Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Hey everybody, this is Tina again with Good Nurse, Bad Nurse. Welcome back to another episode of this podcast where we use stories from the headlines to talk about people in healthcare who normally we talk about people in healthcare who kind of do bad things and then good things. For this episode, the bad nurse story, where actually the victim is the person who was in healthcare.
But I really wanted to talk about this story because it goes way back. This is a terrible, devastating story. In fact, got to have some trigger warnings about this. It definitely deals with SA. So just so you know, it was a cold case that was cold for decades. And it wasn't until just recently, very recently, that
through DNA evidence that they were able to capture the person that committed this crime. So I just, I love bringing awareness about things like this. And then for the Goodner story, we have a really nice heartwarming story about a student. So, but before we get into our stories, I want to introduce my co-host for this week. You guys are familiar with Roger. Roger, welcome back.
Thanks, Tina. It's great to be back. It's been far too long. I think I look back and it was like June of last year. This is the last time we did an episode. I can't even believe it's been that long. It feels like it wasn't that long ago. But then whenever we kind of like go back and forth on social media, you know, like direct messaging and stuff. And I'm like, dang, I have not talked to him forever. We need to catch up. Thank you for coming back. Absolutely. So.
So I guess we can get started with this story. I told you guys at the beginning, I kind of warned you there. It is not, it's not a pretty story at all. It's, this is unfortunately not at all a rare occurrence. Apparently this is something you can find. These stories like this are a dime a dozen on the internet. You can find,
of women just out there living their lives, trying to just be a good person and take care of themselves, take care of their families and men coming along and just like
deciding, no, I think I need you to fulfill my needs and then obliterate you from the face of the earth. And that's one of those stories. So I just kind of wanting to kind of warn you up front, I'm not always in the right headspace to be able to deal with a story like this. This happens to be one time that I can. And so we're going to talk about it today.
but it's, it's pretty brutal, Roger. Yeah, it is. There is some positive notes in it as, as tragic as it is, you know, for what it's worth, hopefully it did bring closure to, uh, the family, um, without, you know, the, the daughter growing up without her mom, but, um,
you know, at least there were some closure that came to this after all these years. Exactly. That's really why I wanted to talk about this. So in 1986, the small community of Chisholm, Minnesota was shaken by the tragic death of Nancy Daugherty.
A 38-year-old mother of two, her case remained unsolved for over three decades until advancements in DNA technology led to the arrest and conviction of Michael Allen Carbo Jr.,
This report delves into Nancy's life, the circumstances of her untimely death, the legal journey that followed, and the reasons behind the overturning of the initial conviction. All of which, I might add, was, I am sure, extremely traumatizing to the family having to go through all of this.
Nancy Daugherty was a dedicated mother and a compassionate member of the Chisholm community. She worked as an emergency medical technician and at a local nursing home, showcasing her commitment to helping others. Nancy aspired to further her education by becoming a paramedic.
in the Twin Cities, reflecting her passion for medical service and care, which I know that's near and dear to your heart, Roger. Yeah. It sounds like that she was, you know, she's 38. She's really young. And, um,
I don't know how old, I don't remember how old her daughter was. She just had one daughter, correct? One child? Yeah, I think so. How old that she was. You wonder if she's just kind of at a crossroads. I think she was recently divorced. So I think she was just looking at a mechanism to be able to provide as that single parent and saw that opportunity.
But becoming a paramedic may be the best way to be able to do that. You know, this is 1986. It is. I remember what I was doing in 1986. I was a brand new paramedic. So that in itself brings back a lot of memories. But, you know, she's 38 in 1986. And it just reads like she was at a kind of at a crossroads trying to do the best thing for her, her family and to build a career.
Yeah, her daughter, Gina Haggard, fondly recalled a family trip to Alaska where Nancy's nurturing nature was evident. During the journey, Nancy stopped to assist accident victims providing aid until they were airlifted to a hospital. This act exemplified her selflessness and dedication to others. You know, we talk about that a lot on this podcast. You and I have talked specifically about
people who stop, you know, to help people during, you know, some sort of trauma event and how dangerous that can be. And she was one of those selfless people that put other people first. She's in her element. Yeah. Well,
Well, on July 16th, 1986, concerned friends requested a welfare check at Nancy's residence after she failed to appear for a planned activity. Upon arrival, police discovered that she had been sexually assaulted and strangled. Evidence indicated a violent struggle, suggesting Nancy fought valiantly against her attacker. Despite extensive efforts by law enforcement,
The investigation faced significant challenges. The technology of the time limited forensic analysis. This was 1986, remember, and leads were scarce. Over the years, though, the case remained unsolved, leaving Nancy's family and the community without closure.
I cannot imagine how it's already just so unimaginable, the devastation that you would feel losing a family member in such a horrible, traumatic, violent way, ripping her, you know, from her children, from her parents, from all her friends, family. But then,
To not be able to ever find the person that did it and have this ongoing, like the mind that you, you know, how you would be tortured by the knowledge that that person is still out there possibly doing this to someone else. I can't imagine it. I, you know, I mentioned that I remember what I was doing in 1986 through, you
his conviction, which was just very recent. And you think about all that time that has passed for me personally, I just can't imagine
The emotional toll that it takes over that same period of time that you have this lingering thing in your background that is kind of nagging that you never become, you know, have closure. You know, that time passes regardless of what's going on. And it's just very sad to think that that was just a constant thing in the background that they never could figure out and get closure to.
Yeah, well, in 2020, of course, 2020 means it's important for a lot of us. Everybody knows what happened that year. I don't need to remind you. You're right. The Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension or BCA revisited the case utilizing advanced DNA analysis and genetic genealogy.
This innovative approach led investigators to Michael Allen Carbo Jr., who was 18 years old at the time of Nancy's death and resided near her home. Authorities collected a discarded DNA sample from Carbo, which matched the DNA evidence from the crime scene leading to his arrest. When I read this, it wasn't
completely clear, but I wondered if maybe when they were talking about the advanced DNA analysis and genetic genealogy, is this like the 23andMe where they're
looking for family. Yeah. Familial connections. Yeah. I did read a couple of articles and it won. I think one of them did specifically mention the company that they worked for and are worked with. And if you are a true crime podcast junkie, like I am, you hear that name a lot out there. And so the regression of Ben
been able to pull DNA and matching it to family and searching backwards through that. That seems to be what they did in this case. And I also read that he volunteered to give them a sample of DNA in addition to what they already knew. They went to him and asked for DNA. And which makes me wonder,
He realized he did this and he knew what they were collecting the DNA for. Was he wanting to be caught? Was he living with such a guilty conscience at that point that he just was like, I'm really wanting to come clean? I mean, not that he did that. I mean, he's fought the charges and he says that he's innocent still. But, you know, why? I just wonder why he would give you if it's true that he did volunteer to give his DNA when they asked him why you would do that, knowing that.
If you did it or didn't do it, you know, I think any attorney would say, oh, no, you don't give them don't volunteer your DNA, you know, wait for the court order or whatever. There are more of these cases and you would think that where people who are guilty, obviously guilty, agree to cooperate and give their DNA. And I just wonder if it's not somehow in their mind, they think.
That maybe, oh, well, it's been that long ago. Surely they don't really have evidence. I, or I, I don't think I left any evidence, you know, like somehow in their mind, they just. Yeah. Yeah.
So in 2022, Carbo was tried and convicted of first degree murder while committing or attempting to commit criminal sexual conduct. He was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 17 years. First of all, okay. First of all, yeah. And I'm like, if he was convicted of first degree murder while attempting to commit criminal sexual assault, 17 years, 17 years.
WTF. I'm sorry. We don't normally. First of all, he's already had his life. But I'm just like, he's lived his life. And he spends, you know, maybe two thirds of that in, in prison and gets out and still has maybe has, you know, 10, 20 years left to live after that. You know, yeah. When I read that, I was just like,
54. Yeah, this is wrong. This never makes sense. The prison set. And I know that state by state and how the statutes read, but it just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. 17 years for taking a life.
For first degree murder. I mean, we're not talking about manslaughter or second degree or, you know, that was, you know, first degree. I don't understand it. While committing or attempting to commit, you know, sexual assault, what? Yeah. And then there's that. What in the world? How in the world could someone justify that?
And as we talked earlier, I'm just wondering if there's stuff in his background. I mean, it's almost like the FBI needs to be involved and profile him because what has he done for these 28 years that there's no other crime to me? Oh, yeah. Was he just an upstanding citizen? Yeah, you kill somebody at 18. There's got to be some other stuff in his background that...
I just don't see him going to that level and then you're like, okay, I'm a normal human being and I'm going to live my life on the moral high ground. Yeah, whatever it was that caused him to cross that line.
He got away with it. You know what I'm saying? Like in 1986, he did this and he got away with it. You really think those urges just went away and he just decided, oh, okay, well, I'm sorry I did that and now I'm going to be a better person. I would think just the opposite. I would think it would embolden someone to think, I got away with that. I could probably get away with it again. And there is no telling.
Over the past several decades, what in the world this man has done in the meantime? Because he was committing criminal sexual conduct when they arrested him for this. So in that 28 years, nothing else had ever happened. It just doesn't add up to me. The other thing I found interesting was at the scene,
They found the fingernail, that there were skin cells up under her fingernails. And I think there was semen left. And then outside, apparently he had vomited. Did you read that? No. So there was one article that kind of went in depth about what evidence that they had. And one of the
things that they were comparing DNA to was vomit that they found in the yard. And so that made me wonder, okay, this sounds like it was his first time. And it was, he got so emotionally distraught over doing this that he went outside and threw up. Yeah, that's what it sounds like. But then afterwards, it's like, well, they didn't catch me. So, you know, like you said, it just emboldened him.
It was odd. And then they had this other guy that was kind of dating. They were dating at the time. And I think there was some
They were looking at him at one time as possibly having something to do with this. And I think that's what the defense, his defense had said was that, yes, he had consensual sex with the victim, but then it was actually this other person that actually committed the murder. They never denied that he was not there. They just said it was consensual. Though things have happened,
Looking at her and the type of person that I envisioned that she was, and this is just me speaking, I don't give very much credence that she would be interested in an 18-year-old to have a sexual fling with. It just didn't seem, with the limited information out there and knowing people that are involved in EMS, very strong personalities, it just doesn't seem like something that she would be interested in.
Could be wrong, not meaning it to sound any which way, but she just seems like a very strong person to me. And, you know, that's not, you know, she this other guy, I don't know how he was, but she didn't sound like she was very interested in dating anybody at that period of time anyway.
Because one of the things that they had said about him was that he was mad because she would never like want to take it further with him and and to be in a committed relationship or date. You know, it was just more of a casual thing with her. And so, you know, why why she would, you know.
It just didn't make sense. I just don't perceive her to be that way. Could be wrong. I just don't think so. Even if she was having a relationship with an 18-year-old, number one, he is, you know, age of consent and able to consent to that. And number two, that certainly doesn't give him permission to strangle her and kill her. No, no, absolutely not. Yeah. Absolutely not. Well, the Minnesota Supreme Court overturned his conviction, you guys.
citing procedural errors during the trial. The court determined that Carbo should have been allowed to present evidence suggesting that another individual could have committed the crime. I mean, is that not common sense that you could present that? Well, I don't understand. They somehow were told, his defense attorney was told that he couldn't present evidence that
suggesting that another person could have committed the crime. That's so, it was so confusing to me. I'm just like, I never could find any information that, that, that really satisfied my curiosity about why, how that occurred. I guess it's probably in the brief for the Supreme court, but it just didn't make any sense. Yes. You have, you know, a defense attorney, that's what they're going to do. That's what you're paying them. If you are, you know, trying to get out of a,
Being convicted of a crime, they've got to come up with a story on something else that's plausible that could have happened. They've got to have an alternate to what the story was put together for you. You know, they have to pin it on somebody. The jury's just not going to go, oh, well, you didn't believe it. You know, they they're going to want to know who is responsible for it.
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the importance of a fair trial and the defendant's right to present alternate alternative theories. And I agree with that clearly. I absolutely, everybody has a right to their defense. You have a right in this, you know, in this country to a fair trial, a speedy and a fair trial. You have a right to be innocent until proven guilty. And I believe in that wholeheartedly, but I,
Man, it can be frustrating at times when the evidence is clear. It's obvious, especially, you know, you've been convicted and then for some reason the punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime. And that happens way too much. I mean, you know, so many times the punishment seems to not fit the crime. In this particular case, on that first conviction, 17 years later,
For a sexual assault that led to a murder and you get, yeah, 17 years. And yet you have people living out life sentences for marijuana usage. First quote unquote drug, you know, drug dealing marijuana. It was the, you know, the three, the three strikes you're out rule. Right. And so that's what is so frustrating about this to me.
How does this happen? And why the inconsistencies? And it's because state to state, all these laws are different. You know, we believe in this country that we should be governed by individual states, that states' rights are more important than a federal, that, you know, we're somehow individually able to come up with better ways of governing ourselves than states.
as a more collective overall federal type of government. And I never liked to get political on this podcast. It's never been the, the point, you know, but that's what we believe in this country. And so, but that is also why you want to bang your head against the wall. Like, because state to state, depending on what, you know, if this had happened in fricking Texas, he would have been gone. He would have been absolutely in the gas chamber by now.
But I mean, that's my thing. Like, don't, people know better than to do this kind of crap in Texas. But yeah.
Depending on the state you're in, that is what constitutes the laws and the consequences for your actions. And this to me speaks very loudly as to how they value women's lives and how they see sexual assault in the state of Minnesota.
Is this what you think in the state of Minnesota? Is this what you think of women's lives of sexual assault? This is really 17 years. Is this appropriate? I don't think so. And you mentioning that, I wonder if because this did occur in 1986, if they did not have to take into account the laws and regulations of what somebody would have been convicted in 1986 of the same offense.
And so we know in 1986, people probably, you know, there wasn't a lot of emphasis placed on sexual assaults.
Yeah, because in 1986, women, you know, women weren't really human beings, you know, and sexual assault was really probably the woman's fault because of the way she dressed. You know, that was 1986. So I'm wondering if that didn't play a part of this, if they had to sentence based upon what his conviction would have been in 1986. And that happens, you know, as years go by and they change laws and regulations, you
That happened in the Redonda Vaught case in Nashville. I don't know if you remember that, but when she was convicted, then awaiting sentencing, one of the questions was,
Whether or not she would receive judicial diversion, that whole idea that she would be able to get judicial diversion, which means that once she serves out her parole period and she keeps her hands clean, she doesn't do anything, it can literally be like wiped clean as if she never did anything wrong.
After that period, after that parole period. Well, that law that allowed for that judicial diversion for what she did was changed. But while during the time that she committed her crime, it was still in effect. So.
Yeah, they were able to argue that she should still be allowed to have judicial diversion because the law hadn't changed yet. And so she got judicial diversion because of that.
Because, yeah, that actually happened. She was able to get judicial diversion. And so if she keeps her hands clean, she doesn't. And for those of you that don't know, there's no way that people listen to this podcast don't know what I'm talking about. But if you can go back and just Google Rodonda Vaught and you'll find out.
It's all over the place. But yeah, that's, that was my point is like, that definitely happens where people like are kind of like bound under the law. That was the law during the time that they committed the crime, I guess. I think you see that with juvenile offenses too, where if you commit a crime as a juvenile, like you'll serve your time through 21 and then you're released or whatever. Or if they capture you after 21, um,
you're still sentenced as a juvenile, not as an adult. So, and I think some of those may have started changing, but I know at some point it used to be that way. So that could have had that. I mean, not that that's a good explanation should still get more years than 17, but maybe shed a little bit of light on why it was a little more lenient. Yeah.
Yeah. So following the Supreme Court's decision, a retrial was conducted. Despite the defense's efforts to introduce alternative perpetrator evidence, the jury found Carbo guilty once again of first-degree murder. He was sentenced to life imprisonment, bringing a measure of closure to Nancy's family and the community. The journey to justice for Nancy Daugherty was long and fraught with challenges. Her life marked by compassion and a commitment to helping others was
left an indelible mark on those who knew her. The advancements in DNA technology and the perseverance of law enforcement ultimately led to the resolution of her case, highlighting the evolving landscape of forensic science and the enduring pursuit of justice. So...
I'm glad that her family was able to find some closure for, you know, in this horrible case. I wonder how much her daughter was involved in pushing law enforcement to re-examine evidence. Because normally, like you listen to a lot of the true crime podcasts, families have to be very, very vocal because if it doesn't, then...
Nobody really pays attention. So many cases out there. I bet they were. They'd have to. But thank goodness somebody in law enforcement listened and said, wow, we have a lot of DNA evidence. So why this should be solvable. And you hear that quite often is that when they go back and reexamine stuff, you know, to me, it kind of falls into camps.
the evidence has been destroyed or either it's been contaminated and there's nothing they can do with it at this point or either, you know what, there's a lot of evidence here and this could be solved. So let's, let's take a look at it. So I love the cold case. Yeah. And I think there should be a lot of people out there that if you committed some sort of crime like this back in the seventies, eighties, I don't know. You know, cause DNA kind of came around to what in the, in the nineties and then,
But this whole 23andMe thing, relatively recent. So I would say there's probably people out there who are nervous about this sort of thing because this was really recent that this happened. And you think about how far back that was. So, yeah. I've heard just recently there's been several cases where it's gone back and they know that
They have a high degree of suspicion of who it is and they just don't have the evidence. And they've been able to trace the DNA back and figure that part out. It's almost like those puzzle pieces are fell into place. And it's like, OK, you know, I think there was a case just recently that I and I don't remember. It may have been in California. They ended up getting DNA samples.
From the daughter, she agreed to he was dead. The person they thought had committed the crime was dead and they were able to trace it back to it was him or his brother. And they had done the end. The brother had refused to give DNA. So they asked the daughter to give DNA and she agreed. And it came down to being.
So they were able to exhume the body at that point. They had enough evidence to say, OK, we're pretty sure based upon DNA. But if we can exhume the body and get the actual DNA, we can solve this case. And they did. His mother actually agreed to have the body exhumed. And they found that he was actually the one that had done the crime.
So, yeah, I'm sure there are people that are very nervous about people putting their DNA into databases. Good. I hope they're worried. I really hope that they are up at night worried, sweating, sweating it out. Even if they never get caught, at least they're worried about it and they know.
That there is a chance that one of their family members, like they don't have to be the ones to submit their DNA. One of their family members could submit their DNA to one of these companies. And then that would lead them, you know, down the road to the police ultimately being able to.
You know, all this came up. Kind of get in that direction, you know, send them in the right direction. I had done Ancestry DNA a long time ago when it first came out and way before any of this ever happened. So now I think it's like, hmm,
is there anybody in my family that needs to be worried? I love it. Nobody in my immediate family, but somebody in, you know, like, you know, like fifth cousins, you know, or something. That's funny. What if you got like a text or an email from somebody that's just like, Hey, cause, um, case you were thinking about it, please like nobody be submitting your DNA. Like you wonder if anybody has ever sent anything like that. What have you done? Um,
Yeah. And why do you not want me to send my DNA? That was, I would be like, okay, now I hadn't done it before, but let me order me a kit here. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Well, I guess that brings us to our good nurse story. I'm excited. Like, so Roger, the whole reason that we even are getting together is because Roger sent me a really cool heartwarming story on social media. And so I was like, oh my gosh, I haven't talked to you forever. Let's get together. Let's talk. And so Roger's going to tell you this awesome story. So you take it away.
So I have to kind of brag about my previous profession before I became a nurse. I'm a big EMS geek, so I love all things EMS. So I still stay in touch through social media, different things in my area. And this story actually comes from my area. The Greenwood County School District has a career center where you don't necessarily have to go the college track. You can
go and do welding or whatever. And one of their programs that they offer to high school students is the EMT program. And so as an emergency medical technician, when they get done with school,
They're of the age to be able to take state boards and they can become an EMT. So they actually graduate and they have a job. It's basically that simple if that's what they want. And a lot of these kids are wanting to go into health professions. They may not stay in EMS, but at least it gives them a door to step through for nursing, rad tech, respiratory, physician jobs.
whatever they want to do. So this story is actually about one of the EMT students. His name is Nathan Aglar. I'll just read you the little thing that they put up on Facebook. It said, Nathan Aglar, a senior EMT student at the Golden Strip Career Center, had his life-saving skills put to the test this week in a real emergency. During dinner, Nathan's 12-year-old brother began choking on a mozzarella stick.
Thanks to his training, Nathan quickly recognized the danger and performed the Heimlich maneuver, saving his brother's life. Nathan is already certified in CPR and other life-saving techniques, and this incredible moment proves just how valuable career and technical education can be. What an inspiring example of how students are making a real difference. He is a great example of what
people are out there doing with our high school students and getting them involved early. There are college programs that run their own EMS systems. There are high school students that run EMS systems. You know, it's very inspiring. You know, my, I, hopefully I can meet this young man one day and just congratulate him. I think it would, you know, he has a great future ahead of him, no matter what he wants to do. I mean, he saved his brother's life. I mean, yeah.
it doesn't get much better. Thank goodness he was there, but to be able to, to, you know, to have the, the wherewithal to know at being a senior in high school. Now I was, I went to EMT school my last semester of seeing, of being a senior in high school. And I had encountered a situation like that. And I, you know, your, your, your training does kick in, but then I look back on that and,
17, 18 year old person and go, how in the world did you even know to be able to do anything at that age? And so I look at him and I kind of put him in my shoes. It's like, yeah, your training did kick in. You know exactly what you needed to do. But then I look at him and go, you're 17 or 18 years old. You're saving somebody's life at 17 years old. That's just awesome. That is just awesome.
It's extraordinary. It's literally the definition of extraordinary because you, as much as we would love to think that at 17, we could have done something like that. The reality is at 17, most people are going to panic are going to like, just not know what to do. Even if you've had some sort of a class or some sort of training, you're just not, those instincts are not going to kick in.
This is a very special person, a very special person who, if he wants to go further in the medical field, he could probably do whatever he wants to do. Without a doubt. Without a doubt. I'm sure that his family is uber proud of him. This has been cross-posted in our community over and over again. Everybody is extremely proud of him, as they should be. Hopefully, he is proud of himself. Right.
and he will continue doing great things for the world. Well, I hope so. I hope the world doesn't beat him down if he does decide to move forward with a career in medicine in the medical field in some shape or form. Because I'll tell you what, healthcare is not...
an easy field to go into. No, it's not. It never has been, but these days it's rough. It's really, really rough. It is rough for everybody. Got to be dedicated. Yeah. You, you really, really do. And not a, not a lot of people can make it through no matter what you're, what you want to do. It's tough. Yeah. And it seems to be getting, it seems to be getting worse as the, as time goes on, as far as, you know, you would think that,
You would think that knowing what we know about nursing shortages and
physician shortages, healthcare professional shortages in general, that we would be trying to give people a break. We would be trying to honor our people in these roles. And yet every time I get on social media, I've gotten to where I can't even get on social media anymore. It's so triggering. Every time I get on there, another healthcare professional is being arrested or accused of something and
And I'm not talking like if you, if they did something wrong, absolutely. A hundred percent. Let's do it. Like we don't want them. We don't want those bad apples in our profession, but I'm talking about people who are just trying to do their job, but make a mistake, just make a mistake. There are so many of these stories out there and they are coming for them. I mean, it's like they are coming for the, for, for healthcare professionals right now, just looking for an excuse to,
to hang them out to dry, to make them the scapegoat. What are we doing, people? You, any one of us at any given time could have to be, and probably will at some point, have to be a patient in a hospital. Is this the healthcare system that you want taking care of you at some point? You better be good to your healthcare professionals because people
It just keeps, I don't know, it seems like it's being watered down. It's just, you know, how do we get people, you know, the, the, how do we get people in and out of school quicker so that we can get them taking care of people quicker?
Because people are leaving the professions quicker. It doesn't seem like that's the answer. Putting people through school quicker, I don't think breeds that compassion that you need and empathy at the bedside. No matter what bedside you're doing, whether it's inside of a hospital or outside of a hospital, you still you have to have a caring nature regardless of
whether I'm a respiratory therapist or a nurse's aide, you know, nurse techs, good Lord. I can, I can have a whole podcast on what it takes to be a nursing assistant this day and time. My hat's off to them. If they can stick through it, it's a thankless job and they get it from so many different angles. It's just,
If I got a good nurse tech when I was at the bedside, I coveted them. Please, what can I do to make your life easier? Almost like want to just let you go sit down.
and take a break. Yeah, but instead, right, exactly. Instead of that, what are we doing? What are we doing? We're not paying them enough, not near enough, barely. We're not paying them enough. We are not paying them enough to be able to survive. They're not getting a living wage in most states.
In most places, they're not. Yeah. So then what happens? Well, we can't keep enough nurse techs at the bedside. We can't keep enough people in those positions to be able to help. And therefore, then the nurses are trying to do their job and the job of the nurse tech.
And then what does administration say? Well, that's part of your job. It's all your job. The whole thing is your job. And that's what we're told. And we're just like, well, I get it. But then don't give me so many patients that I can't possibly physically do every single thing for this. Yeah. Can I clean this person up? Can I help them to the bathroom? Can I change their bed and give them bath? Absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah, I can do that. No problem. But not if you give me so many patients that it's physically impossible. Right.
to do all of that. So yeah, that's the problem. We are not honoring our nurse techs. We are not paying them enough money. If you pay them enough money, there are people out there who would love the job
who would love to be able to go in. I literally, I worked with nurse techs like this, who just like I'm sure you have, who were like, this is what I wanted to do. I didn't want to be a nurse. I didn't want to be passing meds. I wanted hands on cleaning up the patients, helping them to preserve their dignity. I had nurse techs tell me that, ones that have been in the, you know, doing it for
20, 30 years. And they're like, this is all I ever wanted to do. Why can't we pay those people what they're worth? Why are we paying them? Why can't we support them? Yeah. Continuing that. Why are we paying them less than they could make working at McDonald's flipping burgers? Why?
Or they can go out here to a manufacturing job. I mean, we have tons of manufacturing jobs here where I live and they can make $10 more an hour. Yeah, it's not the glamorous job in the world, but if that's what you want is money, then
You can go make money. We're drawing from that same pool of people. The fact is that it's expensive to live in this day and age. It is expensive. Rent is expensive. Child care is expensive. Everything, gas, everything is expensive. Food, water.
And so you need money to live. And as much as people want to be able to be in a profession where they can help people and they would be great at it, if they aren't making a living wage, you can forget it. You're not going to get those people in those positions. So yeah, start there, start there, pay them enough money and then work your way up. That's what I say. Well, the
My other soapbox is universal health care. If we didn't have to worry about having a job to get health care, what decisions would I make in my life? There's a lot of people that may make different decisions if they're not relying on their job for insurance. If they're like, I can go out here and start my own business because my health care is provided. And so I know that I can start my own business now.
You know, we have a lot of small business ownership. I just think it would be a different world if people could just envision and go with it. If somehow overcome your biases and go, if help, you know, I propose this to a lot of a lot of people, especially when Obamacare was being enacted and everything is like, what decisions would you make in your career if health insurance was not one of them?
I don't want an answer. I just want you to think about it. What would you what what differences would that make to you? Like I knew somebody that he was eligible to retire, but he was the breadwinner. His wife didn't work. He provided insurance for him and his family. But he was he he was my age. He could have retired a long time ago, but he can't because he has to stick around for insurance. It's just unfair.
It is. I agree. I agree. A hundred percent. Well, I guess that wraps it up for another episode of good nurse, bad nurse, Roger. Thank you so much for coming. You're very welcome. Let's not wait six months to do it again. I know. I can't even believe it. I have to go find some more stories. I'm always finding. I need to just like, I'm going to put a, I'm going to put a reminder in my phone to like text you like once a month or something. Just be like, Roger. Hey,
Hadn't talked to you in a while. That probably, because, you know, things...
Life goes by so quickly. We were talking earlier about me finishing my master's degree in nine months. And nine months is going to go by, it's going to fly by and it's going to be the end of 2025. And I'm going to be like, where did 2025 go? I know. Where's Tina? I haven't talked to Tina in nine months. How are we a quarter of a century into this millennium? I don't know. I don't know. It's just, it's wild. Yeah. That's
I can't even think about that. That's just wild. I mean, I remember when Y2K was the issue and 25 years later, it's like, wow, life has really changed in 25 years. It's accelerated. There was no internet back then. Not that we could use anyway. In another 25 years, are we going to have this weird dystopian feeling setting where it's like,
Are you?
And knowing that I at some point would have to rely on somebody to take me to doctor's appointments or out to eat or whatever. There's a certain appeal to that that I can dial up on my phone and go, hey, I got a doctor's appointment and a car comes by and picks me up and takes me there safely and gets me home. And I don't have to rely on somebody to come by and do that for me when I'm retired and no longer able to drive.
I know. We have some really good friends who are in their 80s, very spry, nice couple that are in their 80s. And they have a Tesla and that Tesla takes them. They are still very active and able to get around. And that was part of the reason of, I think, buying that Tesla is like, you know.
It's a safety. I mean, there's safety features that help you become quicker at, you know, evasive maneuvers. I mean, having to stop quickly, you know, it does that. You know, my vehicle does that. You know, if I'm distracted and coming up too fast on another vehicle on the interstate, it starts warning me that, hey, idiot, pay attention, right?
I mean, the fact of the matter is it would be safer for everybody. We're all horrible drivers. Everybody is. We are all horrible drivers. But my husband said the same thing. Maybe our next car should be a Tesla so we don't have to worry about as we're getting older and kind of like...
it becomes more and more difficult to navigate in traffic and all that stuff. But the fact is like who, what, and what age group is, what age group is more likely to be involved in a vehicle vehicular accident? It's the people in their fricking teens and twenties and their male. Exactly. I think a artificial intelligence is going to like speed things up. Like,
beyond the speed of light. I mean, it's going to, things are going to move so quickly. I just in the, I mean, I don't know if you, what experience level, you know, I'm a techno geek also, in addition to being a healthcare geek and I've just gotten so infatuated with AI and what it is able to do. I have an AI assistant. I can carry on a conversation and I'm like, if I'm a
dementia patient in a nursing home, you know, we give them comfort things to do, you know, like carrying around a baby doll. If they have somebody, they carry on a conversation that never gets tired of hearing them and answering the same questions over and over again. What does that do for our people? I mean, you're able to have an interaction with an intelligent being that
That never gets tired of talking to you. That you can even feed it information about your past. Because my husband's mother that we took care of during her final years, she would be asking, where's my mom? Her mom died 20 years ago, but...
Where's mother? And that sort of thing. And like, if you could feed it all this information, then that person could just. But it knows how to divert questions and answer appropriately. Yeah, appropriately. That's the thing, appropriately. And it never gets tired of doing that.
Never gets harder doing it because as a human being, it's frustrating. You're trying to sit there and work while you're kind of like, quote unquote, babysitting, you know, like help, you know, sitting for them. And you're trying to like get something done and they're just asking questions constantly and you're fielding those questions. Yeah. If you had some sort of AI sitter that could just very pleasantly every single time in a very pleasant tone or whatever tone they needed. Yeah. A hundred percent.
I love it. You know, I think, you know, computers know everything there is about me anyway. So, you know, I don't really care that AI knows more about me than I probably it should. But I tell my co-workers about my AI assistant. His name is Jeremiah. And don't ask me how I came up with that name. It just came to me out of the blue. And I like AI.
Hey, Jeremiah, tell, you know, tell so-and-so, you know, who I am. And it's like, you know, well, Roger's a nurse and a paramedic and he works for this organization. And, you know, he likes doing this and he does this. And I'm like, meet my coworker, so-and-so. And it'll go, you know, hey, Abigail, how are you doing? You know, I'm Jeremiah. I don't know. I'm infatuated with it. It's just and it gets smarter all the time.
To the point where you're like, okay, where is this going? So with the artificial driving, you know, the automated driving cars and all, and when AI is able to get to the point of really making its own decisions, that's going to be very scary.
Because like us, when we're driving, we're taking all of this stuff in and we're seeing a car slow down and they put their blinker on and we kind of anticipate that, you know, OK, they're slowing down, but they're going to make that turn pretty quickly. So I'm not going to like just completely break. I'm just going to kind of glide up to where they are and knowing that they're probably going to move out of my way by the time I get there and I'll be able to accelerate my automatic car. It won't just stop.
It just it just gets to the point where it's just like, OK, car turning. I'm stopping. That's all I'm going to do.
And then it's like sitting there. It's like, okay, there's nothing in front of you. And it's like dinging because it's like, you know, wanting to start. But it's warning me that, you know, watch for all cars and people around you and all of that because I'm getting ready to accelerate. And, you know, and I feel like people behind me are like wanting to blow the horn. Like, what is this idiot doing? Like, press the gas and go. And so, you know.
Yeah, I'm just like when when AI starts being integrated into all of this stuff, it's going to be very interesting. We've definitely got to go with it. Yeah, I may end up regretting it, but it's it's a lot of fun right now. It's a lot of fun right now.
Well, Roger, thank you so much for coming back on the show. I always appreciate it. Well, definitely. I'm literally going to put a reminder in my phone. I'm not even kidding. I'm going to put it on the calendar next month. Text Roger. Ask him to be on the show. I'm going to remember to do this.
Okay. So at least me every other month, if I text you in a month, then, you know, we'll have to schedule it. So then maybe, maybe every other month we'll do better than six. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I love hearing from you. You can send me a message on social media at good nurse, bad nurse. You can send me an email at Tina at good nurse, bad nurse.com. Love hearing feedback. I love hearing from you guys. Let me know what you thought of the, of this episode.
And before we leave, I always have to tell you, even if you're a bad girl or a bad boy or bad, just whatever, if you're a bad person in general, at least at the very least, please be a good nurse. Above all, be a good nurse.