The language of children’s storytelling, with Doug Fraser
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I'm Mignon Fogarty. Welcome to the Thursday show where we talk to people doing interesting things with language. Today, we're going to talk about the child storytelling voice with Doug Frazier, host and creator of the Cozy Critters podcast. Doug is a lifelong language lover and is producing this fabulous show that's received all sorts of accolades from everyone from parents to sleep researchers. Doug, thank you so much for joining us.

Doug Frazier, better known as Dougie Pickles. Welcome to the Grammar Girl podcast. Thanks so much for having me. It's good to see you. Yeah, it's great to see you too. You know, and Doug, I was thinking about the language and, you know, one of the first things kids hear when they're listening to the show is that, you know, you are Dougie Pickles. And that pickles is just a funny word, sort of according to the rules of comedy. Is that why you chose that name?

Yeah, you know, the name started out that way where I wanted something a little silly. And for me, when food is a part of a name, there's always something funny about it. And once I came up with Dougie Pickles, I was like, I wonder if that's just came to my head or if there's something there. And then I realized that I think it may be an old memory from Rugrats, which...

which is an old cartoon. And one of the lead characters was Tommy Pickles. Oh, I never watched that show. So I did not know that. Yeah. As a nineties kid, it was on TV quite a lot in our house. Huh?

Well, you know, there's something to be said, you know, in fiction, they talk about resonance, which is calling back to things that people used to love or have fond memories of. So I guess you've got some resonance going there. Absolutely. Yeah. I didn't know that was a word for that. So I'm going to keep that in my pocket. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, just also popped into the top of my head is that kids don't have resonance, do they? Or do they? Are you putting things in the show to call back?

callback fond memories of kids? Are they too young to have fond memories that you can take advantage of that way in storytelling? It's kind of tricky, right? Because the age range of the show, our youngest reader was about just before two years old. And then our oldest listener, I think that I've gotten data for is about 12. And so, you know, at 12, you've got plenty of memories to kind of look back on and you get, you can wax nostalgia for your kindergarten years or whatever it is.

But yeah, most of the kids, I don't think necessarily have that bank of memories to kind of pull from. But what I do in the show is I tap into the parents' memories of when they were kids. And the way that I like to think about the show is...

Originally, the idea was I wanted Blue Planet meets The Magic School Bus in terms of language, in terms of feeling. And as it started evolving, I was like, I also want a bit of Bluey in there as well. And have you ever seen Bluey before? No. Oh, you're missing out. It's a great show. The reason I got into it is there was these viral clips of parents crying when they saw a particular episode of Bluey. And I was like, man, I got to see what's going on here. And I watched the episode they were talking about and I cried too. And it was all about growing up.

And it's, if I remember correctly, one of the characters kept wanting to sleep in their parents' bedroom and eventually she had to go to her own bedroom. And it's just like, this is just a big part of growing up. These things you used to do, you no longer do. And so maybe for kids...

Even younger kids, they can think back to those changes they've had in their lives and that could be their resonance. Yeah, that's a really good point, though, that it's for the parents as well, because they're ideally, usually, probably they're listening with their kids to the podcast while they go to sleep.

Yeah, co-listening is a major part of the show. And based off of feedback, I think it's about, for every download, there's about 2.5 listeners. So yeah, there's always a parent in there, sometimes two parents and sometimes multiple kids. Yeah. Well, I want to play a quick clip of the podcast. So before we talk about the storytelling voice, people who may not know, hear what it is. So here's a quick clip. Tonight, we're going on a mini adventure.

Do you hear that? It's the sound of the sea breeze brushing over sand dunes and salt marshes.

So that's the storytelling voice. And I have to say it reminded me of, you know, I don't have kids, so I don't watch a lot of kids TV, but it reminded me of Will Ferrell in Elf talking about and pass the candy cane forest, you know, and maybe a little bit of Willy Wonka, the original Willy Wonka, Gene Wilder. Oh, I love that.

His voice, those were the two things that called to mind for me. And so as you were putting that voice together, that persona for Dougie Pickles, what were the primary language levers that you were pulling on? Well, it's evolved.

And where it started is I wanted to address the listeners as a whole. So it's like a group. But then I, as I listened to the show, because this is something that I like to do with the shows that I have is listen to an episode I haven't touched in months. And then it becomes new to me. And I almost become a listener myself. And I was listening to an episode where it was, there's an introduction at the beginning where I say, hey, howdy, and hippopotamus high fives my sleepy friend.

It used to be Sleepy Friends. And I was like, it's so much more personal when I address the listener directly. So as part of that, it became the use of the second person. So the use of you. And again, listening back, it really felt like the second person is almost like this hand on your shoulder. It's immediate, it's intimate, and it's comforting. So rather than telling a story to...

a group of people, you're telling it to this one particular child who's listening. Even if there's three people in the room, they still feel like the story is being directed to them. And

especially when you're winding down and, you know, it's kind of a vulnerable state. The second person almost feels like a bit of a safe bubble. You're warm. It's kind of safe and you're, you're ready for sleep. And every aspect of the show, if at any moment, it feels like things are getting too excitable or there's some shift, it takes you out of that calming down, getting into the mode and having used meditation apps, uh,

I know that how important that is because I've been taken out of a meditation because of a word choice or because of how something was said. So, you know,

Again, this whole second person thing kind of gives me a way to gently guide emotions without lecturing, you know, like saying you might feel a little nervous sometimes and that's okay. Instead of making it abstract, like, you know, kids may feel this way. It's like, no, it's you who may feel this way sometimes. And there's always the bluey aspect of the show. There is a parallel aspect.

between the animal we're learning about and some interesting fact and the kid's life. And that's where I've had some parents message me who said they've cried during an episode. And for me, that tears are like, it's the heart clapping because you've related to them in some way that has made them feel emotional to the point where tears come out and

You know, the first episode that I tried this with was the baby sea turtles episode. And the whole idea is that this little baby turtle is going out in the water and one day it's going to come back to the same spot it was born and have children and it's going to start all over again.

And so the idea was that, you know, you may be a baby sea turtle now, but so were your grownups. And now look where they are. They're the big sea turtles. And then one day you'll be a big sea turtle. And I'm not spelling this out very well, but it was really nice. It was really nice to look at.

But yeah, it just goes back to that, the use of the second person and feels much more one-on-one and reassuring and direct. Yeah. I imagine, you know, from having listened to it, I'm sure it's scripted, right? Like you're writing a script for what you're doing and how much revision are you doing? Like how much are you getting into the exact script?

word choice and the rhythm and all that. And actually, do you read it out loud before, you know, as part of the editing process? Yes, absolutely. You kind of have to in any sort of podcast or, you know, if you're reading a script and you're going to be acting in a movie, you've got to read that out aloud, right? To hear it, to see what it sounds like, where am I putting the emphasis? And so,

Coming from a writing background where a lot of the writing is read, so it's, I'm in advertising. And so, you know, we're writing billboards, emails, all this other stuff. But when it comes to the radio scripts, that taught me a big lesson about reading that aloud, understanding the timing, the cadence, and the emotion that you want the person to feel by the time they're done. And so I take all those lessons into the podcasting world and read the script aloud, and I'm

And I'm approaching, by the time this comes out, it'll probably be almost episode 100. So I've had a lot of practice doing this. And the most challenging part of the editing process, I think, is sentence length.

And because what happens, and you may have experienced this before too, is sometimes the sentence is too long and you're out of wind. You're like, I don't know where to break. Okay, we have to restructure this. We need to chop a bit here. And a lot of times what I found the issue is, is you haven't gotten to the point quick enough in that sentence. And so it's like, okay, maybe...

Maybe I was being a little too verbose and I wanted to have some flowery language to build this thing up and do this thing. And it winds up getting you off track to the point where the, even the listener can be like, where are we going? So, yeah. And, you know, I think that's an important lesson too, is about the musicality of your writing in the paragraph structure and how

Changing sentence length as you're going throughout a paragraph gives it sort of a sing-songy feel rather than, because I've written before in my early days where a lot of sentences had similar structure and similar length. And it just felt like a drum that was just tap, tap, tap. And that becomes repetitive and boring after a while as a reader. Especially when you're saying that stuff aloud, it becomes that much more apparent. Yeah.

Yeah, that's one of the frequent changes I make when I have a new writer come on board who isn't used to writing for audio before is I often, I do two things. I shorten the sentences typically and I take out parentheticals because the asides, they're distracting, they don't make sense in audio, even though, you know, we're all used to putting them in in writing. Right.

Well, I want to take a, yeah, I want to take a quick ad break. And when we come back, I want to talk about cozy critters, cozy comfort, the alliteration and how that's working for you, for the kids. And we'll talk about, you know, when kids grow out of this appreciation for that storytelling voice. We'll be right back.

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And we're back with Doug Frazier of the Cozy Critters Kids Sleeping Podcast. Doug, so it's, you know, it's Cozy Critters. And, you know, I noticed there's a lot of alliteration in the podcast. I'm sure that's intentional. What's your reasoning for putting in so much alliteration? Alliteration just feels good, doesn't it? It's like a warm blanket for the brain. It's rhythmic. It's soothing. It's sort of gently musical in the way that

varying sentence structure can be as well. You know, like phrases like wobbly waddling walrus or snug in a snowy snarl of seal pups. I had to read that. That's a tough one. They're fun to say and they stick.

And then it's a funny thing that happens when you use alliteration, but you slow it down. So in the show, my pace is very slow. And then it starts to get slower at the end of some sentences. And then I'll take a break in between. And what happens is that alliteration starts to feel almost like a little song, a quiet little rhythm. In some ways, it can feel...

especially if it's S sounds or plosives, it can feel like tapping rain. And so when you combine that with the background music that happens during the episodes, it just feels like it almost...

Again, that warm blanket, I think, is a good metaphor for this. But it also helps create vivid mental imagery. And it's sort of in a similar way that music is a shortcut to emotion. Alliteration, I think, is a shortcut to sensation. And it also helps, again, kind of slow the pace down a little bit, which is good for bedtime. Yeah.

And I don't try to use it too, too often because like anything else, it can outstay its welcome. But I try to use it strategically to add things like texture, playfulness, sometimes just a little poetic softness at the right moment goes a long way. Mm-hmm.

And I also noticed that the show is in present tense. Is that something that's known to be good for storytelling for kids in particular too? Yeah. A big part of the show is about being present and being in the moment. And so if I use past tense about a story that, you know, this sloth did this thing back in the day and we're going to tell you about it, there's a distance difference.

And I think the present tense collapses that time between those things and allows us to stay present in the moment because what we're hearing happening is happening right now. And I think it's sort of similar to live sports.

And when you're watching live sports happens, you're leaning in because this is happening right now. Whereas if you're watching a live sports event that already happened, that desire to be there in every moment kind of dissipates a little bit. So I think that immediacy of the present tense is...

especially helpful for bedtime where the goal is to quiet those racing thoughts and keep that child grounded in the here and the now. So when I say, you know, we float above the rainforest and, oh, look down there, there's this frog, there's this thing, it feels like it's happening in real time. So that barrier that can be created with past tense is broken down with present tense because we're here and we're now and we're

I think another point to that is we're going on an adventure, right? We're exploring. We're going to a place that is not their bedroom. We're going to South America. We're going to Africa. We're going to all these places around the world that they've likely never been. And so to say that we're doing that right now,

really heightens that immediacy of the moment. But also for sleepy kids, especially I think the present tense has that immersion without being demanding. It sort of invites them and lets them drift from the here and now. And I noticed that you ask a very gentle question near the end. It's like, are you ready to go back home at the end of the story about the animals? And I thought that it's engaging, but not too engaging. Yeah, I have, I think three points throughout the show that,

where I directly ask the kids a question and it's, you know, are we ready to go? Are we ready to head home? And then there's a third one that tends to be something different. It may just happen at any point, but sometimes, you know, I'll dress them directly as my sleepy friend. And

The way that I do that at the beginning of the show, because I know they're still awake, is a little bit different from how I do it at the end of the show when I'm addressing them to ask if they're ready to go home. So there's this idea of we're slowing down by the end of the show. And sometimes I'll turn the volume down even a little bit during that part. So if they are asleep, they're not jolted awake because I'm asking something of them.

Right. You know, and you said you think your oldest listener that you've heard from is 12. And that was one thing I was wondering as I was listening to it. It's like at what age...

does that voice start not working anymore for the audience? Like when do kids age out of liking that very children's storytelling voice? And then do you know, is there a tween voice? Is there a teen voice that's different? You know, I know as adults, we love a good, we still love a good audio book narrator. Yeah. So to answer your second question first, I definitely think there's a voice for tweens. And I think it can be the same

It's just we're changing the vocabulary we use. So we're having more adult vocabulary, but the content of the episode is more adult as well. So, for example, in Cozy Critters, there's often talk of the mother and their child, their little baby, you know, the mama kangaroo and her Joey. And that's because kids of that age have such a close connection with their parents. And they want to know that, hey, this is what happens –

in the wild and, you know, there's this great connection with some animals. Obviously not all animals have that connection and they can relate that to their parents. So if I were to do a tween version of the show, I would probably have more details about what the animals eat. Cause what happens in, in the kids version of the show of cozy critters is sometimes they eat things and that, that can create a pretty, uh,

nasty image in their head when they're trying to go to bed. Right. And so that sort of content, there's an agreement I have with the listener that anytime you come in here, it's not just going to be a safe space, but it's going to be a space where the content is, we don't talk about violence. We don't talk about anything that could disrupt your sleep or create negative imagery in your head.

Well, I have to say, when I was listening to your show to prepare, you know, I'm not a child, but I did find I was starting to feel sleepy as I was listening. It was so comforting. And it was just enough interesting information about the capybaras, you know, to...

Just keep me interested, but also soothe me along toward the end. It was great. Thank you. Yeah. So Doug Frazier, better known as Dougie Pickles, where can people find you and your show? You can find everything that you need at CozyCrittersPodcast.com. I also am starting to create social videos for Cozy Critters.

And so you can find us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. And the handle across all of those is just Cozy Critters Podcast. Nice. Thanks so much for being here. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. And now for the Grammarpalusians, we have a bonus episode. Thank you so much for your support. We're going to get Doug's book recommendations to add to your to-be-read pile. For everyone else, that's all. Thanks for listening.

Sitting through a lecture won't sharpen the people skills required to lead a company. That's why at UVA Darden, the moment you set foot on grounds, you're immersed in a dialogue-driven environment that simulates real-world business scenarios and calls for real leadership action. Our top-ranked faculty design a curriculum that empowers you to lead your peers, manage teams, and drive measurable results. Ranked the number one public business school in the country, Darden stands apart not just for what we teach, but how.

UVA Darden. Not business school as usual.

Sometimes winds of change can wreak havoc on your home. Imagine that tall tree in your yard getting blown over during a storm and, yikes, landing right on your roof. That's why it's wise to have homeowners insurance that'll be there for you when such curveballs strike. Your local State Farm agent can help you file a claim by phone, in person, online, or through our mobile app. Reach out however best works for you. They're ready to help. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.