Ambition Within Cynicism: Organizing Creative Chaos with Abbi Miller
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Do I base what is worthy of my time on the past or the future? Do I replicate, rinse and repeat what has worked? Or do I dream and forecast and live into what has yet to be? Okay, hi, welcome back. This week I talked to a friend of mine, Abby Miller. Maybe she's a friend of yours too. It's rare to have a repeat guest at all, although I seem to be doing it

more than usual lately, catching up with friends and using this as an opportunity to do so with you, eavesdropping, but

Abby's been on the podcast before, several years ago. She's actually been on a couple times. We talk about it in this, but we did a live episode together in Austin that maybe some of you are still listening now who were listening back then and came. It was really, really fun. It was right before the pandemic. And anyway, Abby's great. It was awesome to reconnect with her. And she reached out to have me on her podcast, which...

If you want to go listen to, it's a part one of this in a way, or it'll give you some, if you can listen to this one first, it'll give you some insight on some of the things that I bring up here because as you can tell, things have been sporadic at this program. If you are someone who's been listening for a while, you're going to find that it's been

You maybe noticed or maybe you didn't. I don't, you probably didn't. Who am I to think you noticed? But in case you did, you're about to hear a little bit about what has been going on for me and how I've been dealing with some

feelings of cynicism and loss of ambition, but also having some lofty goals at the same time. And in this, Abby gets me to open up a bit and you get to see how she supports people as a business strategist, which she is. And we talk about pivoting. We talk about

her strategies for using her intuition for effective goal setting in her work and in her life and finding systems to support when the muse strikes or creative chaos, how to organize it. She's really good at that. And I just, I really, I really love her a lot. She's great. And I enjoyed this conversation even more than I anticipated that I would. Yeah.

She is the one who first taught me about this phrase that I believe she made up. It's her way of talking about time management, but she calls it time pessimism and being a time pessimist. If you have worked with me in the creative clinic or talk to me in my daily life, it's something that I talk about a lot and has been incredibly useful. She has many more reframes and ways of

burnout and being a freelancer and supporting her

work and her life in a way that has a lot of freedom and flow that I really admire and you are about to hear it. So hopefully things are going to be more consistent and I am working on transitioning to a different style and I am taking some time to do that. So I'll be more consistent with it soon in a new way, which I'm excited to see.

A, figure out more concretely and B, share with you here. So anyway, thank you so much. Here's my conversation with Abby and I'll talk to you soon. Okay, well, this is actually like an interesting thing to start with because the way that I like to do these conversations that makes it most interesting for me is like always what's most present and what's most a genuine curiosity, I guess, with someone. And you're someone who's been on the podcast for

This is your third time and we've had many conversations and I was listening to some of your more recent work before this. But we were also talking about a live podcast episode we did years and years ago when we just recorded my episode on your podcast. And it was called, do you remember what we called that event? Yeah.

The pivot something. Something with pivot in it. Yeah. The pivot plan. The pivot. Yes. I bet it was an alliteration. It had to be because I'm upset. It was probably the pivot plan or the pivot something. Yes. And then I made a zine, as I told you in the last, which I need to send, I need to get your address because I just realized I never sent you one. But yeah, I made a zine called Pivot recently and

Anyway, to bring people up to speed of this morning, we had a Zoom issue, a different platform that will not be named because we are not giving them a plug because it didn't work. And then I ended up having to – Abby had to make a Zoom for us and here we are. And I felt myself just like getting frustrated. And I had already been having one of those mornings where it was just what I wanted did not happen and nothing –

giant, you know what I mean? Like it wasn't like anything in the scheme of things that will be remembered. No one got hurt, but just like little frustrations. And you said something in one of the episodes that I listened to today of your podcast that stuck with me about the importance of processing and the importance of having a lifeline for processing, whether it's a mastermind, whether it's friendship, whether it's with other people.

And you said it really like quickly in a kind of passing way, very casually, but it was quite impactful. And I think it pertains to pivoting and it pertains to, you know, my little story of what just happened here of like, oh, man, I'm like, we had this good thing going and we were going to like make a joke about the camera. And then now that happened and, you know, and I was like feeling the frustration where I could just like,

The energy of the interview could be off or I could pivot quickly. And I think that was what – I don't even remember what we talked about in that live event. I just remember having a great time with you. But I would expect perhaps it was something about like having a quicker comeback time. And I think something that can be quite helpful to me with it is –

and getting it out and letting it out, if you will, processing. And what you said so casually that was so impactful was you said something of like, you had a period where you took away some of those lifelines and masterminds and it was really hard for you. And then you said,

you realized how useful they are in not allowing you to wallow in it and then wither. And so how do you look at that when something happens that's frustrating? What do you do to bring yourself back to pivot quickly and not wallow in it and then subsequently wither? Totally.

Well, while you're talking, I'm just thinking, first of all, of motherhood and how motherhood is just one giant pivot. So I have a five-year-old daughter and, you know, my immediate thought was motherhood. I'll follow up with comments about being a person who runs a biz and exists in the world outside of motherhood, but...

My kiddo, she's a deeply passionate person. She's an Aries. She has like such clear desires. She knows exactly what she wants. And it's wild. Sometimes she'll come to me and be like, I can't find the socks I want. And she's like sobbing. She's like gutted. And I'm just like, oh, tell me about those socks. What color are they? You know, and immediately I'll be like, oh, I know what socks she's talking about.

And then it's wild how she's just devastated. And I can just say, oh, should we find them together? And she just looks at me like, I can't believe that you just gave me

this opportunity to get what I want. I'm just like, oh, should we go look for him? And she's like, oh, she kind of like wipes her tears. She's like, yeah, let's do that. And it's like totally just like such an energetic shift. I didn't say I know where they are. I didn't say we're definitely going to find them. I was just pretty much what I'm saying is you're not alone. Like I see you, you want those socks. Like, oh, you really want the pink puffy socks. Should we go look for him? Some

Sometimes we find them, sometimes we don't. But I feel like motherhood is like really this microcosm of like all human experience where when we, like you just said, when you want something, you have an idea about how your day is going to go and it doesn't happen. It's like, you know, as someone who's like, you know, processes verbally as a journaler, as a writer, like I think as soon as, I mean, this is very on brand. As soon as we let it out, as soon as we're able to be seen and witnessed by others, it transmutes.

You know, it's interesting, my work, I'm a biz strategist and a lot of what I do is that mirroring work. And it's wild how like motherhood has been such an opportunity to practice these skills. It's so simple. We all want to be seen. We all, we all want that. But to have something that feels to you like devastating, like maybe you listened to, I had a podcast episode that's called how to go from $40,000 a month to $0 a month in five easy steps. Yeah.

Such a great title. And it was, it was just like a hard ass time in my life and my biz. And I just was like, what's the opposite of hiding what's happening right now? I was like talking about it and, you know, I'm cheeky. Like I'm, you know, I made jokes about it, but it was also, you know, it was also on the other side of complete devastation, you know, speaking from a scar, not an oozing wound, you know, but I feel like.

The ability to speak about what's going on and be seen by others cannot be underrated. Like I'm a coach. My husband's a therapist. Like we're very pro, like talk about your feelings, talk about what's going on. And it's just wild. I think, again, my hub is a therapist. He has his own therapist.

I'm a biz strategist. I have my own biz mentors. And it's like, nobody is exempt from needing this. I just think that's the nature of being a human. We can't see ourselves the way that others can. And so-

I think for me, like I always, whenever I need a pivot, I mean, there's a hundred things you can do, you know, jumping jacks and eat some chocolate and get sun on your face and listen to a good song and all these things. But I know for me, like the quickest fix is connection with other humans and especially someone that can just immediately give you a perspective shift. Mm-hmm.

Completely. And I think I had the most recent episode before when we're recording right now, and probably that it will come out in succession to yours with Erin Claire Jones. She does human design. Do you know Erin? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she always uses me as an example for her clients for, what is it? Athena.

It doesn't matter if people don't know what human design is. It's one of the many systems of, I think of all of those things, whether it's astrology or Myers-Briggs or whatever, as ways to share language, to talk about ourselves and connect with each other, you know, like ultimately. And one of the components of human design is

how we make decisions. And I think, is that one the authority? I think it's authority. Right. Like if you have a sacral or a splenic. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So mine is this one called, I can't even remember what it's called. It's the one where you basically have to talk it out to know what you're thinking with others, not to get their opinion, but to know what you think about it.

And I think with all of these things, it's like whether that's someone's human design on a printout or it just resonates with you that talking it out is helpful. But I think we all kind of have these things to some degree, just maybe not activated to the amount. But

Like you said, processing with other people, it does it the quickest because I think if there's any shame in something, like if there's any, a little bit of shame, then having another person there, because that's where Let It Out came from essentially, where it's like what we hold on to, these stories that we tell about ourselves, about how we...

are, how we interact in the world that might be holding us back or that we feel a little bit of shame about, if we just let them out and share them, then we don't have to manage them anymore. And the shame can dissipate, hopefully. And I think that that really speaks to what you're saying of having that support and having that. But then on the other end of it, and I'm just curious what you think of this, on the other end of that,

I feel so happy to hear from other people letting it out when they've gone through something and they open up to me and they just level with me. You know, like that is also, that is the quickest way to get me out of my own shit is for me to help somebody else with theirs. You know what I mean? But I think that the other other thing of it is sometimes

Sitting in my own shit keeps me there, right? This is kind of hard to – maybe I'm not articulating it well, but it's such a delicate balance because when there's shame, I think it's really good to get it out. But sometimes the more I talk about something, the more I'm wallowing in it. And you spoke to this in your episode when you were like, sometimes you can just send a voice note and be like, this is what's happening, but actually now I'm over it. And sometimes that's all you needed and you can really just pivot.

it but other times I feel like if I'm talking about it too much it actually is counterproductive so do you know what I mean is that oh 100 I was just talking to my friend the other day so my daughter was born in lockdown like in March of 2020 we had an incredibly traumatic birth experience like unrelated to coven it would have been traumatic and then add on top of it

I was going for a home birth. So like transporting from home birth to hospital during, you know, being so fearful of being in the hospital with COVID. We had a really wild, wild initiation. So I was in and out of so much therapy, you know, meeting with specialists who specialize in birth therapy.

trauma and PTSD and all of this. And it was interesting for me in this. I mean, this is like, I think trauma is also like different than just like being a little flustered and needing to message a friend. We're kind of like, there's a spectrum here. Yeah. We're jumping around from like Zoom not working to like lost socks to like intense traumatic birth. Like life-changing experiences. Yeah. And I think for me in that moment, like

therapy was harmful. It actually was this dedicated time where I was spinning out. And I think I had good therapists. I don't think they were bad people. I don't think they were unskilled. But I know for me at that time, I was just still so in the eye of the storm for me to be in that setting. And I don't know, maybe someone more skilled could have had a better way to ground me or bring me back to my body. I was very disassociative. But for me, what I actually needed was probably to like

take a hot bath and listen to music or like sit in child's pose for an hour or like get a massage or, you know, so, I mean, I think again, there's different ways to express and be seen, but I know what you mean about like, I'm such a journaler and it to me is just like taking out the trash or like capturing nuggets of wisdom, depending on how, how I'm feeling in the moment, but like

I love getting out, but I know what you mean. Sometimes it can just be like a bit of an anxiety spiral and you're like, is this serving me or do I need to like go make some tea and like literally flip the script, like literally pivot? Yes. Yes. Yes. I think this is really interesting to talk about talking it out, the pros and cons of talking it out, because I think exactly like you said, one of the worst things

feelings for me and the human experience. One of the most frustrating things is attempting to do something to bring one result and it being counterproductive. Even when I'm doing work

that then gets deleted or that like you have to redo. It's just very frustrating. And I think on another level, being in those therapy sessions for you was the purpose of that was to help you to feel better and less traumatized. And it was having the opposite effect. And I just know that feeling so well, not that exact feeling, but I've been there and I think you don't, or at least I'll speak for myself. I don't know in the moment that,

that what I'm doing is counterproductive. I'm just like, this is not helpful, but it should be helpful. So what is, you're like identifying, like, is it the therapist? Is it me? Is it, I need more time. Is it, and then sometimes you just, the more experience we get getting older, we're like, oh no, I just, exactly like you said, I actually need this thing over here. I know when to distract or when to lean in. Yeah. Something I've been thinking about a lot lately is like permission to change your mind.

And I think this is adjacent to what we're talking about, which is, okay, I've scheduled a therapist that specializes in birth trauma and we're in our fourth session. And the last four, I needed an hour to come down off of the session because I was so upregulated, right? Like this is me in 2020, this is not now. But to actually just say, oh, this isn't working. And like permission to change your mind, permission to have new information, like that's

I think there's like, what I'm also hearing is like this should, like the should of, oh, I should talk about this thing or I should not talk about this thing. And I think to me, everything we're talking about comes back to instinct and intuition because I think probably if I could time travel to me in summer of 2020, if I could have said to myself, hey girl, I'm going to give you an hour. You get to spend this however long.

you want what is going to serve your soul your body your sweet little nervous system what do you need you can have anything i mean well if i could have had anything i would have had friends like physically hug me but that wasn't an option

It's such a hard time for that. Yes, insane. But yeah, within reason of a global pandemic, like I probably would have taken a bath, you know, but it was kind of like, oh, that's what I should do. I should do therapy because, you know, but it was like, I wasn't even getting an hour. I mean, that was like the one hour a day that I, you know, had my mama watching my kid or whatever. But yeah, I think it's like,

For me, it all comes back to intuition because sometimes what we actually really want isn't, like, the logical thing. Like, I don't know, like, what your should narrative is. I have, like, such a big shoulder inside of me. And especially, like, with movement or, like –

Oh, I have an hour free. Like I should finish this work thing, but it's sunny. And I would like, would love to go on a walk. And I'm like, wait, the whole point of running my own business is that I get to be a kind self boss because I could go work for someone else and tell, and they can tell me I can't go on a walk, but I get to tell me that I get to, you know, so like just stopping and being like, wait, who is running this show right now?

Who's running my biz? Who's running my healing? Who's like, what operating system is running here, you know, and giving ourselves permission to update it. Completely. And sometimes we have to interact with other people though, for those, well, a therapy is an example of that, but even processing like what, like you were saying, it's just this delicate balance because sometimes it's,

involving other people is really useful. Sometimes it's not. And sometimes you don't know if it's going to be or not. And I've had the, like, like recently I was in the midst of like trying to finish a bunch of work stuff, you know, just kind of on a roll. I always say it takes me a really long time to start and I'm really bad at starting and I'm really bad at stopping once I do start, you know, like,

And I had just gotten to this, hit my stride and I was like, I just needed 20 minutes. I knew it, you know? And again, well, time optimist, the term that you coined. So I think, you know, maybe 20 was actually probably 40, but still I was very close and I just wanted to land the plane and then be done. But I had therapy.

and I was just like, I was like 10 minutes late and I was just like, hi, I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. I just want to like do my thing. You know, I want to like finish my, my sub stack, but cause I like, didn't want to like get into it with like my emotions and like, well, you know, I just, I wanted to stay in this other mode, but I had that at 4 PM or what, you know, part of it, the timing issue and you can try to work around that, but sometimes it just

it is what it is and you have to live in the world and like obviously there will be frustrating things and you have to put stuff aside because you know we're grown-ups but

When it does happen, it is frustrating. It's frustrating. I think my friend Maddie calls it feeling like your time is not your own. And that happens often as, you know, we will never completely feel like our time is our own. And if you do, you're probably pretty lonely because we need to interact with other people. And that's how we survive. And that's how we connect and all of it. But when you are...

wanting to get to completion on something or you're wanting to move something forward, I think that feeling of having to what I call calendar Tetris of having to fit things in and remove things around. It's just it feels like a waste of time and energy and something that I'm trying to set up my life to be less frequent. Yeah. Yeah.

okay something that i'm hearing is also the muse like we can't always predict when the muse is gonna come yes a lot of the work i do with creatives and biz owners is helping them set up i call them systems for self-bossing and it's like what you're talking about so if you guys haven't heard the other episode i talk about time pessimism because i think almost everyone i know is a time optimist

maybe not my husband. He's like a phenomenal- Yeah, do you know anyone who is not that way? Maybe not like my dad, who's an engineer or my husband. Like my husband's like on time is late, five minutes early is on time. Like I remember on our first date, it was like, let's say it was two o'clock or something. And it was one, I remember it was 1.58. I remember it was two minutes before and he's texting me. He's like, where are you? And I was like, oh, I'll be down in a minute. He's like, why are you late? And I'm like-

We're meeting in two minutes. What the fuck? You know? And like this is before I really knew him, you know, he's like sassing me, but also it's like, it's really his truth. He's like, we're the FIU. He's so funny. I know. I love him. He's so great. But yeah. And that was also like incredibly regulating for my nervous system. He's so reliable. Like he's like, if I'm going to meet you at two, I'm there at 1.58. I'm ready to go.

But so yeah. I think a time pessimist should always be married to a time optimist. Right. We can balance each other. And that's why I'm a practicing time pessimist because I am innately a time optimist as in, oh, I'll just do these. Oh, I have 90 minutes until my daughter's home from preschool. I'll record a podcast, write an article. I think I'll probably record seven reels. I'll for sure have time to have a snack after that. So then I'll go on a walk.

bake some cookies. It's fine. And then, then you're always chasing this feeling of not enoughness. You're never getting the dopamine hit of checking the thing off the list. And so like a lot of what I get to do is work with these like fucking brilliant creatives that are really in the time optimism, which is like kind of where flow state exists. And it's like what you need in order to be in your zone of genius.

Because like you're saying, if you're hyper regimented, like I think of school or something where you're like from one to two, you do this and two to three, you do this and three to four. It's like, you can't really drop in in the same way. So I think the question also is like,

I know we're not just talking about work, but life and schedule. It's like, how do we have enough structure that we actually feel like we're creating freedom, but not so much that it's oppressive? Like, I think that's the question I'm always answering with clients is like, how do we find the flow of that in a way that you feel, yeah, you just feel supported, you know? And that when the muse does arrive, you can dance with her. Yeah. Okay. This is blowing my mind. This is like what I need, that exact thing. I mean, you always have some sort of

line that sticks with me. There's so many things you've given me over the years, but yes, this is, I'm exactly one of those people. One of those clients are yours. So I'm assuming your answer to that question is individual, depending on the circumstance and situation, um,

But like to clarify, one way that I look at it, that was so astute to bring up the muse and to put it that way, because like you said, it's pretty unpredictable. And I think that was my way of saying it's hard for me to start and hard for me to end because exactly like you saw,

That's what it is. It's like I'm kind of stewing on things. But once I like finally get in the zone and I'm in the way I think about it is, do you remember gym class where I went to middle school? They had like gymnastics, math, Velcro to the walls. Did you have that? Do you know what I'm talking about? So I didn't go to gym class, but I've been in a gym. So I know. I know. OK, I think they do that. Right. So like, yeah. So then the basketball players can like run into the wall and it doesn't hurt them, you know? Yeah.

And anyway, I feel like I'm like that for stopping. Like I if I don't have like a dinner somewhere to be and I finally get going on my computer, it'll be like 10 p.m. And I'm like, so the only reason I'm stopping is because like my feet are asleep and I need to use the bathroom and I'm so hungry and I like, you know, and I do that constantly.

Not that often because I usually have a friend thing or something to do in the evening, thank God. But I would do more if I didn't. But I remember my friend Michelle, who I think you know too, she has holisticism and she posted something. This is like four or five years ago. She was like, when Ethan's her husband, when my husband's out of town, why do I end up working until 10 p.m. and leaned over the sink eating cold pasta at 10 p.m.? And I was like,

this is scary. That's my every day. Cause I don't have a husband to like stop me at the end of the day. So my mat, I, she has like a, one of those mats, you know, I just go right into the wall, you know? So anyway, I'm curious if there's any, um,

Again, I'm sure it's pretty specific to people's schedule and lifestyle, but how would you, I mean, you can use me as a guinea pig, but what are some inquiry questions that you would ask someone to like to give people an idea of what it would be like to strategize with you and to work with you in session? Where would you start with someone if they were having an issue with?

like mine? Yeah. Oh, I love this question. I love all of this. And I really also relate because I was the pasta over the sink girl pre-relationship too. I was like, oh, what is time? Like very amorphous, like, oh, I like sleep in, stay up late, like just very flexible, very self-led gratefully, you know, like, like you running my own biz, like a lot of freedom in that. But also I believe that if we never fully stop working, we never start. And we're

Again, we never get the dopamine. We never get that clocking out, which is already like such a fucking mirage anyway, when you run your own biz and do your own work, it's like, what is time off? Never heard of her. You know what I mean? It's just displacing work on the front end or the backend displacement. Totally. Totally. I yeah. 100%. Which of course there's like so much beauty in that. And also I think there are times that it's actually really toxic. And the idea of always being on is like incredibly problematic. Yeah.

So yes, as a recovering pasta over the sink girl, I think, well, my first question when we're looking at schedule is always, so it's like, what's the container and what are we filling it with, right? So containers, like what's your schedule? Like what's your life look like, right? Like-

Do you have any standing appointments? For me, it's like I work 9:00 to 3:00 because of my kiddo's preschool. I have a very firm container. There's no flexibility, right? It's like, this is it. And so I think for you, it would be like looking at just literally your capacity.

and what kind of availability you want to have for your work. And then we start to look at what are we filling it with? And I think one of my favorite, I just read this, it's a Steve Jobs quote. And I always say, I'm not like a, you know, I know he, I'm not a Steve Jobs devotee, but I really like this quote, which is,

It's not what I've done that I'm proud of. Like in order to be successful, you have to say no a thousand times a day. And he said, I'm actually proud of the thousands of good ideas I've said no to in order to create the few that I did, achieve the things that I did. And I think that's like just like time pessimism as in expecting what you're going to do, expecting what you're going to do is going to take more time than you think.

So there's that, that. And so, I mean, for me, it's like a natural, I call it like your, your zone of genius and finding that 20%. And this is from the book 10 X is easier than two X by Dr. Ben Hardy. Love him. If you haven't read it, it's super fascinating. It's interesting. Cause it sounds like a super bro. It's not Grant Cardone. It's not that lineage, but it's very like 10 X, you know, but it's actually a book about

decision-making and minimalism and actually using your life force, your energy, and your mojo in the most potent way. And so, I mean, that would be my question for you is like, what are the actual needle movers? And an exercise that you can do is, and maybe you know, like, do you know right now, are you like, these are the actions, these are the recurring actions, these are the scopes of my biz, these are the things in my life that

I value them. I want to be doing these actions frequently. They move the needle. They create impact or income or whatever it is you're seeking. Like, do you know what those are?

Well, you know, we spoke about this a little bit in my episode on your podcast, which I think will complement this well to give, and you know this from that. And as my friend, my background is that I've been at this for a long time. So what worked in the past and what I would have said very clearly as those things I could have probably done, um,

is, has changed. And I'm whole, I'm one foot in holding on to some of those things and wanting to, cause the way you frame that question is like, do you know what will move the needle forward? And like, I I'm like, yeah, these are the things that moved the needle for it in the past, but I don't have the confidence in them because they're not moving the needle forward now. But I'm, I'm a little bit, if I'm really honest with myself, I'm like,

Are they not moving the needle forward anymore because of the internet, because of the culture, because of all these things?

Maybe. Or are they not moving the needle forward because I'm not really doing them? Like I'm not really working, you know? Right. And I think it might be honestly a little bit of both, but something else I wrote down in my notes that's sort of about this is I think you were maybe quoting someone else or maybe you said this. I'm trying to like skip ahead in my notes, but it was, and I can't find it, but something about

planning your strategizing your future by looking in the rear view mirror. Yeah. And I, and maybe you could clarify that, but I feel like to answer your coaching prompt for this, I don't have those things so clearly. And so I'm kind of just kind of, okay, this is amazing. And I know everyone listening is nodding their heads because the question that I think you're asking is, do I base what is worthy of my time on the past or the future? Mm-hmm.

Do I replicate, rinse and repeat what has worked or do I dream and forecast and live into what has yet to be? Does that feel accurate?

Completely, completely. And maybe you could clarify the examples of each of those. To me, the way you're framing those, I'm kind of like, oh, the second one for sure. You want to think of future. Like that feels better, more exciting and like what I should answer. But there is also part of me that's like, I'm not saying I'm like a unique case, but I had some success, you know, kind of early on. And so part of me is like,

I just want to be doing what I was, you know, things are really on the up and up and growing. And I got this book deal and I had this, this podcast and it was growing, you know, and,

And so part of me is like, I just want to be doing that, but me now, you know? Yeah. And is that possible? I'm not sure. So I don't know if I'm like not answering the question because I'm wanting both. Yeah. Well, and I think the answer is both. I mean, I think the answer, of course, is the past informs the future. Of course, of course, of course. And I think, you know, I'm speaking to you, Katie. If I was speaking to someone else, maybe they're in a new season of biz and they don't actually feel it.

they have a lot of data to go on. It's like, this is a brand new twinkle in my eye. I can't look at the last, what did we say? Like 14 years of podcasting for you? Like that's a lot, that's a lot of data to pull from. That's a lot of lived experience. That's a lot of talking. You know what I mean? Like,

So I think for you, I think the question is like, where do you want to go? I mean, I think it's kind of like basic goal setting envisioning. It's like, what am I calling in? And yeah, if it's more of what you've done, then you keep doing the thing. Right. But I think the kind of like with the rear view mirror metaphor, I think that so at least I'll just speak personally.

I know that I look in the rear view mirror for proof of the future. And that's just not how it works. It's not like, oh, I'll wait till I have a six pack and then I'll join the gym. Cause I've never had a, I mean, maybe when I was like 12, but you know what I mean? It's like, if I joined the gym and lift weights, this will eventually do the thing. But we wait for the proof to take action. And that we had just, we have to flip it the other way around. We have to take action for the proof. But what I'm hearing from you is like, wait, I want to do what I've always done.

And so I think this like comes back to the conversation of pivoting. It's like, okay, how are you being asked to pivot? And does doing what you've already done actually just look a little bit different in this season of life? And where, you know, where are you, where are you gripping when you're like actually being met with like a completely, maybe it's not a 180, but like a pivot, you know, in how you do it, why you do it, when you do it, you know, just, it can, it can be a subtle shift.

Yeah, completely. I think it's a non-subtle shift is brewing over here. And I think it's a pivotal time, dare I say. Thank you for clarifying that because I think I was getting tripped up by the rearview mirror analogy because it is sort of both for me and I envy it. I think that analogy works better when something is

fresh and new or they're really wanting to move away from what is and do something completely different. I think it's a little bit trickier in the space that that I'm in. But you're right. It's a it's a goal setting issue. But if I'm really being honest, I'm afraid of goal setting. And you said I think you were quoting someone else in one of your one of your episodes with something else I wrote down. You were talking about discernment and someone said,

If you have more than three goals, you don't have any. That's Ben Hardy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I really liked that. Is that hard for you as a time optimist? Cause it's fucking hard for me. Yeah. I think the goal optimist and the, I mean, we were just describing optimism and pessimism, but they're very, they, they, I think they're very intertwined, but I think the thing that is, I mean, this is a bit, a bit vulnerable perhaps, but yeah,

I used to be a goal optimist and had a million things I wanted to do and a million ideas. Like ideas are no problem here. It's the execution and the consistency that, you know, becomes the issue. And I feel like we've talked about this for years too. And I think what's changed recently, very, very recently for me, just in the last year, is I've noticed a...

And I don't even want to like give too much voice to this because I want to pivot right out of it real quick and not wallow in it. But I can see a little bit of...

I don't know, cynicalness coming up for me where it's making, you know, I had these lofty goals when I was younger and really believed they were possible. I was like, yeah, I'm going to write a book and this person's going to write the forward and I'm going to do a book tour and I'm going to do that. And I had the audacity to think these things and then they happened, you know, and I don't know where I, and I think part of that is like when you're young, you have this sort of

or optimism or, you know, belief, I guess, in a way. And you get more evidence. Yeah.

Yeah, you get more evidence and you get, you know, I think we need a win or we need a like a hit. And I think I just got a bit, you know, and honestly, in the last five years since we when we were, you know, together in person last so much has happened for both of us, obviously, like what you just shared and becoming a mother and everything you went through. But we were for everyone listening, like we were to get I think that event we did in Austin was like pretty much just before the pandemic or not that not that the year before, specifically.

for sure, but not that far. And we were in really close touch at this, that time in our lives. And just to think what's happened in the last five years globally and collectively and personally for each of us is, you know, changes some of these, these shifts. But I think I'm trying to find the balance of like having some optimism and excitement and,

And setting the goal, because I think that the fear comes from if I say the goal, especially if I just say three, then I'm not responsible for going to get that. And I'm struggling to believe that I can, you know, so instead I'm kind of staying in this.

I don't really know, you know, which is, I don't want to linger there. Did you say, if I say the goal, then I'm responsible for achieving it. Is that what you said? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like kind of the almost fear of success or fear of burnout or like whatever the fear of failure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If I say I'm going to do it, I either won't get it and there'll be pain or I'll get it. And what will it cost me to get it? Like,

whether it's burnout or you know whatever whatever we think the thing is yeah and i feel like goal setting is actually incredibly nuanced and that's why i actually really like doing it in partnership or in community because yeah yeah like also it's like what what is a random ask i mean sometimes we just write something because it's egoic or our friend wanted it or we're like oh i think i should have a new book or i should have a new baby or i should have a whatever but

without actually anchoring it in, you know, I know we both love Danielle Laporte and I always think of her work of like, how is it going to make me, how do I imagine that this is going to make me feel like, what do I actually desire here? And I think, you know, I, I'm sure like I relate to what you're saying. I'm sure so many people listening do around the fatigue that happens as a creative in this world

world today. And yeah, when I mean, you know, you and I have a shared, like I was an 18 year old that moved to New York city. I was like, I'm going to be on Broadway. And I booked a Broadway show at 18, was on tour by 19. Like I was just like, sure, I'm going to do it. Like I was like delusional. I was just like, all right, I'm going to go to this audition and like keep knocking on doors, you know? And I just didn't give up. Yeah. Little, little Midwest cuties hanging out in Manhattan. I mean, it just, yeah, I, I miss that Abby.

I miss the girl that's just like, I'm literally going to do this thing. You know, I used to run a conference and I was just like, yeah, I was going to run a conference. Okay, great. And sometimes I'm like, God, did that, did she die? Did she, she dead? Like, you know, and I have had big T and little T traumas that have worn her down. I think it's just also honest.

to be where you're at. And I think like, it's also just okay to have a season, whether, and I don't know how long a season, I don't know how long it'll last, but I think it's like through it's, you know, kind of back to the first thing we're talking about of like expressing and processing and, and even just saying like, you know, whether it's with a coach or a friend or someone saying, Hey, I'm wanting something new is coming something like there is, there is a twinkle in my eye. I don't know what it is yet. And here's the fear I'm having around it.

it and hear like, and to be able to unpack some of it because a huge part of the work that I do is actually refining goals so that they are aligned. Because I think we have, depending on who you are and what the goal is, I think it's, it's common to have a fear of success or fear of failure. And they're both very, they're very sneaky and they're going to sabotage us in the sneakiest, most refined ways. Yeah.

But I mean, I hear you. I don't think you're alone in that at all. And I think it's really fucking bold to just I mean, don't you don't you like look back at like 19 year old Katie and think like, oh, my God, she just walked around saying this. She's walked around saying she was going to write a book and then she did.

I know it's, it's eerie. I was very into, and I think this is, I almost brought up Daniela Port earlier with something too, that I might circle back to. I know that's something we share and I want to get to this part too, but we also share being yoga teachers. And I am assuming we may share this too, but I was a real devotee of Abraham Hicks and, and studying the

Law of attraction, I guess. And that is really important to me. And I think it's very steeped in how I think about things.

And what they say, a big tenant of their work is something that we already spoke about, which is not essentially not stewing in something. And it's very related to Daniela Port's work of instead of choosing a goal and far exceeding it and feeling bad or not reaching it and feeling bad, focus on how you want to feel on the way. That is a real Abraham-esque tenant, which is like,

Whatever it takes to feel better, they would call it getting in the vortex, right? Is going to help you

So essentially, feel the way you want to feel to take the actions that you want to take, and then that will inform your life. So basically, your thoughts inform your actions, and your actions become your life. So if you can get your thoughts better, you know, so, and I still believe in that very, very much. The thing that has changed for me in my connection to that type of work is that

I didn't know this then, that it was easier for me to do that thought switching and changing and change my state and get myself to feel better when I was younger. Obviously, there were challenging things being a young person, for sure. But I'm having...

more challenging for me to at least do that belief work now because I have a bigger sample size of evidence in both directions. But I had very little evidence to support my belief back then. You know, like I have very little evidence of like, well, why not me? I could I could just do it, which is a big, huge privilege to have.

But I had some, a little bit of belief then where now I have, well, you tried and it didn't work and you got a rejection, you got the other rejection. So the keeping going is, is a little bit trickier. So I think it's, and something that I like of Abraham is they say sometimes to not continually talk about how, what is to talk about what you want and what could be more. And, and,

I like that and I want to get to that, but I think that requires some clarity. And I think, like you said, that is really effective to do in partnership, in community, in a safe space with someone who understands. And this entire time I'm like, I need to work with you. You are so good at your job. Like you are, you really see it. And I hope people are getting an experience because I feel like I want to know a bit more about how you work with people in session, but like

part of your talent is being able to clock that, like what you did a few minutes ago, but like that's the muse, that's the container. Like you're able to articulate things that are happening with people because you read people really well. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for that. Yeah. And I also live it. Like I am inherently a very creative, wild person.

person like I was raised by an artist and an engineer and I kind of have these two parts of me and my you know like I want to make a wild mess when I make dinner and get every spice out but then like I'm gonna clean up after like I have that tendency you know so it's like I kind of have these both sides of me and so I have a lot of a lot of respect for the mess of creativity and I have a lot of respect for order and I don't put either on a hierarchy you know and I think like

Yeah. I think that the nature of goal setting, yeah. When you're 20 and you're like, fuck it, I'm going to be on Broadway. You're like, okay, cool. I've, you know, I haven't been rejected for 300 auditions yet. So I'm just going to say, I'm going to be on Broadway, you know, it's different. I mean, I definitely feel like a different person now. My, my optimism around birth, you know, I was going to home birth. I was like, lavender is going to be my painkiller. I got this. Like I had no conscious fear of

And I had such a different experience, such an intervened, you know, my daughter survived, but we had a really wild go of it. And I had a cesarean and, you know, just all the interventions. And now when I meet someone who's pregnant, I have a hard time being in what feels to me almost like naivete. And I hope this isn't offensive for anyone listening, but I guess I'm like relating to you in my own way and saying,

That I've had lived experience that has contradict my previous belief. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Completely. That's exactly what I, in a different circumstance is exactly what I was trying to say. Yeah. And I think something that I do at least, you know, because I have friends being pregnant all the time, something that I do to honor, because it's like, I think my, and I'm just like a little bit of a tangent, but the tension that I feel is wanting to honor my experience without

vomiting on theirs. You know, it's like, how do I honor that? Like there, I have so much grief about what, what we went through and also like honor that they're stepping into the unknown on their own and just to like bless them and wish them well. And like, I just know for me, it's a boundary that I just usually say, like, if I have a friend who's pregnant, I'm usually just like, you're going to do great. I love you. And I'm, I actually choose to not engage in conversations around it because it's not going to be in service of them. But it's like,

I'm also not having another baby. And I think the conversation you and I are having are how do we proceed with ourselves and our creative process and our output and our expression and our businesses? Because while I can choose to not make more babies...

we're both choosing to set more goals in our biz, you know? So how do we revisit the scene? How do we, how, how do we revisit a place where we have had hardship? And I think that's like, I think there's, I mean, I have so much respect for artists and entrepreneurs. I just think, holy shit, like these are sturdy people. And I think there is inherently, like when I look at my friends, you know, like my best friends and the people that are just like

You know, your friends, you're like, you are so successful. Like I'm talking all the millions, like, holy crap, how do you do it? I'm like, they all have this thread of optimism or like kind of this wild animal energy where sometimes I think they've chosen to have a little bit of that goldfish memory. Like they've chosen to be like, I've not been knocked down 500 times, but it's 501 and I'm standing up again. Yeah.

And it's not because they haven't had, have heart, you know, I mean, some people get, of course get handed some stuff that we haven't been handed, but like say, so have I, but I think it's the choice. I think it's the choice to work with what you've lived through and say, how can I in a compassionate way, honoring what I have lived through, honoring the rejections, honoring the hardship, how do I continue to create? How do I continue to show up? And I think like, to your point, a lot of it is like, I think back to the semantics for me of postpartum

therapy. Like I think, I think the body is a huge piece of it. And, and I don't think we can create from an upregulated state. I don't advise it. I think, you know, as you shared my backgrounds in yoga and every time I meet with a client, we start with breath work because for me, it's like, we got to drop into the body because I think, especially if you're a biz owner, it's

like we try to just run our biz from our head. So I think as much as we're able to downregulate and drop in, even in that moment, I have no illusion that I'm like going to heal someone's trauma with five minutes of breathing, but to be able to drop in and at least downregulate a little bit in that moment, you know, to feel more ease in your nervous system, to even approach the topic of what do you want to do with this one precious life? Like what's next? You know? Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. I relate to seven, seven tangents of what you just said, but I'll take it one at a time here. Gosh, the part about talking to people who are pregnant, having the experience that you, I mean, I, I haven't had a baby and had that experience, but I'm just putting myself in the shoes of, and if I were you, that would be so hard for me to do.

And I just really commend you. And I think that as someone who, and I probably have shared this with you, and I've certainly said it on the podcast enough times that it could be a drinking game for people at this point. But I had a therapist years ago say that I'm very disembodied, I guess, is really if she was going to put it in a word. But she was like, you think your feelings, you don't feel your feelings. Right.

And, you know, you're very cerebral, you know, and I think that that comes, you know, having complex eating disorders for decades that so many of us do, but I have definitely and taken to an extreme. Having an eating disorder is getting very good at disassociating from your body. Yeah.

and lying to yourself and to other people, sometimes subconsciously too. And I relate to what you said in the sense of other people I know either struggling with body or food or having gone through a change of that. Or when people are honestly, when people are just, and it's coming up a lot recently with the way that our culture is really in a different spot than it was five, 10, eight years ago with bodies and size and

And I don't judge anybody for what they choose to do with that, but it is having, you know, many, many size changes myself, as we all do. And, and,

I feel a lot like you do. I'll just say it that way. I feel a lot. I feel similarly to how you do talking to someone expecting when I am talking to someone in a different phase of that with me, where I'm like, I know too much. Like, and my experience might be completely, completely. I'm like, my experience might be completely different from yours or yours might be like mine. And if that's the case, oh,

Oh, buckle up, man. But I can't say that because it also might be completely different. And I'm talking out of my butt because I don't actually know. So instead, I just have to say nothing. And that I think for us, we're real connecting people that I don't really know how to like half do it with that. I just want to change the subject so I can go all in because it doesn't feel good to be withholding.

And I feel like I have to be, and I think too, in my case, and I think you, you have spoken about yours publicly too, where it's like, because I've written about it and because I've talked about it. And because honestly, like a lot of my early work came from me talking about that topic. I think it, it almost feels a lot of people who meet me now have no idea, but it almost can, can feel expected with, with some people in a way that I'm just like, it depends on the situation, you know? And yeah.

And I think that you made such a good analogy where with kids, it's simple where you can, you know, a stop and start to that. But food is more similar to business, I think, and bodies and changing and aging and vanity and all of that where it's pretty constant. And money and economy and trends and internet and we constantly have to evolve and change.

change and learn. And I think that is something that makes it even more important to have support and connection around that. And

And time consuming. It makes it, I've realized, you know, I was saying to my friend, I was trying to tell her about the time optimism thing that you unlocked my brain two years ago. And she framed it as she was like, oh, yeah, you're really bad at scoping. That's another way to say that.

And she helped me in a strategy sort of a way. She came over and did a session with me and she would work with co-founders and startups. And I was so grateful that she did this, but she introduced me to something called sprint planning. Do you know what this is? I've heard of it. Yeah. Where you basically say all of your ideas and you, everything, all of them, put them all out there in every different category, ask tons and tons and tons of questions. It's like a full day session. And then-

You essentially do what that quote asked you to do. You pick three and everything else goes into the icebox. And I think you're actually doing sprint pan landing with your clients often and just calling it a different thing. And so you put everything else in the icebox and you are not allowed to touch those things. So they're there and they're on ice, but they're frozen. So then until you complete things on the list, then you can, then you can move on. And, and,

Where I even struggled after the sprint planning session was like knowing how long any of those things took. It's just challenging. Like that is what it is. And you can overestimate how much time you need and do it that way. That's better. But-

I think it is just quite frustrating where to not know, to literally not know at all where like, but I got to learn a new skill. It's very unpredictable. And I think a lot of this comes back to uncertainty, uncertainty and being a business owner perhaps, or being a entrepreneur, being creative at all. And honestly, we have a full-time job.

It's all just managing uncertainty because we'd never know, you know? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yes. And I think that's why this isn't like a one and done. This is why when I work with a client one-on-one, we're signing a year long contract because it's not just like, here are your three goals. Have a nice day. It's like two days later, how's it going?

Yeah. What's going on? What's coming up for you? And how do I like, oh, you're trying to do something else. Is that in the top three? Did this usurp another goal? Do we have new information? That's okay if it did, but we're not adding a fourth goal, you know, and I have all different clients with all different personalities and all of this. And, you know, some of them love kind of like

sassy, tough love kind of energy. And, you know, I mean, that's not like necessarily my default, but, but I do think it is like having someone to continually witness that process. And I, again, I, I work the way I work because it's what I need, you know, like, this is genius. I need it. You are so good at what you do. Thank you. Go on. It's

It's so fun. I'm such a nerd. And I mean, I just finished with this phenomenal client, Kathleen, and we worked together for a year. She increased her revenue by 74.5% after working together.

She hired four people on her team. She works less hours. And it's like, because so much of what I support them doing is what is deserving of your time? What is deserving of your time? What is your deserving? What can we delete? What can we automate? What can we delegate? And that's, you know, so I think, yes, it's like,

It's constantly project managing the muse. It's constantly project managing the creativity. And again, I'm not exempt from this. I think having a thought partner when you're like, okay, I'm writing a book or I'm recording a single episode. I think this is how long it'll take. And having a thought partner to help co-create that is priceless. And whether anyone listening hires me or someone else, I think don't do it alone. I mean, that is, so my business work womb, our manifesto is that we know we can do it all, but we know we were not meant to do it all.

alone and that this is a together kind of thing. And I think that's the book I was referencing, the 10X is easier than 2X. He actually has another book called Who Not How. I haven't even read it yet. It's on my shelf, but the thesis of it is pretty obvious. And anytime we're faced with a problem, a question, a project, before we ask,

How do I do this? It's who already knows the answers. Who can hold me through this? Who can witness me? Like, and there's so many creative ways to do this. You know, I mean, of course it could be just paying for someone. It could be bartering. It could be, you know, there's so many creative ways depending on anybody's

you know, budget and, and skillset and all of that. But I know for me, like just having that as our manifesto, this is a together kind of thing. Anytime I start to feel tension in my biz or like, I'm like just Googling shit that I like shouldn't be. I'm like, this is not in my wheelhouse. What am I doing? I'm about to like break something, you know, to just stop and be like, who, who can I bring in? Oh, I'll just ask this one person who's a genius in this. And even if they charge me, it's like 20 minutes of their time and I get to move on. Yeah.

Totally. And I think at the end of the day, it's like, what brings you joy? Why are we working for ourselves? Probably to spend time doing things that feel good.

Probably to feel expressed, to feel aligned to all the things. And I think it's just so important to constantly look at that because I say this all the time, but I think if we don't question how we work, I mean, what we're doing, how we're doing it, we're just going to replicate what we've always done. And we're going to replicate what we see everyone else doing. That's just like the nature of humanity. We're going to be like, oh, Jane Doe did that, so I should. She's on Pinterest. I should be on Pinterest or whatever without stopping and saying, wait, what

hey, what is this about? And just bringing it back. I said earlier on, connecting with intuition. And I think something I say with my clients a lot is your intuition is your OG biz coach. Your body is your OG biz coach, not me. And so a lot, I mean, while I do have opinions and methods and strategies, a lot of what I do is that excavation of what do you actually want? And then how do we systematize it and boundary it so that it happens?

Oh my God, that last bit. Helping people figure out what they want

And then helping them systemize it and contain it so it actually happens. And the last piece, which I think is most important and why I'm like, how do I like, I'm like, good. This like worked on me. This is like, I was not, I'm like, I need to like come up with, I'm to like figure, I'm going to leave you a review to like, this is like, I'm so in this. It's just so good. But the last part of that is,

the accountability and the support to attain it. Because I have had, and you know this, but I have worked with several coaches and strategists and spent a lot of money and time that I've invested. And I think this is where I have a little bit of, I feel like you felt in that therapy session a bit where I'm like,

I don't want to talk to another person about explaining, let it out, like explaining my business, which is like essentially a 10 year old, you know, a more than that now and have someone be like, okay, I think you need to do this. And then I have to be like, I, this is when I started to feel cynical and jaded where I'm like, but I did that. I did it 10 years ago or I did it four years ago and it didn't work. Or I did it five times. I made the, you know, and I want to be able to just

move forward with some of these things, but just hone it in a bit so it actually gets done. And I guess it's, I'm describing project management, but the difference between you just being a project manager for the muse, to clarify that, what you also do

which for me, I've had a project manager on the team and she was so wonderful and actually did do this for me too and really learned to manage up in a way that was very wonderful. And she's still a very good friend.

But it was not her job to do this part, but she did, which was offer emotional support through the project management. And you do that with your clients. You know, you offer emotional support because I think accountability is all well and good. But sometimes I'll just like be like, yeah, I didn't get it done, you know, and said to have someone be like, OK, why did you not get it done? And could we figure out a way you could? Yeah. Yeah.

Totally. And yeah, and asking that from a neutral place. There's no shame. There's no judgment. It's just like, okay, tell me more. Like it's all information. Yeah, totally. So, you know, my background is in nutrition and so much of what I would, you know, I'm talking to people about their poop. I'm like, I want to know everything. I'm like, give me all the details. Because I think that when we have the info, it's like we're able to kind of uncover the

our motives and the way we're blocking ourselves and the way we're shooting ourselves and all of it, you know? And I think, so I work one-on-one with clients, but I also run a mastermind and I freaking, I mean, I love both for different reasons. I love the depth of one-on-one, but I also love the togetherness of masterminding and having babes in product-based biz, service-based biz, just starting to, you know, seven figure founders and, and

They're all connecting and relating. You know what I mean? They're all like, wait, I struggle with that too. And I think it's just, I just don't, I don't, I personally don't know any entrepreneurs who get too much of that, who get too much of feel.

feeling seen feeling. Cause I think we tend to just other ourselves with the internet and we're like, Oh, this person's Instagram is gorgeous. So they must never have imposter syndrome or they must never feel like they have 75 goals and they can't pick one or they must, you know, it's like all the stories we tell ourselves. And you

Yeah, I just, I feel so strongly about being, yeah, being in some type of community, some type of container in your creative process, in your biz. And I think for me, a story, okay. And it's also like, do what I say, not what I did, because...

I was, I have to, I'll have to look at my calendar and really figure it out. But I think it was probably nine years into my biz. Like I was already at six figures before I hired anyone. And I was like stressed out, strung out. I was wearing too many hats, but I didn't have anyone in my immediate vicinity that was like, Hey, Abby, here's a way you can do the thing. You can just get a little bit of help. Look, you can, and like, not just, I mean, I knew, I knew what a VA was. I like had a designer that worked for me like two hours a month or something, but it was

I just didn't have someone normalizing, like investing in your support in that way. Like I just didn't know. I mean, it was also like a different climate then, you know, now there's so many masterminds and coaching is way more mainstream, but I can't help but think like, what, where would I be right now? If I had like just gotten support in my early days, instead of waiting until I was nine, 10 years in making all the mistakes and then like, oh, well maybe now I should probably have somebody give me some feedback. Like, yeah.

Well, you know, it's so interesting. Yeah, well, I don't know. This might just be a total weird thought experiment. But funnily enough, so I had a full-time job when I started this.

when I began all this, and I did for six years. And so I did everything I'm doing now and much more courses. And when the book came out, all that while working a full-time job. And so from day one, I had help and support. When I started the podcast, I had someone –

I was 22 years old and, you know, podcasts weren't even, this was 2013. And I had an editor. He was my boyfriend, but I had someone helping me. And then when we broke up, I was like, oh, I need to replace him. So I had, boom, I had a team. And that person who ended up becoming my project manager much later was, she was everything at that point. She was fantastic.

figured out, helped me figure out MailChimp at the time, helped me. And then eventually she was like, we need to hire more people. So we got a proper editor. She was project managing. We had two people under her. So I had this kind of mass, not massive, but like I had- You had an empire. Five people working with me, right? And so then cut to-

the pandemic and I really scaled back because it was such an interesting time and I didn't know what I wanted to put out there and all the things we discussed earlier. And Amanda, who is this incredible friend of mine, was having a baby and needed some time off anyway. So I really scaled back and it became a very, very sparse and I still have someone helping me from time to time and an incredible editor. But I kind of did the opposite, right? Where I had

I did have a team like out of the gate pretty much, you know, it felt. And then I now scaled back and I,

In a way, I wanted to – I didn't really even have the keys to my business. I was like, I don't even know how to do this thing because I never did it. I was working full time and somebody else did it. And I just like showed up and did the parts I liked. I was very much in my zone of genius. So I'm in this interesting spot where I'm just trying to like get back to where I was. But back then, I almost felt embarrassed to have a team. I didn't really want to talk about it. I was trying to like –

I wanted to be big, but like seem small, like this tiny small operations. And I just like, I'm an art, you know, like, but I really had this, and I felt that it was very embarrassing. And it's just so, it's so funny how things shift because, and I, funnily enough, I had a friend of mine was like becoming a business coach and needed, I might've told you this, but she needed like a client, like a guinea pig client to like learn. And she's like, can I like business coach? And I was like, oh my God, yeah, that'd be great.

so we do it i'm starting to give her the info she's like after maybe like one set she's like listen this is too hard i think i need some but i need like a different case because you have like a 10 year old and i feel like i'm like studying to be a pediatrician but i need like a i need like an easy i need like someone making something new you know yeah yeah like i just started a blog

I was like, I get it, you know? But it did kind of, it made me sad because I was like, am I just an impossible? Because I have done things kind of in an opposite order, you know? Anyway, all of that to say, the grass is kind of always greener because who knows? Maybe like doing things at the normal time of doing them or doing them at a different time. It just, you know, we're all figuring it out. Yeah, we're all just throwing spaghetti at the wall, eating spaghetti over the sink. We're just making it up.

We're just getting through it. Yeah, completely. All right. Well, this is incredible. And I'm so I'm so, so, so grateful for you spending the time. I learned so much and I really feel like I understand your work and how you work with people. Or I refreshed my memory on how great you are at this. And I hope that everyone else did that, too. I want to ask you before we go, what what?

Is something that you've learned or that has been helpful to you that's something new, perhaps, that you've learned recently that's been useful, whether it's in your life or in career or in any area or just interesting that you'd like to share? My first thought when you asked that is the power of story. How...

important our story is as humans, as biz owners. I work with, you know, through my mastermind and clients where we're always excavating the narrative of like, why are you doing this work? What does it mean to you? Who do you serve all of this? And it's not just like a trite, like what's your ideal client avatar and let's map it. It's like, I think in the age of AI and all of this, like there's just so much power in

sharing your story. And this is why I have a podcast. This is, I'm, you know, I have a book twinkle in my eye. Um, and I just, I guess I just want to say that like for, for you and for everyone listening, like your story matters and your story could save someone's life. Your story could inspire someone. Like, I know that's so cliche, but I just feel that in my bones in a way that I haven't for a long time. And I think, especially having had the

the birth and then I had another experience when I was 27, a really traumatic experience when I was in India. And both of those stories to me are so dark.

And I hid a lot. I mean, the birth, I didn't really hide it, but I was also like alone in a house for a year up in a pandemic. So it's like, I didn't really have to hide it because I was alone. But like with India, with everything, like I had so much shame around having had these hard experiences. And maybe this connects to our conversation of me being an optimist and me really identifying as the

I'm Abby, the glass is always half full. And then having these experiences, it just felt like a gut punch, you know? Yeah.

am realizing that the thing that feels darkest for us is often a gift for others. And what are you know, there's, of course, so many ways to express it and communicate everything we've lived through. But that's something and like to our point earlier, yeah, maybe I'm not going to tell my pregnant friends graphic details about my birth. But but to also like, I'll just speak about that for a minute to also say to my friends,

Um, like I, I know that I'm actually the friend that like when my mama friends are having a hard time postpartum, they come to me and they're like, I know that you're the one person that's going to get it.

Yeah. And it makes me want to cry right now. And I'm just like, yeah, you can't scare me. Like you can't scare me. Like what's going on. And I think that I would never wish what I went through on anyone, but I also think like, I mean, I don't know. I'm like a Scorpio. So I can already, I'm like, give me the dark, give me the depths. Let's fucking go. But I just think like something that I've really realized is that a way to alchemize that in my own journey is that

I get my story speaks to others and that they're going to people are going to feel safe with you because of your story and that it matters. It's connection, really. And I relate to that. I think there there are topics where people are feel safe.

like they can open up to me and they can, and I, and I can hold that, you know, and, and, and I'm happy to be able to do, I mean, that's the concept of soft stories, let it out. So I got a send, I send you this thing. I wrote it, but it's, you know, I believe that the, the soft stories are these tender, vulnerable stories and we think we need to hold them in, but when we let them out, it connects us, it binds us and we feel

feel less alone and it helps dissipate shame, you know? And anyway, I'm so grateful for you. I'm so happy to know you and thank you so much for taking the time and coming back. And it was really, really great to reconnect and to talk about all these things. I, I barely touched my notes, so you can come back, but I really liked the places that this conversation went and I am so grateful and everyone should feel

follow you everywhere that you are and get in touch and work with you, but save me a spot. And I'm just stoked. And you have a retreat coming up, right? Yeah. Or in the fall? Yeah, I have a retreat in November. It's a somatic biz retreat. So it's kind of a marriage of my work in yoga and my work in biz. So we start every day with movement and breath work, and then there's biz masterminding and all

Oh my God. It's so, so fun. You're just like eating tacos on the beach, hanging out with incredible creatives and intuitives. And it's kind of like a business. It's like a women's circle, a yoga retreat and a business mastermind had a baby on the beach. It's really fun. So we're going, we're going back, but yeah, it's thank you so much. It's been so,

so fun to chat with you and just like so grateful to reconnect in this way and yeah just so delighted and everyone please reach out I'm also on Instagram I love a DM I love a good old-fashioned DM if if any of this speaks to you or you're struggling with your goals your time pessimism all of it like I would just be so honored to to connect and and see how I can support thank you thank you so much all right so let's end like we always do with letting out the deep breath so inhale

Let it out. It's always better. Thank you, Abby. And thank you for recording it. Oh yeah, I got it. And it is recording. All right. That was my conversation with Abby Miller. Isn't she great? She, I really enjoyed that. I hope you did too. If you're still listening all the way at the end, you know where to find me. I'm at Katie Delbot on Instagram. Abby is too, like she just said. And my sub stack, Let It Out lists. I would love to connect with you there.

Okay, have a great rest of your day. This podcast is edited by Jeremiah and I will talk to you soon. Bye-bye.