E43: Expert insights for recruiting (and keeping!) talented teams in Vietnam
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So if we could distill this then into your top five tips for a global business or brand or entrepreneur coming here to set up a team. Okay. What five tips do you think you would give in terms of HR recruiting a team and keeping a team? Okay. Yeah.

Welcome to You Don't Know Vietnam, the show that demystifies Vietnam for global audiences by talking to the creatives, trendsetters and business owners who are taking on the market. Forget what you thought you knew about Vietnam, it's no longer that, as you're about to find out. I'm Ian Paynton, co-founder of We Create Content, a content marketing agency that builds audiences for global brands in Vietnam.

We make global brands relevant among Vietnamese consumers with always-on hyper-local social media content. On this episode of You Don't Know Vietnam, I'm talking to HR expert Hang Ngo, who's been working in Vietnam's hospitality industry for 15 years. She's now in charge of recruiting and keeping staff for brand new intercontinental hotel group properties in Vietnam, Southeast Asia and Korea.

Today, Hank shares her top 5 tips for recruiting teams in Vietnam. She tells me the difference between a good workplace and a bad workplace and we discuss that all-important topic at this time of the year: the TEP bonus. Is it really compulsory? Why is it so important? Does staff really expect a whole month's salary? And will they do a runner if your business can't deliver?

We top the conversation off by looking at the hospitality trends Hang is witnessing right now in Vietnam and what she's expecting to see in the years to come. Good episode, this one. I enjoyed it. If you enjoy it too, give us a subscribe on Spotify and Apple. Share it with a colleague or someone you know in your network who might enjoy it too. And visit wecreatecontent.vn for more information about what we do.

Hang oi! Yay! Hi, Yann! Nice to see you. Thanks for coming on to the You Don't Know Vietnam podcast. I'm super excited over here. Yes, very excited to be on your podcast and join the first in my life as well. Me too. And I'm excited because A, I love Vietnamese hospitality and B, I think you've got loads of insights to share for our global audiences about coming to Vietnam, setting up team. But first, I want to talk about Vietnamese hospitality because

For me, right, if I could bottle up one thing and share it with the world from Vietnam, it would be Vietnamese hospitality. That welcoming nature of the Vietnamese people. How would you describe Vietnamese hospitality?

Wow, 25 months, my 15 years in the hospitality industry. So I have a lot of things to share and see the industry moving from quiet place to booming place in 2019 and COVID time and now recovery time. So I can see a lot of changes. But as you say, we are very unique in terms of hospitality. We have our own characteristic and personality. But when we talk about Vietnamese people, we...

If you travel and you see the difference in Vietnam compared to other countries, the first thing in a hotel, when you enter the hotel and see is very young and approachable people welcoming you over the lobby and bringing you to the room and so on. So this is the first thing that makes a very good impression. I don't think you can find in any country in the world, right?

And especially we are very young populations compared to many other countries. We are considered as the young population countries. So people working in hotels nowadays, they are Gen Z and they are becoming very soon Gen Alpha and so on. So that is an advantage for hotels in Vietnam. However, there's one thing I have seen.

Which is not really a good thing, but we have room to improve. It's that Vietnamese people, we are smart. We are very smart. We win a lot of competition, math, scientists, chemistries, and so on. But we are a bit reactive in a way that because of the education system since very long, that takes us to the position that we listen to requests and we deliver exactly what you want. But that also means that we will not be taking initiative and ownership in doing something new.

So something that the new investors or anyone who wants to invest in Vietnam can think about, like, it is if you can do something to increase the independence and the confidence in our South.

then you have found your goal of life. Wow. Yeah. Dropping inside bongs straight off the bat there. I've got loads of questions for you about that, actually. But what I'm hearing is one of the strengths of Vietnamese hospitality is that its young population means tourists or visitors to Vietnam are welcomed by this youthful, approachable energy straight away. And that is very welcoming, isn't it?

It is. And the very good thing is that I have seen many young people, they want to join this industry after finishing high school. Before in Vietnam, working in hotel is not considered very high.

I don't know why they think working in a hotel is not as prestigious as working in a bank or a state oil company. There are not many people who want to send their children to this school. However, this trend has shaped a lot of best schools in Vietnam, top schools, I should say. They started to open new vacancies in the hospitality industry.

because they see a loss of demand. And just to share with you, every year, our industry needs about 40,000 more people to join. And the delivery of all the schools, I'm talking about the college, the professional school, university, and international schools, we can produce about 15,000. Wow. So there's a shortage as well. Yeah. And not to mention that any operating hotels, we also like a lot of people. So we have a lot of opportunities in Vietnam hotels for people.

So how do you attract young people then to hospitality? As a global brand, what are you doing to attract young, energetic Vietnamese staff to your company?

The good thing about Vietnamese market and people is that we really love good brands. International brands, word of mouth works very well in Vietnam. So before we do any opening of the hotel, what we have to do first, especially for the brand debut, like in 2024, we have two brand debuts in Vietnam market. Then what we have to do first is to show the entire market what the brand is.

First, it is one brand in the family brand of IG. And second, what it is, what is the difference between other brands and what it brings? And what is the international standards and value that it can bring to the people? I think all of the hotels are having very good connections and relationships with all the schools. And we talk to the students. We have very well a visit to the school or we bring the student to the hotel to see what the real-looking environment in the hotel looks like.

Because if they only listen to their parents or grandparents, working in a hotel is checking in, checking out, cooking and serving the dishes. But it's not like that. Working in a hotel, it's way better than that. And it improves your personality as well. And are there any challenges with regards to hiring and retaining young people in Vietnam in the hospitality sector? Touch my pain. And it is hard because...

As I mentioned, we are lacking about 25,000 people every year. And the competition is very fierce because we are losing our people to other hotels, to new hotels, and also to other industries and to other countries. Because our population is very young, they don't mind moving to other destinations. They don't like to move to anywhere as long as there's an opportunity for them.

So it is about the opportunities and people they really want to jump up in their career. That makes it very hard to keep the people. Yeah. So how do you do it? Each company, especially international companies, we will have our own strategy to retain people by some room to grow strategy. In IG, we do develop a lot of journey program, which is the post-track program to develop a person from the first graduate level to middle level.

And right after completing this section, they move to the next journey from supervisor to manager and manager to XCOM level and XCOM to hotel number two and hotel number two to GM. So this way we have a very clear career path and we communicate this very clearly and widely to all the students. They have very clear belief that if they stay with a company long enough,

They can grow very far instead of jumping around and not stable. So you need to show them a clear route for their career path. Sure. And a lot of example of success. Got it.

Is there anything about purpose? I hear like a lot about Gen Z aren't only looking for the most money. They're not only looking for the best benefits. Is there something about purpose here that you tap into to help keep people? Purpose is one thing which works for entire world. But for Vietnam, more than the purpose, it is a connection between the managers and the employee. One, they trust you.

then you can share whatever the vision, the purpose, anything, the action plan, the goal, they will believe and they will deliver.

However, in order to do that, to millennials, it is easy. To baby boomers, it is a bit easy. But to them, it is getting difficult, but it is still possible. But in Vietnam, you have to win the people's hearts before you can win their action. I think you've been in Vietnam long enough, Ryan. When we work together, we do not only work together, but we also share after work life sometimes.

We like to bond. We like to have some after work party or we share about our personal life, something not so sensitive. But as an employee, I will seek for your advice in career, but I also seek for your advice in personal matters as well.

I found that I felt like the workplace unit is quite an important one. There's definitely a sense of camaraderie, being part of a team. And I've noticed that it's important to eat lunch together. Yeah, it is. Do things after work together. Not all the time, but occasionally.

Yes, and team building activities sometimes, trips, especially after tech holiday, there must be one trip together to build a team and bring the team together. It is something that doesn't work in many countries, but in Vietnam, it is very essential. You mentioned tech holiday, and I think something that may or may not surprise global audiences or global brands coming to do business here is that you're expected to pay a 13-month salary, right, during tech.

Yeah, correct. Talk to me about that. Ah, okay. I receive a lot of questions from other people from our counterpart in IG asking, is 13 months bonus a mandatory thing in Vietnam? Of course, it's not mandatory, but it's nice to have and sometimes it has become a must-have.

Like in tradition, Tet holiday is the biggest holiday in Vietnam where people bring something to the family to support the family financially, but also to show the family some sort of security that they are making money and they are taking very good care of their life and they can take good care of their family's life as well.

It doesn't just the money itself, but the meaning of the money it brings to the family and the bigger family. Because in Vietnam, once we are in a family, we are always in that big family. We could have three, four generations in one family. In some countries, when you turn 18, you move out and you have your own family, right? And you visit your parents and your grandparents from time to time. But in Vietnam, family is considered an entire family. And we want to show the family that we are in good shape. So...

As a company, there's this kind of unwritten law that you should be giving a bonus to your staff during tech. And ideally, it would be a whole month's worth of salary. The common practice is one-one. However, in hotels, I have seen from after COVID until now,

Hotels in Hanoi, hotels in Ho Chi Minh City and hotels in some other destinations down there, Nha Trang, are doing very well. And they are not only paying one month, but they are paying like 1.5, two months. And in Hanoi, I think last year, we paid about 3 or 3.5 months per person. Wow. But this should be factored in, shouldn't it? In the beginning, we do set up the business budget for next year, right? So like business plan for the following year. And each month, we accrue some sort of money into that fund.

And the base is always one month, minimum one month. However, if we see that the business is going up, then we can accrue more money into that fund. And we have all owners and all the leadership team agree with that. But the good thing about Vietnamese people is we do feel the pain and feel the happiness together with the business owner. For example, when the business is going down, automatically the employees will understand that the bonus will not be high, but they accept it.

So we don't have to be so sorry about that. But they do share the pain with the owner. But when the business is up, of course, I expect something to be higher than the bad years. I see. So it's not necessarily something that will make or break an employee relationship. And they're not going to just jump ship because maybe it wasn't a full month's salary. Oh, no, no. From my experience, I know there's nothing worse than...

Getting here, starting a business, running all the numbers and then tech coming around and being like, shit, tech bonus. Where's that money coming from? It's like the worst feeling. So if I was going to give any advice to global brands, business owners coming to Vietnam, I would say from day one, think about tech bonus, even though it's a year away. What are you doing for tech bonus? And stick that money away throughout the year.

accrue month by month and setting the timeline right. You shouldn't set the hotel to be open by end of the year and you have people joining by mid of the year because you have no revenue. And maybe by the time that you open the hotel, your pocket is out of money anyway. So you have no money to pay out the bonus, which is not a good thing. So think about the timeline when you want to start to have people, when you want to start to have business.

And what is the bonus that you can propose to the employee? I really like what you said, though, about employees.

feel the pain and the success with the company together. This is really what I mean when I say the workplace really feels like one in Vietnam. In some countries, in some cultures, we say company is not your family. You just come work, get the payments and go home, right? But in Vietnam, I think the mindset is once you work for a cell company, you feel like that is part of your family and you need to contribute to that. So...

That is our, I think that's our trait in our personality and DNA. That's why we are very loyal to company unless the company treats us very badly and the manager treats us badly then no more family. But yeah, we share the team. So what does being treated badly look like, do you think, in a company in Vietnam? Sometimes...

I see some managers treating the employees just like the previous generations, where the managers is the boss and he is always right and he has the most power over the employee. No, in my parents' generation, the boss is always right and they have the right to call, to shout, and to use that language to the employee. And the employee have to accept it without any defense. This is not happening now.

a lot, but still happens sometimes. And especially when you talk about the young population, Gen Z, they will not take it even for one time. If you do that to them one time, they don't care. They don't care about table nurse. They don't care about salary career. They care about their own human being, their dignity, and so on until you hurt them.

So it's more about the mental treatment than anything else. So when did that change then, do you think? Because Vietnam is still a very hierarchical community. And I think inspired by Confucianism as well, where you kind of accept what the elders say. And, you know, there's always this kind of

issue around calling someone your older brother or sister. There's no I and you. So when did it start changing in the workplace whereby just because you're my boss, you can't talk to me like that. I don't have to accept what you're saying. I think it is when the second generation of the millennials, they start to join the business. And when we opened the economics, again,

1990 something, then we, state-owned company is not the only choice. We have a lot of private companies, right, in the sector.

Then the millennials, they take over the leadership roles. And these generations, they are different from the baby boomers, where they have their own thinking and they're very smart. And the educational system changed as well. And then the Gen Z take over and we take everything very fast from international. A lot of Vietnamese people are studying overseas and they come back and they bring that culture back. And I see now a lot of international companies, they put human rights at the first priority.

We've talked a little bit about what makes a kind of bad work environment. What are the things that you would say make a good work environment in Vietnam? So we talked about Tet Boner. We talked about hanging out together, eating lunch together, having bosses that are open to hearing ideas. What else do you think? Before, we used to care about the salary only, but now it's becoming totally worse.

that makes sense to the employees. So the work environment we should say here is the package, of course, and then additional benefits that bring to the employees. For example, the insurance is a key thing that if you want to hire the best talent, you should really consider to have this. And I see many hotels, they are starting to offer the insurance, the premium package to the employees and the family as well.

Of course, it costs more, but it means a lot to the employee and it links to the man involved and links to the security. And it can guarantee that you can retain the people for a long time. Well, many people, they say that they chose to stay with the company because of the insurance package they have for the family. Right. So security seems like quite a big thing, not only for me, but for my family as well. Yes. Yes. And if they have two offers, one is with insurance for themselves and one insurance for themselves and family, of

Of course they go with the family. Right, right. So if we could distill this then into your top five tips for a global business or brand or entrepreneur coming here to set up a team. What five tips do you think you would give? In terms of HR or in terms of anything? In terms of HR, recruiting a team and keeping a team. Okay.

You should first understand about the culture. Vietnam, we are not a very big country, but we have different regions and each region is different. And if you study about Hanoi, it doesn't guarantee your success in doing business in Ho Chi Minh City and vice versa. Especially when you want to do business in some remote area or anywhere else, you have to do very thorough research on the culture there. People are different. They act differently.

And again, in Vietnam, in order to have a successful business, you need to win the people's heart. That's the key thing. And if you want to win the people's heart, you have to understand the culture. What do they like to do and what they don't like to do. And sometimes, don't get offended because of the way that people talk. I remember I saw one post from you.

earlier on LinkedIn about getting back from UK trip and somebody talked to you, right? This is just something just very informal, casual, and that show that we really care about you. But some people will take it as a personal thing and they feel offended. But Vietnam is a very common thing and that means they like you. So just for the listeners that didn't see that on LinkedIn, I got home from my Christmas trip

from the UK to Vietnam. And I was sat at my desk and my colleague Long came in and said, hi, Ian, welcome back from the UK. You look fat. And I said, thanks, Long. You know all the right things to say. I feel happy for you, Ian, because that means they love you. They really care about you and they really want to make some connection with you. But yeah, in Vietnam, because in 1945, a lot of people died because of hunger.

So that means even our grandparents and a lot of people think looking okay, looking a bit fat is a good thing. So it's a compliment. Looking bald. Yeah. It's a good thing. And it's a compliment to you. Yes. So just to back to the top five tips, the culture is something that you must understand. I have seen some general managers, it depends on the adaptability from general managers. Some take them about a few months to adapt to the culture and then they succeed.

Some take them two years, three years. But first you have to accept that the culture is very different here. But if you invest your time in winning the people's heart, it will pay off a lot for you. And the second thing is Vietnamese people, we are smart and we like to learn. However, we don't like to ask questions.

Right, right. For example, you give them some things, some tasks, some deadlines. Just ask them what you want. What's the question? Is there anything you are not clear about? Because they will not be asking you anything apart from what you share with them. In Asian culture and Vietnam, we don't like to lose face. And asking questions in the past is considered as being silly. You only ask questions because you don't understand. You don't understand because you are not smart enough.

So it has been embedded in our minds for so long that we don't like to ask questions. The good thing is education now is getting very open and the young generation is not like that anymore. But for the currently working population, we are still not a big fan of asking questions. The negative side of that, I guess, for a business is that a lot of time can get wasted. Correct.

working on a project where there's been misunderstandings and we've gone off in the wrong direction. And actually, with a couple of questions asked up front and answered, we could have gone in the right direction. Yes, and it leads to even the worst scenario is that the manager loses trust in the employees and they think the employees are incapable of doing things. But actually it's not. It's just that the employee is in care of asking questions and the manager didn't do it perfectly at the beginning. So the manager is wasting the ability of the employees

And the employee is wasting their own time and wasting the trust from the manager as well. So let's say a manager's in a meeting or a business owner's in a meeting and they've had the meeting, they've done a summary, and then they say, right, any questions before we leave? And everyone kind of looks around, there's silence. For sure.

What should the manager do there? Are you sure there's no questions? Like how do you extract questions from people? We face that sometimes and we come up with some solutions. Like we have a box, a question box, and we can throw the question in the box without naming who wrote the questions. And each one of us pick one and read out the question and we share. That's one thing. That's a good idea. Yeah.

We don't want to be him, but we want to be heard. Right, right. So you don't want to be put on the spot in front of everyone. You don't want to look silly or lose face. Yeah. But you do want to give an opinion. So do it anonymously in a question box or some sort of device afterwards. Trust me, we Vietnamese people, we are very smart and we have a lot of ideas. We have innovative ideas in everything. It's just that somebody needs to, to, to

Pull the trigger and then talk to them and give them the confidence and then ignite their ability. Yeah. Then a bit of tips for offering and practices like five days work week. Before we used to work six days per week on the off and then five and a half days work per week and one and a half days off. So a competitive in recruitment now is that if the hotel is offering five days work week,

and eight hours a day, it will be a great advantage for any companies. So we've got hearts and minds, questions, five-day work weeks, two more. Two more. Okay. This thing is the relations or network. It's not really about HR, but in Vietnam, you need a lot of connections and relations in order to do the business very good. In Vietnam, you need connection with the local government, local organizations, and local network as well.

So some expats who's been here for a long time, they have connection with all kind of local network and they help them a lot because sometimes your expat community cannot help you only the local. They can help you through the new law, the new regulations and a lot of procedures that is very complicated and it can be solved easily without any money, without any pain, just by donation. So building relation is something that you need to think about since before you enter Vietnam.

That's a key thing for sure. It takes time, doesn't it, as well, to build trust. Sometimes bonding works in hotel, in company, and also bonding works in creating relationships as well. For example, from time to time, you can have some dinner, lunch. In Vietnam, working lunch, business lunch works very well. And a lot of contracts inside of the lunch table. I think you know about this and you heard about this all the time. And a lot of deals are made and agreed during the lunchtime.

And the last thing I should say, this is the thing that I observed, which is quite complicated in Vietnam compared to other countries, even compared to our neighbor countries like Thailand, Indonesia or many other countries, is that the paperwork and the law and the regulations are very complicated.

Not to mention about everything, we need a license and each license takes a lot of documents, support for that, right? And it takes very long. For example, to get the work permit in Vietnam, some people may get four, five months. And in some countries, it only requires them to use about one month to get it. So you have to do very good research about the local legal or health consultant in terms of law because

We have laws for everything and it's very complicated. You should have somebody to conduct you to make sure that you do not violate anything. In labor relations, sometimes in some countries, I know you can dismiss somebody in a day. But in Asia, in Vietnam, the labor law protects the right employee a lot. So we should understand what is the right treatment to the employee. Because the employees, they know their rights. They know what they deserve and they know what they can have and they can do.

So to summarize then, Hank, your top five tips are win the hearts and minds of people, your employees in Vietnam, and be cautious because hearts and minds change from the north to the south to the middle. Many different types of people and different types of mindsets, customs, behaviors, and cultures. Yes. The second one, find ways to communicate.

Have your employees ask questions so that we can gain clarity before moving in a certain direction. Look at a five-day working week rather than the traditional six-day working week or five and a half day working week. Build relationships, take your time to do that. They're going to be really important both inside the office and outside the office.

And finally, get to know labor laws, other regulations, and have someone to help you understand that and help you understand the implementation of them. Sure, sure. Yeah. So let's say then, to summarize all of these things, what's the single biggest mindset shift that a global brand or business needs to adopt when entering the Vietnamese market, do you think?

We have the new leadership team in the government recently, and they are super, super excellent. We are having a lot of confidence in them. So the prime minister, he mentioned that he wants to invite all investors to come to Vietnam, but to bring the win-win situation. That means that when the investors come, and they should not be thinking that they come and do business in Vietnam and they are giving some sort of benefit to the employee, but it's the win-win situation. And this is the mindset we should have when we do business here, because

More and more, I see that the Vietnamese people are getting smarter and smarter and they are getting more and more confidence. And soon they will take over the key roles in many companies, even international companies, so they can see who is what looking for and who is not. So I think the mindset that you should set is that respect.

come with a win-win decision for both. Give people the work opportunities, but people give you their potential and they are very good. Trust me, they are very good. Especially when you really know how to develop them and to let them shine. And you're not going to be able to do it without them. Of course, of course. And one thing I want to share, Jan, is the productivity. In Vietnam, the labor cost is quite low compared to other countries.

So that brings to the fact that if you go to a hotel in Vietnam, you'll see a lot of cultural kick, but you go to the hotel in the US, in Australia, or any other country, less people because of the labor costs. Another side of it is because the productivity of Vietnamese people are considered low, very, very low. And we like to work in a group.

rather than working individually. The mindset that the investor should be having as well is that first, do not get upset when you see people asking for more and more money and they are not working proactively. Instead, accept it because it is still a situation that we are dealing with and we are trying to improve. And then find out which way you can do to optimize your money.

Because I have seen a lot of new general managers coming to Vietnam and they complain, why do you need a lot of people like this? And have hired the team in other countries and they can do the work. But this is not the wrong mindset if you want to start a business. It's that accept it and fix it. Show them to do it and they can do it.

That's a really interesting point. And I remember when we did one of our first ever video shoots, there was like 35 people on set on the camera crew. And I was like, guys, we could be doing this with like four people. What's going on? You know, so people like to work in groups. Yep. And I'm more productive in that way. Right.

They feel more comfortable because again, it brings to the losing face. So working in groups mean that if there's a mistake, this is a group mistake. It's not their mistake. So they feel better and it's more fun working in a group rather than just doing your own thing. And just on the productivity thing is an interesting one, right? Because I hear what you're saying, but also like when the Vietnamese want to, they can get stuff done real quick, like real quick.

They can do it, just that they don't feel the need to do it because since very long we've set the standard quite low. Even though we try to talk to the school, to students, to the fresh graduates, to the new joiners that this is how we should be working, we should improve our productivity because it is the face of the country towards other countries. We need three Vietnamese people to do the job the same as the Japanese or the Singaporean. This is not fair, right? We are the same smart.

We can do as them. With this number of people, we can do much more. To change the mindset of people, it requires a lot of time. And from time to time, the business owner will have requests from the manager saying that I need more people. I need more people. That's a great insight. So I started our conversation by talking about how great Vietnamese hospitality is. And you mentioned about, you know, especially in hotels, how young and energetic it is.

But also I'm talking about the warmth and the welcoming nature of the Vietnamese people, whether it's in the city, in the countryside, doors are open, come in, have a meal, have a chit chat. Yeah. What is it that makes the Vietnamese so hospitable? I think we were born like that.

Yeah. We like to socialize. If you're leaving the commute, you will know everyone in that commute. And we share the period whenever we go on the trips or we go anywhere else and we will bring some specialty and then get from that destination. And that's the fact that we really like to meet people. We like to talk. We like to share the happiness. And like that, it would like to build a bigger group. So I think we were born being quite approachable and welcoming.

I was in our team meeting the other day. I just got back from Singapore and it was quite a traumatic trip to Singapore. So I wasn't quite thinking so much. It was for a family issue. And I got back and in the Monday morning meeting, my colleague Ming said, where's the snacks? Where's the snacks from Singapore? I was a bit embarrassed that I hadn't brought snacks from Singapore. So that was a key thing, right? Whenever you travel, whether it's domestically or internationally, bring some snacks back for the team.

Yeah. Or if you fail to do so because of the time limit, you still have a chance to fix that by getting the team some bubble tea or depending on the age, but you get something locally for them as a conversation. It works. Just don't come back empty handed. Back to hospitality. What trends are you witnessing at the moment?

I have seen a very interesting report from the tourism departments of Vietnam. They say that from 2021 to 2025 is a time where we recover from the COVID and for local domestic market, we try to retain them and to attract them to the high-end and upper-scale or luxury segmentations because we see that our people really want to and can experience tourism.

better cementation rather than just three-star hostel like before. At the same time for international markets, we are targeting to retain our key market features, including Korea, China, Australia, while attracting new markets like India and Middle East. And from 2026 to 2020, I see that Vietnam is trying to focus more on the upper scales and more types of hotels, including the sports.

travelers and also to adventurous travelers. So I see that we are trying to increase the total revenue that we get from travelers. So not only about the number of travelers coming into Vietnam, which we exceed our target, but it's more about how much money we're getting from the people. It makes sense, right? Talk to me about adventurous travel. That sounds exciting. We have a lot of undiscovered destinations. You have, I'm going to Sundown.

I've been to Hang An, not Sundon. Nearby. Yeah. I've heard it is fully booked until 2027. So if you want to try, you have to wait until 2028. We have a lot of destinations and I used to be a hiker and I have seen that the north of Vietnam is the best destination for hiker for it is very adventurous, but the facility is not there yet.

And we see some international hotels have been setting up there to attract international travelers. I talked to a travel journalist called Joshua Zucas before, very early on in this podcast series. And he was talking about this. He was saying that

A lot of the time people come to Vietnam, they go north to south, south to north, tick all the boxes, leave and never come back. Whereas actually to increase the return rate, you could maybe do adventurous packages and it's maybe rock climbing or hiking or kite surfing or whatever it might be. So maybe that is something that's in the plans for the Vietnam Tourism Board. We are learning from Thailand, actually.

When you come to Thailand, you don't want to come once and never return, right? You can always come back to Thailand because they have so many things to travel and enjoy. So we are looking into another Thailand in this way. And we have a lot offering to many Thai travelers. Those who want to enjoy, those who want to explore the culture, we have cultural heritage. Also for those who are adventurous, who cares about different things, we try to offer them because we have a lot of undiscovered destinations.

Talking about undiscovered destinations, I know Sundung Cave is discovered. And for those that are listening that don't know, it's the world's biggest cave that was discovered more than 10 years ago. I watched a documentary recently called Crack in the Wall. It's all about Sundung Cave. And basically, it feels like Vietnam sat on the next Grand Canyon as a tourist attraction.

But how to develop it in a sustainable way that doesn't cause destruction. Because there were talks about, and I know we're moving into kind of sensitive subjects here, but there were talks about putting cable cars through the cave. People protested and these big companies listened and said, okay, we won't put a cable car through the cave. But in 2030, I think they're revisiting how are they going to open Sundung Cave to the world. Wow.

And that's quite worrying because, you know, it's probably one of the world's biggest tourist attractions. Correct, correct. Can it be managed in a sustainable and responsible way?

Yeah, because we are opening a hotel near Sonong Cave to accommodate the travelers who went to Sonong Cave and want to relax a few days before coming back to home countries. And I talked to the tour organizers and they talked about stabilize and protecting the environment and protecting the nature touch. So that's why they are already limit of certain number of people to go in every year and they have to bring everything out. Nothing is left inside. This is how they protect them, the heritage.

Yeah, but I think that's open for discussion again in 2030. Yeah, let's keep an eye on that. And do check out that documentary. It's called Cracking the Wall. Okay, will do. Really, really good, yeah. I'd like to end these episodes by asking you, what are you most excited about for Vietnam's future? I think we have everything we need to be successful.

We have the people, we have the resource, and we have the government who is doing a lot of pushing and support to the industry. And we want to make the industry to be a very big contributor to the total GDP of the countries. And I think we are targeting 10% to the GDP in 2025 and even more than that in the near future. And I'm so confident that with what we're having and with the investors coming in and with the people that we have developed,

We will be very successful and we're going to be the destination of choice for many travelers for any purpose, business purpose, leisure purpose, adventure purpose, any purpose. And I hope they keep coming back for more. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. That's what we want. You've been listening to You Don't Know Vietnam. I'm Ian Paynton from We Create Content. I'd like to thank DJ Jace from The Beat Saigon for their epic soundtrack and a massive thank you to you for making it all the way to the end.