Ep 458: Healthy Relationships With Money: A Psychologist Tells All
50:23 Share

You're listening to an Airwave Media Podcast. Hey everyone, it's Jean Chatzky. Thank you so much for joining me today on Her Money at the start of the new year, a fresh calendar page. That also means it's a really good time to think about making some changes in our lives if we need them. And by the way, who doesn't? I gotta say, according to some recent data, some of us really are

in need of a change. A study by Wells Fargo showed that when it comes to our finances, 42% of Americans say they're not able to live within their means. And another quarter say they're in poor financial shape, which to me says maybe 2025 is the year that we get serious about building some financial stability, financial resilience, a healthier relationship with our

money overall. But here's the thing. Sometimes money is not just math. Often money is not just math. There are

typically, I think, some undiscovered, sometimes hidden reasons why many of us would rather not look at the statements that reflect our holiday spending, why we loan money to friends when we really can't afford to do that, why we don't save more, why we don't invest at all. There are so many things that we

do or don't do that leave us feeling stressed out about our finances. And it's really only once we dig in and start to understand the psychological and emotional reasons behind why we do what we do that we can start to change our behavior in a way that

That actually sticks. We have seen this over and over again in our finance fix course. One of the things that we do in that course is take a dive into your money story. We unpack your money history, which is basically the way you were raised. It's not not necessarily what you were taught, but really what you absorbed in your home life.

of origin, and once you understand that those elements still have a hold on you, no matter how old you are, then you can start to change course and finally start using your money as the tool it is to support the life you want. But it all starts with trying to establish a healthy relationship with your money.

Matt Lundquist is a Columbia University trained psychotherapist. He is the founder of Tribeca Therapy in New York City, and he says that money is one of the biggest issues for his clients in his practice. He is with us today to dig into money.

our money issues, your money issues, and walk us through the steps that we can take to try to make this the year that we really improve our relationships with money once and for all. Matt, welcome.

So nice to be here, Jean. Thanks for having me. Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you, too. I'm curious how you became sort of the go-to psychotherapist for money issues. You've really developed an expertise and a reputation in this area. Sure. Well, thank you. That's very flattering. I think New York City is a big place. I think there's probably lots of folks who do this work. But I think

I think it has emerged, we often say as therapists, our specialization, sometimes we pick them and sometimes they pick us. And one of the things I found early in my career was that

that money was something that people, as you certainly know, often really don't like to talk about. It's sort of up there with sex and death and some of these other kind of taboo subjects that people really avoid even in therapy. But one of the questions we grapple with as therapists, is it my maybe reluctance to go there as a therapist because of perhaps my own insecurities, my own kind of uncomfortable feelings about this? Or is it in fact the client or the patient's reluctance

And I think feeling a sense of obligation to make sure that I'm not the one kind of setting a limit on that. And so I did a lot of my own work around looking at money and my historical and emotional relationship with money. You mentioned in your opening, you know, money has a history and often how money existed in our families and how we grew up.

has a big impact on how we do money as adults, as do lots of other things, kind of societal and emotional issues. And discovered along the way that there really weren't a lot of therapists talking about this who had kind of done the work to build their fluency with this

And also discovered that I was kind of good with money. And so certainly what people don't come to me with is financial planning and financial advice. The experts who do that are fantastic at what they do. But where folks come to me to talk about money is when they have some sense of what the right thing to do is or how to find the right counsel, but they've recognized that there's something in the way for them that isn't sort of fixed by knowing more.

by just simply having good counsel, that there's something stuck in them. You know, I can relate to so much of what you just said. I think my career found me. I didn't necessarily find it. And I think it found me because in my 20s, my financial life was a bit of a mess. I wasn't dealing with it. I was avoiding. And it was only once I started reporting on personal finance and these really smart people

told me what I should do, that I couldn't avoid doing the right thing anymore. And when it comes to knowing the right things to do,

Like with diet and exercise, I mean, we know if we eat better and move a little more, we're going to be in better shape. And we know if we spend a little less and try to save a little more, we're going to be in better financial shape. But many of us can't get ourselves to just do those things. When clients come to you...

In your practice, I mean, what do you think, what are the factors that are driving this disconnect between doing the right thing and not being able to?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think just to really join in what you're saying, I think great financial advisors like physicians and dietitians and nutritionists are amazing. And I think often knowing more is very helpful. But there is, of course, that moment where you recognize, I know exactly what I need to be eating. I know exactly how I need to be kind of managing my financial life, but I keep kind of month to month not doing that.

I think that it's obviously so different for different people. And I think ultimately in therapy, we really have the luxury of kind of really diving into an individual person's particular experience and particular history. But I think what I've come to recognize in terms of some common themes are that people are tending to relate to this as just a matter of willpower.

And so another month goes by, obviously another year goes by, there's the reckoning of filing taxes and kind of the different ways that we tend to reconcile at the end of an old year, beginning of a new year. And often what people will say is, oh, I need to do, I know what I need to do. I just need to work harder. I just need to be more disciplined. And they do things like create a budget or use like a budgeting app. And again, which can be, those can be great tools, but I think

over and over again, what people often fall into is, I just need to try harder. I just need to try harder. And if that works, that's great. But I'm assuming if that's worked for them, that probably they're not in my office. Because what's suggesting is that there's something more complicated going on there that I think we need to be curious about. What are those complicating factors typically? And how do you, how does financial therapy work? How do you get to them? Yeah. Yeah.

I think the reality is that it works like how therapy for most other issues works, which is I think we have to do some exploring to understand what else is what we call bound up in therapy.

an individual's relationship with money. Money can be symbolic. I think about the experience of individuals who grew up without a lot of money and then in adult life maybe have been more financially stable or been financially sort of very successful and are navigating an experience of in early formative years living with scarcity or seeing the model in a parent or parents have to by necessity navigate scarcity. There's ways, of course, that then gets bound up in all kinds of

morality and shaming and guilt, wanting a particular present perhaps that other kids at school have when the funds simply aren't available to do that, and feeling a sense either because parents are shaming or parents aren't shaming, but there's a kind of self-shaming that comes around that, and the sort of complicated feelings that come with the vulnerability of wanting and being disappointed, the experience of hunger, perhaps sometimes literal hunger or metaphorical hunger, and then disentangling that later on.

But there's lots of things. Patients talk to me about experience of divorce and the ways that money is so often both as a very real thing and also symbolically parents fighting with one another around that or even without divorce. Parents blaming, shaming, fighting about that. A parent losing a job, the experience of perhaps downward mobility, the

the experience of having a certain level of stability and then losing it. And there's ways that those things, in ways that we're not always so consciously aware of, become a part of us and we carry them with us. And often people think, oh, well, money was a big issue in my house, so I'm just going to make sure that I'm really successful so that I don't have that problem. And that can be great and certainly works for some people. But even when we solve a kind of material problem, often...

The emotionality of a different moment early on sort of follows us and sometimes not so consciously, not so awarely impacts how we operate as adults. So I want to get truly tactical with this. I know that my listeners appreciate it. But the first thing I wonder before we dig into overcoming some money problems and getting started with that is, okay,

Are there things that we can do in advance to prevent these problems from arising? Is there anything we can do, I would say in our 20s and 30s, but no matter what age we are, to get in front of this? Yeah. Yeah. I think that most of the time, obviously, people's individual experience varies, and I think this varies across generations.

class and income level and kind of all of those kinds of things. But I think for most people, their 20s are a time where perhaps they're earning less money, but hopefully also have less financial obligation. And of course, that's certainly different in different people's situations. But I think that if there's an opportunity earlier on in adulthood to

while the one's financial situation is relatively simpler, work on establishing some goals and habits and norms

that will then persist when things get more complicated. And so as one has maybe the opportunity to have access to more funds and the great opportunity that comes with that, there's also more possibility of getting into trouble. I think when you're simply paying rent, that is a serious obligation and a grown-up obligation that comes with complications, but perhaps is a different kind of financial obligation than a

The expenses that come with having children, with being partnered, with having a mortgage, with having kind of more sophisticated and complicated financial life. And so looking at that as a period of time,

to build good habits while things are hopefully a little bit simpler, I think is one big one. Noting how much money you have, really being self-conscious about your relationship with debt, using a budget if that's a tool that's necessary, building kind of month-to-month accountability, facing difficult issues rather than burying them and hiding from them, which is, I think, a common experience of folks earlier on in adulthood. I think...

rather than hiding is a big one. But sometimes it's hard to recognize when you're just income strapped or when you actually have an unhealthy relationship with money. What are the signs? Yeah, I think some of the signs are

are pretty obvious, but I think in some ways that's implicit in your question, which is I think these are the kinds of experiences that people bring to me in therapy where they say, in retrospect, it should have been obvious at the time. Here were the following signs, but I wasn't just seeing them. So I'll tell you what some of those things are that we're seeing, but I also think there's kind of a problem of perception, which is that money is a place where we can tend to have a lot of denial. But those signs are... Listen, I think having a sense...

of finding oneself regularly when you get a credit card statement or of having an experience of saying, huh, that's so strange. I feel like I should have more money than I have. That's a very common one. Looking at a credit card pill and saying, whoa, I had no idea I spent that much money. I think when we notice that there are areas where our idea of what's happening based on our own sort of self-tracking isn't aligned well,

when actual concrete data shows up in the form of a credit card statement or hitting an overdraft, needing to kind of log in and check a balance and noticing that it's lower. And I think sometimes I invite people to think about let reality, let the concrete markers, the concrete markers aren't always going to tell you the full story, but let them at least indicate

invite scrutiny, let them invite you to slow down and say, I need to take a closer look at this. And then think about what that process is where you're going to look at that. Even if it's scary, invite a friend to kind of look through that with you, go through your credit card statement with a partner and do the exercise of saying, making that rhetorical question of like, where'd all my money go into a real question and really, but use those markers, use those reminders in the form of kind of bumping up against reality to prompt you to do some looking.

I know that the numbers and I from doing this work for years are really scary for a lot of people. But what we find and when we take people through our finance fixed classes, which is, you know, watching where your money's going essentially and then making some tweaks, it's freeing.

Actually, you think it's going to be really scary. But once you discover what you're able to control and where you're able to make some changes, it's not nearly as scary as you thought. And you can take a lot of that power back.

Yeah. So many times people talk to me about, I haven't looked at my credit card statement in months. I've stopped opening it. Or, oh gosh, I haven't talked to my wife about the checking account. And I don't even know what all we're behind on. I had my own experience. When I finished grad school, I had a ton of student loans. And the way it worked out is I had, I think, nine different loans. And I moved into my new apartment. And I think

I think they found me as they do. And every day I'd get home from work and there'd be just another pile of stuff from these different loan companies and names I didn't recognize. And they just stacked up on my table. And I happened to mention to a friend, I said, oh gosh, I haven't even looked at it. I have no idea what's going on there. It's so scary. And he said to me, he said, well, why don't I come over and look at it with you? And I said, oh, that's silly. He said, no, let me look at it with you.

And the next time I saw him, he said, you're in trouble. I said, why? And he said, well, you haven't asked me to come over. And I said, oh, well, actually, that night that we talked, just you inviting, you know, offering to come over. I went home and I looked at it and it really was OK. And so two things in that. I think one is this idea of like inviting somebody else in to kind of break the

Some of the intensity, somebody to hold our hand in the ways that's scary. And maybe somebody that's been there before, ideally, and somebody who has a sense of the fact that usually these things maybe aren't quite as scary in reality. But also that the not knowing and the trick I was playing on myself of pretending that I wasn't thinking about it.

But in reality, it was kind of grinding away at me, but sort of just outside of the view. And then I knew. And so, you know, I owed a bunch of money and that was a little bit scary. But also, it wasn't as much of a mess and a nightmare as it felt. So reality, I think you're absolutely right. Even when it's really hard, even when there is bad news happening.

It's better than the slow grinding away of constant denial. Absolutely. We're going to take a really quick break, Matt. But when we come back, I want to get into two things. One, the issue of overspending and why we do it, because I know that there are so many reasons beyond actually needing something. And two, the role that money plays in our relationships, because

Boy, you take your own money issues and you add those to another person's and it's like one plus one equals 72. We'll be right back.

Do you find yourself getting the winter blues after the holiday rush? Look, let's face it, once the holiday lights come down and all the plans with family and friends pretty much grind to a halt, winter can feel blah. The skies are gray, the nights are long, the chill seems endless. What

When that midwinter slump hits, I try to give myself a little boost, a little treat, if you will. And for that, I love Quince. Quince brings you everyday luxury at prices that will not break your budget. They have gorgeous staples starting at just $50.

including my favorite Mongolian cashmere sweaters. I just got the most amazing chocolate brown. The question is, how do they make luxury so affordable? Quince skips the middleman, working directly with top factories to bring you premium prices at 50 to 80% less than other brands. Plus...

Every item is crafted with care. Quince only partners with factories that prioritize safe, ethical, and sustainable manufacturing. I, for one, have been eyeing their cotton cashmere dolman sweaters. I love the elevated look, and even though they're short-sleeved, I know the cashmere will keep me warm without feeling stuffy or overheated the next time I head into the city for a meeting.

Treat yourself this winter without the luxury price tag. Go to quince.com slash her money for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's quince.com slash her money to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash her money.

You know what's smart? Enjoying a fresh gourmet meal at home that you didn't have to cook. Meet Factor, your loophole in the laws of mealtime. Chef-crafted meals delivered with a tap, ready in just two minutes. You know what's even smarter? Treating yourself without cheating your goals. Factor is dietician-approved, chef-prepared, and you-plated. Pretty smart, huh? Refresh your routine and eat smart with Factor. Learn more at factormeals.com.

We are back talking with Matt Lundquist, founder of Tribeca Therapy, about those emotional money issues that really get in our way and muck up the works. We're just coming out of the holiday season.

People are dealing with credit card bills. They're not going to be able to slog through until the middle of spring. Some of that is generosity, but some of it was overspending. When we know that we are spending too much, why are we typically doing it? And how do we get a handle on it?

Yeah, yeah. Well, listen, as I said before, just an acknowledgement of that, that everybody's own experience with this is so particular. And but I think there's a couple of generalities that come out in terms of your question of what's going on there, which is that I think there's an attempt at times, and I think this does come up, especially around the holidays, to

to use spending as a kind of tool to solve an individual's emotional problems or to solve a relational problem. And so in terms of the first of those, which is certainly talked about a lot in the world, I think it's an experience and the parallel of overeating or unhealthy eating, I think it's a good parallel that you were making earlier, which is I'm unhappy in my life and somewhere or another I'm unhappy in my relationships or dealing with some disappointment or frustration in the world.

And you can't open a laptop, turn on a TV, walk down the street without the world offering you a solution. There's solutions everywhere. This pair of shoes, this fancy dinner, this bottle of wine, this purse. And again, all of those things, shoes and wine and dinners are all kind of wonderful things and things that can bring real enjoyment. But I think the tendency is...

that those are so easy. I pull out a piece of plastic, I hit a couple of buttons on my phone, and there it is. And in fact, I do feel better. I had this kind of fun experience of buying something. That, I think, experience that people are aware of is very, very real. And again, the particulars of what that looks like and what to do about it is ultimately, I think, one to recognize that that's happening. Oh, I'm doing this because I'm trying to solve some other problems that perhaps

perhaps money and spending in this way aren't really so well suited. I sometimes say buying nice things is a fine thing to do, but it's a little bit like

a great medication, but that's being used to treat the wrong illness or the wrong issue. It's not that that medication necessarily is bad. It's just not really the thing that's going to treat the issue that you're kind of pretending it's going to treat. And so the second issue that comes up, I mentioned, is kind of solving relational problems. And that's where that line that can be tricky to define between what's generosity and what's overspending, particularly like around the holidays and gift giving is

is so important is to recognize people feel guilty towards their adult child. And so they overspend on a Christmas present. Somebody perhaps is in a relationship where they've been struggling to set limits and say no because of some, whatever way that they do relationships or history of that particular relationship.

And so the easier thing to do that makes everybody happy, at least until you have to pay the piper and the credit card bill comes, is to say somebody's asking for money or asking for a particular gift or asking that I treat them for something. I'll just say yes. And they seem happy with me. And it temporarily solves a problem. I don't have to deal with all the stuff that's kind of complicated stuff that's bound up and saying no in our history or in my own history with setting limits.

And it's what we call a bad solution. It's a reasonable enough thing to do, but perhaps not necessarily something that actually is going to address the actual issue that we're hoping or pretending that it will address. One of the ways that you've suggested that people get a handle, particularly on impulse spending, is to have a more organized wallet. And I was thinking about this yesterday because my way, my wallet is always a disaster.

just for the record. But my way to make my wallet more organized was to get a smaller wallet with a zipper so that I could handle it. Well, I was in the grocery store yesterday with my husband.

And I couldn't get the zipper to unzip because there was so much crap in my wallet getting in the way of the zipper that I definitely need to fix this. But why does this work? And how do you do it? Yeah. I mean, what really I think the kind of psychological premise of that particular kind of hack – and hacks are great –

is that when we have a disorganized relationship with something, it's easier to be in it and just say, oh, I don't even know. Probably I can afford it. Let me do it. And I think the default, it's always in those moments easier to say yes than to say no. It's always easier to say, sure, let's have a second bottle of wine. Sure, I'll buy the fancier version of this car that I budgeted.

And I think one of the things that can contribute to that is disorganization. And I think that what we're looking at is having a sense of clarity and organizing our financial statements, organizing kind of whether we do it on paper or online, organizing that within our calendar and your wallet is another part of that. The idea is to bring kind of a heads-upness and intentionality to these kinds of decisions to hopefully slow us down. In a way, it's kind of similar to the concept of

like intentional eating, self-conscious eating, which is to look and see what are the ways in which I can do this in a more clarified heads up way when there's a big pull to not stop and think and to function more from impulse. I will be cleaning it out this afternoon just for the record. But relationships enter the picture in a lot of different ways. We all bring

bring our own baggage to money, our own histories to money. And when you're trying to manage yours as well as a partner's, that can get really dodgy. And the studies that scare me the most are the ones that point to the fact that the more often you disagree per week or per month or fight a

per week or per month about money, the more likely you are to divorce. I mean, that's just, it's been studied and that's, it's one of the things that drives people apart. So how do you successfully mesh your financial style with a partner's? Yeah. Yeah. You know, money is really one of those things like, like I think a handful of things in relationships where,

There's this idea that we're just supposed to know what we're doing. We're just supposed to be good at it. And also, I think in the experience of courtship and choosing who to partner with and the early part of that process,

I think it's also an area where there are a lot of assumptions around, of course, we'll keep separate bank accounts. Or, of course, we're not going to run up credit card debt. Of course, we're going to buy and not rent. Or, of course, we're not going to overspend on Christmas. Whatever. Oh, of course, we're not going to support your brother. But it's all of this stuff that's in the of course category.

category where it doesn't occur to us with this person that we're head over heels in love with and feel like we have all these things in common with and can't get over kind of all of the ways in which we're aligned, that we discover that actually there's some areas that we just happen not to have talked about where actually our values are different or are just ways of operating or how we organize our wallets is different. And so I think one piece of that, I think, is to do what we call as there was make the covert overt.

I think that often it can feel at that moment, I think particularly when people are on their way to getting married or newly married, I can feel a little bit like a kind of relationship nerd, which is to say, you know, and a little bit of a kind of an unromantic. But I think early on before there are too many of those difficult money conversations, when there's the goodwill and the excitement there.

of the relationship and perhaps things being a little bit simpler financially and otherwise, I think those are the best of times to, in a certain sense, in a certain counterintuitive sense, move towards the problem. And I think that looks like a couple of things. One is to carve out intentional space

to talk about money and to take a look at where that lives and to ask some of those questions that may seem obvious. Oh, how do you feel about this? How do you feel about that? How do you think about raising children? What are the kinds of values and ways that we want to organize money around that? The other thing I often encourage people to do before they get into some of the inevitable harder stuff that comes later is

I encourage people to really, when there's what might feel like a minor problem, maybe really is a minor problem, to actually use that as an opportunity to have an even bigger conversation. Like what? Where there's perhaps a minor disagreement. Somebody forgets to pay a bill or something.

spends something that was a surprise to their partner, goes to pick up the new car and comes back and says, oh, actually, it turns out they gave me a great deal on the nicer model. And a spouse says, wait, that doesn't seem to align with what I was thinking. And the inclination changes.

Particularly, again, relatively earlier on might be to say, oh, no big deal. We can afford it. Not such a big thing. But perhaps not to move towards it by way of turning it into a bigger fight, but hopefully to move towards it by way of saying, hmm, I wonder if we should use this opportunity to slow down and really talk through how we want to handle this because probably the stakes are going to get bigger and bigger.

as time goes on so that you can kind of build that infrastructure of talking about money. I think one of the most important things is to really work through this thing we were talking about earlier, Jean, this tendency to avoid. And I think a lot of the trouble that couples get into is they've avoided and they've avoided and even maybe said to themselves like, oh, look at me, I'm being really generous. I'm not making a big deal out of that.

financial disagreement that emerged last week. And again, I think there's a kindness. I think certainly letting things go is an important life skill. But I think there's also some value in saying, well, gosh, maybe let's actually invite giving this some attention.

Yeah, I think that's a really good suggestion. As we wrap this up, we started this conversation by talking about how you got into financial therapy. How do we know if we need it? And if we do need it, where do we find someone to help us? Yeah, yeah. I think it's a fantastic question. I think you know you need it when...

You've done the work to seek out good advice and good counsel from money experts, and you've found yourself kind of not able to consistently follow through with what it is they're recommending or when a kind of anxiety around it.

is so strong that it's preventing you from actually being able to even seek out that kind of financial assistance and kind of make an appointment and go and get that counsel or even think about it. I think when you recognize that there's kind of a lot bound up in this emotionally that is interfering with your ability to really make some good decisions, and obviously when you're in some trouble,

Um, the second question of how to find it, I think is a little bit more complicated. There's this funny thing. I do think the kinds of people that tend to become psychotherapists aren't necessarily people who self identify as being so skilled or competent with money. And so, um,

I think that the work of finding a therapist who talks very fluently about it. So I think the internet is your friend. And I think it's important to specifically look for what's somebody who's done some writing and some thinking about or done some public conversations about money and seems to have done some self-work as evidenced by their ability to talk fairly openly about this. Or

If you don't necessarily find such a person to call around and talk with some therapists and kind of lead with saying, I'm recognizing that there's some emotional stuff mixed in with my financial life. Are you good at helping people with money? Is that something that you're skilled at and confident? And ask some tough questions as you would in kind of finding somebody to provide any service for you. I encourage people, I think people often are.

are a little bit shy about asking too much of a therapist and maybe a little bit too forgiving earlier on. And I think it's a process that,

that you want to get right. I think people should be picky. Yeah, absolutely. Where can we find more about you? Yeah. So the easiest way is at our website. I try to do an awful lot of writing and I think it's pretty well in text to look there specifically under the topic of money or finances, financial therapy on my website, which is tribecatherapy.com. Matt, thank you. This was totally great. Really helpful. Yeah, me as well.

All right. We'll be right back, everyone.

Want to increase trust as a leader? I talked to Whole Foods co-founder John Mackey. Want to manage your time better? I talked to Google's in-house productivity expert. Straight to the point, 30 minutes or less, just search for problem solvers. We are back for mailbag and I have a little bit of news, which is that the amazing and wonderful Kelly Hultgren has left her money and she's gone off to a fantastic start.

fantastic job that represents an incredible step forward for her in her career progression. I don't know how many of you know my history with Kelly. Kelly started

out of college with me when she was 21 years old as my assistant, worked with me for five years, left for a couple of years to go work on Wall Street, came back, stayed a few years, and she's just ready to fly. I could not be prouder of her. Personally, I'm just really sad.

because she is one of my favorite people and and I will miss having her around but what this also gives me a chance to do is to introduce you through our mailbags to some other members of our Her Money team so what we're gonna do is have some different voices in our mailbag we of course

are really excited about having you come on and ask your questions. I love talking to the members of my team, but quite frankly, I get to do that every day and I like talking to you better. So if you've got a question and you want to come on the show and

just hash it out with me. I am open for that. Send us an email at mailbag at hermoney.com. We'll pick it up and we'll get that scheduled. But over the next couple of weeks,

couple of months, you are going to hear once again from Catherine Tuggle, who is eager to step back into the mailbag chair, as well as other members of our team. And today, Emily White is with us. You've probably heard me refer to Emily. Emily handles all of our social media. They are

couple of years out of college. Well, why am I saying this? Emily, welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about you.

Thanks, Jean. Yeah, I mean, you covered the basics. I handle all the social media here at Her Money, which includes the Her Money podcast, the articles that go on our site, as well as all of the stuff that you do on your own social media channels, which is super cool. I graduated in 2023 from the University of Pennsylvania, and I live in Philly with two cats who I love dearly. And

Maybe we'll make an appearance in a video, one of these at some point. Maybe they will. Yes, Emily's cats, they're not as noisy as Norman, but they do make a habit of walking over their keyboard, which is charming and funny. So maybe we'll get to meet them. But I was thinking, Emily, about your cat.

shopping habits during this conversation with Matt Lundquist, the

idea of how our childhood really shapes our relationship with money. I mean, you are interesting. You are a big thrifter. You make a lot of things. And yet I know just from knowing you the past couple of years that you've been handling our social media, I know you'll spend money on ingredients.

I know you'll spend money on like a really special hunk of cheese or kimchi, right? So what is it about the way that you were raised that you think shaped your shopping habits?

Yeah. I mean, I think what both of those habits boil down to is that I want to be creative with the things that I'm making. So if I'm cooking and I'm in the kitchen, I don't want to feel like I'm limited by the ingredients that I can have in my fridge. And so I'm willing to kind of sacrifice having the latest and trendiest pair of jeans so that I can go out and buy saffron for a recipe that I like.

I'm really, really excited to make.

And I think I've found over the years that I get more joy from the items of clothing that I, you know, knit or sew for myself than the ones that I kind of buy when I'm just wandering around a mall. And knowing that about myself helps me say the thing that makes me happy is getting to cook for other people, not so much walking around and shopping. I can window shop while my friends buy whatever they want. But, you know, nothing really replaces shopping.

a good meal that you can all share and enjoy. Yeah, I've got to say, I was so impressed right before the holidays, Emily showed me this scarf that they were eyeing at Anthropologie that was $250, which is a lot for a scarf.

and said you were going to make it yourself. You were just going to sort of copy it. How did that turn out? You're going to have to bring it along the next time you tape and show us your progress. I will. It's still not done. Starting projects and finishing them are kind of two different hobbies, unfortunately. But it's like a third of the way there. And it's great. It's super fun and colorful. And I'm excited to hopefully have it while it's still cold.

That's the good thing about cooking, because a cooking project is a project that you both start and likely finish during the same time. We've got a bunch of mailbag questions, so let's go for it. So our first question comes from Bill. He writes, what's a good way to invest in Bitcoin with smaller dollars? Are there funds you would recommend? Yeah, Bill, you can do this with Bitcoin ETFs, which were...

rolled out last year. Not every brokerage firm offers Bitcoin ETFs, but Fidelity does. And you can dollar cost average your way into Bitcoin at a rate of whatever you want.

on a biweekly basis or a monthly basis or at a cadence that you choose. In fact, I think although it's been a while, you should go back and you should listen to the very first podcast that we did on Bitcoin.

It was not just about Bitcoin. It was about crypto. The guest was named Bill Ullman, who has a podcast of his own. And we really went into detail about this whole idea of dollar cost averaging into crypto. You can do it.

by opening a Coinbase account. And again, dollar cost averaging into Bitcoin, Ethereum, other cryptocurrencies that you're interested in. But if you've got an account already at a traditional brokerage firm, I would just check and see if you can access Bitcoin ETFs that way. The general recommendation these days is that it really should account for no more than a couple percentage points of your portfolio. But again,

Big names who were at one point crypto shy, people like Larry Fink of BlackRock have really come around and said, yeah, this is a holding that actually belongs in a traditional portfolio. So you are definitely onto something.

One of the things that kind of makes me nervous a little bit about Bitcoin is how much it seems to fluctuate. And I am the type of investor where I set it and I forget it and it does its thing and I check it every six months. But I'm wondering if you're invested in such a volatile asset, should you kind of be paying a little more attention and maybe rebalancing more often? Is that kind of part of the equation of keeping it at a low percentage of your portfolio?

I think not, actually. I mean, paying more attention is likely to cause you to take actions that you really shouldn't be taking. It's going to cause you to try to time the market. So you see it spikes. Maybe you think, oh, I should sell. But if it spiked in the 70s and you thought, oh, my God, how can it get any higher? And you sold and then it went down to 50 and then back up over 100. Right.

you're kicking yourself. So actually paying more attention may not be a good thing. I would say that the volatility and the risk is the big reason that it should represent no more than a few percentage points of your portfolio. No, that makes sense. Yeah. We've got one more. Our next question comes from Anne. She writes...

Hi, Jean. First, thank you for doing what you do. I admired you on the Today Show and was so grateful to find the Her Money podcast just before the pandemic. You've helped me feel more confident managing my own finances. And as a single woman in my 30s, that has meant so much to me. Thank you. Thank you, Anne. That's incredibly nice. Makes me feel good. I also just joined Investing Fix and love it.

I am writing to you with a question about student loans, namely the loan that my parents took out to pay for my and my siblings' college degrees. There are three of us, and we each took out about $25,000 in our own names, and we paid those off. My parents, meanwhile, took out loans for the rest, and their remaining balance is just under $200,000 in a consolidated parent plus loan. To say we are grateful is an understatement.

They've paid on that dutifully, followed the ups and downs of Congress, the pandemic, changing servicers, etc. They're in a graduated repayment plan until my dad retires, at which point they will enter an income contingent plan and the monthly amount will drop slightly. We're considering a few different scenarios once they are both in full retirement, but the gist is that they're going to be paying it back until my dad passes, which

which is the morbid reality of student loans. My siblings and I want to help with that monthly payment, and this is where I would love your advice. I've proposed this to my parents a few times, and they are not keen on the idea. I think a lot of that is pride and their beliefs about the role of parents and children, all of which I respect.

At the same time, they're on the verge of full retirement and their monthly budget could really use the extra cash flow. And we want to minimize their financial stress so that they can enjoy themselves over the next several years. In short, it's our turn to contribute. Their current monthly payment is around $1,500. My siblings and I can't afford to pay the entire amount, but we want to contribute around half and we want to start setting that money aside now, even if they aren't ready to draw on it yet.

I don't want to wait until my parents come around. The thought was to open a high-yield savings account that my siblings and I could all contribute to, our own amounts per each person's budget, and that somehow my parents could then access that money whenever they'd like. I'm sure it's not that simple, though.

Any ideas or advice you have are most welcome. And thank you again for all of your guidance over the years. Well, I love that you and your siblings want to do this for your parents. And I also understand that a lot of parents after such a long time feel that this is their debt. It's on them. And they're thinking about you and, oh, my gosh, do you have your own kids? And you have to save for their college. But I think that this is

lovely gesture and realistically if your parents choose never to access the money it'll come back to you all eventually in equal measure so there's really no downside the good news is it actually is exactly that easy open a high-yield savings account wherever your parents Bank if they don't Bank someplace that has

has a high yield savings account, then just open it up online someplace. You can all schedule monthly transfers of whatever your budget allows into this account. I would make sure that your parents get paper statements on this account. I think that seeing the growing balance may

may offer some sort of encouragement to them that this actually is their money and that they can use the money. And the reason that it's so simple is that gifting laws under the tax code allow each person to give money

close to around $18,000 a year to any other person. So you guys are so far under these gifting limits, it's not going to trigger the need to file a gift tax return. You can just move the money, it's there. And if after a while you notice that they're still really reticent to use the money,

I'd start thinking with my siblings about whether there are other things that your parents would allow you to pay for. Money's fungible.

It doesn't matter if it's this $1,500 or that $1,500. It's $1,500 and it's coming from somewhere. And so if they're buying plane tickets to visit somebody and you know that that's a bit of a stretch, maybe they reach into that account and do that.

they need to repair the roof and that has become a bit of a stretch maybe they reach into the account and do that if there's a medical procedure or something that comes up maybe they reach into the account then the point is that you're

You're building a slush fund for them. That's theirs that will show up every month. They'll get used to the fact that you really don't need the money. So I think it's lovely. And thank you so much for listening. Jean, I love the suggestion of making that money available for other things. I think that's I'm in a situation with with my mom where eventually I'd like to help her retire. And she's very much the same way of this is not your responsibility, but

I think being a little bit creative about what you're technically paying for is kind of a good way to make that more palatable. Absolutely. You know, we all play mind games with ourselves about what we feel is acceptable, right? What we feel we can handle. So if that helps, I am all for it. Thank you, Emily. Thanks for doing this with us today.

Thanks for having me. And if you have any other money related questions, we'd love to hear from you. Send them our way by emailing us at mailbag at hermoney.com. A very big thank you to Matt Lundquist for sharing how we can all cultivate a better relationship with money in the new year.

If you love this episode, please give us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. We always value your feedback. And if you want to keep the financial conversations going, join me for a deeper dive.

Her Money has two incredible programs, Finance Fix, which is an eight-week program designed to give you the ultimate money makeover, and Investing Fix, which is our investing club for women that meets biweekly on Zoom. With both programs, we are leveling the playing fields for women's financial confidence and power. I would love to see you there.

Her Money is produced by Haley Pascalides. Our music is provided by Video Helper and our show comes to you through Megaphone. Thanks for joining us and we'll talk soon.