IN-DEPTH: The Art of Non-Conformity (w/ Chris Guillebeau)
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I'm Cal Newport, and this is In Depth, a semi-regular series in which I talk to interesting people about the quest to cultivate a deep life. I'm excited about today's guest. It is the author, Chris Grubow. He has a new book out called Time, Anxiety, The Illusion of Urgency and a Better Way to Live. So clearly this book topic is one that you know I'm going to be interested in, and we have a good conversation about it.

But I was also excited to have Chris on the show because he's a blast from the past for me. We intersect strongly back in that early stage of my career, the 2000s.

When I was blogging, I'd written my first student books and I had the Study Hacks blog and I knew Chris from back in that world. So we sort of go back and relive a little bit what that early stage of new media was like where blogs reign supreme. We talk about these fantastic conferences that Chris organized called the World Domination Summit, including this famous one within sort of

I think it was the 2011 or 2012 World Domination Summit. You can find my video of me talking about So Good They Can't Ignore You. It's online, but it's this like 800-person venue. And it's a great place to be.

And it brought together all of these different people at early stages in their career that would go on to do really interesting things. So, you know, I was there talking. Brene Brown was there as well. That was like one of a couple different – there's a period there I was doing multiple different stuff with Brene. Gretchen Rubin, I think, was there. Susan Cain from Quiet was there. It was just like this –

really interesting period of where people are coming together. That's where I met the minimalists for the first time. Like they were just coming up and it was all this energy at this

at this one place. So it was, we had a lot of interesting discussions, not just about his new book, Time Anxiety, which is great. You should check it out, but also about what was that world like, that world of online ideas like in that pre-social media age. It was, in some sense, it was utopian and there's other parts about it that was actually like much harder than is today. So we pulled that all apart there. And I don't know, it was just cool to see Chris again. It really reminds me of just being back at like my office at MIT, writing my study hacks notes

blog post, a simpler time, but an interesting time. So it's a cool conversation with multiple different angles I think you are going to like. The conversation is brought to us without interruption. We have a presenting sponsor today that is allowing us to hear this full conversation without interruption. That presenting sponsor is done daily, an online coaching platform that will help you break free from the noise of shallow tasks and focus on the deep, meaningful work that really matters.

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That productivity philosophy there should sound familiar. Though I'm not a partner of... It's not my company. I know the people at Dundaley because they also do my body tutor. I've known them forever and they have this fantastic online coaching program for health and fitness. So I was happy when they said, hey, we want to use some of your productivity ideas from your podcast.

We want those to be the ideas our coaches are helping to instill. And so I was happy to hear that they were doing that. I think it's a fantastic way to get some accountability on implementing the type of productivity ideas I talk about on my show. So it's a sponsor I'm happy to have, done daily.com to find out more. And thank you to done daily for allowing us to present the following interview with Chris Goubreau without interruption. So with no further ado, let's get to my chat with Chris.

All right. Well, Chris, it's great to see you again. It's funny to think when we first met each other, this type of technology did not exist. I'm excited, of course, about the new book, Time Anxiety. This hits on a lot of my sweet spots. My listeners know we're going to talk about time management, productivity, how it intersects with purpose, how it intersects with psychology, how it intersects with our quest to feel, you know, depth and meaning.

But I'm hoping to start by going back memory lane a little bit because I think there's an interesting story here about the evolution of the internet and technology and just kind of an interesting guy. I'm going to mention how I remember you coming onto my radar and then I'm going to flip it and see what the real story was, you know, from your perspective. So if we're going to play the Wayne's World back in time transition music, we're going to go back to that first decade of the 2000s, which...

Was when there is these glory days for us millennials where blogs were the medium for independent media that you would have these WordPress blogs and it would be weekly or daily and people would read them through RSS readers. It'd be on Google Reader or something like this reading them. And I had my blog Study Hacks that was based off of my student advice books.

And then you sort of showed up on the scene a couple years into it. And what I remember is you had this manifesto, the world domination manifesto. You had a very good looking website. And I remember I was thinking like, oh, you could look that professional. And you were like, interesting. I think you were in the middle of your travel to every country in the world. And it was just like a boom. Like you were a presence there.

Within a few months. What is your memory? From your perspective, what was going on when you entered into this world of Web 2 back in those days? What was going on back then? It was an interesting time. It was a really fun time. You know, I'm always skeptical of nostalgia and looking back. But I do look back fondly on that time. And I remember that a lot of things just seemed...

easy, for lack of a better word, in terms of, oh, it's not that hard to set up a website or a blog on WordPress. And I can't take credit for how it looks. I found a wonderful designer named Reese Speckerman. I reached out to her and I was like, hey, I've got this

project I want to write about. It's a little bit about going to every country in the world, but it's broader than that. I want to call it the art of nonconformity. So she helped me kind of get going with an initial design for that. And then there were people like you, like Gretchen Rubin, Leo Babauta, JD Roth, others who were all mutual friends now, had known each other for years. And I looked up to them, to you guys, and I was like, oh, it's interesting what

you know, everybody else has done. I wonder if it's too late, you know, for me to do something in this space. But I'll try, you know, and the going to every country in the world thing, like I had been doing it for a while as a personal quest. It wasn't like this is my, you know, marketing campaign. But I did think of it as an interesting anchor, you know, to like, okay, this is a, you know, I want to write about life, work and travel, which is super broad. You know, it's like the opposite of the conventional wisdom about like, choose this, you know, very specific niche.

And so since I want to write about life, work and travel under the lens of nonconformity, it's helpful to have like, oh, and I'm going to every country in the world as part of this. So that's kind of how it came to be. And I remember reaching out to lots of people and just saying, hey, I got this thing. And a lot of people were kind enough to link to it. And that was like a currency back then, right? I mean, it still is to some degree. But I think back then it was like, oh, if people are linking up your blog...

And that's very valuable. And you were kind to write a post about me and the manifesto. And things kind of transpired from there for both of us. And we ended up hosting an event that you came and spoke at. And you were obviously taking off and going in different directions as well. But that's kind of how it started for me.

That event, the events you used to run, we've talked about them on the show before. I guess I came a little bit later, like the 2010, the world domination summit that you ran. I've talked about it on the show nostalgically before with people because I don't think this exists anymore. But my memory, those, those, that first one I went to a, like the crowd there was really interesting. It was, I remember Brene Brown was there. Gretchen was there. Susan Cain was there.

Yeah. J.D. Roth was there. He was nervous. I remember that it says, because you got, you got big crowds. Those were, those were big crowds. Like there, there felt like something was happening. I remember I was hanging out with like Manish Sethi and Ben Kastnuka and we were, it was, it was a,

As something was happening and it was coming out of the world of the internet and I was an interesting energy that's not really there anymore, I guess. Like that idea of like we would all get together in the same place with like 800 people and you would do crazy things. Like when you had the $100 startup that you're like, we're going to give everyone $100, except for there's a thousand people there. And I remember like being backstage, you're like, oh my God, we just came back.

from the bank with $100,000 wrapped up. I mean, there was an interesting energy that time. What was going on? Here's the question I'm trying to understand. And maybe this is true of every generation and the current generation is feeling this now and the past generation felt it as well. But, you know, in that period, I think as like old millennials and young Gen Xers, there was really something in that post 9-11 world of like this online world was unlocking a lot of Tim Ferrissian stuff

let's design our lives. Like, what do we want to do? You know, I'm not super interested in the conformist path. It wasn't that it was back to land radicalness, but there was really a sense in the air. There was such an energy. You were doing this. Leo for sure was doing this when he left, when he left his, when he left his job.

And paid off his debt with Zen Habits, the e-book he wrote, right? I mean, it was like an interesting time where people were looking for meaning in life. And they weren't looking for big wins. They weren't looking for, you know, I want to be famous or I want to be rich. Right. What was your read of like what was happening in the world at our time that made these type of these blogs successful? You know, it's like on the search for purpose and meaning page.

To get to the skepticism about nostalgia, I want to be careful not to overstate that. But I do think there was something to do with the mediums and how people connected that were quite different in the sense that

it was possible to kind of know everyone or at least know of everyone. And I think that's a, that's a key difference. And yeah, there were like events like WDS where people ended up coming together. You know, I always saw like whatever role I had in it as being like an amplifier rather than a catalyst, like this was just happening. Right. And like we were able to gather that in some way and that was fun. Whereas now like,

Everything is so disparate and so segmented. And so, yes, people are chasing, you know, virality and fame and wealth through becoming a professional influencer. But it's not only that. It's more like, you know, there are so many... You know, how many 15-year-olds are there with a million-plus followers, you know, on networks like TikTok? And it's not just 15. There are people doing all kinds of things, and we've never heard of them. You know, like, it used to be that...

everybody could hear of everyone in a certain space. And now, you know, it's like there's thousands of or tens of thousands of spaces. There's a lot, there's so much more connection and such a lack of connection at the same time. But I think people are still searching for purpose and meaning, you know, I don't think that has changed. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting that back then, at least in our space, you knew when someone new arrived, like we knew when you arrived, like it just, the link got passed around. I remember at your event, um,

One of your events was when like the minimalist arrived and I was like, oh yeah, okay. I'm looking at you. They weren't even on the main stage. They were doing something on that. You remember you had like the side rooms and stuff like that. And I remember looking at their site and I was like, this is good. Like they're good. They've arrived. And they just were. And then like I became friends with them. We knew them. Like that was the world now. And yeah, that's funny to think about.

You know, it's not like, hey, everyone, guess what? There's someone new on TikTok. All right. Have you seen him yet? Nice to meet you. Like, okay, let's have a phone call. I mean, I wonder...

was our audience very, maybe it was just small, relatively speaking. I never really thought about it, but maybe all told we were in more of a niche than we thought. But I felt like there was just a lot of niches like that going on back then. It would be run around web too, and it was slower and more personal, I guess. I don't, I don't, I think the audience of creators was certainly much smaller, right? I don't know if the audience of consumers, you know, I mean, to just kind of make a little binary there. I,

I think maybe that has something to do with it, right? Because like how many personal development, broadly speaking, blogs were there that were read by like a decent number of people at the height of that time? I would say probably like 50 to 100 maybe. And like you could be like...

at least have a surface understanding or knowledge of most of them. Whereas if you pick any sort of category now, how many people are doing it? It's like thousands, right? And they're doing it in lots of different ways and in different forms and everything is short form video and it just comes and goes. And then there also weren't algorithms back then, at least it wasn't algorithmically driven content the way that the world works now. I think that was a big thing. So you and I,

stayed with a strategy that not everyone did. Like you and I, part of what unifies us is that we've kept writing books. And, you know, you've continued to write books and have written a fair number. I continue to write books. I think our book counts are relatively similar. What's your thinking behind that? Why have you stuck with books? Oh, I don't, you know, I don't know that it's a strategic decision. It's not like I'm like, let me look at all the mediums and kind of see what is best. It's, I mean, there probably is a certain, you know,

I mean, complacency would put like a negative tilt on it, but it's more like I'm comfortable with, I like this. This is a medium that I know and appreciate. And maybe the audience for it is shrinking in some ways. So I need to think about other mediums and such, but I still...

like that medium and feel comfortable with it. I still have ideas for books. I still think there are things that can be best explored in like a long form concept. But who knows, maybe I'm, you know, it's like, I think it's fair to always say, like, maybe I'm just kind of set in my ways with that. And like, if I were starting over now, would I, would I have the same beliefs? I don't know. What do you, what do you think about it? I mean, why have you stuck with books?

I mean, I think there's two reasons. One, I like the form. I mean, I just think it is a incomparable form that you can capture multiple years of thinking and you can crystallize it into a really legible product where someone can go inside the mind and really come out with like a new crystallization of knowledge. I don't know. I'm a sucker for that format. I think it's hard. It's hard for anything else to match it. It's also...

the financial question is an interesting one. I think books are pretty winner take all. Um,

you know, after deep work took off, it's also a good financial proposition. Right. But I can't say that's the way I was thinking when I was writing, you know, how to become a high school superstar. Sure. That was not the goal. So it's an interesting medium. I also feel like it gives us a foundation, a little bit of an anchor in a royal sea of new media where anyone can show up and try to go for attention. I mean, what happened with...

I lost track of everyone. I feel like in 2014, like what's the, it's somewhere around there where, and I chalked it up at the time. I was like, I don't know, like I moved, I started my professorship. I had a kid and like, maybe that's what it was, but I was still blogging. So it felt like something changed, like that world of blog base with real world meetups. I mean,

I was at WDS or whatever it would have been like 2011, 2012. That was like a big part when I was writing So Good They Can't Ignore You. But by the time I was writing Deep Work, that world, that world had felt like a collapse. Like I didn't know that world anymore. And what was I spending a lot of my time doing then was going on podcast. So like, what did it look like from your, your end? I think you had a bigger thing going on in that world. When did things change?

I think there was definitely like a slow, I was going to say disintegration. Maybe it's more of a splintering of people just kind of

going off into their own things. And there all of a sudden were more things like we were just talking. It wasn't just about blogs. It was like all of a sudden there were more events. There were a lot of events that came out of WDS that ended up serving maybe more specific communities. And of course, other events that had nothing to do with WDS. So I think a little bit of the splintering, then you have the new mediums, the podcasting and

Instagram and everything that that inspired or led to. Comments, you know, blog comments used to be like a big thing, right? And like most blogs don't have comments now or if they do, it's like not

Not really like the main feature. You know, now there's this rule of like, don't read the comments, right? Like reading the comments is not going to get you anywhere. Like there's no value in it. You know, at least that's the perception. So yeah, I don't know. I mean, like I'm doing a book tour right now. And even though I do very much, you know, believe in writing books, I want to write another book, you know, I'm happy with this one. I am doing like the book tour. I do notice like, there's not a lot of people coming out to a lot of these events and I

I miss that. Like, I wish it were different. But I also, I can't just force it. It has to, like, things tend to work best when it's like you're doing something that, you know, you have some skill at. Hopefully you have some message that's worth sharing. But then there's also, like, demand for it. You don't have to generate...

And I think right now, there's not a whole lot of demand, you know, to come out to meetups and smaller events, at least not, you know, certainly not what it once was. So that's something I have to think about. That's interesting. So then what is, what's like at the core of your business?

business right now? If I've pinned down like, oh, what do you do for a living? Which of the pieces of the different, because I know you speak and you write and you have a daily podcast and you still write the Ardon Conformity, which I appreciate. You still write it weekly. How do you think about it now? Yeah, I do break it up a little bit in terms of what makes money and what I'm

the most excited to do. And it's always nice when there's perfect convergence there. But I would say right now, the podcast is like the primary financial model. And the podcast is something I started seven years ago, and I've done it every day since then. So that's remarkable in some ways, but also I think it's good to evolve in other ways and do different things. So I'm not as passionate about... I don't put as much time into that, but it provides a disproportionate

financial benefit compared to some of the other things. So then the books, I have the Substack newsletter. And the Substack newsletter has a paid component, but I really don't push it very much. It's very... All the content is free. I don't have paywalls.

So it's more just like, if you'd like to support it, that would be great. And some people do. But my understanding in talking with people who do the paid newsletters is nothing converts more than a paywall. If you really want to go that route, that's how you do it. No amount of begging or incentivizing compares to that break in the article that forces people. And I'm writing more about mental health and neurodivergence. I just feel like I don't...

I don't know. There's something weird about that I don't like. Yeah, you have to lose a lot of audience to make money off a paywall. Yeah. So I could never figure out back in the day when blogs were the main thing. I could never figure out how to make a living off it. Like that was the one, I think, downside of that period in my mind was...

There was great community, but it was very hard to monetize in a reasonable way. So like web to RSS driven, at least for a non super business minded person, you know, like myself, how did you make that work back in like 2009 or like in those early days? So like I can never figure it out. Well, it's interesting you say that because I feel it's, it's hard. It's a lot harder now than it was then. So how are you, how are you making money back then?

Back then, I created products. The blog is there for free. And this came about completely organically when I noticed people were asking me the same kinds of questions over and over. Because I was writing about going to every country in the world. And I would occasionally have some posts about, oh, here's how I booked my round-the-world plane ticket, for example. Oh, I remember that product. Yeah, like travel. It was like advanced travel advice was one of them.

Exactly. I kind of geeked out on that. And I was like, well, this is not really the main purpose of my blog to go into like, here's all the frequent flyer hacks and tips and itineraries and things. But maybe people want to know about this. And so I created the first ever digital product I sold was called Discount Airfare Report, which is the most unsexy non-marketing title. And it sold for $10 or $15 or something. And it was the opposite of a sales process. And when I...

put it up on a post because I felt so like insecure about selling something. It was like, if you really, really want it, you know, like here's how you, you know, but you know, like a hundred people bought it or something. And I was like, well, that's interesting. You know, like maybe there's something to this. And so then I did start building out like other resources and,

And, you know, okay, here's how I've worked for myself. Like here's some entrepreneurship guides and some other travel guides and things. And so I did that for a number of years. And that worked really well. Like I never like scaled it or turned it into like a proper company. It was always a lifestyle business. But from a blogging perspective, it worked really well. And obviously people still have courses and things now, but I think that world has also changed quite a bit. That's right. So that's the model. Yeah, you have a very popular blog and then you would have...

information products that was just like, oh, you're interested in this bit.

Let's dive deeper. Yeah. See, that's what I didn't figure out until too late. I started doing some online courses, but that was 2014. That was actually very successful, though. So you're right. I was going to say, your topic, sorry to interrupt. I was going to say the topics you were writing, especially the earlier topics, that's very specific with a huge recurring market. And obviously people who are willing to pay at least a small amount of money or probably more, but you could sell those at scale. I'm surprised you didn't do that. What?

Well, I just, I don't know. It didn't occur to me. Yeah, I'm thinking about why did it not occur to me? I was writing books, but not, you know, for great amounts of money. I mean, you know, I was also just doing the

I'm trying to become a professor. I was in grad school. It took some of your time. It took a little bit of time. Not that I was making much money being a grad student, but I do remember though, I feel like the first person, the first two people to try this was when Ramit Sethi did the guide to kicking ass. Do you remember that? Yeah, I do remember that. I remember when he sold that like an ebook or something. $5. Yeah. Right. He's done pretty well with that. So obviously that's an example of like, here's how it started, how it started, how it's going. Yeah.

I mean, he went straight into that and went really deep and started selling courses for thousands of dollars. Yeah, yeah, that's right. But it started with that. It was $5. He was nervous about it. And then Leo, Zinda Dunn, ZTD. I remember that. Yeah, Zinda Dunn. And he was – I remember that was kind of the hero was when he –

sold that ebook and, uh, paid off his debt. And then they moved to San Francisco. And I remember that reading that and being like, wow, this is someone. And also like Tim Ferriss, it was like Tim Ferriss came along and had lifestyle design, um,

But so that was really big, but it was kind of unclear how to do it. Like the examples in the original version of the book were like, I don't know how I'm supposed to sell striped shirts. Like it was people weren't quite sure what to do. And then some of the bloggers we figured out, like, actually, we have like audiences and what a time. So, so, you know, informational products.

That was the way I find today. So the thing, here's how I see it. Tell me if this makes sense. I see it as, this is very like nostalgic tinge glasses. This is probably not going to match with everyone's experience. There was kind of a golden, there's something kind of nice and nostalgic about the era of blogs because there was a lot of community and it was non-algorithmic and you could, it was a nice period. And then like social media kind of sullied the party. This was sort of my take on it. I mean, I didn't use social media, but I just saw it fragmented that world and

And content began to chase the algorithm and it became a different beast, right? I mean, our stuff reads as so earnest, but it was authentic in a way because, yeah, we weren't chasing an algorithm. We were like building a relationship. But I feel of all the new technologies, the one that has sort of best captured what we had back then is podcasting because it's non-algorithmic.

It's relationship centric. Like you build over time a relationship with the audience and it's more, it's feels like it's more directly monetizable than blogs were. You could sell something else, but like podcasting, there's like a built in mechanism to convert an audience of just to have some ads and they actually pay at a level that means of like a show is doing well enough. You can make, you know, you can make a living off of it. So I feel like there's a bit of a Renaissance of,

of that same energy that there was back then. It's not as connected. That's the only problem. It's a little bit more like you're in front of your microphone all by yourself. But I do feel like I know a lot of podcasters, but that feels that has some of that same vibe where you're connected to a person, not like surfing content. Has that been your experience with podcasting? I think it's a little different. I think, I mean, I think everything you just said is true and correct. And I,

Podcasting has the discoverability problem, which has never really been solved. I'm not sure how it will, maybe with podcasting going more on YouTube.

Perhaps that will, but then that also has other changes with now it's more video based and it's less passive consumption. You can go out and go on your run and listen to a podcast, but it's also such a different learning style. Some people are natural auditory learners or enjoying that content and others would prefer to read. So that is a big shift.

I think there is certainly a community, right? It's like I know different people doing shows and we all go on each other's show and that can be fun and such. But I do think it's a little bit different. You know, I think it's like if you're starting from like if you were first asking me like, how did I get started? How did you get started? I'm not sure that the model would work the same way, right? Because you got started by writing a certain content and then other people would find it and link to it and such.

So how would that work in the world of podcasting? It doesn't quite work as well. Obviously, people are able to start from nothing and then build up. But I tend to think more like rather than being relationship focused, I think they are more algorithmic focused. And they probably should be just looking at it like...

from like the naked perspective of what actually works. You know, if you don't have a lot of relationships with people who are known, quote unquote, then it probably is smart to like pay attention to the algorithm and build your business that way. And that in some ways is sad, but I think that's how it is. I think you're right about the fact that it's a much...

It's a much narrower, there's a much narrower number of opportunities too, right? So it's, there probably was more opportunities with Web2 writing than with modern podcasting. So it's easy to say if you have a show going well, but that's sort of like saying in the early days of CNN, like, oh, this is great. Like suddenly with cable news, there's, you know,

30 new slots for TV shows where they used to just spend 10 TV shows. And if you were Wolf Blitzer or something, you're like, this is great. Like I didn't really have a space in the world of where it was just Walter Cronkite, but now there's, you know, 30 new shows and it's, it's great. And, and, and, but you're right. Like for most people are like, okay, yes, there, it opened up some more opportunities, but it's still super narrow. And because I think you're right about the discoverability, like what we were doing is,

in those early blogs wouldn't make for a good podcast yet. Right. Because there's a lot of authenticity. There was a lot of like talking about, man, there's so, that world was so personal. I like that world. What you were doing, what the, the, the minimalist were doing, not the minimalist specifically, but the minimalist movementals like Joshua and Courtney and everyone else doing that. I mean, there was a lot of,

people were talking about their lives, right? It was more confessional, which doesn't play in podcast land. I'm just thinking out loud now. But yeah, you can't just have a podcast where you're sort of, here's what I'm thinking about and here's what's going on. I'll use some wisdom. You're right, it has to have-

And you probably have to have a pre-established platform like a successful book or be a B-list celebrity or something like that. Oh, you're kind of talking me out of it here, Chris. Though I am enjoying it. I'm enjoying it too. I'm just thinking about it from the perspective, as you say, of people coming into this world, right? And not that every one of your listeners wants to do that, but...

Yeah, I do often think like how things have changed and how we have to cater our content or not. Or if we choose not to, then are we going to be excluded, right? If we choose not to play by the rules of the social media or the algorithm or whatever, and we haven't even talked about AI, of course, things are changing so much. And then I also don't want to be like, oh, well, back in my day, right? I'm always wary of that. Yeah.

I do think like we have to, you know, learn new things and adapt to new things. I mean, it was pretty, this seems to be the reality of new media forms is that there always seems to be a misguided notion in a reality, right? So the misguided notion is because this new form is available to everyone that we're going to have, like almost everyone will be able to have access

And then the reality would always be, okay, yes, we've democratized who gets access to the printing press, but still only the interesting brochures are going to get read. And like this was, this was the blog reality. Remember, this was like a big joke back then. It was like, everyone has a blog and no one cares. Right.

What your blog about your favorite pizza or whatever. And so it made it available for everyone to try blogging, but like only certain stuff work. And like we found a certain niche that worked and there is a voice that worked. But for every like one of us, there's probably lots of people who gave up and podcasting is even more restrictive. Yeah.

You know, the thing I thought, I meant to say this before on your last comment, was like about Wolf Blitzer. You know, so Wolf went from, there was a few channels and then now there's 30. Okay. So that's one thing. Or maybe there's even like 300 or something. But I think the difference is, you know, if we like extrapolate, it's like,

Back in the day of the 2008, 2010, whatever the timeframe is, okay, that was closer to 30 or maybe to 300. And now what is the number? You know, it's not quite infinity, but it's a huge, massive number. So I think it is harder to stand out regardless of platform or medium and message. Yeah, but I might flip it around to say like channels are the slots for having a...

Good audience, right? Like, like in other words, they're like blogs came along and now almost anyone could produce a blog, but like most of them are never read by anybody.

But there were, in the end, more things that had audiences than before blogs. You know, blogs like ours. We didn't have an audience before then. But it was still pretty small, the people who had six-figure audience numbers plus, right? It was bigger than it was in the age of Time Magazine and New York Times. Right.

But that's what I meant by like network TV going to cable. There was like more slots for people to have big audiences, but like most people still don't, you know, get a show. And, and,

I look at it sometimes from the consumer of information's perspective. That's great. The shift to cable was great. Great. There's more options now. And now there's all... In addition to watching Three's Company, now you have Mad Men and Sons of Adam. There's different interests. There's more of a variety of shows and it's great. But it didn't mean most people get shows. Same thing with podcasting. I think social media tricked people. My theory is...

At least in the original incarnation, this is the way I wrote about it in Deep Work. Like in the original incarnation, I feel like Facebook was a reaction to blogs being hard. Like so many people tried, you know, would start a blog and no one would read it because it was really hard to get people to read blogs because who cared, right? Unless you had the right voice in the right place and the right links going on. And Facebook came along and basically what I think they were offering for their first five years was we'll make it feel like you have an audience.

So you can, the web too is too brutal. Yeah, sure. You all have access, but it's a brutal experience. You start your blog, stop blogging, no one cares. And that's brutal. So here's what's going to happen on Facebook. You'll be writing stuff and most of it will be in name. But there's going to be this, we're going to connect you up to people who know you and there's going to be this social contract that they'll look and like your stuff and you'll do that for them. And you will get to like,

have that feeling of there's an audience that cares what I'm doing. And I really think that was the original appeal of something like Facebook was we'll give you a simulation of what it feels like

you know, to have an audience. And that was immensely popular. And people said, well, that's where I want to be. And the people creating like the really interesting content, like I'll create it over there because everyone's on there because they're also getting this tickle back. Then that went away. And I think now like most social media is just pure, just pure diversion, right? So they kind of have got rid of that sales pitch of like, hey, people care what you have to say and you're going to have followers. And like most people are like, no, just TikTok right into my brain. And I don't, you know, I don't care. Mm-hmm.

But that was always my theory is that it was like the simulacrum of –

And that was reacting to a real problem is that there was only so many slots for like the art of nonconformities or study hacks. But on Facebook, everyone could feel like, oh yeah, people are poking me or whatever it was. Until it changed. Until, until in shitification. Right. Yeah. And then they said, actually, you know what, now that everyone's on here. Yeah. And should have, let's incentivize it. Now everyone's on here. We can get rid of that. We don't need to attract people to this anymore. We seem to look at it and,

And what's better than making people make you feel like people are looking at your stuff is just like putting stuff that is incredibly engaging. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Interesting. All right. We figured we figured out all of media.

So podcasts are very helpful, as you were saying. Yeah, I think so. We've solved that problem. We've solved that problem. Yeah, Chris and I have solved that problem by podcast. What happened to you with social media? How did you have to adapt to that? Oh, I feel so conflicted about it, Cal. Very ambivalent in the sense. Maybe I wish I had taken a hard line like you.

Or I wish I had gotten really good at it. I don't know. I feel like I kind of split the difference and that's not a great path to success in most media. But I also... The ambivalence is also partly just...

based on my own enjoyment slash aversion to it. Because sometimes I really like it and sometimes it's fun. And I'm like, oh, okay, I'm going to get into this. I'm going to try to actually be more strategic about post, strategic, consistent about posting. But then I'll stop. I think for whatever reason, I was always really disciplined in some things, like going to every country in the world or I have a podcast streak or other things. But I have failed consistently at applying that discipline to...

social media. I don't quite know why. But yeah, so I go back and forth of like, I'm going to post for a while or I'm just going to stop posting everywhere for months and months. If you had started, how many years later would this have been? 10 years later than when you did. Your original Visiting Every Country hook would have been Supernatural YouTube, right?

Like, serious, right? Like, it probably, if someone was doing that right now, I think it would have crushed in that medium, probably. I mean, it's super visual. It has drama, right? I mean, some of those countries, like Iraq and, like, you had some of these, like, really, Afghanistan, these things where, like, you would land the airplane or go into, like, northern Iraq to the Kurdistan that would have to count. Right. That's how you would have done it.

I guess. And it would have been more expensive. You would have had that good camera. You have a camera guy and editing or whatever, but yeah, I'm so glad I'm not doing it today. I'm so glad I did it when I did. Um,

for several reasons. I think one, there are some places that are fundamentally more dangerous now than there were then. But also even if we like leave that discussion out just to focus on the sharing of it and the media of it, yeah, I would need to be video and you have to like create some sense of drama and intrigue. And a lot of the country visits that I did, it really was about the goal. It was about the quest. I was not a great travel writer. I discovered that pretty early on. You know, there are other people that write really engaging stories

you know, travel pieces about all the conversations they have and the food and, you know, culture and lifestyle. And that's great. I enjoy reading those things, but I was much better at writing about process. And so does that make for as good of a YouTube? I think it just makes, I would imagine like every comment would be, what is this? You know, like, it's not exciting. You on a spreadsheet trying to figure out your layovers. Yeah, that would be, yeah, you're right. You would have to have the very peppy, high energy content

That's what it would have to be. Yeah, that's what it would have to be today. All right, so let's talk time, time anxiety. My listeners are not surprised that I like this book. If you pick it up, you'll see I blurbed it with enthusiasm. This intersection of these ideas about our time and how we manage it and notions of productivity, those intersections with our psychology, with our anxieties, with our, you know,

sense of purpose and meaning and how they conflict and support each other. This has been a thread I've been pulling on for a while. You know, to me it fascinates me. I had Oliver Berkman on here earlier in the year. I think this book is a great compliment because it's looking at similar issues and coming at it from your own, your own angle. Let's start with, I like how you define, like when you think about time anxiety, I think you're putting your finger on something that's important. So how do you usually pitch that? Yeah.

I could say it as a series of statements. If we were to break it down, we could say, okay, time anxiety is like the fear of running out of time while simultaneously feeling uncertain over how to spend the time that we have. So it's like this existential question of time is running out, which is true because it ultimately is. But also the...

the constant pressure over how do we fill the time that we do have and desire is limitless, right? There's always more things that we want to do. And so what is the answer to that? And you've provided a lot of different answers and responses to that question in different ways through your work, which I admire.

And I think a key, maybe a similarity or something we very much agree on is like the answer is not to just get better at doing things. Like it can't, like that's important in life, you know, to be efficient and effective and to learn various skills and such. But, you know, that is a means to an end. That's a means to like, you know, doing more of what's important to you and living a purposeful life as opposed to being like the main thing. But I would say also maybe rather than just like that,

That definition, you know, I began the book with this series of statements. I forget exactly how they're phrased, but it's like, there's something I should be doing right now, but I don't know what it is. And that is something I did this really extensive survey with a lot of people and multiple people used almost those exact same words, like independently. I feel like I should be doing something, but I can't figure it out. And this is a recurring problem for me. This is like the biggest problem in my life, some people even said.

And I never knew there was a name for it or like some sort of basket or, you know, way to like think about it. And it's just a low grade sense of angst, you know, that not everybody, but as of all the books I've done, it's probably the most universal in terms of when I talk to people, I'm like, what are you working on? Before the book came out, it was like, oh, this concept about time anxiety. And so many people would say, I have that. Like, I've never heard that, but I have that. Yeah.

So I think it's just a sense of what do we do? And we're kind of assaulted with so many different options. Some of which are good and some of which are not. But how do we manage any of them? One of the things that's interesting to me about the book, and I want to ask you like a precise question about this, especially in part one of the book, there's quite a lot of advice, right?

that is, is aimed at like concrete things to do around, uh, your time and schedule to, to help with the time anxiety. Right. And some of it is about, uh, reducing things that's on the plate. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to go through, I'll take two things off of my schedule just to see what that's like, or the brick and the tank. Let me just protect parts of the schedule. And some of it is very just basic organizational, right? I'm going to, let me just take like one thing and do it right now. Um,

This is actually a break from the way other writers from like the last five years or so have come at sort of maybe a similar feeling, right? So there's this other approach to a similar feeling of I feel like there's always something I should be doing. This other approach is just to say that feeling is wrong. It's constructed. It's imposed upon you by X, Y, and Z. And there's truth to all the things that impose it. But the right response to it is like you can just ignore that or chill out or just do less things.

Whereas, you know, you're coming in saying like, we need to actually, I think that's much more of like a psychological astuteness. We need to work on that anxiety. So there's like little things you can start doing that's going to make that feel better. Like I want you to feel better more so than I want to

make some sort of like a value judgment about like where ideas come from or this or that. And so you're simultaneously in your book saying, hey, if you just go down a route of endless systems and efficiency, like the guy you profile early on anonymously that every six months would change what productivity system he was talking about. Like, well, how could the best system change every three months? If you go down that route, there'd be madness. But just to say, yeah, we should just like proudly do nothing. Yeah.

Like, well, that's also, you're going to have all that anxiety is still there. You haven't solved that problem. So how do you think about the difference? And I asked Oliver about the same thing. How do you think about the difference between being like overly systemed, but also needing like a baseline of systems and ideas can help reduce anxiety and kind of keep your life sane. Too much can make it worse. Yeah.

None at all can make it anxiety-ridden as well. So how do you think about... Do you use different terminology? How do you know enough organization is enough? How do you know when you're tipping into becoming obsessed? To me, this is the key question of productivity right now. That's very interesting. Well, I think I wrote the book differently first. I first wrote the book maybe more traditionally...

You know, I think it had like 12 chapters as opposed to 26. I didn't have like the practices or the activities that I added at the end. And, you know, that was like draft one or two. And you always hope that it's going to be, oh, that's great. I'm going to tidy it up a little bit. But, you know, I realized it actually wasn't quite there. And, you know,

I have to give a lot of credit to my editor, Leah Travers. She did a really wonderful job in helping me think about how to construct it in a way that's a little bit more neurodivergent friendly, perhaps, or if people don't prefer that term, just in a sense of like, what do I do right now? And I think Oliver Berkman's book is great philosophically. I think he deals with that and it kind of defines the problem really well. And he also has solutions. I don't want to say it's not solutions-based, but...

But I really wanted, I was like, okay, what's my space? Like, how am I carving up any sort of lane here for me? And I thought, well, before people can deal with any of perhaps what they see as the bigger problems of life or time or work, or how do we construct or find that balance, as you said,

The ideal reader, at least a common reader of this book, is going to be pretty stressed out. They're going to be distressed. And I've actually always thought about that. My readers are discontented in some way. They're actually... And I don't mean to say they're unhappy. They're just dissatisfied. They want something more from life, whether it's the things we were talking about previously or in this situation, they're struggling with time, broadly speaking. So when you're in that place, you need relief. You need relief. And you need...

You need to somehow begin to feel better and then you can make better decisions. And so I think trying to front load some of those things that you mentioned already about taking things off of your calendar and putting a brick in an inbox and maybe also just paying attention to what you...

paying attention to what you want to do more of and what you want to do less of. And I think if you just start doing that, if people spend their time and notice how they are spending their time without constructing any great system or using new tools, they naturally begin making decisions differently. And maybe then is the time like, okay, maybe there's something else that I can introduce here or I can add to my palette or my...

toolbox per se. But I think if we don't deal with the distress people have, then they don't really believe that there is any sort of relief in sight. I thought it was really innovative that you're integrating also third wave psychotherapy in particular, like cognitive behavioral therapy. That hit me as I read it, like, well, of course this is related. Like a lot of

issues we have around time and workload management there's really like a psychological component to that like of course we should be thinking about these type of tools should be just as important actually as to-do list format what what what led you to that like what's your thinking behind bringing in like let's point out ruminations let's name them let's make sure you know that's i was like yes this makes so much sense why is this not in every book

Yeah, right, right. What led me to probably some of my own experience of learning about neurodivergence and ADHD for me in particular, some of my own experience like going to therapy for the first time probably seven or eight years ago, in which you think you're pretty smart and you've had lots of life experience and you go to a few therapy sessions, you're like, "Oh, actually, there's a lot more I can learn about myself very quickly." Even if you don't want to go to therapy for the rest of your life, I think it's very, very helpful.

So some of that. And then maybe drawing upon, I didn't go nearly as far as you have in academia, but I had a master's degree and I had an undergrad in sociology and I really liked social psychology. And so I have a little background in that understanding and research methods. And so I put that together.

It was like, let's try to ground this in a certain degree of evidence-based research, which leads naturally, I think, to thinking about executive functions and cognitive distortions and many things from there. And this comes up, it came up, I would say, in the aftermath of my last book, where I was talking about workload, which because I was always coming from a frame, I'm an engineering type. So my frame was often like,

This isn't a really smart way of doing things. This is a bad use of your brain. This is making you unhappy, so reduce this. But it was like relatively engineering. And when I was talking about workload and workload management, I had what I thought was like a pretty crystal clear technical case for having too many things on your plate. You know, this was inefficient, right? It was going to stress you out. The administrative overhead was going to overwhelm you. There's like an optimal number of things to be working on. It's probably much less than you think.

And the feedback I kept getting, including, by the way, in like a conversation I had yesterday, a pre-interview for something I'm doing, it was a psychological response where people had the distorted thought in their head that I never say no to anything.

And this is why people like me. And if I start saying no to things, this is going to be a real problem. And like people are really paying attention. And this is, and I was like, wait, this is classic cognitive distortion. I was like, well, of course you, of course you're saying no to things. Like what are the chances that,

All of the work that people are throwing at you randomly just happens to exactly feel like 55 hours or whatever it is, right? Like it just happens to feel like a kind of overloaded but like tractable work week. Like what are the chances if we really just said yes to everything, we should have people working, you know, working themselves to death and people doing 120 hours a week being hospitalized. But that's a real coincidence that it's never 30 and it's never 60. Like, oh, that's interesting. Like, of course, you're saying no to things.

So what we're really talking about is like saying no to a few more things. No one's going to notice the difference between that. They don't have a chart, right? They don't have a graph or whatever. But that was classic. I was like, oh, it's a cognitive distortion. You've distorted the reality to you've forgotten all the times you are saying no. They'd be like, I always say yes. And if I start saying no, that's going to be a real problem. And then you're predicting the future in a catastrophic way that like when I first say no to people, my boss is sitting there with a must, you know, twirling the mustache with a cigar, like,

Like, I thought this was day would come. I've been waiting for it. And it gets out the big you're fired stamp or whatever. That's all psychology. It's distortions. Yeah. So I was like, what a way to talk about it. It's a distortion that leads to an operating principle, right? So it's not just like...

this internal thing because it leads you then to your behavior. So I have this distortion that I must say yes to everything because everyone is watching me. So there's actually two different things there, but together it leads to this operating principle of therefore I must do this, which is then going to contribute to

a certain amount of demise in your life. First of all, you're not going to be able to do everything well. And that's going to cause you stress because you are a person who wants to do things well and you like to do things with excellence.

But good luck doing that when you're saying yes to everything. And then you're going to inevitably prioritize other people's preferences and requests, demands over your own. It's going to lead to all sorts of negative outcomes traced to this operating principle, which is based on this cognitive distortion, as you correctly labeled it. And so...

you know, what's a different way to think about, like, what's a different rule you can create? Like I have a section in the book about time rules. I think you've written about this in different ways too. It's like, what are the time rules that you have for yourself? And maybe you haven't actually sat down and said, these are my time rules. Like, but you have internalized, you know, beliefs about time and work and behavior and response. And maybe it's time to rewrite those a little bit and see if your life is better.

That, you know, I applied a lot of this to myself when I was reading the book. And so maybe you can help me here. So here's what I discover. Like here is a time rule that had become a principle for me that I think is a problem. I've created this rule that says basically if you're doing something at a high level, then you can't stop doing that.

Right. If it's something that you're doing at a high level that like a lot of people would want to do that and would be like really happy to have made it there, then how could you stop doing that? So my issue is not saying no to things. I say no to things all the time, but it's the number of like major things I'm doing. I know it's too much probably. And it's probably preventing me from being like excellent in either. It's, you know, writing academia stuff.

podcasting, you know, there's journalism. So I was like, but in all four of those areas, my rule is like, well, how could you walk away from, you don't walk away from a full professorship. You don't walk away from a contract position at the New Yorker.

You don't walk away from, you know, podcasting is the medium of the future and you have something that's really working and it's lucrative. Like, how can you walk away from that? How can you walk away from book writing? You can't walk away from that either because like, you know, you've had a good successful run there. And so then I'm just stuck because because of that rule, I'm just stuck. But that's too many things. I should be doing two things, not four or one things, not four.

Right. And then the fifth thing is going to come along, whatever the next thing is or platform or medium, and then you're probably not going to have space for that or you're going to make space for it somehow, but then something has to go. So I don't know. I always think it's good...

to evaluate it based on more than one criteria or metric so that just because you're really good at something, I mean, not to be super reductive, but if we go to follow your passion, are you still passionate about it? I mean, maybe you are just as passionate and you're just as good at all four things, but I tend to think that...

There's a time in which you're more excited about something and then you stop being as excited about it. And then if you're not getting better, it's like somebody said something to me once about how... It sounds kind of like, you know, the so good, they can't ignore you thing. But it was, if you're not getting better at something, you're getting worse at it. And I thought about that a lot. I'm like, oh...

There's probably a lot of things that I'm just kind of coasting at. And maybe that's fine for a while. But if I'm really not improving at it, maybe that's actually a thing that I should give up. It doesn't matter that I have the contract position or whatever the status is or the money or the...

you know, the perceived value. Um, I mean, isn't ultimately isn't life more exciting when we're kind of pursuing something new or maybe it's not new, but it still feels new to us or different or challenging in some way, especially for those of us who have like the ability to choose. Uh, I mean, that I think is like the most precious gift, right? The ability to like forge a path that could be, you know, a number of different ways. Um,

So if we just kind of get stuck and keep doing the same thing, and I have this conversation with myself, like if I'm just doing the same thing, am I really like, am I, you know, maximum, not, it's not so much maximizing opportunity because that's not possible, but it's like something to do with potential, I think. Yeah. It's funny you mentioned follow your passion because I remember I gave that talk at one of your events and it was before that my book had come out about that being bad advice. And I still remember the turn that came to talk where I was like, and it's bad advice. Yeah.

And the gas, I, my memory there is like an audible gas. That was an audience that was like all on board with passion. It was great that you came to balance that. That's really good because we had, I always told people like the ideal WDS talk is inspiration with substance.

inspiration with substance. You know, so we do want people to feel inspired. You have to make an emotional connection, but hopefully there's some depth to it, you know, as well. Yeah. No, and I think I turned the audience around at the time, but you do it. You simplified that. But then, but then I did. Brene Brown had the audience dancing. So I was like, all right, that's a different, well, she started with that. It's hard to, it's hard to follow Brene. Hard to follow. That was the, that's how that works. Um, okay. I, I, I, I like that advice. Um,

I think a lot of what you write about dovetails with my idea of lifestyle-centric

This idea of like, well, what ultimately are you working? What matters? Like, what's the goal? Like, well, what determines how you experience a life is actually just like the day-to-day stuff that's happening in your life. Like that is what, like what type of, the rhythm of your work, where you live, who's around you, the footprint different types of work has in your life, other things are going on. Like these are the things that define your subjective experience of your life. And really there's nothing else

that you can work with more effectively than like, what is my daily life like? Okay. Now what I'm doing are like levers I can pull in, you know, trying to get there, which is like a very different way of thinking than I think, um,

the specific of the job will matters or it's going to, that's going to make all the difference. And if like the job matches a passion, then you'll be happy. Or if you can just have this one aspect of your right light, like I want to live on a houseboat. If I could just make that happen, everything will be better. And it's like, well, maybe, but what about all the other parts of your life? Do you like where the houseboat is? Like what type of people live around there? Like what type of work are you doing? Do you have to commute two hours into a city from your houseboat because the city is not near the water? Like, you know, and what does that make your day-to-day life? And

And it seems like when you're confronting time anxiety, it's a sense I get from the book. You need to know what it is that does matter. Like, well, this is what I'm going for and I'm kind of getting this. So it's okay that I'm not doing six more things right now. Because actually what I'm doing right now is pretty compatible with a vision of a life well lived. There's some notion of knowing that's ultimately what matters.

Yeah, more so than any metric or quantity or something like that. I think most people, if they ask themselves that question, what matters? And even like what matters to me right now? I feel like most people will have an intuitive answer. And maybe that's a clue, right? Like, especially when you're in that place of like, oh, I've got the four different things and maybe it should be two. Like what matters to me?

right now and then what do we do with that and something Gretchen says that I like I think about a lot I don't know if she originated this but she probably did because she's Gretchen she said you know what we do every day matters more than what we do once in a while and if we think about our day-to-day there are levers as you said there are things that we can do like I think the core principle of any sort of self-improvement you know for lack of a better word is that

Okay, a lot of stuff is outside of our control. We have to accept that, first of all. But then there is this limited sphere of autonomy and control and influence that we have. And it is important, I think, to think about that. And what do we do with that limited sphere? Whether we have free will or not, that's another conversation. But like...

what are some things we can do to be better? Like how can we be better tomorrow than we are today or at least better today than yesterday? And hopefully that's going to make life better for other people too, but starting with ourselves. How do you use tools to prevent chaos in your scheduling obligations without falling into the tools becoming the whole point? How do I use tools to avoid the chaos without the tools becoming...

The premise being if you had no time management tools of any type, life would be pretty stressful. But we also don't want to be the guy who has a new AI-powered, automatic language model, enhanced time management, productivity, expert agent tool that they build each month or something. Right, right. I guess like...

Maybe it's need-based or solution. What do you need to have? It's funny, I was just talking with this guy, Jeremy Kaplan. He writes this newsletter called Wonder Tools. And he writes all about tools. And I actually like it. I get his newsletter and every week, he's got five or six new tools that he's writing about. And it's fun. It's interesting and enjoyable. But I do notice sometimes I'm like, oh, this is a cool thing. Maybe I should try this or sign up for a trial with this. And then...

And then I look and I'm like, what do I really need this for? What actually is this solving for in my life? This is actually just additive. So I don't need this. So I think maybe that's like, okay, it's helpful to have a calendar because that tells me certain dates and times and things. It's helpful to have some sort of tool for tracking to-dos and project notes and outlines and such. There are various options for that. Yeah.

It's helpful to have a few other things. But I guess what is actually meeting a need versus creating just more to keep up with or more to manage? Maybe that's some of it. I love that idea. Yeah. What problem is this solving? Is there a simpler way to solve it? Yeah. Maybe those products are solving problems for somebody else. Maybe somebody else has that specific problem.

you know, specific need. But for me, not necessarily. I think this became a thing in the productivity software space, especially more aimed at businesses than individuals. But they really sold this idea that this tail wagging a dog, this complicated tool is

just trust us. If you're using this tool somehow, you'll just will be more productive. So you're not working backwards from here's something I do every day. I'm having a hard time with blank and I need a system to help me do blank. It's like, I don't even know how this tool works, but the videos are slick and it's complicated. And I just bet if we had that tool, things would be better. And like there'd be dragons, right? And when people go the other way and say, what are my actual needs? How do I solve it? The problem is for the productivity software industry is often the answer is,

a free digital calendar, like a document, like a text file, you know, and like a pretty good, a pretty smart way to organize some folders on your Mac. Like that's 90% of the way there. And there's no real magic in it. It's like, yeah, I can write stuff down in here. I have a calendar and I have folders for different projects I'm working on and I can put like Word documents in them. That's often all you need. Yeah. Maybe another criteria is like,

how much of a learning process is this? Like, is it actually a project of its own to learn how to use this thing? And so if you're in certain technical fields, right, if you've never, you know, if you learned you need to use like film editing tools or something, okay, maybe that's, that is a project that's worth investing in because you're upgrading your skills. Okay. But for product

productivity tools across the time management industrial complex, I don't think that they should be a project to learn. It should be pretty intuitive and simple and you can jump right in and know if it's going to help you or not. Yeah, I think complexity gives you the illusion that the more complicated it is, the more you'll believe there could be a big result.

And because it just makes it more believable. Like, oh, this is going to take a long time to learn. So I'm more willing to believe it's going to have a huge impact once I do it, which of course is not the reality. That's another person from our era, Merlin Mann. That was, I mean, he wasn't really in our circles, but he was definitely of that era. I interviewed him more recently for a thing, a New Yorker thing. But he was also very much of that era. It was like productivity. It was very personal. It was very Gen X-y, like sort of self-deprecating and had a bit of a, you know,

You know, there's a certain like video store geek vibe to it or whatever. Also from that era. That's a great way to put it. Yeah. And he gave up on all that. He was like, this is interesting. I wrote a whole story called The Rise and Fall of Getting Things Done. And it like kind of talked about

I have not read that. It's in the New Yorker. I need to go check it out. I read the New Yorker every week. I must have missed that one. Merlin's stories is definitely an interesting one. Okay, well, I know I've taken you over time, but this has been, this is fascinating. So we've solved two things here. First of all, we've understood like the past and future of new media.

So, you know, you're welcome, audience. That's right. We ended up with like, it's harder than you think. There's less slots than you think. Social media tricked you. There's no spots left in podcasting and blogs are dead. This is pretty grim. But then I think we got some good insight into, yeah, when it comes to thinking about time, time management, it's a role in our lives. This is...

There's a psychological aspect to this as well. There's like an anxiety that we need to resolve, that we need relief requires concrete steps as much as it does is like mindset change, which is what I really like about that book. I'm still processing the ideas. I still have a lot of need

for a lot of the ideas. Um, but I'm glad this one's out there. Definitely one of the more practical, I think, entries into this like new space. We need a new name for this space, but. That's true. I feel like you should coin the name. I mean. Well, I coined slow productivity, but that's for like. That's right, you did. It's specific. That's a book itself, you know, so. The book itself. Yeah. Allier Dahl had feel good productivity. So like there's different, different names are, are, are, uh, are being coined, but I think, I think we're onto something. I think you're definitely onto something. Um,

It was great catching up. It was great having that blast from the past. I miss those times where things were simpler back then, but there's cool stuff going on now. Where can people, beyond just looking for the book, Time Anxiety, is the art of nonconformity still the best website to go to to find everything, Chris?

I'm doing more of my writing at Europe Mental Health. And it's your name.com now, isn't it? Yeah, but nobody can spell that, chrisgillibeau.com. So you go to europementalhealth.com, that's my sub stack. But yeah, the original site is there at Chris Gillibeau. Or for those who do use social media, it's 193countries on Instagram and chrisgillibeau everywhere else. Yeah, and the podcast name is the Side Hustle Morning. Side Hustle School. School. Side Hustle School. And that's been daily.

Is that right? You're a madman. Every day. I miss today. You're a madman. I love it. All right. Thank you. Well, Chris, always a pleasure. Thanks for joining the show. Thanks, Kyle. All right. So there was my conversation with Chris Goubreau. That was a great blast from the past, but we also covered some really, I think, interesting topics about time and anxiety. I like how Chris, like one of the things he's carving out that came out of that interview is thinking about different types of neurodiversity and

And how that overlaps with things like time management or productivity. I think that's something he's really good on. So there's like a lot of interesting angles in his work on time there. But also it's just cool to remember that time of blogging. I got to go back. It makes me just want to go back and write my three blog posts a week.

back in the simple days. Mondays was Monday masterclass. That's what I called my Monday blog post. And it'd be some sort of study advice and there'd be a case study in there and usually something that was a link. I mean, I just had a lot of free time back then. I was also writing books and papers and dissertations and oh, those were the days. So Chris, thanks for giving me that blast back in the past. Hope everyone enjoyed this conversation. We'll be back with a normal episode of the podcast as always on Monday. And thank you for listening.

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