Chloe Cooks on Pickles in Her Pocket to Anchovies & Soup
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How I present my food is just as important for me as to the taste of my food. It really truly is. And I think it's because I have such a design-focused mind or aesthetically driven kind of outlook. And so whether that's with my writing or photos or indeed food and plating, it always has like an art perspective to it. Okay, hi. Welcome. Welcome back. Welcome perhaps for the first time.

If that's the case, hi, I'm Katie. You're about to hear a very highly anticipated episode. Dare I say the most highly anticipated episode of this calendar year because Chloe, Chef Chloe, Chloe Cooks, Chloe Walsh, she's here. She's here, finally. And this is an episode that I love,

that you're going to love when I hurry up and get this intro over with because it's lengthy and yet I could have continued to speak to Chloe much longer than we even did and we spoke for a while. I came over to her house, she prepared us a beautiful lunch which she'll tell you about what we ate in a second and...

I love this conversation and where it went. We cover everything from her favorite places to go in LA. We talk about how she ate growing up and her palate, her favorite meals to cook. We talk about food and bodies and living in a body and chronic illness and managing energy and writing and

shifting from design into her career in food, growing her audience, trusting her intuition in her work and in the kitchen, and much, much more. I am so grateful that you're here, that you're listening. It means so much to me. And let us know if you listen. Let us know. Chloe and I, we want to do an event together really soon. So if you want info on that,

Stay tuned. And also, at the end, there's this segment that you know, perhaps you love, Asking for a Friend, where I poll some of our mutual friends. So stick around for that. Some of you listening make an appearance. And...

I just, you know, if you don't know Chloe, she is obviously a chef and a recipe developer and a food stylist and an incredible writer. She writes the sub stack, Anchovies and Soup, and she hosts pop-ups and cooks for her friends. And I'm so lucky to be one of them. I met her...

A couple years ago, my friend Heidi, Heidi Baker, friend of the show, previous podcast guest,

She had this friend Chloe who I would hear about. She seemed very, very cool. And one day, one fateful day, she invited me to a breakfast at Chloe's house and was like, "Hey, do you want to come to this thing? Chloe's with me." And I was like, "Oh my God, I'd love to. I'd love to meet your friend Chloe." And Heidi was like, "You don't know Chloe? I thought you for sure met." And I was like, "No." And I met her that day and I had this lovely breakfast.

Chloe was incredible and then we were fast friends. We got a coffee like the next week and then she invited me to her parties and then, you know, here we are. We're friends and we have all these lovely mutual friends and it's a real honor and a privilege of my life to get to be part of her community and world and now have her here on this podcast is a dream come true for everyone involved and hopefully you listening. So,

Here it goes. Here's our conversation. I hope this is the first of many recorded conversations. And you know what I love about this with friends and with people that I know to varying degrees is it's rare. Even with people that I do get to spend time with in person, it's still rare to get to spend this much uninterrupted time where I get to ask them anything I'm curious about and really get that

quality time. So thank you so much for giving us that and eavesdropping on it. And I'll talk to you at the end. Here's my conversation with Chloe. Okay, this is incredible. I can't believe we've had, and maybe we should tell, let's set the scene. We're in Chloe's house and she just made us a beautiful lunch. Farinata, which is...

Italian chickpea pancake or soccer if you're in France. And I was unfamiliar, but now I'm a huge fan and one of the best salads I've had in my entire life, which maybe, maybe tell everyone about the dressing. Oh, it's so simple. It was kind of like equal parts vinegar to oil. So like one-to-one, I like a very vinegary dressing and depending on ratios, maybe I'll like

I'll write the recipe for you and we can add it to like the show notes or something. And then it's a little honey and then a really good chunk of Dijon mustard and then shake it, shake it all up in a jar. And then we actually added in some Maya lemon juice, which Katie picked up on the way over here. So yeah, that was it. I,

I'm honored that you love the salad so much. I received a text message last night asking me if I liked anchovies, to which I believe I responded in all caps to, yes, I love them. And it really made a difference. That was the game changer. A bite with it was far superior. And I feel that way about most things with anchovies. Could not agree more. Could not agree more. We're realizing our palate is quite similar. Yeah.

So maybe that's a good place to start. What did you eat growing up? Let me have a think. I mean, we've had this conversation a little earlier on, just how I've always really loved food.

Maybe the things that traditionally other children didn't always love. I'm willing to go on record now with my pickle story. I think like if you, a lot of my friends know this story, but I would always walk to school. Exclusive. Exclusive. I would always walk to school with my friends and we'd go to like, you know, the candy store or in the UK, we call it the tuck shop and everyone would get candies, but I would always go and buy a jar of pickles and then I would empty the pickle juice out and

because I didn't want to get rid of the pickle juice, but it was heavy if I was putting it in my pocket. Empty the pickle juice out and then just put the pickles back in my coat pocket for the rest of the day. And I would snack on pickles all day. So maybe a jar would like last me a couple of days and I wouldn't get one every day. But anyway, that's my pickle story. So yeah, I've always loved like olives and like, I get, yeah, just things that like kids just, and I've never really like

You know, I like, I guess I like chocolate, but I've never really been into candy or like sweet things like that. I'm much more of a, I've always had a savory palate ever since I was younger. So like, give me the chips over or like cheese as like snack. I'd like run home from school and like raid the fridge for like cheese or whatever. But in terms of meals, like my mom was a very good cook, but she kind of was like a classic. She had like four things in her repertoire that she was like really good at, especially

spaghetti bolognese. She was very good at, always very good at a Sunday roast. So is my dad. They both were extremely good cooks. My dad was a very, very good cook. And I think he introduced me more to like the nuances of like Indian food or like more adventurous things. Whereas my mom was a little bit more straightforward, but delicious, you know? So yeah, I obviously was influenced a lot by what they cooked for me at a very young age.

Where do you think that that came from, that craving salty over sweet? I mean, I really... I also didn't want candy and had a similar palate growing up, and I felt embarrassed about it. Like, it was different, and...

I don't know where it came from for me really either because it wasn't my dad's palate sort of like that but my mom's isn't really and so I don't know if it's nature or nurture like yeah where do you think the Pilkigal thing began? I have an inkling that it was my granddad so I had my first tin of fish with him probably when I was like you know god knows how young and

And it became a ritual on Saturdays and he would pickle his own celery, but he would pickle it in salt, like salt water. So it was more like brined, I suppose. And we'd sit and we'd have a tin of fish together and pickled celery or yeah, as I said, brine celery. But

but his palette is very much what my palette is now basically. Lots of pickly things, briny things, a little bit of spice. The mackerel he would get would always be like a spiced mackerel in tomato sauce. - So good. - And so I think, so this was my dad's dad and so my dad's palette was fairly similar, but it was like more ritualistic on like Saturdays when me and my sister would be with my grandparents.

Me and my granddad would always have little lunches like that together. So I think that's probably where my like,

for that began and never left. Yeah. I think. Maybe me too now that you're saying that because I was just in Michigan and I wanted to take some of my like I took a couple hats that used to be my grandpa's and a couple of his shirts and I had this memory come back of he used to babysit me a lot and he would make a bowl of

and mustard and dip crackers in that. And I do that all the time. Yeah. A version of that. And I was like, oh, I just, I put the pieces together of that. And it's really sweet. It's sweet when that

you can just follow the thread back to the influence and it's something that's like a tender, nice memory like that. For sure. Yeah. And I think I've only really figured that out in the past few years because a few people have asked me like where that palette kind of comes from. And I think it's been a really nice process kind of retracing those steps because I feel like my parents for sure had an impact on my, like my cooking and the way that I eat and for sure, like hosting, like they, they, they were always hosting people. Like I,

I think I learned the love of being social from my parents, but for sure food was my grandma and my granddad. And they're very different palates in that sense as well. But they would always eat very like kind of, you know, classic British food, which I still love to this day. And not British food that you guys would be like necessarily familiar with, but like kind of very traditional, even like West Midlands type food.

British food what is that I mean I don't know where exactly the origins are but there's things like liver and onions there would be like gammon steak which I guess you could kind of call like ham and you always would have it with a parsley sauce that for me is just so much like it just reminds me of my grandma's cooking so much or I'd go into the house and it'd always be like dumpling soup

or she'd always make really good Irish coffee after dinner, which always had a little bit of whiskey in and like a cream top.

But like, you know, classic kind of grandma and grandpa food. But I just love and I loved my grandma's food so much. How does all of that, the pickle story, the palate, the home cooking, how does that influence how you cook now and started when you started? I think it depends, I think, which way you're looking at it. Because I feel like it influences definitely the way I cook at home.

And for sure influences the way I cook for other people, whether that's a pop-up or a supper club. But I feel like for those kinds of situations, it needs to be slightly more nuanced. For me anyway, I mean, my cooking is always gonna be very home style anyway.

And I think it's like the things that I crave. So if I'm at home, like sometimes, you know, Andy and I will eat the same thing, but more often than not, we'll like make separate things because I really want like scotch broth, which is like a lamb soup, which I'll like make at the beginning of the week and kind of plow through it slowly. Or, you know, minestrone, my grandma would make it from scratch a lot as well. And so more like those craveable grandma, grandpa type things are things that I will like will eat in the week at home for myself.

I did do a British supper club at the beginning of the year and put a few of the things on the menu. I put like a Scotch egg, which is obviously very classic British, along with many other things. And people actually really responded well to it. So I think British food has such a like negative connotation, you know, but hopefully people can eat some of my food and get a better grasp on that it's not just brown food. Well, I think that's how you open people up to new things. And that's the point of coming to something that...

you know, whether it's a pop-up or going out to dinner or going over to somebody's house is, and I think that's relevant in the, in the pickle story. What I like about that is, and I am wondering, like, did you ever feel like you, and still now even, and it's a little bit different when you're cooking for a client, but do you ever feel like you have to cater or like,

what you actually like. Of course, you have to when you are doing a job, but going back to when you were a kid, what I love about the pickle story is like,

I, for instance, I felt embarrassed to like those things. And so I just wanted to like pizza and candy and not to fit in. But I think it's actually good to take ownership of what your palate is. That's how you can explore something new with someone else. And sometimes, like I was saying before, I love jicama. And I've tried to give it to so many friends who have literally spit it out and been grossed out. But...

I don't know. I think it's good to own that. How does that resonate for you? It's so funny that you're asking that question. I was having this conversation with somebody last night. There was something that I wanted to put on my menu in New York and actually I ended up putting it on the menu. It's something I've been wanting to make for a long time. It's nothing kind of like, you know, crazy. I made a lamb and rosemary ragu and I wanted to put it on toast.

So not with your traditional like rigatoni or spaghetti. In the UK, there's a restaurant called St. John, a very famous, you know, like steeped in British history, very British sensibility about its food and its ingredients. It's kind of like nose to tail cooking. And they have a venison version. And there's also a very similar version at Strakers, which is another kind of very, I guess it's an institution now. It's probably only been open for like five years, but it's a very like, it's a well-loved restaurant.

It's venison on toast as well. And I asked my husband his thoughts on that. And he was like, no, I think you should do rigatoni. And in my stomach, I was just like, no, I want to do something that feels very British. And then I asked kind of the head chef who was kind of helping me with my pop-up in New York, his opinion. And he was like, look, it sounds delicious, but this is New York. But I still was like, I need to stand strong in my conviction here.

I'm gonna put it on the menu I put it on the menu and it was we sold out we had to 86 it it was gone so quickly people loved it so much they were coming up they actually were like getting out of their seats to come up and say like how much they loved it and that it was just I did it with like a kind of um with like a horseradish creme fraiche on top as well so I think it was just

It's kind of like a lot of my food is very like, I guess it's like homey or like kind of slightly healthier versions of comfort food. It has a British sensibility about it. But I, you know, I studied in Italy, so it's definitely got some kind of like Italian peasant food vibes about it. I grew up a lot of my life in Spain. So, you know, it's got lots of like Spanish influence throughout as well. It's very Eurocentric.

But going back to your question, I think it is important to not only stay true to yourself, but also believe in what you think to be true. And if that means not hiding that you really like pickles or wanting to put a lamb and rosemary ragu on because you truly feel like people will truly enjoy it, it's kind of like, yeah, trust your gut instincts on those things. Yeah, I mean, I think from a...

Perspective. I think. Doing the thing. That's most. You. Is important. Because. I mean. That we can broaden this out. Further. Of like. This era. That we live in. Not. Being a monoculture. And how. Everything's the same. And it's kind of boring. And you can. You can make your house. Look. This good. By just like. Getting things that. Instagram tells you. But it's so. Totally.

and there's no personality and I think it's the same thing. You can cook something that you see on Instagram but the life is sucked out of those things and I think it's really easy to... And I understand why because you took a risk and I think any piece of art or food...

you know, anything you're kind of presenting, I suppose, somebody else in whatever way you think taking a risk and having it be the most specific. Yeah. And that's what they say about writing too. It's like you, you,

if you're writing for everyone, you're writing to no one or marketing or whatever. It's like, you know, you want to, it's that, but it's, it's risky. And I think especially in, you know, the further you broaden this out, the further it's like, we don't want to, we want people to like us. We want validation. We want to, um, you know, be palatable in every sense of the word. And I just, I think that's really, that's really commendable. But then things can become homogenized and boring. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's... I think, you know, I have conversations with you and friends all the time. And I think I want to start... There's so much more that I want to put on my menus that I think after this New York pop-up, I think I'm going to start doing it because...

why not? Yeah. Life's too short. And that's, I'm so glad you had that experience because that's so validating of like, I went with my gut, even though I, you know, what, and sometimes it could have gone the other way. Totally. And then maybe you'd learn from that or maybe you'd be like, you know what, that wasn't the scene for that, but I'm still gonna, you know, it's, it's something you have to continually think about and just,

And separately, I, very controversial take, don't like pasta. Oh, wow. How did I not know this? Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's fine. It's not like, but I just don't prefer it and literally don't know how to make it. Would never choose it on a menu. And whenever someone, my friend Zoe, who I don't know if you ever met, but she moved, she's British like you and lives in London now. Yeah.

Whenever she would make pasta, she...

would try to get me to like um what is it called the one that has capers and anchovies and is I love the sauce um oh um it's not amatriciana it's um puttanesca yes oh it's such a good one very briny yeah yeah I love the sauce and she was right because she knows my palate and it's similar to you capers it's yeah my language yeah but every time she would make it I would she would just say I she's like I know you're gonna say it I know you're gonna say it and every time I'd have I have pasta I do I'm like god this would be so good on bread

Really? Okay. Well, this is it. This is my calling. I need to make you my... Do you like lamb? I'll make you lamb ragout. I don't eat meat. I'll make you a vegetarian version, but we'll have loads of rosemary in, so we'll still have very much the same flavor profile on toast. Okay. This is great. The other day, I actually did post on my Instagram, and it got so many likes, and it made me laugh because I was like,

this was the type of food that we were talking about earlier. Like I make by myself. I don't know why I took a photo of it. Cause I was like, you know, it's kind of like I eat this on my own and I don't want people to know I'm eating this.

I just didn't want pasta that night. But I really wanted... I think I'd made like a sauce for friends the night before. And I roasted massive chunks of zucchini in the oven until they got really kind of like caramelized. And I had the ragu over the roasted zucchini. And it was so good, guys. If anyone thinks that roasting vegetables is a good replacement for pasta, it's not. But...

It's a great substitute if you don't feel like eating pasta that night. Yeah, or just something different. Wow. Yeah. All right. I have like 18 avenues that we could go down, but I think one that I'm choosing is...

About a year ago, I was preparing for this, and as I told you before this, it was so lovely to get to spend time with my real-life friend, but in this internet way yesterday. Yeah, yeah. And you were saying in this podcast that was recorded about a year ago, at the beginning, you know, the question of what do you do, you were saying back then, and I think it's a... What I love about podcasts is they're a time capsule of, like, a moment in time, and...

how what you've thought and how you felt then and so you were saying that you never quite know what to say when you get posed that question and now a year has passed and so much has changed and grown for you just even in that year and so I'm curious you know has your how has your answer evolved and has it gotten easier to answer it in the last year?

Yes and no, because I still, I think, you know, calling myself a chef is always an interesting thing. And I actually ask people's opinions on this all the time. I think of myself as a cook. I think of a chef as someone that works in a restaurant. I have indeed worked in restaurants over my lifetime. But I think I'm much more comfortable and strong in my conviction when I'm talking about things that I'm a cook about.

I'm a recipe developer. I've also added in the last year writer to my repertoire, which is not, it's, I've always written, but I'm outwardly writing to people. Now I started my sub stack, I think in January, and I've just absolutely adored the process. And I've, thank you. I've always wanted to talk more about what influences me. And, and a lot of that is travel and being able to experience different foods. What's the name of your sub stack? It's called anchovies and soup.

because I eat both of those things very regularly. Our favorite foods. Our favorite foods. Yes. And I think it kind of speaks to the person that I am. But anyway, it's kind of like you can, it's all encompassing. It really does speak to the, it says it all somehow. Kind of says it all in those two words. And yeah, I think I've really loved how much people have really like have messaged me and told me that they love it and hearing about

Sometimes I'm like, am I talking too much about my trip to London and people want just like a singular recipe, but the response to my actual like stories about travel and my experiences and,

trying different foods wherever I am and also feeling very grateful to be able to travel as much as I do and talking about that people have responded to it really well you know I've always kept like a journal and things like that but actually putting pen to paper you know quote-unquote on the internet it's been like a really transformative thing for me and I really loved I really love the process of writing the posts so yeah added writer

With anything, right? With time, you become more comfortable with owning who you are, owning what you're doing. You know, it was probably like four years ago now that I fully went freelance doing food. And the more you do, you know, I've done a lot more food styling over the past like year and a half. So you just become more comfortable. Like with someone to ask me now, what I think the question is, is like, it's hard to just that one answer. What am I? I guess I'm a cook. But it's like, then people are like, oh, where? Yeah.

So I don't have... I still don't have a single answer because I do many, many different things that are still under the umbrella of food. But yes, I feel more confident answering that question now. I think that question is just that question. You know what I mean? Like I think I...

Unless you have a very specific, singular, more focused job, I think for someone who does... I mean, I have like 17 jobs, you know? And it seems that answer is getting more difficult, oddly, the older I get. But for people who are just constantly... There's many shifts that happen, and so that question becomes a less interesting...

when you have a short amount of time, like at a party or starting something. I...

I never ask it. I don't even like consider it when I meet someone now. And I'll say like, what did you do today? Yeah. Which, you know, you'll kind of get the gist of, you'll get that other one answered, but they'll say they can take it however they want to take it. Rather than being like, what do you do for a living? Yeah. What did you do? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Although, but I also am curious and want to know eventually, you know, so it's like, we all have to have the answer. I don't know. And, and that's the other thing too, like constantly, like,

and I want to talk to you about career pivots because you've done that as well, but people are maybe perhaps within that or maybe within... This is going to sound dramatic and I don't mind the question. It's a completely normal small talk question, but it's almost saying like, are you...

Are you married? You know what I mean? Like, it's like no one would ask that necessarily. So why are you asking? Yeah, I don't, this is the first time I'm like having this thought. Thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very like, it's a very like specific question and not everybody wants to necessarily talk about that either, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, it's kind of asking like, do you guys want to have kids? It's like...

you know, you don't always want to get asked that question. Yeah. And I guess it's not at all the same thing as those, but... But depending on the person and depending on... Yeah, yeah. It could bring up similar feelings. That's what we're... Totally. It's interesting. Yeah. Well, okay. Speaking of that, and, you know, we kind of just jumped right in about you, but you have made a career pivot. You have a background in art and design and painting. And I believe that's what you studied. So...

How does that influence your, just to start with your food and how you cook? Absolutely. I mean, it influences everything from my perspective. I think it's definitely just, it's fully entwined into how I think about food, how I think about, I mean, how I present my food is just as important for me as to the taste of my food. It really truly is.

And I think it's because I have such a design focused mind or aesthetically driven kind of outlook. And so whether that's with my writing or photos or indeed food and plating, it always has like an artful perspective to it. I think personally, and people have commented as well, just art.

It's a little different to some of the other kind of things that you see on Instagram. Indeed, there's some incredible, beautiful, you know, very artfully presented food as well. But it's definitely my style and it's got like a perspective. It's got like an angle to it, I think.

which you can kind of, some people will tell me like, or they'll send me something like, Oh, this looks very like Chloe cooks. And I'll agree. Like it really does look like something that I would like take or make, you know, or reshare or, you know, oftentimes I just so admire your taste in your eye and you'll,

share things on Instagram and it's like my favorite to click through them and they're often things that I've saved or liked or yeah and I and I'm like oh that that does feel very you and not beyond food you know architecture yeah art um where do you think your design sensibilities and inspiration come from were you always that way you know when you had the pickles in your pocket um

Yes, I think so. Like, as I said, I studied art, but even right down to like when I was at like primary school, we call it in the UK. I, you know, always wanted to do textiles. I've always been a very creative person before ever really deciding what I wanted to do for like real school. I was in performance studies and expressive arts. So I've always been...

very artistic and creative with everything that I've ever done in my life. But I think kind of honed more in on that when I went to college and decided to do artwork. But yeah, I've always been interested or had an eye for anything beautiful. And my mum has always said that I'm kind of like a magpie. I'm just drawn to shiny things, whether that's jewellery, whether that's painting, whether that's beautiful writing, whether that's a gorgeous...

or a sofa or a piece of fruit hanging on a tree. I'm very drawn to a shimmering bit of light on a wall. And I've always been that way. I think it's just who I am. And I've been able to kind of channel that into a work situation, I suppose. Yeah, which is so cool.

So you're working in design, you were working in interiors, and you were cooking, and then you transitioned into cooking more full-time. Can you talk a little bit about...

what that transition felt like. And then you've also said that your audience grew very quickly. And so what were your feelings around that? Did you have any apprehension to that? I mean, of course, as you said, it's exciting and led to a lot of goodness and you knew that. But when I heard that, I was like, I wonder internally what came up for you. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, I was working in design, a design adjacent job at

classic story I feel like for many different people across many different careers everything kind of changed in the pandemic I've always cooked I've hosted supper clubs since I was at university I've always loved food I've worked in restaurants and bars while supporting myself through school and

And this is a side note, but I decided not to pursue that because of my arthritis, which, again, we can talk about that further down the line. But I've always been very hospitality-driven, whether that's welcoming people into my home or... And so it was always a huge part of my life. But come kind of...

I guess maybe like more like 2018, 2019, you know, moving to San Francisco, I was documenting the food I was eating out a lot more. So my following kind of grew a little bit to like, I guess I had maybe like 2000 followers, but then during the pandemic I was photographing and everything I was cooking, making, eating, and just, it grew from there.

And yeah, I think I'm almost at 70,000 followers now. And I guess that started growing in like 2020. So yeah, four years. It was such an interesting time because indeed it was very exciting. But it was... Yeah, you kind of are like, wow, what's going on? This is so cool. But then I think there is a pressure as well to kind of like keep up. Keep up appearances, you know? And so...

There was a part of that for sure. Like not apprehension, but just not really knowing what was going and not really knowing what was going to be leading to. Yeah. That's like excitement mixed with like some kind of like unknown feelings as well, I suppose. But I'm also very much a person. I'm very go with the flow. And I just kind of was like, this is amazing. So like, I feel like there was less apprehension and more excitement from my point of view anyway. Yeah.

Yeah, and then it's just been, you know, growing ever since when I decided to quit my job and transition full-time into food. I...

Had already been doing a few things on the side, but not really because I was working full time. It was kind of impossible. But then I started an email address, started a website, and then everything kind of came flowing in. And so it really made me secure and, okay, I can see if this is going to work for maybe a few months. And it did, and I've just never looked back. And I feel like I've thrown my all and...

into everything that I've done so far and it's worked out amazingly so far. Wow, that's so cool. I mean, it's inspiring to both the transition and the organic growth and also knowing how hard you work and how hard you, you know, you're, and you've spoken about this before too,

There's self-doubt that comes in when you're doing this primarily on your own. And even despite having a great community around you, much of which we share and I know, but I think we all can feel two things. The self-doubt of being seen and also what we were talking about even with making choices before and not

And then the overwhelm, you know, which is something that, of course, with your arthritis, but also just even beyond or unrelated to that, too, just having to juggle so much. Yeah. How do you work with that? What has helped you with that? Well, having good friends around to bounce ideas off my husband, for sure. But also, you know, I am a yes person. I always will be. I find it very difficult to say no to things, especially things that feel very exciting and

And I also would rather be blue in the face busy than bored. So I'm kind of my own worst enemy. I say to people all the time, my calendar will be the death of me, but I truly, I do love it. Sometimes I do get into bed at night and I am like, oh my goodness, I am so exhausted. And like looking at my calendar for the next day, but I'm like, if I can get a good seven hours in, I'll be fine.

But I truly love it all. And I like the dynamics of my job as well. Like every day truly is different. Like I might be filming some like content at home one day, then I have some meetings the next day. Then I'm like on a shoot the next day. And then I also indeed will have, you know, a couple of days where it's quiet and I have to lean into that. And like even usually January and February are kind of quieter, I think for most people, but this year was not. So I really haven't. And the summer has been wild, like so busy and,

So I'm so grateful for it all, but haven't had too much downtime this year, which I'm so grateful for it. But I'm looking forward to January and maybe hopefully taking just like a couple of weeks to kind of, I think you need to decompress to then enable yourself to do better work when you've had a rest. I think too many people will just power through and indeed lots of many people have to power through.

But if you can take the time to rest and recalibrate, which I'm hopefully going to do in January, it allows you to do better work moving forward. Okay, so it won't shock you. I have a lot of irons in the fire, a lot of ideas. I just wrote a substack about the fact that I am a chronic drafts person. I have a lot of drafts and not a ton of finished, completed, shared work. Okay.

And I found out I'm not alone when I wrote that. There are tons of distractions around us at all times. We all know that. It's hard to focus on what you are actually wanting to do. Then I have something that I've been trying that I want to tell you about because a lot of us, myself included, think that stress is sort of par for the course with getting a lot done. And we also all know that stress is stressful.

the worst possible thing for our mental and physical health.

So I've been using this product that was founded five years ago and they have set out to create something, a drink that can constantly get us back to 100% mental performance. That really good feeling when you're like, all right, I'm on it. The coffee's hitting, the whatever, right? It's called Magic Mind. The incredible thing about them is that it can do that. It can get you to that 100% mental performance.

without any of the downsides, without any of the side effects, the jitters, the anxiety. They made 106 different tries on this. We love an underdog. We love someone who's trying, who's formulating, who's in the lab. And then on the 106th, they found a formula that did exactly that, gives you the 100% mental performance.

So anyway, I have been trying it and what's really great is I feel like it's actually working, which...

most supplements, most drinks, you don't feel that way. And it's only been four days. I'm going to come back and tell you how I've been doing after a week using it. But so far, so good. And I'm really excited to see how I'll feel using it even more consistently. And if it can help me, it can truly help anyone. My brain is in 100 billion directions, very nonlinear. I might get there, but I'm going to go around the back through the legs over the shoulder, you know?

But Magic Mind, you know, helps me get there perhaps faster, but definitely helps me arrive at all. So if you would like to try it, they are making that very easy for you to do. Magic Mind is a mental performance shot.

and you drink it in addition to your daily routine, it gets you focused, it gets you mentally clear, motivated, and helps you to be productive while reducing stress. And how do they do this? Great question. I have the same question. The answer is mushrooms. Nootropics, adaptogens, and over 100% of your daily vitamin C and vitamin D per

per bottle. Dare I say the most important of the two vitamins? I, you know, I'm no doctor, but they seem like the hits to me. It's 100% safe. All these ingredients have been third-party tested and there's no quick fix, of course, but drinking this drink helps to balance your stress levels, which, you know, really can help you to be more productive. And I think

I think that's really cool. It's not a coffee replacement. You don't have to give up your coffee, thank God. This is just something that you can add to your morning routine just like other vitamins. And it's just a vitamin for your mind. It helps your coffee to actually last all day.

because it can help make it so it's time released. So the caffeine doesn't actually give you the energy I learned. It blocks the neuroreceptors in your brain and tells them to not tell you that you're tired. So when the neuroreceptors unblock two to three hours later,

then that's how we experience this sudden drop in energy, you know, also known as the caffeine crash. But their formula uses 12 active ingredients that help change that. They help support your body's engine.

And anyway, it's really cool. It's helping me. I think that you might like it too. If you want to try it, it's really easy. There's no risk. So you can be 100% confident that you're into the product. Just try it because listen, you'll get 100% refund. If you don't like it, no questions asked.

for 100 days after buying, you'll get a refund. So just try it. Just order one. Why not? There's truly no risk because 100% they're going to give you your money back for 100 days if you don't like it. So you might as well. It ships to every country and you can find it in some stores like Sprouts and Air One if you're here in LA. The point is they have a Black Friday offer making it 50% off.

I did not say 15. I said 50% off until the 6th of December. Only with my link. This is only with my link. So you go to magicmind.com slash L-I-O-B-F. L-I-O-B-F. I believe that stands for let it out B-F.

Best friend, probably. Again, that's a Black Friday offer. It's currently 50% off until the 6th of December only with my link magicmind.com slash L-I-O-B-F. Okay, that's that. Now back to the episode with Chloe. Yeah, and I think it's tricky that saying no piece. It's easy to say no to things that like something comes across to your mind.

phone, I was going to say desk, but to your Palm Pilot. To my iPad. Yeah. And, you know, when you have a busy day, it's like, okay, I don't want to do that. No problem. But it's that exact piece that you said of, of things that you want to do, but you have to manage your energy. It's not managing your time. It's your energy and, you know, having a chronic illness on another level, but also, um,

you know, being a freelancer where you're, it's very easy if you have a full-time job to just be like,

I'm booked. I even like that. I'm working. I can't do that. Yeah. Totally. Sometimes when I have a plan where I just know it's so relieving where I like Friday nights, like if somebody invites me, I work at Sipsnack, as you know, like it's just like sometimes it's nice enough to have to choose. Yes. But when anything that like is movable and it's on you to make another choice and people know it's movable if you can or. Yeah. Yeah.

yeah even just things like I'm you know I love networking with friends but also community and I love getting a coffee with a new friend but sometimes I have to kind of try and

not rein that in, but like, I want to be meeting new people all the time. But then sometimes I realize I've got like seven coffee dates that week with, you know, potential clients or like exciting thing. Who knows? But then it sometimes those are the ones that I find difficult sometimes to say no to because I really, really do want to

Go and meet someone and get to know somebody. But I think that is... I'm in the throes of learning how to manage my time in that sense right now, actually. And I had this conversation with lots of my close friends. And they're just kind of like, you need to say no more. And I'm like... Well, the tricky thing is it's like... It's the...

You never know. Sometimes those things are energizing and sometimes they're depleting and you don't know. And sometimes I'm like, if I'm... Because I think we're both pretty extroverted to an extent, you know? And when I do say no and prioritize resting or whatever, sometimes I'm like, oh man, I kind of wish I would have gone with the thing, you know? And so it's like, it's a real...

You have to really decide. And I also have found, and I'm curious what you think about this. It feels very LA to me. And I've only lived here for four years and they've all been post pandemic. So it was hard for me at first to notice, like, is this just the world after the pandemic or is this LA or, or is it the age that I'm in now? But, or being a freelancer, I had a full-time job before too, but yeah,

I was like, does anybody work here? Because I was just like, all I'm doing is friend. Like, how do I get anything done? It's LA. But then I also like a lot can happen. Like at a, like we literally, like the reason we're doing this is because we bumped into each other. We've been trying to do this for years, but we bumped into each other at Amara. Yeah. Like on a random morning and had like a lovely coffee, which was like,

Great, but we didn't have to put it on the calendar. No, and none of us, like I was leaving Amara, but I wasn't rushing off. I mean, I think. We both were kind of in a rush. We were like, oh, we'll stop for an hour. We both were kind of in a rush, but we ended up stopping for an hour. Yeah, it was a delight.

- But I say this to everybody. I even speak to my friends in New York. I speak to my friends in London. Friends come here and they're like, "Does anyone work here?" And I'm like, "Absolutely." Everyone works actually really hard, but we're all freelance. So like we really make our own schedules.

And so Kate, my friend and I, we talk about this all the time. Someone's like, oh, let's get dinner on Sunday night. And then someone inevitably is like, oh, Sunday's like my night to chill. And we're always like, why? We don't have a schedule. Like your Sunday night could be your Friday night if you want it to be. And then they're like, oh, you're right. Let's go and get some wine then because it's whatever. But like, I think like,

You know if I'm, or if people are reaching out in LA to other people in LA that you're going to be able to go and grab a coffee if your schedule's free, but at like 10 a.m. on a Thursday morning because most people are freelance here. Right, and I think that what you said about Sundays of, you know, you don't, yeah, you can go because you don't have a set schedule, but the thing is because we don't, then we are responsible for managing our energy. Trying to like make some kind of...

Yeah. Or just the thing that was tricky for me when I, I felt like I was just friending like I, and I still often feel this way, but I had so much on my socially doing great friendship wise doing great. But like every other area of my life that people can imagine needs improvement, but exceeds expectations. It's because all of our friends are so amazing. Like honestly, half the time I just, all I want to do is hang out with my friends. Totally.

Totally. And then the other thing too, related to that is like so much can actually come from that. Like I was saying, like, you know, with bumping into you, like there are sometimes no, sometimes yes. And that's the thing. You can't have any expectation, but it just, it does happen that way. But then it becomes, everything feels important. Every going to the thing, every coffee day, every whatever feels important. You can't like make like one evening, like the guilt that I need to go and support, but also I really want to go to that thing. Cause it just, it's fun. Not,

It's so fun. Not even because something would come of it or in a like... No, it's so fun. Yeah. I just love all the events. And like sometimes I don't text anyone like are you going to this event? I already know that I'm going to see... It's the best feeling. Yeah, it's the best. I actually, I felt that way walking into Kate's birthday party. Yeah. And I had this like moment where I was like...

It was so funny because like two of my friends were at my apartment to pick me up, but Heidi was also picking me up and I was like, just meet me there. Like she's, Heidi's here. And Maddie was also going to drive me. And so I had like 14 rides. We're all going to the same location. But I did want to ride because I'm carrying this like very heavy cake. And then when I walked in, I hadn't been to a party in a minute where I was

There are parties where you go and you know a couple people. And that's fine. But it requires more energy because you're going to be having the... Maybe getting asked that question that we talked about earlier. But it was so cool to walk in and be like, wow, I know pretty much everybody here. Yeah, I felt the same. And it just... Yeah, it's a different thing. But the importance of everything and not wanting to miss out. And it's not in a like...

traditional sense of if I don't go to this then maybe they won't it's really like comes from us yeah it truly is just like I don't want to miss out seeing everybody or like experiencing that really fun thing yeah yes but then it becomes you have to manage your own energy because if your time is flexible because you can go out on a Sunday you can go to the thing you never know if you go to the

a party where you know everybody, that might give you so much energy and then you feel like you can like power through some emails or write something because you're like so filled up with the... Yes. The good dopamine from that. Yeah. But then there might be something that's draining if you're having to really like... And you never know. So then...

I'm sure you know about the spoons thing. Do you know about this? Maybe. Or maybe you've told me about it. Maybe. But I think some... I think I probably have because I'm like a broken record and people who listen to the podcast... Fast forward 30 seconds because you've heard this a hundred times. But somebody's therapist gave this to them and then gave it to me. And it's gentle shared language to talk about energy management, which is different, right, than time management. Yes. And it was developed by a therapist who actually worked with people with chronic illness because...

they have to change plans often. Is this where the term spoony comes from? Because people with chronic illnesses call themselves spoonies. Maybe. Well, this is it and you can tell me. I use it all the time with a few of my friends. My friend Sophie and I always just say, I still want to come to dinner, but I'm spoonless, just so you know. I love saying that from the outset to friends. And I do that sometimes as well, just so they know where you're at. Totally.

Totally. Yeah. So essentially what it is is like everybody has a set amount of spoons that just is inherent and it's different for everybody. Like a daily set. Totally. Like you wake up with this amount of spoons. So like let's say for you it's 12, for me it's four. Yeah. You know, but we all have our set amount. Some people have more, some people have less, whatever.

And so everything you do in the day either gives you spoons or takes away spoons from you. So like in every interaction, right? So like a couple of days ago, I got a parking ticket and that took two spoons, right? I got one yesterday. Really? All right.

Takes you weird conversation with your mom. Yeah. Boss, mom, whatever. Yeah. One spoon down, you know, it wasn't that weird, you know, a really bad one, four spoons down, you know, and then maybe, but then maybe you like right now this is giving me spoons. So I'll leave here like one up, you know, but if you have so much throughout a day or a week, whatever, like you either, you might be negative spoons or you might be like,

I actually have plenty, but I know that I have enough... I have about, you know, five spoons, but I know that I have tomorrow morning this really important interview that I actually have to manage the spoons. And so...

that becomes very important. Being a freelancer becomes very important. Having chronic illness or living in LA, I think, or being of everyone perhaps. But it is nice to have that shared language like between people you're close with to be like, I have about three spoons or like I have this, you know, and so I don't know. That maybe is where that comes from. It is. And just knowing and hearing you speak about that.

and being someone that has a chronic illness, I don't really refer to myself as a spoonie, but like online people with like fibromyalgia, rheumatoid arthritis, like, you know, MS refer to themselves as spoonies. And it is that.

So I have heard about the spoon theory, but I just didn't know it was the same. Yeah, and I think I find that difficult. Like even just going into like, you know, sometimes you're looking at your week ahead and I'm like, if I can just get to the end of this week. And I think sometimes I know I'm going to be spoonless at the end of that week. But like if I just know I can get to the end of that week, everything will be okay. And it feels kind of good too. Like I don't... To have like a busy... Yeah, I don't think...

I think it's overrated to manage the spoons so, be stingy with the spoons.

You know, like I rather, I always say this, like I rather err on the side of overgiving or being a bit depleted than I think it's good for us to push ourselves in that way to a point. And be good and honest. And I think it's a good thing, not be good, but I think it's a good thing to tell our friends. Yeah. Like, I love you. Oh, fully like I love you, but I just, I am so depleted this evening. I'm not going to come. And I think, you know, real friends will completely understand that.

Or be like, just letting you know, I'm on my last two spoons. But I'm here. I'm not going to be like the life and soul tonight, but I'm going to be there. You know, I think it's really good. And I think we both have very good dialogue amongst our friends with that kind of thing, which is definitely important. Completely. And that's another thing in this, you know, the time capsule episode that I heard from you, you were wanting to do more in real life. Yeah.

events and cooking and it's so cool to see when I was listening to that I was like she did she did it which is so fun but also you know talk about spoon management how is that felt being more in person this year it's felt amazing because I as you've touched upon I am an extrovert I'm into I'm an introverted extrovert or an extroverted introvert so I definitely need my time to like

But I get energy from people. And so a whole... And when I say I love cooking for people, it truly is because I just love seeing people having conversations around the table, enjoying my food. It's never for a reason that like... It's never like a selfish reason, if that makes sense. So to be able to extend that so I can like, you know...

I think having a supper club to begin with out of my home was so amazing, but I can't host all the time out of my home. And so taking that to like pop up and being able to like cook for more people, it's just been so wonderful. And, you know, so many, a lot of people have like come back and there's two amazing, beautiful girls called the Darius.

and they're both called Daria and they've been, they come to every single, they're so supportive and they say that they just love my food and it's just really lovely that like I'm able to kind of meet people and hear them say those things which is really just overwhelmingly amazing and

And I love kind of being back in, you know, whenever I'm like doing a pop-up, you're kind of like back in like a restaurant kitchen. So it's really fun like being back in that kind of atmosphere. Although I don't run my kitchen like most chefs or not chefs in general, but like many kitchens that I've been in. I try to keep it very friendly, very collaborative.

What shall we say? Or I like to think. Yeah, it's just been really amazing and I want to continue doing more, you know, pop-ups in person things. Like I said, I've just done two in New York. I'm planning an entire summer next year in Europe doing pop-ups and traveling. Oh, cool. Yeah, I'm going to be in London, Scotland, Greece. We'll talk about that. Yeah, so yeah, just kind of...

Feeling everything out as to whether maybe one day soon I might want to open a little cafe myself. And so doing all of this right now is kind of hopefully going to lead me to a decision down the line. Wow. So I think with what we were talking about with energy management, like we both kind of experienced this too of like having to have period. There are seasons that are very...

internal and that are very inside. And then you went through one of those, I think, on the front end of this and then now are kind of emerging this year. And that's been...

that's been really cool to see but i think it probably is also you know makes you have to i can imagine consider the spoons even more very very much so and touching on what you said like the end of last year i think i told you i was so depleted

And even actually going back to, so even if I do one of my pop-ups, the day after I feel kind of numb. And I think it's one 'cause I'm so exhausted, but just like you're talking so much to people, not only people in the kitchen, I'll always go out and like talk to sit at the table, have a quick little glass of wine with everybody.

it takes so much and like, it's not just that one night, like you're prepping for like three or four days before. And so like, and like a couple of weeks before your mind is focusing on like the menu and ingredients. So yeah,

It is intense. And so I usually try to kind of have a little bit more of like a downtime week after one of these events because I just wouldn't be able to wrap my head around like doing another one. And so I know many people in L.A. that do continuous pop ups and I have I put all props to them.

I'm very lucky that the pop-ups aren't my only source of income because people that are doing pop-ups like, you know, sometimes three times a week. It's different to having your own kitchen because you have your fridge with all of your prep in that you can just keep rolling, you know, kind of rolling over. Doing actual pop-ups, you're having to haul stuff to every single location that you're going to. It's different. It is different to like running a restaurant kitchen. It's very laborious.

And so, so many props to the people that do it more. You know, I do my pop-ups like maybe once every, once a month. And that's a good ratio for me. But maybe that does go back to me having arthritis and needing to kind of preserve some of my spoons. Yeah. And, and I mean, I just, I want to talk about that a little bit, if that's okay, because hearing about your rheumatoid arthritis and just how you live your life and what you have to go through, I think it's,

I learned a lot by reading about it and being your friend that I think it's what we were talking about with energy management and feeling overwhelmed. I think people can relate to no matter what, but there's this whole extra layer that I just... You wrote about it so beautifully on your sub stack and about how it's impacted you and...

You've said that you don't want it to be your identity. And it's so commendable because to me, I'm kind of like, if I were in your position, I feel like I would just constantly have to be like,

wanting to explain this to people who maybe don't understand or don't understand that it's ongoing I think it's very it's tricky for our our minds to or my mind I'll speak for myself to like understand infinity you know as a concept of something that doesn't have a start to an end yeah and that's the the tricky one of the many tricky especially when it comes to parts yes it

Yeah, I think when I first got diagnosed, that was the biggest thing looking back that I found hard to get my head around. And I think that's why I, looking back as well, I didn't realize when I was in it, but had like a mini freak out. Because I think when you find out that information, that it's going to be forever and it could cut my life shorter. And, you know, like, and it's not just, I think a lot of people think rheumatoid arthritis is like swollen joints. It's literally inflammation in your entire body. So it affects my heart, my lungs, like...

Everything can be inflamed, you know? The joints are like a direct response, an immune response to the inflammation in my body. But I have to have like, I have checkups every two months to make sure that all my other organs are okay. Wow.

Yeah, it's like inflammation of the body. When did you get that diagnosis? I can't remember how old I was. I was young. Because I'd been experiencing various different things for a while, but it took a while to get diagnosed. It was like months and months of blood tests. And also, however young I was, I think I must have been around... It was my early 20s. It was just before I moved to San Francisco, I think. And so it...

it is kind of life altering at that point. But also like the medications that they were expressing that they wanted me to go on was all part and parcel of me freaking out a little bit because they're not, you know, they're not just, the medications are pretty intense. I will say that. And I shied away from medication for a little while and I don't live in regret because I am, I'm where I'm at now, but my left knee wouldn't have got so bad. But I feel like,

I feel like that was part and parcel with how my doctor at the time delivered the news to such a young person. Totally. It really was his bedside manner. It just scared me so much. I kind of like, I refused to kind of, I just turned my back on really understanding or knowing what was going on with my body. And some might say that was kind of irresponsible, but that was just how I dealt with it, I suppose. And you don't know until it could have worked or it could have, you know, who knows. Yeah.

But anyway, I'm on the medication now, not the medication that he was asking me to go on. I've actually still refused that right up until this day. It's like a very, it's a very like life altering medication and so many different side effects. I'm on a really great medication now called Embrow, which is,

Honestly, it's changed my life. I was at a very bad point, I'd say, like seven years ago. So much so where there was one morning when I couldn't get to the bathroom. I couldn't walk to the bathroom by myself. And I think it was my breaking point. I called, Andy had to help me to the bathroom. And I just was like, I've had enough. I've had enough. I can't do this anymore. So I called my doctor and actually went on another amazing drug, but an incredibly...

difficult drug on the body is prednisone steroids, but absolutely saved me in that moment. I was like walking again in, in like a day, but that continued. I had pregnant, I was on taking prednisone every single day, I think for like three years as well as Enbrel, which is an injection. So I inject myself once a week and it's an immune suppressant. So it suppresses my immune system and it's just the best. I'm not on prednisone anymore. Thank goodness. Um,

As I said, it's one of the most amazing drugs, but it just ravaged my body. I think lots of people know with steroids, I put on a lot of weight, which was a very like cyclical, annoying thing because then that puts on so much pressure on my joints. So yeah, it was kind of a difficult time because it was the most amazing drug helping me live my life.

But it was also like, yeah, it was pretty difficult on my body. But very grateful to have had that available, to be honest. But yeah, I think, you know, I've been on Enbrel now for the last five years and it's just the best. It enables me to live, I mean, you know, me, very...

from the outside and honestly from the inside, a pretty normal life. Good. Yeah. I'm so sorry that you've had to deal with it, that you have to deal with it. Oh, thank you. It just feels like it's a part of me, but like, as you've already touched upon, it's a part of me, but it doesn't define me. And that's not even me trying to make myself feel better. It's just my, it is, it is just my mindset. It's never been like my defining moment. People will ask about it or like maybe people will know me and I'll tell them like,

Or get to know me and I'll tell them like a few friendship dates in. It's never like the first thing that I necessarily talk about. But not because I don't want to. It's just not the first thing that I think to talk about, you know. Yeah. And I think being someone who's, you know, as you wrote about it, fiercely independent but forcing...

You're being forced to need help and have to rely on people. And what lessons has this taught you, you know, outside of that even? That I can still be fiercely independent, but it's okay to ask for help. And not... There was never any shame around asking help, but I think...

when it got to the point of me needing help or asking for help, then that's like the realization, like this is, this is real. This is, this is true. This is, this is my life. Yeah. I think that's what it is. But even just down to the things like, um, like even just vocalizing to my friends, like I'm having a flare at the moment. I am going to come, but can someone else drive tonight? I don't want to drive, you know, things like that. Um,

It's just, yeah, kind of vocalizing my needs more. And then obviously just like... I think, you know, I had a knee replacement three years ago. That has given me so much more independence again. And...

It's, yeah, again, been very life-changing and transformative even just having the knee replacement. But I also need, I still need help from time to time. Or even with jobs, like I'm going to need an extra day, I'm moving slower. Or like sometimes with friends, I'm like, I'm moving a lot slower this morning. Can we like push our coffee till like 11? Yeah.

because sometimes the mornings is just when my joints are stiff. I really can't not have a shower before I leave the house, not through cleanliness. I have two showers a day usually, but I just can't move unless I shower in a very hot shower every morning. That's just kind of part of my routine. You have to know yourself really well, and it sounds like you do now, but I'm sure that that took time. Yeah, it took a long time.

And also with coming, like knowing yourself is then again, like setting boundaries within that too, which is one thing I'm working on. Yeah. It's tricky. Yeah. What did writing about it feel like? That, that post was so beautiful and I'll link to it. And, and I, I,

I'm really happy that you did that and that you put it out there in your words in a more complete way. Yeah. But what did it feel like for you? Really lovely. And the response as well was like, you know, this was on Instagram and...

And on Substack. Because again, I was like, do I want to write about this? Are people here to listen to this? Maybe not. They're here to listen to food. And they're now listening to travel. And they didn't know they were going to listen to travel either. Or read. I'm saying, sorry, not listen. But I felt like I was having a bad week with my arthritis. And I felt like I wanted to be honest and talk about it. And put pen to paper. Yeah.

And the amount of people that message me being like, thank you so much. This is really... I've sent this to my auntie that really struggles or I've just read this out to my dad and he...

found it really emotional and like it was really nice to be able to relate to somebody. A couple of people, 'cause I'm like in the grand scheme of things young to have it. Rheumatoid arthritis is hereditary but it doesn't have to be. And mine's not. I think a lot of people associate arthritis with elderly people but rheumatoid arthritis you can get at like various different ages. It's not autoimmune disease.

So I think lots of people were like, finally, it's so nice. I'm sorry you're going through this, but it's really nice to hear another 30-year-old's thoughts on having and living with rheumatoid arthritis.

So yeah, it was a great connector actually. And I will probably write about it again at some point down the line when I feel like I want to or I need to. And I'm always open to people ever, like always reaching out to me about anything to do with arthritis, whether it's someone reaching out on behalf of a friend to get advice or maybe you're the person that has it. My email DMs and ears are always open and

But yeah, like I said, it's not something that defines me. And so I'll probably write about it again another time. But it's not something that I'm going to be... I had a conversation with someone recently. I'm actually working on something very exciting, a piece of writing that's going to be very exciting. But someone was asking me if that's going to be included in the large piece of writing that I'm working on. And I said no.

There might be a touch on it, but it's just not what my food's about. Sometimes it's how I might eat. I might cut out gluten for a little while because I'm having a bad flare, but it's certainly not how I cook for other people.

And so, yeah, I might touch upon it. That's your choice to be able to decide, you know, where it fits in, where it doesn't. It doesn't have to be. And I think you do that so well. You touched on this a little bit earlier.

that you recently and regrettably, you know, cut out gluten and dairy. And, and I'm, I'm so happy to hear that that's been, been helpful. Anything that's helpful. Can you talk about that a little bit? Is this the first time that you've had to restrict your food and with what you do and your love of food? And, you know, we talked about that. I'm curious what your background with, you know, it's hard to separate, um,

and body image, you know, and especially just being everyone now, you know, we, I've been thinking about this a lot. We used to get like three, four photos of ourselves a year that we would see and to even know what we looked like. And now, now it's every day, you know, every single day. Yeah. So how, and actually I, can I read a little bit from your piece? Absolutely. Um, you wrote this so, so beautifully about the, the body changes that you mentioned in the midst of that. And you write, um,

Imagine living inside a body that you hate because it's hurting you and in turn not recognizing the person looking back at you all because of this stupid disease. The resentment crept in, but again, I was very good at hiding it and pretending to everyone that I was okay with all of this stuff happening to my body as long as the pain was at bay. And that's

that's so beautiful. You, you, this entire piece, like I said, was so tremendously written, but I think that sentiment of a couple of things in there of having to hide how you feel to just like put on a good face really cuts off connection and is one of the most depleting spoons wise. I think things that I can do and, um,

And then that feeling of not recognizing yourself or feeling like, you know, it's all subjective too, but when our bodies change or when we're not feeling well and then knowing that, you know, the combination of those two things, it's... And then the other layer of food and eating and that being part of your job and your life, I just think there's so much to that. Yeah, no, for sure. And I think even talking about...

that in that piece of writing was kind of like transforming for me to even write it down and then look back at it and be like, oh yeah, that it really was how I was feeling. But when you're in it, you know, I think what it is for me, actually, I look back at photos and I can see some photos and I'm like, I'm in so inflamed there. And yeah,

I think that's from the weight gain from the prednisone, but also because I'm, I have rheumatoid arthritis and I kind of look and I'm like, I feel sorry. I feel bad for that like girl back then, but it's because I knew what I was going through to internally, which was, you know, feeling alien in a body and not recognizing the person that I'm like, that I'm looking at either. But you kind of just need to get on, like you kind of need to figure it out. And yeah,

then you have those like couple of bad days, but then you kind of need to get back up. And that's just how I deal with it anyway. But I think, you know, one friend of mine was just like, oh, I had no idea. Like I would be vocal with like, I'm having a flare today, so I'm not going to come out. But not over the course of like the seven years I had gained quite a lot of weight because of the prednisone.

it's hard to vocalize that because you're just kind of seeing it gradually every single day. And one friend was like, oh, I just, I thought you were like comfortable with it. And it's just like, no, I wasn't. It's just, I had to be. So I'm not going to sit there complaining about it. One, because it was happening kind of slowly and gradually, but like, no, I was never comfortable with not recognizing the person I was looking back at, but it just kind of happened so gradually that,

And through the course of like dealing with so much pain that it just was one day, you know, so I didn't, I was never comfortable with it, but I had no other choice but to kind of deal with it that way. But yeah, I think it's, it's an ever evolving, it's an ever evolving thing that I deal with. And I think for me, it was important to talk about

People have messaged me sometimes being like, I really like that your food is, it is focused and healthy, but you never talk about it in that way. You don't talk about it in a wellness way. And I've kind of thought about that more recently because it was never like a decision that I made. It just is kind of how I've always presented myself and my food. But I, lots of people appreciate that it's not like wellness stricken, but like it is, it is like, you know,

You know, it's very Mediterranean diet style type of food, if you want to call it a diet, but it is just more of a way of life. And I think that's why I also wanted to be really honest and open with people that I was cutting gluten and dairy personally, because I think my persona is me, but it is also my food. It's kind of both things. And I wanted to be honest about the fact that it was very reluctant me that I had to cut gluten and dairy, especially gluten.

And I also reluctantly to say it really, really helped, but it truly, truly did. But I wanted to be honest with everyone about that. It really helped me. But yeah, it brings up that question, doesn't it? Because me as a cook for other people,

I hate the term restriction. I think everything in moderation is truly the best way to eat. And so I was a little nervous about saying I was gonna be cutting gluten and dairy, but I was and it helped. - Yeah, and you have the best reason for that. And not to be judgmental to people who cut things out without a reason. - Totally, it's everyone's personal decision.

when it comes to food and what you put into it is such a personal decision. I never judge anybody. But at the same time, I don't want to be perceived as kind of pushing one thing but talking about another. So I just want to be brutally honest with kind of what I'm doing as well, you know? Yeah, and God, food and eating is so personal and it is so intimate viewing people, I think. But I think I find myself, I don't want to call it judging, but...

I'll say it like this like it we have so few sensory pleasures you know so when I think people like you you said your perspective of everything in moderation and even your even the way you're talking about this like knowing that this is something that helps you and is for a very specific reason that's not prescriptive to everyone yeah or I want to be careful how I say this but

I guess when I see people restricting in a way that is denying themselves so much and takes one to know one, you know? Like, I have a lot of experience in this. But it does make me... It's not as much judgment. Or I guess maybe this is judgment. I'll call a spade a spade. But it makes me sad. It makes me sad. And it makes me... You know, when it becomes part of the culture of just...

But again, you never know unless you're... But when you're close enough to someone to know and it's...

when it's coming from a reason of, and again, it takes one to know one, like because we live in a world that's really mean to people in larger bodies because of standards of beauty exists because of all these things, then of course that we want to control and we want to, you know, have something that, that feels like it's within our control and how, you know, how we feel about our bodies and all of it. And so, um,

It's just really, it's an interesting connection of, um, that, that changes and changes all the time for me. And it's something that is, is tricky, but I think the way that you speak about it so honestly is really important and you do it, you do it so well. And I'm so glad it's been helpful. Thank you.

Yeah, and I think even in this past year, you know, I've been even more, maybe it's because I live in LA, I don't know, maybe it's because I have an autoimmune disease. I've just been really focused on truly what I put into my own body that just I want to feel good. I just want to feel like, and I don't mean look good, I mean like I want to feel good. And I think the way that I eat contributes to that. Like I eat so many vegetables, I eat really beautiful vegetables.

Like protein, not all the time. Like whenever I can afford good protein, I'll, you know, I'm talking like chicken and beef and fish. And so just fruits and vegetables in abundance, honestly, is the best way to eat. And I also really, there's something else that you said that I want to pick up on of like looking back at when you aren't feeling your best or you, or just like taking away the feelings

physical pain that you're in but when you the part of what I read about looking at yourself and not recognizing the person looking back I'm at I think something that I've struggled with a lot and we've talked a lot on the show about body image and we used to a lot more is having to continue like you were saying instead of dwelling on it instead of like because go to the event even though you're feeling it's

Yeah. Like not yourself at all. Yeah. And regardless of changing sizes, but also...

related to that but when it's it affects beauty standards right of like just you you know have a pimple or you your bad hair day or whatever yeah for me it can be a kind of positive feedback loop of like I don't want to go to the thing because I'm feeling self-conscious about how I look when I don't go to the thing I feel like

more depressed and then it's you know what I mean so it might give you life going right yeah right how do you how do we know yeah I think we as females people have unless you're female so this is for all the males out there you just you'll never understand what it is like to be female I'm talking from like the day we are born truly right up until now like my husband and I talk about it all the time it's just like

And I love being a woman. I love it. But wow, isn't growing up crazy? Isn't being a 20 year old in your 20s is nuts? In your 30s is nuts? You know, it's in all the best ways and bad ways, you know, but just trying to navigate life as a female is crazy.

It's crazy. Yeah. I mean, the cycles alone. The cycles alone, body image has been so, such at the forefront of, I'm sure, most of our lives. Yeah. If we had a group of 10 people right now, I bet that were sat here with us right now, I bet everyone has a story about some...

controlled eating situation, whether that's now, whether that's from when they were younger, we've all experienced it. And how wild is that? And I'm just looking like 10 people. I bet if we had 30 people here, everybody could relate. It's crazy. Is that something that in the past that you have had a tricky relationship with? Yeah, definitely. When I was younger. Yeah.

And I think looking back, it was during quite a tumultuous time in my life. My parents were divorced and I didn't think it was affecting me. But looking back, it definitely was. That was a way I could take back some control in my life. And I think it was, yeah, quite a difficult period at some point. And I think that's why I absolutely love food now. And I've always loved food. But I think it's going through a little restrictive period in my life.

which wasn't really about the food. It was more about control, but it can be for many. We've, you know, we've talked about it. It's restricting foods can be for many, many reasons, body image control, whatever. But I think that's why I just absolutely love food and eating now is because I've seen the other side of it as well. Yeah. And I think often it's a combination of all those things. Absolutely. You know, I'll speak for myself. Like what started as this, you know,

Wanting to feel a certain way. But then I, a side effect of that was getting to, without even trying to, getting compliments about how I looked or what I wore and noticing the, how I was perceived and how people treated me so differently and getting addicted to that turned something that started out very earnestly into

about feeding myself well and different from the way I grew up morphed into wanting to not even eat as little as possible to become smaller, but just to remain there because I didn't want to, I didn't want that high of how I, I, I be, I relied on that to, to be able to feel normal, you know? Yeah. Or you're like your version of normal. Yeah, totally. Totally. Totally.

Yeah, and I think when I was going through it, people, this is the twisted way that, you know, all of our minds work. Someone would kind of compliment, but I would be like, they're saying that to like try and make me eat more. Like I would twist it. So I wouldn't even take the compliment. I'd be like, they're trying to be like, or maybe they'd be saying like, oh, maybe it wasn't like that you look great. Maybe it was like, you're looking a little, and I would be thinking, you're just trying to make me eat more. You're like that kind of thing.

So yeah, but like I know that feeling of like of people giving you compliments and you don't in from my mind anyway, I don't even want to like it. But there is that feeling of being like, oh, well, that does feel nice, you know? And I think when I was younger and experiencing that, like now I truly don't want anyone to tell me like, and I think it is more taboo actually now to be like,

It's more like, oh, you look very well. But like back in the day, people were like, oh, you look like you've lost loads of weight kind of thing. It was like more kind of black and white back then. I think more like it's like socially acceptable to kind of like be around the bush a little more now. Yeah. Or not talk about. I try to not talk about people's bodies because you never know. Totally. But like we do. Yeah. And we think about it. But yeah, it will forever be such an interesting subject, I think, to explore.

and not to say that men don't go through it as well, but to all females going back to... There's a double standard for sure. For sure. But like, again, if there was 30 women in the room right now, everybody would be in this conversation with us, would have had an experience or be having an experience about it. And it's crazy. I think it also, it's, change is jarring. You know, I think my experience with this has been whenever...

I don't weigh myself. You can take away many of, many of those, even at the doctor, I like turn around, you know, all of that. Yeah. Yeah. But you have to get dressed every day and put clothes on every day. So you feel it there. Yeah. So you're just aware of our, and then that one you can't take away and you can't take away other people's perception of you and how they, how they treat you. And I think, or not treat you, but I have, you know, my, my mom has been in a larger body since I was born and I,

I've been aware of things that people have said. I was so aware of that as a kid and I think seeing how even though it's changed the wording like you said has changed the specifics of it seeing how people Just like society and how we kind of talk

Yeah. Yeah. It's just, it is there and it is so pervasive. And the translation of things, like I wrote about this in a, in a sub stack recently of, of mine of like, when I got hurt, I, because I've spoken about, you know, being in treatment for an eating disorder and it's like something I've talked about that a lot of people found me that way years ago. And, and even though like you, I don't, I rarely talk about it at all anymore. I'm,

Because of the reason of like, oh, this is like everybody has this and it's which is awful, but true. Yeah, it is something that people often talk to me about because I've opened the door to and I got so many messages from people when it was clear I couldn't walk.

of, of very, you know, kindly, but people were just very directive. Like, are you, what, are you worried about gaining weight? Are you worried about that? And I was like, you know, part, I wanted to be like, no, but now I am. But the truth was like, yeah, I was, but I didn't want to be, and I didn't want to think about it, but now you're asking. And so anyway, I wrote about it and, and something that I, I think is interesting in the way you articulated that was so true of like,

negotiation that we do in our heads or not that translation where I found like when I was when I changed sizes most

most, I guess, and had gained weight from being in when I was much younger, people kept saying over and over again, the first time they saw me since like, oh, you look so healthy. You look so healthy. And I knew that meant you have gained weight since I saw you last, even though they were trying to be kind. And so even now when people said that to me recently, I'm like,

Great. Yeah, yeah. Which, again, it's like... Like, great. And so it's all... Like, we all have all of these, like, perceptions and there's just this big wild soup that is... It's a wild soup. That is, you know, kind of goes back to, you know, even the conversation around palates and food where it's, like, it's so specific. It's so... It is truly wild to me, though, that, like, food is so fun and art and enjoyable. But, like, it's one of those art forms that...

When you go to a movie, it doesn't affect you physically necessarily. But food does. Yeah, and it's just really intertwined in a way that I don't think I'm articulating well. No, you totally are. And even touching upon that, food is at the crux of so much life.

community, anthropology, like, you know, history, us talking about what we're talking about now, like food control, you know, disordered eating. It's also about community, bringing people together, exchanging wonderful recipes. It's very intimate. It's such an intimate form of

it's not just art, it's sustenance too, you know, like it's, it truly is the crux of everything we do. Yeah. And I, I have often thought about this, like in terms of control, like, you know, I think often for people that is such a slippery slope because, you know, the thing is like, it's,

If we think about death, you know, it's like we're all on our way to dying. We know that for a fact. Everyone we know and love is also going to, we're going to lose or we're going to go for it. Like that's insane that we're not talking about that all the time, you know? If you really start to like get esoteric about that. We're just like living our cute little lives. Just knowing that that's going to happen. Totally.

Totally wild. Yeah. So I think that, I think about we have to do things to make us feel better about that so people turn to addiction or work or religion or whatever to just get through and then often to...

heal the not to heal those things but to manage those you know you can practice abstinence for a lot of addictions but food is one that like you have to do harm reduction for and then to be able to enjoy it's so interesting to I guess what I'm trying I guess some of this is self-serving but

For my friends like you and like Kate. And I've talked to her a little bit about this and I've spoken to a lot of people. My friend Maddie is similarly... She loves you and she makes your potato recipe. Aw, the potatoes. Yeah. But she's someone who...

loves food so much and like a meal can make her cry and and has this I've definitely cried over food yeah and and I admire that so much and yet sometimes it puts a my baggage that we all have you know that you do and we all do I can sometimes feel sad that I and again we all do this I'm not making myself special but the

I'm so far away from that with it, even still, where it's like... Where the pleasure is just truly still not pleasurable. Yeah, and for so many years, that was just... Now, I'm like, I missed out on so much of my life to even consider that. And again, it's complicated for everybody, but it just sometimes...

It's very good and helpful for me and I think for people who have been really restrictive to have expanders and people that they can see. Yeah. Experience from. Yeah. And you and Kate because even too it's like it's not appealing to me to look at like you were saying on the Taste podcast like the types of food that. Like the food porn clickbaits.

Yeah, like that's just never going to, that's not going to do it for me. But I think something that is really expansive and to be excited about going out to eat and having a drink and like I, you know, sat on my hands for so long that it's like, all right, this is...

it's more important than it's so unfrivolous you know and yeah anyway I don't it's a total no I completely agree and but it might be something that you're always working on and that's okay that's also absolutely that's that's that's how it will be and I think that is something that

probably us as women are always working on all of us. Yeah, and like you... In some way, shape or form. Yeah, it's not something to... I think I can get really...

I can get sad about the double standard. I think that goes outside of even body image, but just of aging. I think that's hitting me hard lately, but I was having this conversation with someone last night. Yeah. I think that there's a, there that's a whole nother podcast, but it is. Well, I'd be happy to be included. Okay, great. I, I, I, I actually love, I'm really enjoying getting older, but maybe that's because I'm at a place in my life where I feel like whatever, but I,

I've never had anything done to my face ever, but I have been considering Botox and oh my goodness, trying to tell a group of ladies at the table that you're...

What a polarizing conversation that is. Even as like a 38-year-old, like a few of my friends were like, absolutely not. And then someone was like, you do, you know, you do you. And I was just like, well, I didn't leave with any clarification here. So, but yeah, that's another podcast. Yeah. And I'm glad we're like touching on all of this stuff in this one too because something that I have spoken to Kate about actually is the more that...

What's interesting about talking about food and eating out and eating with people is like we said there's an intimacy to it where you get to know some of these things about people and you get to know and we were saying a mutual friend of hers and I's talked to me about their complicated relationship with food and was someone that I never ever would have expected and

just goes to show that everybody you know we hide things well and we all kind of have this and it's totally if we don't you don't really want to talk about it and make it an identity but I I think it is comforting to not feel alone in it to an extent yeah and I think I think it and it's okay to feel comforting as well about it you know and to feel comforted about it knowing that

you're not the only person having those thoughts and feelings around a specific thing. Kind of going back to my arthritis and people messaging me about the fact that me vocalizing it

they would never have known, but were so grateful that I was speaking about it, you know? Yeah, 100%. Okay, I could talk to you forever, but we must get to the asking for a friend portion because I have so many questions from your friends that we have to get to. I'm very excited. Let's just take a little intermission and do, let's talk about LA a little bit. Yeah. Because it feels like place is really important now.

in your work and I know that we we both really love living here and I'm gonna give you a couple rapid fire like just this will be kind of hard but just kind of say the first thing that comes to mind okay okay and we can this will be a time capsule because next year will be different love okay

These are favorite place to, and then I'll give you in LA for this. Okay. I was going to say for coffee, but for you, I know it's, it's matcha. So favorite place to go right now for matcha with a friend or by yourself. I feel you already know this already because we see each other there all the time. It's either going to be, can I pick two places? Yeah. And I literally see you at both of these places all the time. It's going to be Canyon coffee, obviously, or Amara cafe. Okay.

Okay, great. For people watching. Canyon coffee. That's a popular answer to everybody. Overhearing conversations. Yeah. Okay, a long catch up with a friend where you can linger and it'll be more spacious. Any time of day that you want. Highly likely cafe. Great. Best small...

Oh, what did I write here? These are all very like what I want to know. Best food that's something small where you're, you know, maybe not too hungry, but you definitely want to have a snack with a friend, maybe a glass of wine. Barra Santos. Great. Best oysters. Queen Street, without a shadow of a doubt. Or found oyster, but, you know, same people. Best salad. Sam's place at the moment. I am such a salad freak. Like...

Sometimes I'll order the same salad twice so I have a big salad. I'm a salad freak. Oh, yeah. Like, yeah. Like, I'm talking like in the same sitting. I'll be like, can you put that in a bigger bowl? I'll order two. Sam's Place. But I will say close second is the Queen Street with the salad with the dates. Oh, it's so good. Oh, my God. It's so good. But the salad at Sam's at the moment with the like little crunchy crackery things in and the cheese. Yeah.

It's amazing. Sounds nice. It's so good. I add that Heidi and I... The herb salad is cool. Yeah, it's really good. Really good. I also...

my friend has been going to Jar for many, many years and we go... I'm still yet to go. Oh, we have to go. Oh my goodness. I've only ever been with him so I feel like I don't even like, wouldn't even like know how to do it. Yeah. But I order two salads whenever I go there and one is, I call my dessert salad because it also has dates and it's similar, it has a similar vibe to that one. Yeah. And I did really good salad. Oh, I hadn't been to All Time before but I went with Lauren and that group of friends. The best, right? That big, I think it is called the big salad. It's called like the big...

the big best salad or something it's so good really pumpkin seeds I love pumpkin seeds on a salad yeah best breakfast best breakfast

Can I pick two? Yeah. Depending on my mood. I'm going to pick three. I'm sorry. Courage for Bagels without a shadow of a doubt. I've never had that. Oh my. Katie, we have to go. Okay, great. Like, we have to go. Justa for like anything and everything. And then Amara for their breakfast burrito. I don't care what anybody says. Their breakfast burrito is my favorite burrito in LA. It's so good. And the tortilla is so good. I...

I have gotten that burrito, of course, and I do love it. The purple potatoes? Yeah, I don't get that there, though. I get the... I can never remember if it was the green eggs or the purple eggs. The green. The green? Delicious. Because it has... Not the one with the patties. No, yeah, the green eggs. Yeah, and it's the... That's like my one meal here that I get often. Oh, I mean, everything at Amara, quite honestly. I really do love it. And their matcha Arnold Palmer with their matcha rose Arnold Palmer...

The best drink ever. I'm not a matcha guy, but do you like chai? I don't. I like chai, but I don't drink it as much. I don't either, but theirs is particularly good. They're great. I just love Amara. And it just so happens to be like five minutes. Yeah, I pointed to it. Okay. Favorite food memory in L.A.?

Favorite food memory in LA is pre-pandemic. My friend Danny and Andy, my husband and I, this is when we first moved. And I'd say it was like the first six months we were living here. We would go out every Friday for like far too many meals.

Mezcal Old Fashions. And we would go without a shadow of a doubt to Leo's, Leo's, Leo's Taco Truck on Hollywood Boulevard. And it was just a ritual that for some reason we just, I think it's because we don't live in those fields anymore, but we just don't do it anymore. We don't drink that amount of copious amount of cocktails anymore.

But it was like without a shadow of a doubt, we would go, we'd even go for like dinner, then cocktails, but we'd still go for tacos after. So fun. Every single Friday. Yeah. Layers. Yeah. I love a weekly standing date. I lived really close to superiority burger in New York. Still never been. Oh, you have to go. And they, they had only on Fridays they would do focaccia. And so we would get that, the salad and, and it was like, they did all different kinds. Um, um,

and i love a weekly standing date yeah best date night spot if you were going to go on a date where would you go where would you recommend so marvin on beverly is our date night spot we even if a two-top was offered to us we would never take a two-top we always sit at the bar without a shadow of a doubt the wine list's fab the food is

And it's a restaurant that's been open, I think, for maybe like 10 years. It's just still so good. And it's just the perfect, like the lighting and like the staff. It's just a perfect date night. Oh, great. Never been. You need to go. We need to go. A date night? Yeah. Okay. Any other... That concludes the LA portion of the rapid fire. Anything else that you want to add that you...

LA wise that you want to recommend that we didn't cover? Not really. Just like if you ever want to find me, you'll either find me at Queen Street and then the pipeline to Capri, like or back, start Capri and then go to Queen Street. Truly. If you need to find me anyway, that's usually where you'll find me and Kate. Good to know. I might be using that information. Yeah. It's like Apple find my, you don't need your phone. Yeah,

Okay. Yeah, that is useful because I used to be able to just walk down Fig and see her. I know. Well, maybe she's going to come back. I know. Yeah, fingers crossed. We're talking about it as if she's like crossed the pond. No, she's literally in Silver Lake. Okay, so...

What is your advice for someone, we'll say, who doesn't really like cooking but wants to cook more? Advice? I would find one dish that you maybe enjoy eating but find enjoyment cooking. Whether that means it's a long, laborious thing because you enjoy the chopping part of it or it could be the reason that you like it is because it's super quick.

but find a reason to want to make even just one thing. For me, I love obviously all different forms of cooking, but I love prep. Like I love, like if I've got a dinner party, I'll usually purposely pick like quite a,

laborious thing to cook because I absolutely like, love cutting, cutting the vegetables. Going back to when I worked in a bar, like I would be always volunteering to cut the lemons and the limes because I just like the process of like, you know, getting things together and in their little portions. And so like some people might take pleasure in that, but some people might just want to like heat up some beans and put it on toast, but find, find the pleasure in making the food. That's a really good one. Okay. It's in the name of your, um,

and we've been talking about doing a soup night forever. Favorite soup to eat? This is a very difficult one. I already talked about it. It's called scotch broth. Oh, right. It's basically lamb shanks cooked with vegetables. It's almost like lamb minestrone, but it's got like really beautiful like plump meat.

pieces of pearl barley in it and it's just it reminds me of nanny it reminds me of home I don't make it that often because it is kind of long it's a braise and I'm gonna add another one in that minestrone without a shadow of a doubt I make probably some version of minestrone throughout literally the entire year once a week so tell me a little bit about cafe june my soon-to-be favorite restaurant what if maybe there's just a

a part of the vision or something new that came in or what do you think? Sure. If I ever open anywhere, it's going to be called Cafe June after my nanny, after my grandma, June. It'll be a small little place, maybe 15 seats. It will be a cafe. We will serve cafe food, cafe style food from my lens, but we might open Thursday, Friday, Saturday night for wine and dinner.

it will be such a hub of the community because I will make it that way which I honestly I think it would just be because all of us guys will just be hanging out there it will only be a blackboard menu I don't want menus but

And it will be a space for other people to gather. People have been so beautiful and courteous in opening their spaces for me to do pop-ups and whatever else, not just, I want it to be a space where other people will feel comfortable coming to ask me if they could do, you know. Live podcast. Absolutely. Yeah, I want it to be a real like center of the community. And we kind of talked about this earlier as well. Like I don't want it to be a place where like people are like,

clamoring to come to. I think if I do open, it will be quietly and you might not know about it for a little while. It will be really special to me. I can't wait. Thank you. Okay, these are from others. So this is from Monica. What was the scariest part of her whole journey in cooking? Being perceived and having your cooking perceived but also that's what strengthens the scariness, strengthens your...

want to need to continue. But always, as soon as you present anything to anyone, like you're open to being perceived and it's really horrible and scary, but it also drives me. Okay. This is sort of related also from Monica. Does she ever feel imposter syndrome and about what aspect in cooking? Absolutely. All the time. Um, and I think anyone that is saying that they never experienced imposter syndrome is lying because

And honestly, usually, you know, we kind of talked about it. It's like some of the dishes that I want to put out and I'm like, well, people get it. And I think I'm learning that I'm going to just kind of have to move past that and going back to the lamb ragu toast.

you know, it's, it's kind of given me the confidence to kind of work through those imposter syndrome type moments. But yeah, I think probably it will be like plucking up the courage to put the dishes on that. I'm like, is this too simple? Is this, will people get this as a, it's a very British whatever. Um, and I think, yeah, I need, you just got to move past it. Yeah. Like New York. Yes, exactly. Okay. This is from Heidi. Best food vacation. And what did you eat?

Best food vacation. Oh, there's not one singular. I think it's going to be Italy because it's all encompassing for me. The people, the landscape, the food, the community, the simpleness, the peasant style eating, the three ingredients to an incredible pasta.

And then just experiencing it as from because I went to culinary school last year from that perspective was just it was life changing. So I think Italy, Italian food. Yeah. OK, this is from Danielle and sort of related. It seems that you are quite the travel bug and wonder that Wunderlust gal. But what if what about L.A.? What have you loved about Los Angeles where you call home?

I have met the most amazing friends that I've ever met in my entire life in LA. I have obviously wonderful friends from everywhere that I've lived, but I have met my people. I have met my community. I've never felt more seen, more heard, more supported. I love the city. I love how big it is. I love that if I want to go to Beverly Hills, I can. And if I want to go to Sunset Tower and get a martini, I can. But then I can also...

chill on the east side and feel at home here. I've never felt more at home in my adult life as I do right now in Los Angeles. This is where I was always meant to be. I love the people. I love that it's so diverse. I love that we have the ocean, we have the mountains. Yeah, it's the best place on earth for me. I love that. Okay, this is also from Danielle. Where do you find recipe inspiration? Everywhere. Everywhere. The people I meet, the places I travel,

flowers that I see at the market, talking to people, reading cookbooks. I intake so much food media. It's truly wild. Like I'm always sat reading cookbooks. I read them like novels. I'm always reading food writing. I'm always on Instagram. And I say like, you know, certain dishes will influence me, but like, I won't be like creating that dish. I'll taste a flavor in that dish and think, oh, do you know what?

Like today, I made the farinata today with... What did I make it with? Carraway seeds. With carraway seeds. Because I have like a rosemary and carraway seed scone the other day. And this morning, I was like, oh, I'm going to put carraway. You know what I mean? Like, yeah. So everything. It's all around us. Inspiration for food is everywhere. Oh, I love that. Okay, this one...

might not be this also from danielle chloe on the go share with us where your next pop-up is but i don't know exactly when this will be coming out but we want we want to do an event together so hopefully there'll be there'll be information about that whatever um well i'm gonna do my next one is gonna be at cafe della gramma on november the 14th so we we may have already missed the boat on that one but i have tons more pop-ups coming up this year i've got um already in talks with

two other places in New York early next year. Maybe New York in a couple of weeks. And then next summer. I mean, I could just, I could list everywhere, but I'll do a quick, so it's gonna be London. So far I've got London, Scotland, Athens, Puglia, and south of France. Wow. Lined up for pop-up.

but again it's literally next summer so there's so much to plan but I'm going to be in Europe for a chunk next year so exciting okay these are from our patron saint of this episode Kate last meal last meal

Oysters to start and then also latkes with caviar and creme fraiche. Then I want a bowl of minestrone soup. Then I want a New York strip steak with a poivre sauce.

And I want the potatoes with that. And then for dessert, I want sticky toffee pudding with salted caramel sauce and unsalted whipped cream. That was the greatest answer to that question. Just rattled it off so well. That was incredible. Gas station snack, also from Kate. Honestly, this is really boring. I'll try and find fruit. I'll try and find an apple or banana. I don't like gas station snacks. If I ever road trip, I take my own lunch. I think that is what...

What I would do, and I hate to speak for Kate, but I feel like she would probably be looking for that as well. Do you ever look at, this is from me, by the way, because I'm also a friend, so I'm allowing myself to jump in here. Do you ever look at people and guess what their favorite food might be? No, actually. But I do get surprised when I get to know people and realize some foods that they don't enjoy.

So for instance, like I always get shocked when someone doesn't like, I don't know, seafood. It's kind of a lot of people, like a decent amount. And I'm like, you guys, you're missing out. Or yeah, I don't ever like guess what they don't like from the outset, but I'm always quite surprised when I see about,

When I get to know people's eating habits, some people really don't like quite a lot, like many things. Yeah. That's again, like it goes back to the intimacy of it. There's something about knowing someone through what they like or what they don't like. You can kind of...

Not even in a judgmental way, but I've had this moment, I think in dating too, where you're like, huh. You're like, there's something there of knowing what people eat and like and don't like that can be telling. Yeah, yeah. Okay, this is from Lauren. What's the strangest thing you've ever eaten or prepared? Strangest thing I've ever eaten. I mean, it's not that strange, but...

I think in Paris, but everyone should eat snails. They're delicious. I didn't love when I, I tried them like my first night in Paris and, but it was maybe a, the, the snail we had it. And I feel like I'm open to everything. Everything covered in garlic butter is divine to me. I guess also, it was on like a seafood. Oh,

no. Yeah. It didn't seem, didn't work for me. Yeah. Okay. Well it was, it wasn't cooked in anything and it was cold. It was like with oysters. Interesting. Okay. I've never had them like that. Maybe that, I don't, but I love all raw. Me too. I love raw clams. So that's why I was down. Yeah. But I'm not,

I just don't love rabbit. I don't enjoy eating rabbit and I love like game. Like I'm not like, I eat many, many different animals. So at least I just don't love rabbit. Yeah. But that wasn't even the question. No, I was going to add to it and ask what you didn't, what foods you didn't like. So that was excellent. Um,

This was a delight. We have talked for fully two hours. You have to get to your call. But I love you so much. Thank you for doing this. Love you too. Thank you so much for asking me. Is there anything that's called Let It Out? So is there anything that you wish that I would have asked that you never get to talk about that you want to add? No. I think we've covered so much fun stuff. And then also...

things that were important to talk about and I appreciate you so much thank you for this conversation and being my friend oh thank you okay so we end by letting out a deep breath so you ready okay inhale let it out we did it and the card worked

Okay, that was my episode with Chloe. Thank you so much for listening all the way to the end. Thank you so much to Chloe for everything that she shared and how open she was and how much time we spent. This episode, listen, it was the episode that almost wasn't. And that's because I forgot the...

SD card at my house and I could have just gone back to get it, but you know, I was already there. And anyway, she had an extra SD card from her camera. We popped it out, we put it in. And the whole time I gotta be honest with you, I was a little bit anxious that it wasn't going to work or wasn't going to record because I really loved his conversation. And I didn't think, you know, we would have just been able to rerecord it because she's obviously so kind, but

I don't know. We might not have been able to catch lightning in a bottle twice. So I'm really grateful that the little SD card that could recorded this and that you're able to listen to it right now. Subscribe to her sub stack right now. Follow everything that she's doing. She's incredible on Instagram and anchovies and soup.

And again, I just really appreciate her being here. We're going to do more together. We're going to do an event together. So if you want information on that, follow both of our sub stacks. I have one too. It's called Let It Out Lists. And I just am so grateful that you are listening all the way right now to the very bitter end. It's the holidays. Can you believe it? Again, also speaking of, happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving.

Yeah, I don't really have more to say about that other than remember the Black Friday offer from Magic Mind. Give it a go. It's currently 50% off until the 6th of December only with my link, which is magicmind.com slash L-I-O-B-F. Give that a go. Follow everything that Chloe does closely.

Keep in touch with us. My name is Katie Dalebow. If you want to know more about me, you know where to find me. Let us know if you listen to this. Post it on Instagram. Also, this podcast itself has Instagram, believe it or not. It's Let It Out with three Ts. It's also me.

But feel free to mention both of us and all three of us and we will repost it and share it with other people. If you liked this, please share it with a friend. It helps so much. Truly, you have no idea. I'm just so grateful that I'm able to do this at all and get to have these conversations with friends and strangers. It will be 12 years next year, which is wild. I cannot believe I'm still doing this, but I'm really grateful that I am and that's because you are listening right now. So...

More soon, more next week. We have a couple interesting wildcard sort of episodes coming out. And I will talk to you then. This podcast is edited by Jeremiah. Bye-bye.