Ep 466: A Better Version Of You
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And if you think about it, people who are really high in neuroticism, they just get stuck in really negative thought patterns kind of over and over again. So there's a lot of catastrophizing. There's a lot of dread and fear and worry. And so being free from some of that and thinking that things might actually be OK can feel like a huge burden lifted. It can feel like a huge pay raise.

Hey, everyone. Thanks so much for joining me today on Her Money. I'm Jean Chatzky, and I have a question for you. Have you ever felt that you needed to push yourself just a little bit more? I know I've had to do it many times in my life, sometimes where fitness is concerned, sometimes where money is concerned, actually, to save a little bit more or to be a little bit

more stringent with the goals that I'm trying to reach for. But often we need a nudge in other areas of our lives too, to get out of our comfort zones, to build better habits, to lean into the parts of ourselves that can make us feel stronger, more confident, more fulfilled. In other words, we have to be intentional about making those small shifts

Thank you so much for joining us.

Me But Better, The Science and Promise of Personality Change, where she details the year that she spent experimenting with ways to tweak her own habits, her own tendencies, and her own mindset to learn what's actually possible and what's not when it comes to personal growth. Olga, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. I want to start with your book title.

Is it actually possible to change your personality or are we all just simply making adjustments to borrow a page from the show Severance, the you you are?

Well, I think both. Personality change, I think, is possible, but you have to really want to do it. So you have to kind of change your daily habits and behaviors and thought patterns in order to actually achieve true personality change.

But what that will look like kind of day to day is basically just adjustments to the you that you are. So what you'll notice is maybe a slight reduction in anxiety or a slightly, you know, grown or expanded social circle. You know, you might notice deepening relationships, but it'll it'll still be your same life. Difference in your mind between personality change and habit change.

Personality change is sort of all it encompasses a little bit more than habits. So it's habit, but it's also kind of like your mindset and your thoughts around things and sort of the stories that you tell yourself about yourself and other people. So I would say that it's almost like a little bit deeper than habit. It's not just going through the motions. It's also sort of like.

buying into the motions, if that makes sense. So essentially, for a little while, we are just us with new skills or new habits, but eventually the compounding effect, to borrow a term from investing, is what drives that bigger change. Am I understanding that right? Yeah, that's right. So basically, you start with the behavior. So extroversion is a good example of this. So when I first started

trying to kind of meet more people and be more extroverted, it was very going through the motions, right? Like I had to force myself to leave the house. I had to force myself to go to improv. I was dreading it a lot of the time. But kind of over time, what I found is that, first of all, I enjoyed these experiences a lot more than I thought I would. And I kind of started to change this

notion of myself as like a hardened introvert who never needed social interaction. I was like, well, I did that and it was really fun. And I did that and it was really fun. And I did that and it was really fun. So maybe I actually enjoy this. And so you kind of start to shift your own concept of yourself as you rack up these new experiences.

Let's rewind to the beginning of this process for you. What was going on in your life where you felt like you needed to shake things up? What was happening that drove you to try to make a big change? Yeah, I noticed that my...

My life was not that bad. In fact, it was quite good. And now as a new parent, some of the incidents that I describe in the book, honestly, they seem really great to me, like, and I would love a day like that at this point. But so things like a bad haircut or getting stuck in traffic or just the mild annoyances, they would really kind of make me crumble to pieces. They would make me kind of really just have a huge meltdown and kind of chalk it up as like a horrible day.

On top of that, I was feeling really socially isolated, partly because of COVID, but not just because of COVID. And I kind of just wanted to shake up my life a little. I wanted to appreciate what I had and actually enjoy my life as opposed to just kind of enduring it and kind of gritting my teeth.

One of the nuggets that I pulled from the book was that you actually said you were feeling neurotic and that some research estimates that just a small reduction in neuroticism feels like earning $314,000 more a year. That is a really specific piece of data. So can you unpack it?

Yeah. So I also didn't believe that at first, but I looked at the study and that that is true. I think the reason why a small reduction in neuroticism feels so good is that neuroticism feels really bad. So neuroticism, just to back up, is the personality trait that's associated with anxiety and depression.

And if you think about it, people who are really high in neuroticism, they just get stuck in really negative thought patterns kind of over and over again. So there's a lot of catastrophizing, there's a lot of dread and fear and worry. And so being free from some of that and thinking that things might actually be okay can feel like a huge burden lifted. It can feel like a huge pay raise. One of the things that I think is so fascinating about this research is that

It's actually small tweaks in personality traits, like being a little more conscientious or a little more outgoing or a little less neurotic that have major effects.

impacts on your happiness, on your success. What's the science behind the small driving the large? Yeah, so really these personality traits are a spectrum. So researchers don't really think of personality in terms of like categories as much anymore. So like the Myers-Briggs, like INTJ type thing.

They're kind of moving away from that. And it's more about where you are on the spectrum of each of the personality traits. So in general, being a little bit higher on all of them. And for neuroticism, that means...

Being not neurotic, weirdly, it means being high in emotional stability, which is like the opposite of neuroticism. Being high in all of those traits is associated with better health, longevity, earning more money, better relationships, just sort of health and well-being. If you think about it, if you can adjust your personality, if you can become a little bit more extroverted or a little bit more agreeable, a little bit more conscientious, then

those can actually net really big changes. And the reason why you don't need to like flip the switch completely and become the extreme of that trait is because it's actually not that healthy to be like 100% high on those. So if you think about someone who's like 100% conscientious, it can be like kind of obsessive compulsive. It can be also not super healthy. So you just want to kind of slide along the middle there. It's so funny. You made me think of

this study, I was doing a deep dive into money and happiness a while back. And there was a piece of research that asked people to rate themselves in terms of how happy they are or how optimistic they are on a scale of one to 10. And it turned out the eights were where you wanted to be. You didn't want to be a

Because the tens were a little too blissed out, right? They just believed that everything was going to be okay when we know in reality, everything is not always going to be okay. And sometimes you have to deal with the things that are problematic. But this feels kind of like that.

Yeah. I mean, there's like this interesting concept in actually in research on anxiety called the Yerkes-Dodson principle, which is that you don't want to be completely not anxious, right? Like you don't want to be someone who has so little anxiety that you don't actually do anything. You also don't want to be like so anxious that you are like paralyzed with indecision. You want to be

somewhere in the middle there, like that kind of parabola shape. You want to be kind of somewhere in the middle where it's like you have some anxiety, you have a little bit of like get up and go kind of feeling, but it's not so much that you're just like...

can't do anything. So that applies to a lot of the traits. You met a researcher in the book, Nathan Hudson, and he explains that personality is what helps you get what you want in life. We all want different things. Sometimes we live for fun. Sometimes we want to acquire power or prestige. So my question is, can we change or shift our personalities throughout the

our long lives, depending on what we want at that particular point in time. Yeah, absolutely. So one of the kind of the reasons to do personality change is to accomplish some goal. So the people that I interviewed who did successfully change their personalities, they usually had something they were working toward that

trait was beneficial for. So one of the people I interviewed was like a college student who was very unprepared for college. He had never written a paper before. He had never really studied, but he kind of decided in college that he really wanted to become a psychologist, like a professional psychologist.

And he knew he would have to write lots of papers and go to graduate school and take the GREs. So he literally became more conscientious. He bought a book called like How to Make A's or yeah, How to Get A's. And he studied with a friend. He made flashcards, the whole nine yards.

And he wasn't doing that stuff just because he was like, conscientiousness as a trait is compelling to me. He was like, I have this goal. I want to accomplish it. This is how I will do it. It's through this personality trait. And that I found is the case with a lot of people and in various ways. That trait is like a tool to get them where they want.

Did you find that people could use these tactics and these tools to become better with money, that they could become better savers or that they could get themselves to the point where they were paying more attention to their investments?

I think one tactic in particular that could be useful for this is this idea called episodic future thinking, which is where you kind of very vividly imagine the future down to like very specific details. So things like what are you going to buy with the money that you save? Let's say you're saving up for a car. What will it feel like to drive the car? Where will you drive to? Who are you going to have sitting, you know, in the passenger seat? Kind of

these very specific images that help make that goal more desirable or more motivating for you to work toward. And people did that for different types of goals, like starting their own business or like that aforementioned guy for becoming a psychologist. But it

That's something that works really well whenever you have a lot of temptations in the short term and you're really trying to plan for that long term. Just make that kind of vision of yourself in the future very vivid so that you kind of are more inspired to work toward it.

I mean, there's a lot of behavioral finance research that points to if you can not only see your goal, but you name your goal and you have pictures of your goal, it's a lot easier to work toward your goal because the future is so squishy for so many people. When you were going through the process, you did a number of things to try to change your personality and get out of your comfort zone. And I want to talk about that.

the improv. And many people would say,

no way am I getting up there. But you found it was actually one of your more successful activities. Why was that? Yeah, so I will say there was like a commitment element to it. You can't skip more than a certain number of improv classes in the class that I took. I think it was like two classes or something. So you had to go even if you didn't feel like it. So I definitely recommend this for introverts who feel like they really don't want to

leave the house ever. Like, if you just make plans with friends, let's get drinks. Like, it'll be too easy to basically. So I would definitely sign up for something where you have to commit, you have to go. And then once I was there, I found that it really, first of all, it was a lot more fun than I expected.

Something kind of funny or amusing would happen almost every time. Even if I was really tired at the end of the day, which I often was, something about it would wake me up a little bit more than just watching TV or something like that. And also because everyone there is acting really silly and is a little bit insecure about it, it wasn't as scary to act stupidly.

silly in front of them. It's not like you're the only one acting silly. It just turned out a lot better than it than I expected. This morning, I before we taped this show, I went to the gym. I joined my gym after moving to a new city because I was feeling isolated and I needed people.

like people that I actually saw. So I now have this group of great gym friends and we were trying to make plans for a birthday, one of our friends' birthdays. And we all pulled out our phones and we all looked at our calendars and it was a nightmare. And I was taken with the fact that one of the people

things that you were challenging yourself to do was to try to make new friends. But you also have written that one of our problems is that we don't see the friends that we already have. How do we

make more space for that. So one of the people that I talked to on this journey, I guess, is Kat Velos. And she wrote a whole book about kind of making friends and deepening friendships. And she's like a friendship expert. But one tip that I took away from her is that like, oftentimes we put a lot of pressure on meeting up with friends. It has to be in a bar,

It has to be multiple hours. It has to be a time that works for everyone planned way in advance. Something that I started doing after this project is just like texting people like I have a little kid. So like, hey, want to have a play date for like one hour this afternoon, right? No one has to dress up. No one has to clean their house. No one has to like drive anywhere. You know, they all live nearby like.

It's something that's like very low stakes that can be done really easily. And I think that even if you, you know, it's not a play date, maybe it's just like, hey, want to come walk around the block? Want to come meet up at this coffee shop exactly halfway between our houses? I

I just think the stakes need to be set way lower. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I've found that the thing that works is either having plans way in advance. I have a group of women that I've met here in Philadelphia. We have a no book book group. No pressure. We don't have to read anything. We don't have to cook anything. We just go out for dinner. But it's always on the third Thursday of the month. So we all know when it's exactly when it's going to be. But

The other thing that works is just texting a friend and saying, hey, do you want to walk the dog? Right. I'm going to walk the dog now. Do you want to come with me and walk the dog? And the nice thing about walking the dog is that it doesn't cost anything. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And just finding things that are that are free. And one thing I really liked about Kat's advice is that like people.

people get in their heads about inviting their friends over unless they like make their house perfect first. But if that person is really going to be your friend, why do you need to make your house look like it doesn't normally look? I mean, obviously, if you're a hoarder, maybe declutter a little bit, but they're going to see a lot of sides of you that are like messier than your house, probably. So I don't know. I just I stopped cleaning my house basically before people came over.

I love that you have given yourself permission to do that as somebody who cleans up before the housekeeper comes. I definitely need to break that habit. We're going to take a very quick break, but when we come back, we're going to talk about the permanent changes that you've made since completing this experiment. For those of you who are loyal listeners to the Her Money podcast, you know I am all about saving you money, but that I also enjoy...

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And we are back with Olga Hazan, author of Me But Better. Your colleague Ellen Cushing wrote an article in The Atlantic that recently went viral, and she wrote about the fact that Americans just aren't going to parties anymore. Only 4% of Americans, she said, attended or hosted parties.

a social event on an average weekend or holiday in 2023, which was a 35% decrease from 2004. Is that just a COVID hangover or do you think something else is going on where we're not entertaining anymore?

Yeah, that's interesting. So I think there's so many reasons for that. So first of all, inflation, it's just like honestly very expensive to host parties. I also think people just aren't as close. They don't have as many friends and like neighbors that they're friendly with and that they would have get togethers with. And also like it just feels like, again, that the stakes are like very high. Like it's very, I don't know, I find that like if I truly want to have a gathering at my house, I'm going to have to have a gathering at my house.

I have to send out like formal invitations at least three weeks in advance. And there has to be a pretty good reason for people to come at least a birthday or something like that. It can't just be random. I live in a suburb, so it's probably different for people who live in cities. But I've hosted one party at my house since I moved in five years ago. And I mean, it was successful, I guess, but I was like...

i cannot do this with any regularity no i i totally know what you mean i mean i have friends in for dinner but i've had a party on my mind like we should have a party

for two years and I have done pretty much nothing about it because it does feel like a lot, like it's a lot. Although if you just have people and ask everybody to bring something, you kind of have a party and everybody will just be happy to get, I, my, my theory on this is if you're feeding people, they are just not going to complain.

Yeah, I mean, so I hope. You know, a friend of mine has started this tradition of dinner and a movie. Like she has people over for dinner and we watch a movie. And the first time she tried to do it, she emailed like an invite to a bunch of people, I guess like a week in advance, and no one said yes. And I kind of think, I don't know, I think there's like a little bit of a social reclusion kind of like thing.

thing going on where people don't really want to get out of their little hidey holes, especially in the winter. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I know that your life has changed since you embarked on this experiment, you have a baby, things are different. What strategies did you find that actually helped you stick with some of these new habits that you found that you liked, particularly as you're going through so many changes in your own life?

The big one for extroversion was I just realized that like often when I'm feeling sad and out of sorts, it's not a sign that I need to socialize less. It's a sign that I need to socialize more. It's a sign that I need to seek connection, which was kind of a big realization for me. And now I would say I just like reach out a lot more. Like I just kind of text people like, hey, want to get together? Want to get together? Whereas extroversion,

before it was something I like way overthought. I was like, oh, that person didn't respond within like a day. That means they don't want to. I'm not going to text them again until they text me. I did a lot of that kind of thing. And now I just am like, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. My house or yours. Which has been really helpful as a new parent because it can get very lonely and isolating. A couple of times during this conversation, you've described things that make me think that you're no longer an introvert, right? You described things

The improv class being sort of a recharger of your batteries, you just described needing to be with people to get happier. And when I think about introverts, I think of people who need to be alone to recharge, but that's not what you're saying.

Yeah, I think that was something that I realized during this is that I am not as introverted as I thought I was, at least, and that I'm maybe not like a classic introvert at all. I think it was more like I was like, well, I'm alone all the time. I must like being alone. I'm an introvert was sort of my thought process. You're just a writer. Yeah, I guess. I'm just, yeah, I just have a lot of work to do.

I do. But I think this really did show me that even when it seems easier to be alone, it's often better to be with other people, if that makes sense. For people who are just starting here, for people who are listening to this conversation and thinking, yeah, I could really, I'd like to shake it up a little bit. I'd like to be me, but better. I mean, who wouldn't want that?

Where would you suggest that they start? What's one or two just small things that we can take away from this conversation and try to incorporate in the next day or so? I would sign up for something. Sign up for either a class or an activity or some sort of recurring activity.

commitment that you have to go to. It doesn't have to be expensive. It can be free. It can be a meetup. But just sign up for one thing that it is not super easy to back out of and just see how you like it.

The book is me, but better the science and promise of personality change. Olga, if people are looking for more info on you on the book, where would you send them? I'm a writer at The Atlantic, which is theatlantic.com. And you can also find me at my sub stack, which is olgahazan.substack.com. Twitter, blue sky, and kind of the same everywhere. Amazing. Thanks so much for doing this with us. Then we'll be right back with your mailbag.

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- And in today's mailbag, we're gonna talk about sleep. At some point, all too many of us have felt like our careers demanded sleepless nights and caffeine-fueled days, and look, I get it. Our society glorifies the grind, the early risers, the night owls, the executives who claim that they only need four hours of sleep to conquer the world.

I am not one of them. And here's the thing. Good sleep is essential to our well-being and sleep and financial success are deeply intertwined. According to data from the CDC, there is a strong connection between better sleep and higher income. Those with higher incomes are typically getting at least six hours of sleep a night.

You guys had some amazing sleep questions and we wanted to tackle them today with Luke Kelly, CEO of Bright, a company at the forefront of sleep technology. As part of our partnership, I recently spent a night on one of their mattresses. And let me just tell you, I don't sleep in hotels. I spend a lot of time in hotels and I always have to come home and take a nap.

Bright arranged for me to spend a night on one of their mattresses at a hotel in New York and I actually slept, which for me is pretty remarkable. And the technology was really nothing to sneeze at either.

I was able to set the firmness on both sides of the bed. I only used one, but I set it on both and sort of tested both out. And then I put the Bright app on my phone and was able to plug in with my AirPods and

and choose the sound and the motion, the mattress actually had motion, that I wanted to fall asleep to. So I chose a rainstorm because for me, rain and thunder is actually one of those things that makes it easier for me to sleep. And I remember the beginning of it. I don't remember the end of it or how long the playlist lasted because I was out like a light. Luke, it was pretty incredible. I have not been...

on such a high-tech mattress before? - Well, I'm really thrilled that you had an opportunity to try the mattress and you had such a great experience with it. I hope you also found that even though there's a lot of technology packed in there, that it's very accessible. We try really hard to make sure that

At whatever stage you're at, wherever you're at, it's a very good experience. We don't want the tech. We want the technology to melt into the background and really focus on your wellness and sleep and make those couple key things you mentioned.

Stress, anxiety, relaxation. We are huge believers in wind down experiences and routines to help you sleep. The entirety of our Brightways experience is really focused on how do we make those routines easier, more delightful, more accessible and ground them in things that we know work really well like cognitive behavioral therapy, but do it in such a way that makes it easy and enjoyable. So I was glad you got to try out the Brightways experience and found that to be delightful.

And then also just having the personalization is so important, both because couples sleep differently, but also at different ports in our life, we need different things. And that's women going through pregnancy or menopause or for me right now with a right shoulder injury, I need a different experience. And if I didn't have a bright bed at home, I wouldn't be sleeping as well. I wouldn't be recovering as well. I wouldn't be as energized and I wouldn't be as effective in my daily life.

Yeah, my husband and I actually sleep so differently that we have two twin beds pushed together as a king because I like a firm mattress and he likes it a little bit softer. For everybody who's listening out there, I know you've got some tips on just getting a better night's sleep no matter what mattress you're sleeping on. What are your favorite hacks, for lack of a better word?

Well, before I really got into this, my favorite hack was probably the things that everybody thinks about, which is an extra glass of red wine and streaming more Netflix. And that's actually the worst thing you can do for sleep. So my favorite hacks are really focusing on

creating wind down experiences even a couple of hours before you're getting ready for bed so move your last meal earlier try not to stack right before bed because that requires your body to do less you can do more sleep and recovery alcohol right before bed is an inhibitor it doesn't help me help you fall asleep faster but it raises your heart rate it will be disruptive throughout the night

And then finding other things that are not on the screen. So I'm an avid reader. So my wind down experience usually is reading something, really helping me transition from that day to night. But even if you don't have a bright bed, doing a mindfulness exercise, doing something like calm or headspace,

really is very effective to help in you transition and get into a place that your heart rate's lower, your respiration is better, and you're really ready, getting your body ready for that recovery and rejuvenation that you need, what we call restorative sleep.

Amazing. We sourced some questions from our audience about sleep. It's a topic that we've discussed before on this show. It's always a popular one. You volunteered to step up and answer them. So you ready to go?

Yeah, I'm ready. I'm excited. Thank you. Okay, first one comes from Elizabeth, and she writes, I work in a high-stakes finance job where the culture rewards people who work late and start early. It's clear I'll be expected to sacrifice sleep in order to climb the ladder. I've also heard that successful people sleep less regularly

But then that good sleep is the key to peak performance. So I got to know, am I sabotaging my career and future earnings by skimping on sleep or is pushing through exhaustion necessary to get ahead? It's a great question. And when we hear all the time, I do feel really fortunate that we're building this company in 2025 and not 2005, because I do think there's a lot more potential

data and we demystified how important sleep is. So if we think about all the things that you can do for yourself to live a healthier life, I really believe sleep is the foundation of wellness. You are more prone to eat right. You are more prone to exercise. Your cognitive ability is just way, way better. You're much more productive if you get a great night's sleep. So the short answer to that question is make sure you keep sleep a priority. And

And if possible, really try to get that seven to nine hours of sleep every single night, even if it means you're working crazy hours the rest of the day, because your productivity will be higher. There's tons of research that supports that. And not getting enough sleep, there's no making up for it on the weekends. That's a myth too. So you can't just...

get five hours a night monday through thursday and sleep 12 hours on saturday it doesn't work that way you really have to consistently stick to the routines try to get a good night's sleep every night

And I'm sure we've all felt it. The days that you get a poor night's sleep, if you just kind of take some time to examine it, you probably didn't get to the gym that day. Or if you did, it was a lot harder when you did. You probably didn't eat quite as well. You probably didn't feel as effective as work. So I think intuitively, we all know this stuff, but the body of research, the body of knowledge just changes.

really supports that seven to nine hours of uninterrupted, restful, restorative sleep is just so incredibly important. Yeah. And I think if we ever had any doubt about that, we should just go back and pay attention to babies. Because when babies get that long block of sleep, they're just so much better the next day, right? They're happier,

more alert, more easy to be around people. And I'm sure that's true of the rest of us as well. Teresa writes in and she says, when I'm stressed about money, whether it's making rent, paying off debt, or navigating job insecurity, I often lie awake for hours. It's a vicious cycle. Financial stress leads to bad sleep, which actually seems to make me worse at my job.

What are the best techniques to sleep better despite financial anxiety? And is there any way to break this cycle for good? And let me just actually expand on Teresa's question. Let's not limit it to financial anxiety. What's the best way to sleep if you're anxious?

I think the number one impediment to sleep for most adult Americans is stress and anxiety. So whether it's financial stress, whether it's life events, whether it's worrying about your kids or elderly parents,

where you tend to kind of push, many of us tend to push through the day. And then when you lay down and try to get to sleep, all of that kind of rushes in, right? So, and that can make it even harder because you know you need to get a good night's sleep and you get more and more stressed because you're like, I have to get to sleep. I have to get to sleep. I have all these things to do. The best way to break this cycle is

is to dedicate yourself to things that we know that works, which is basically mindfulness techniques. And the fancy term for it is CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy, which we know works really well. But it sounds fancy. And if you think about it in a way that is too...

is too complex, it's hard to repeat, right? So I think really finding something that's delightful and accessible for you as an individual is really important. The two best known products on the market are Calm and Headspace. They've got great content, works really well. It's very inexpensive to access. And we've built an experience into our product called BrightWave that integrates not just sound,

or meditation tracks, but also motion, which I really think is a one plus one is three experience, but not everybody has a bright bed at home. So you can do that either by researching CBT, finding these routines that work for you, or using one of these apps that do work really well and help with that wind down experience, help with that restfulness, help slow your mind, help gets you into these deep breathing techniques that work really well. Yeah, sometimes I think if you find a deep breathing technique that works,

It can be really effective on its own. I've tried the 4-7-8 breathing. There's a whole bunch of different ones, but it's really just about slowing yourself down to the point where you can let your mind let go and fall asleep.

Absolutely. And not just for sleep, but during the middle of the day. I mean, these are techniques that work and work really well. Yeah. Oh, boy. 100%. We've got one more question. This is from Chelsea. And Chelsea says, in my industry, the people who put in the longest hours are usually the ones who get ahead. But I've personally seen friends suffering from burnout due to chronic depression.

sleep deprivation i don't want to fall into the same boat so i'm curious

If there's any data about how prioritizing sleep may actually benefit your financial outcome in the long run. I'm also wondering, she says, if you've got any advice for how to inspire a culture shift at my company so that sleep can be seen more as an investment instead of as a weakness. That's so interesting. I remember a few years back, some companies putting in napping pods. Yeah.

Again, you know, I'm really happy we're building this and having this discussion now because the data overwhelmingly says that you should prioritize sleep and it drives productivity. You know, in a recent Sleep Foundation study, it said that fatigue costs employers almost $2,000 annually per employee, for example.

Poor sleep contributed to over two extra days of absenteeism. So there is a business case for sleep and for changing this culture of just work 18, 19, 20 hours a day. Also, we know based on the research that

your mind really starts to shut down and your productivity diminishes incredibly after being awake for 16 hours. And so we're starting to see this in fields like medical and banking become recognized that there is a tipping point where your productivity drops off and you're

The research also shows that at a certain point, your decision making under fatigue is similar to being drunk, for example. There really is a drop off. And I think that employers in many fields, in some ways, tech maybe led the way with the sleep pods and nap pods, at least in experimenting with what works. But recognizing that sleep is really important to get the most out of your workers and having a very productive 8, 10, maybe 12 hour days.

is a heck of a lot better for business than a unproductive 15 or 16 hour day. Fantastic. Luke, thank you so much for the great advice. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for taking the time and for the great questions from your listeners. I really appreciate it.

Absolutely. I also just want to tell everybody that as part of our partnership with Bright, you all can use the code HERMONEY at bright.com. It's spelled B-R-Y-T-E to get $500 off the Bright Balance model and $750 off Bright Balance Pro and Pro Conform. Just use the code HERMONEY at checkout on bright.com.

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