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Okay, so the other day, I'm avoiding life, doom scrolling, I'm part of the problem, mindless, and I don't know how, but the algorithm, the digital overlord, it knows me, sees me, plays me, makes two kinds of things pop up in my phone.
The first are ads from companies selling stuff to men with oversized heads. How does this thing know it's always the same pitch? Is your head too damn big? Well, we've got a hat that can fit even your watermelon-sized noggin. And no one else sees this ad on their phones. You don't see it on yours. I've checked. The other thing that pops up for me are videos of fathers doing their thing.
Catching babies as they fall from windows. Snatching the toddler up from being run down by a runaway Camaro. Not spilling a single drop of beer. And the burly, tattooed bearded man wearing a tutu and tiara at the recital dancing with his little daughter. I'm all choked up watching the same videos over and over on my phone. It's beautiful. They're beautiful. And did you know that Mother's Day...
is the busiest restaurant day of the year and Father's Day barely registers in the top 10. I'm sure that is as it should be. This is not a competition. In fact, we here at Snap, we have made Mother's Day episodes of this show, a few of them. And for some reason, we give fathers short shrift. But this algorithm says fatherhood is important to me. And maybe your algorithm says the same thing.
So today, Snap Judgment proudly presents Mac Daddy. My name is Son Washington, and BigFatWaterHeads.com is running a sale. When you're listening to Snap Judgment. Now, did you ever get a job? An unexpected job. It's kind of a crazy job, and you know that Pops is probably not going to approve.
And honestly, we all want to live a life that makes our father proud, but sometimes the world takes you places you never expected. In those moments you wonder, or maybe you know, nah, daddy's not going to be too happy with this. Snap judgment. It is a sensory overload and you smell the sawdust immediately. You smell the popcorn and the cotton candy immediately.
It was absolutely chaotic because you hear all these different languages at once. And the poor woman who's trying to get everybody their IDs, she's having a breakdown. She's pregnant at the time. You have animals training over here. You have acrobats over there. It's the first day of a new job for Jonathan Lee Iverson. And he's run away with the circus. I realize...
With that moment, I said, okay, this is the kind of place where they throw you in the ocean and you have to swim. And they gave me some juggling balls. Why don't you learn to juggle these balls? Because you might have to cover one of it. So I'm hanging out with this Hungarian and she teaches me a couple of the juggle three balls. And, you know, then I went around with the dance captain.
It was this incredible, like, it was a wild act. He would climb up this ladder about 20 feet in the air, light himself on fire, and dive into an airbag. I was in shock most of the time, because you never get, it's never not thrilling. It's the 1990s, and this is not your local small-town circus. It's the Ringling Brothers and Barnum & Bailey Circus.
The animals that were in the parade, elephants, horses, camels, zebras, I think a couple of llamas. It just was, I remember an ostrich. Yes, we had an ostrich, you know, and we had a leopard. And Jonathan is there not to sweep the sawdust or breathe fire or walk a tightrope. He's there to be the ringmaster for the greatest show on earth.
the man who stands center ring and conducts the madness. I started off with ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, everybody's standing around, the whole company is standing around. Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages. And then I sing the opening number for that show that year and I get this rousing ovation. I mean, and everything gets busy from there, literally.
Jonathan is 22 years old and a long way from where he began in New York City. Ringling Brothers lured him here off the opera circuit because they wanted a big voice. They wanted a singing ringmaster. And, you know, at the time I fit the bill. I was not seeking out Ringling Brothers. The idea of circus wasn't even in my thoughts. I mean...
That's not something I thought I would do professionally, so it wasn't a thing for me. Jonathan had sung with the Harlem Boys Choir when he was a little kid. He'd sung at Carnegie Hall and the White House. He had dreams of singing on stage at the Metropolitan Opera. There's always this thing because the narrative of circus is so negative and so thick. It's not as legitimate as opera or music.
Broadway or something like that. Like somehow circus is less significant. There was one more thing about taking this job with Ringling. A big thing. He wasn't just going to be next in the long line of Rigmasters. He was about to become a pioneer of the big top. He was about to become a first.
I was told immediately about the historical ramifications of my presence at Ringling Brothers. I would not only be the youngest, the first Black American, but also the first New Yorker to don the top hat of Ringling Brothers in Barnum & Bailey in what was then the 129 years of its history.
He's in the spotlight as the first African-American ringmaster at Ringling Brothers' Barnum & Bailey Circus. At age 22, he became the youngest ringmaster at Ringling Brothers ever and the first African-American to do the job. He got tapped to be the first black ringmaster. Jonathan Lee Iverson is a true example of black empowerment. I understood the significance and I didn't, you know, shun it, but...
I needed people to get beyond the optics of something I can't help. And so that was my main concern because I worked really hard to be a singer. I kind of want you to look at that. The pressure is instinctive. You understand you're the great experiment and you understand that if you don't make this happen, if you fall on your face, if you're not excellent beyond that, no one else is getting the shot.
So that was that pressure. You have to be Jackie Robinson, man. You have to be Barack Obama. You have to be pristine. You know, every black person knows this. When they become the first, it's not even enough for you to be the most talented guy in the room. You have to damn near be Jesus, you know? Jonathan was given a 12-foot-tall float that he was to stand on as he led the parade around the Big Top. I'm moving on this thing, and I have to sing.
and an out, and this thing is shaking. He was given sparkly tails and a top hat, and they wrote music for him, and he developed his act around those songs. Welcome to the World of the Circus was the name of the opening number, which was our opening parade, and it just starts with this lovely piano introduction. I'm on top of a pedestal, and I'm welcoming everybody.
Come along, it's time now. Come along, let's go. And it just starts really soft, and then it suddenly opens up, and then you have this cavalcade of everybody. Clowns, elephants, obviously, horses, camels, everything's coming out. Zebras, everything's coming out. It's like this, the song itself was designed for this beautiful tribute to this wonderful fantasy you're entering in.
Night after night, Jonathan led the parade around the Big Top, and then when the show was done, onto the mile-long circus train. And they'd set out across America. I was given a quarter car. It was a bedroom, a living room kitchenette, and a bathroom with shower and everything. And it was all mine. It's beautiful. You climb on to the vestibule, into your train car, and you don't have to live out of a suitcase for two years because it's home.
It's a city without a zip code. There's this blanket of gratitude and awe that goes over you when you're in the middle of this. I don't know if I was in the middle of a show. I don't know if it was just me being on a train and just watching America go by. I would stand out on a vestibule and I would watch, you know, America go by. It was fun. It was beautiful.
As the show rolled across the country, Jonathan sang and announced and introduced. Baltimore, Maryland, we're here. I'm your ringmaster, Jonathan Lee Iverson of Ringling Brothers and Barley Horizon Center. March 24th through the 27th and the Patriot Center, April 13th through the 24th. But as he tried to settle into the role, he felt all this pressure on him.
I was struggling at that time, mind you, with the whole idea of this whole black first, because I was in that mindset of, you know, I don't want people to see that, you know, whatever. Tell me more about that. What was the struggle? It was just, you know, I understood instinctively as a black person in this country, you don't want to deal with the hassle of
of the color schemes. No one wants the race card to go away more than black people. It's annoying. I didn't want my talent, my merit to be overshadowed. And I was like, I don't want to have all my efforts mired in people working out their own peculiar bigotries and perceptions and heaping that on me.
So what would you do to fight that annoyance and that pressure you felt? There's nothing I could ever do to fight that, because if I fought it, I would give those people what they wanted. Jonathan put on the show one night for about 20,000 people. And after the show, with sweat dripping from underneath his sparkly top hat, he was intercepted. And this one performance, and I'm dead tired.
I don't want to deal with anybody. I think it was on a three-show day. I think it was basically the end of a three-show day. And I'm dead tired, and I'm walking off the arena floor. Everything was clear. And this gorgeous mother stops me in my tracks. Tears just streaming down her face. What this woman is about to say will change, well, honestly, everything for Jonathan. Stay tuned.
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Jonathan Lee Iverson, ringmaster of the Ringling Brothers and Barnum Bailey Circus, had just finished a huge show and was stopped in his tracks by the mother of a young black boy. She kind of came out of nowhere. She kind of like appeared. And she just simply told me, she said, you know, you have no idea how bad I wanted my son to see you. I needed him to be here just to see you. That's all she really told me. I got exactly what she was saying.
The thing I realized is I could do, I could do two things. I could do more than one thing. And that really was the tradition of my people. To be quite frank with you is, you know, you could be, you can excel at what it is you do. And you could do it being cognizant of the fact that whether you like it or not, you are a representative.
Jonathan learned to stand in the circus ring, both as a symbol and as himself, and take it all in. But the roar of a thousand strangers was nothing compared to the silence of one man. My interest in my father's approval was something that was unknown to me. I didn't really know how much I needed it. There's something about your father saying, I approve you. You are validated. That means...
rings really to the very DNA of a child. And I don't care how old you are. It's something about your father doing it because whether we like it or not, you are your father's child. Jonathan's father did not see his singing career as a dream realized at all. My father was an immigrant from Trinidad, Tobago. He was a beautiful dark-skinned man. He was a firefighter.
New York City firefighter. And I knew he wasn't in on this thing, you know? Singing is not something you do. He's an immigrant. You go and you get a practical job, get the benefits and retire, you know? So singing wasn't, what are you going to do with that? Like, how did you know that that was what was his feeling? Oh, I knew it was his feeling because he said so.
Yeah, what are you going to do with a degree in Doremi Faso? You know, the biggest dream killers are your parents. Biggest dream killers are the people who are most familiar with you because they don't know. And he would try to give me, I remember my senior year, he gave me an application for a port authority police. His dad lived in his hometown of New York City. And the way that Ringling Brothers comes into New York City is with a parade of elephants through the Midtown Tunnel.
I remember riding an elephant through the tunnels. We did like a media blitz around Madison Square Garden. So I was with the great Gunther Gable Williams. And I have a picture of it, and it's one of my fondest pictures of him placing me on top of an elephant. And I mean, I think it was the first time I was ever on an elephant.
And it was in New York City. In New York City, Madison Square Garden. So it was just this cavalcade of elephants, horses, camels, you name it. You're the king of New York for this little bit of moment, you know? Like, it's this epic thing. The one thing that will humble even the most...
Like, heart in New York is seeing an elephant. It's like you have to melt, you know? Everybody becomes a kid in the presence of them. Your curiosity peaks up and you're like, wow, you know? The day before the show, Jonathan went back to his dressing room in Madison Square Garden, changed out of his sparkle top hat and tights and into regular clothes to go meet his dad. It was a Thursday. Thursday.
And my dad actually picked me up. And it's so funny because when he came through the door, I just instinctively just grabbed him and hugged him. I never really hugged him before, but it was like this unction to hug him. And so I did. And he hugged me back and we went and ate and joked a little bit. And then he drove me to get my hair cut. And in the car, we're having, he says, look, I want to talk to you about certain things.
He says, you know, listen, I want you to kind of understand, like, there were certain things I had to reconcile with my father. And you might find there, those certain things you might have to reconcile with me as well. Things started kind of, light bulbs started popping off. I said, okay. Then we get to this exchange about marriage.
You know, in his way, he was saying, I'm sorry. Forgive me if I wasn't what you needed. So we were just parked across the street from the barbershop. So he said, all right, listen, for this thing tomorrow at the garden, do I have to wear a suit? I said, yes, you got to wear a suit, Dad. He has baseball caps, T-shirts, has his beer, and that's who he is.
Then we finished talking and smiled and I walked across the street to the barbershop and said, I'll see you tomorrow night. The next morning started with Jonathan's dress rehearsal. The magic was in the air. You could just feel that. And I felt like I was 12 feet tall. And I knew it was a special, special night. I appreciated every ounce of it. I was like, I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to get all. And
Somewhere in the middle of the rehearsal, it felt like somebody pulled something out of me. And my body, like I just like, spinned around or something. The director looks at me like I'm a bit insane and I just kind of like, I don't know, it just felt like something left my body.
put on my opening costume which was this red uh the red classic coat but you know with the sequins and the stones and you name it i felt clean and just spectacular was it heavy was it cold heavy oh yeah it was very heavy very heavy but not in the sense that i couldn't carry it but that particular night i remember feeling a sense of levity and it was as if i came into this role finally
Like leading up to it was like this turbulence and all of a sudden it felt like I was okay. And it felt that way the entire night. And, you know, so you just had this packed hippodrome of fabulous artists, both animal and human, these glorious decked out floats,
Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, the Feld family is proud to present Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey. Welcome to the greatest show of... There was Crazy Wilson Dominguez and his whirling wheel of wonder. There was, of course, a single trapeze. There was this fantastic wire act over the tigers.
It was really, really exciting. I remember I give the first announcement. It was the Donner Act, which was a... They were juggling on horseback. And I was standing off to the side. And all of a sudden, I kid you not, I felt older and really settled. And I had no... It was like I just had... I was completely...
at peace. Like I felt like in such control. I just felt older. The whole entire, that was the only thing that went through my, so I just feel so calm. I should, I thought I was going to be a nervous wreck because it's New York. This is my town. This is Madison Square Garden. It was the strangest thing. And I just felt like I had this presence with me that was really comforting and very like, just, it was kind of like a,
a beautiful shadow, a shadow of some, I don't know. And I didn't feel like I was in harm's way or anything. I felt like I was, I felt really protected. So the show closes with put a little circus in your life. It's the finale song and it's a big upbeat, wonderful pyro shooting all over the place. You know, so go my dressing room, I resettle myself and then I'm rushing to see everybody. So I see everybody give the hugs and we laugh a little bit.
Afterwards, my mother, she said, listen, let's take you to the hotel. I have something to talk to you about. So we go to the hotel, see my mother like just tears, you know, just gush out of her eyes. And she tells me your father died this afternoon. The air went out of me and like I was suddenly still. I was on my bed. Everything made sense because he passed away yesterday.
During that afternoon, something left my body. And I understood who the... Then I said, that's where you were. You were with me. You were with me that whole time. Because I've never felt that feeling ever again. Looking back on that conversation, it was really the validation. It was just, it was about me as a man. That's what he was really going for. I mean, the career was set. It was like, okay, we're here, buddy. Like, you saw me in New York Times.
Singing was paying the bills, so that I knew most assuredly he was very proud of that. He was proud of the fact that I was working. I think that's, I mean, honestly, he was just proud of the fact that I had a job and I was working. And, you know, that did his immigrant heart well. Okay, he's professional. That really was a validation, like he knew. We didn't have to talk about that.
Jonathan ended up staying with Ringling Brothers for almost 20 years, right up until the show closed its curtains in 2017. Ladies and gentlemen, children of all ages, I'm a ringmaster, I'm a proud, and it has been the honor of my life to be the voice of these tremendous artists who work so hard. I'm nothing more than a glorified fan who gets paid to dress well. But even after Ringling Brothers, Jonathan didn't stop.
He worked with Omnium Circus, a disability-inclusive show, and Circus Vargas, a traveling circus that once had a big top the size of a football field. So, clap your hands. Stop your feet. I found him under a smaller big top in a Target parking lot in Long Beach. He was beaming with glee on a three-show Sunday, stepping out from behind the curtain and into the center ring. And now the world's sorry show!
Jonathan is a ringmaster to this very day, and you can find him touring up and down California.
Thank you, Jonathan Lee Iverson, for sharing your story with us. The original score for that piece was by Derek Barber. It was produced by Anna Sussman. Now in just a moment, we're getting our first big break live on TV. Stay tuned. Welcome back to Snap Judgment. My name is Tim Washington. And for our next story, we proudly present The Angry Marriage. You know what?
Wait a minute, are you really a clown? Yeah, I'm really a clown. Are you sure? After more than 40 years as a children's entertainer, our friend Charles the Clown is a man of many stories. How do you know he's a clown? He's clowny. Hello, clown. Hello, clown.
And today, he's back to bring us one from 1994, way before digital cable or streaming came on the scene. These were the days when you sit down at the kitchen table in front of that little black and white TV with the antenna to eat your Cheerios at breakfast with your favorite morning show on in the background. And for this story, Charles brought the family in to help him tell it. Snap Judgment. On this particular occasion...
I was in New York City to visit my daughter who was at school. All of a sudden we get this call from my mom. Surprise! And Linda said, we're going to be on the Today Show. What happened was that the Today Show was looking for a couple who could discuss how to handle anger if the kids are around.
Obviously, if you're married, there are going to be tense moments. What do you do if the children are there? Linda and I, Linda's my wife, had been on many TV shows because we had authored a book about kids' parties. Charles is a natural with kids. It's a gift. He really has a gift. I've handled thousands of audiences and worked with kids, and I'm a proud parent, I might add.
And we fit the profile, we think, because every family has arguments. And we had worked out ways of dealing with tense moments. My wife's an early childhood specialist. She has taught preschool. She taught parenting at the community college level. I was excited to be able to talk about child development issues. And that was a big deal.
So she said she was interested. She was interviewed by a representative from the show. And during that time, Linda was talking about all the things she understood about child development. From what they said, they wanted us to be on the show to talk about helping children handle their feelings. The woman at the other end of the phone from the Today Show was saying, yeah, that's what we want to hear about. That's what we want to talk about.
It seemed obvious that the reason they were picking us is because we had a certain amount of expertise. We were going to share that with the viewers at home. Our older daughter, Rebecca, had also been asked to be on the show.
I, little 18-year-old me, was studying psychology and wanting to kind of follow in their footsteps in a lot of ways. And so I was like, oh, I'm going to be on TV also, and I'll be able to share what I know about kids and families. I was really aware that I had two parents, two mothers.
care about what kids think and how they feel and what they need. I think I knew that it was a big deal for my parents. I could sense like how excited my parents were. We wanted the world to know. So we were on the phone all over the country to our relatives, our friends. You gotta see us. We're going to be on the Today Show. Be sure to tune in.
They put us up at the Hampshire House, which was a wonderful hotel on the south end of Central Park. It was fancier than any place we'd ever stayed. The next morning, bright and early, the limousine came.
I mean, a stretch limousine and picked us up and took us over to Radio City. I was like, whoa, whoa, this is big. We got in, out of the car, taken to the green room in the NBC television studio. They were applying makeup to us. And in walks this woman, sort of a serious look on her face, perhaps stern,
And she starts to question Linda. It's almost like an interrogation. Just a couple of brief, very specific questions. They obviously had to do with our appearance on the show. And then all of a sudden, she says, got it. And then turned and left. And we looked at each other and we couldn't figure out what in the world was this about? Next thing we know, it's time to be on the show.
We're led down the dark passageway. We're kind of excited, a little bit nervous. And there we are seated with Katie Couric. From NBC News, this is Today with Katie Couric, live from Studio 1A in Rockefeller Plaza. And welcome to Today on this Tuesday morning, everyone. I'm Katie Couric. When the show started taping, I
I have no idea what's about to happen. Today in part two of our series on marital anger, we're going to look at the effects of anger on the children. Once we were alive, we just barely sat down. Kirk had introduced us. Linda and Charles Krause have been married for 21 years and are willing to admit they've had some very stormy times. Their daughter, 18-year-old Rebecca, has witnessed many of their disagreements, and we'll ask her about that a little bit later. I just was thinking...
Oh no, something's wrong. Something is wrong here. I was shocked. I was actually shocked. I had to put it together. It took me a second to realize that the whole focus of what we're going to do was not what we'd anticipated. It did not take long for me to realize, like, whoa, this is very different than what I imagined it was going to be. And seated next to her was this other woman. It was the woman who had
briefly asked questions of Linda moments before in the dressing room. And then there she was introduced as a psychologist. Not just a psychologist, but somebody who was going to talk about us. And we'd also like to welcome back psychotherapist Bonnie Maslin, author of The Angry Marriage, Overcoming the Rage, Reclaiming the Love. Good morning to both of you. Welcome. Thank you. Nice to see you. Angry marriage, that's not what we...
Like I was thinking, oh, where's she going with this? Angry marriages? We don't have an angry marriage. What in the world is she talking about? I'm stunned. They are what I am assuming to be an angry marriage. What kind of advice would you have for them? We're on live television. This isn't a local show in L.A. or Seattle. This is the real thing, the biggest morning show in history. So here I am.
The camera's staring at me, and someone's talking about our angry marriage, and then explaining that we're there because we need help. They characterized us as having a certain kind of marriage and how to fix it by going to see this therapist who was on stage with us. And so I had...
A very horrible feeling in the pit of my stomach, which told me, uh-oh, something bad is happening. And I'm in the middle of something bad and I can't get out. I'm captive. I remember swallowing and feeling like I couldn't really speak. I mean, my body felt paralyzed. I felt just sick inside and scared because I didn't know what they were going to say next.
I was nervous for my parents, like how, what are they going to say? And very aware that this did not probably feel good to my parents. Have you all fought a lot during your 21-year marriage? From time to time. I think there are periods when you fight a lot. And so we've had periods that have been a little tense. We were very close. We communicated well.
We respected each other. We understood each other. We felt that we were compassionate towards each other. I had so much admiration for Charles and what he did. And I think that he felt the same way about me. What is really going on in this angry marriage or in any other? There is an invisible anger here, an invisible conflict. With no interviews about us, she analyzed us.
as a therapist. And the audience knew that she was a therapist. So she had this power over us. It was terrible. The whole thing was so terrible. You know, let me just talk to the Krauses if I could, and you all stand by for a moment. You all say that the major source of your disagreements...
has pretty much been finances, is that correct? The financial problems we had had vanished. This was the most secure time we'd had ever at that point, 22 years of marriage. We were happy. We were settled. A while back, we had purchased a home. We really were happy with it. It was a good time for us, really good.
I kept wondering when Katie was going to ask me about parenting skills and child development issues, which is what I thought was going to happen. Kirk began talking about we're a couple who invites the kids to watch us while we're having an argument. Your philosophy, if I understand it correctly, has been to include your children. You also actually sort of air your grievances and to go ahead and fight in front of the kids. Is that right?
Well, not exactly. That's ridiculous. We would never do anything like that. My mom was like, "Um, you know, no, not that. That's not exactly how it is." And I was like, "Yes!" When the kids were very little, we felt that it was very important to try to not argue in front of them because
I think that's pretty scary for little kids to see their mom and dad fight, especially because they think that everything might be... Is their fault. Exactly. I felt like saying, Lady, you're off the wall. You don't know what you're talking about. But I didn't. I just kept it pretty mild, mild.
And I was appropriate in what I said. I wish I could have said more, but I was like frozen. I could barely speak. You know, as the kids have gotten older, we have, you know, let them see us discuss different things, and we think that that's kind of a good role model to allow them to see us kind of working things out through discussion.
I was so upset I actually thought about storming off in front of all the viewers across America. I didn't quite know what to do. I was baffled by it. It's important not to deny that we fight sometimes, especially when the kids were younger, and try to pretend that doesn't happen. Because kids can hear that, and they know that something's going on. And we felt always that it has been important to really discuss that.
to let the kids know that we can go through a fight and then come out the other end and be stronger for them.
I was looking for the next verbal attack, in a sense, a description that was inaccurate, trying to figure out how to respond to it. But also really clear that, like, you don't then want to come across as a really angry person. It was like a chess game while we were on the air. You can't make this move, you can't make that move. Dr. Maslin, have the crosses been reasonable and appropriate in terms of
their disagreements and exposing their children to their arguments. I just felt an onslaught. I mean, I just felt kind of pummeled by what was going on. It seems to me it informed the Krauses. It let them know, "Uh-oh, we're doing something that may not be appropriate for a small child." It was as if, you know, she was throwing baseballs at us, and that's really what she was doing. Yeah, I have-- I really don't like her. I felt sad.
for my parents because I knew how exciting this was for them and how special. And I had a sense like, ooh, I don't think this is going how they want it to go. And this is not how they want to be depicted and not how I would want them to be depicted. They're talking about us and talking about us. And then they interview Rebecca. I both wanted to defend my parents. I felt protective,
I felt a little kind of in shock and not sure how to weigh what was happening. What do you think about that, Rebecca? Do you appreciate the fact that there have been times when your parents have had disagreements in front of you so you have a realistic understanding of what marriage is all about? Well, I wouldn't say that they, if they're fighting, they'll come and bring it right in front of me just so I can see. But yeah, that they acknowledge that arguing is...
a natural part of any relationship. I think I always feel protective of my children. And listening to Rebecca, I'm thinking, "She really held her own. What a great kid." So Kirk responds to her, "But I understand, Rebecca, that when you were 18 months old..." You stood between your parents when they were fighting so that they'd stop fighting. I think it can be really scary for little kids and even for older kids.
And there were probably times when I would just be, you know, take it somewhere else. This was completely a misrepresentation of what Linda had told the interviewer. No, my parents don't actually try to seek us out to argue in front of us. That's not accurate. And it was a completely different set of circumstances. They did twist that. So Kirk said, do you think...
There's going to be any negative repercussions for Rebecca or Danielle as they get married after witnessing an angry marriage? Oh my gosh, I mean, how could they ask this stupid question of, is coming in between your parents at 18 months old to stop them from arguing?
going to impact you in your marriage in later life? Like, what? Like, where is she going with that? What is her brain doing? Like, how could she see something so stupid? At that point, I was feeling kind of annoyed. Kind of felt like they were using me, kind of making a spectacle of like, oh yeah, how will this person
person be. I think that Rebecca will be well served if she can really think about what the issues might be. For example, I think this is a frightened couple. And I think when you can say that, you can really break the bond of an angry marriage and it won't be a burden that you have to carry. Man, was I upset when I started to hear that. I mean, they were not just talking about the family in general or Linda and me. They were talking about our kids. Felt like I was being used
for the narrative that they were trying to kind of spin. They'd put one of our kids on television and were telling the world that they might be screwed up because of the way they were being parented. She didn't know us. We were strangers to her. And she just had a hell of a lot of nerve and chutzpah.
Linda and Charles Krauss, I think you better spend some more time with Dr. Maslin after we go to a commercial break. Thank you so much for talking with us about something that I know is a highly personal subject. So thank you, Rebecca. The segment is about over, and Kirk is saying, by the way, not only does the psychologist have a book out about angry marriages...
But several segments, like the one we're on, are going to be packaged and sold by the Today Show.
And she actually does a commercial for this package. She says, get out your Visa card, and here's a number. It's on the bottom of your screen. By the way, we're making this series available on videocassette. For a copy, you can call 1-800-420-2626. We're going to be part of a package about angry marriage? Oh man, was I upset. Well, the segment ends.
Kirk walks us out back away from the studio. I don't know if she did that normally, but I think she could sense that we were so upset. And the second we knew that we were in private, not on the air, we started to complain loudly. Why did you do that? You tricked us.
we didn't know what you were going to say on the air. I wanted to make them feel really guilty and really bad about what they did to us because they knew it. It's not like they were innocent. They had an agenda that
They had a topic for the show that they were then going to sell as a part of a package deal with three other similar shows and on a similar topic. And after, when it was all over and my parents were...
voicing their feelings and expressing some of their anger about what happened. There was a part of me that was like, oh my God, like here they were just depicted as an angry couple and now here they are
feeling really angry. This is not good. And kind of wanting to shrink a little, just sort of like, oh, can we just go now, please? I was so upset. I didn't know whether I was about to burst into tears or scream or do something. We're going to be appearing endlessly in people's living rooms as the angry couple who were frightened. I was just thinking about
Everybody who's watching this who knows us is going to see us being made fools of on national television. I was just terribly embarrassed. We told everybody about the show. We were going to be on the Today Show. That was going to be like the feather in the cap, and they were watching us look like idiots. I couldn't help thinking as we flew back that I'd have to face everybody.
Now, the Krauses, they came home to a whirlwind of questions and had a bit of explaining to do to their family, their friends, their associates. But we're happy to report that with the help of a lawyer, Charles was able to have their segment removed from the video package. The big question remains, if they did not have an angry marriage, what kind of marriage do Linda and Charles have? Bo, in your questions to us, you asked, did we have a happy marriage? Yes.
And I think that the term happy marriage is something that comes out of magazines or self-help columns. It's not about being happy. It's about other things, the things that we mentioned. And I think that, you know, we don't have an angry marriage and we're not a frightened couple. We're just a regular couple. We have a regular marriage, a very loving marriage, a very solid and stable marriage. So that's what I wished I could have said.
Over 52 years, you know, you relax, you become loving best friends who share a family. But this really, I think, really caused us to look at how great our relationship is. That was the positive thing. Thank you to Day Show. A huge thank you to Charles, Linda, and Rebecca Krause for sharing your story with The Snap. As always...
This story is the Krause's experience and their views and opinions remain their own. You can find all things Charles the Clown, including videos, songs, magic tricks, puppet routines, and even book Charles for your next event, all at the link on our website, snapjudgment.org.
Dr. Bonnie Maslin and the Today Show did not respond to our request for comment about this story. The piece was scored by Dirk Schwarzoff, was edited by Regina Bediako, and an assessment was produced by Bo Walsh.
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