Age of Spectacle
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More warming.

right? Welcome the people with algorithms, a show up, technology, culture of media, lot of other things connecting the dots and joined by tryon. Alex is, where is alex? Mexico need this to be a sponsored segment.

Where is alex? Is he of jury duty? What is his excuse?

Alex sent in a monolog that I rejected.

Why I think we need, we need to insert IT.

I didn't listen to. We're show about Alexis. I love alex, and I think there .

is a lot to contribute. I thread very great.

找 真人。

Before we get into IT, I want to do a little bit of feedback. I got some feedback.

And to actually get to share .

this with you, you spring this army. I going to I really appreciate their mind as opening up to the wave of people who are critical thinkers, have distrust and corporate media propagate. Don't believe what TV tells us, or what big farmer allows them to say.

Rogan facilitate interesting conversations on very niche topics from general farming, productive health, well being, historians, decorated military vets, award winning doctors had set up, listen them with an open mind, and you'll become a regular listener. There's nobody out there like him. The corporate media hates him because he facilitate three hour conversations and goes deep versus that are antiquated click bait headlines and edited soundbites. Also, there is a PS to give Scott gallery credit for coining the manual here catch phrase I didn't that's .

so pogis sky.

So I think that is like actually well, well put in some ways. And I think that is part of there's a lot of circular far earing squad going on in democratic circles right now. I think something similar is happening where it's talk about IT a little bit in the news media, but how do you recall laim trust? But I think the real question is how you re claim relevance in some ways. And there is something to be said about these long conversations that are not meeting package, if you will.

It's something that I, A market dress stop by this way. Did you see that?

Yeah, I did. I've been dug in for the full three hours, I have to have to admit. But I would IT is interesting to me because I try to like take I try to take this stuff, maybe not literally, but at this seriously, and that there are a lot of prominent people out there who are saying things like what mark and ryan says, and I don't know what in his heart.

I let let me just assume good intentions and basically he said there is two types of of cocktail parties in silicon valley, the one where people believe in your times despite the fact that they said something different like six months ago and the the kinds that he's at now where it's it's the critical thinkers in quotes or TM. How do you want to go about IT? And this is kind of highlighted this week.

I don't know if you've read any of islands like four million tweet this week, but the one they are really resonated with me was when he he's gone back to this thing that you are the media, and he's declared this several times and he actually brought in jim vande ha, that the aec O I think via joe and mika and msnbc. But jim s. Spoken at the national press club and had had done a little bit of create a core for for journalism and and the news industry, and and called bullshit.

He was powerful.

IT was good. You know, jim IT was a cLarry an call. And of course, then I got pulled in with elan mask into this. You are the media. I I don't know.

I always just find all these things just position in its marketing and branding because what cafe j journalism does is completely different than what people are doing on x or whatever. I don't think it's an either or a situation. It's just they're not substitution products and we see this all time.

I mean, the pod casters are downstream of you know journalism, right? And they pick shoes. Which of the facts that are on earth by by journalists they're going to use to connect the dots to further their world view?

I mean, I think that's pretty obvious. There is actually some simbo sis there, right? I think the chAllenge for the for the news industries of business is there are being compressed where value overwhelming.

One of the value is on the interface level. Like we to say, you control the distribution, you control the motivation, you going to do well, well. But then there is a further compression downstream of the mining of the facts, which is putting them in the context and to connecting the dots.

Now when the news minute does do that, they're being told that this is how you are road trust. If you read an analysis piece by Peter Baker, personally, I want to know what is this guy's politics because he he's clearly pushing this in some direction, right? But the problem is the monetization, it's way Better to be downstream of mining facts. It's way Better to be taking these facts and we're finding them into some kind of narrative or order to push some kind of world of you.

Well, there was a time that motive of work or creation was really monetised, able. And that was cable news. The problem is, is that you know reporting outside of the new york times and a few other source subscription driven outlets is not a game that pays the bills.

It's uneconomic, you know because the only that the way I look at it's so you said the new york times is pretty much one of the few other otherwise you .

need to be for .

and business news sector, the wall street journal can do can pull this off, right? By the way, they've been able to pull off having A A very straight editorial page Operation.

I mean, it's more than the journal, right? Like it's it's the new yorker. It's little guys that do reporting like for for you know there's still a you know a tear of media that that you know does the hard work and has a mechanism to pay for him.

right? But like when you mention, is that they are direct readers supported, if not the subscriptions.

basically to be really supported right now.

The only the most effective place to get subscriptions, however, is to alive with a world view and to in news, right? And to cater to that, look at, look what would happen. The washington post with with basis, right? I did. You know what the ironic thing is. I've been the crazy ads on x got a little less crazy because like the washington post is like they're doing a lot of like heavy growth right now because they got to they ve got to bring in the people .

that that basis washington post ads on next. Yes.

there is trying to acquisition .

as acquisition ads.

They're there's basically not saying, like you, democracy dies in darkness. The new one is like how trump is going to impact and you know the the world, which is obviously a much more middle of the road positioning. I don't know that just happens .

stands now they're competing with radio.

Ah well, that's the information face, right? So but I I think that is the chAllenges like if you're going to be everyone elites love the claim that what that what is needed is unbiased news. Now the unbias stuff, I don't know, like the ap just had big laos, like I don't know where exactly this nirvana is, and it's usually elite people that want these kind of things.

And in a populist era, I don't see how IT is necessarily a good business decision to try to play IT down the middle. You can do IT for all kinds of reasons, society impact eeta. But for most, for most news publications, IT would seem to me that all the market is pushing you to pick aside and to be tribal.

But aren't you making a broader point, which is news gathering doesn't .

pay yeah that IT doesn't pay IT. In last, you're going to align with A A word view in a point of view and a tribal identity. I think I can paint them or if you're in a really niche area that we always talk about, particularly going to line with powerful interest and help people, ideally, you make more money than you're fine.

But but brand, break down. Let's try to break down what this idea of you are the media. We are the media.

what? What is that? What is the mechanic that that that speaks to? Is IT the layers of conversation and kind of A, I guess, some type of informal fact gathering through the commons will get filtered through mechanisms like an algorithm, like notes on an expose, like well articulated view, or some type of persuasive view on youtube that breaks through that this kind of almost like water getting filtered through a stream, you know, will reveal the truth and that we can't rely on, you know, the hard work of a of an individual making phone calls, finding sources, filtering those through fact checking structures and and the media brand that that's no longer the way to get to truth or consensus.

What are the two sides of this, right? Like James is saying, being a journalist is hard work. Someone has to come to do this work.

It's many, many times. It's thankless. It's not someone popping off on twitter.

This is, this is a location. This is a profession. This is some people to dedicate your life to. This is really important. And we need, we need a structure, an organized approach to gathering this kind of information and holding people accountable. And that's not gonna come from, you know, the the people, the commons, the authentic points of view of some, you know, someone writing a two hundred character tweet. What's the argument on the island side?

I getting the argument on the island side is that if you gather enough of this material from what their recruitment we're back to citizen journalism, right, that you will have a bit of a wisdom of the crowds. IT is the same as polling is very important at seta. It's it's a profession. But maybe, maybe Polly market and maybe calling and prediction markets where people are just gambling are actually we're accurate because I think one of the chAllenges to me, and that's why I think it's starting to become obvious as the product problem in in journalism.

And I think a lot of that stems from like when the criticism hear that, oh, you said one thing six months ago and then like you know, you said something different like today, oh yeah of course, the that I think one of the embedded flaws of journalism I am sure you've seen at yourself, like, I ve had stuffer written about me really, but like, i'm sure people who ve had stuff written about them and these powerful people say, well, this isn't the full story, or this is not my, I don't believe this at all. And said then they would say, well, that that's not sure about a lot of different things. I get that because there is this idea of packaging up the corner cork.

The truth that is, in my view, kind of arrogant because like there's a lot that you do not know, you know what you know on deadline is what is what they say I mean, anyone is bit in this profession at any level knows you publish stories and like, I maybe it's just me i'm like the heart of hearts and like god, like I hope I think this is what happened but like, really like, I mean, there are so many different factors that can change. And yeah, we saw this with a lot of the examples that elon and others are talking about with the u hand lab. And all the coveted stuff has come back to be debated is like.

IT is really messy, trying to understand as a journalist what the hell is going on. Okay, but I think the profession itself makes you present a package as if it's all need and like, yes, this is exactly because it's like the voice of god kind of thing where at the very least, and I think what we see, what this uh, correspond has talked about with the rogan is trying to figure things out. And I think that that is the thing that is resonating in that there's a little bit of humility to me in that, I mean, error is the loss of, I don't agree with at all, right? But at least IT is like said in in a in a conversation when I think that is that the part that is a struggle on the product side for journal and they need little package of like, hey, this is everything you know that but inside is like OK this is we're trying to figure this out and I think that's the the interesting part of what is from chAllenged .

IT in in ways that we're shocking by throwing up a wall of his own bullshit against what he, what was perceived to be one view of the world that came from media that was hostile to him in his views. We saw this week where the wall street journal came out and said that tesla was an irresponsible environmental company that they were dumping, you know, toxins into the water.

And you know, this company that is meant to be sort of singularly responsible for a really important kind of environmental movement in elector cars was really hypocritical. At which point elon freaked doud and said, this is why media is cannot be trusted. This is bullshit.

And then you this this is is really counter to the spirit of the company and the people that are working inside of IT. And so that process to me, seems healthy, right? It's like you need both.

I think that when someone reads that tesla, a polluter in the water street journal, and that is taken, as you know, just a singular truth, you that's what people react negatively to. So your your point is that it's impossible for media to get their arms around what the real story is. And that does need to kind of go through a filtration system. But for a long time, I didn't. Is that what you're saying?

I just think because of this information space, because there's so much more information out there, I don't think that. I don't think that most of the news media corn called biased in the way that people are like me. It's just things get left out, things you you just assign the story and different stories. I mean, you have bad things written about you. Did you find everything to be completely one hundred percent your view of the truth?

No, I think that IT started with, what is the idea of a good story here that happened in a really kind of intense, you know, time and environment, or know like twenty, twenty and that there was, you know, a good story to be written.

So you go out and you try to find the the things that validates that story, right? Like in my case, in in a game of very difficult, highly political kind of corporate media environment where intense chAllenges need to happen to a company where lots of people have to leave and lots of kind of established practices need to be chAllenged, ed, and dismantled, where a union movement is fighting to to clinic change how know a group of people's position in in the kind of on going negotiation. That is an organization that you make enemies, right by necessity, and you make enemies because of how you approach problems for Better or worse.

You make enemies because, you know, you you fuck up. You you say things that are stupid or, you know, but like, you know, with contextualized or not, you know, terrible. And then you can write, you can write any story you want around that, right? You can find the people that will will make you feel like someone is doing the work of important transformation work you reflected in the economics of the business.

Or you can find a story, a threat through IT all that this person is, you know, whatever evil, toxic, whatever you however you want to frame IT. And so yeah, there's definitely two sides to IT. And then what was always on my mind is.

but we know a journalism is supposed to be presenting .

the all all sides.

right? But I I use use what you mean well.

that I mean in in this case, it's I just don't think that that's what happened. I think .

the outside .

I I and remember in in that environment, the people on the other side were afraid to say anything less. They be caught up in the in in the whole controversy, right? The people that had good things to say going to say, you know, no, that's not how this one because IT was a time of tremendous fear, right?

Like there was no, you know, I mean, I didn't pay to stand up for something IT, absolutely didn't. So as the person in that narrative, me, you can either chAllenge IT and do what you know, say, trump does, which is like, this is bullshit. This is fake news.

This is what really happened. You know, you throw something out. No, you can you go to war, but when you go to war, there's other people that are involved.

And so that means that the company that you really respect and like become central to that whole you know narrative that a lot of like I just you know, IT can get IT can get complicated legally. There's a lot of complexity in going to war. And by the way, you have to be the kind of person that wants to go to war. I don't want to go to war with people in a situation like that is just not my makeup and so yeah, it's but this isn't about me do but does I know .

I know I knew that. But my only point was I can see how that would impact how someone sees the the journalistic process and I think someone like let just assume that you on mosque is sincere and his belief that you know, the journalistic industrial complex is corrupt in some way, shape, perform, like, and and mark and dries in the same way. Like, how did they arrive at that? How did and I think IT comes down to you.

I used to think this about asset fast company, like whenever ver the who would rocky about something that I knew about, I was like, this is so thin and really not accurate. And then I started to be like, way to second. All the other stuff is probably this way. So I probably, I might want to discount the other things.

This was a different generation, but I can see how someone who has had so many different articles written about them that they have found the exact cine way that you found, you know, the stories in twenty twenty that they would just conclude that everything is bullshit if they believe, if they have the lived experience, if someone is writing about. Because, again, I have not had the experience of someone writing about me in that way. But I imagine if if I had that experience, and IT was completely opposite from the way I proceed, both myself in the world, okay, that I would be lake and this happening if you I would say war, the rest of the stuff is bulshed. Why wouldn't if it's just pull shit when it's about me wouldn't stand a reason, I think in this kind of like engineering brain .

particularly yeah I mean I I agree that people get caught in this because it's personal at some point or its chAllenging their own you know place in the world or the in the case of like mark and rison maybe you know the success of his investments, right?

Like but I think this .

is more than but but like i'll give you i'll tell you that there was a seemingly intelligent stride Young journalist who had every opportunity in twenty, twenty someone who I presented a lot of facts to and gave him a lot of people that he should have a discussion with. No, admittedly, like I said, in twenty twenty, he was really hard to get people to go on the right about anything.

Because if you are gonna a get caught in this in a way that you don't want to be caught in this. And so be careful what you say about anything, even if it's what you really believe. And there are a lot of people that I would consider you know to be supporters in france and stuff that were, you know, I understood why why I was difficult, but you can t you know, the conversations I had with this person and what this person told to put in a tidy little narrative, were completely different.

And that was this kind of journalist proper og tive that clear where the story got, like a clean story, got in the way of any pursuit of life. Yes, new once both sides and animal complete story. So yeah absolutely.

Ah I ever heard the same tube bit to check.

No.

it's like sort of a joking say like a journalism. But you know an any go to something is too good to check because like the reality is life is is as messy and the necessities of narrative are such that you have to sand off all those edges. And I think that's that's what i'm saying as the product flaw that needs to be addressed.

I don't know if it's the sea form and separating IT out like opinion or what not, but I kind of think back to when mike arton was running tech crush and he's to call us a process journalism. And IT was sort of became a joke. But I think he was kind of getting at something that was very accurate and that IT is a process of getting to an approximation of the truth.

And as such, the kinder needs almost to be presented that way because again, like I go back to in residence criticism know about masks or anything. You know that, yes, I mean, things things change like you do not they call the first draft of history because you have, I don't know, six hours to come up with some some sembLance of the truth. Maybe it's just packaging this as something a little bit different in a lot of ways.

And I think that again, I go back to like, feature articles. I don't know me, and would I ever want someone to write a feature about me? I don't know.

I don't know. I can give them like, I can give them the means of like ten people to contact who would say terrible things about. I can do that very easily.

I do think that things emerge from conversations and from informal back and forth and from maybe the insertion of people that are potentially not trustworthy. And they become kind of validated through risk like like this this stuff. Okay, this is why I didn't listen to the whole and recent rogan podcast, but there were accusations from from marketing eries and that basically elisabeth war and helms this kind of deep, steep APP aratus that is that pursues the agenda of some. Coming a ferrous bureaucratic you weapon to to like make life no difficult for people that IT doesn't like for people that they don't like or for you know their own agenda, right like and and it's not part of this notion of the deep state, which is gone from being a really french trump idea to something that's like, literally, I think, part of what is popularly in amErica understood to be a really big problem. The layers of bureaucracy and regulation and people that are .

motivated by americans hate bureaucracy.

It's just americans.

AmErica makes conspirator.

grand trace, trace the idea, right? Like this, as a platform idea that becomes central to the whole, you know, department of government efficiency to, like everything that people are talking about, about unwinding, you know, these these unproductive forces in government. This is, this is an idea that has now kind of move through this system. And it's now the idea. It's now the idea that will that will be the sort of populist platform that will drive a wave of change in washington that we haven't seen for decades.

And I think that's just the reality of living in a populist era, right? And I think in some ways I get like it's inevitable that the news media, the mainstream media, what everyone to call IT, is going to caught up in this popular series like I don't think know come Harris could have one in this in this populist time. And it's just about adapting to IT. And I don't know the best direction that.

but I think in the end it's and maybe this is just you a lame answer, but it's not either or. It's both the people that talk about. We are the media routinely, as you've said many times, reference sort of canonical sources of truth that do come from, you know, reported sources that we the jim jim is absolutely right.

The work of of a good journalist is vitally important to how society functions. And we need IT, and we need that kind of mechanism of sorting through fact from fiction. And you even when IT sometimes gets IT wrong, that it's vitally important to have that estate to keep power and check. And so I think he's right. And I think IT was was as actually you know, he said something that needed to be sad that the notion that the twitter or that social media is going to help, you know kind of replace reporting is nonsense, right?

The question ends up being I think that's one hundred percent. We are not going to. The question has been high pay for IT, right? And so one of the things that you've been on about a belief is that all publishers need to get closer to the transaction layer, right?

I mean, a lot of publishing business models are their intermediate pages. In some of ways, you don't mean like the step between. And I may see IT most clearly, I believe in these ifill's Operations. This was the way to get to the transaction layer.

Now I think you can argue that the way I was executed was being a classic unnecessary intermediate page in many instances, right? And google, who, which sets the rules of the road, has clearly agreed that they have the list of my understanding that at least of people I talked to, and they have really devastated a lot of these affiloir Operations, are publishers that were critical to their business models. How do publishers, particularly news publishers, get to the transaction where.

well, I mean, I would just back up and and I guess my feeling right now, having seen google make some what are called manual action decisions in the last few weeks, that essentially White people off the face of the internet, these are not about deep platform change. Many publishers have to just adopt.

adopt the language of the year and see like roban.

But IT IT just makes me contextualized the chAllenge for media broadly. We've seen lots of week at my alma matter and others, significantly us that reflect super chAllenging times for their for their business model. I think that the truth is, is what I would call impression base media, that is stuff that serves an audience largely free of charge, where advertising sales organizations go out and sell access to that audience is under tremendous pressure, probably never gonna come back. This is in a kind of recessionary.

That selling influence or proximity your context to to advertisers is a smaller and smaller business where IT is vital is still in video because that's the most persuasive environment to tell a story, and it's been the making. And selling a video at scale for a lot of publishers has been for sure and elusive kind of difficult the economic game. And so yeah, if you're in the subscription business, you need a paying transactional relationship with lots of folks talk to anybody that's built to subscription business.

It's hard to get that fly will going at scale such that IT pays for a materially sized newsroom and media organization. It's easier to do if you're a sub stack author, but even super successful kind of emerging groups like like poker, still pretty small businesses. You need hundreds of thousands of subscriptions to pay for a big news team.

And so you know what's what's left and what else is there. And so when you divide up where the money comes from and either comes from impression based advertising, again, largely the best business there to be in this video IT comes from subscription relationships. And that's you know that's that's a coveted game that takes a long time and really only only supports a big business at scale and there's transactional revenue.

And what is transactional revenue? Well, that's media sits between an audience and and a validated transaction of some sort. That was the affiliate business for many people that made up twenty to forty percent of their revenue in the media business. And in places where you were facilitated ating A A service based or high lifetime value transaction, like in your case, you're selling you know somebody and I don't know, add text shit that's worth a lot of money or .

use not add text shit.

you take more tech shit, okay? Or you're selling a life insurance policy or you're selling a credit card or you're selling home services or you're selling a lc registration, something it's high value know in the health category, you get a lot of that. That is a meaningful job boards even right, like a vertical publication in some space that owns the mechanism for finding good people could make a lot .

of money in job boards.

whatever you get.

The point is never they never make as much money as people think. That's my area about job boards.

Fair enough, but I had .

disaster that I we're .

trying to make the point now that publishers need a new revenue source, those transaction streams are really important. I don't think your event your event businesses going to float your your publishing company and google doesn't love IT. Google doesn't love this transaction.

Or that sits below between them, right? The navigator, the place where people started journey, the ultimate influence over where you go and the commercial entity, but let's call IT a bank. So that layer that exists, which was nerd wallet and forbes and CNN and lots of other companies, googles kind of be in hostile to them right now.

And they're doing IT to clean up the serve. They're doing IT to make room for commercial entities in the serb. They're doing IT to push more paid. And it's just it's a troubled ling time for for publishers that for good reason are looking to diversify revenue sources. So that but I left.

Nobody is out and may be it's my nobody is out protesting this and nobody is Carrying around nerd wallet science and south beach.

Like very unlikely the beneficial he buy the way.

But okay, they buy a lot of ads. So like, go figure.

will this story is missing here? This the real story is that news brands, right, got into the business of a failure IT to compete with the likes of nerd wallet. And google thinks that that, you know mostly thinks that news branch should stick to news and shouldn't be in .

the business of of facilitating .

transactions.

Well, okay.

but a lot what they .

didn't have the expertise, so they outsourced IT. And I can see look, I guess one man like transactional layer is another persons you brand arbitrage and that you're taking a brand that has authority and news and which has limited, as we said, economic value in the market right now. But just be real.

you take a brand that has awareness and trust and you put .

IT to word law law. That's one way of looking at a brand.

But what if someone invest millions and millions of dollars in content? What if someone rivals, you know, up your play, like nerd wallet, in creating content that helps a person make a decision like what who is goole to say that you shouldn't be in that business? You be in that well, you deserve to be in that business.

Yeah, I know I heard this. This is not just the U. S. markets. I heard this last weekend in in the U K. I mean, they came for the coupons first like they're for come for everything. It's really .

dangerous when google tells you what business you can be in. Very dangerous is alright.

Let's put a pin in that as they say. I want to move on to talk a little bit about how really the internet is sort of becoming real life. But I think around spectacle, and I don't know this is something and china and china sort of form.

This is I think I think spectacle is back, and know a lot of this is, and look, I know people don't want politics and stuff, but like the whole, the magus stuff is so important because societies adapt to mean, any eighties like organism had its impact on, on and in media. Therefore, a downstream of culture. And i'm seen a lot really .

stated lure.

Okay, well embedded within maga is spectacle, that the trump rallies, which were tita's c in that world, are pure spectacle i've never been to want. But everything i've seen, their pure spectacle, the jay paul, mike tyson, that was complete spectacle, IT drew at sixty, sixty, over sixty million viewers. That's amazing.

Yeah, I broke like some technology. That's fine. You had like test bar as becoming a mean immediately the fight itself was not there.

Any even stayed up for the other crime was pretty good to say. And I was reminded kind of of, do you get our componds wall in canada? kid? no. okay. Well.

this is .

actually right. When fox was found IT as one thousand nine hundred and eighty six and hora Rivera, who had just been fired from A B, C, for something they want something like syndicate ated is called W. G.

S. And I think, is that a chicago? And they did this. They found alcohols volt in some hotel in chicago. And they were going to open IT on live TV.

And thirty million people included me at like, you know, like twelve years old, tuned in into this live two hour special. And IT was a complete spectacle. They opened the wall.

There was nothing in there. But that is a matter. The spectacle was the point.

And I think we're seen is we're seeing a return to spectacle. Couple of data points that the that you highlighted actually. So thinking them from you, but one is the these look like contest.

I think there was a timid, shallow, may look like contest in a washing square park in in october. That truth of thousands, including to of the show, may itself, I guess he wants someone else actually want. But these have liked spread.

There's all these these local like contest. And that to me is just like it's spectacle, it's grit's spectacle. And then you have this live stream, right? And kyson t is doing the suber phone.

I'm like getting way over my skies of the stuff. I don't even know he's going to host the special thanksgiving live stream with Kevin heart, who I could do with mass and and juice. I have seen some of his videos.

It's part of of his mafia thon two, a thirty day continues broadcast in which he's trying to become the most, I guess, subscribed youtube. Connect the dots here. true.

What is going on? Do you see the spectacle as the as the connective tissue or something else? By the way, these things that I does like he he's been slated multiple times during in these things like it's it's this is not just sitting around .

the things I think about generation media consumption. Last night, I said to my son, my son got new glasses and he put them on to watch a movie and I said, oh, those are pretty norm core and he's like, how do you know that word and and i'm like, waiting.

Norm core, like, yeah, that's all yeah I mean, brian told to me five years ago like he's like, no, you didn't you got that off some like, he accuses me of, you know, picking up so of cultural accuse of from random places in the internet and what occurred to me with this kissing at thing is how much of culture people don't even like, see, that is really, you know, for people that are tuned in is really, really important to kind of generation influence. Like this thing is like, was he called the mafia thon to and you know, it's trying to get guess witch subscribers. But like, let's just talk about the people that passed by this talk show, right?

Like smoke was there and kim cardan's an was there and travis, you know barker from blink one eighty two was there and this a was there. And I don't know, like Andrea gda was there and liza and beny blanco, they all came by, right? In addition to get the art like these, are you significant? I mean, in the context of sort of TV viewership, these are very significant.

You know, media moments that like people that even know about, like this kid from new york that's doing a streaming marathon and the insiders, the really savy people like continuously, like the ardashir, know what's going on like Serena Williams drops by as part of some mcDonald d's collaboration on this live you marathon. This is like, you know, the numbers that Jerry Lewis did in the old days. What I would say more broadly is what we missed was streaming, where much of our consumption shifted to kind of a library model, where we took our shows off the shelf and we watch them and we love IT.

When are, you know, viewing patterns? You intersected with our friends and we say, what are you watching on netflix in all of that so we can find some common ground. Is that television, at its best, for me, is like a warm fire. It's the live, the embraces of like you called its spectacle but it's the kind of live moment that we all share in is is the moment of warm. That's why I like the nfl and that's .

why the nfl is a popular expecting.

But it's also we're all watching IT together. It's why, while watch, that's why the rights for the thanksgiving day parade are worth, you know, more than one would think and they just came up for renewal. It's why we like these life things, right?

I get that. What saying is there's not that the match final episode is not coming back as a live experience at center, don't maybe occasionally like with the are game of throne for now, but it's going to a be very rare. But I think in order to create these live moments, you ve got a much you ve got you ve got to have a spectacle, right?

The mike tyson, logan paul is a jack poll. Which one was a logan? I leave.

No, logan paul, you know, that is. That's not great. Boxy, I hope. Think i'm not like a boxing expert, but i've watch a lot of boxing my day. That's a great boxing. And watching watching a youtube take on like a sixty old mitia, it's not exactly. So what was the what was the appeal to IT that .

the appeal was IT was you know a wonderful thing to talk about before IT happened. IT was about a lot of things that was about someone regaining their glory. IT was about aging.

IT was about an underdog. No, IT was a great thing to talk about. perfect.

The build up was perfect. The fight was terrible. Fight was with the kills. But yeah.

but that's the things like the substance almost doesn't matter you the the spectacles what matters. That's why I am like to me, it's sort of an extension of the hypo, right? Like mean, the products that are pushed a lot of times with you these height be and will not aren't greater anything. But it's just this, it's just the hype self as the point you know.

funny about what you're saying. That part of what you're saying is really interesting because when that phenomenon move to politics, IT was really shocking and surprising for people who believe that space should be governed by decency and truth. right? Like you got this like you're right, it's spectacle and a trumpery looks more like a wrestling match than IT does, you know sort of political event with .

the corum. So it's .

well and in that environment, it's sort of like the broader thing that like narrative and humor and you know sort of emotion become more important than truth or facts or you know it's like entertainment wins as alex. So he says.

yeah, and I think the packaging has to change and a lot of these things because that the packaging is winning with with with spectacle, with even like there's a big debate going on with democratic circles about about joe rogan, right, and about whether the left needs to so and joe rogan or whether you common meet a massive mistake not going on you and only a SHE didn't make mistake because guess what I would have been a complete spect the code do in live like that would have been a real specter.

I don't like that changes the election. I just think there's not just a populist time and that is shouldn't have prayer really, but that would have been like really good. How many people would have you know watched that? I mean, if if anything was going to be a code include game changer, I think that could have may be then when I don't think I don't think IT was unoffered, but I think it's an interesting point about where things are going.

Aren't I wanted move on unless you have something else? One of the things is to keep on this is whether a mogae static is for me. Did you see this jg or ad that's like I didn't you know, ad controversies are they feel quint and a little metal gic for them? You know, a good rebrand. I used to big.

what was the big one in the old days .

in add controversy?

Yeah like .

a world. Any time a logo is changed, I don't know. Alex was, alex must have been. Did alex change the airbnb logo where they said IT .

looked like a agra that was for china.

said of for china.

that was a controversy.

I know, I know that still does.

I was able to say, I don't know. That was his his work. I I don't .

want to bring enough for them. It's probably he can be sensitive. So can .

you definitely? Anyway, so your point is that jaguar does this stuff.

So jaguar does this, you know. So there, I guess unveiling a new I mean, chakra is like rounding error of of an automotive brand, particularly in the us, like it's just like I don't know what I think.

not not in car culture but .

in sales. So in reality, so they're unveiling a new like rebranded at at art bottle. okay. So is clearly where the they're aim ing. This is not for the sort of, you know, a, the democrat rod for certain.

you know what they call this. This aesthetic is exuberant, modern. M.

I, yes, IT looks like a fashioned, I did you like that would be.

would done on to think I wanted hear what on a thought.

I mean, SHE wrote about IT social business check IT out and wrote about IT from the angle of you're basically taking something that I looked at and i'm like this this is like typical fashion stuff. It's not for every plan. You look at the fashion shows, the hold door and it's like, yeah, when you take that out of that context and bring topic and exposed to something that's obviously like mood going.

right? I thought if anything would end, you would have been, they should have gone to copywriting jail because they said things like live, vivid, creative, hubert, delete ordinary to lead ordinary. I love that break mode, stop IT copy. Nothing like you. You should be offended just by those .

those yeah yes, okay, that's fine. But like, okay, it's like fashion. Like, I mean, the stuff is like not to be taken either literally or seriously on my book, even that's me wearing cream t shirt.

But I I think when you take IT into like automotive, and for some reason IT really struck hunting, everything gets pulled into this like political, cultural fight. IT really struck a cord i've noticed on on x in particular, right? And IT have pulled into all the buggies.

Men of, you know, of D, I will culture everything got thrown, thrown into the mix. And then I was IT was compared. I think there was a coincident that velo had a very traditional heart warming and pro natalist because he was about like basically following the story of a journey of a family from learning that they're going to have a child to that child are growing up.

And I wonder whether, you know, advertising is gonna be under pressure to change. Its because like advertising is, if we look at all the elite ite encodes institutions under pressure, advertising is going to be one of them. Nobody believes that advertising agencies reflect like what exists in the overall A U S.

Electorate and citizens. They do not. Okay, I remember signing a story after trumps election in twenty sixteen about what I was like to be a republican.

And ad agency was a lot of a controversial. And i'd go through a bunch of different reporters for someone would actually report IT, which kind says something. But basically he was like that was like they are filled with any of you know, the sort of people.

It's not reflective of the overall society. obviously. I remember sitting in in a new york ad agency, they were batting around ideas.

And as for one of those like agency of the year corner profiles out right and IT was a bunch of like twenty something year old from wild s. Burg who were trying to understand, well, walmart moms on the hope thing struck is a little. But of course, the narrative, the narrative was such that I couldn't use that to make fun of the .

agency because yeah, I mean this giving them .

awards to get like congratulatory ads and ADC mean.

this was almost like IT was created as a sort of like something for for, you know, the new power kind of center to be angry about. I mean, this kind of gender fluid reinterpretation, discarding the heritage of a classic, kind of almost like, well, this classic english car brand, you know, that that was kind of defined underneath of at all.

This in some ways is very sexist, kind of like hot woman, sexy british gentle man, car owner, like just to kind of throw to jx, oppose the two of those. And then at the same, i'm not even show the car. I mean, this was designed for for controversy in some ways or or if you know someone just sort of like extremely bad .

timing yeah but was interesting to me is like you move from from one sincere ous era and you just seamlessly move into a new sense ous era. So like before, like language has been was being based until like in all this year, had to use these new, new words, like everyone. I was eighteen and twenty, twenty of a sudden I was, things had been centered, centered on as unlike, what is this, me, I was a kid.

We just use the words we've used before. And that obviously IT could not go triggered. A lot of people, a lot of the the psychotherapy bubble became very common. And now in this new year o, we've got new sensors about new it's like, oh, no, you'd have to do this, that and that and you can't have conceptual ads. I saw tucker carlson is on about, he's finally an architectural critic.

Now he's very against brutalism, what he calls post motor as measure of his post, basically modern m and, you know, he wants to go back to, and i've seen this a lot to classical architecture. I think it's gonna very interesting to see how this carnival of of of the sort of mega manifests itself and puts pressure on a lot of cultural industries because I believe IT is going to happen. I believe IT will. And advertising .

as one of them, I know well, I don't know. Mega will never take culture from the liberals. Never.

no IT will develop that.

Would you like kicking the liberals out of the high school? You know, production, it's never gonna en, okay. But but, but we will.

Our aesthetic will be defined, will be influences definitely by listen, it's america, a pencil and culture, right? IT always swings back. And for IT, that's what IT does. But yeah, was funny. I don't know how in the notes you connected this to sydney sweeney getting like off.

But you had, well, i'm trying to work through I was going to reveal that i'm trying to like, look, a lot of people fled from x, they've gone to blue sky, refused to do that that I I am very comfortable and trying to understand this this different world of of the you know bro culture would never want to call manos ha. And I think x is an important element of that.

I don't think IT is gna replace anything, but I do think that IT is an important knowing. I think the fact that elan musk went to buy a experts do IT to jeff bazas and buying like the washington post, I think that's actually obviously, the Prices were far different. I think that's actually if you're if your goal is to exert political influence, I think that's .

what what are you saying about sydney sweeney getting buff Brown and about anyway, the wall is on the wall.

So city the city swiming is basically she's ignorance. I never even like knew this person and she's like all over like x in this like maga culture. I think he saw this during the logan paul mike tyson fight like I do think that .

there is pro boobs.

It's a proof of culture. I don't know what else to say like IT is and I don't know if that's a sign of, you know, we're going to enter into you know the next four years or at least the next eighteen months are gonna be to find a lot by this this political force that has come in. I just, I just see IT now, the banana, six point two million dollar a banana that was taped to to a while.

IT IT got bought a ocean for six point two million dollars. To me, this is also spectacle. Some cyp to guy bought IT, but the spectacle of of the banana was to me it's a little bit of exception because .

I know it's a good example. I I i'll give that one to you. I still am struggling with.

I know I like, I like the sort of you thought about the the kind of republican esthetic being kind of big bobs, I think is good idea also. Then you put zie in the same sentence. What's up with zines?

I think zen's are part of the mathematician. Did you listen to? Like in reason, he must. What is is hip hop? Y like non stop.

Like s was he's inning.

He had the guy was hyped. I find him hard to understand. Like, I need, like, you know, people listen to podcast on, like two. X, I need to listen them one point five. Like, he speaks really fast and you know.

that is not exactly .

synonymous with trustworthy, but leave that.

okay. So we will be returning to this this idea in future podcast. I like, its good.

okay. Should we get into thanksgiving? good.

Well, we could. We could. But maybe we just drive by this the brothers war thing quickly. We won to take a lot of time on IT.

But OK browser worse well is supposedly building its own browser. The we discussed last week how the dr. j. IT once once google to split off its its browser. We've had a debate about you whether a standalone browser is like I like Alice, like ah it's not like an attractive to business. It's like it's like a sixty .

billion other business. But well, alex, alex, a little shadow he wanted to send in this monologue. He said we can figure out it's inconceivable to think about a google without chrome, but we aspire to build and you an artificial brain and put people on mars and do all the things that tech companies aspire to do that are know the macula and he's like, but we can't figure out how to do things that they don't want to do, like prevent kids from getting on instagram and and split out the brothers company in the search engine so that alex is right on that, which is fine and but but no at school, listen, the markets gna sort out browsers, okay?

Google is inseparable from chrome beneath devens made the point, brian, that what would happen if you didn't allow crime to be on android devices? Well, is that really about chrome anymore? It's all about AI do prevent anybody from using the sort of google AI API inside of inside of android like how would this actually work? Who would buy chrome? What would the business model be? There's just like a lot of questions in the meantime. This week, again, reporting back from, you know, family life, my son says, oh, I just put A I I just put ChatGPT on my front screen of my phone. It's like, i'll never use google again and he's like, I use IT .

for everything that .

searched up. No, he doesn't say we .

joke about that really arch.

This would kind of a canadian thing searched of. But the fact this is IT that brothers just put utility or piece of functionality closer to the consumer so you don't have to actually type in your area. They're already doing IT on the on your phone with open a eye with ChatGPT APP and on the up on your desktop, the browser is about to be reinvented like IT or not. D, O, G.

well, this is a classic to me. It's the old lake. You know, history doesn't repeat itself at arrives. And this is, this is microsoft versus the DJ two point out probably right? The market is they're going after google add tech dominance and they're going after, you know, its search dominance. I think the market is going to end up solving for both of those things when the government's like role and IT is just going to be like tying up google and a lot of like litin, but that the market ultimately, and it's I believe that's what we should want, is the market should be the the arbiters.

I think the government can just be a and as far as the different questions I know beneath dance loves to ask questions about lots of different things like guess what trip got elected saying he was going to like deport these millions of people and how exactly you can ask like a little me of questions, which there was no answers yet. We borrowed forward. And so yeah, there's not a lot of answers to those questions.

But je van said, how do you eat a big sandwich? One bited a time. And so, yeah, I kind of go with alex.

Like disruption happens from a lot of different directions. And I see that the tech industry, things they love to be the disrupters, not a disrupt, did. And there are one power center in society.

They're growing power center. Guess what? There's other power centers and the government is still a power center. I can't wait to see this dose thing because they start to to realize that just because your in tech doesn't mean that everything like revolves around you in society there. That's just reality.

Well, what will be interesting, just to get a little more kind of specific about the browser thing, is every navigational system needs a toll booth. You've got to have a toll booth because you need economic structures to guide the tradeoffs s that happened beneath the navigational system. You need those paid links or whatever IT is that's going to guide commercial behavior. And we don't know what that's going to look like IT. It's a big, big, big question for the marketplace so that be interested yeah.

but i'm not really I don't know. Like at a time we're trying to figure out like getting to mars and all the stuff like this, I don't know, figure out where to put the toll booth and stuff that doesn't seem like it's that like I don't know. Is that that hard?

I'm sure they'll figure get back good.

You know.

thanksgiving is a much bigger thing in this country than I ever was when I was grown up. You know, canadian thanksgiving, as you know, comes or earlier because the. Because the weather gets colder earlier.

IT wasn't like you a week of festivities. IT was just like thanksgiving. And we get the monday off.

We have a turkey at thanksgiving. No.

I mean, i'm into IT and people like people love IT in the number one holiday in america, right? People love IT.

I think IT is isn't IT isn't as tainted as any Christmas y of the Christmas thing and not everyone. It's still it's religious. It's not civic and recent its roots I think thanksgiving is .

is I mean the ability of thanksgiving is the stuffing, right?

It's going to be the stuffing for sure.

I mean, there's and there's two modes of stuffing, stuffing that comes out of the bird, which is moisture and maybe more flavor orful and oil from the turkey. And there's stuffing the overall of stuffing that gets backed in the other, which ends up having this crib adjust and stuff both of which need to be smothered in gravy in my opening, a not bullshit gravy, like gravy that's made from real dripping.

Yeah, just now it's just .

like my grama make good like when people just like start the shit out of the grave and it's just sort of like like some guy Brown like but no, you need it's to be it's to be drippings .

and don't .

can don't put, don't put cRandall ry is on everything do well.

Crypt is the most divisive part of the thing. I mean.

cranberry are fine, but don't mix them in with your stuffing, in your gravy. That's student.

I think cranberry weird. There's a reason it's never served like the other eleven sixty four days of the year.

Really, let's go point on the pumpkin versus apple. Pumpkin has its moments, but nobody likes pumpkin pie Better than apple pying. Nobody one that's .

not serve three hundred sixty four days of the year.

no. But serious ly when face with the choice between pumpkin pie and apple pie, you pick apple .

I V I face drive across alleged to thanksgiving and helicon preserve. Any wants to meet up at flip flops, which is the resort like pool at the palicar preserve retirement community fifty five and Better community.

you get a is tennis or yeah they get pick ball.

It's great. I know a lot of people give grief to retirement communities. I guess I don't like, but there are amazing like there's lots to do.

Everyone drives around in golf carts and there's golf course. There's a there's obvious ly a preserve. There's some alligators who live there.

Go around to keep the alligators. They just had baby alligators won. go.

So see how they're doing. There's a bandstand, but the others flip lops. And flip lops is the bar .

at the resort pool pretty precious.

IT gets pretty ambitious. Happy does started like three because her, because the .

Better do they play hard or dominus something?

Yeah, yeah. You got to move back. You gotten move. You're going to move the happy hour back a little bit. If you're if you're going in the Better thirty, get to start the happy hour.

Well, bryan, i'm not and am now excited about the very exclusive PVC holiday party that we've now. Yeah.

I wanted to go rebranded. I wanted to do the holiday extra. So but it's fine, fine.

Tell us what what? So we're having this at an unopened hot restaurant. German casey always knows all the hot places he said to kill.

It's kind of a guy that he knows. I know tom strictness is mercer hospitality group, and they are very, very lovely and reliable restaurant in SOHO called the lower fish bar that I go to sometimes well as a number of other places like that's an ver. Been to the bowing meat meat company that's there now.

Nice room. I was there this week with lib, yeah. So they're converting. Another restaurant of there is going to be called bar mercer. And where is going to be this sort of innovation?

L inaugural guests, we're going to rent out the room and the chaff is gonna a make the then I guess, the launch men, you are elements of IT and it's going be great. It's not open to the great. No, it's it's who's coming.

I guess just, can I take people? Can I stop?

No, but you could, maybe you could get a sponsorship, right?

Anyone who wants a sponsor, the pva holiday trac, cancer and touch, can I do? We are going to get. Can I do a sponsor? Can I do a sponsor?

activation. You wants to do a sponsor color? yeah. Well, like the we are .

going to have some program, some light programme. So I want to try this thing of i'm trying just going on my way to reinventing the webinar. I want to reinvent the panel, right? And I want to make you more like a live stream where you have like a group discussion is very participate.

I did this this new growth agenda that I did the other week. I didn't come to. It's where but it's basically like it's a rolling conversation where where where people are participants, he call people up.

It's like kind of like casual IT moves very quickly. I think that I think I might be hond to something. So we'll see how I guess that's .

so you're going to host and you're and you're going to facility and you'll do a little bit of a prep work with folks like you will ask people.

So what I do is I ask I asked everyone to submit three topics that they want to discuss. And then I just I just say, hey, i'm going to call you up to discuss this. Be prepared and and and then while IT goes, you know the frisky people present themselves in the audience.

They decide they want to get involved. And then so it's less like regimented and it's more I think along though I don't know they'll be anyone hopefully won't be swatted, but hopefully can take a few keys of what's working with these twitch streamers and reinvent the dreadful, the dreadful panel situation and conferences. I just I hate panels. I hate panel prep calls.

Maybe we can take some of what we learn from this and bring you back here. Yes, what questions are you're going to be asking people? Do you know .

it's onna go base off, base off with what their topics are?

Like I did this. yeah.

I'm going to ask everyone who to submit topics. I did this for a few events recently. IT works really well because otherwise, like first well, why how everyone would I be of me to be like, oh, I know everything that we're getting tons of great CEO.

They know that what's what's most important to discuss going? I mean, yeah, you give them some guidance that to me that's where a lot of events need to go. I don't I don't like a lot of industry events, but that's me that's .

IT for this episode of people versus algorithms where each week we uncover pattern, shame, culture and technology. Big thanks is always to our producer vanna arson ov SHE always makes us a little clear and more understandable, and we appreciate her very, very much. If you're enjoying these conversations, we love for you to leave a review.

IT helps us get the word out and keeps our community growing. Remember, you can find people versus algorithms on apple podcast, on spotify and now on youtube. thanks.

We're listening and we'll see you again next week. We will leave IT there. I hope everyone has a wonderful think's giving you too.

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