173. Late ADHD Diagnosis? How to Level Up Your Career Without Burning Out, with Skye Waterson
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Hello and welcome to Truth, Lies and Work, the award-winning psychology podcast brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. My name is Leanne, I'm a chartered psychologist. My name is Al, I'm a business owner. And we are here to help you simplify the science of work and create amazing workplace coaches. Welcome, welcome. Brand new studio, as we mentioned on Tuesday. More about Tuesday in a second. Let us know what you think about it. We're still playing around with the lights in the background and stuff, but yeah, we're

I think we're pretty pleased with it, aren't we, Leigh? Very pleased with it. So yeah, we first talked about that on Tuesday. Regular listeners will know that on Tuesdays, it's our This Week in Work episode where we bring you a news roundup. What's going down? Who's losing their shiz? And we bring you a hot take from an industry expert, usually quite spicy, sometimes controversial, maybe an unpopular opinion. And then we also bring you our world-famous weekly workplace surgery where I answer all your questions work-related. Thank you.

And then on Thursdays, which is today, we bring you an interview with an expert guest. And this week is a really good one. Yes. So Skye Watterson is our guest and she is the founder of Unconventional Organization, where she helps late diagnosed ADHD professionals thrive at work without burning out. What I really like about Skye's approach is that it's completely research backed. Leanne will approve that. You're going to get Leanne's approval. Bing!

See if I can do a sound effect for that. She actually turned her own surprise ADHD diagnosis during her PhD into a mission to develop evidence-based strategies that work. She's not just keeping the strategy to herself, though. She's been sharing them everywhere from the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service. That's Kiwi Spies, is it? To her podcast, the ADHD Skills Lab, which hit 100,000 downloads pretty quickly. As a fellow podcaster, I know that's pretty impressive. Thank you.

Fun fact, Alan and I got accused of being MI6 spies recently. We're not, but we would say that, wouldn't we? Anyway, what I also really liked about Skye's work is she's addressing a really important gap right now. We're seeing late diagnoses, a number of those increasing significantly, and the support for adult ADHD diagnosis treatment isn't great anywhere in the world, but especially not in the UK and

and well nowhere really um so yes it is a really important work that that sky is doing and the fact that she has developed these personalized strategies that she can share as part of her experience how they can be applied uh to the experience of others whilst also helping them find their own individual coping strategies is really quite cool

And she's clearly doing something right because her articles have reached over a quarter of a million people. So if you're interested in how to create a more focused, balanced workday, whether you have ADHD or not, you're going to want to stick around for this one. So let's join Leanne and Sky and find out everything you need to know about adult ADHD.

Skye, welcome to Truth, Lies and Work. Very much looking forward to this conversation. For our listeners who perhaps haven't heard of you, would you mind telling us who you are, what you do and what you're famous for? So my name is Skye. It's wonderful to be here. I basically help

adults, professionals with ADHD. I help you get unstuck, get focused, get consistent, but I do it in a fun way. And I guess I'm most known for my focus on research. I was an academic before I became a coach. I got my diagnosis at the beginning of my PhD. And so it really prompted me and I had access.

to start looking at journal articles. And that's what the podcast is now. And I've written a lot of articles about ADHD. I want to start at the beginning and make no assumptions. I think everybody listening would have heard of ADHD, but can you maybe define it for us and particularly what it might look like in adults who might get a later diagnosis?

Yeah. And I think it's fair not to fully understand it because, I mean, I studied in psychology and they didn't really talk about adults. I was very confused when I found out I had it. And so, you know, it really is a persistent and pervasive, and I think that's really important, struggles that you can have around executive functioning and impulsivity issues.

Um, mainly so you can have now the, you can have ADHD, uh, mainly inattentive, which means you're more in the distracted side, um, or ADHD mainly hyperactive, which means you're more in the like driven by a motor struggles to sit still side, or you could have combined tiredness.

type which is what I have so what might that look like in in the workplace either to help people maybe identify these behaviors in themselves or or leaders recognize them in others

Yeah. Well, I think in the workplace, this is where the persistent and pervasive comes in. It needs to be something that you've seen pretty much from the beginning, the moment they walked in the door to now. It's not something that has happening just over the holidays or at another time, you know, where there might be other reasons for it. It's something you're seeing a lot. Um, and it's essentially particularly consistent struggles. I would say if you're looking at a spiky profile, that might be, um,

a really good indicator that somebody is struggling with ADHD. So if they're like, man, they're doing amazing in this area, but it feels like they don't care because they never send their emails responses with, you know, enough time, that kind of thing that really like, well, they're doing amazing here, but not here. Usually that's indicative, indicative.

that there might be something going on. And what are the misconceptions when it comes to ADHD? I love this question. The biggest misconception for me is that people aren't trying very hard.

So people get a lot of like, oh, you're not trying. The truth is people with ADHD might be trying more than everybody else in your office. They just might not know the right way to try. And that's, you know, when with what I do often it's people think it's going to be more work. They're like, fine, give me all the boring stuff. And it's actually about making it fun, making it flow for their brain. And if they're not doing that, it's like pushing against a wall every day. And if leaders are listening and, uh,

perhaps feel that, you know, I would imagine what you described then might trigger, you know, somebody in the organization that they're thinking about. How do we maybe re-educate ourselves around ADHD to better understand, better support people? Yeah, this is another good question. So one of the things that you need to know if you're in a managerial position and you see somebody who has ADHD is that you might, they might not know and you can't ask them.

So that's kind of the first thing. You know, what I don't recommend is going up to someone and being like, hey, have you thought about ADHD? Like, I don't do that. And this is my job. So yeah, the next thing I would say is like, what is good to do is thinking about adding some kind of flexibility and some support specifically for executive functioning. And we can go into what that is and how that works in a minute. But

This extra flexibility, it's going to help your whole team.

I've worked in the New Zealand government and New Zealand health district with their managers, helping them understand how to support people with ADHD in the workplace. And what I found is that when I provide strategies for people who have ADHD, a lot of people go, well, but that seems really useful. Like I want that too, because, you know, sometimes we all have those bad executive functioning days. And if you give it to everybody, then you're not

focusing on one group and then everybody's happy. So that would be my number one thing. That makes sense. So there's actually techniques we can use to just support everybody in that aspect. Yeah, that's the amazing thing about this. It's about supporting everybody. It's, you know, other people who don't have struggles with working memory or time blindness or impulsivity might not need it every day, but you're still going to have those Friday afternoons. You're still going to need it sometimes. And what might some of those techniques or support

strategies look like? Yeah, it really depends on the workplace. This is where I tend to get very tactical. You know, if you're working in government, for example, there's less that we can do because they're much more strict. But, you know, if you're working in a reasonable office, maybe you're like, you've got this difference of, you know,

where you can work. Maybe you can work in a coffee shop, but you can also work in the office and maybe there's a few quiet spaces. I think the number one thing I would say is let people do what they need to increase and reduce their stimulation. So basically, sometimes we can be overstimulated. There's too much noise, too much going on. It's too distracting. Maybe you need to go and work in a quiet space. But equally, sometimes

You know, we've all been in those offices where there's no light and no body and it feels like you're enclosed. And so, you know, maybe you need to be able to go and work in a space that's got a little bit more going on, you know, increase your stimulation a little bit more.

So that kind of flexibility can be really good. Flexibility around what time you can come to work can be really good as well, like even shifting it by a couple of hours. So maybe you can start, it doesn't even have to be shifting it to later. You could say you're allowed to come in from, you know, 7am, things like that. A lot of these things are more available now post COVID, which has been really good.

Those things can help. And then also just a super practical one that I always say because people don't do it is if you have a meeting room, put a clock in your meeting room and make sure the person who's like –

running the meeting can see the clock because if you're working with somebody who has ADHD and they're giving a quick five-minute presentation and there's no clock in view, the chances that it's going to be a quick five-minute presentation are very slim because we do not sense time in the same way as neurotypicals. I think that's such an interesting aspect of the perception of time.

And I think any little nuggets like that can really just help us to reflect and educate ourselves. Because there has been a huge rise in ADHD diagnoses, and particularly in adults. Do you have any suggestion or any reason as to why that might be? So this is a tricky question, but I got asked this question a while ago. And I think...

Honestly, I think COVID really pushed it. COVID was where you really started to see people get a diagnosis. And so I think a lot of what we're seeing now in the continual diagnosis of ADHD has sort of springs from that point. And a lot of it was, and still is, the sense of, okay,

I was taking on this responsibility and then I had some kids or I started a new job or I got a promotion or I moved to a bigger city and then I had to deal with the pandemic. It's just too many things. The executive functioning that you're doing, you might, okay, well, I guess we'll work some Sundays and okay, I guess we'll do extra prep in the evenings and eventually you're like, nope, I can't do it. That's it. There's got to be something. I'm going to somebody. And that was my story as well. I

I finished my master's and I got a scholarship to do a PhD, which was amazing. But I was so burned out at that point that I don't even really remember getting the scholarship. I only really sort of

I realized later, I went and worked in a bakery for a year and made art and all this kind of stuff. I was like, oh, I'm done with that whole thing. It was only later when I was like, wait, I think that was just me being super, super burned out. Then when I went back to university to do the PhD,

Then I was like, okay, I'm going to go to the inclusive learning center. I'm just going to be like, what is it? Just help me figure it out. And so I think a lot of people with ADHD, they don't necessarily know they have ADHD. They just know something is wrong. And they've gotten to a point in their life where they've piled on too many things. And now they're going for help. And when you go for help these days,

ADHD becomes part of the conversation. Whereas before it wasn't part of the conversation. I've worked with tons of clients, especially female clients who are like, well, we thought it was anxiety and depression and it never quite seemed to fit. And then when ADHD came along, that was a fit. And now I'm feeling better because again, with ADHD, once you know about it and you get the strategies, then you're not good. You're still going to struggle forever, but it

It can really help. You know, the research indicates it's one of the more treatable source struggles. And of course, everybody's journey to a diagnosis is different. Would you mind telling us a bit more about yours and how you felt about it when you first heard that news?

Yeah. And I'm glad you said that because I will say everyone's diagnosis journey is different. And I work with people who are in the process of getting diagnosed or suspected diagnosis or have one. Executive functioning strategies can help everybody at every stage. My own journey was, I went to my

my university's inclusive learning center, which I'm forever grateful to, they put me through a bunch of tests. I thought it was dyslexia. I kind of just went in and said, look, I know that sometimes I'm doing really great and sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I'm doing amazing and sometimes I'm like getting handed papers and everyone's like, what? Did you miss the last page? Like what happened? And so I was, you know,

struggling with that. And so when I went to the space, I just said, maybe it's dyslexia, maybe it's this, I don't know. And they put me through a battery of tests, which is a bit unusual. I think that was unique to me because they were just testing for everything. So I got left in rooms and I had to look at things and

you know, click buttons and all this kind of stuff for, you know, about four hours, all told. And eventually they said, you know, maybe dyslexia, but definitely ADHD. And that was a huge shock, like very, very big shock because I had

I'd actually taught developmental psychology, which shows you how little information was about ADHD at the time. And we had learned about ADHD and autism, but it was specifically in kids. And so the idea of it being adults was something I did not know about. I mean, I knew one or two people, but not something that I could have

And so that really was a huge shock. And then obviously I had to get it confirmed because it was the university that had initially suspected it. And then I did get it confirmed. And then that was a huge, it was a really big shock. And so I found myself on the internet, like I think everybody does going, you know, okay, what is ADHD? Like, how does this make sense? I have ADHD. So of course I hyper-focused, I did a huge deep dive.

But then, you know, the thing that I'm very lucky to have and the thing that I really want to share with people and I try and share as much as possible is I was able to go to the primary sources. I read research articles. It's what I've done for a living for many years. And so I was able to read neuroscience research and biology and, you know,

psychology as well and start to really form a picture of what was going on. What's the most surprising thing that you learned diving into the research? I think one of the most surprising things I learned was that the way that ADHD is defined feels so specific when we're talking about it from a diagnostic point of view. There's a lot of discussion around, well, your ADHD needs to be diagnosed by

by a psychiatrist and it needs to be diagnosed by this psychiatrist. And if you're in the UK, you have to wait for nine years to see that psychiatrist, all of those kinds of things. But when they actually do the research into ADHD, sometimes they work with people who've got an official diagnosis. I've seen on papers where they just ask a teacher who seems to have ADHD and they go off that. And so when they talk about ADHD symptomology, you know, the, the,

the title says ADHD symptoms, they just mean we thought they had ADHD and we put them into different situations and then that's what we got. So sometimes, you know, you've got to be really careful that the people who are saying, oh, this and that ADHD,

They understand that. And the truth is they don't because a lot of the stuff is locked behind, you know, paywalls and things like that. So people don't always look at that methodology stuff. I have heard skepticism in the media, anecdotally, people around me about people who are receiving ADHD diagnoses or just a general increase.

Could there be a danger that they are getting incorrect diagnoses because of a lack of understanding or lack of information? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think one of the things that we know, and I think, you know, there's a huge...

controversy about ADHD diagnoses in the UK. You probably saw it. We actually had the woman who interviewed the doctor from the NHS on our podcast, which was really awesome talking through that. The thing that they talked about was the idea that if you are going to spend a

a lot of money, because sometimes it can be like, if you go private and a lot of people have to, it's like a thousand dollars. If you're spending a thousand dollars trying to figure out if you have ADHD, you probably have something. You're probably struggling. This is not necessarily just a vanity metric. And so what that tells us is, okay, you're struggling with something.

what do you need? And one of the, one of the things I love about what I do is I support executive functioning struggles very specifically. So struggles with working memory, struggles with, you know, time blindness. These are struggles that people have, whether they have ADHD, whether they have, you know, mental health struggles, whether they have, sometimes people come to me because they have head trauma, you know, so it's, it's a bit of a broader, uh,

broader space. And so there is a bit of inclusivity there. Like I said, right at the beginning, sometimes we all need these strategies. And so whether you get ADHD diagnoses or whether you just use an ADHD sense of, okay, I feel like in this community,

how my brain works feels more accepted and I feel like I'm understood. Maybe I'm not going to go get a diagnosis and I'm going to do all of these things, but maybe I'm just going to hang out with that community. We're cool. You know, you can hang out with us. It's okay. So I think that's what I would say is like,

I think what we're seeing is that people are struggling and that's the thing to pay attention to because the worst thing you can do is say to somebody who says, oh, I think I have ADHD. Oh, well, you probably don't. So you're probably completely fine and normal exactly like me and you should just do what I'm doing because clearly that's not working. Otherwise they wouldn't be trying to get this diagnosis. Okay. After this very short break, we'll be back with more gems from Sky and why ADHD is actually a superpower. Don't go anywhere.

Welcome back. Let's rejoin the interview where Skye gives us an insight into how ADHD can help you solve problems in a very different way. I wanted to ask you if I can, you know, you said that it was a big shock when you got your diagnosis and then you said, you know, we're cool, come hang out with us. Clearly you've gone through your very personal journey of accepting that and incorporating that into not only what you do but who you are. If anyone's listening who's maybe had a diagnosis and doesn't quite connect with their

community with the diagnosis itself, whether it is ADHD or another neurodiverse condition. Is there any advice you can give them to start exploring a little bit more about that? It can be difficult. I think especially sometimes I'll have people who come from, you know, maybe they worked in corporate for a really long time and then they got a diagnosis and they didn't tell anyone at all for ages. Sometimes that happens.

In terms of that, I would say, you know, choose your favorite medium of learning new information and just start looking at ADHD on that. And what I mean by that is sometimes people will like to listen to podcasts. You know, I have a podcast, ADHD Skills Lab, or maybe you just want a strategy, like how to organize. You can always DM me prioritization on Instagram, unconventionalorganization.com.

But, you know, if you need something like that, figuring out, okay, how do I like to take in information? Is it YouTube? Is it a podcast? Is it Instagram? And then just starting to search that topic in that space. Because nowadays there's usually somebody who's going to be teaching something, um,

in that way so for me it was YouTube I was watched everything on YouTube how about it and that was my entryway because it was a slow start initially I didn't want to read the books I didn't want to know everything immediately I just wanted one person on YouTube to tell me it was going to be okay and I think you need that as well don't you especially somebody who I think is has that lived experience as well there's something about hearing that that story that really helps I

I really liked what you were saying about, you know, that you can actually just do different things within the workplace to create an environment where everyone feels supported. And they don't necessarily have to disclose if they know. Are there any other nuggets of advice you could give to business owners about other things that they might be able to do to create this environment? Yeah.

Yeah, I think one thing that we haven't touched on yet is the strengths of neurodiversity or ADHD. So people who have ADHD, they tend to be really great problem solvers. They tend to think originally. So there's some research that shows that even if they're given like something to work on, people who are not ADHD might not.

you know, iterate around that thing. People who have ADHD are going to go wildly to the left and make something completely different. And so those kinds of strengths, problem solving, sometimes resilience as well, it will depend on the person. Those things, you know, you want to

We want to support those things because at the end of the day, you've hired this person because you thought that they would be a good fit for your organization. So very much understanding, okay, if I'm looking at somebody and I'm seeing that they're having these struggles, keep in mind, they have a spiky profile. It's not all bad news. They probably have some strengths as well. Can we help support them with their struggles? Can we highlight their strengths? That can often be really important. I mean, I've worked with people who

you know, run giant organizations or, you know, hit up huge teams and they really struggle with organization, but they have a few systems in place. They have a few strategies in place for that. And then things that they do is they managed to pull it out of the hat every quarter and really make the business sing in terms of their goals and what they're trying to get done. So keep in mind that people are going to have both.

How did you get then from the point of, you said you were doing your PhD and now that you've founded the unconventional organization, you've got your podcast. What was the path that you took from the PhD to where you are now? Basically what happened was, so I...

before, you know, I've sort of been a lifelong academic, got a master's and an honors and a whole bunch of other things. I may or may not have been trying to figure out what I was doing with my life. And, you know, from that experience, I was an academic educator for a really long time. So I taught in university, I taught stats and psychology and, you know, development and that kind of thing.

And so when I started my PhD, I said, no more teaching. I'm just going to focus on the PhD. I want to get this done. And then I got a diagnosis of ADHD and I thought, oh, maybe a little bit more teaching because I really love it. And so what happened was I first of all went to my university's inclusive learning center and I said, hey, can I start a group for postgraduates who are like me, who are neurodiverse? So I did that. That was really cool.

And then from there, I actually ended up, somebody said, oh, you should work in schools. Like there's heaps of struggles with this right now. And so I started, I messaged some schools, connected with them. I ended up helping them with their students, like giving the teachers some advice about, you know, how things work. As I was doing that, obviously I was learning and getting the research together and like, you know, starting to teach the stuff.

And then COVID happened and we all had to go home. And so at that point I was like, okay, well, I can't teach in schools anymore and I can't teach in the university, but I love to teach. So where am I going to teach? And I looked up online and it came up, oh, ADHD coaching is a thing.

So I thought, okay, well, that sounds really cool. You know, I put together a system based on all the stuff that I've been doing and teaching already. And I started at the same time, you know, committing to writing weekly articles on my website. So I have a ton of articles on there, you know, and I just started referencing those articles because I can't help myself putting them on Facebook and people really love them.

And so I started doing those two things in combination and it really developed from there. It was a time where people were looking for a lot of information about this exact topic and it grew and

Then I took on more responsibility and I, you know, got a business coach and I did all of those things. And so, you know, it developed and developed into what it is, what it's been today. And when you look back over that, you know, that four years now, were there any key moments do you think that stand out either in terms of understanding yourself and your diagnosis or understanding what it is to be an entrepreneur with ADHD? I mean, I think I learned...

I think what everybody learns when they put themselves on the internet, you know, I learned what my insecurities were. I learned how, you know, whether I, I think sometimes somebody, somebody said to me once your, your, your face is very flat. And I was like, what? You know, cause internally it was very emotional. And then, you know, externally, I think I was trying to like

be very like give everyone the information you know very much just trying to give them the research and the information that's what the academic space I was from in the academic I was like you don't know this but I'm like I'm a big extrovert in the academic space but in the in the internet space it's like hey you know maybe you want to try doing a bit more um so you know just things like that I think mostly I learned how to show up and and how to you know help people with what they wanted you

I can talk all day about neuroscience and ADHD and I learned that people like that and they want some of it, but they don't want all of it. So, you know, trying to temper that with just helping people understand exactly what they are and exactly what they need. So I think that was really the journey. I ended up developing everything I did.

taught in one-on-one coaching into a program called Focused Balanced Days. And so that's the program that I teach now and it incorporates everything. It helps people step into focus. Like I said, if you want that kind of stuff, you can just message me on Instagram. It helps people with prioritization filter, how to prioritize, how to reduce overwhelm.

those kinds of things. And I'm intrigued by the neuroscience because it is fairly new research we see from neurosciences with the advance in technology. What can you share with us about ADHD and the ADHD brain?

Oh, okay. We want to do this. Okay. So the neuroscience is interesting. It's still very, very new. But the cool thing, even right from the beginning that we saw was that there are very, very different neurological spaces. Now, if you're doing neuroscience, generally speaking, you are looking at the average brain. Everybody's brain is different. A lot of people don't know that where your hippocampus is or your frontal lobe might

adjust. That's why if they do brain surgery on you, you've got to actually go in there and, you know, press on bits. But what this means is that, you know, we, we know that there are differences, like we're seeing those differences. And I think when I was starting and I was talking about ADHD, that gave me a lot of confidence. You know, I say, okay, this bit lights up and this bit doesn't when you have ADHD. So there is a very real difference there.

And I think now it's becoming even more interesting because some research, and this is a bit of a sidestep, but research into AI, deep learning, they're finding there's a difference in how people with ADHD even talk. So they're picking that up too. And all of these things are all about different ways to diagnose ADHD because obviously right now it's really complicated. It takes a really long time. It's very much like

The expert has to look you in the eye kind of thing, you know, and it doesn't necessarily fit. And sometimes, you know, they don't get it right. That can also happen. But when we think about the neuroscience, we think about systems like that. These systems offer this beginning nuggets of a much better understanding of how people's brains are actually different. And we just need to figure out how to get the technology right.

Because right now it's a whole amount of time. It's a lot of money. It's not something that you can do as much. And I think the advances will really help with people, particularly people who are skeptical perhaps around neurodiversity and how that works. Is there any specific challenges that people who are diagnosed in adulthood experience?

versus when you get diagnosed in childhood or is it really just more is that just more context no there are definitely big differences um so people who get diagnosed in childhood they tend to be people who have their adhd sense of self a bit more integrated um it might come with its own sense of you know self-defeatism right from the beginning which can be really tough but often the people i work with they have a late diagnosis and so what that means for them is that they're

it's a huge mindset shift. I can't even begin to explain it, but it's like the rug gets pulled under their whole life.

Things that they thought were just part of their personality turned to be part of their ADHD. Things they thought everyone was being a little bit too much about turned out to be real problems that they were having. It can be a massive, massive shift. And so for a lot of people, it's not just about the diagnosis and what to do now. It's also about almost like an accounting of their life. They have to re-evaluate.

reframe everything that happened. Like, you know, sometimes people will want to go through and actually like re-narrate a whole story. I know for me, when I was, you know, diagnosed, I had to go through and go, okay, I thought that I kept, you know, cause I did psychology and then I did public health and then I did sociology and they were like, you can't do sociology. You haven't done enough studies, but I did it anyway. And, you know, like I kept switching and, um,

And I thought I just hadn't found the perfect job. I was like, I'm going to find the perfect career and then I'm going to be quote unquote normal. You know, I'm going to be neurotypical. I'm going to be able to do everything like everybody else seems to be able to do. And the truth is it was my ADHD. And so that was a huge, a huge mindset shift and also a little bit sad. Like there's a bit of sadness there as well for younger me who didn't know that and kept throwing herself into another world.

degree another thing to see if this would be the one do you think having a diagnosis in childhood would have would have changed that for you or anything else about about your um your journey to where you are now it's tricky because you know it's the whole butterfly wings thing i think i think on the one hand yes it would have been nice to know

But on the other hand, it depends on where we are in terms of the ADHD conversation. At the time, I think it would have meant that I didn't go for as many things as I did. I was classic, working super hard, burning out. But it also meant that I won awards in my school. I was able to go to university and get really good grades and all those kinds of things. And that's...

That has really supported me for where I am today. So it would be hard for me to say I wouldn't, you know, want that. And particularly for adults who get a diagnosis, how can working with a coach help them process that diagnosis and start to develop the coping mechanisms that are effective?

I think people probably talk about this, but you've got a toolbox when you have ADHD. You've got a toolbox of strategies and medication is one tool in that toolbox. The coaching strategies are another. Then we also have like diet, exercise, things like that, that we know from the research that helps too. And then we have, you know, emotional regulation, therapy, those kinds of things. And so when we look at this whole tool belt, if you're only going with one tool, that tool might not

That tool might break. I've worked with a lot of people where, especially when we're talking medication and psychiatrists, they know this as well. It's like hormonal shifts, perimenopause, you know, age,

you know, sometimes medication just stops working for some reason and we don't even know why. So medication is a journey. Like sometimes people will go on it and it will work forever and that's amazing. But there is a journey where sometimes it won't work. Sometimes it won't work and then they'll say to their partner, I don't think it's working. And their partner will be like, it's working. You have to keep doing it. Because they're like, no, you just haven't seen the things. But maybe for the person internally, they're like, okay, well, this is still not working for me. So I need extra. So it's, it,

It's that combined strategy. You want a holistic strategy so you feel super confident you're showing up, getting all of the different supports you need. You have all the tools in your tool belt that you can pick up on different days. And in terms of if we take it back to the workplace, are there any, because we talk a lot about how to support people. I'm also very focused on, given the state of management in the world right now, just not doing harm.

So if we bring it from that perspective, are there any absolute no-goes, don't-dos that will have serious impacts specifically for people with ADHD? I mean, I think number one is like, don't say somebody has ADHD if they haven't told you. And if they have told you, don't tell everybody else. Like those are the things I would say, like ADHD is a personal decision. It's a personal choice. Um,

I talk a lot about people. Some of those wonderful people have volunteered to share their neurodiversity. Some of them have not. So, you know, don't do that. That would be my number one. And are there any simple changes that employers might be able to make within the physical environment that might support people with ADHD or the neurodiverse conditions? So I think mostly it's just a diversity of environments.

So as much as possible, I know it's not always possible, but if it's not possible, then you might have to, if you're a small office and you don't have the option to have some like areas that are for quiet space and some areas that are for more, you know, community chatting, that kind of thing, you might need to consider letting somebody work in a coffee shop.

or maybe even from home. So either you give them flexibility to have diversity of environment or you have diversity of environment. Those are the two things. If you say to everybody, you have to come back to work and the work is in this co-working space and there's a lot of noise, don't expect people to do very well because the productivity is often going to go down. And could that be a

having that flexibility as well, could people potentially work better at home if they have ADHD or does that very much also then decide what the home environment looks like? Yeah, it very much depends. It very, very much depends because, you know, one of the things that we see is that people who have ADHD, they're going to

I have had people say to me, I can't work from home. I absolutely can't work from home. It's not enough stimulation for me. And I've had people say, I can't work anywhere but from home. So I think it really depends on the person. Again, you're talking about a struggle, but then how that struggle manifests. It also depends on the home. I have two toddlers at home. That's going to make a big difference. You've shared so much wisdom, Sky. And I'm wondering if there is...

If there was a magic wand and you could just change one misconception, one misunderstanding or one aspect of what is currently happening in businesses when it comes to ADHD or the neurodiverse conditions, do you know what that might be?

When I talk to people in offices, especially, you know, they'll, you know, managers will come to me afterwards and say, Oh, I have a question. I didn't want to, you know, it's usually like, I have this person and they do this, this, this, and this, and this, and they have ADHD. And so, you know, I'm like, Oh, all ADHD people do that. I'm like, no, that is a, that is a problematic person that you need to work with in a whole variety of different ways that I'm not

equipped to teach you about right now. Their ADHD struggles over here need these particular strategies, and you should definitely do that for everybody. But often what people in the office are seeing, and I think this is the number one thing I would say, is they're seeing ADHD equals

this one person who's a struggle in the workplace, it's a flashing light person. They assume that all people with ADHD look like that. And then when you say that, and if they're saying it to me, they'll say in the office, oh, ADHD, it's a problem. You're going to have a ton of people in the office who

have ADHD, who haven't told you that they have ADHD, who now think, okay, well, they think that Bill and ADHD are synonymous, but actually I'm not a huge fan of Bill and his ADHD is its own thing. And I'm not going to share my own ADHD now because they're going to lump me in with somebody specific. So that's what I would say is the number one thing I would say is don't assume that

people's ADHD is going to look exactly the same. People are complex. ADHD is a part of how they're showing up. And I think that's so true of people

of other aspects isn't it that tendency to over generalize and group people together and and yeah have this overwhelming consensus that's just how how things are um I mean I think the conversations are being being had much more now and you know people do seem to be educating themselves more um if there is a leader listening who is perhaps thinking I probably need to do better in this area where would you recommend that they start my recommendation for you would be you

you know, like I said, you can message me if you need any of them, but just go ahead and try the prioritization filter. Try the step into focus routine for yourself. You'll probably find it's very, very helpful. You'll probably find, you know, steps two and three aren't very necessary for you, but you can kind of see how that would be helpful. If you start to do that, it'll, it'll sort of D it'll, it'll make this not some mysterious concept. It'll just be like, Oh, these are just kind of useful tools for when you're having a

a tired day. And if you have ADHD, that happens more because that's kind of how our brain is all the time. So those sort of things are going to help to de, I don't know if I want to say destigmatize, but you know, remove some of the mystery from what's happening. And that'll make you a lot more comfortable when you're in your office and somebody says, I just can't

I just don't know which one to start with. Oh, just do this. You have your own tools and you can kind of share them. What's the question I should have asked you about ADHD that I haven't? For the people who have ADHD who are listening, I think the number one question that I

people want to know is like, okay, well, what should I do if I'm feeling super overwhelmed at work? Like, what do I do? Well, I think the first thing that you need to understand is that your systems are probably too complicated or there's none. Those are kind of the two spaces that people go into. So sometimes people think I need to get a new app and they absolutely don't do that. If you're listening, do not buy a new app. I can see you don't do it.

So what it's about is about understanding the processes, understanding how your brain works. And so the first thing I would say is,

figure out, learn how to go, okay, I need to brain dump a bunch of information. I need to go through that information and say, okay, these are all the tasks I have to do today. What has to be done today or there will be an external negative consequence and I'll feel bad doesn't count. And I said I would do it, but they don't really care. It doesn't count. What is the stuff that has to be done today because of a bill or a meeting tomorrow?

what has to be done in the next seven days for the same reason. And then we look at the rest and we prioritize according to that. Systems like that, so simple, but they can really change your day. So I would say, learn the processes, then apply those processes to your preferred

app, journal, whatever it is, don't buy a new app. It's not going to help. I like that. So it's about understanding the fundamental process rather than the technology that might support that process. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sky, thank you so much. Reminders work. Can all listeners go to find out more about you, your work, your podcast? Yeah, so you can find me on the internet as unconventionalorganization, that's organization with an S.

You can find me on Instagram at unconventionalorganization. And you can find links to all the podcast links there as well. But my podcast is the ADHD Skills Lab. We talk about the latest research in a fun way, promise. And, you know, we also, you know, have interviews with amazing people who have ADHD. Brilliant. We will leave all the links to that in the show notes, Skye. Thank you so much.

Well, well, well, that was such a great interview packed with stories and strategies that I guarantee will make you think about ADHD in a very different way. If you want to learn more, then go to unconventionalorganization.com or find Sky Watterson on LinkedIn, or maybe join over 80,000 people who follow Sky on Instagram. The same handle at unconventionalorganization. That's impressive. And why are

got your phone out make sure that you also follow us on Instagram and on the LinkedIn connect with us there that's where we kind of have most of our conversations between shows and the YouTube if you're still listening on audio only I salute you my friend that's my preferred way to listen to a podcast as well but

Al's put a lot of effort into redesigning our studio and it's well worth a look. So go over to YouTube as well and just have a little gander. And maybe on YouTube, drop us a comment saying, Al, you smashed it. We'll know what that means. On Instagram, go, hey guys. And on LinkedIn, go, just listen to your interview with Sky Tagarin. It was exceptional.

Yes, we very much like that. We'll be back on Tuesday, of course, with our This Week in Work series and our world-famous weekly workplace surgery, where I put your questions to Leanne. Until then, have an amazing week. Don't do a Jamie Dimon, which if you've listened on Tuesday, you'll know. Just chill out. Yeah, and here's an idea. Don't answer the phone tomorrow when your boss calls and want to see what they do.

and I'd imagine the good ones are just going to send you a message and go you're okay everything alright and the others are going to send you a really ranty swear like I can never get hold of you vertichese cheese day anyway have a lovely weekend have a great weekend see you soon bye bye