Is everyone having better sex than me?
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Hey ladies, if you're new here, welcome. This is about to be your favourite podcast about women's health, relationships and yes, of course, sex.

Here at Ladies We Need To Talk, we really go there with open and honest conversations about the nitty gritty of intimacy. So when we got the call up to do a live show at the Sydney Opera House for the All About Women Festival, we thought, hell yes, of course, we'll be there. A chance to meet some of our smart babin listeners at the most iconic building in the world. Sign us the hell up.

Hmm, but what should we talk about? Sex, of course. More specifically, we wanted to answer a burning question that you, the listeners, ask us a hell of a lot. Is my sex life boring? Am I too vanilla?

So, friends, dim the lights, take off your bra and grab the popcorn because I'm Yumi Steins and, ladies, we need to talk about why it feels like everyone else is having better sex. APPLAUSE

So, we've got an amazing panel here today. Georgia Grace is bringing us the sexual education that we wish we'd had in high school. She's a certified sexologist and relationship therapist. Her new book, which I highly recommend, is called The Modern Guide to Sex. Now, just to make things slightly tricky for our podcast audience, we have two Alexes. Like, could we not have worked that out?

But furthest away from me is Alex Gorman, who is lifestyle editor at Guardian Australia and her brand new book, All Women Want. In it, Alex is on a mission to find out why heterosexual women aren't getting their fair share of the orgasm pie.

She took her research so seriously that she even visited a 600-person sex party. Thanks for taking one for the team, Alex Gorman. It was my absolute favourite. APPLAUSE

And sandwiched between our two sexperts and somehow looking surprisingly unintimidated is our second Alex. We're going to call you Alex Lee, first and last name. Alex Lee is a writer, TV presenter, comedian with a resume longer than a tantric sex workshop. What Alex Lee doesn't know about sex could probably fill its own book, but she knows how to make people laugh, and if you can't laugh about sex, then you're probably doing it wrong. Please welcome our three guests.

OK, Georgia, let's start with you. If we're talking about better sex, everyone is having better sex than me, what does that mean? I think often people think it is about how much they're having sex and the rate in which they're orgasming. But frequently when I'm speaking with clients in session, better sex is about the experience. It's about what drives them to sex. And so much of the goal or so much of the focus is around either penetration and how much you're penetrating each other's bodies...

Or orgasm and how much you're orgasming. But then when we take a step back and I ask, what is it that is driving you to want to work on this? And we actually get so many different and much more useful and interesting answers. And that's...

around connection or pleasure or exploration or because they want to transcend the mundane or they want to try this new thing or they want their queerness to be validated. So I think that because we don't talk about this enough, it is around quantity but often when we're really understanding better sex it's about the experience that people feel

before, during and after it. Alex Gorman, is that what your research reflects as well? Yeah, it's kind of amazing how hard it is to access a pleasure-focused sex ed. But I would say that divorced women over 50 are having better sex than pretty much everyone. Really? Yeah, from my interviews, they were the ones who were really getting it. Tell us more about that.

So having really great sex is often about not giving a fuck and then that's the way that you get to be fucked the way you want. And divorced women over 50, they know themselves, they know what they want, they won't put up with things that are subpar and so they can go out and seek amazing adventures or just seek really beautiful, intimate experiences without hang-ups.

And is that about feeling emboldened to ask for what you want? Yeah, it's about feeling emboldened to ask for what you want and it's also about feeling emboldened not to settle for what you don't want. And I guess also the big conundrum, and this is what sex educators keep realising, is that sometimes it's hard to figure out what you want. Yeah, especially when you're younger, there are so many different pressures and questions that float around and with time you learn...

not to care as much about what other people are doing. And I think that because they're not asking the question, is everyone else having better sex than me? That's why they're having better sex than the rest of us. So we're all wasting our time here today. Alex Lee, what's your take on this, that everyone might be having better sex than you? Oh, I imagine they are. I hope they are. If this was the limit...

That'd be terrible. No. You know, I've got two kids, one's six and two, and they take up a lot of time and energy. Yeah, so I hope everyone's having better, more interesting sex than me. There's nothing quite like parenthood to put sex kind of in the recycling. Yeah. But, you know, that being said, like, I do, you know, I have great sex, but I, like, it's nice. LAUGHTER I like it. LAUGHTER

But it's not, you know, anything you'd call up a friend about and be like, oh, my God, did you know what I did last night? Alex Gorman, in your research, your extensive research, did you ever meet people or one person that made you think, whoa, yep, they...

are having great sex? One of the first questions I asked people, like I studied 55 women about their love lives anonymously, and the first question I asked all of them was, are you happy with your love life? And the folks who had a very strong affirmative, yeah, I'm really happy, that's all it took for me to go, they're having great sex. Okay. And that can look like a million different things. Like one of the women who said that she was happy with her love life was celibate, but

But she had great sex with herself. Georgia, does that reflect what you see with your clients? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it brings into question this term that we talk about a lot, which is like sex neutrality. And not everyone will be on board with the concept of sex neutrality because a lot of people want to celebrate sex and celebrate their sex life.

But if we can go into sex and be non-attached to the outcome and to look at it as something that it can be a part of my life but that we may go through periods of time where we've got kids and there's so many other things that we need to do and to be okay with that and to know that we are kind of going through these phases in life where our sex life will change.

And I would say that it is divorced women, but it's also lesbians who are statistically more sexually satisfied. And I think that what we need to do is look at these sexual scripts. And lesbians are often having to flip the sexual script that they're moving away from the idea that sex is just penis in vagina and they're getting creative. They're taking time to build arousal. They're focusing

on external stimulation, they may be using toys. So we could all clear up sex a lot and we could turn to lesbians to teach us about it. So what I'm getting here is that to have great sex, we need to be less outcomes focused as you described, be less focused on penetrative sex and the outcome of orgasm and clear it up a bit, you know, rewrite the script. I think, am I getting that right? Mm-hmm.

The thing that we're not putting in position here is the partner, particularly in a heterosexual situation, the male partner. Alex Gorman, can you kick us off talking about the role that that partner plays in having really good sex? So to begin with, sexual shame and problems with sexual function are an STD. If your partner has significant amounts of sexual shame...

particularly for straight men, he can transmit that to you by kind of

questioning you, maybe slut-shaming you, maybe not being receptive to feedback, but it's also about the state of your relationship as a whole. So if you've got issues with conflict in your relationship or if you're carrying a really disproportionate level of the mental load, then you're probably not going to have the mental space for interesting sex and additionally you're going to be too tired and stressed to...

I mean, I think it's worth thinking about sex as a hobby.

So, having a great hobby takes time, it takes emotional energy, intellectual energy, it takes a bit of space, and it takes a partner, if you're in a relationship, who is willing to support and encourage you in that form of flourishing. And additionally, if you've got two kids under seven and you're working full-time, you probably don't have time to climb Mount Kilimanjaro or...

crochet an enormous blanket. And it's the same with sex. Like, there's only so much time in the day. And if you just want to flop out on the couch after having worked really hard, then done a second shift, raising your kids, like, you don't need a hobby and you don't need to spend a lot of time thinking about sex in that phase of life. That's amazing.

I'm so hypothetically on board with more interesting sex and kink and stuff like that, but I'm like, it just seems like a really big sort of creative undertaking. It is. And I don't know if I've got time for that right now. There's logistics, there's scheduling, sometimes you have to go out and buy props. It's like putting on a production. Exactly. Is anybody here really tired?

really tired when I hear about polyamorous couples and stuff and I'm like, you need a spreadsheet for this shit. But I like that idea, Alex Gorman, that you can kind of have seasons of not wanting too much of the crocheting the big blanket, you know? Just not in the mood. But what you're saying also is that you need to have great communication with that partner. And aren't we finding, I mean, this whole point of this podcast is

is that people really struggle to communicate about this stuff. Yeah, I spoke to a marriage counsellor who told me, "People make assumptions and take things personally." And I was like, "Oh, my gosh, that sentence has just explained every interpersonal dispute that has ever taken place." And I think if you say to your partner, "Hey, can we try it this way?" They might make assumptions and take it personally.

And being open to giving and receiving feedback is something that most of us aren't that great at, not just with sex, but with all sorts of different things. There's a reason a performance review at your job is heavily structured, and it's because if you let people do it however they wanted, it would not go well. Yeah, it'd be a blood bar. So are you saying we should do performance reviews of our partners? LAUGHTER

I mean, if a performance review means checking in, saying, "Hey, what might you be interested in trying? What's not working for you at the moment?" Then, yeah, we should do performance reviews. Georgia Grace, you see couples as clients all the time.

How can we better our communication around this very touchy topic? Yeah, I think we need to get comfortable with not being experts in it at the start. And there is this assumption that when it comes to sex or when you like someone or you're attracted to them, then your sex life will just be amazing, that you'll seamlessly rip each other's clothes off and roll around the walls and... LAUGHTER

climax in a heap at the same time each time you have sex and that is just like completely impossible because our bodies don't work in that way and when we see sex as this thing that should just be natural and it's not quite working often couples will see it as a sign and they'll be like is there something wrong with me is there something wrong with our relationship does this mean that we're not compatible or we don't work

And I think that sexual communication is something that we learn. And so often in session, couples will say, "Oh, this is actually quite easy. Why haven't we been speaking about this? Why don't we do this more?" But I think the interesting thing here is when we're talking about partners, often when I'm working with the topic of desire, it'll be the partner with lower desire who will present in session first. And they will say, "I have no sex drive or I don't know where it's gone."

but the person with higher desire is at home, they think that they're fine, they think that they're normal and their partner needs to meet them. But when we can see these sexual concerns as relational issues, we really need to work on it together and look at the different responsibilities of both people at play, because to your point,

the mental load and being really stressed or things going on at work or the state of the world being absolutely fucking terrifying right now. Like, all of these things affect our pleasure and our orgasms and our sex life. Yeah, and I mean, that's something that I'm sure everybody can agree on is you've got to put the sexual body in the context in which they exist to talk about pleasure and to talk about being able to access that pleasure.

Georgia, it's a basic question, but I think it's worth asking. Do orgasms matter? Yeah, I think they do matter. They matter for a lot of us because they are fun. It feels nice. It feels good. However...

it's as important to remove the pressure and it's this kind of delicate dance around it because people often come to see me so that they can orgasm more and feel more pleasure but actually the counter-intuitive thing that we need to do is take the pressure off because when we feel pressure to orgasm,

it's unlikely that we will. And there's that classic porn thing where people will say, I just want to make you come. And I think that when so many people hear, I just want to make you come, it's guaranteed that they're not going to come. So yeah, they do matter. They're really important. But we do need to find a way to make sure that it's just not the only thing that is important during sex.

Alex Gorman, if that sort of desire for intimacy and its absence seems to be written large all over modern dating and hook-up culture...

That intimacy being absent. Yeah, and intimacy is a really important component of eroticism for most people most of the time. So I interviewed a few men who women nominated as being incredible in bed, and every single one of them said it's impossible to separate sex from emotion.

But if you don't create that intimacy and that connection and most of all that trust, it's really hard to have good sex. You can't get into your body if in your head you're going, do I trust them, do I trust them, do I trust them? Yeah, and because people often conflate emotion with love.

So they think that if they're having casual sex or a one night hookup and they feel something towards this person, then that's bad because it's breaking the boundary of this one off thing. But emotion is there to make us feel more and to have a

better experience and you know it's probably really good if you're attracted to the person that you're having sex with you know it's probably really nice if you're feeling safe with them so you may actually fall in love I think many people may have said that they've fallen in love after a one night stand and that's you know you need to figure that out and what you do with that next but

I'm the champion for normalising emotions. And I think, like, one of the feelings that is so critical, whether it's in a casual encounter or something more long-term, is the feeling of care. You're supposed to care about what the other person is feeling and thinking, and someone who...

dismisses the idea of caring for you is probably not someone who is going to have great sex with you. So if they're a person who rebuffs your offer of holding hands, like,

that person probably doesn't care about your feelings. Do you think that absence of care is because of the influence of porn? I think porn plays a role, but I think that it is much bigger than that. Heterosexual relationships only, but there's this concept called the man box, which is every rule about what it means to act like a man, and within the man box...

care is not a big component. And so I think that while porn, which focuses on instant gratification for male sexuality, does feed into that, it is so much bigger than that. It's about all of the ways in which straight men are socialised to care less. And that's something that is policed by other men and

it's something that can be policed by women as well. But when men can learn to care and let go of the idea that it is somehow shameful or makes you less of a man to care, then you end up having much better sex. I love this idea that Alex Gorman interviewed men who were nominated by women as being great lovers.

Like, can you just go to your own phone and who would you... LAUGHTER Like, there'd be a lot of scrolling until you find that one guy. Can we get some sort of database? Well, I'll tell you what, when I put that call-out out, I got four nominations and about 40 messages either saying, good luck, or...

saying, please pass that number on. Because the thing that you pointed out that they had in common, they could all build trust fairly quickly. So even a one-night stand, there was a sense that they cared and that they were engaged with the humanity of that sex partner. That's exactly right. And that's really hard to do, isn't it? Georgia, do you think that's hard to do? No, not necessarily. I think that it is a skill that you can learn. But, I mean, if we think about sex...

and think about empathy, really. Like, you are getting your naked bodies together and you're doing whatever you choose to do. But if you have empathy for this body and if you're really interested in them having a good time, then, like, that's just the foundations. And it's really interesting because I have the unique position in being in session with men who care deeply, who are so focused on...

giving their partner a good time that it affects their arousal and desire. They want to learn, they want to be good and for straight men their top concern is learning how to give their partner a good experience. So they care. However what

A lot of men say they don't have is the information or the tools and they feel like they're going into sex with this performance and their performance is around I must have a rock hard dick and be able to fuck for 40 minutes. You just described my nightmare. Yeah that's a similar response I hear. That is one way to have sex but that is the sex that we see in porn and that you know that the

good, like, for some people. And it looks good because that's the only purpose of porn is that it's meant to look good. I've interviewed adult actors. The sex that they're having does not feel good for them. Like, even missionary position, that's planking for five minutes. That doesn't feel good because you have to have enough gap to be able to let the camera in. LAUGHTER

People who learn about sex from porn aren't learning how to have good sex, they're learning how to be porn actors. Yeah, they're learning how to have aesthetically appealing sex for the specific context of, like, a camera getting up in there. That's also why male porn stars have huge dicks, because it's easier to film. LAUGHTER

Nothing to do with the fact that big dicks are kind of fun? I mean, they are kind of fun. But, no, it's like the logistics of a camera set-up, especially, like, modern hardcore porn, has a lot of, like, hyper-focus on genitals, and if you've got a big dick, there's more space for the camera to get in there.

So, when we look at porn, we have to remember, this is entertainment and porn actors are stunt people. Like, they are athletes, they are highly skilled, they have trained for this. OK, let's talk about kink. Alex Lee, does vanilla sex equal boring sex? No, I don't think so. I mean, I think there is probably a pressure out there that if you're not doing something...

kinky or different that it is boring but I mean it's what's your personal experience of it you know is the question and what are you getting out of sex and if there's a connection and a fulfillment there then you know maybe you don't need those extra bells and whistles there's bells and whistles yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

I've got to get some of those bells. But, you know, I think that it's a great way for people to start communicating. Yeah, because I imagine, you know, you have to talk so much about what you want and why you want it and how it's going to feel and what it's like before and during and after. But isn't that the thing is, like, people aren't talking about it and the vanilla script, which is the sort of, you know...

kissing, fondling, a bit of oral, P&B penetration, orgasm, end. That if you follow that script, which I think is technically vanilla, then you can absolutely avoid any conversation, which is a lot of people really want to just never have to talk about the sex that they're having. Yeah, sex is one of the only things in life that's easier done than said for many people. And I think a lot of it is like, especially if you've got like a long-term partner, you don't

You sort of want to, like, we'll have to talk about this in a session, Georgia. But it's like you want them to know without you having to tell them. Like, I think there's this sort of narrative that, like, you've got some spiritual connection and they should know what you want at all times, which, when I say it out loud, is insane. Well, I mean, one of the elements of the straight sex script is that for sex to work, it has to be psychic, and particularly that...

The man has to be the one who really knows what he's doing, which is impossible because, and I'm going to throw to Georgia here, talk to us about how different human sexuality is. Oh, I mean, like, look at all of our faces. They're all different. So, like, of course, the way that we experience sex will be different too. Wait, are we all having sex with our face? Yeah. You can tell a lot about someone's sex life based on their face. No, that's not fact. Of course we're different, but...

I guess we would look at it as our sexual fingerprint, that all of our fingerprints are different so all of our sex lives will be different too, but

because we are so desperate, I guess, to fit in or to be normal or to not be too freaky or to not be too much or our body not to be broken, then we often will turn to others to ascertain whether we're normal and whether we're doing it OK. And that just comes down to basic, like, sex ed, I believe. Like, I think that sex ed can solve that issue in supporting people and really recognising that it...

it's actually really exciting to be different and it's actually really exciting to figure out who you are as a sexual person and I think it's really unfortunate that we're seeing this sort of vanilla shaming come in because it's almost like the pendulum has swung away from slut shaming to vanilla shaming and I think vanilla shaming is sexist and homophobic because the

vanilla sex is often about missionary as you were saying like kissing hand stuff maybe oral and for a lot of people with vulvas who I speak to they will say that they need time to build arousal because vanilla sex is often also thought of as slow sex they want external stimulation and it's just like slapping shame on shame on shame but it's just packaged differently and it is

you should be wanting really hardcore or advanced sexual acts. You shouldn't be OK with just vanilla sex. And I think that that is, yeah, adding a whole new wave of pressure to people. And I have to back up what you're saying, Georgia, because in the interviews I've done for my work with...

late teenagers, so people in their 18, 19, 20, they're saying the same thing, that they're expected to go to these quite tertiary sexual activities, that they're not really even interested in trying, but it's part of the expectation. I think...

as George has said, there's been this pendulum swing where now there are a lot of people who are yumming their own yucks and going, oh, I feel like I have to do this because that's what it means to have cool sex. And you don't. But if you want to, you can. It's so true. And in the learning I've done around consent, it is about going, do I actually

do this and consulting with yourself and trying to be in touch with that body and hearing its feedback, whether I'm responding positively to this idea or not. Now, I wanted to get to kink. Alex Gorman, we've got an idea in all our heads about what kinky is, but how would you define kinky sex? I would define kinky sex as horny community theatre. So, there is...

What? Yeah, so it's about, like, maybe there are props involved. Maybe it's about power exchange or a degree of play acting. Whereas vanilla sex is more like horny running club, where, like, you can go for a run with just your body and it's pretty good and it releases endorphins. Horny community theatre, a bit more elaborate. Georgia, in your work...

you often get the question, how much sex should I be having? It's a real insecurity and it doesn't seem to be curable should we be worried about our stats. Well, the word should is really interesting and I don't think when we're driven to sex by should, it's going to make us want to have more sex. So I never give the number around the average amount of sex people are having because I

you can Google it, but also people will come to session and they will say, "I haven't been doing this, I haven't been hitting my numbers." And instead of focusing on the pleasure around it, they're focusing on like just putting it on their priority list of things to do.

However, I think for a lot of people they will identify at some point that they want to have more sex and that will be really useful for them to have a conversation with their partner about that because it feels like it's important for them or it's a big part of their relationship. But when we're looking at the word, should I be having more or better sex,

perhaps we could look at what would drive you to wanting more sex or how could you redefine your sex life so that it was more about pleasure. And that is almost always redefining it away from just penetration alone. Like, that can still exist and that can be really important and really fun for you but how can you learn about different types of sex because all the research shows that it's

when we focus on pleasure and when we focus on the things that turn us on, you will want and you will have more sex. And if we think about the word average, like, "Oh, I have to get my averages up," like, who wants an average sex life? You want your 10,000 steps and your two routes a week, don't you? Okay, I've got one last question I want everybody on the panel to answer, if possible.

What's the one thing that you would suggest to people in this room if they want to start having better sex today? What can they do? Have a wank and learn what works for your body, learn what pleases you, because it's going to be really hard to explain to someone else what works for you if you don't know what works for yourself. Alex Lee, you look baffled. No, I mean, I think you're right about having a wank. I think about it like meditation.

Like, I could meditate, but I could just spend that time having a wank and then you get a treat at the end. And wanking can be a meditative experience. Yeah. It can be a transcendental experience. Absolutely. A lot of sex educators do say masturbation is really, really good for you, just in general, but also to help focus your mind on what turns you on and, you know, I guess... Is there anything else, Georgia? Like, what else? Listen to audio erotica or read Smut. Smut.

because they've done a lot of research recently where they had two groups of people, both had issues with desire.

One group, they told to read and listen to audio erotica. The other, they put through sex therapy. At the end of the experiment, they both were desiring sex at the same level. So that, you know, is concerning for sex therapy. But I'm sure there will be other issues that, you know, we can always support you through. Could you please thank Alex Gorman, Alex Lee, Georgia Gorman.

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