HerMoney Classic: The Lazy Women's Guide To Cooking With Melissa Clark
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Hey everybody, it's Jean Chatzky. Welcome to Her Money. I don't know about you, but I am getting tired of spending so much money at the grocery store. In fact, I was just having a conversation about this yesterday. My husband and I went out to a fantastic restaurant in New York City over the weekend. I mean, it was really good. We went with friends. We had a wonderful time. And yet, I would have rather cooked at home because the prices were just so off the chart yesterday.

It didn't feel worth it. I mean, the bar for eating in restaurants has just gotten so high that most of the time, I would rather just cook. It's not just me. According to Axios, we are spending more than 11% of our disposable income on food. The last time we were doing this was three decades ago in 1991. We are literally eating up everything.

our money. But cooking is one way to help you save some money, save some time, make you healthier. And if you're like me, it'll also make you happier. I love cooking for people, but it'll also make you feel like you're doing a good thing financially. So during the holiday season, when we're spending a lot of time cooking, I wanted to bring back one of my

favorite episodes. This is with Melissa Clark, who is a New York Times food columnist, where she writes the popular column, A Good Appetite. She is also sitting in as a restaurant reviewer these days. She's the author of 40 cookbooks, an astounding number. Her latest is Dinner in One.

exceptional and easy one pan meals. Here's my conversation with Melissa. And Melissa, thanks so much for being here. Oh, thanks for having me. Both Kelly, our producer, and I cook at least one of your recipes about each week. So we feel like we know you.

And we owe you. But for those of our listeners who don't, let me just start with a little bit about you. You were born in Brooklyn, raised in Brooklyn, live in Brooklyn with your husband and your daughter. Where did this love of food and cooking come from?

Well, I mean, it did come from Brooklyn because my parents were amazing cooks, but it also came from our family vacations every summer. My parents were psychiatrists, which back in the 80s meant that they had, they took August off because that's what people, psychiatrists used to take the whole month of August off, which they don't do anymore, which I think is good for their patients. But if you needed one in August, you were in trouble.

And we would decamp the whole family. We would exchange our Brooklyn house for a house somewhere in France. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And this was in the 80s. So imagine this was pre-internet. There was a book that came out, a home exchange book. And we would write letters on that blue airline stationery. I don't know if you remember that. I do. And we would write letters to complete strangers and exchange our house with their house. And they'd come to...

you know, 1980s Brooklyn, which was not like current Brooklyn. And we would go to some charming little town in the middle of Provence. And it was fantastic. And we spent a lot of time cooking, you know, going to markets, looking at ingredients. And I really developed

a deep love of cooking and also of pristine ingredients. It was all part of the same thing. Going to the markets would just inspire me. You know, you'd want to buy everything and having a place to go cook it, having a kitchen just made it so much better because you could see the thing, you can see the beautiful tomatoes, bring them home and then actually eat them for lunch. Oh my gosh, I am so envious. This sounds like everybody's dream summer vacation. So a fun fact about me is that I actually went to

cooking school and a surprising fact about you is that you didn't.

So how did cooking and food writing turn into your career? You know, sometimes I think that I regret that I didn't go to cooking school, but other times I think maybe it's better because it puts me more in the head of the average home cook. I mean, I know a lot and I've been learning a lot and I consider myself a student. I always learn. But because I didn't have that formal training like you had, maybe in a way it helps my writing. It helps me kind of

understand the questions people would have because I used to have them too. I remember a lot of, I mean, I'm very self-taught. I did work in restaurants, a little bit in the kitchen, but mostly in the front of the house. I did a lot of waitressing and hostessing and co-checking. And I learned from my parents, but I never, like I couldn't debone a chicken. Like I just couldn't. So I would never ask my readers to do that. I actually can debone a chicken. I'll bet you can. I can.

Although it's been a very, very long time and I would much prefer not to do it anymore. And I went to...

cooking school with the idea that maybe I would be able to be Molly O'Neill, who was one of your predecessors at the New York Times one day. And what I learned was that I gained 20 pounds and I didn't need to spend that much time around food. And so back to money writing, it was for me. But I am an avid home cook. And I do think it is one of those things that's wildly misunderstood that

The Cut did a great interview with you back in 2017 when your first Instant Pot book, Dinner in an Instant, came out. And you said you're an advocate for the home cook and it's because you think you're lazy, which is so surprising because—

People who don't cook often don't cook because they say it's too much work or at least they think it's too much work. So explain how lazy works in your favor. Well, I try really hard to I mean, I don't try really hard. I just I'm it's not something I'm even conscious of. I am.

I just do this on automatic pilot. I'm always looking to eliminate steps in a recipe. I'm always looking to eliminate cleanup. That's the big thing is cleanup. If I can use one fewer bowl, one less bowl, if I could do everything in one pan, I'm going to be happier because it's just easier. So that's just sort of a natural process.

habit of mine is to look for shortcuts. But at the same time, I'm also extremely passionate about getting the most flavor out of my ingredients. So if I have to stand there and cook something, if I need 30 minutes to make sure that I am browning every surface of all of the meat that's going into my stew, I will do that. However, if I don't have to do it, if I've tested the recipe and I can say, well, you know what, if I brown two sides, that's actually going to be enough, then I'll do that.

So flavor will always be first. But if flavor is on par, if it's equal with doing taking a shortcut, I'll take the shortcut. There are a lot of other excuses that people have as well for the reasons that they don't cook. I mean, some people say it doesn't make sense to cook for one. What do you tell them?

Oh, I think if you don't like to cook, then I agree with you. It doesn't make sense to cook for one. If you're not finding pleasure out of the act of cooking, then don't do it. I mean, I would say that across the board, there are so many ways to get around it. And if it makes you sad, then just don't cook or do the easiest thing that you can get away with. Especially if you're not that concerned with what you're eating, you know, if you're eating for fuel. But if you love cooking,

great food. And if you find some joy in some parts of cooking, or actually a lot of people I know, they say, I love to cook on the weekends, but I don't like to cook after work.

And you know what? If you love it on the weekends, you probably will love it after work too. You just have to figure out a way to find the joy in it. I think a lot of people try to bite off more than they can chew on the weekdays. They're like, oh, I want to make something. And they reach too far and then they're frustrated because on the weekdays, you just don't have that much time and you're already tired because you've worked a full day. So what I say is,

And this is actually something I write about in my cook, in my cookbook, Dinner and Changing the Game. I say, find the joy in cooking dinner every single time you cook. If you're not in the mood, don't do it. Because when you're cooking, you're not in the mood. It never comes out good. It just doesn't taste good. But if you, if there's some part of you that's like, you know what, I'm going to find joy in the rhythm of chopping. I'm going to put my favorite music on and maybe give yourself permission to like be in the moment. Like, okay,

Kick everyone out of your kitchen if you want to, if you need the time alone, or invite everybody in and have them sit and talk to you while you cook, which is what I do. And just enjoy it. Give yourself that half an hour to not check your phone and to not worry about emails and to just enjoy the process of watching your food transform into something delicious to eat. Because I really do feel like if you keep it simple, pick a simple recipe and just be in the moment when you're cooking it, you will find joy.

self-fulfillment. And that's going to be better than sitting on the couch watching a TV show and you're going to feed your family. And you know what? They're going to be really happy because you've cooked food for them. And even if you're by yourself, you're going to be really happy because you've cooked food for you. And then you can take it and sit on the couch and watch your show after. I love that. And what I also seem to be hearing a little bit is this sense that

When it comes to ideas of what to make for dinner, you don't seem like you're ever at a loss. I read that you come up with 65 recipes a year for The Times. And when you're writing a cookbook, and let me just repeat that you've written 40, which is an astonishing number, then you can average 75 recipes in six weeks. I mean, there are weeks where I do not know what I want to make tomorrow.

So I have a stack of cookbooks. But beyond that, how do you come up with your ideas? I mean, when it's your job, you just kind of, you know, sit down and just think it through. For a cookbook, cookbooks tend to be very formulaic. So when I'm writing, when I know I need to write 75 recipes in six weeks, I

I need to lay out how many of them need to be breakfast items, how many of them need to be side dishes, how many chicken recipes I want. So I come up with the basic blueprint and then I fill it in. And the way that I fill it in is a lot of it is, what do I feel like eating right now? What am I in the mood for? What's in season all year round? Because if I'm writing a cookbook in a short six-week period, I'm just in one season. But I have to be thinking about seasons for the entire year. So

I have to think, okay, what are my spring recipes? What are my fall recipes? What are my winter recipes? And then as you start to narrow it down, it starts to fall into place. Like I think, well, if I need 10 chicken recipes and then let's say I want to do two of them for winter or maybe three for winter, three for spring, say 12 recipes, three for each season, then it becomes almost like, well, it's so hard to, I only have three spring spots. Oh my God, do I do chicken with...

artichokes or asparagus? Or do I have room for both? Or where am I going to fit my spring greens in? So as you start to break it down, you don't like anything. When you see a big job and you break it down, it just becomes easier. So that's the way I approach a cookbook.

In terms of cooking what I want to make for dinner that night, it's all about really just listening to my belly. What am I hungry for? What am I in the mood for? And then looking in the fridge and seeing what's on hand or what I can stop and get at the store. I vote for the chicken with artichokes because I made the chicken with artichokes from the comfort in an instant book and it's quite good.

Quite delicious. Oh, good. Yeah. I want to actually go back to the cost element, the cost considerations, because you're talking a lot about wonderful ingredients. But before I get there, we're going to take a quick break.

Her Money is proudly sponsored by Edelman Financial Engines. Preparing for the unexpected tomorrow is what gives us the peace of mind to live a life of freedom today. Protecting your family is about so much more than just saving and investing. Having a conversation about your wealth is an important part of your protection puzzle. Explore your options with a complimentary wealth checkup.

Visit plan EFE.com slash her money or call 833-304-PLAN. We are happily talking with the New York Times' Melissa Clark, author of many of your favorite cookbooks and mine.

I get, especially from the sheet pan cookbook and the instant pot cookbooks, simplicity and time are major considerations when you're building recipes. How do you factor in cost? That's a really good question. You know, I don't because I am really good at rationalizing. Anytime I want to spend money on something, I will figure out a way to rationalize the cost. So my big thing is it's cheaper than eating out.

And I mean, we actually don't really go out to dinner very often. I have to go out a certain amount for work. But for the most part, we cook all the time. I love to cook. So even when I've cooked all day long, I still want to cook at night because I love it. So I'm definitely in the right profession. But so I don't think about the cost and I don't mind buying salmon for $30 a pound because I know that even if I buy a pound and a half, 45 bucks, that is still much cheaper.

than going out and spending that amount of money for three entrees at a restaurant for my family, for my daughter and my husband and myself.

So I guess that's how I look at it. I don't stint on ingredients. I don't look for ways to save money. I look for quality. It's really important to me. That said, I do do certain things like I have a CSA membership, which is it's also called a farm box. It's community supported agriculture. And I pay in advance to a farmer and I get vegetables, fruits and vegetables all year long.

And it ends up being much cheaper than if I would buy those things individually. So I'm not doing that necessarily to save money. I'm doing it because I get amazing quality. But at the same time, I am saving money. So I guess, I mean, I'll just buy one fewer pair of shoes and I'll get that salmon. I totally get where your priorities are. When you look around your kitchen, are there any other products? And they don't have to be edible, by the way, but cooking products.

implements or tools that you would spend money on every single time? Every time I cheap out on something, I regret it in terms of my kitchen appliances because I use my kitchen. I cook in my home kitchen and that's where I do all my recipe testing. But I use it like a professional kitchen. I'm in there all the time. I'm using stuff very heavily and it needs to last. And I just don't want, I mean, I don't want to replace things. So the things I feel that are very important to spend money on, your skillets, your cookware, your knives.

except for your paring knives. I say buy cheap paring knives. I get my paring knives for $11 each. I can't even remember the brand. And then I use them for six months and throw them out. And they just don't stay sharp enough. I watch really carefully. What are the things that I'm going to want to replace because it's just not worth it? And what are the things that I want to make sure will last me for years? Cheap hands are really inexpensive.

They're 20 bucks each. You can get them for $5 each, but the $20 ones, it's not a lot of money, but they're going to last that much longer. So I guess I'm always going to probably go for quality. Every once in a while, my husband will say, when we renovated our kitchen, we actually, that was a huge expense because it's renovating a kitchen. And we really had a small budget.

And we cheaped out on a lot of things. And it's 10 years later. And every one of those cheap decisions, especially the floor, we regret so much. And not that we could have done it differently, but maybe we should have. Maybe we should have waited a couple of years and saved some more money and then done it right. Because especially when you cheap out on a floor, you can't really replace your kitchen floor very easily. So I guess I wish I had sort of thought about where are the places I can save money that won't matter that I could replace? And where are the things that actually I should invest in

smartly, wisely, that are going to be harder to replace. All right. We have just a few minutes left. I want to do a very quick speed round. What do you always have in your pantry? Anchovies, lemons, garlic. Fridge? Lettuce, herbs, some kind of herbs, milk, yogurt.

And, you know, I keep my root veg in the fridge too, like turnips, all my winter veg. So I always have a lot of different vegetables all the time. Should I be keeping my potatoes in the fridge? This is not part of the speed round, but sometimes my potatoes, they sit around, they get eyes.

Yeah, it's not great to keep them. Actually, I don't keep, this is the only food I don't keep in the fridge. I keep my turnips and my beets and my kohlrabi in the fridge. Potatoes, here's the thing about potatoes. They really get eyes no matter what you do. I mean, even if you put them in the darkest, deepest cabinet and you put them in a paper bag, mine still get eyes. So I've stopped buying potatoes. I don't keep potatoes on hand. They're not a pantry item for me. I buy them when I need them because they're just, I find the quality to be better. So that is a new thing for me. I used to say potatoes were a pantry item. Not anymore.

What do you always have in the freezer? My freezer is a very scary place. My husband says I have dead bodies in there, but not quite. I always have leftover chilies and soups. I make extra batches whenever I cook up a big stew or a chili or a soup, and I put lunch-sized containers in the freezer so that if I work in the office, I can grab one and go to work, or my husband can reheat one when I'm not home.

Those are great to have. I always have frozen berries. Frozen berries, they make an instant dessert or I can use them in smoothies. I have extra butter. If I have any butter, I have lard and extra duck fat. So I have a lot of fats in the freezer. I always have bacon. It's very important. And I think I usually have, I like to have sausages. That's another good thing to keep in your freezer because they defrost quickly. And it's one of those, I have nothing in the house for dinner, but you have sausages. So

Amazing. What are you cooking tonight? Actually, tonight I'm making sausages. I bought some rabbit sausages because my butcher had them on sale. I was like, oh, rabbit sausages. So rabbit sausages, red cabbage and potatoes. Sounds amazing on this very cold day. Melissa Clark, thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with us. I will head home and cook something in my Instant Pot.

That sounds wonderful. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Thanks so much for joining me today on Her Money. If you loved this episode, please give us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. We always value your feedback. And if you want to keep the financial conversations going, join me for a deeper dive.

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