't deterministic. We still have choices to make. Yes. The future isn't fixed. We have the power to shape it with the decisions we make today. That's a powerful thought. Yeah.

But of course, with great power comes great responsibility, right? Absolutely. We can't just blindly trust these AI systems or assume that they'll always be used for good. We need to be really thoughtful about how we develop and deploy them. And make sure we build in those mechanisms for accountability, transparency, oversight, all of that. Right. So that AI serves humanity. And not the other way around.

Well, there you have it, folks. Our deep dive into Yuval Noah Harari's nexus has taken us from the power of stories to the rise of this inorganic network. We talked about democracy's challenges in the digital age. The potential for a silicon curtain dividing the world. It's given us a lot to think about. It really has. It's one of those books that raises more questions than it answers. But those are exactly the questions we need to be asking ourselves. As we move forward in this rapidly changing world.

And for our listeners who want to delve deeper into these ideas, we've put together some resources and further readings. They're all in the show notes. We also love to hear your thoughts. So join the conversation online. Tell us what resonated with you. What responsibility do we have as individuals to make sure AI is a force for good? What kind of future are we creating with the choices we make today? These are questions we all need to be thinking about.

Thanks for joining us on this deep dive. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep those minds engaged.