WHY DO FRIEND BREAKUPS HURT MORE THAN ROMANTIC BREAKUPS? ft. Susan Shapiro Barash
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Hi guys, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. With summer on the corner, I wanted to tell you guys how I'm staying comfy and stylish. Lululemon is my secret weapon. There are plenty of copycats out there, but nothing compares to the Lululemon fabrics and fit. I've literally had my pair of Lululemon leggings since college.

And I'm out of college. I know I don't look it, but I am. The quality is next level. I especially love the Lululemon Align Collection. It's made with this weightless, buttery, soft Nulu fabric that feels like next to nothing. It's so soft. Whether you're in Align pants, shorts, a bra, tank, skirt, a dress, you get nonstop flexibility in every direction so you can stretch the summer limits.

Align even wicks sweat. And as a sweaty girl, I love this. You know it's going to be my best friend when I play tennis this summer. Shop the Align collection online at lululemon.com or your nearest Lululemon store. Welcome to Guys We Fuck, the anti-slut-shaming podcast. I'm Christina Hadid. I'm Corinne Fisher. Slutty, you're horny, and you're shamed.

Hey, you with Swat? Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about fucking.

Hey everybody, how you doing? Welcome to another exciting episode of Guys We Fuck. It's the anti-slut shaming podcast. Welcome. I feel like there was a part of that. I'm Christina Hutchinson. I'm Corinne Fisher. Yeah, I mean for YouTube, yeah. It did help when we were doing it for two weeks. Okay, so censor that. Can you bleep it?

Yeah. Can you put like a toy sound effect over it? Like a squeaky toy? Oh, my God. Ah, ooga. Whose phone's ringing? Mine doesn't make that sound. That's yours. That was my computer. It's an old FaceTime that's coming in. From who? An old FaceTime. Like from a dead person? No, from... Then fucking pick it up, Eric. I'm freaking picking it up. From an Aaron who called me. Aaron or Aaron? Aaron. He called me three hours ago. He? He switching sides?

Wait, spell the name? That wasn't direct. Aaron. A-A-R-O-N. Oh, yeah. Because I said Aaron or Aaron, and then you said Aaron, but you meant Aaron. It just... I don't know. It's the accent that sounds right. I've never said them differently. Yeah. Well, they're different names. Aaron or Aaron. I've never said them differently. I think of them... But that's a you problem. Yeah, I guess I didn't know I was supposed to. They're completely different names. How did you not know that? There also are some names in the English language that they're like... They're just...

too similar and you're like just pick a third thing when I was reading Harry Potter for the first time I couldn't pronounce Hermione so I'm like I'm just saying Harmony fuck it I don't care I don't fucking know what this fucking name is yeah I mean Hermione's made up oh it is good I've never met anyone named Hermione I thought that's like a wizard name

I don't know. She got it from somewhere. I mean, yeah. She's got a lot of ideas from somewhere. I mean. Ain't touching that with a 10-foot ball. Guys, if you want to email us at sorryaboutlastnightshow at gmail.com. I'm at philanthropygal or corinnefisher4mayor, depending on what poison you want to pick. Yeah. I'm at Christina Hutch. I'm at Eric Freddy. And Hermione is named with a Greek origin. Really? Yeah.

Wow, it's a real name. Okay, Greek origin. Oh, is it a goddess? It's from Hermes. Oh, like Hermes, like the fancy-ass brand. Oh, okay. It's the female version. Okay, got it. Got it, got it, got it. Fuck yeah. Okay, today's subject line. Am I an overly forgiving person who overshares? Well, you came to the right place.

Hi, Kurt and Christina. I'm writing in seeking advice on a recent friend drama situation involving my former acting classmate, of course, for context. I have a full-time corporate job but was part of a year-long evening acting program a few years ago. And it haunts me ever since. In which I made some very close friends. Oh, it's like the show Barry.

Sounds boring. Yeah, I know. Oh, shit.

Sounds like you're very healthy. Yeah. Loser. One of my male classmates, let's call him Connor, and I hang out on our own occasionally as we're the only members of the group who like to occasionally rave and party. Okay. Connor had previously dated another girl in our class who I'm close with, and I never sensed any interest from him towards me other than a friendship. That's where you made your first mistake. No, girl. May I want to be your friend, bitch? Yeah. Connor just wants to rave with another adult woman. Yeah. Uh-huh. Sure. Stop.

I was still with my long-term ex when our class started and had told Connor many of the details regarding the toxic relationship and subsequent breakup. Anyway, about six months ago, Connor and I went out to a rave. Let's heal that breakup girl with a rave. Yeah. But it's just friends.

along with my friend who was visiting from out of town. Connor and my friend were outside hitting it off and taking a smoke break, and during that time, I started to chat with a guy on the dance floor who is now my new boyfriend. My boyfriend and I hit it off immediately. We went on our first date about a week after the rave, and we're in a committed relationship after a month of casual dating. He's the kindest, most supportive man I've ever been with, and things are going spectacular on that front."

We may have met at a rave, but we're both high-functioning people with good jobs and plenty of other interests. No judgment here about the rave. God bless you. That's fucking great. Sounds fun.

Fast forward to present day. Connor has hung out in group settings with my boyfriend and I a bunch of times and they get along well. Connor and I met one-on-one at a bar recently to plan for a creative project. Sex. Okay, so here's my pitch. You take your vagina out. I stick my dick in it.

For a little bit and then we leave. Yum. I've always known Connor had some substance abuse problems, but this night he took it to the extreme. In the next three hours, yeah, you shouldn't rave with him anymore. In the next three hours we were together, he drank one beer and seven whiskeys. Three hours? Eh, that's nothing. I know, I was like, that's not that crazy. What does that say about our friend group? Welcome to New York. I know, I mean, for me that would be a lot, but I know people that do that shit daily. Yeah, I was like, the beer was a water and...

And the whiskeys were Diet Coke. Yeah. I don't know. Okay. So in three hours we were together, he drank one beer and seven whiskeys and was still going strong when I finally left. Also, sometimes whiskey, like I'll have two whiskeys in a row sometimes. That's pretty rare nowadays. But like, and I don't feel a goddamn thing. And I'm like, what? Am I like a beast of a man? It also depends how big is, you know, some adult men. True. How big is he? Yeah.

You go to Ireland and you'll be like, oh, everybody has a – like everyone's just – they're really good at drinking. So maybe you're not – I don't know. Who knows? Connor got really aggressive and combative towards me and the female bartender as he continued to drink. OK, yeah, fuck that shit. If you act like that, you got to cut yourself off. At one point he kept bringing up to me – one point he kept bringing up to me was how he was offended that I had sent him a text announcing my new relationship after my boyfriend and I made it official.

Okay. Okay, Connor. Oh, God. That's the most... Yeah.

stop. I would never have thought something like this could be offensive in my view. I was sharing. Yeah, but he's an injured man. So of course not. Of course you didn't think that. Yeah. In my view, I was sharing exciting news with a friend who had previously met my boyfriend knowing that we had shared experiences and we would be hanging out in the same circles going forward. Yeah, you were excited. This is fine. You're absolutely right. Connor also dropped points that I was pretty and cool and intelligent, which is why he wanted to pursue this creative project with me. Okay. What? Okay. So it is. So it is. He wants to fuck you.

Cause no one does. I don't do creative projects with people cause they're pretty. No one does that. A guy. Sometimes I do. Yeah, she does. If you were ugly, quite frankly, Christina, I would never have asked you to work together. Oh my God. So you think I'm so pretty? That's amazing. I was like, yeah, you had to be pretty enough to sell. Yeah.

Corinne from Eric. He additionally hinted that he found my boyfriend's career to be unsavory. He's just jealous that he's being a little bitch. The bartender and I were trying. I have no idea. The bartender and I were trying to get Connor to stop drinking. Well, that's you don't try. You do. You cut him off. But not you, the writer, the bartender. That's why they say he got cut off.

We're trying to get Connor to stop drinking and go home. He got super angry with us for assuming he was too—I hate when the drunken person does this. You just think you're fucked up, do you? I fucking hate that shit. He got angry with us for assuming he was too incompetent to take the subway and should call an Uber, telling us to fuck off.

He also started yelling at random people in the bar and getting heated when they ignored him. Connor needs therapy. I decided to leave before the situation got any worse. Good. As I was on my way home, I got a ton of texts from Connor saying things like, fuck you, motherfucker. That's so weird, texting a woman. Fuck you, motherfucker. That's so funny. And bragging about the college he went to. He's in his 40s. Oh God, he must be in politics. Connor's in his 40s?

He must be in his... He must be in politics because that was a... I was just telling my mom about how I've never had so many adult people tell me what college they went to. Oh, really? That must be a political thing. And, like, I'm not going to, like, name drop the colleges, but they said... Well, comics don't...

don't go to college. Um, except like Harrison went to Harvard. He's talking about that, but I'm like, yeah, so if I went to Harvard, I would remind you all the time. Well, that's the thing. These people in politics were talking about what colleges they went to and they're not even Ivy League. They were just like, you know, like they're like kind of expensive, like the Armani exchange of colleges. Oh, gross. Kind of expensive, but no one respects it. That's sad, man. That's not that bad.

University of Phoenix Online, you guys. Fuck off. You get the gist. I was very upset over how the evening went and told my boyfriend everything. He was incredibly compassionate and understanding. I also texted a close friend from my acting crew, let's call her Nicole, to ask for advice on this situation. Yeah, you don't need advice. Connor fucking... Yeah. Connor doesn't like a part of himself and it's spilling out into a friendship that was never actually a friendship because he wanted to fuck you the whole time. Yeah, you need to run for the hill.

Connor. Yeah. Oh, I would like to. I didn't note this earlier, but if there's a guy and he kind of likes you. Yeah. Even just or has the inkling. Run away. And then you tell him about a breakup. He's going to take that every time. Yeah. And you know what? An invitation. And Ryder, you're not dumb. No. I think part of you knew. Just saying. Connor.

Connor called me and gave a sincere apology the next day. Oh, God. He admitted his substance abuse had been out of hand recently and that he plans to go back to therapy. That's great. Good, Connor. He agreed to only meet at coffee shops going forward to work on our creative artworks.

You're still going to go ahead and work on a project with this guy. I think he's proven himself to be not a great, uh, project partner. Uh, I was sympathetic and accepted his apology and said, I still intended to go to his birthday party with my boyfriend later that week. Fun.

I'm sure your boyfriend's looking forward to it. Honestly, he probably would be like, let's see what the shit show does next. However, my friend Nicole was less easy on him when I gave her the update and ended up ditching the party along with another girl from our acting class. I felt terrible. Like I was responsible for worsening Connor's reputation. I mean, no, he was responsible for his own reputation. All you said was what he did. Right. That's not your fault. Yes. He already considered two debaucherous, uh,

He was considered too debaucherous by many in our crew. Yeah, and that's only going to get worse until he fucking has a rock bottom or he decides to bail before that. But I've always been more lenient given I like to party occasionally myself just with much more balance. Yeah, you're in control of yourself. Oh, this is why you got a fuck you motherfucker tag. Fuck you balance motherfucker.

My question for you ladies, was I right to so easily accept this apology from Connor? He has never wronged me personally before, but in the past, I have been overly forgiving regarding this type of behavior, which is what led me to staying in a toxic romantic relationship with my ex for too long. Oh, you just answered your own question. Was my text announcing my new relationship out of bounds? No. He was a friend, and I'm sorry. Even if you knew he wanted to fuck you, and even if he knew he wanted to fuck you, you

you didn't go into this saying, hey, let's try to date. That wasn't a spoken agreement. The unspoken agreement, rather, was like, hey, let's be friends with work on creative projects. So if he takes that to the next level, that's on fucking him. That's on him. Yeah, unless there's something we don't know about this text. Like, it was like you went on Canva and, like, you made us save the date for our relationship. Like, I mean, like, yeah. I mean, that's just, I would, stuff.

Did you just say like me and so-and-so are official or did you like make some kind of a graphic? If you made it some kind of a graphic, you're obnoxious, but that's not illegal. But you were excited. Like, you know, I, it's an exciting moments when you're excited about somebody. So I get it. You want to share. Uh, and was it an overshare to spill the details, uh, to my friend, Nicole, who is now more bitter towards Connor than I am. No, this is called friendship.

Yeah. That's what friendships is. Also, Nicole has her own life journey. Nicole had a completely different set of circumstances and experiences than you did in your life. So Nicole's reaction is going to be different. And also, seemingly, Nicole was looking for an excuse to hate Carla. Yeah. She already didn't like him. She was jerking off to everything you said. She needed one little more peace.

to lock the deal. Yeah, she was like, my intuition isn't enough. I need hard evidence. Yeah, yeah. And you gave it to her, so good. I often struggle to find the right balance with the information I should and shouldn't share. And I hear you. Something I've discussed extensively in therapy, I assure you. Anyway. That's interesting though because that seems to me like almost like neurodivergent. Like, oh yeah? It should be pretty clear to you

What information you should share and what shouldn't you? I think if you're used to somebody kind of being a twat about it in terms of like – like if you had people in your life that are like, I can't believe you said that to them. And basically what they're saying is, I can't believe you told them what I did. Like then – and if you don't understand what's happening when that comes down on you, maybe that causes you to be a little more alert. Maybe. I mean – but yeah, I'm like it's like – it's not –

If someone didn't tell you it in secrecy or in privacy, like if they didn't ask you to hold it, and if it wasn't something like embarrassing or vulnerable, this is literally just a circumstance that occurred that you were a...

actively a part of. Connor might find it embarrassing, but that's his problem. Yeah, it's not like Connor. He should find it embarrassing. Yeah, Connor didn't tell you something in confidence. Connor acted in a way and then you told Nicole the events that occurred that again, you were actively a part of. Also, you were confused by what transpired. Nothing wrong with that. You were also like, hey, I just want to talk to somebody else who knows him about this because I just want to make sure I'm seeing everything clearly here.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like you're being a little too lenient with Connor just because his reaction when you were with him, like drunk for the first time, like, cause it seemed, I'm guessing if you're going to raise and stuff, you're probably using, uh, like psychedelics and stuff, which is going to be people reacting differently. And listen, I have a theory that alcohol brings out the worst in everyone. I just like, don't, I'm not a big fan of the way it makes people act in general. That being said, um, I, uh,

I just feel like this was like a really telling circumstance. Don't work with this motherfucker. That's not going to be easy. Yeah, I don't really, like it's obvious he has feelings for you and I don't think that you have to stop being friends, but I don't think you should embark on a creative project together. No.

I don't think that's going to be healthy for you. Doing a creative project with somebody can be such a sacred process. Like don't ruin it with his shit ass attitude. And to me, I think like now what he revealed is that he's still going to always like kind of be around hoping and waiting for failure in your relationship. And you don't want that energy on you. Like how incredible is this project that you must work on it with him? I, I,

I, yeah, that makes me nervous too. Again, I don't think you, I don't think this was grounds for like immediate dismissal, but it's a weird way to start spending a lot of time and probably money together. I would say to him, Hey dude, I only work, I want to do creative projects with you, but like you need to get your shit together first. He can't deny that because he told you he had a substance abuse problem.

And like if they're actors, like her being pretty might be important because maybe it's like on camera something. But again, it's like, what is, what if you're pretty with somebody else? I'm guessing like, you know, Connor wrote a play where he falls in love with her character. You know, like I don't trust this guy. We've seen where we fuck. Yeah, honestly. And,

that's it can you give me a little more information on this creative project honestly though I would really love that please write us back what it's called raving beauty raving beauty yeah yeah I just like untouchable beauty yeah and the drunken beast yeah I don't know oh man yeah it's just a recipe for disaster

But you know what is it? Our, my Patreon. That was good. That was smooth. Guys, I don't know if you know, so we're the leaders in podcasting.

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And yeah, sign up for my Patreon.com slash Christina Hutchinson, where once a week I do group Sherpy over Zoom. One of those weeks every month is a woo-woo themed Zoom where we do group meditation. And I was just saying this in the bonus episode we recorded. We did a mediumship exercise this last month and it fucking worked. It was very exciting. So you can come. It's five bucks a month. That's nothing in this economy.

It's half a coffee. Sign up. Come talk to me once a week and we'll do weird ghost shit once a month. Patreon.com slash Christina Hutchinson. Amazing. Amazing work. And then you can catch me every Wednesday live streaming on YouTube without a country. It's my political podcast. I get very even like much, much more in depth about the mayoral race there. We have girl.

interesting guests on, like cult experts and animal rights activists. But mostly it's just, you know, going through the top news stories of the week and finding the truth between the right and the left. And it's really fun. I love doing that show. It's a...

It's great to catch you up on everything that's happening in America. And then we do international as well. So 9 p.m. Eastern every Wednesday on YouTube. And then you can also sign up for my Patreon if you want an additional video news story every single week. That's patreon.com slash without a country. I do recommend that Patreon. There was a lot of international people who were like, how can I support the mayoral campaign when I can't?

uh, make a donation and you're like, you could do that. Cause I'm still, you know, I'm obviously like not doing comedy and stuff. So it's still a financial burden to myself. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a great way to support me in the show. And, and honestly, like it's just an extension of the kind of work that I do. Like running for mayor is honestly just like a huge extension of the kind of work that I'm trying to do. Uh, being transparent about what's happening in our government. That's one of the explorations that we, uh, do on without a country. So if you,

So, yeah, we're in this process right now where we don't know if you're going to be on the ballot because they're basically trying to make sure that you're not on the ballot. Correct. Which is, you know, I naively am shocked over that. It's so funny. Christina was like, how can they do this to you? And I go, Christina, this is literally the moment I've been waiting for.

This was all leading up to this. I knew this. I knew, I didn't know exactly how it was going to happen. I knew there was going to be a ballot access problem. I actually thought it was going to come from another candidate. The thing is, this could be coming from another candidate. We just don't know. Like we don't know, you know, because obviously it would be better for the candidate to,

If like they tipped someone off in the board of elections and then, but then they didn't, I don't act, there's no actual face to the injustice. Exactly. So we can't call them out. That's much smarter. Much smarter. But what, like what, like, so, and then if you don't make the ballot after this, the second hurrah, this like second appeal that you're going through. First appeal. Yeah. But yeah. First appeal rather. To the initial case. Yeah. Correct. Right, right, right. He's just going to go on stage. Yeah.

I don't know. What a switch of like schedules. I mean, well, I mean, that's kind of what I did the other time around. I just stopped going on stage and started going to mayoral forums. Yeah. Which arguably more performative. Yeah, I get that because you have to put on like you have to talk a certain way and you have to. I think it's like less about the schedule. It's more about like, like I'm a.

I don't want to say I'm a different person now, but like I, I, it's, it's like I did get to the next level of this video game that I've been, you know, trying to get to the next level of for some time. And so like my worldview is different now having been through this many months of this. So I can't like, how so to answer your question, I can't just go back. I mean, you can't unsee the things I, I saw. And so, you know, it's like you have a,

I had a thesis that politics was corrupt. Now I know it to be true. And now you're like, okay, well, I'm, I, you know, kind of the foundation of everything that I've pursued in my life is, you know, truth and trying to make people understand or want to have more control over their environment and to want to go out in the world and change things. And so if I go out into the world and try to change something, um,

And the world actually says, no, you're not allowed to. I mean, that's going to cut like that reframes. I'm going to have to sit and think about what is my life look like from here? You know, you don't want to live this. Like you have this piece of knowledge, false quest for empowerment when you're running into a fucking wall, right? The systems suck.

So what do you do? And I mean, I think it's about continuing to shine a light. I hate that phrase. In your journey. It's a main journey and it's continuing to shine a light. Just like love yourself through a whole journey. But yeah, no, it's like, I'm sure there's other people who have been through this. I want to find them. I want to talk to them. I want to compile more information. I want to see what legal steps I can take to make sure that it doesn't happen to people in the future. I mean, I think there's a lot. I mean, I got to take a little nap first. Yeah, take a nap. Go on a little vacay. I don't have money.

for it because I spent a lot of money running for mayor. You can go to my beach house now. I got access to it. We're going to my beach house, Corinne. We're going to need to stage that. Oh, I know. I know.

we're going to the first time on friday and i'm like i'm gonna come in with like a fucking like a beekeeper suit yeah yeah yeah yeah i'm gonna send someone in there well i did have a plan to sage gracie mansion before entering it too i told you know one of our spiritual advisors i was like girl you don't have to you don't have to fly in from la and sage grace gracie mansion because i'm not stepping in there hell no

but I bet they have marble columns. Yeah. That's cool. Oh my God. There is a woman, I stumbled across this Instagram video. Her name is Vera Papisova.

She's a journalist and she, for Cosmo Magazine, dated MAGA guys for a whole ass year. I know who you're talking about. Such a Sex and the City experiment. Yes. And she portrayed herself on these apps and she wasn't completely full of shit. Like she wasn't like lying.

As as like MAGA curious or like basically saying like like like a lot of people like a lot of Democrats have like gone fuck this party. This party is weak and it sucks and you're feeble minded.

You know, so she's like, you know, she kind of maybe leaned into that a little bit more for the plot. But she kind of came back and reported exactly what I would have assumed. But for some reason, hearing it from somebody who actually went on dates with these men, I'm like, like, they're just they all get their news from one place and they hate themselves.

And that is heartbreaking. Like that sucks, man. That fucking book. And I, and I fucking, and I know not everybody that voted for Trump hates themselves. I mean, I don't think that everybody at that rally hated themselves. I really don't. I think a lot of them love themselves, but, um, but yeah, maybe instead of hating themselves, they just put like, they put like a savior complex onto somebody else instead of themselves. Maybe like, that's like a version of them hating themselves. Who knows? Yeah. Because my comment to that is like, I don't think that's MAGA specific. I think maybe,

many men hate themselves. I mean, many people. Yes. I think many people hate themselves and certain. Yeah. Certainly many men hate themselves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, that's just sad. Yeah. You gotta, you gotta like, there's a ton of people on the left who hate themselves. That's not, that's certainly not a right specific. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not a, it's not a gender specific thing. It's not a affiliation specific. For sure. But I'm like, Oh, when she was describing it, I'm like, Oh, I hope they feel better. Yeah.

I hope they find a way in themselves to feel better. I hope they feel better too, but I just hope it's not a woman who is burdened with making them feel better. No, they got to do it because that's not them feeling better. That's them putting a bandaid over it.

Yeah. When a person comes into your life to make you feel better, that's just them being a bandit. Eric, as a man, how do you make yourself feel better? How do I make myself feel better? What do you do? If you say jerking off, I'm going to be very upset. I don't know. That doesn't make you feel better. It doesn't? That's fucked up. No, it just gets rid of the tension in your head. Yeah, the demon in your head. That's a...

Sounds like feel better to me. I don't know. It's not feel better. It's get back to baseline. That's really what that is. I don't know. I might explain it like that a lot. That's how I – I mean I masturbate every day, sometimes multiple times a day and I get it. Yeah. It's like – you ever play the old Sonic games when you go under the water and there's the bubbles and you have like five bubbles and they slowly go away? Oh, dude. You're bringing me back. Yeah. That's what it's like waiting to jerk off.

Sweet. She wrote a short film waiting to jerk off. Well, it's not like I'm sitting in a waiting room waiting. You could be in this movie. But I'm saying that's like the tension building up in your head. So what do you do to feel better? I would say the best thing is go to the Russian baths.

If I feel really... This is very New York City specific, Eric. No, I was doing that in Chicago. So all the men who hate themselves have to travel to New York City and go to the Russian bath? Go ask for Vladimir. Go to... Do the cold to the hot to the cold to the hot to the cold to the hot. Do the Wim Hof shit. Yeah, do that. Yo, that shit is crazy. My brother started doing that shit and he's like, honestly, I can handle anything. And like, I'm watching him handle my parents and I'm like, I'm gonna do cold showers now. I love cold showers. It regulates your... Nervous system. Yeah, your nervous system so well that it's like...

If I do that and I just like take the night off, it's hard for me to feel bad the next day. That's true. That's a great tip. Do the things where it's hard for you to feel bad.

It's a runaround way to think about it, but I totally get it. I totally get it. Where it's hard for you to feel like eating cotton candy. Like you're setting yourself up for success. Yeah. Like, you know, you're not going to regret, like no one regrets the drinks they didn't have or something like that. Yeah. I guess it's like a self-care day, but it's like set yourself up for, to feel good. It's self-care, but manly. Yeah. Yeah. Give yourself a day. Go to that Russian bath. To take care of yourself. And then if you still feel bad after that, then. Then you gotta go to therapy. Yeah. Then you gotta go to therapy.

Dennis Pretty Serious. Yeah, Dennis Pretty Serious. Do you know Dennis Pretty Serious? Yes! Corinne, how'd you know? Just an inkling. She wrote a lot of books, but one is about a topic that I'm so excited to dedicate an entire episode to about female friendships. Her latest book, Estranged, How Strained Female Friendships Are Mended or Ended, is now available for you to purchase. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show, Susan Shapiro Barash. ♪

We are here with author Susan Shapiro Barash. You just wrote this book about female friendships called Estranged. And we, this podcast is about dating and we've talked about breakups. It was founded, like one of the impetus for the podcast was a breakup. But friend breakups...

hurt deeper. And so we've always wanted to go into female friendships in this topic, because it can be like heaven and it could be hell, frankly. There's no question you're right. And 75% of the women, I interviewed a very diverse group of women, 150 for the book, then I did another 111 for a questionnaire in the back. And 75% of the women ages between 20 to up

to 80 and, you know, different race, ethnicity, level of education, religion, all across the country. 75% said that it was harder to break up with a female friend than to break up a romantic relationship or a marriage. Yeah. Oh, wow.

Yeah, because you're really choosing – you're like I don't like you and I don't want you in my life. Like it's just a rejection of – there's so many levels of rejection. I feel like we expect relationships to not – every relationship won't work out until one does. But breakups are like points of song and inspiration for movies. But yeah, when you break up with a friend, it's just like I don't like –

you in my life. And everything has changed. In fact, the preface of the book is called, Has She Changed or Have I? And that's such a salient point because we choose these friends. This is not like a family. I love that you said that. Yes. And so we choose and we trust and women hold the bar high in any relationship, a love relationship, a

friendship for sure. And we think that the men or any partner comes and goes. We think that children grow if you have children. But you know, you can be single, you can be partnered. It doesn't matter because we always have our female friends. So this best friend forever idea has been really

something we're convinced is right. And that's not the case. What kinds of toxic friends can one encounter? You named a couple, like the green-eyed friend and stuff. Can you go through? We all know who that is. So I start with the faithless friend. And that's a friendship that's going just fine.

And then a third party or an event in your life that's so different, then the status quo changes it. For instance, you fall in love with someone, that partner doesn't like your friend, or how about your friend doesn't like that partner. Oh, it's so stressful. So it's, yeah, stressful, triangulated. Or you are moving to San Francisco and you've changed politics in another chapter.

But you have changed in a way that it gets in the way and now there's a tension in the friendship. Yeah. Yeah, and I think a lot of times, much like we attract a toxic romantic partner to relive some unhealthy dynamic from our parents, I mean, I have a matching tattoo with a woman I don't talk to anymore. So...

But the idea that you tattooed it, you thought it was for always. Oh, yeah. BFF. BFF forever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. And it was so toxic. And, you know, we both took place in the toxicity dance for sure. Was there a particular relationship in your life that inspired you to want to write this book? Yes. I would – I'll admit. Full disclosure. Let's get into the tea. Let's spill it. A few. A few where I said to myself, why did this start on such a high note? Mm-hmm.

Why have I been betrayed? And so through the book, although I have all the other stories, I do thread the winner among the toxic friends for me personally.

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Align even wicks sweat. And as a sweaty girl, I love this. You know it's going to be my best friend when I play tennis this summer. Shop the Align collection online at lululemon.com or your nearest Lululemon store. Can we go through that for you? What type of toxic friend were they and when did you recognize the signs? It took me a very long time. It took a lot of self-discovery.

awareness, like looking in a mirror and saying, this is the truth to let it go. And that's the question that so many women had to answer. And well, you know, did answer but had to face in this book. And that is, why do I stay with this friend who is actually dangerous for me, harmful? And do you like in those types of situations? Like, do you do you recommend like,

Not blaming because blaming doesn't do anything. Blaming is shameful and that goes down a bad path. But like taking personal responsibility for like being in that friendship. Like I think that's the most jarring part of like how – I thought you were the shit and I was not –

We are both responsible in this dyad, but definitely, and I label it, so the estranger is the one who leaves, and the estrangee is at the receiving end of the estrangement, but...

A lot of the women, oh, and let me interrupt myself to tell you that I was really fortunate and per chapter I got one story she said she said. So I got both sides. Oh, nice. And that was really fascinating because in a few of those stories, the women said, you know what?

I'm lucky she left me or I realize now we were not in a good place. But the hanging on and the believing that it'll get better and the loneliness, even 25-year-old women said, it's really lonely without her, even though I'm glad that we broke up. That you're so used to the time and the hope invested in this friend. And it's also confusing that you can have

genuinely, I'm thinking about the friend I had, like such a good time together. Like you have your own secret language, you have all these inside jokes, and you genuinely are having fun together, and yet it's toxic. It's just very confusing. It's a lot like a romance that goes bad. Yeah. Where there was such a high point and there was such expectation. Right.

And you think that this friend, plus a lot of women said they were very worried about the secret shared. Oh, yeah. I told her so much. Yeah. Really? The only one who knows. Oh, I don't know what that's like. I tell everyone. She did this to me. What did you say? I tell everyone everything. So I don't, I'm like, ain't nobody got dirt on me.

Right. But that's really how they felt. I didn't even think of that aspect. Yeah. Yeah. And then how about the friend who's hierarchical where you're very important to her, but now she aspires to a different life and you don't fit in. So those friends come first. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like if they're different income, like I think it's still hard to be friends with somebody who's like super rich. Like I'm not super rich, but like I had a friend like that in college. I'm like, this is difficult.

You're too rich. It's really difficult. And I actually have a section of the book called Friends with Money because it just causes a wedge, especially if one of you has – There's a way to work around that that's like – there has to be a way to work around that that's authentic and real, right? Like just talking about it. There has to be a world. It's not happening. Okay.

So much. And I'll tell you why. So here's the deal. I started this book. My mother died seven years ago. And when she died, it was a time where I really saw which friends were there for me because I was so brokenhearted and which friends surprisingly were not.

So that was a lesson. So I pitched it to my agent and we talked about it. And then she said, you know, I write fiction under a pen name, Susanna Marin. She said, well, you have to write your Palm Beach novels. Those are due. So I put it aside. Then COVID came another time to wake up and realize what relationships count and which ones don't and who did what. And then I finally got back to it, handed in the novels and...

it was two years ago when I started to interview, I had only interviewed about 25 people, women before I started, you know, just two years ago. By then everything had changed. And this is what's so interesting. Because of COVID, I think that people were able to measure differently what really matters to them in life. So instead of

wanting to estrange, maybe having the guts to estrange seven years ago when I started to look at this, women were now saying, you know what? I feel this is a positive measure. Not that it wasn't hard to do, not that it doesn't cause grief or loss, but I feel empowered doing it. And that's a new trend. That's a new trend. That's interesting. That's definitely trending. Because as I said, seven years ago, women were saying, I feel like I failed. You know, good girls, good girls, right?

don't leave their friends or do something, although we do. But we're pretending. Yeah, I mean, letting go of people in general, and this not just includes friendship relationships, but also parental relationships, that's been a big topic online. It's entered the zeitgeist in a way that it absolutely did not exist even, I would say, 10 years ago. To leave...

To be estranged from your parents. Well, when I pitched this book, family estrangement has always been in the ether and books are published about it and even taught in sociology classes. But nothing on estrangement with female friends, more like, gee, my best friend and I carry each other. More positive, what would I do without that friend? But the other side of that is, can you believe she did that?

That's what I'm writing about. Huh. Right, right, right. And I mean, did you, did you talk at all? I mean, or,

Or compare it all to the male friendships? I mean, or are men's friendships just not complex enough to even have a discussion about leaving? See, you answered your own question. Yeah, I mean, I kind of knew the answer, but I was just like, I'm just wondering. No, it's a good question. Sometimes, you know, in my book tours for my nonfiction, I'm asked, and what about men? And I say two things. I say, a book on this topic for men would be a pamphlet. And I say, you know, in a patriarchal culture,

where we live and will die in a patriarchy. Um, there aren't the same expectations. There isn't the same, um, multifaceted aspect to the male condition or to the male journey. Right. So we're looking at how women navigate a path in a culture where they're judged constantly. Yeah. We're judged constantly. Mm-hmm. Um, back, going back to your mother passing away and you realizing your friendships, uh,

I'm so interested in that because I've heard Corinne talk about that a lot. Like, wow, you really know who you're – when a parent dies, you kind of know who – and I've since kind of heard it echoed by a lot of people. And I think it's so – so that to me seems like almost par for the course. Unfortunately, when you lose a parent, it's like you also see this like which friendships hold up and which don't. And I'm curious for your personal experience. Like how are people there for you in a good way and how are people there for you in a way that was detrimental to you?

or not there, I guess. Friends who showed up and kept in touch in those very dark months that followed, which unspeakable pain, I thought really unbearable. Those who were there and, um,

And then the friends who didn't show up at all. Did you reach out to them or did you say anything to them or just not have the energy? No, it just made me think that I needed to investigate it. For every book that I write about how women are positioned in contemporary American culture, I'm looking for that book in the bookstore. For example, when I was 23 years old and I was...

Getting married for the first time, I went to the bookstore for a mother-in-law, daughter-in-law book. And I couldn't find it. And so years later, three children later, by then I had a lot of friends. Oh, and that, let me interrupt myself. You know, the like with like of it. You know, women love to have mirroring friends. Oh, yeah.

You're single and still working in the city. I too. Oh, we have friends in the suburbs that are now bonding. Oh, we both have babies. Oh, we both got divorced. You know, whatever it is. And as women get older, because longevity being what it is, women are always mirroring each other in these new phases. So here it is with this mother-in-law book. By the time I wrote it and researched it, again, a diverse pool of women, I had so many friends who had mother-in-law stories of their own.

And it was, I thought, a very necessary book. And by the way, whenever I toured for it, like 90% mothers-in-law showed up and only 10% daughters-in-law. Because it's exactly what my conclusion was, which is daughters-in-law don't, I don't want any mothers-in-law on this listening. Your findings are your findings. Daughters-in-law don't care as much about working, you know,

you know, as say, cause I've been around a while. I was a very dutiful daughter-in-law, but the daughter-in-law today says your mother. No, sorry. You take the kids over or your mother, you go have dinner with her. Oh,

Oh, didn't even hang out. Yeah. So it's shifting. Okay. And so, you know, that's who showed up to hear me, the mother-in-law who wanted more. Aw. Well, cause I think like a, you know, a lot of daughters-in-law like modern daughters-in-law almost have been sold as story that the mother-in-law is almost like a competition and like you're both in competition for this one man's attention. Which is weird. Totally true. It's a real try.

ankle. There's no question. It feels like a love triangle, but like one's the mom. So it's weird. Don't. That's illegal. So we're weirded out by it. There are all these red flags. Right. If you are buying a house and your husband calls his mother when he hears that the offer is accepted instead of you. Oh, I would be. Yeah, I would leave immediately. This

But that was a great study. So anyway, the books that I'm looking for are books that I haven't really seen. I did three studies on the role of wife. But I did do a book on female friendship in the early 2000s called Toxic Friends, The Antidote for Women Stuck in Complicated Friendships. And what was interesting about that book...

And that study was that women were really trying to heal it. And so, again, as the research continued and then, you know, this book, women are saying something very different. The shape-shifting is very real. Do you think it's like people are more mindful of their own inner peace? And so...

self-preservation and more self-reflection. Like you really have to ask yourself, what do I get from this friendship and what do I give? Like honestly, a pros and cons list will take you a long way. That can actually really, that's such a simple thing that can help you through life because you're like, oh, seeing all of these anxieties that this friendship brings me versus the good times is

It's so outweighed that this doesn't – like if you take your emotion out of it, which is tricky in these situations, but if you do, you can think logically and go, oh, this doesn't make sense. I'm not getting the gains. But –

But the reason it is so emotional is often historical. So even women in their 20s said to me, well, you know, we were in kindergarten together. You know, we were college roommates. You know, our mothers were very good friends. You know, we have this history already. And then, of course, older women, you know, go up every decade. You'll hear these excuses for why we stay with the friend. Yep.

And yet, you know, breach of trust and some sort of betrayal is a very big deal. So that chapter, since you asked about chapters, The Thieving Friend was a really sort of juicy chapter because the stories were amazing. I mean, some women, all ages, stealing a partner. They're stealing such a...

What the fuck is at the root of that? That is terrible. No, no. But you would – I know. It's such a betrayal. That is like epic betrayal. It's like fairly common though. No, we've gotten emails about that. I'm like, girl, how did you handle that? I lived – I had a roommate, an old roommate in college once who – oh my god, she lost her best friend and her boyfriend. I'm like that because she – her best friend and her boyfriend hooked up and are dating. They're still dating I think.

You just have to always date people that no one else are interested in. And that's how you solve that. It's a much safer, you know, idea because once that happens and then the women who felt very burned in the thieving friend chapter spoke of how,

This is sort of what we say in romances. How can we ever find someone after what we've been, what we have endured? Same deal. Same deal. I'm not so sure I can ever trust another female friend. So I heard a lot of that. Yeah, that makes sense. That's a, that's a, I also think too, when two women get mad at each other, I've, I've tried to make a joke about this on stage, on the stage for a while, but like I've observed my girlfriends with sisters, um,

they have the most epic fights I've ever seen in my life. Like I have been present for it. I had a very mentally ill mother who would fight with my dad and it was awful. But like, I've never experienced the intensity of, as I have witnessing my friend, my girlfriend argue with her sister, like in the multiple, I have multiple friends like this. There's something about like, and when I get mad at a woman, I get mad.

And I don't know. But what's usually the cause? It doesn't – it's very rare that I get mad at like a female friend though. That's the other thing. It's like it's not very often. But betrayal, manipulation usually. Like if I find out, oh, this is – you've been manipulative and I didn't catch it until now, I get very mad. But one of the reasons – years ago I did a study on female rivalry called Tripping the Prom Queen.

Great title. Yeah, I like the title too. Thank you. And in that book, I really looked at how, again, sorry, the patriarchal culture very much feeds into women just competing with one another. Oh, for sure. And we've internalized the male gaze and all that stuff. And thinking, I just saw an article somewhere recently.

Just like in the last day or two about what beauty, you know, the whole beauty culture and what it does to women. And I was thinking as I read it, well, where does it come from? If you want to look great for your friends, fine. But if you feel, you know, if you're objectified...

But if you're doing it to look good, to attract a man, that's from Neanderthal times. And it's also just, it's distressing. It's discouraging. So it's for two different reasons. But in terms of female rivalry, and we do compete for all the glittering prizes, and so do female friends can be very competitive. And I look at that in the green-eyed friend chapter.

So anyway, what we're really doing is we're up against so much from the beginning because of the limited goods that's been applied to us. We live in a world of not enough pie. So we're always competing in any –

And there's this sense that if she gets it, I can't get it. Like there's not enough to go around. And so that also comes into the friendships too, if the friends are very competitive or very jealous. I feel for people who have an experience. I have these, I have friends, that one friend that I don't talk to anymore is from high school, but I have like a lot of friends that I still talk to from high school, but it's,

It's like I want every person, man and woman, to experience that type of friendship. And I have a bunch of them. That you just get so...

when a success comes your friend's way. As if it's your own, you're just so happy for them. That's so authentic. Yeah, yeah. That's what we're looking for. And it's very possible. We're looking for the authentic friend. Yeah. It certainly is, but you have to have enough in your own life. Yes. And you have to work on yourself in order to be truly happy. And some women aren't.

Yeah, I think if you're used to this baseline of feeling like shit, basically about yourself, about your life, about where you're headed, then a friend coming in and treating you like shit isn't going to ring any alarm bells because this is your baseline. That's why I'm like I want everybody to experience a friendship that's just like, oh, you got that job? Fuck yeah, I knew you could do it. Like that kind of support is like once you have that, you'll never go back. Right, and surprisingly, women don't do that enough. Yeah. Yeah.

Women of all ages in this book are really looking at their friend's achievement as somehow they're missing out. We can't feel like we're missing out. We do have to be there. Well, that goes back to my mother. When my mother died, I knew who was there in a time of great sorrow, but also a time of great joy.

The friends who, you know, and women reported on that. I had the best, like you just said, I had the best news and my friend wasn't really thrilled for me. Yeah. Yeah. So jealousy is age old. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's always some internal stuff.

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and hold these foreign investors accountable. Contact your lawmakers today and demand they take a stand to end foreign-funded litigation abuse. Hi guys, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. With summer on the corner, I wanted to tell you guys how I'm staying comfy and stylish. Lululemon is my secret weapon. There are plenty of copycats out there, but nothing compares to the Lululemon fabrics and fit. I've literally had my pair of Lululemon leggings since college.

And I'm out of college. I know I don't look it, but I am. The quality is next level. I especially love the Lululemon Align Collection. It's made with this weightless, buttery, soft Nulu fabric that feels like next to nothing. It's so soft. Whether you're in Align pants, shorts, a bra, tank, skirt, a dress, you get nonstop flexibility in every direction so you can stretch the summer limits.

Align even wicks sweat. And as a sweaty girl, I love this. You know it's going to be my best friend when I play tennis this summer. Shop the Align collection online at lululemon.com or your nearest Lululemon store. If a friendship is toxic, can it be saved? So do women really sit down and have that conversation that's so common when you leave a love partner where you say, let's sit down and talk about, you know, can we save this?

Women don't really like doing that with the friendship. And why do you think that is? I think that women don't really like conflict and they don't like confrontation. And who knows if that's innate or if that's the culture telling us that we have to be good girls and that would be not confrontational. When I left that friendship that was like 15 years long, I just blocked her and never talked to her again. It wasn't even a conversation. Oh, so that brings us to...

Another good point. Why is ghosting so common? Yeah. Ghosting is so common among female friends. That's so interesting. Yeah. And that leaves so many unanswered questions that really rip away at somebody's like psyche almost. Like a lot – we get a lot of emails about like men both in a romantic sexual sense and in a friendship sense of like they just stop talking to me. It's like here's the thing. There's a million reasons why. So – Well, it makes you question yourself.

And you say, well, what did I do wrong? And that's actually changing too, where women aren't so much saying, what did I do wrong? Instead, they're saying, you know what?

She did something that really isn't acceptable to me. So more empowered. Yeah. But the ghosting and also the slow fade and the icing. So women say, you know, they're suddenly just like not hearing. They're pushed out. The real problem with this is that so many women belong to a group of friends. Okay. So you jeopardize your whole.

whole status if you really have to leave one of the women within the group right and women don't like doing that yeah so it is inconvenient yeah it is and and you wonder now we can't bring terror because ashley's pissed right and also then you say to yourself why should i leave her and get punished and pushed out so at the same time women are estranging more than ever

From friendships. From friendships. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's, and, and has there, like as a variable has technology, I feel like presents this variable because it's even, it's like harder to get rid of friends now. Like I, I mean, for like, for lack of a, you know, a smoother way to put it. Yeah. I mean, I actually would let go of many more friends if not for Instagram.

It's just too much. It's like, it's like honestly just easier to talk to them intermittently at this point than to go through a conversation because I, I don't really like ghosting. I've ghosted a couple of men, but the, when I was thinking about the reason I ghosted them, it's because I had expressed to them that,

my problems with the relationship so many times it had fallen upon deaf ears and I was like well we just can't have this conversation anymore so you're just getting blocked but it's not like I just made a you know a ghosting out of nowhere I had attempted to have the conversation and they were just unwilling to have it but I don't I don't think I've ever ghosted a woman you

And yeah, so I'm like, yeah, I'm just honestly like easier to have a conversation or chat with them pleasantly every couple of months than to distance yourself. You're saying that you're not there in this. I'm not that close to anyone. So I guess there's no real distancing. That's the kind of person I am to be honest. What about you? I yeah. So that one friend that I stopped talking to, I let her know. I'm like, hey, you are being rude.

so disrespectful to me over this and it was it was just more of a I got so tired of walking on eggshells about like she would be mad at me and wouldn't tell me so I didn't know and then she would be mad that so much time passed that I didn't

know why she was mad at me. And I'm like, now you're just punishing me for... This is so out of my control. I couldn't blame myself if I tried. So it's very clear to me. And then it's just like I had a very emotionally abusive mother. So it's twinning. It's the same thing. Oh, it felt the same. It's the same. It felt the same. So it didn't feel weird when all my other friends were like,

This is a weird friendship you guys have. You're weird. And you – like she would criticize me like she was my parent. So I have a chapter on the critical friend. I hate – And also on the one who's disrespectful because that really bothers women. It's such a terrible feeling. Because we get criticized for everything. By society nonstop. A friendship is a safe space. And if I ask you for criticism, that is a completely different – that's a completely different vibe. But if it's unsolicited, like –

But also I look at too – like I always try to look at if I can have emotional distance from it. What are they going through? So like that critical friend I've had, I've witnessed them. I'm like – but it's so obvious to me that that friend just hates themselves. Yeah.

I can't blanket that's the reason for everybody. You start to really understand that she has a problem in some cases, but at the same time, you also know for your own self-preservation, you have to estrange. And that's something women are coming to now. You know what's a very new...

um happening with these friendships is the where the friends have opposing views oh yeah politically about vaccine about how to raise children but what's different is that it now is enough to make to cause a breakup before you know women would say oh you think that way you voted this way it's okay um

Not since COVID. I think that COVID just unleashed again such really, you look at it this way, I look at it this way, it's not the same. And then politics, the last two elections. Yeah. That's really been a very big deal too. I know people in my life that have lost friends because of that. A lot of people. And family members too. Yeah. Where you hear about it. And then in-laws. Yes.

Yeah, because it's like – it's not creating your own liberal bubble so that you're just an echo chamber. But some things are really difficult to see past in terms of like –

You know, a man in my life who I'm related to voted for a guy that says grab him by the pussy. That might not be what he's thinking about when he voted, but that's what I'm thinking about. So it's like, you know, everybody's own personal experiences come into play. It's really, you know, this change of values. When two friends thought they were the same and now they're disparate. It's a really big deal. And that's enough to cause estrangement as well. Have you ever had a friend that you've had different values with?

By that smile, I'd say yes. I have. How'd that go? I made a decision. Since we're talking about my beloved mother today, I remember one of the last things my mother said like the week before she died. She said to me, and how can you stay friends with those friends who have voted a certain way? And I said, Mom, I'm overlooking it. She said, she could have been in this book. She said, no one can overlook that. Yeah.

It's different now. So yes, I have friends who have different values. And if they mean so much to me, I've made the decision to stay. But what I couldn't stay with was a friend who wasn't really on my side. For me personally, that is more significant. A friend who's really not rooting for me and...

that jealousy that you can feel it's in the ether that I don't want in my life anymore. Yeah. It's everything.

Everybody wants something different out of a friendship, right? Yes and no. Like, kind of. I want someone with a boat. Yeah, I want someone with a steakhouse. Going to summer. The main thing I'm looking for is that person with a boat right now. A very circumstantial friend. But much like you were saying that when you break up with a friend, you don't have this conversation of, can we save this? When you start a friendship, you also don't have the, what are your values? You just kind of learn over time and you're just there. We make...

make a lot of assumptions about romances and about friendships. You meet someone and you're attracted. And it can be platonic, it can be more, you know, it can be sexual, but the point is

We have to really listen and we have to really learn about the person. And sometimes you don't, you know, one doesn't because she's so enchanted. And that's very true with female friendships too, where we just go all in too quickly. Yeah, of course. In a female friendship.

for sure. Yeah, because a lot of times we're attracted to people who are almost aspirational. I feel like there's two types of female friendships. They're aspirational, like, oh, I want to be friends with her because I want to be more like her. And then the other one is like, let me take her under my wing. You know? The rhino at the end of the Jumanji parade. Well, it's like Cher and Ty in Clueless. You're like, oh, let's give this little gal a makeover. Yeah, Clueless, but Clueless

is a very hierarchical you know sure because Cher is the it girl yeah and they're so often the it girl and then how does that make you feel and what about if it changes and suddenly as time goes on you become when Ty got the makeover and everyone paid attention to her Cher was like I made you well and that's where I feel like oh man it always breaks my heart a little bit but it's part of life of like that patriarchal society you were talking about women now see like it

we're, we see ourselves through the male gaze, which is so exhausting. Like, you know, we just have to make an effort to stop seeing ourselves through that. But it's like, yeah, when you have a friend who's like way hotter than you, that creates a thing like that's just like, and then you got to deal with that. And I feel like, yeah, the way people deal with these little changes in dynamic, there's,

So many layers. But this book study is really about your closest friends and your best friends. It isn't a circumstantial friend. It isn't the one who has the boat or the great house out east. And so we're really looking at, as I said earlier, expecting so much from the friend. And it's really devastating when you lose that friend or you know that you have to lose her, even if you come to that point.

Which, like I said, is really empowering. How do you get over a friend breakup? How do you heal? You move on. You find new friends. You hope that you're wiser. You hope that you have more clarity. You try to understand what happened. Although a lot of women said, I don't know what happened. I don't know what happened here. Really? You know, it was just one day the friend stops talking to you. Yeah, a lot of times like...

If you sat on how you really felt for years, you're going to kind of explode one day or implode and it can take the shape of just seeing ever. What's for certain is that we all want female friends. Yes. That we go on with it and that we make friends in all the different ways that we lead our lives. So it could be Pilates. It could be work.

It could be through a mutual friend, although sometimes that gets kind of tricky too. Again, because of, you know, who's more important here. Absolutely. So have we really evolved? Yes. But are women of all ages still struggling with the friend not being who she should be? Yeah. It's still happening. Except now we can estrange. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just thinking about, yeah. Yeah.

I was like going on a little internal journey there. Did you, I, you know, especially at this age, so I'm 39. I feel like at this age for me, and this is not like being estranged on purpose, but I definitely feel a difference between my friends who have kids and then my friends who don't have kids. I feel like there is like an air of women who have kids. Like, honestly, they look down on it. Yeah. Not on purpose, but they do.

They kind of think like my life is like silly and I have no responsibilities. And I'm like, I'm literally running for mayor. So much fun. That sounds pretty responsible to me. I go. And so I think there's this like there's almost like a bias that women have against ourselves, that there are set responsibilities that in society are considered respectable. And then other pursuits are almost frivolous.

And, and like, it is still like, you're kind of like not considered a, like a female adult until you have the responsibility to,

of taking care of kids. It still feels like that. But that's because women are taught to judge one another and that has to stop. And we are so judged anyway. Right. I know. So first we're judged and then we judge each other. I don't know if we can stop the judgments that come from a male long taught,

application. But we can certainly stop judging each other. And it's really true. You know, years ago, I was asked to speak, I still remember this, at Bayer Diagnostics, which was like a huge campus in Westchester. And before I met, you know, before I went on the stage, I was asked to speak with all the very...

high up women there. And one of them said to me, you know, there are the Uber mothers in my town and I'll never forget this. And then there are the working mothers and we don't understand each other. Yeah. That has to stop. Right. What's the difference? She was saying, well, then she used Uber before there were Ubers.

Like the moms was always there at pick up. Yeah, the mothers were so perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I don't know if you remember, but years ago there was a novel that came out in England and then the States and then Sarah Jessica Parker made the movie. I think it was called I Don't Know How She Does It. Okay. And I remember like

Greg Kinnear, and I'm just remembering the whole thing, and Pierce Brosnan was in it. But she has this incredible career, very high up, very corporate. And she basically lies to her male boss about what she needs to do so that she can go to her daughter's dance recital, her little girl. So everywhere we go, there are all these different

judgments and there's different expectations of women. So working women versus the mothers and single women who I pitched maybe five times a book called Single by Choice.

Never sold it. I wanted to do it from the 90s. Wow. I'm going to date myself. But that's great. I mean, it's so ahead of your time. And so it's true. But it was because it's so important. Or how about women are divorced with children? They're judged. So this mirroring where we have to be exactly the same really narrows our chances at all these different friendships and also at all these different experiences. Yeah.

Women have to coalesce. We all have to work together to get where we need to be. How can we be kinder to each other or how can we foster deeper friendships in our lives? By really trying to understand one another and by embracing the choices other women make.

Like the perfect example is being a candidate for mayor. Yeah. I mean, that's a big deal. And, you know, again, not getting political, but we've seen two women run for president. Yeah. That didn't go well.

I thought they did a great job. They did a great job. No, of course. America made it very clear that they don't want a woman president. That's exactly what I say. And that's really troubling. Yeah, it is. Overqualified women. Yeah, it is really troubling. You're absolutely right. And what's so hard to understand about that is the options don't come to us so easily. Yeah. And then we don't embrace them.

When they do. So, so there's a lot going on, but it does actually, it's very personal and then it's enormous. And the personal is about having healthy friendships and being the real friend to the friends too. Not just, you know, what she did to me, but what have I done? Yeah. Because we know it. Personal responsibility. Yeah. Yeah.

It's always a two-way street for sure. Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, and I think we see like a little bit more like I follow accounts where people have, you know, like they have a baby shower, but they also have like a career shower. I follow this astronaut, Kelly, I forgot her last name, Kelly G something. It's like an Italian last name.

But her mom is very supportive of all aspects of her life. And so, you know, astronaut Kelly is going through the IVF process and has a baby and like all those things are celebrated. But her mom also like threw her a big shower for her next mission to space, which, you know, huge. But that's.

So cool. Yeah. Pretty cool. Enormous. And how many women get to space as astronauts? Very few. I know. Katy Perry and Kelly. Yeah. Just them. Yeah. So we need to see more women in top positions. Yeah. And in terms of women supporting women, which is a real, I think so important. I remember when Hillary was running again, not being political, but when Hillary Clinton was running for president, um,

wrote an essay and actually that came out called Will Hillary Always Be the Prom Queen?

And that's about why we don't support women or girls because we're girls when we're prom queens. Yeah. And why we feel that an achieving woman is somehow robbing us. Yeah, threatening, robbing us of an opportunity when instead what it's really showing us is how much opportunity there is for us. Yeah. If we could only grab it. Right. Like, exactly. To me, when a woman achieves something, it's just another, like,

look at all these things you can do. Look at all these options that you have, even options that maybe weren't even accessible or thought of 20 years ago.

And that's how I see it. But so many people, you're right, do see it as like, oh, it's almost like, oh, I didn't think of that. So I'm going to not support this person in her pursuit. And what it takes for women to achieve. And then it does go back to the friendships because in one section of the book, women were saying, you know, she and I have grown apart, but why not admire, you know, a lot of times it's about work.

I interviewed two women who had come here from another country. It's one of the she said, she said stories in the book. So both sides.

And they broke up. Of course, it was very inflamed. And we should talk about that if we have a moment. Like sometimes it's just so incendiary, such a blow up. Yeah. It's not just ghosting. But they really did grow apart. So when they first got here, they were part of everyone who had, you know, everyone else's from their country had come here. And it was almost clannish in a good way. Right. Yeah. And then as time went on, you know, they all grew apart and they all achieved what they achieved. Right.

But this one of the two friends really aspired to be educated and she wanted a different experience and she wanted to be married. The other woman felt that, you know, there was no need to be married. So they grew apart over no longer mirroring or reflecting each other exactly. Yeah.

And in a way, not having, they fell into that chapter, not having the same values anymore. But it just shows you that we have to be more open, more inclusive of a friend who

Has different values. Has different values. I think it's also more interesting. Me too. I don't want a friend who's exactly like me. I want to know what you're like. Are you married? You got a husband? What's that like? What's it like to sustain a marriage? I have one friend who has a husband who's had a husband since she was in her early 20s. And her marriage is a really big part of her life and keeping it up and making sure she massages it and stuff.

And like, that's so interesting. I'm like, why, why would we want friends that exactly like us? But some of the women, when that happens in this study complained and they said, you know, she has no time for me. She has three little children. Well, that's self-evident. She probably doesn't have time for herself. Right. Right. Exactly. Or a woman who says, you know, I only want to be with friends who are in the workplace and are not

living in suburbia who live in a city anywhere across the country. I really don't know. It would be awful to be in suburbia. But it's okay to have the city and the life you choose and to still be friends. So a lot of times women almost hold it against each other. Oh, that sucks. Yeah, it's not good. That's so sad. That's going to be internalizing to the patriarchal stuff. That must be. Yes, and...

The idea that 80% of the women in my study told me that they expected their friends to really kind of catch them during a terrible fall or something really sad that happened. And I...

you know, that's really a high percentage because we all have very complicated lives. So there has to be more give and take with that. And yeah. And in those big moments too, like, you know, you reach out to a friend who's going through something bad, but then like, like what if your life is just really busy and you forgot, is that the friend's responsibility to go, Hey, can I just call you to vent? Or is it your responsibility to go, Hey, how you doing? I haven't talked to you in a minute. But then I can, I see, I can see like so many relationships where it's both friends think the other one's supposed to

contact them first and then no one says anything. And then all this tension builds. You know what I did also look at in the book that I found really interesting is the fictive family.

And a good example of that would be Sex and the City. Do you remember? Oh, yeah. How those four women at all those restaurants, except for one mother-in-law, Miranda, had a mother-in-law for a little bit. But everything that they gave and took from each other was family. There were no family members. No one had a sister. Right. You never saw any Carrie's family. No. The whole time. Right. No one at all. Like her dad died. No, Miranda's mom died.

That was like one of the only instances where you heard... I just remember Ann Mira, the actress, played the mother-in-law when Miranda marries Steve and unexpectedly has a baby. Oh, and that's a good example of...

you know, the idea there's not enough pie. So poor Charlotte's going through all this to have a child. She's very upset. And then they sit at the table one day and Miranda says, you know, let me paraphrase, but I didn't expect to have a baby, but I'm having a baby. And Charlotte says something like, but I'm having the baby. Yeah. Well, in theory, they, they can both, they can all have babies if they want. So the idea that, that if,

that that magical theft still exists in all of our friendships and in our culture. You know, so if a woman achieves a great deal, we say, well, she got it. I can't have it. We should say, she got it. I can have it too. We can all have it. Yeah. So that's what has to change from the French, you know, ground up. Yeah. A lack mentality can really make people behave in very ugly ways. Mm-hmm.

And I don't blame them because I feel like the society just throws it on us a lot in a lot of ways. Well, it's so competitive and there's a lot of suffering, you know, personal suffering. Yeah. A lot of women feel that life is passing them by and maybe not their best friend. That just causes tension. So two ways that the friendships don't last.

and that people are strange. One is cumulative. Just enough stuff has happened that you finally say enough. It's just been repeated. It might be a different circumstance, but it's always the same end result. Or there's a big blowout fight where they just really end up where... And those two women you said, she said had a big blowout fight. What did that look like? It looked like

one of them really, really being cruel to the other. And they never spoke again. And so much regret from... In the book, it's called Helen and Gabriella. So much regret coming from Gabriella and so much admiration for what was and the idea that it's finite and over from Helen. So that one was very poignant. And then there's one of this, she said stories...

where the two friends were really, really trusted friends and everything was fine. And then one got divorced young. Young woman got divorced and started dating her best friend's brother.

Big problem. Oh, big. Well, yeah. She was just territorial over. The brother was really incendiary. He created a lot of friction. And, you know, she now said instead of getting to be with my best friend, she's with my brother. Yeah.

Right. It's not ideal in her defense. Yeah, it's not ideal. Yeah. And I also look at celebrity culture and I look at, you know, it's not just the interviews, but I look at literature, at novels where, you know, the Ilana Ferrante novels. And there is competition sometimes in even the healthiest friendships.

if the friendship can sustain it, if it works out well. Well, there is what's called healthy competition. Yeah, women aren't as good at it as men. You asked me about men before. Men do competition better because, you know. I've always admired a man. A man can get punched in the face by another man and then minutes later help him up. A woman gets punched in the face by a woman, that woman is dead. Like the fury that arises. So there's like less –

I don't know if it's less forgiveness for women. I don't know. Healthy competition is so hard to come by. You know, it was, like I said earlier, it was very important to me to look at a diverse group of women. And so one day, um,

I interviewed – this was for Tripping the Prom Queen. I interviewed a group of women in the Midwest, and they had a bowling league, a very competitive bowling league. And the head of the league was explaining the problems. And later I interviewed on how the women competed and how they – some were friends and some weren't. Then I interviewed, like in South Florida, a tennis league. Yeah.

And they were much more privileged women and they had the exact same problems. Interesting. So, you know, for all of these studies, exactly, what women long for

Really has nothing to do with if you've gone to Harvard and have an MBA or you barely got out of high school. Yeah. Yeah. If you're unhappy in a love relationship, if you're unhappy with your best friend. Yeah. If your daughter's troubling or your work is not going well, it really doesn't matter. And we all long for the same things. Yeah. Did you encounter a lot of women who were estranged because one of the women was dating someone in like abusive relationships?

I looked at abuse. You know what else I looked at? I looked at, in the wayward friend chapter, I looked at when one of the two friends in the dyad had sex.

A drinking problem or a drug problem. You know, some kind of addiction, even gambling. Yeah. Yeah, any addiction. They're all the same. And what it did to the friend, the best friend, as the enabler. Oh, the enabler. And in the end, a lot of them said, I can't do anything more and I don't think I'm even helping. But those are difficult situations. Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. Did you have any other questions you want to ask? This has been such a great conversation. It's so good to meet you both. Yeah, you as well. What an interesting like topic to dive into. And so pro, I feel like we have to read all your books now are so prolific in the experience of women.

Thank you. Yeah, thanks for doing the work that you do. We appreciate being here. Thank you. And yeah, so we just want to promote the book. You have a preferred place for people to pick it up, your own website or what's your? Well, the book is sold, you know, bookshop.org and Amazon, indie bookstores. And I love to hear from readers. Oh, nice. Very cool.

And can they contact you via your website? Website is great. Instagram. Awesome. Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. This has been Guys We Fucked, the anti-slut shaming podcast. We'll talk to you next Friday. Thanks. Bye. Guys We Fucked is presented by Luminary. Created and hosted by Corinne Fisher and Christina Hutchinson. Editing and music coordination by Eric Freddie. Theme song by Rob Patterson and Jake Kozen. Please, oh please, make the sirens ring.

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Wake me up, oh, shake off my nerves Oh, then push me to see I can feel, feel, feel The sand on my skin You're without, I'm within Where you gonna be? Bring me back to life Oh, it's beginning to Bring me back to life See through Oh, can't wait another moment to Put me on rack I feel like I do

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