The Ultimate Layoff Survival Guide with Employment Attorney Peter Rahbar
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If you're laid off, it's not about you. It's about something the company's going through and this is how they chose to deal with it. So don't take it too personally. Don't spend too much time sitting, feeling bad for yourself. Take a day or two and then get going. Hey, everybody. Thanks so much for joining us today on Her Money. I'm Jean Chatzky. And today...

to talk about something that I find myself thinking about every time I sign on to LinkedIn lately. We're going to talk about layoffs. In March, layoffs hit highs that we haven't seen since the early days of the pandemic. And while much of that is due to what's going on in the government, what's happening at the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE, the fear is

that this is spreading nationwide. And that is actually happening. Nationwide layoffs are up by 103% from the same period last year. That's according to data from Challenger, Gray, and Christmas. And some of the companies that have recently let people go include Volvo, Google, Meta, Amazon, Mattel, ABC News, CNN. I could go on. I won't. And of course, the big question many of us

ask when we hear news like this is, what about me? Is my job going to disappear this year or soon-ish? That's where my guest today comes in. Peter Rabar is an employment attorney. He's a workplace issues expert. He's the founder of the Rabar Group.

And I asked him to come on here today to walk us through everything that we need to know, whether we are prepping for a potential layoff or whether we're trying to navigate one that's already happened. We are going to take a very quick break. Back in a sec.

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and use promo code HERMONEY. That's H-E-R-M-O-N-E-Y. You'll also get a free 30-day money-back guarantee and a free three-year warranty. That's an $84 value. Go to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HERMONEY. I am talking with Peter Rabar. He is an employment attorney. Peter, welcome to the show. Thanks for tackling this for us. Thanks for having me, Jean. It's great to be here.

So let's start with the folks who maybe they're hearing whispers already. Maybe their company has stopped hiring. They're hearing that budgets are tightening or noticing that people are quietly being let go. What are the top three things that you do when you sense that a layoff is coming?

Well, it's definitely not a time to bury your head in the sand. And most layoffs do not come out of nowhere. As you said, there are usually signs. And in the time that we're in right now where there's tremendous uncertainty for corporate leaders and that uncertainty triggers problems.

fears of spending and therefore cost cutting and one of the first places corporate leaders cut costs is human capital so I Think we will see a wave of layoffs coming I've been reading about the same ones you mentioned in your introduction But there's more that are happening real time in my practice so I would say everybody should be paying attention to this issue right now and everybody should have a plan and

But certainly if you see it going on around you, there's a couple things I would suggest. First of all, don't go around and start asking if you're going to be laid off. That's a good way to get yourself on the list or project some lack of confidence in your own position. And you definitely don't want to do that, especially if you love your job.

Instead, what I would do is focus on yourself and your positioning for your next opportunity, whatever it may be. So if you've been meaning to polish up that resume, now's a really good time to do it. If you've been meaning to update your LinkedIn profile, great. Go ahead and do it because that's the number one place recruiters look. If you've been meaning to catch coffee with some colleagues in your industry, great.

Definitely start doing that. These are all things you could do while you're in a job. If you've been thinking about starting your own business, work on that business plan. Do it all while you're still employed, while you have time. And so when the layoff hits, if it hits,

You've already gotten a head start on your colleagues and on your search for the next opportunity. When you said if you're noticing signs, what kind of signs should we be on the lookout for? What are the things that start happening before layoffs hit? Depending on the company, a lot of different things could be happening. So like I was just talking to a client recently who said all of a sudden there was a travel situation.

ban or a severe travel cut down at that company, which means the company's already looking at cutting costs. And that means that down the line, they could be looking at layoffs. That could be a hint. Or if your manager's meeting with HR every other day or at a pattern that is unusual, that could be a sign. If

performance management starts ratcheting up across the board with you and your colleagues, that might be a sign of trying to get people out before a layoff comes along. All of these things are signs. It depends from company to company. It may be even as direct as something like a manager coming to you and asking how happy you are and whether you're thinking about doing other things. Those conversations are unusual, but if you're a senior manager

That is one way to sort of weed out some people before a layoff hits so that the numbers are smaller. And publicity wise, it's better for the company. Let's say those things start to happen. You start to get a little suspicious. You love this job. You really this was the one you were waiting for. You do not want to leave it or lose it.

How do you position yourself best inside the company in order to stay off the list? I've received this question many times because contrary to what we hear in the news all the time, people do really love their jobs. There are people out there who really love their jobs and have invested heavily in their careers. And I would say if you love your job and you want to stay, then really make yourself indispensable.

And make sure that you remind your manager of how valuable you truly are. So be very visible. As I said at the outset, don't bury your head in sand. Be very visible. Work harder than ever. And then when you accomplish things, make sure everybody knows about it in a professional way, not a showy way. Be proactive in reaching out to your manager to ask about things.

If there's additional work you could do or additional projects you could take on or things like that to show that you're a really valuable contributor and someone that they would be remiss to do without going forward in the leaner organization. That's my number one tip really is to make yourself really stand out. The making yourself stand out thing.

Part of it is not something I think that many women have trouble with. It's the making sure everybody knows that women have trouble with, right? We don't shout our accomplishments from the rooftops. Many of us are overachievers and

Maybe we just don't claim the credit that we should claim. What's the professional way to do this without seeming too aggressive, too brown nosy, annoying? How do we do this in a way that garners respect rather than the opposite?

Well, first of all, I want to say most of my clients are women. So, you know, speaking from experience who, unfortunately, at work just feel that doing the work is enough. And it's not always up to them, right? Sometimes these opportunities are closed off to meet with

men or executives, mostly men, usually in most companies, to share these accomplishments and talk about them in a more casual setting. And the formality of talking about your accomplishments is definitely awkward for people, as you say. So I would find natural ways to do it. And my number one tip for that is really to just

be a good communicator and be a steady communicator and make sure your manager knows what you're working on and knows what phases you're in with specific projects that are not only important to you, but you should be explaining to them why it's important to them.

And as you reach the accomplishment phase or the closing phase of whatever you're working on, make sure they know that and ask them if they want to be involved in any way. I mean, I think collaborating, communicating, that's the most natural way to do it rather than sending a note at the end about a contract or a project they didn't even know about. And then maybe they get upset that they didn't know about it in the first place and they would have liked to. And so I would...

advise over communicating and finding the right cadence to do that. I think that's right. I think if you have smaller bits of communication on an ongoing basis, it keeps you front and center with your boss.

You get the chance to ask for a little feedback along the way. You might get the chance to ask for a little advice, which sometimes can be a way to really grow the relationship and the mentorship that's going along. And if you do it all the time, it doesn't feel as odd. I'm thinking back to when I was at Smart Money Magazine and I was in and out of my boss's office

All the time. Mostly because I was excited about the stories that I was working on. And I sort of wanted to share what I was finding as I was finding it. Now, was I annoying? Quite possibly. I doubt it. I doubt it. No, quite possibly. But there was always this sense of the project moving ahead. And that's how you want to be seen, whatever you're working on. Right. And when it comes to the layoff, ultimately, there are humans making these decisions, right?

and they're looking at pieces of papers or screens with names on them. And you want to be more than a name to the people who are making those decisions. You want them to think about, oh, well, so-and-so was just in my office and they're really great. My priorities are her priorities and she's really great at communicating. I don't know what I would do without her. I'm not putting her on this list. I mean, ultimately, that's what you want to go through the manager's mind. And trust me,

Those are the things they think about in these situations. It's not just numbers and rankings and positions. It's value and how this new...

leaner organization is going to function. So it's a helpful tactic. What sort of protections exist for us? Are there overlooked protections that employees need to be aware of that are legal or professional or monetary that we should know about in advance?

of a round of layoffs making their way through our companies. And I should tell everybody, Peter is an attorney, but also was an in-house attorney at the Hearst Corporation where my husband worked for many years. That's how we know each other. But you've helped me through different employment-related matters through the years, and that's why I just knew that you'd be a good person to call on for this.

Thanks. I mean, one thing I bring to my clients is the 360 perspective. I've seen it from all angles. I've represented companies, I've represented individuals. So I've seen it all. But I mean, layoffs are pretty loaded legal situations. So I would say on the company side,

These are not actions taken lightly, or at least they shouldn't be. And you mentioned Doge earlier and the way they did layoffs should not be followed by any manager anywhere in any industry without thought, without care, without regard for the employees. So let's put those to the side. But in a typical layoff, there's a lot of legal issues involved because there are a lot of laws implemented.

at play. Some are related to notice. But in a typical layoff, there's still concerns about, are the choices discriminatory? And even if they're not overtly discriminatory, like let's lay off all the employees over 40, do the choices somehow end up being discriminatory

impactful to one group more than another. So on the company side, there should be an analysis done to look at those things. And that typically takes weeks, sometimes months of analysis about the selections and who is there and who's left.

For an individual, you have a lot of rights as well. And so you just flip the script and say, are there any funny circumstances here? I noticed that all my colleagues who are female are being let go and the males aren't being let go. Or I notice all the older employees are being let go and the younger ones aren't being let go. Or I just...

started a maternity leave and somehow I'm on this list or I just filed a complaint. I would say another suggestion which I should have mentioned before given what I do is if you sense a layoff is coming up and you know that there might be some legal issues in your universe, you should also start scouting for a lawyer.

who you could talk to, when and if it happens. And, you know, sometimes there's things we can do in layoffs and sometimes not. What kind of issues would make me call a lawyer? I mean, you mentioned the parental leave issue, right? Is remote work an issue? Is, I mean, we know age is an issue. We know gender may be an issue. But what other things are the kind of, I guess, red flags that would cause you to call an attorney? Sure.

Right. Well, the top one I get a call about and sadly, recently I've gotten a lot of calls about are women who are out on leave after childbirth leave. And so that's a top issue that comes up and one that I know employers struggle with. And just because you're on leave, it doesn't mean you can't be laid off.

but it can't be the reason why you're being laid off. So the employer can't say, you know, we can't handle all these leaves. We need people to be here. So let's lay off all the people on leave. That would be illegal.

I would say the second issue I get questions about is age. And if you're over 40 and you're laid off and you're offered severance, you're supposed to be given 45 days to consider the severance offer. And there should be a list attached to your severance agreement. There will be an agreement. There should be a list attached to it of everybody who is laid off and who is kept and what their ages are. And...

When I get that list from a client, we analyze it to see if there are problems statistically, or we look and see who the other people in their position were that were laid off and what their ages are. So I'd say age is a really big topic that comes up. And then, of course, gender, race, sexuality.

disability, all of the issues that are covered by the anti-discrimination laws would be relevant in a layoff situation. We're going to talk about what we do if and when a layoff actually happens. But before we do that, we are going to take a very quick break. Back in a sec.

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I am talking with Peter Rabar. He is an employment attorney. He is helping us understand exactly what steps to take if you think a layoff is coming or even if a layoff actually does happen because unfortunately this is just the environment that we're living in right now. And I would say that this is one of those shows where

where if you've got somebody in your life that is going through this or suspects that they will be going through this, we are getting very tactical for a reason. So this is one that you're going to want to pass along. So Peter,

If a layoff does happen, right? And I was talking to a friend, her 24-year-old son in his first job has been told over and over again what a great job he's doing laid off this week, along with a whole bunch of other people. And they lined them up at the door.

And one by one, they went in and they were told by their immediate boss and somebody from HR, and they had to hand over their computer and their identification, and they were escorted out of the building. And that was it, went home. Yikes. Yeah, terrible. And this is so not what you want a first employment experience to be. Yeah.

What do you do if a layoff does happen? What are the first, second, and third things that you have to do to preserve your financial footing and start charting a path forward? Well, I'll give you a legal and non-legal answer to this. The first thing I would say is don't panic. And a lot of people do. And that's understandable. Obviously, it's a very distressing and difficult thing to deal with, especially if it's happening out of the blue. But don't panic.

you will be okay and you will get through it. So secondly, I would say you have rights and you need to be careful about them. And so you need to understand the terms of what's happening. So when is your job ending? Sometimes people are told of layoffs that don't take effect for months. Some companies announce layoffs and then don't do them for months, which I think is really cruel, but something like meta does commonly happen.

So understand the terms of what's happening. When is your final date? What are you being offered in terms of severance? Now, most companies will pay severance in a layoff. They don't have to by law. I'm asked that question all the time, but most do. Are you going to be given health insurance? You need to understand you're going to transition from regular health insurance to COBRA, which is just your same plan under a different name at a much higher rate.

So hopefully your company's paying for that for some period of time. What happens to your 401k and other retirement plans? They're yours, okay? Whether it's a 401k or it's a pension, it's yours. A lot of people ask me, can they take them from me?

But if you're at a company where there's a match, you should ask, you know, is the match being given to me? Because some companies do matches at the end of the year. Some do them along the way. You should ask and understand that. You should ask about equipment. You should ask about unemployment. What specifically do you want to ask about unemployment? With respect to unemployment insurance, you know, you're being laid off. So you're eligible for unemployment insurance.

The question is, when is your last day so you can file? And do you have the appropriate paperwork you need to file? So in New York, there's a notice that you're supposed to be given with your termination. And so you'll need that notice. And then lastly, I would say, take time to review the agreement. So don't sign it on the spot. No one can make you sign it on the spot. We watch a lot of TV shows where there's

pressure to sign agreements or they're valid. That's not real. As I said earlier, if you're over the age of 40, you should have

at least 21 or in most cases 45 days to sign. If you're under 40, there will be some period to sign. It may or may not be that long depending on the employer's practices. But you'll want to look at the agreement and see what it says. And most importantly, you want to make sure that everything you were promised is there, but also that there's no restriction on you finding another job.

So what does that mean? That means if you have a non-compete or something similar, hopefully that is wiped out as well. And if it's not, you should ask. But depending on your level, you may want to get that reviewed by a lawyer. I, of course, encourage that. And as we mentioned earlier, if there's some fishiness around your termination or your selection,

then, you know, reach out to someone like me, let's talk about it. I talk to people all the time. And a lot of times I tell them, no, there's nothing I can do for you. But sometimes there is. How negotiable are these severance agreements? So I talked to

little bit about the 24-year-old I know who just got laid off. I also know a 50-year-old woman who got laid off after 30 years at the same company. This wasn't this year, it was actually last year. But it was another large round of layoffs. And she hired an attorney and negotiated her

exit package. She got more salary, more health insurance. There were things that they didn't put on the table originally that they were willing to compromise on. How do you know when you have that leverage? You need to talk to a lawyer to figure that out. Frankly, the answer is really going to be dependent on

Are there any legal circumstances around your termination that the company may be concerned about? In the case of a 30-year employee, there may be some additional sympathy there and recognition for the difficulty of moving on for them. So would I talk to someone who was at a company for 30 years and was laid off? Yeah, I probably would, because in those cases, you can at least have a discussion with

for the 24 year old who's been there for a year and there's no legal issues really around it. I mean, there's not going to be anything I can do for that person most likely. But you need to talk to someone and this is really important. You need to talk to someone who actually knows what they're talking about in this area. Okay. So what a lot of people do is they go talk to their friends, they talk to their family. People are not lawyers, people are not in HR. Maybe one's been laid off, but they have no training.

Talk to someone who knows. So talk to a lawyer. If you don't want to talk to a lawyer, talk to someone who works in HR or is an experienced business person and get a sense of whether there's something there to talk about with the company. I would also say limit the circle of people you talk to. Don't talk to like dozens of people because they're all going to tell you different things. And frankly, most of them are going to tell you things you want to hear because they feel bad for you.

And so really limit your circle. You have a limited amount of energy. You need to spend some of it figuring out the severance situation. You need to spend the rest of it taking care of yourself and thinking about the next opportunity, which are really important things, and setting yourself up in the right way to do that. When we talk about the specific boundaries,

benefits that are in a severance package. I just want to go through some of them and talk about how they're typically being treated right now. I mean, when we talk about dollars on the table, is there a common formula that companies are using and that if you're not offered it, you should be asking for? Is it a week for every year? Is it two weeks for every year? Is there math

Absolutely. The standard, I would say the market is really two weeks per year of service with a cap at a year. So I've had people call me, you know, work for 40 years at a company and said, I was only offered 52 weeks, I should get 80. And I said, Well, that doesn't really happen that often.

So two weeks per year is the most common formula, but different companies do it differently. I think one I've seen pretty frequently over the last two years is one month for everyone and then one week per year of service on top of that.

so that everyone gets something. But usually they're capped at a year. I know when the media industry was crashing several years ago, there were companies that really took that opportunity to reduce severance and cap it at six months and other things. Some of that stuck around, but the two weeks per year is pretty common. What about bonuses? Let's say you work for a company that typically pays a bonus. You've gone halfway through the year and you get laid off.

Can you respectfully ask for half your bonus? You absolutely should ask for it. A lot of companies will start off by saying we're not going to pay a bonus in that situation. I think that should be the expectation. But you should absolutely ask for it, especially if you've done something significant in that first half of the year. Or like I have clients who meet their full revenue goal in the first half of the year.

And if that's the case, then you should certainly be asking for it. But this is something like I typically negotiate when I help people with offer letters and employment agreements. If there ever is a termination without cause or layoff, then you're paying me a prorated bonus. That is a really good point. I want to come back to that, Peter, and talk about when you should negotiate for your exit going in. But just one more question on why.

what you can expect on the way out. How about things like references? Again, this 24-year-old poor kid who got laid off immediately wrote a very nice email to his supervisor and said, I really enjoyed working with you. I hope that I can count on you for a reference or something to that effect.

He didn't get an answer. Oh, gosh. This story had such a good beginning. I know. But the reason that he didn't get an answer, and I know this because his mother is my friend, is he said, well, I've heard when layoffs have happened in the past, they tell the bosses, don't talk to them anymore. Right? So they were instructed by this company not to answer these emails. Right.

But how do you secure those things? Because you're going to need them. Boy, that was a really sad story. I would say there's a couple of things, though, that I want to address in it. So to go to your question first, most companies will have a policy that says no positive references for anybody because they're too worried about liability. And here they are in a situation where they're laying off dozens, hundreds of people, whatever it may be, and they can't keep track of

Who's saying what about who? So they'd just rather nothing be said. And they just hand out a number to verify your employment. So your new employer can call and say, was so-and-so employed there? And they say, yes, so-and-so was employed here for this date through that date. And this was their title.

And that's all they'll say. There are companies who do it differently. And sometimes if you have a really good relationship and some of these layoffs, especially this year, I think you're going to be really difficult and like not anticipated. You may have a sympathetic manager who's willing to do it. And you should always ask. You should definitely ask.

And I would ask your manager first, and then they'll say, well, you'll have to ask HR. But if you ask HR, I'll tell them I'm willing to do it. You brought up something that I wanted to mention earlier, which is you should handle the situation professionally, no matter how you feel about it. So the note you mentioned earlier,

is entirely appropriate. It's a good move. A 24-year-old is going to have a long career. And those moments and how you handle difficult moments are things people remember. So sending notes and being as positive as possible about it will be beneficial to you going forward. Now, I know

Last year, there was briefly a trend of people going on TikTok and trashing their companies when they got laid off. Well, guess what? Those things follow you. And if you actually need to be employed, that's a very bad move. So I would not make public statements. In fact, look carefully at your agreement. A lot of these agreements have non-disparagement provisions where it say you can't say anything bad about the company. So you need to make sure, A, you're

contractually what you shouldn't do because you may risk your severance, but B, from a professional perspective and for your next career opportunity perspective, what your public statements should be.

to line you up. And the best ones are really complimentary, acknowledging it's difficult, complimentary about the experience, highlighting a good thing you did, and then saying that you're looking for something new. And you'll see people will reach out to you and they'll want to help you find that new thing because you're a positive, inspiring person and not angry and berating your company. Two more questions. And one of them is about negotiating things

your exit when you take a job. But before we get there, sometimes companies don't actually lay people off. They put a package on the table and they ask for volunteers. How do you make that decision? How do you know if you are at a point in your life or at a point in your financial life

where it makes sense to raise your hand and say, yeah, I'm going to get paid for three, four, six, 12 months and not do anything or look for my next thing and double dip. When do you go?

Well, that's a deeply personal decision. I mean, we just had a very public example of that buyout scenario with the Doge crew. My advice there was don't take it. There was no agreement. There was no terms. It was just kind of a trust us. But look, in a normal situation, you look at that and you say, do I have another opportunity? What's my future here? Where am I in this org? Is there anywhere else to go? How much confidence do I have in myself to get another job?

Some people are flirting with starting their own business or launching something on their own. So they may be inclined to take that and say, hey, I could take this and then start my own business. It's a great way to fund it. I would look carefully at the terms. The headline may be attractive, but look at the terms.

So in the situation where you may have another job offer that you're ready to take, make sure the severance isn't going to be reduced if you have another job, because some severance packages do have that term. If that's the case, then you're not getting the double benefit that you think you're getting. And some are very close to retirement. And so it may be a bridge to retirement and

If you're at that age, I would look carefully at how it impacts your potential retirement eligibility if you're in a company pension plan or similar retirement plan. So there's some further questions to ask there. Especially what are you going to do as far as a bridge to Medicare if you're not going to be able to continue your health insurance? Because as you said, COBRA is maddeningly expensive in many cases. All right.

So all of this shit happened. You went through a layoff. Legal term. Yes, legal term for the environment that we're in right now. All of this happened. You went through a layoff. You've got another offer. Good for you.

what should you negotiate going in? And how senior do you have to be to negotiate for the kind of things that you're asking for? So this is the bulk of what I do these days is help people negotiate their entries. But really, what we do is focus on the exits, because anytime you take a new job, it's a risk for both sides, right? It's the company that's

hiring you and doesn't know much about you and you who don't know much about them and you're relying on what they tell you in job interviews and maybe it's true and maybe it's not. You want to make sure that the risk is balanced and that you're protected if something goes wrong. So I would say negotiating is not something you're going to be doing much of at lower levels. So if you're in an entry level job, a lot of those roles are prescribed.

within a certain range. But as you get more senior, it's certainly something you should think about. And you should think about what happens when I get terminated? Do I get severance? And what's the right market severance for my type of position at my level? Do I get a bonus paid out on a prorated basis if I get terminated mid-year? If you have equity, what happens to equity? Do I get health insurance paid for? Those kind of things. If I have a non-compete,

Is it erased if they terminate me without cause? That's something I always push for. And then as you get to the very senior levels, are there reasons that I can terminate and get severance because the company is not living up to its obligations to me, like they're forcing me to move or they're not paying me the bonus that they said they would pay me or they...

reduce my pay or they reduce my title. The more senior you get, the more important it is to negotiate. At least have someone look at it. And I would say this is the moment of your greatest leverage. Once you're in the door, forget it. They're not going to renegotiate your offer letter. And once you're on the way out, you don't have much leverage. I mean, every negotiation relies on leverage to succeed. So you're on your way in. They want you. You want them.

They've invested a lot of time and money in recruiting you. So use it. Don't be afraid to ask for a couple of things that are important to you and that will secure your position going into the new job.

I want to leave this somewhat depressing conversation on a happy note, Peter. And you offered some encouragement for our listeners on the way in. You said, you know, it will be okay. You will get through this. I always take heart in the fact that even in periods where the unemployment rate is going up, it doesn't mean that nobody's getting hired.

It just means it's taking people a little bit longer to get hired. You will find that next job. But what's your best go get them speech? My story that I can share is that I've dealt with people in these situations. I've helped people in these situations and I've seen them when they're crying and upset when it happens. And then

I've seen them when they email me a year later and say, you know, is the best thing that ever happened to me. And here's all the great things I've done in the last year. I've never received a message that said my life still sucks and I haven't found a job like never. And you're right. I mean, we're going through just a crazy, unprecedented period in this country right now. But companies are still hiring. Big deals are still happening.

And once we find a place of more certainty, things will come back to normal. And hopefully that's very soon. But the important thing is like people want to support you. The universe wants to help people who are doing good things and who mean well. And if you're laid off, it's not about you. It's about something the company's going through. And this is how they chose to deal with it. So don't take it too personally. Don't spend too much time.

Sitting, feeling bad for yourself, take a day or two and then get going. You'll find something new and your positivity in that journey will be inspiring to others and they'll want to support you. Peter Rabar from the Rabar Group. Thank you so much. That was an incredibly detailed conversation. I can't believe we've been doing this show for seven years and we haven't had it before because it's really important. So thanks for all of the information. Great.

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