Long-Term Liminal Space: What to Do When You’re in Between with Ashley Stahl
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I think that one of the most important things that we can do is give ourselves enough space and time to have ideas that we can pursue that we feel really alive about. And one of the biggest mistakes people make in their career is they just jump on the bandwagon of ideas and plans just for the sake of having plans versus choosing something that really feels alive and true for you. Hi, welcome back.

Welcome to Let It Out. I claimed last time, I believe, that it was the last episode of the year, but, you know, I didn't make any promises. And here's another one, sneaking in at the tail end of 2024. Perhaps you're not even listening to this the day it comes out. And if that's the case, happy new year. Welcome to the show. This week, I talk to Ashley Stahl.

She's someone who you may remember if you've been listening for a long time. She was on a couple years ago, and I'm so happy to get to catch up with her. We recorded an episode of me on her podcast, which I don't think is out yet, so when it is, I'll let you know. But after that, we had more to talk about, so I was like...

come back on mine too and we recorded a part two which you're about to hear which is not really a part two, it's just a separate conversation. So we get into talking about what it's like to be in a space of needing to wait for the next, as she calls it, elegant idea and being in that liminal space and how to have discipline within that

And much more. So here's that conversation. As always, I'm so grateful that you're here, that you're listening. And it genuinely means so much. If you like this show and...

you find anything of value from it share it with a friend leave a review it actually helps so much and i it's you know embarrassing to ask but it really does help so i just want to keep doing it and i plan to i plan to keep doing it in the new year so let me know if there's anything that you want to hear anything you want more of or want less of i'm open to your feedback as always my

Email is just katie at letitoutwith3ts.com and I would love to hear from you. Okay, here's my conversation with Ashley. Okay, Ashley, welcome back. I'm so happy to have, this is part two of a conversation that we started last week and you were so kind to invite me back onto your show and it just wasn't enough time. We needed, I think every time we ever had

at least recorded talk. We're going to need part two, three, four, five, six. We could go on forever, but we had such a great time reconnecting. We did this exact same thing, each other's shows about three years ago, I think. I think it was 2021. And I think I was saying last time, it's such a time capsule. I listened back to those episodes and they were such a time capsule of where both of us were. And we really connected back then and kept in touch. And then

Here we are a couple of years later. Thank you so much for having me. And it's so nice to be back with you. And I think I remember our mutual friend Libby introducing us. Yes. And that's just the best, like birds of a feather flock together. Yes. Yes. It's, I remembered that as well. I didn't when we were emailing and then I mentioned it and-

I think the intro of that episode and I was like, oh my gosh, it was such a, yeah, such a special thing that can happen. Like it's truly makes me so happy. The friends that I've met that I've been like friends set up with it. People know Libby and I have the same birthday and we share a best friend. One of my best friends from Michigan is also best friends with her. And we always joke, like, what does it mean about our friend Amanda that she has two best friends with the same birthday? That's so sweet. Yeah.

And feels like it validates something in astrology. I don't know what. A hundred percent. Yeah. So, okay. We just took a pause and we're picking back up because we were mid conversation about so many things about pivots, about changing. And I think you have grown and changed obviously in many different directions since we spoke, but I guess you,

Since about three years ago, what are some of the major things that you have learned and how have you evolved or things that have been helpful to you in your work, in your life in the last just few years? I love this question. Nobody's really asked me that. And I've been back on some podcasts and it's so cool for you to think in this way because there is so much that changes for anyone. And I think as somebody who used to talk a lot about career and purpose and

It's like who we are is a growing, moving organism. And for some reason, people expect purpose to be some sort of destination versus something we're dancing with. And I've definitely had a dance with it in the past few years. When we last spoke, my book was coming out, U-Turn. And the message of that book was don't do what you love, do what you are. So don't follow your passion. Instead, figure out what your gifts are. That was what the whole book was about, figuring out your gifts and applying that into your career.

And the book kind of felt like a culmination of a huge body of work that I'd developed over years and years and years. And I felt complete with being a career coach. And it was such a weird feeling because there's that luminal space in between when you're done with something, but it's not done with you and you're not onto your next chapter yet.

And I kind of sat with that. It was like, my book is out. It's like this perfectly wrapped 312 page present of everything I know about careers. And now I don't want to talk about careers anymore. Like I'm, I completed it. And who am I without that? And so I spent two years living in New York city. I hid from New York during the winter. I went to Florida, like all the snowbirds. And that was that city. It's so funny. People go there to work a lot. I went there to just be.

And every single day I would walk my dog, sometimes for two hours. I took on just a few career coaching clients to pay my bills. And I got the idea to create Wise Whisper Agency. I'd had a lot of ghostwriting companies before.

but never did I get the inspiration to niche down. And so specifically Wise Whisper, we craft keynotes, we ghostwrite books, but we've also attracted a lot of clients who have come in for us to craft signature talks for them and get them booked on really big stages. And one of the stages we get asked about the most is the TEDx stage. So we've probably crafted over a hundred TEDx talks and we've probably booked well more than a

And I'm really proud of that because I think these talks have become such a beacon of people's self-expression. And for me to be some part in someone's journey of them getting their biggest message out there in millions of people to me has been so meaningful. So I guess Wise Whisper Agency is like my new era of who I am now. And I'm smart enough to know now that that'll eventually change too. Yeah.

Yeah, that's the wisdom. One of the many positive things that comes with age is a bigger sample size to know that. Yeah, this is, I have so many questions. What you said about TED Talks is really, congratulations. It's such a great business and you're helping so many people, I think, distill knowledge.

I mean, I truly need exactly what your agency offers because I believe I do have a message and I've had like you, you know, I wrote this book about journaling many years ago. I do still feel connected to that. Maybe not in the form and the aesthetic of the cover of that book or the phrasing that I used in it, you know, when I was younger, but

But the concept and the tool of writing for emotional wellness, obviously, I still use and I'm grateful I chose that as my topic. But we evolve. And I think now I've picked up different skills and different parts of my work and my message. And I'm very much figuring out like we were talking about in the last episode.

episode on your show, what my next ethos is and hearing you speak about what the agency does. Yes, I can get to some of that on my own with journaling, with my own work on myself, with therapy, with friends. But I think having another person

person, a neutral person who cares and is skilled in what the market is looking for. How to be concise and distill something is such a valuable offering. And yeah, I'm just, I'm really glad that exists. And like I said, TED Talks, I've

first became aware of them when I was in college and one of my professors gave one and it was a really big deal. And I was so in awe of them. And then I, you know, just listened to them all. I still do. I watched one like yesterday morning. And what is it about that format? What is it about that stage and some of the creative constraints that it offers? Why do you think that that's so valuable to,

to people's careers right now and to consumers to take in information in that format. With 41 million subscribers, that's what TEDx has. And then TED has 25-ish million. They pretty much represent the biggest stage in the world.

And I think it's interesting because a lot of people think about TED or TEDx. And while I'm not affiliated with TED or TEDx in any way, and I simply am somebody who really loves what the brand can do and has helped a lot of people figure themselves out with it.

What I will say is that I feel like there's so many business owners, so many people in their career, and they're working so hard to create opportunities for themselves all the time. And what I'm so passionate about is helping people skyrocket their brand, create authority by them being them, right? Like them truly being themselves. And the thing about that is

that's so powerful is that you can really choose how to get your 80-20, how to get your ROI really met with that. And there's too many people, I think, that are doing one thing after the next, hoping that people see their work, hoping people see their heart. And to me, just making your way onto a YouTube channel that has 41 million subscribers, you're kind of just going straight to the top of the stairwell.

And what I love about it is that the TEDx brand seems to really be a democracy. Like they have high schoolers getting on their stages and they have people who are first-time speakers. It's not about who you are. It's about what your story is. And everyone has a story. You know, some clients come into Wise Whisper and they say, I don't know if my story is good enough. And

I tell them, first of all, we have some of the best writers in the world on our team. And let me tell you, they can make art out of walking into a grocery store. Like they can make a story out of that and turn that into a poetic experience. So I think...

It's not always about the story and what happened, but what you reflected on or what you felt that makes the story interesting and being able to share that with people. And so we really work to help pull stories out of people that they may have never considered. And a lot of people ask us, what's the difference between Ted and TEDx? And again, while I'm not at Ted or TEDx and I can't officially say so, what I've seen is that Ted is pretty much invite only. Like you see Bill Gates, Elon Musk, people like that.

I have heard of people who pitch and make their way onto that stage through application, but it's kind of a long shot versus TEDx is a licensed nonprofit with the same brand credibility, if not better. TEDx has more subscribers, so it's actually better for your brand to get on there, better exposure. There's 13,000 TEDx events and they're all run by volunteers. So if you can get at any given moment, you know, with all these thousands of TEDx events happening,

you know, 10, 13,000 of them. Maybe there's one or 2,000 active people

and you can apply to be on these stages. And those are licenses from TED to TEDx. And that license allows the TEDx event to run and it allows them to have speakers and it allows them most importantly to submit your talk from their stage onto the TEDx YouTube channel. And what people don't realize is if you do well on the TEDx YouTube channel, you get a spot sometimes on the TED channel. So you get a complete second wave on your talk and

And the TED brand also has a network of translators that put your talk into a different language. And so it's just truly the gift that keeps giving for your brand. Wow. I have never really considered how when you say all that, I'm like, oh, of course, right. Like it's wild that I haven't.

considered it more than I than I have to I mean it's to the point where it's a meme like it's a people's you know are telling a story and they're long-winded and they're like damn thanks for coming to my ted talk you know or that's my ted talk like it's that ubiquitous that it's

everywhere. And yet I haven't prioritized it as a goal at all. And I really love what your agency does. Like what you said, you have a team of incredible writers. That makes so much sense to me because I'm friends with so many writers here. I have such a community of people who are writers in different disciplines. And constantly, you know, when we're voice texting back and forth or when we're out to dinner, we're just whatever. It's

we're often to each other. I think of Maddie and Stella, especially like they'll say, like, I'll say something or I'll phrase something in a certain way, or I'm just telling them about like a date or a breakup or a, you know, something that happened with me on a Thursday. And they're like, write that down. Like, that's good. And often it's never things that I would have clocked in myself, but I do the same thing to them often where I'm like, tell me more about this, you know? And

And I think that's what having a, you know, I think we're very collaborative as people. And I think you can, you know, what you can do in our own brain, we can expand and multiply with other people. And especially, like I said, a neutral, supportive person who is able to be your sounding board and pick out those

Parts of your story and then write them into a way that works for that format is so tremendous. So I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm really excited to learn to actually, you know, hear more about how this works in practice. So if let's just say someone is listening and like maybe wants to work with you or wants to book a

to be part of the agency and potentially do their TED Talk or just as curious like myself, maybe we'll figure out that idea right now. But what is something to consider before, let's say they booked a session with you or someone on your team to...

start this process. I'm sure that would just start with a conversation, but to prepare for that conversation, is there anything that you tell people to consider or contemplate before that? Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, everybody does have a story. And I think that there's

A couple lenses to look at giving something like a TEDx talk or any sort of really big keynote. The first question is, what is it about for you, right? Like, what do you want out of it? Forget the talk content, the message, anything. What do you want happening in your life because of this talk? I think it's important to make sure you're aware and you're taking care of yourself in that way. I think the second thing to consider is, what do you want for the world? Like, what do you know? What do you deeply know that you want the world to really get

maybe they're not getting right now in your perception. And then I think the third piece is where do you have the most original thinking? So we have a lot of experts that come in and they could easily say that they could give a talk about this, that, or the other thing, right? Like I'm thinking of a fertility expert who came in and she's like, I could talk about like how your diet affects your fertility. I could talk about

self-esteem and IVF. Like she had all these different topics, but when we started asking her to riff about each of those three different layers of expertise, she had one topic that really felt the most original. And it felt like,

It was where there was the most original thinking. And that's where you really want to go. No matter how much expertise you have, the chances are a lot of the things you say in different areas of your expertise, it's not that they've been heard before in the way that you would say them, but they're not going to grab people's attention in the same way that other things you might have to say are. And that comes back down to original thinking. So

I have a TED Talk called How to Figure Out What You Really Want. And I think I have a lot of original thinking in there. There's three core questions in there. I talk about clarity. And the way I was able to choose that content was, and by the way, with a talk that is, you know, 10 to 20 minutes, you can't fit more than two to three talking points. So you really do need to think what is your best? What do you have to say that is your best and most original content?

And the way that I was able to choose that stuff was through tuning in to when clients, people, friends really leaned into me, clicked into me, or told me that I helped them in a unique way. It was about me setting the intention to figure out where I'm uniquely helpful, where I'm different, where I'm really getting people's attention. So...

I would say those are the first few things to think about. Another thing to think about is just your life experiences. Like I tell every single client to make a life timeline. What does that mean? That means maybe think about like 10 events in your life and how they impact you, you know? So that means what are 10 events in your life that really changed the way you think, that really changed the way you see the world?

And it doesn't have to be big events, right? It doesn't have to be like graduating college or getting married. It could be something as small as getting your first present for your birthday and remembering that first gift. Or it could be as small as not being invited to a birthday party when you were 10. And that really impacted how you make friends with people still. And you had to do a lot of work in therapy about it. It's looking for little tiny life moments. Yeah. Yeah.

It's so good. It's, you know, and essentially, it's very similar to the format of a, of an essay or have a personal essay of, you know, you have a thesis, and you have a place of destination, essentially, and then you're going to get people there in the most interesting and original way.

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I mean, my question is, how do you know that something is an original thought? Because I was kind of thinking through where I would begin with this. And I believe that's a TED Talk, but so many things are, I would always say this about self-help, like it's all been said, but we need everyone to say it because we're

hear things in different forms, right? But that's important. And I think it's similar with information, but one of the TED Talks that sticks out to me is, I think it's called Everything's a Remix, and it

It goes through and shows, you know, how everything is recycled and everything. But there's also plagiarism and there's also inadvertently picking up. I used to be so fearful about this and I used to do it. And I still am susceptible to this where I think we all are in some ways. But picking up mannerisms from other podcasts or other people, that's

sayings, like catchphrases. And I had to stop taking in things that I loved because I was like, oh, I'm so malleable. I'm going to take this on as if it's my own without even subconsciously. So if someone is trying to decide if an idea they have is original or not, like I'm thinking of this video I made in 2019, people really liked. And all I was saying was that

nobody's coming to save you if you want to make your art or you want to make your hobby or you want to do that thing or go on that date or whatever, like you have to do it.

or it's going to eat you up. And that has been said in so many different ways by many different people. But I guess the way that I said it, and I came to that after working with people, helping them start podcasts and leading my workshop, led a podcast out for years and working with people one-on-one. And I would do consulting calls and I would do these classes and

The questions I would get weren't what I thought. It wasn't, you know, what microphone to use or how to do a transition interview. It was like, what is my friend from high school going to think when I put this out in the world? And I was helping them emotionally through creative blocks of communication.

giving them a permission slip to do the thing that they want to do. And that became my workshop creative underdogs that I led throughout the pandemic and after. And I feel like that's an original thought, but as I'm saying it, I'm like, well, people have said that in different ways. So I guess that's very long winded question, but how do you, as an example, like, how do you wrestle with that? How do you know how original does it have to be? And is that what having another neutral mindset,

Perhaps I can't come to that on my own. That's what having someone like you and someone from your agency is able to help you determine.

Yeah, I think that a lot of times we are, it's hard to read the label, you know, when you're in the jar. So I think sometimes the most important way to tune into your originality is to riff with someone that you think is really wise, someone who is your ideal customer. There's many different types of people you can riff in front of, but even if you have a business, asking your customers, especially if you're a content-related business, like,

What is the thing that I've said that's impacted you the most, that's made you think differently the most? So ultimately, I think it's usually from other people's feedback. And it's not to say that you should decide what to say based on the whole world's opinion of you. But I do think that there's just a mirror there and being able to collect feedback from people who see the value in what you have to say. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like, yeah, like you said, it's really tough to do that on your own. It's something that we have to, we'll never see ourselves clearly. Someone said this to me once on the podcast that we have to outsource our perception of ourselves to someone who cares about us or someone who's at least neutral and it'll be more

close to how we actually are than what we're thinking, especially when we're down or depressed or just like you said, too. I love that about the jar. So that's really helpful. The other question, if it's the opposite, not trying to decide if something is original or not, what if it's just like taking it from the top or you feel like in your case and perhaps doing a second TED Talk, like

Like you had something, but you're waiting. And I think we were kind of edging on this in the last episode on your show where you're waiting for the next, what did you call it? The next aligned idea? Yeah, like the elegant idea. Elegant idea. I loved that. Can you talk about that and how to get closer to it? Yeah, I think that one of the most important things is

that we can do is give ourself enough space and time to have ideas that we can pursue that we feel really alive about. And one of the biggest mistakes people make in their career is

They just jump on the bandwagon of ideas and plans just for the sake of having plans versus choosing something that really feels alive and true for you. In my case, those years that I lived in New York, I just took on a very low amount of clients. And I understand that there's a lot of privilege in being able to be in that position, having built a business that sent me leads and I could charge prices that supported me and supported my clients. But I just kind of looked at myself like I was in a portal.

when I lived in New York, and it was like a slow simmer energy in my career. And what that meant was I'm just going to slow simmer everything I've ever built and just put it at the medium pace or the lowest pace to support myself while I allow that space for my next elegant idea to come in. I'd also had ghostwriting companies for a long time. And

It wasn't until, you know, maybe like the 10th friend of mine said, can you help me craft my TEDx talk? I need somebody to brainstorm with. I need somebody to help me outline this. And I had such a joy doing that. And that was what turned into Wise Whisper Agency. So, yeah, that's it. It's like giving yourself enough, like you said, enough time and space and alone time and

I think we've talked about this before. And one of my favorite things that stuck out to me from the first time we spoke was about rushing. And you said it, and I've never forgotten where you were like, I have a rushing problem. I used to have a rushing problem and I've never felt more seen. You articulated something that I had forgotten.

been very experienced in, unfortunately. But I think that's it. Giving yourself time and space and alone time, even when you don't want to, and not forcing it because it will take time and managing your nervous system within that. So then the idea is

can come in and it'll take as long as it takes. And with that, something you wrote about in your most recent newsletter, and you mentioned Mel Robbins' five-second rule, and you're writing about discipline. And I have had periods where I've been overly disciplined and then the pendulum has swung the other direction and I've overcorrected. But it's something that we have to manage the dial on

But what have you and I think it really relates to this part of having the discipline to give yourself the alone time and space for the ideas to come in. But how do you manage that in your own life? And how have you seen that connected to your work with others as well?

Yeah, I love that quote about how discipline is freedom. And I think about that a lot because I love eating sweets, but I definitely feel like a prisoner if I don't have discipline with the sweets, I start to get sick. So discipline is freedom, choosing what you really want to have versus what you feel like having. What you feel sometimes has nothing to do with who you want to be.

And so I love that. Remind me what your exact question was about that, though. My ADHD is literally kicking in. Oh, no, it's fine. I mean, I think I my my ADHD asked the questions in 100 million ways. Yeah, I guess. How does discipline apply to waiting for the most elegant idea? Like, how does that how did those two things intertwine if they do?

Like how does discipline intertwine with getting your next step? Yeah. Yeah. I think that there's a discipline in just setting aside time and space in many different ways, right? Like if you don't know what your next step is, sometimes your discipline is just being really committed to what can you do to pay your bills right now? Like that bare minimum. And then what can you do to open up the spaciousness so that you can hear the next idea that wants to come in?

And when you're frenetic and when you're panicked and when you're scared, it gets really noisy in there. It gets noisy in the head and it's hard to feel when something feels good because you're kind of shut off. You know, it makes me think of the person that's dating and they really want to meet the one, but their head's down on their phone all the time. They can't even see the person walking past them. And so I think that spaciousness is key. Another piece of discipline is around being experimental. I think everyone...

needs to realize when they're in the in-between that one of the most powerful things you could do is have conversations with people. And it's specifically people who are doing things that maybe they're not exactly what you want to be doing, but they're in the neighborhood of what you want to be doing. Like it feels like a this, not that kind of situation. Like they're doing this. It's not exact. Maybe I want to do something like that.

those are the people to have conversations with because you learn so much and just being able to like have a cup of coffee with somebody or a cup of tea if you're not loving caffeine like me, you know, and maybe setting a quota of like, I want to have two or three conversations every week with people who are different than me. And the intention is for me to learn about my career or ask questions that help me get clarity on my next step. So yeah, I would say that's

That's something that I would do is just whenever I feel like my career has a plateau, I always know, oh, it's time for me to have more conversations because there's nothing more clarifying than conversations with the right people.

Oh, that's so good. And I feel like the other thing where discipline intertwines here is like, it's easy to have discipline. This is something I learned about myself recently, like this year that an advisor of mine pointed out. It's very easy for me to be disciplined in certain things. There's this certain ab workout that I do every single day. I never miss it. And I don't

really, I like having, it's kind of like, I think it's like a Didion quote about writing. I don't like writing. I like having written, which I relate to and same with this. I don't necessarily like doing it, but I like having it done. And I wrote this zine that I made myself. I didn't have a deadline, but I made a party and it got done because I had this outside accountability. I feel like it's very good.

easy to be disciplined when you are working towards a specific result. I think this is the thinking behind manifestation where it's so important to have clarity and a destination and a clear direction because then you just start and you can always reroute, but you're able to

continue where I've noticed for me when I'm waiting for the most elegant idea, discipline is a little bit trickier because discipline means solitude. It's more creative. It's more...

Yeah.

how, and you might know, drifting. Like, instead of making a decision, you're drifting, where you're just, and drifting might be really fun. Like, she says that she didn't know, she was too afraid to be a writer, so she became a lawyer, and

She knew that she was drifting, but drifting led her to meet her husband and work for doing having a nice time, you know, so I think it's kind of part of it, but it's important to still not get caught in a rushing problem or something.

Yeah. Being able to still have discipline without a clear direction or giving yourself more parameters around what a clear direction means for you. That's kind of all over the place. But with that, what do you do when you're in an era where you feel like you need more discipline? I think a lot of that has to do not just with yourself, but the people you're around. And it's, there's a lot of podcasts and content creators out there respectfully saying that you need to be more disciplined.

You need to let go of people or change your surroundings. I think old friends are gold. And if there are people in your life that you love, sometimes they just need to be reassigned for a certain season that you're in and you need to take care of yourself and your dreams. And I think one of the biggest challenges is if you're in a hard spot, you're in an in-between spot and you want to skyrocket out of it. The most important thing to do is surround yourself with people who aren't in that spot. And this can still be your peers, right? Because we all have seasons like

I built a really successful e-learning platform. And then I took those years in New York and fully stepped back. And there were some voices in my head telling me like, why am I with these people? I'm wasting their time. They're like these successful business people playing really big and I'm playing really small, but they didn't see me like that at all. So I think just really carefully curating who you're around.

Yeah, you are the five people you spend the most time with. And yeah, that's really interesting that you said that part about you were like, why do they want to spend time with me? That's tricky. I've been there too, where there have been eras of my life where I feel like I've had people really wanting to be around me or really wanting to spend time with me. And that's almost felt overwhelming, like they want something from me. And then I've had eras where

It's kind of like that quote in Almost Famous where Philip Seymour Hoffman's character says, you can tell your real friends by who sticks around when you're uncool. And I never really understood that. But now I'm like, oh, I get it. I understand how...

There's longevity to friendship and relationships, and I think there's an importance to that. And nobody wants to be surrounded by all people at the same level as them. I think people want to help and can get different things from different people regardless of what stage they're in their career. But I do feel like sometimes I've felt very similar where I am like...

Do I deserve to be here? What do I have to offer? And that self-confidence or lack thereof can be a hindrance to connection or who you are able to spend time

time with. And sometimes I felt uncomfortable and perhaps it is uncomfortable to be around people that you admire sometimes if you are comparing and maybe it's like learning to remove that comparison at least for a bit so you can just soak it in. I don't know. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think comparisonitis is one of the most challenging things we can deal with. And when we're not in a place that we feel good or we feel vulnerable because we're not sure who we want to be next, it's

It's really important that we are around people that feel like they can meet us. So yeah, everything you're sharing makes total sense to me. I think it's a natural feeling. And I think if you're committed to finding your people and maybe you haven't found them yet, it's like really asking yourself, how do you want these people to feel? What do you want them to be up to? It's not about money or numbers, right? It's just about vision, dreams, and pursuit, right?

And how can you choose to be around those people? And if you don't have friendships with those people or that feels intimidating, can you join a networking group or put yourself in an uncomfortable position to at least stretch yourself into the discipline that it takes to be around the people that you want to be around so that you can be met in that way? I mean, there's nothing that has helped my career more than the conversations with people who can really meet me. Yeah. And I think I have such incredible people

around me in so many different disciplines. And I have, I always joke like the one thing that's going like excellent is friendship. But sometimes I feel like all I'm doing is friend. But there's so much that comes from that, not from opportunities or being opportunistic about it, but just by absorbing what's around and the people around. And I do feel like sometimes, like you said, when I'm in a shaky place,

Exactly. 100%. Yeah.

There are so many people who have done so many things in their career. And if you really ask them, what's the thing you've done that you're the most proud of, that you're the most fulfilled by, there's pretty much 100% chance they've had to have conversations and go places they don't want to go to get to where they want to be.

And I think that self-development is such a powerful space to be in. And I spent 15 years in it. But if there's anything I've learned, there's a lot of extreme and weird thinking in the self-help arena. Like, for example, people say like how you do one thing is how you do everything. I'm like, that's not freaking true at all. Like how I show up for my family and my friends is impeccable, but that's not really how I show up with my diet. You know, it's just not the same priority. Priorities matter.

And you have every right to choose your priorities, you know?

And where you want to be impeccable. Or they'll, you know, you hear in self-development, it's either a hell yes or it's a no. And it's like, well, no, sometimes things are a maybe. And that's just extreme thinking. And I also think what you're saying here of like, it can be really uncomfortable, but maybe that's what discipline is. That's exactly right. And I think self-love sometimes has been skewed to be like taking care of yourself. And there's a fine line between taking care of yourself and coddling yourself. There's a fine line between

self-care, meaning that you have your bubble bath and have a day with your friends versus make a spreadsheet of your debts and fix your finances. Do you know what I mean? There's so much in what you don't want to do. And even for me having a startup right now, Wise Whisper, you know, we have really been scaling our offerings like

We started off just writing signature talks, 10 to 20 minute talks and helping clients with that. And then we evolved into helping people get booked on stages. And then we evolved into ghostwriting books for people. These things are crucial. And it's so important that we're able to grow, but...

Every single time it's a stretch on me. It's hard on me. It's new people. It's new vendors. It's new relationships that I need to form. It's a new type of customer I need to understand. And there are so many times I'm like, I'm just going to have one offer and not move. But that's not really building the agency I want to build.

Yeah, I think discipline often is uncomfortable and doing things you don't want to do and kicking the can down the road just prolongs that. And another thing that's uncomfortable is not having the things you want and you need the discipline to get there. So, you know, it's a little lesser of two evils. And I think clarity is so much of it. And perhaps

and perhaps prioritizing or choosing. Yeah, like decision one at a timeness and where we only perhaps have so much discipline or willpower and choosing where we're going to apply it. Yeah, I'm sitting with a lot of that stuff. And I think that's what I was trying to say earlier, where there are a few things that I'm just in a really good habit of discipline with, where it's like, do that, get it done. It is what it is. And then, yeah,

Other things I am not doing consistently. It's trickier to have discipline when it's not a habit. So then it's making it a habit until it's still uncomfortable. And then there are other things that are kind of big, uncomfortable things that don't have to be a habit.

For instance, having an uncomfortable conversation or directness. I have a couple people, this is not even like work related, but I'm working on my ability to be indirect is so deeply ingrained and ineffective that it's something that I'm really having to examine. And it's so uncomfortable. Yeah, I bet. Yeah.

And yeah, and I think it takes some confidence to be direct. And it's just self-awareness, I guess, is the first step. But once you have the self-awareness, then it's like sitting in the discomfort until you change it, you know? I love what you're saying. It's kind of meta. It's like having discipline with your discipline. And I think it's a real thing. It's like realizing how much energy you have. We don't have unlimited energy, right? Like there's a certain point where we pull on our energy so much we die. Do you know what I mean? It's literally...

It's we have limits. We can do things to create more energy. But I think a very smart, disciplined person is somebody who realizes that their discipline has limits. So I think you're on to a very valuable thought with that. Yeah. And it's one of those things with time and age that you get to know yourself better. And I've just had to get to know that if I don't get that done now, I'm not going to get it done after I go to that dinner.

you know, and either being okay with that and letting it slide or letting it needle at me while I go or just getting it done and being being laid or whatever. And and I think these things change, obviously, to their cyclical and seasons. And anyway, what about you? What are you working on lately? Or what's your next growth edge? Or what's been something that's come up for you that you're

wanting to either double down on or shift. That's so funny that you asked me that because I really am in the thick of so much discipline being needed in everything I'm doing in my career right now. Wise Whisper is scaling and that requires paid advertising.

And I have such a frenemy relationship with paid ads. It's such a fine line between feeling like I'm a soulful creative and feeling like I'm a monkey dancing around on a video, you know? And trying to stay in my soul while also, I don't know, putting work out there that I know gets people's attention in the way that an ad needs to. So it's like making sure I maintain myself in the business world, right? Yeah.

And a lot of that also has to do with managing my team. And I've never liked managing a team. It's just not my thing. And what I mean by that is I'm such a solo person as a writer, as a thinker, put me in a coffee shop by myself with a laptop every day. And I'm so excited. But again, when it comes back to discipline, I really want this business to be what I want it to be.

And that requires a pretty large amount of discipline. And so, yeah, I'm leaning into my edges with my ads specifically right now. When you find something that you realize like that, is there anything you do when you make not a mistake, but when you're like, oh, there it is again, you know, and you catch yourself

How do you have self-compassion or realize that you might be three steps forward, one back, but you're still ahead? How are you kind to yourself in those moments? Yeah, I've had to be really kind to myself because my agency right now has, we have a pretty large amount of clients that are actively working on different talks with us, maybe 60 of them.

And to me, that's large. Like I used to have a coaching practice with eight clients a month and total ever, you know, so it's a lot of energies and writing is subjective, right? So I truly think we have world-class talent, writers from TV shows I grew up watching like Lizzie McGuire or shows I watch now like New Girl or Succession. We have all those writers helping write talks at our company. We have people from Apple who, you know, spent 13 years there and wrote speeches for Steve Jobs executives. Like it's,

an incredible caliber of people, but it's also I'm in charge, right? So if a client subjectively looks at something and they don't like it, it is so hard for me, especially if I think the work is incredible, because at the end of the day, it's the client's talk, right? And

You want them to love it. And so that's only up-leveled me where I've realized, okay, five, I'm an agency, 5% of clients are either going to be difficult or they're just not going to like it because that's just normal. So what do I do about those five so that I could surprise and delight them and not subconsciously vilify them like, oh, this person, and instead see it as an opportunity to really up my game and up what I'm offering. And so that's been something I'm toying with.

You know, just today we got a client booked for a really large keynote event and the people are really a pain. And he just revealed it to me saying that they've been really difficult to work with. Obviously, that doesn't reflect on us, right? Like we're not in charge once we get you booked for a huge keynote. How that team is, right? But...

But it's even up leveling me by saying, well, how do we prevent pitching clients to keynote, to be a keynote speaker for events like that? It's just bringing up critical thinking, curiosity, and not closing my heart when something's frustrating. And yeah, I mean, as we scale the business, we're inviting more energy, which means a lot of happy customers. I expect around 90 to 95% of customers to walk out impressed.

And then that 5% gets bigger when you look at having 500 customers, right? And that 5%, I don't even know what that math is, like 25 people, they're going to feel louder than all 475 happy people, you know? And how do I keep my joy in

When I'm the commander in chief on this dashboard, making sure that this thing works. So I've done a lot of work with my therapist every week. I really don't miss a week because I know I need it. Like I need the help. Like I don't want to hold all this alone.

And I've also learned that no matter where you are in business, if you can afford to put someone as a point of contact for customers and clients, it just elevates your game in such a powerful way. It puts a line between you and your customers and you're welcome to cross that line, but at least giving you a choice of do you want to be the person in charge of this question or do you want somebody else to be the one answering it? So not having people pleasing shame about delegating. Yeah.

That's so true. And I think it, yeah, it offers that buffer and I've had that. And when I have not, and I was just listening, a friend of mine was talking about how she has scaled her business hugely now and it has a giant team and there are probably many, many layers to her. But she was saying like when she first started, she made up a fake email and

And made up that layer, basically, like of an assistant because she was really not as good at boundaries and saying no and being authentic in that way. And I think whether you're applying this to business or to –

I honestly, I often feel like just managing my texts is sometimes feels like calendar Tetris. And it did last week for some reason. I just who I was hanging out with socially and who I was doing the hike with and the trips coming up or whatever.

Obviously, you're not going to make up a fake assistant to handle your personal life in that way. But it does force you to be very clear on what you want to say yes to and no to. And sometimes that, for me, takes a while to know. And then having that direct comes back to direct communication and discipline. You know, I think it all really...

really connects here. But anyway, gosh, this is so illuminating. I've learned so much from you already and I'm so excited

It's been so cool to see you morph into a new version of your work and life. And I remember, I think you were just about to move to New York, which was interesting because I had just moved from New York to here. And now we're both here, which is very exciting. But yeah, I'm stoked. I'm stoked to finally get to hang with you in person. And I'm really grateful that we got to talk about everything we did. What else do you...

in you that you want to share? Is there anything else that you wish that I would have asked that you never get to talk about? Is there anything that you're curious about right now or that you're just wanting to, yeah, leave people with, I guess? I mean, since your last question was just about leading into my edges, which navigating unhappy customers is such a freaking edge, it almost makes me not want to scale my business, right? But I don't want to play small because of that fear. Yeah.

So I guess that's my message for anybody is like the fear is going to be there. And we know that. And there are so many times that pursuing what you really want to pursue, whatever that is, or maybe you're in that luminal space and you're not sure what your next thing is yet.

It's really hard. It's really hard. And there will be days that you just want to quit, that you're just like, let me close this out and let me play really small. It's so safe. It's so calm. It's so easy. And if you're listening right now and you're feeling a little of those feelings, but you're really doing something you want to be doing, I just hope this conversation is a reminder to keep going because...

When you keep going, you eventually get met with success. And the people who keep trying and keep committing to figuring it out, they figure it out. And a lot of the times that means leaning into things you don't want to do, but for the sake of something you really want to experience in the end. So that's my message.

That was so good. I love that. And I agree. That was felt like the end of a beautiful TED talk. I and I'm ruining it by continuing to just like fade out to music now. But I love that. And I but I have something that it relates to that I want to say. But have you read this book, The Courage to be Disliked?

No, but it sounds great. Yeah. I mean, it's, to be honest, it's kind of, it is, but it's also one of those books that you can sort of get everything you need from the title, you know, like, which is good for the title, I guess. But anyway, I was reading it last night and I,

Essentially, I feel like to feed off of what you're saying, the concept of in marketing and in life, I guess, and definitely in coming up with an idea for a TED Talk of you can't be everything to everybody and being your most specific self, I think...

The reason why people don't do that, I guess, or the reason why people don't scale or the reason why people aren't finding their authenticity. And I'm by people, I mean myself. I mean, you know, we, I think we've all been there. It's that fear. It's that fear of being disliked. It's the fear of getting rejected and, you know,

So really, that's the main thing to apply my discipline towards. I'll speak for myself is how am I going to exist if this doesn't go well? And what is my game plan there? Because I think that allows and that's for you, like coming to therapy every week and forcing yourself to push through that. And with gentleness, I think is really important.

really impactful. And anyway, so thank you so much for sharing all of that. Yeah. And just on a final note, it was just mental health awareness month or week. And I was thinking a lot about mental health because it's focused on people who have mental health challenges, but there's not enough communication out there about people who are receiving that have worked hard on their mental health. And they aren't necessarily somebody that they would consider to have a very active struggle. Like obviously

We all do our basic upkeep and we have basic challenges, but there's not enough communication out there about people who have to be at the forefront of other people who are facing big mental health issues. And what I mean by that is if you have a really unwell mother, that really affects you, right? And you could work so hard to be well.

Oh my God, yeah.

And I'm at the hands of that as a business owner and I need to have compassion for them, but also protect myself, right? So I hope I send everybody some encouragement to just do that. And thanks for the conversation, Katie. That's such a good point. And that's so true. And it's, you know, business or not, it's unavoidable of who we bump into and everything that you've been through with your family. I think that, and we've all been through in our own ways with different families. We all have to bump into people at different levels of

and bumping into our healing. I think Al-Anon's a good tool for that, but they're so, you're right. That was really good. That's such a great point that I hadn't considered in that way. And anyway, thank you again so, so much for coming and taking all the time and everything that you shared. As you know, this is called Let It Out. So will you let out a deep breath with me? Yes. Okay, inhale. Let it out. That was so good.

Feels good. We needed that. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. All right. That was my conversation with Ashley Stahl. Follow her everywhere. Go write your talk. I want to hear it. And like I said, she's a podcast and I am a guest. So I don't know when that will be out or when you're listening to this, but I'll make sure it's linked in the show notes and links.

Let us know if you listened. Send us a message. I'm so grateful that you're here. And if you need anything else, let me know. I'm around and really excited for 2025. I just am stoked to keep doing this podcast, to keep growing the show, to go into a new version of it and...

I can't wait to talk to you more in the new year. The holiday workshops are still available. The remix your resolutions, changing your relationship to goal setting. It's one of my favorite things I've ever made. So the link to sign up for that is in the show notes as well. And sign up for my newsletter if you want these episodes to come to your inbox with the show notes and essays from me and lists from me, let it out lists.

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