251: Rebuilding Trust During a Crisis - with Pete Pearson
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How do you rebuild trust in the midst of a crisis with your partner? And what are ways that you can strengthen yourself and how you show up in your relationship, no matter what challenges you're going through? That's what we're going to talk about on today's episode of Relationship Alive. But first, just a reminder that Relationship Alive is an offering from me to you to help you have the best possible relationships in your life.

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So that's neilsatin.com slash course. And okay, I think that's it. So let's get on with the show.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Satin. Today I want to cover how to handle crisis and conflict in your relationship. And for that conversation, we have a very special guest, a return visit from Dr. Pete Pearson. Along with his wife, Dr. Ellen Bader, Pete is co-founder of the Couples Institute, one of the leading trainers of couples therapists.

They are the co-authors of Tell Me No Lies, a book about the dynamics of honesty and lying in relationships, and also the book In Quest of the Mythical Mate, which is a book that outlines their developmental approach to working with couples in therapy.

It feels a bit like coming home having Pete here on the show because he and Ellen have been on Relationship Alive a bunch of times. Episode 24 on lying, episode 152 on communication, episode 204 on building a team and collaborating in your relationship, and episode 238 on what to do when one person in a relationship is unmotivated to change.

They also have a free training coming up that we'll talk about in a bit. But if you're interested in the free training, just visit neilsatin.com slash institute as in the Couples Institute.

And if you simply want to download the transcript of this episode, you can visit neilsatin.com slash 251 because this is episode 251. Or you can text the word passion to the number 33444 and follow the instructions. I think that's it for now. So Pete Pearson, great to have you back here on Relationship Alive. Hey, Neil, all I can say is...

It's good to be home again. Nice, nice. We're going to try and keep things lighthearted as we tackle some pretty serious subject matter. Because this is a

There may be two reasons that people come to this show. One is they are in a relationship and it's going well and they think, well, how could this be even better? Or maybe we feel a little stuck and how do we get unstuck and turn surviving into thriving at the risk of sounding a bit cliche?

And then the other thing is people who are having a really hard time. It's not to say that there aren't other reasons that people come and find the show. I know a lot of people view relationship alive as a way to prepare. They're not in a relationship, but they're preparing for the next one that comes along.

But a lot of people come because they're in the middle of a crisis. Something big has happened and they're looking for help. And often in those crisis moments, we don't know how to turn to our partners. And so we turn elsewhere. And hopefully the elsewhere that we turn to is offering us something of value that we can take back to the relationship. So what I'm hoping that we can do today is to talk a bit about how we...

If you're a couple in crisis where the trust that you have in your partner is at least in that moment shattered, how do you rebuild from that moment? How do you get started?

Neil, first of all, I want to say I hope today we can cover all those reasons why people tune in to your podcast. Awesome. I think we can cover the spectrum. Great. Let's tackle it all. The question of trust absolutely is so foundational because without trust,

you there is no future you cannot plan a future if there is no trust it's that fundamental you have to have trust in a relationship if your relationship is going to improve to grow to evolve

and become what you hope it will be. It's all based on trust. So you nailed it right out of the gate. Without trust, not much happens. Right. And so that's the conundrum in a situation like this, right? Where you...

you'd have this big safety net to catch you when you, when some big crisis moment happens. And, you know, it could be something really serious, like someone discovers an affair or like, you know, your, your partner spent all your money. Like there are those kind of like big, big,

big monumental things. But then we've all, or many of us have probably also experienced the little things that you think it starts out as just a little tiny argument. It's not going to be a big deal. And then all of a sudden, boom, things, the, everything's blown up and it feels like your relationship is in jeopardy. And so those are the moments where you want to have a big safety net of trust. And yet those are the moments where you feel it the least in relation to your partner. Yeah.

You're absolutely correct. And when you talk about big things, they can either be internal to the couple, you know, finances or whatever.

or they can be external like in California, wildfires are all over the place. So, people are being devastated through fire, floods, earthquakes in California, so external medical emergencies. Right, right. So, a lot of things can be enormously disruptive to a relationship. And what I think is that if couples are going to make a change or improve their relationship,

There are three basic avenues that are catalysts for a change in a relationship. And one is desperation. And that's the crisis that shows up. That's unpredictable, can't be foreseen, but it has an earthquake-like effect on the relationship. When that happens, interestingly enough, a lot of couples start pulling together like a team.

Here comes a fire and you don't know if the fire is going to be at your house in 20 minutes or an hour, but all of a sudden you start communicating like champions with each other. Who's going to do what by when and you count on the other person following through with their part of how we're going to get out of here with as much as we can. So couples often in a crisis

will start communicating like champions. They don't have to look up, get communication strategies, they just do it because it's demanded and they respond.

The problem is, though, after the crisis has passed, they often go back to their normal set point about how things were. And that's the downside of having a crisis be the catalyst. The second catalyst for improvement is through negotiation. Honey, I'll do this if you do that. And that works well.

Until somebody says, you're not holding up your end of the bargain. And they say, yes, I am. But you aren't doing yours. And now they're getting to all kinds of subjective stuff about what the agreement was. You know, what does it mean to follow through? So negotiation can work if it's not really complex.

So that's the second. We have desperation, we have negotiation, and the third way that couples can change is through inspiration. And that's what pulls us forward. Couples will come in and they will say, "Well, how do we fix this?" or "How do we solve that?" or "What do we do about this?" In other words, help us solve the problem. Here's what I have discovered.

Solving problems brings relief, but it doesn't bring happiness. You get a lot of relief from solving problem, but solving problems is not generative. It's not creative. It's not future focused. Solving problems is looking backwards over what's happened, how do we fix it? Or this is what's going on now, how do we fix it? Inspiration pulls us forward.

Into reaching for our higher selves, working together as a team, bringing out the best in each other. So I have a lot of appreciation for solving problems. I just realized that it's limited. Yeah. And I do want to mention that in our last conversation, which was back in episode 238, um,

How do you remember this? I have it on the screen in front of me. I'm cheating. But, um, we, we, our focus of our conversation was on unmotivated partners, but we did spend some time talking about developing a vision and, um, and, and how to, how to bring that future focus in. So, um, so I want to mention that to all of you. Um, if you're listening and you're like, I want more of that, um,

definitely check out episode 238. And I think that's so important because, uh,

even if you are focused on solving the problems, because I can, I can see that tension in a couple, right? Where they, they would come in to see you for instance, and, and you'd get them all excited about the future, but then they go home and then they're still faced with the same goddamn problem. And they're like, well, I want to be focused on the future, but I don't trust that you are actually going to do that with me because here we are in this same dynamic of,

That we're always in. And it's those perpetual dynamics that often are the things that eventually blow up because they've been there since the beginning. And maybe it was even a source of strength or amusement at first, but then it becomes that thing that you hate in the other person. Yeah. Listen, I tell you what, you're right. They will go back.

and they will fall back into that gravitational pull of old habits, triggering each other's sensitivities, and then either disengaging or have a whopper of an argument. However, however, there are two ways that you could start rebuilding trust immediately, just in case you happen to be impatient.

There are two ways that will build the foundation of trust starting today if you can pull it off. And it's not easy because to really pull off trust requires two things. One is behavioral, that's the first category, which is to do what you say you are going to do in a timely way.

And if you can't do it in a timely way, tell your partner. You need to renegotiate either what you do or when it's delivered. But if you don't follow through with what you say you're going to do, not much is going to happen beyond that. You just won't have trust. You can't trust your partner. And you don't build a future if you can't trust they will follow through.

It's huge and that's just a behavioral thing. And you can't blame somebody else really if you don't do what you say you're gonna do, that's on you. So number one is behavioral, follow through

With what you say you're going to do. That's kind of a non-negotiable aspect of rebuilding trust or strengthening it. Can I make an addition to that even? Yeah. Because it occurs to me that, yes, it's important to do what you say you're going to do. And another aspect of that is to actually...

say what you're going to do. Like so many couples live in, in this sort of silence of assumptions with each other and expectations without ever explicitly saying, this is what either, this is what I'm expecting from you, or this is, this is how I intend to show up. So now I've, I've said something and now I do have to live up to it. Um, and I guess the, the,

Maybe most challenging example of that is when someone just kind of takes off or abandons with no intention of truly abandoning the relationship, but they, you know, they have to get out of there for whatever reason, probably because they're experiencing a lot of emotional overwhelm, but without creating safety for their partner by saying, oh, I need some space right now. Like that's, that's one example. Listen, I tell you what, I'm really glad you mentioned that, Neil, about...

say what you're going to do it's a little bit like a football team calling a play before they run it right yeah totally it really helps if you know what the other players on the team are going to do and then follow through and actually if you say it probably gives you a little extra impetus to follow through as well uh and it keeps your partner in the loop yeah which is crucial for teamwork i'm

I'm hung up on this question. So I'll make sure that we come back to the second immediate way of building trust, because I know everyone's curious. What's number two? What about what is it? What do you think it is that makes it so hard for people to trust?

to sometimes be reflective and see the ways that they're, that they're not, that they failed to say what they were going to do. Or I'm, it's, it's emerging at this point in the conversation because I'm thinking about those times where it's,

Usually when there's a miscommunication, I mean, with everything, it goes both ways, right? Like we've spoken before in the show about lying and how when you have one person who lies, it's easy to like point the finger at that person and say, you know, you shouldn't be lying.

But we often ignore the fact that the other person may have created an atmosphere that makes it nearly impossible to tell the truth without being unsafe, without feeling unsafe or like you're being punished. So it's an example of this two way street.

But that can happen in the most simple of communications too, you know, where it's like, well, I didn't know what you were going to do. I didn't know you were going to go pick up the groceries. And so you just were gone and I got super frustrated. And it's really easy then to turn to the person and be like, why didn't you tell me you were going to go get the groceries? I'm just making this example up. But listen, it goes to the point of what you mentioned earlier about

Tell say to your partner what you're going to do. Good teams always are communicating back and forth their intention, their progress. You know, if you need help on something, they're always communicating that. Right. So what about the person who was left wondering if,

Didn't they also have some responsibility since they didn't know what the person was up to, to reach out and say, hey, like, where are you? Are are you? Well, listen, here's here's what it is. It takes an upfront discussion talking about these patterns that you're describing.

Like would it be better if we tell each other dot, dot, dot? If somebody forgets, how about we ask instead of getting angry about you should have dot, dot, dot, dot. Right. So, let's both take some responsibility to keep each other apprised of what's going on. And couples lead really complex lives anymore and so it requires a level of communication

like a bomb detonation squad you know they got right i thought you were on the red wire i'm gonna cut the blue wire now brace yourself so if you're working with a couple and it's clear that one person who is maybe the obvious let's just say the obvious screw up like yeah i i'd

I messed up in this situation and they're, they're actually doing a good job of, of taking responsibility. But the other person, instead of stepping into the void and also talking about their own responsibility, they're, they're more interested in, in like punishing the other person or having them. That's absolutely true. And that happens. And so here's what I do. I step back and let's say, we're going to now talk about a bigger picture here.

about do you guys really want to create a team, you know, an effective team? Are both of you interested in creating an effective team? And then I'll ask them each what their idea of a team is and then I'll give them my definition of a team and what it means.

But we have to have a meta discussion about teamwork instead of trying to just jump in and solve the problem. We need to talk about what each of them mean by a team and what each of them has to contribute in a reliable way as a team member. So then it gets me out of the middle for trying to fix one person who's not doing their part because now it becomes more collaboration. We're creating a team.

Yeah, I got that. That's great. And what's that in your experience? What's that like for the person who finally gets it? Like, oh,

Oh, you're telling me that I have to take some responsibility here too. I'll put it this way. I say, no, you don't have to take any responsibility at all. Actually, you don't have to change a darn thing. Actually, you don't even have to be a better version of your current self. So let's talk about that. Can you persuade your partner to accept you the way you are and

while you make demands on them and you have no desire to become a better version of your present self. Do you think you can talk your partner into that deal? And how many of them say yes? Well, see, here's the one thing that absolutely when I get this message from a couple either directly or indirectly, either one or both people,

that I know this marriage is headed for a gargantuan struggle. And it all comes down to one statement that allows me to predict the magnitude of the struggle in front of them. And that one statement is this: on any given problem, if one or both partners say directly or indirectly, why should I have to change?

Now, when they say, why should I have to change? It's not really a question they're looking for an answer to. They're making a declaration, which is don't try to get me to budge in this area. I've already budged as much as I'm going to. I'm tired of budging. I ain't going to budge.

Well, that makes progress in the area that we're discussing come to a grinding halt. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and in a situation like that, I mean, I'm sure it depends on the individual circumstances, but I wonder, do you see that as more of a, like a lack of kind of resourcing that that person who's saying that they actually need something to

To be able to come to the table in that way. Do you know what I mean? Well, here's how I think about it. I'm going to give you kind of an indirect answer. Anytime somebody says the most...

Common question that couples will ask as soon as they get an insight or awareness or additional clarification of a problem, almost always the next thing they say to me is, "Well, what do we do about it?" Or, "How do I fix it?" Or, "How do we fix it?" That's almost always the next thing they say. And I say, "That's a really good question, but it's premature."

that before we talk about it, because I used to launch into, okay, well, here's how you deal with it. And then they would quickly start giving me evidence why they shouldn't have to follow my expert, wonderful, inspirational advice. And then we'd all be frustrated. I say, it's a good question. What do we do about it? It's premature.

A better question is how motivated are you to do something about it? What's your level of motivation? What would be your reason for wanting to do something about it? And I'll say a common phrase is the longest journey starts with - The first step, right? Yeah. The longest journey starts with the first step. And I say that's not entirely accurate.

The longest journey starts with a big desire to be somewhere else because if you don't have a desire to be somewhere else, you don't take that first step. And after the third step, if you don't have a strong desire, you quit and go back home. Yeah, yeah. So, we're going to talk about why it's important to break this pattern. Why do you care about breaking this pattern?

And that precedes because purpose precedes the what. The why precedes the how. And so we're going to talk about your motivation for making this change first before we launch into what do we do about it? How do you distinguish between changes that are maybe required for the health of a relationship?

That either person might identify within themselves or more likely identify within their partner, right? Like you have to change this in order for this to continue. That's normal. And that's great. Like we have these people who get to reflect our best and our worst aspects of ourselves back to us. But how do you distinguish between that and

And the kind of change that maybe you don't want to ask for. Because there's a balance there between like, well, if I don't actually like this person as they are, if my reason for being here is my hope for them to be different than how they are, then that's... So here's what I think. Yeah, go ahead. You can ask for any darn change you want in your partner if, here's the big if, you can ask for any change you want...

if you help your partner, if you make it easier for your partner to make the change.

And give them compelling reasons why it's not going to be their loss and your gain if they make it, but why both of you will be better off. And here's what you're going to do to help support the change you want to see. The problem is we want change, but we don't support the change we want to see. And then we complain that our partner is insensitive. And how do you contrast that? Like showing up to help the change from, um,

maybe a more codependent or enmeshed approach where you're doing everything you can to help your partner change. - The codependent people don't make it clear. They don't say, I would like you to do X and here's what I'm gonna do to help make it happen. Here's how you're gonna benefit, here's how I'm gonna benefit. And it's gonna start with, do you even, is there a part of you that even agrees that you would be interested in making this change?

So that's where it starts. It doesn't just, you just don't offload. Right. It starts with a more comprehensive perspective. Got it. Got it. Well, this might be a good time to mention that just as a reminder that you and your wife, Ellen,

Ellen Bader are the founders of the Couples Institute and also the founders of the developmental theory of how couples unfold. And you offer a training for therapists that takes them through this developmental model and how to apply it to couples. And I think what we're talking about in this moment is that bridge between...

like unhealthy differentiation and healthy differentiation, right? It's, it's, it's being able to, to actually take responsibility for yourself, to allow your partner to take responsibility for themselves and to be able to communicate clearly about it. And without things going down into the weeds or getting personal or destructive. Now I will give you what an, what an entry into giving you,

three steps for how to communicate more effectively that builds trust to create a more inspiring future. Okay. So, if you want to start building trust right away and you can take the three things I'm talking about and apply them to either a disagreement, a conflict, an irritation,

Or you can use these same steps to talk about hopes and dreams and goals and how you want to create a better life together and or individually. So the first step, if I'll just say if my wife has a complaint about me.

My first step is, first of all, it requires a little self-restraint or in my case, a lot. So that I would have to rein in my desire to explain, justify, make excuses or cross-complain or say, well, what about, what about, what about?

I have to do self-restraint, all these reactions that either come from bad habits, from the lizard brain that just wants its own way, that kind of selfish three-year-old that we have within us that gets tired and cranky and we just want what we want when we want it. So, we have to exercise some restraint.

If Ellen says, "Pete, you are fill in the blank which is you're a slob, you just leave too much clutter around the house, etc., etc. I'm tired of picking up after you." Now, my old response would be, "Well, I don't want to live in a museum." And then she would say, "Well, I mean, you could see where that discussion would go, right?"

So, now I have to say number one, the first thing after restraint is to become curious. I have to ask her more questions and really be curious.

about what she thinks or feels when the problem shows up, why it's a problem, how big of a problem it is, what happens if it doesn't get addressed, what might happen if it does, what does it represent to her if I'm a slob and after she keeps telling me to pick up and I don't do much. I have to be curious and the way to be curious is you can't do it without self-restraint.

So, number one, there's a part of Ellen that if she hears me be curious, she knows and like anybody knows, if your spouse is curious when they kind of feel like they're backed in a corner, you start generating some respect from your spouse because you're asking questions instead of defending. That's number one, curiosity.

Number two is caring about the responses you get. So, you can ask questions, but if you don't really care about the responses, that's going to come across and your partner is just going to think you're being selfish, you know, and you really don't care. But if you start doing this, and this is hard to do.

If you recap the content of what you're hearing, so let me see if I got this right, Ellen. I come home, I put my books all over the table, I have, you know, pens and devices that are all over, my shoes are here and I've dropped my clothes there. It really is a problem for you. That's the content.

Now, if Ellen is really going to be a feel understood, I now have to recap the emotions that go with the content. So, it makes you feel like discounted, marginalized, unimportant.

It makes you feel like I don't even care about you, that I'm always elevating my priorities above yours. You end up feeling alone in this marriage, da-da-da-da-da-da, and marginalized, and then you're caught in a terrible dilemma. Either you remind me and you're a nag or you say nothing and you suffer.

And that kind of suffering in that dilemma is a horrible dilemma to be in. So I am recapping the content of what she's saying, but also the emotions. When you can recap the content and emotions back to what your partner is experiencing, they will believe that number one, you really understand. Number two is,

they know it's not easy for you to be curious and caring about the responses. That starts building trust in the relationship. They start to believe that you're willing to take one for the team to put "we" in front of "me" because you want to understand the bigger picture of what's going on. When a person who initiates the complaint or problem

And they know that you are going to ask questions and be curious. You develop a level of trust. And if you couple that with doing what you say you're going to do and say what you're going to do, now you can start developing trust when it goes both ways. But you got to alternate back and forth on this.

You start to develop trust slowly, but you're creating strong building blocks for trust in this marriage. So much so that you might even risk expressing your dreams, your hopes, what you would like, what you don't like, that otherwise are really elusive, that never get brought to the light of day. And then you struggle in your individual silos.

and wonder what happened to our relationship. Well, the first part of the relationship, both people when they're in the enchantment stage, they're really curious about the other person. They want to know everything and they don't judge the responses. Well, over time you start building up a bad habits with each other. So it's harder to restrain those reflexes from bad habits, getting triggered yourself. But if you can do it,

You start building trust right away. Yeah. So is that the second piece when you were saying before? Yeah. So it's curiosity. It's caring. So we have behavior, then communication. Communication comes in curiosity, caring. And then the third step, which is action, if it's necessary to take some action steps. And you don't have to look for the perfect solution. Just take action steps that seem to make sense.

An improvement or progress. Don't look for the whole solution. Just look for action steps that make for an improvement if that's what's required. Sometimes people just want to be understood. You don't have to do any action. I just want you to know how I feel and that you care about it.

So it's curiosity, caring, and then action steps if they're relevant. That's how you start developing and building and sustaining trust for the future and the present. Pete, we need to take just a quick break from our conversation to talk about this week's sponsors. And each of them has a special offer for you as a Relationship Alive listener.

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And now let's dive back into our conversation with Pete Pearson. So after you've explained to Ellen...

After you've gotten curious and you've really heard her and reflected back the content as well as the emotional context, and you've even at that point talked about some action steps that you want to take, and maybe even a few days have gone by and she's seen that you've managed to always move your pens from the kitchen table back to the mug where the pens go, etc. How would you...

How would you bring things back around? Because, again, there's the two-way street thing. So undoubtedly, there's something about Ellen and her desire for neatness that also maybe is a little problematic for you.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You made a key phrase. Ellen has seen me over a few days put things away, be nice. Ellen has to do more than see it. She has to comment on it. She has to say, "Oh, I've noticed and I noticed that you are doing dot, dot, dot."

When you do that, it tells me you care about me even if I'm not around, that you remember our conversations, you remember that what I say is important to you. If she doesn't communicate that, then you know, it's like winking at somebody in the dark and you don't get credit for your positive intentions. So, it's so important for the person to express

that they notice and appreciate and why when they see improvements in their partner. Keeping it to yourself, forget it. Don't be like the guy who said, "I loved my wife so much

That I almost told her. All right. Now, I'm not going to let Ellen off the hook. However, here in Maine, people can be kind of abrupt and direct. And it's something that I love about the culture here, although there are times where it's infuriating. But a phrase that I've heard frequently from partners is,

is something like why should I have to shine your ass about that like you you're doing things you should be doing anyway you want me to appreciate you for that you like like where that becomes almost a cudgel like that desire to be appreciated or recognized or to have the or to have it be seen that you're actually making effort toward changing have you and I would say guess what

Don't shine his ass. Don't express appreciation. And when you catch yourself doing things for your partner and you've gone out of your way to do something because you think it will make them happier or make the day go a little easier for them and you've gone out of your way and you've done it and they just give you a blank look and say nothing.

How often are you going to continue doing things going out of your way when the response you get back is zilch? Starting to see a pattern here, Pete. This like how important it is for people to really reflect on how they would feel. Were they treating their partner the way that they their partners treating them?

Or if or how what it would feel like to be on the receiving end of how they are treating their partner. And here's part two of why it's important. It's not just about shining your partner's ass. It's about telling your partner what's important to you.

by saying when you do x i really appreciate it now if you think or believe that you can create a relationship that flourishes without ever telling your partner what's important to you well good luck all i can say is yeah that's right keep it to yourself whatever your whatever is important to you don't tell your partner and then

Hope that telepathy is a good form of communication. Well, our consciousnesses are all evolving, right? Or something like that. That's right. It's funny because, I mean, how often does that come up too in a, where you hear about someone doing all kinds of things for their partner and

that their partner actually really couldn't care less about. And they, they have like a mismatch or a miscommunication around there where it would be so much better if they were talking about what they really wanted and getting what they really wanted versus. At some point it's important to express it. Although then we go into the little lecture about love languages and about what is meaningful to one person that's,

not so meaningful to another. Ellen loves, her love language is behavior. Just do things. You don't have to tell me I'm great. Just go out and pick up after yourself. I am, I like words of affirmation. Tell me I'm wonderful. So what do we do? We give the language that we want to our partner. I go around telling Ellen she's great. She goes around the house picking everything up and we're missing each other.

So getting back to Ellen, and it feels a little unfair because she's not in the room, but maybe this is perfect because we can imagine that we were having this conversation, Pete, and you came to me and you said, Ellen and I, we had this big conversation. I've been picking up my pens. I'm really trying to pay attention to this. And I'm not perfect, but I really, I don't know how to talk to her about the impact she has on me.

- Perfect, Neil, perfect. So you know what I'd say to Ellen? Ellen, I wanna talk about a problem that I'm having and I hope that you can be curious and caring in this discussion.

So, I hope that you can respond with curiosity and care about my answers and then we'll talk about whatever I trigger in you out of this discussion afterwards but we can take turns. Will you start because right now I got to get some stuff off my chest and it would help a lot if you could just become curious and caring.

Yeah. Yeah. So you got to be clear with what you want. Right. It's a great example of how to be direct. And also what I hear and what you just said is that you're asking, you are asking for permission. Like, hey, I would like to do this. Are you willing to show up in this way? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's simple, but not easy. So yeah.

For you listening, I'm throwing a lot at Pete and you're probably hearing that he often knows exactly or has some pretty good ideas about what to say in a particular situation. And I do want to mention that Alan and he are offering a free webinar series that's geared mostly towards therapists.

Are you calling it? What do you say when is that? Yeah, that's right. Neil, way to go. Thinking. Oh, here it is. Thinking, develop me. Thinking, developmentally, what do you say when? And it covers things like, what do you say when a narcissistic client criticizes or dominates the sessions that you're having? Or what do you say when an angry couple wants to just rehash a huge fight that they have over and over?

Or what do you do when someone's, what do you say when someone's past trauma resurfaces in a session? How do you handle that? So there are all these kind of potential problem spots that could come up in a session. And the goal for this free series is for you to be much better prepared on how to handle those situations. Am I getting it right, Pete?

You got, I mean, you nailed it right there. September 10th, I think. And if they go to, how about this? Actually, I have a link. I have a link for them. So I'll. Oh, good. Couplesinstitute.com slash nsatin. Oh, yeah. Perfect. You can do that or you can go to neilsatin.com slash institute.

Either one, either one will get you there. And, uh, and that way, um, you can sign up for the free training and, um,

And then you can, you'll also be finding out more about the, the big training that Ellen and Pete offer for couples therapists. And I've actually heard from many therapists that have gone through your course and said how, what a positive impact it had on them and their own relationships, of course, and the work that they're doing with our clients. So it's, it's really powerful stuff. As you, as you're probably hearing right now in our, in our conversation. Yeah.

Pete, I'm wondering, we talked a bit about inspiration. We've talked a bit about negotiation.

I'm curious about those moments of desperation where things really feel like you don't know if your relationship is going to, this could be it. This could be the end. What advice do you give to a couple? And then we might even think about like a therapist who's holding space for that couple, but to help them, um,

navigate that moment because I'm guessing that that probably isn't the right moment to make any big decisions about your relationship. The two worst times to make a big decision about your relationship is when you're feeling really, really good or really, really bad. Yeah.

Well, we know that when you're feeling really, really good, that's probably when a lot of babies get conceived. So, I'm going to reserve judgment on that one. But yeah, they're really, really bad. So, how... What...

What do you suggest for someone to navigate a moment like that? If they can recognize, if they can at least recognize this is something huge, I'm feeling like the, that those warning signs flashing of like, I got to get out of here or I don't know if I can take this anymore or I'm hearing that from my partner. How,

How do you get through those moments so that you have a chance to get to the other side? First of all, it depends if I'm working with them or if they're just having this conversation on their own. Right. So if they're listening to us right now, let's start there. I would say, look, if you're at that place, you need this. I would say, honey, I got some really serious things to talk about. Is this a good time?

So first of all, you make sure it's a good time that your partner is going to be available to speak and or listen. And then you say, look, what I want to cover, it's not easy because I'm feeling really desperate in this marriage.

And I don't like feeling this desperate that something has to give and I don't want to just say I quit without us talking about it or giving us a chance to do something different. So what I would like to do, if you're willing, I want to talk about my distresses, the pain, kind of the hopeless that I've been feeling. But if you can do this,

it would help a lot if you could just ask me questions to help for clarification and recap what I'm hearing. If we can slow this conversation down so that you can hear what I'm saying, recap the content and hopefully even some of the emotions, and then I'll switch and do the same for you. But it's not going to be easy for us to do this because we have a history of triggering each other so quickly.

And if we can't get through it, maybe we need to talk to somebody to help guide us through this. But I'm willing to give it a shot on our own first. It's not going to be easy for you to listen to me and ask more questions. I'll do my best to talk to you without blaming you, but make it descriptive. But I know it's going to still come out blaming anyway. And if it's more than you can handle at any given point in this discussion, tell me.

And I'll do my best to find a way of either expressing it differently, more effectively, more considerately. But we got to have this discussion or I'm afraid this marriage is just headed into the abyss. If you can do that, I'm willing to then change roles and listen to you and do my best to listen with generosity and kindness. It's going to take courage for both of us to have this discussion.

And by courage, I mean the judgment that something is more important than our defensiveness. The judgment that something is more important than having my story heard first. And that's not easy to do. That takes courage and restraint. But if you can do it, I would really love to have this discussion with you.

That's a lot. That is a lot. Right. Yeah. But you can't take a really serious topic seriously.

approach it with one or two things that are going to make it better. It really takes a lot of discussions and it's going to take more than this discussion to get things out and talk them through. Yeah. And, and so how I think, I feel like I heard a lot in what you were saying of what you might offer as a therapist, holding space for the couple in terms of guiding them into that conversation, words like courage and, and, and,

Kind of illustrating the process so that they knew they were each going to get a turn. Are there other things that you would add as like if they were coming in presenting? I would say we're not going to make a decision. We're going to explore. So don't enter into this like it's a problem solving discussion.

There's too many facets here that need to be understood and addressed. So, don't think about it like we have to solve this problem, it's more complex than that. Yeah. So, it's going to take a lot of discussion to explore the pain and the hopes.

Yeah, good point. Always bringing the inspiration back in as well. Right. Yeah, and just like a quick kind of detail on that. I think anytime one person in a couple says something like this, we're headed toward an abyss or like I'm having a hard time staying in this relationship the way it is, it's going to be really easy for that to trigger the abandonment fear of the other person. Totally.

So, yeah, is there anything specific that you like to offer as a way to counteract that that abandonment fear being triggered for the other person? No, I can't counteract. I can give them I could say, look, as we talk about this and the stuff that we're going to be talking about is really hard. But between now and next time we meet, I'm going to give you guys a homework assignment.

I'm going to give you two things. One is every day, I want each of you to express something to your partner that you love, value and appreciate about who they are or what they do or how they contribute. Because I think there needs to be some positive cushion to let your partner know that you see them more than just a frustrating need

inhibiting object, that there are also some other things that you value and appreciate about them. So, every day find a way in your partner's love language to communicate that you do love, value, appreciate or respect about them and that helps create a cushion for the tough stuff we're going to talk about. The second thing is we can have this discussion in here too as a way of balancing out.

the pain that you're going to be talking about. I'd like to know something about the strengths that you have too and not have them get brushed away. So, what we're going to talk, I want you to, each of you to say here are three things that my partner does better than I do and here's why I value them.

So, each of you are going to name three things that your partner does better than you do and why you value because it's not just solving the pain. You're going to start to learn to bring out the best in each other, how to build on strengths that each of you have. So, it can't be just coming in here complaining about your partner. We have to look at a total picture.

And those are two examples. And the second thing that I want each of you to do, and I'll just send you some emails to remind you to do it, but I don't want you to get overloaded, but hopefully every day, each of you can do something that you feel proud of doing.

Because you need a high self-esteem to go through this. So, it could be I skipped a second dessert or I just skipped dessert or I went - I got some exercise or I tackle this thing that I've been postponing doing. But each day do something that you feel proud of.

to help build up your self-esteem because talking about all these problems, you're going to feel like your self-esteem is being shredded. And I don't want you to have just that be the total focus in here, that there are things that you do appreciate about each other, there are things that you appreciate about yourself.

We have to look in a total picture here, not just the problems. Yeah. And I sometimes feel like that is perhaps the most challenging thing about someone being willing to look at their own actions and accept responsibility for them is having to face

the shame or the remorse or whatever it is. Like those are hard feelings. Oh my gosh. And, and so I like this. It almost feels like biohacking in a way, like do something you feel proud of as a way to generate those, the feeling, feeling good about yourself when you're, when you're faced with ways that maybe you have messed up or could have done better. Let's just say. Exactly. You're spot on. Yeah.

Pete, we have a minute or two before we need to go. Are you still doing okay on time on your end? Yeah. Great. I'm wondering if we could maybe leave by touching a little bit more on the strengths that you were just mentioning. And

Because that is, I think, a great way for couples to get to know each other better and to really mine the things that they can appreciate about each other. And before we started recording, you were telling me a little bit about an exercise to help people.

hone in on what their strengths are, what their values are. And I'm wondering if you could just walk us through that together. Well, here's a, here's, here's a quick one, which is I asked couples, I would say, get a sheet of paper and write down three people that you look up to that you respect and

They could be living or dead, fictional, non-fictional, somebody you know or don't know, but just put down three people that you look up to and/or respect and feel good about. In a sense, they're kind of like heroes of yours. But

But they really go, "Gosh, I really admire that person", you know? And then after you list three, next to each person list three qualities or traits. Why do you admire them? You like their integrity, their honesty, their dedication, their humanity, their ethics, their sense of humor, their joy of living. What is it that you admire about all three of these people?

And so, now you have nine qualities, three people with three admirable qualities about each one. Then look at those nine qualities and see if you can pick out two or three that seem to connect those nine attributes. And after they do that, I say, "I think what you have just identified is a key value of yours, things that you appreciate and respect in life."

And people go, "Well, that's really true." And I'll say, "What is it important about those values that you care about? Why do you care so much about those? How important is it that - " Because in a sense, these values that you've identified can be like your moral north star about how you aspire to be, especially how you aspire to be when things get really tough.

Because this is what pulls us through is how do we aspire to be instead of complain about the circumstances? And then I'll say we can use this now in a very particular way. Think about a tough situation that you have with your partner, that's kind of a repeating argument. And you've done your best to convince, persuade, influence your partner to change and stubborn as they are, they're not doing it.

So, now we're going to look at what you can control which is your reaction, how you could be different if you're willing to explore that just in this thought experiment. So, think about in this tough situation with your partner, how you aspire to be if you're coming from your higher self.

And if you were coming from your higher self, what would that be like for you? What would the benefits of that be? Not just for you but maybe for the relationship if you could actually come from your higher self in that situation. And then I want you to imagine really clearly being that way in this situation or this discussion. And then I want you to say to yourself, "I can be this way because..."

See, just having a picture of how you aspire to be is kind of like an aspiration or an affirmation about I can do that but I'm going to give you now how you can go from an affirmation to a confirmation. I can actually be this way because... And now you give the supportive evidence why you can actually pull it off.

And it becomes more believable then. I love that. Yeah. And I suppose if for some reason in that moment you were struggling, I can be this way because, and you're like, oh, I'm not really sure I could be this way. Then that maybe illuminates like, okay, I guess I could learn a little bit more in this area to be that way. So it would help you identify yourself.

places of growth and and find the find the support create the sport i'll just give you i'll give you a literal example the other day i i when i go jogging i don't like to jog very much but i found out if i jog backwards uh it's exhausting it's like running uphill in soft sand in two minutes you get like 20 minutes worth of regular jogging if you do it backwards

And so, I have a period of time that I set and I say I try to get to the finish in two minutes. God, have I been struggling to make it happen in two minutes. It's usually two minutes and 10 seconds, two minutes and 15 and when I cross it, get to the stop sign, I'm going like that. Well, the other day I said, I'm going to apply this.

to jogging backwards. So I started off and I just said to myself, I can do this in two minutes. I'm strong, I'm getting stronger, I am in condition, I can do this because I've done other things in my life that were hard. I've struggled and overcome other challenging physical things in my life. And I just kept saying that for two minutes while I was jogging backwards. I can do this because I know how to do it. I'm dedicated, I'm motivated.

I actually shaved 12 seconds off my best time just by going through that exercise and it astounded me. Wow. And I wasn't ready to collapse either at the end. It surprised the hell out of me. Wow. Wow. That's awesome.

Yeah, well, first, please tell me you're jogging backwards with a helmet on or something. I just want to know you're okay, Peter. It's kind of a...

Parking lot where people park on and like to play tennis and it's like 6:30 in the morning, there's not traffic, there's kind of like a straight shot down this long lane of parked cars. So, I do it backwards and I've done it backwards and hit shit before and it's not pleasant.

Oh my God. You're also reminding me, I've been taking voice lessons recently. And one thing my voice instructor said to me was that you should always start singing. You should, you should sing a note assuming that you're like with confidence, like you're going to hit that note so that, you know, even if you don't like you are, you're allowing everything within you to marshal itself and,

for that particular note. And it sounds very familiar to what you were just describing that you... That's really great because what you're doing when you say I'm going to approach it with confidence, you are really using a different region of your brain than if you approach it with anxiety or trepidation. Yeah, so true. Well, hopefully this conversation is inspiring you to

to approach your relationship with a bit more confidence, even in a moment of crisis. And those moments aren't easy. I know that sometimes it can sound like we got all the right words to say and that can make it sound like it's easy, but it's not easy. And it's okay. You don't have to pretend you're not suffering anymore.

But hopefully these ideas that you can use in the moment or some of these exercises like the one that Pete just described around identifying your heroes and their qualities and your own values, those are things you can do to boost your confidence around your relational health.

And, and Pete, I just want to thank you as well for being so generous with your time and your insight. And this is the first interview I've actually done in quite a while.

And I'm feeling personally just like a lot more connected to why I even do this, having this conversation with you. So thank you for that. Hey, Neil, it may have been a while since you've done it, but you haven't lost a step. It's always good to be with you, Neil. Thank you. Thank you. If you want to download a transcript of this episode, you can visit neilsatin.com slash transcript.

as in episode 251, if you can believe that. You can always text the word passion to the number 33444 and follow the instructions to also get the transcript. And if you are interested in the free training that Pete and Ellen are offering, you just visit neilsatin.com slash institute, and that will take you right to the page that you need to be at to sign up.

And, uh, and get that's good. Actually, that's really easy for me because Ellen's doing most of the work. Perfect. We're getting a lot of insight into how your relationship works on this show, Pete. So thanks for that. It's, it's lifting the veil. We get to see the magic behind the curtain. Thank you, Neil. Thank you so much.

Thank you for listening to another episode of Relationship Alive. If you like what you've heard and want to make it easier for other people to find out about us, please take a moment to subscribe to our podcast and to rate and review us on iTunes. If you have questions or comments or want to continue the conversation, you can always join our Relationship Alive community Facebook group.

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Finally, do you have a burning question that you're hoping we can have answered here on Relationship Alive, either for a future or past guest? Let me know and I'll see what I can do. Take care and see you next time.