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I ran into brian monahan brians, a big fan of the podcast. He particularly complimented alex. He said he really has enjoyed Alexis emergence from the proportion reluctant podcasting to the most opinion one on this. Oh, guess so, alex, kudos to you. I also got a message from linton, where are we talking about, linked in later, but got a message on linked in saying that there needs to be awards stamm after so you have emerged as the star. This not cast .

carefully you wish for.

they must right choice. No, no, no. IT doesn't know me.

Be IT. I don't think it's true eh. I think it's it's fake news. I think that alex is, you know, like a book, guys. Not not true not true, I think I think .

not in jump america.

I think that advertising people secretly cheer for alex because they know so much of what they do is more morally.

That's what I like about advertising ing people is that they have a level of self awareness that leads in the some kind of self loading. It's really it's a nice dynamic. But one of the things speaking of that, uh, great segway that he did compliment and stuck with him, you know he brought the curve cafe and he's like, I still remember the curve cafe that is how effective that advertisement was that you know a year and a half later, he still remembers the curve cafe.

Did you tell him about the margins you had? Because there must have been great because we didn't see anything.

So it's a new native advertising format. So anyone listening out there that wants to get your message in there, it's like kind of like an ambush, like add format that i'm trying to pioneer.

So should we get started? And while nobody from my world seems to listen, everybody from your world seems like i'm still nobody knows i'm doing a part cast. But like in the media, good.

So you IT, how would you character? Ze your world? What is your world? My, who's in your world?

I mean, right now it's just country folk. Okay, salt of the earth. I mean, I think in in tech, like no, in tech, in broad tech, in in, in, in the world where like you know having a job at L B N B meant something which is not everyone.

You're you're a parasite in our audience, in our podcast.

No, I I see myself as as a visiting professor at your study college bringing wisdom. I don't .

know .

what to tell you but no, no, I mean, i'm happy to be here.

I'm just no but this pocket doesn't have a room for like cynical .

fox like you one a cynical no.

But you rode in the notes you actually wrote in. You did two things that .

I I got prepared. Yeah.

you wrote last week. You actually had the goal to send a monologue e to us, which I found personally offensive.

Three minutes long.

Yeah, I play my mom. I mean you because everybody needs to hear my scripture. No, but I don't but you do that.

I don't .

need to hear IT. No, we have a cover. And the second thing is this week you wrote, meanwhile, after some thing I was looking for input in the taxi eo, meanwhile clipt or bitcoin hit one hundred thousand was genuinely .

I thought I was funny, because he goes, how does full self driving changed the world? And I went, who gives a shit bit corn head one hundred? That is.

No, I said, meanwhile, alex is selling this tesla because you can't deal with the fact that you have a tesla. You cannot deal with IT. Your wife actually told you to sell IT and you.

that's not true. My wife was absolutely find keeping that test long until IT burned itself to the ground. I wanted to have great my car, and I wanted a nice a car.

What you.

what do you know of becoming? It's kind of becoming this thing like, look, I know access terrible, but if you don't use that, you've being walk oh, you're not owning a tesla, alex. You should own a cyber truck otherwise you have you on the arrangement syndrome and their Better cars.

Are that bro, it's okay. Are you .

going now? I'm getting, i'm getting pink. I'm getting a nice car, and that is getting a.

what do you be? The jaguar AR is going to be a hundred k. The concert, who knows? They didn't even release the, I was a big disappointment.

Thank that we brea that rebrand was a big dog like to do all that and just to show a concept car like that given .

them nothing but just they jg war only sold like eight thousand something cars in the united states like last year. They're not even they're not even making cars next year. I X sort of reminds me of the publishing industry of these of these legacy publishers that sort of have no future.

So they have to they have to do something different. And like with jaguar, there's s no coming back from that. I mean an interesting business story beyond all the wob law boss because yeah there's no path for jacky AR.

So people always like get into the oh my god, the legacy at jackaroo like like IT doesn't mean anything anymore. They sold eight thousand cars last year. Like we need to move on. Like there's a lot of brands that need to die. I think they .

have eight thousand car for a luxury car brand might be okay. I in all the way, mos, I think jack is here and sampan co, which is strange. But yeah, now you're right. Nobody.

nobody cares. No, they'll probably have to tap the the station, the brand a little harder and an election type or one of plastic jack war.

So the average jar, the average jaguar customers and their late fifties okay, and it's like a crusty guy.

Yeah english core vet driver.

yes yeah and said they're trying to completely switch out their customer base for Younger, hipper. Well.

they're seeing like these twelve year old make bank on pumpout fund making coins, you know, right now. So they're thinking their audience gonna kill way, way, way Younger. Have you heard about pump that fun?

No, what is that?

No, no. Sounds come to fun. Oh, that is crp tory. IT is crp tory. I know tri wants to talk about full sales driving, but I think the crypto to is back.

And you know, if you try, if you wanted something to own the limbs, IT could be that, you know, full self driving works. But it's also that cypher is back in full force. pumped.

That fun is a website. What are we doing? Is this the non? And this is long nonlinear .

in two minutes that allows you to create A A coin using the salona platform and put IT out there. And people are creating hundreds of thousands of meme coins. The site is generating thirty million dollars a year, and some of these a month, I think.

And some of these coins are are popping. A lot of them are not. It's essentially just like a free for all right now .

to pop out of back. Can you pop out of pva coin? We could pop .

out of pva one. I think IT only costs two dollars. And then we we can put IT here like the curve cafe, and just before everybody gets wise to IT sell IT like the court cafe. E, E, and will be, will be good.

My wife that we could, we do.

we should do, bring you right at the end.

And like, and forgot about IT. And then I was part of her, like subscription or substance, and he had, like, what do you make a coin as my honored want?

You make a coin into an add product brand and you could add, you could roll a coin into every dinner, you know? Yes, in customer read and you get a free coin. So we've got the curve coin IT.

I'll try anything I want to talk. First thing I want to talk about is, is paly market and is one of on of self driving like later. I think this is really interesting. We talked about this a little bit because I think prediction markets offer an intriguing glimpse into a possible future of corn code. Unbiased news, packing a comic had not boring, really popular, substandard.

He started the thing, boring news, which takes the Polly market data and and creates what is, you know I guess in some ways like an unbiased news product is it's it's interesting on a couple levels. I think, you know news is a really commoditized space and unique data like this prediction markets offer a way to differentiate and also ground news in in something of a shared reality. I don't know if it's like truly shared, but prediction markets did really well during the election. And so I found this pretty interesting in try what what was your so to take away from from what that .

is tried IT made me think a lot about, I think at the same time, our friend from gift rafat fd had written about formats and what's the, you know, he reference. I think you and I Brown, not alex, sadly, in a thread on twitter and linked in our discussion around what is what is the new format. And and I was thinking about IT because I thought I was really cool what he did.

So you have the peg, which is the peg is the, is the Polly market, you know, starting point, and then you take that issue. So what is the chance that pete egg's worth gets confirmed? Does defend secretary, and you then take that to an A I I know one of the several air services, and kind of like look at both sides of you of the of the bat and you turn that into a little new piece and then automatically, ally, have IT read in pakistan ice and create an audio product out of IT distributed on you.

Where are you distributed? Youtube and twitter. I found IT to be a very cool idea, but I didn't find IT interesting as a product. So I didn't want to listen to IT again. And I think that I guess that's what might take away was is that when you start with format in media innovation, you miss what really matters, which is to me, that format is a step late or which is how do you package something.

But i'm more interested in where's the emotional resonance, the connection to the audience, the thing that feels personal or informative or new, and then how do I make IT as consumable in the of in the best possible way. And so I found, yeah, the news felt dry and boring. And IT was interesting that IT started with with a Polly market pic. So that might take on IT.

Maybe the thing that's more interesting than the output of the product is that idea that, you know, we've been talking about how the fact somebody needs to make the news, somebody needs to be paid to make the news. And i've always said that, you know, with the right data source like a social media, supplemented by something like associated press and now things like predictive markets, you can get the news. You can get the news.

You don't need CNN, you know. And the way you read package IT is actually IT is probably, I think you would need to be more human, get somebody cool and engaging that has got their youtube show and put IT on, add some commentary to IT and and you know that that that could be a bigger shot. And Anderson Cooper, you don't need two hundred people on the field to get most of the news right now.

right? My wrong. But I mean, that's what this is telling me like, especially like I hadn't thought about the the market predictions things. But if you take like a social media feed, Polly market, and you supplemented with things like D A P or wikipedian stuff like that, you get a pretty compelling. Data source that you can just read out.

Yeah I mean, I hate to bring IT up but like greg, with with you know when you think about using twitter too, I mean, this is the bed right that increasingly a more information is gonna, whether it's like on block chain ever is going to be available to be prepackaged. And I think the unique data source of prediction markets is is fascinating because some of the most like to me, interesting stuff going on is around like data journalism.

And I think data journalism itself was kind of over hyped in some ways. But my favorite calmness is from the F. T.

weekend. John burn murdoch, ever. Every red has stuff. I mean, it's basically a column grounded in in data analysis. And I think we need more of that, not less.

Yeah, that's like the steep bammer thing on youtube, which yeah this sort of data data anchored in, you know, explainers.

I mean, I think the main thing is that much smaller, much smaller teams, we will be able to create the output that things with the news room you to get and IT will be much cheaper to get access to these things. I don't know how valuable and unique the x lash twitter data set is, especially now that you know that diverse and and things like blue sky having giving total free access to their content, like all of these open platforms are giving free access to their content. To all of me, anybody wants to build the analytic. So it's interesting how these things are a kind of conspiring like it's it's it's crypto with party market is federated internet with with things like like all the fees because you can get any mens and amount of invite formation and then there's all these legacy things like the associated depress and wikipedia things like that, which can supplement that like you you have everything you need that you're disposal right now to create to create .

further warmth of the warmth of personality and people. You know right? I mean, sort of related. But alex, I have you know how you have multiple tube TV and it's very useful. If you like football, you can watch four games at one time.

And I had IT on last minute and IT was IT preselected cable stations and puts them in a git of four. And IT was M S N B C, CNN, fox and cnbc. And this thing that that you said that makes me laughs so much, alex, give you full credit for IT, is baby news.

I love this idea of baby news because cn is absolutely intolerable. And the problem isn't whether their center left or right, it's that their product sucks. It's the product sex in their talent socks and and what was interesting is I was bouncing between, and I guess this was maybe seven or eight o clock.

There's a show on fox called gut field, which is is like a pack a pack of like really kind of diverse personality sitting around kind of talking about the news. But it's really a show about people like it's it's it's like a toxification mat and it's a really personality heavy like you have your sort of different art types mixing and talking politics and predictably, right for sure. But IT was actually tolerable to watch because IT was funny and IT was IT was just kind of interesting, weird, flawed people talking about, you know, issues in the news.

By the way, one of the issues, what's her name from the washington post? Brown, they had her up. They hate her. So a tailor, rends SHE is SHE .

is on .

no well but yeah tired. A lot of people she's he's .

like doing all these, like post on the red that I just like engagement bed, like .

just super I tel one per yeah.

Anyway, my point was, is that this personality heavy kind of news and jokes format that fox had cash created with cut filled like a one hundred times Better. So but I mean, as a product .

then CNN stalking, but but this is the is the the thing I think like you know how do you say CNN and all these things is like, I think they're gna. Maybe they are probably going to hold on to the grave that they are a new like the news is their product. IT can be news .

might not be a product. This is a feature. It's a Better feature than IT is a product, right? Like when you're talking about these sort of these sort of group discussion and we see this with the podcast like world is the news is like a small bit of what they is a part of what they do.

They should just be compelling content. I mean, if you actually look at what npr did and what the BBC did, like I haven't seen a lot of that from CNN, right? They went all in on podcast. They when you know the BBC is all all over the place, is creating content, is reusing its talent in all different formats as conversation shows, as straight shows, as everything like, I think you just need to you know if if you you're have an ability to produce content just like make as many formats as you want, get engaging people and they're just holding on to old talents and old ways of making things. People don't need to go to .

CNN to get the music. I think it's when I reflect critically on what podcast I returned to, I think it's the same formula and it's that I have to learn something and I have to like the people or not like them or like eating them. But it's a mix.

It's for me, it's always a mix of personality and information. Think about the pocket that you actually prioritize. And yeah, I mean, I think they have to teach you something. I think you ve got a you ve got to feel like you were exposed to something new. But really it's like do you want to hang out with these people that matters?

Yeah, odd. Lots is worse. I really like, oddly, ts from bomberg joe we and a Tracy alloway.

I got a great dynamic. I learned something regularly. They cover a whole variety of different topics.

Yeah, that's one of my predictions for twenty five. By the way, is that cara and Scott split that he becomes so annoyed with her that there is the great podcast divorce of twenty twenty five.

This curren I don't know. I think they're kind of entangle LED SHE uses his apartment and stuff like that. It's not. I think they have too much writing.

I think he secretly hates her.

I don't know.

I don't know. I think it's yeah, I think that might be fine. One thing I wanted to add to that, I think the mistake could be to say everything that we make now needs to be personally and entertainment and have these likeable kind of lose things.

It's I think there's space for many formats like I have in my podcast. We I have a few that I just dry, just like technet. You know, somebody's reading out the technet of the week. Some of them are very meandering, funny comedy. Some of them are kind of like, you know like playing english or what's the .

one with with ones once and two .

yeah how can I forgotten? I mean, those I like, you know, I don't listen to them because i'm gna get a truck or out of IT.

I think it's just similar like take ones and tools, right? Like you mean Cameron of body basically this while I understand they make IT basically is just like, oh, we're going to discuss some like .

random topic like and .

then incredibly smart academic is gna go away and like no everything like with something like a day about .

like and go tell us about bulgarian bread crisis like that's .

kind of trick but i'm like i'm here for IT like let's see what this .

guy yeah well but related, it's not rogan. It's not all rogan, right? Like there's a lot to do with IT.

I feel like i'm having a little bit of it's not a crisis, but it's I have a problem. I'm not super organize. So my media kind of consumption pattern in the morning is chaotic.

Like sometimes I go to my email, I you know often go to the new york times APP. I flip through the the ft. So I look at kind of established main's through media. Then I tried to digest stuff from, I guess, sub stack is a big part of IT, but email, e news, letters and stuff, but it's not structured in any way that that I feel I feel like it's it's it's really inefficient and and I wish I had a way that I could dump in, in all of the sources that I care about .

and we get an eye to summarized IT for is that way .

you're going through. It's not just summer. No, no, no, Alice is. But it's not just summer.

I think, feel, I feel like I often want to read IT. There's some stuff that I want to read. There's some stuff I want summarized. But I want I want IT structured, and I want to be a little, put sources in.

And I wanted to come organized IT for me so that I can spend half an hour, forty five minutes, if I need to do IT in less time, I can do. At that way, if I want to spend more time, I can do with that. There is some type of tool that that missing in my life to do this.

And the email box for me, i'm not the person that puts things in folders. My box is a mess. And so it's it's chaotic and it's not organized. And I and I wish there was a tool to do that.

I think those tools are coming. I to think I can't tell you as if it's going to be integrated street into kind of the broad chatbot, right, like some sort of A I that knows you very well because then you can kind of asked you can train IT to deliver the information when you want IT, how you want IT and in how much you know how much summary detail like it's going to be. I think we're pretty close.

Be able to say, hey, every morning, can you you know, my sources go through the fish out, things that you think I might be interesting, highlighted paragraph that I might find and rigging. And then through that I will figure out what I want to read you. I don't know if that becomes a product, if that becomes a future of of the chatbot or the U.

S, but that's definitely coming. I think in in preparation for that, i've been starting to clean up my my inbox also delete IT all am unsubscribe from all news letters, every single kind of marketing thing I get. Mine box is as a dream right now just for communication. It's lovely.

Sorry, bright. I don't approve of that at all. Alex, let's go about the browser and search because I know if you guys saw the browser company, which makes the arc browser, they did.

There is a big thing like in technos, there is a lot of like demo videos for things that don't exist. Like what did people stop? Like shipping products.

like said, I mean, microsoft was always famous for that. And thing was that microsoft would do this. Here's the future. And apple come out, which is here's what's what we're doing today. The brows er company's video .

was different because I think, right because they have the art browser, but they're doing .

an A I browser too yeah if you give me .

two minutes.

i'll give the arctic ser previously.

that would be problematic.

The arctic ser, which I think was previously the product on the podcast is a is a brothers and I was created by the the brothers company, which is uh uh A U. S. Company and they decided to redesign the browser.

So it's got a features in IT. I use IT everyday. The reason I like IT is got organization.

It's it's just a Better browser is built on top of chrome. But I and they had announced that at some point they would work on our brother too. What I think what they noticed, they raise a bunch of money.

And I think what they noticed is that there's no way to make money building browser. And also, you know, ChatGPT changed everything, right? Everybody that tells you like that was the strategy all along is lying because ChatGPT changed everything. And so that they are looking at the next product to be something new.

And there are hypothesis, which I think is great, is that AI is actually going to be an emergence, a reemergence of the open web as as kind of the the power, our digital world, where which is like you have an a eyebrows. So which is essentially a prompt or an agent that has access to the open web. And that's how you do most of what you do during the day.

And it's either by you know, until we fully transition to IT is either by an agent being able to probe, you will go and use some of your apps or access content. And in the future, hopefully, websites and apps will be built in a data in a way where the data set can communicate strait with the agents. So you're just sing, do this for me, do that for me.

A lot of the examples right now still like revolve around writing and research is the stuff that day I can do the best. But the future is like, you know, the start of computer, what you say computer, the computer does the thing you want to do. That's what everybody is aiming towards.

And these guys said, if we build the interface to that into the open web, does a Better way to do IT. Now I like this a lot. I think the only thing that's at risk is that both apple and google are not incentivize to make that reality because of abstinence es like they they still want you done on a little light on that goes on to their test up.

And you know there's different business malls around that, but that's what they're pushing for. And I am here for you know the open web with federated content and agents that can go and do stuff for you that are fully portable. You not lock to any Operating system or any device.

That's the future I think I want to see. And that's kind of what I an optimistic vision. So they just dropped that video, I think mostly because they need to talk to their investors and they need to start attracting talent that is very expensive around the vision without really saying what they're working because it's something news.

So they created at this video IT landed, you know, I was controversial. Some people liked that. People outside the industry thought they were iowa.

What is there's a new genre of these like demo videos for something that doesn't exist anymore that that I mean.

that's this wasn't that though I don't there's always like .

one agency in silicon valley that makes all these videos right?

Yeah, I think this was more like a this was more like a vision video. We're trying to build something you we don't really know what IT is. You come here rather than saying in the future you'll be able to talk at your mirror and you know it'll tell you healthy. You are like it's not a it's not a like a product vision video like that. But yeah do you like the video then .

you try I mean, it's got to be that there's someone in their circle that has sort of cinematic aspirations, right? Like they don't want to just do a video. They want they want to do storytelling and video making so their videos are cute. Yeah, they're fun.

And the CEO puts himself out there. He's a good communication.

Yeah, it's really good communicator. And I think they wanna tell, I think they're working on a really big important problem. So I admire what they're doing.

I think what what you made me think on on a drive on the on a drive this morning, is that something that I hadn't really considered before? And IT IT brings together that and sort of that new interface and this new this new search company, which it's called EXO. And what exercise to do is return highly structured results from the web. So IT wants the we B2Be a s tr uctured dat abase and IT doe sn't wan t the kin d of sof t res ponse, linguistic response, that is, you know, an L I am going and looking for patterns in language. So IT will, if you quit, IT will give you a list of all of the PHD and silicon valley, you know, with their linked in profiles that are working on A I stuff.

Like to be clear, it's it's like an A P, I for people building A I tools to access the web in a more structured way for them rather than just reading a google search.

right. And but then what that made me think is that I think we touched on this last week that google is on a bit of a rampage and in inside of their policy group, they're trying to figure out what to do with all of like searches as a zero some game, right? Someone wins, someone loses. And so there's a lot of noise about companies that are using the juice in their in their main domain, like a news company that has a domain and is used IT to advantage and affiliate business. And google then hears from smaller, more focus companies that say, what are you doing giving you space at the top of the serve to, you know, CNN or forms or who never and and that layer that a fili layby at in services or product is really, really important.

Has become really important for publishers of all types, right? Because it's as we discuss us, we twenty, thirty, forty percent of your revenue, it's your new sort of performance saat offering ETC. And then no, google is trying to say here's what you should be able to do and here's what you shouldn't be able to do.

And they're forcing new rules based on ownership of the service provider by who owns IT as the media brand owner or is set a third party owner whose IT created by as IT created by free answers that are francy for a whole bunch of companies creating this kind of content, or is IT created by staff that you pay that are focused on experts that are connected to your company? And third, you know, should you be covering this, which is the turkey st. One, right.

Like is this outside of the preview of what your brand should be about? And then I so I think that, that these are moves, obviously very unsettling from anybody that's looking to innovate around their media brand and fine new sources of revenue by by innovating, whether that's A A sports media company that wants to do sports bedding, whether that, you know, a broad news brand that wants to participate in selling financial products, insurance or whatever. And then I realized where this is going.

And here, IT is, is that google can and will become more editorial. They will decide what they put in their search results and what they don't put in their search results. And the way that we think of this them is this sort of public service that sits at the center of the open web that has to be fair to everybody.

And the truth is, is a private company, they don't, they can put whatever they want. And there. So search, if search is meant to be the most sort of egalitarian on one side, that tries to treat everything objectively.

In the middle year, I guess, a curator and you put in what you want to put in at the foreign and you editorialized. And I think that what's happening to search over the long run is you're gonna as IT fragments. You're gonna have more decision making in what gets into surge .

and what doesn't. Yes, there is a one, and they can hide behind the algorithm more, right? I mean, they always been making editorial decisions, but hide him behind this unseen algorithm that they can explain because denial game in.

But no, no, no, it's completely neutral because it's an algorithm. Algorithms are neutral and and editors and humans are biased and it's it's always been bullshit and it's just more obvious bulls ship because they are taking manual actions. They're deciding winners and losers.

And that is, like you said, that that's the privileged position, as you know, the arbiters of the open web. I think it's going to have downstream impacts for them. Like how do you how do you hide? Like what is section to the how do you get around the fact that they are a publisher? You've gotten pulled into political debates already. Trump claims that they disadvantaged a. Them couldn't find the joe rogan, uh, interview is at a messy time for google yeah .

and I think when you see tools like eza and something that I tried over the weekend, you know like those coding tools like replant and stuff like that, there is going to be .

what is replay, alex? You put that in the feet.

I don't know what is yeah I mean, I just .

there's a lot .

of driving .

I and so so pure where that .

matters, right? Like I think I I was trying out these like a lot of coding tools that help you, but know sometimes they still require you to set up your environment and installed the python stuff that you need a ff, that something like rapid, you just tell IT to do something, and then IT literally like you see that happening in real time.

Install all the kind of scripts that you need, create A A production environment for you on the server, get all that stuff test know runs tests on itself and starts programing. And you're just talking to IT and IT pills a thing. Now you add to that like access to apps like X I would like gives you access to now the open web as a whole without having to go through google.

And you can start really building like kind of cool, interesting media products. Like it's not unfathomable to think that like you know, somebody could build that boring news polling market thing just, you know, as a side project, well, you know, moonlighting as a reporter for CNN. Like I think these tools are going to allow lots of people to try different things. So I look forward to an explosion of types of media products around that because we're gonna be just .

pulling are you making something? Are you making something for us?

I am not making something for no, no, i'm not going make. No, i'm already replaced you all. You don't know idea, but you actually R A I you you're living in a simulation right now.

Are we in the manuals here.

you in the manos here matrix those you only had like red pills to choose from. But this type of stuff i'm trying to get off like look ahead here, but the the product that we're going to be using in the next maybe not two years, right, because just takes a time, time to shift, but in next five years are gonna very different because we have know the data is there and it's open and it's successive.

The tools are there like in the infrastructure there and then the tools are there to build these things very, very quickly. And if you look at of this convergence that happened during the web two boom, which you know, which created uber and airbnb and things like that, IT wasn't as perfect of the storm as as this looks like. And I think we we're mostly talking about like with a very metro lack of imagination of how we're going to replace the entire process and people's involvement with this. You know like just generating podcast set of like you know .

what's going to happen, Alexis, more and more of the feeds are gonna turn off as they are now because they .

are going to be payable coming everywhere. E walls are going to be the story there.

So the product that you want to make, right, the product that you want to make requires access free existence. And maybe, maybe not maybe .

my product is like I really looking for a great furnitures search and recommendation engine, right, mixed with like lifestyle magazine. I just see like you know, and that doesn't exist today. And let me tell you, every furniture company wants to release their API to the problem because they want to make sales.

A lot of additional content that I want is not going to be payable because it's like being freely distributed to the to federated platforms like blue sky, which is like on boarding a million people a day, like this stuff, everything's changing. So if you're the verge, yes, maybe you can pay well because you've got a product that people willing to pay. I'll probably pay for IT, but it'll be enough because there there's always enough out there to do the thing you need to do. I guess, you know it's always enough.

Maybe I want to move on and talk a little bit about media emerging like star system. This would have been Better with the first one. But whatever will go with IT Stevens Smith is apparently gonna signing A D of Stevens smith.

Is alex no idea OK?

He's a very opining ated sports commentator host. He was smart. He got out of newspapers and and went in to TV. There's a lot of people who love to hate Stephen, and there's a lot of people who find a very enjoy able.

I find a enjoy able anyway, he's signed in a six year hundred twenty million doll deal, which is kind of it's interesting, I found because we're seen a compression on a lot of like anchor salaries, news anchor, particularly at CNN and is there's a by vacation taking place of the of the kinds of people is always a question the star make the brand ders the brand make the star. And I think this is a time where we're finding out who's real, who's not like he is just just so happens they ve got put in the chair verses like who really is is moving the middle. And clearly, Stephens.

and did they make the deal .

with yeah I I wonder.

has been .

compressed sing the salaries of a lot of people but not one .

I one of these deals are competing against like VC money and this probably something stupid. So but like if he's worth like hundred twenty million doors to esp. And like couldn't you raise like forty million from a VC to do his own thing? Like if he's worth .

that much if he wanted you, could you why people do to do you? Could he .

doesn't need .

forty million to do IT yeah company, stick the money. Get on T, V, and scream out.

sure. Yeah, sure.

But he said the sort of, you know that the equivalent in your world, alex, would be his Rachel matter. In sports.

in my world, I hate retro matter. I, she's part of baby news. I mean, he is one of the worst parts, but if you listen to her, I feel like i'm a toddler being talked to like, okay, you know at least .

you know what i'm talking about.

So no, I mean, I D I saw the article. I just didn't know who he was. Yeah, good for him. That's crazy.

Those guys are gone to. You either have this kind of an alignment right where you need you need people like Steven Smith if you're you know a captive media brand or a cable brand that's moving into the world of having to attract people to your platforms, right? You need the Stephen Smith of the world.

And what I thought was interesting is that there is that alliance that feels right and that that off like that, actually, media becomes a lot like IT used to be, which is media like if you look at magazine media's example, IT was an oligopoly because I was too expensive to get in, right? IT was really, really hard to get in because building a subscription business in in the know non digital days, like building a large rate base subscription based publication, was took you know millions and millions, ten hundreds of millions dollars to build. And right now, if you building doing the hard work of building a subscription media businesses, really what's required to be a healthy media company and if you're reliant on advertising or events or affiliated, there's just you know, tons of vulnerabilities.

And what we're seeing in that world is a real antagonism between labor and ownership. And I think that's kind of interesting, right? Like it's if you look at what the the unions are saying in digital media that the buses don't know what they're doing, the bosses are saying that the unions don't understand the difficult trade, ffs, involved in the business.

And you know and as a result, there's there's it's just like a nasty, nasty time in the business. There's a you know just A A lack of alignment. And the companies right now they don't have the baLance st or the muscle to build subscription businesses are, I think, extremely vulnerable and will trade IT very, very low multiple.

And that's kind of wear we are. So you get you have a magazine like her senior reacting to the decisions that managements have to make, had to make in the last couple of weeks where a lot of people lost their jobs. I think you have you you know billionaire realizing like mark, any off that time magazine is that its best days are behind IT. And and it's a very difficult the you know asset to own because doesn't IT has a shrinking print subscription business and IT has an event business and IT has a really small digital business in a money losing TV production or documentary production business. These are hard businesses to be in china.

Yeah, they they walked out. They coincided to walk out with the publishing of the thirty on the thirty list. And I wonder, I call that thirty on the thirty no fly list.

Yeah.

you know, it's so funny. So many of these photo shoots turned to mug shots on these people. Uh.

I say that is like an ongoing joke with with the thirty under thirty list. And I don't know if it's like resonance does that. I mean, I feel like I feel like it's spin like ten years too long, but like i'm shocked that thirty under thirty has maintained.

It's importance. I guess in some ways, like people love on our refs, like i've been part of a lot of distressing exercises of doing this. People like I mean like like agency sit like I mean, people new logo was like our first person of the year. Well, well.

people love to love and love to hate list that anything about a list is that everybody can agree or disagree IT, because people are great thing to discuss. That's why like there's always top movies.

What is a good is IT worth when you're list is anonymous, at least in some course. I know how brought IT is with people who go to jail.

Is people tracking this sand back? We need raley was .

on IT stop IT. When you have a list of hundreds of Young people, some of them are going to fail, some of them we're gonna get in into trouble. Like if the list is like literally a hundred people are more, yeah, right? Like I think this .

this is a silly criticism.

Is there you go, six hundred eat you making my point, you're going to have some of them that end up on the wrong side of.

yeah, it's funny, men. It's finny.

We're not to make can we break a few eggs.

right?

I do think IT a more serious note. The union store with management, I can't come at a worst time. Do you think about all of the chAllenges that these organizations face? I mean, I was talking with someone who one of the reasons I don't wanna back into you running one of these organizations is this like IT is a unpleasant time, and I get IT from both sides. I try to I try to stand up for the cable call class while I also suck up to the power brokers by .

those kids in school.

Yeah totally. But I don't like running these businesses is really difficult when you're dealing with this kind of like international strike. First, I was trying to get to that like fox article because this one of the ideas is like, we are in these like union battles. There was like, there are some like public statistics editor, something of four. He is like the editor chief is like, out the lunch is no idea do IT is not I mean, you got to go to work with this person like that's not .

I wonder also like, and I know we just like talking about two back to back piece of news, one which is like these workouts and the ones that get paying some guy one hundred and twenty million dollars to stay on like that's going to be a yeah I know that different companies but that's that's like a such a kind of crazy reality right where like everybody is well.

yeah, that's why that's like they are good. So so reimagine, in your understanding of the media world, which is it's extremely hard to build a subscription business. So it's a lot like IT wasn't the old days. It's expensive and hard. The big difference is now there's a farm league, and the farmland gives the creator economy. And the difference between now then is that you can test all of your ideas and the, you know, the attraction of your personality and your ability to package media and server audience and all of that for almost nothing. And so there's a great big farm team layer where all future media brands emerge from this group of people that are empowered or you that, that can make anything they want, literally .

sub starkers .

pod casters. And and that's where media brands will emerge. Many of them will already have tested their proposition, building a small subscription base and or building you know a third called to personality or or you know a fan base, large way of fan base. And those people like the daily wire, like the, you know, people on the right and the left talking, you know, like color daddy will build the next generation of me businesses. And that's a difference between old and new.

And is as is, is smart to spend all your money on trying to retain like one person, I mean that like not that right. Like how is learning up like half a billion dollars to stay?

I don't know that ally different math in bridging the old in the new right. You need to realized that, that old system still makes a tremendous amount of money because it's stuck in A A shrinking distribution paradigm. And and to come across the casm to the new media world, you need talent.

So you're going this is the thing I don't get would say, way well into the the triple a bubble in video games. If you want to talk about that. The same things happening in video games where those massive investments to three hundred million dollar investments we're hearing multiple billions of dollars for for grand five dollars six is not paying out and and the question I always had is like why you making one two hundred million dollar investment verses like twenty you know ten million dollar beats like the same thing with content.

Take that hundred and twenty million dollars and build an environment where you are testing out the next youtube star and rather than pumping money into a fifty five years, I don't know how that guys you're like finding the next generation of of people. why? Why is that the bet? Why is the bet always like all in on, you know the the giant three hundred million dollar movie or the getting turned on for hf, half a billion dollars rather than taking that investment and placing smaller bets because people don't get something talk to about.

people don't get excited. People don't get excited by a bunch small bets. People get to say where, why do you think people crowd around the craps table, right? Or like know people like big bets.

I mean, that's got to be more to that, right? I don't know.

I mean, the sensible thing the sensible thing is to like be really small and like you know nimble and it's the safest thing, right? But like people always take big swings. It's more fun, I think.

Well, while we're on the video game topic, alex, I did think that that world lab demo was impressive and IT made me wonder what happens when we can take any image and make IT into basically.

do you want to what is? So the world is a new, yes, new, a new, a tool that basically allows you to create 3d worlds out of a two picture concept。 Could I take a picture?

You can walk into a one, go in.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the thing that does is IT uses its its data set to can create real three models. Now as a technical demo, s is very impressive, as if you put on the the metaverse is the future hat.

IT is what will be required to create enough content for the metaverse to exist. IT is also, you know, to my kind of rent about triple lake and have like high budget video games costing too much. This is the type of stuff where that replaces.

You know, right now, every single model, unless you can have purchased IT from somewhere, needs to be created by hand. So if you want to chair and the fucking thing, you either need to scand IT or create IT or scanned and kind of modified, and that takes hundreds of people. So having systems right now you can say, hey, make me a chair or here's a picture of this house generated in three d is pretty incredible.

And and it's going to I think it's going to change a lot of things that my question is like in the age of abundance like that, right? It's hard for us to find them. But the example I was giving is like I would have probably paid one hundred dollars, you know, when the lumiere brothers had that like train departing the station film that they were showing, you know that the first film ever made, or one of the first film ever made now is like, you know, five hundred hours of video dropped on youtube every minute.

Like where where is the value? Like, is that really does that really always come down to taste when we can create anything? IT just comes down to taste.

That's how you stand out. That's how you create value. That's how you create content that people wanna buy. It's gonna really interesting because that's you generating real fully realized treated worlds is kind of the last the last dasia of like things that take a lot of time that are just a big mode, right?

And I don't know, I don't know culture ads and flows that could be, you know, well, already noticing right now that even music is kind of pulling a little away from digital and is going into like there's like a lot of ganji and acoustic stuff coming up. I don't know. Maybe there's a similar kind of digital pull back where people just want things made out of paper machine or something, you know, you know, like you need to stand out somehow. Culture is A P OK game, right? Like, you need to stand out everybody.

I just thought a paper mache iphone pretty.

yeah. I was listening to a podcast about the works of David lynch and that that last season of of twin peaks, which was very trained and all his video effects look really bad in a way, but they're intentional because they look different to the way of visual effects were done before. And that's why we was trying to do, I don't know, maybe we're going back. Maybe that's going to be working fine body, but this stuff is is changing everything.

A lot of we want to do a little to do. We want to do a little car talk before we get into to linked. That's what i'm really that's what I i've been waiting to .

get .

in to the 是 to a use car talk， right? I would need an ultima that at least this is not my field .

is literally the worst car on the planet, is absolutely a junk.

This also is very sensible.

It's a very sensible car for very sensible. I don't know.

I would keep. I like the, I like for like the because .

the car thing is interesting. Remember as go economics in many cases, so go politics. Places like the german economy is largely built around success as being on amount of manufacturer. The game in in america, you know, general motors, ford have been the know over time, kind of the industrial and manufacturing backbone of the country. And the game is just like utterly like, different now.

And I think that if you know, you think you know japanese car makers lose share to the chinese, the germans that use, like vw, an example, used to have fourteen percent of the chinese market, six person in twenty, in twenty, twenty and six percent at twenty and twenty four. All of these chinese companies are stamp out cars like their android phones, byd, Cherry gili, whatever, and good card, you really interesting cars where you start to see the value probe shift from like how the seats are shown, although you know into is still important. But like know you you you you get in the car, you drop your phone on a little minute, you say your phone down in the entire environment reflects your personal digital world.

And and then you see you know there's lots of speculation around is is going to be know tesla camera technology verses where most lide are and tesla fd thirteen or thirteen tools where IT is now is their new self driving technology. And it's a big story for all the nerds on youtube because it's not just about F S D thirty two, although that's important part of IT. It's X A I as an important sort of brain behind IT.

It's the ability to create camera based intelligent machines, right, which is whatever there, what's their humanoid thing called. And so everybody, everybody is is really keeping an iron optimistic because if optimists works, it's probably you know the biggest market that you could ever target, right? It's a market as big as all labor.

So it's it's an enormous tam. And what you see with fsd thirty two and there's tones and tones and tones and nerds and videos on youtube during IT is literally, you get in your car, you press a button IT backs up this guy. Know what I watched was parked behind another car, pressed a button, drove him.

And like, through some complex kind of traffic situations and part of the triple like, all right, like. And you just have to wonder, like, what does that mean to everything from cars, media, environment? What does IT do to neighborhoods? What does he do to commerce? What does he do as importantly to the car industry? And you, the germans are good, a lot of things, I don't think they're good.

You know, world leaders at A I and software. How would that the undermining the german automotive industry ultimately affect the political stability of a country, right? Like the this is like a big moment. And cars, cars are a deterministic factor.

And well also, I mean, if you like, cars have always been the test of whether you have an advanced economy or not. If you can make a car, you an advance .

to which alex says, who gives the ship? Bitcoin hits one .

hundred k right?

So it's not do not .

bring that energy.

And I stand by the fact that that was that fucking funny thing to say right there. The yeah, I mean, you know, we have self driving cars and sentence ces go emos. I take that all the time.

I have used text less fsd. I chose not to turn IT on my car because I have seen too many times that my website comes to struck pit or when IT rains, I imagined a truck coming towards me. So I was like, i'm good with the web camp thing.

These are political statements .

you make yeah if these are political statements.

they're part of your condition.

And I get I mean, I know I can't say anything.

I know I, if you wanted to be a working .

enthusiasm in the dirt of .

the webcam.

I was going forty miles an hour in an empty road, and the thing went into a full stop. And I thought, man, I really wish I didn't have elon arrangement sync me now so I could have a really emotion towards the fact that distinction arly killed me. IT is very impressive.

I think that there are, unfortunately, for self driving and very close self driving cars. It's going to take a while because, you know, cities need to address to IT. IT is very dependent on the weather today. IT is still very expensive to buy these cars.

and it's not expensive there. Four thousand dollars. It's very cheap to buy these cars actually. You know, it's .

getting cheap. I mean, yeah, you know i'm selling my test. I know how much it's going for the the IT world definitely is coming. You know self driving cars is is coming. Now I think in your world, you we have chrome elon status like erected everywhere.

I think it's going to happen differently across different places like we're seeing what like byd, like china has a lot of self driving cars right now, and it's very easy for them to turn that stuff on. So we're gona see that happen in china way before you see that happen here. AmErica and is is also has like a lot of places with the network just doesn't support self driving because there is no access to electricity or or all these steps of things. It's gonna take.

It's what you talking about, no access to electricity where .

charger networks like we have a great problem here, like I know we could build self driving gasoline cars, but not the plan right now. All i'm saying is this stuff is super cool, super impressive. Test us self driving when IT works is crazy good. When IT doesn't you hurt?

Tried the new one, right? I know.

and I know that elon, breathe two years as it's very good joy and try, and he breathe .

two years since that we're gona match your car.

No, I just, why do I need IT? Why do I? Why do I need to try this out?

Like I I don't want you to try what I want you to do.

Yes, to realized that is very impressive. It's a moment. And I mean, the moments been happening for years.

I paid an extra ten grand to have full self driving in my car. I was there. I think that does just like alex.

is the reason that this is a moment is because there's so much speculation about whether tesla solution can can actually compete with lighter. That is a very big thing, right? And that's a thing that will determine billions and billions of dollars of stock valuation. It's an enormous time. And then what I did is I connected that to the new race and automotive of technology and what really going to change?

Who gives a shit bit coin? Cious reached one hundred thousand. And and you know what I did? I sold some of that bitcoin and bought myself a new car. And that's hyo tied up.

Got a hold.

You got a man. I am only on this earth for short while. I was just going to buy myself a nice car with some of my bit coin. Yeah, I you know, I try about .

presenting the fact that you you lectured me to get in on crypto.

Let's get in a linked in. I just bought a new, I just bought a new gas. Why did you .

a test sound sounds like you've got an rangement syndrome. That's a political statement you just made there.

Hi, anyway, why? Why did you buy tesla?

Actually, I own, I own all the tesla P, I own, know all the e on products.

I little bitch. And new york roads are like just .

the are x. The new york .

rods are hostile and already, already have a wagon. Actually, that is fun to x.

Why don't you get the x the why?

Why didn't I get that? Yeah, because I snot my car. It's not my life.

Do people get angry and help drive?

Speaking of your vibe, I want to get in. That's linked in as our final topic. I saw a study that shockingly, over half of the concrete fought leader post on linked in are now created by A I linked in as as integrated AI into IT.

And just in unscientific, my in mail has gotten crazier. There are is a time of if this is the future of A I not not that excited to be honor with you. And I think in order to combat that, some of the thought leaders on linked in have brought this walk and talk self hie video player.

the walking talk thing is, is, is kind of gross. Go .

to IT you.

I love IT. I love the help you think you can I you're .

doing a alex, if you start doing walk and talk videos and linked in, I think we have to part ways.

not too much of a heavy breather. why? Why not? It's a format toy. Why you always to sit down like your friends and fox.

no, no. There's something about, there's something about people that do walk and talk videos s on .

linked in which the walking work?

No, no, it's you. It's a type. It's a type and usually IT has no insight and it's so shamelessly self promotional and it's unlinked in. And the whole thing is just scrunched to me when .

you are recording a video of yourself, of course, itself I used I remember that I used when I used to work for you try, I used to receive these voice where you were obviously walking, and I was just looking. So I looked, I was thinking about this thing you doing, yeah.

loaded with insight, delivered directly to the audience.

Mean, so I to I have to listen to some some personal mbo and take notes to figure out what I have to do with IT so that the time you get to work, use tea than you do. You design? I don't know. I think I think people are trying out for mask.

Yeah, exactly. So I decided I to go to your both of your linked in profiles and preparation for alex. You and I are not connected on linked in which I don't know you're you're like a second circle so I don't .

know I might stand you.

I don't pay for in mail so we can communicate, be a linked in out. Alex has a really great about section because it's very to the point and conscience. IT just says previously co L B N B today making original video games at human computer. And then I went over a choice, and he is a manifesto. And IT begins .

with thirty years leading change .

is red in the third person, thirty years leading change, growing brands, building remarkable teams and delivering results at the intersection of media, advertising, commerce. Always finding kind of laugh, the next chapters being .

written now.

so you can do you yeah.

you should. You should.

You got me. So I went in mind and I don't even have an about section, so I got to like optimize.

I think your about the sections should be, you know me, you know me, do we have a .

good product outside of linton? Because I think link is a product.

I have a great I have a great product.

No, well, just idea. Last I checked.

IT wasn't, well, I will say like a fish food or something.

Well, are you letting me have my segment?

Yeah, they have your segment.

alright. It's just a couple things, media things. Yesterday I watched the documentary about cabinda. Do you know what casablancas .

like a brand of beans?

It's a immersive mexican restaurant in denver that has like you know a waterfall and diverse and little nux and crAnnies that kids you get lost in. And for many people that live in denver, IT was a magical place to visit when they were growing up, and I fell in to disappear, and the food look like slop, and the place was disgusting.

And trade Parker and matt stone bought IT, and they bought IT for for very little and had the documentary is about the journey after buying IT, and they had expected to spend like six million dollars renovating and IT. And they spent forty and made IT into a very kind of special experiential kind of environment. And they did IT with, you know, love in their own unique kind of humor.

And it's kind of a us of documentation. But that's not my good protists. What can we find? I don't know. It's called .

because it's called .

cash and needed immoral anyways, a super fund. I'd like this 去 忘掉 了 who used to work at， I think, but that Jones and mostly journal, I think he used to write the daily kind of news update for roper dog is what I read somewhere. But he has this .

a .

news thing. It's called news items.

Yeah, this came up like a dinner.

I really like IT. It's he's got IT in kind of baskets of really notable things, very sure, easy to consume.

He gets up the .

skin .

and reads like a million things.

world in disarray, financialization of everything, science and tech, electoral politics, foreign omelet c and it's six days a week. It's and it's a great it's a great product like a lot it's always stuff that I it's really efficient.

One hundred and seven thousand .

years yeah .

I bought IT. Well, now they .

got rates bryant newsletter.

So this is .

actually.

I have I have a recommendation for folks it's called granola that A I stupid name. But what IT does is IT installs installs itself on your computer and then when you're all in any calls, you can record them. But because it's not recording any of the audio is kind of bypassing any wiretapping laws.

And so IT just takes notes and that takes a we have way, way, way, way Better. You don't have to ask you to join your call or anything like that. You could just turn IT on at any time.

And the note that IT takes and the context that IT gets is really great. And then what IT does is that creates a little page for the conversation you have and has a low chatbot on the right. And you can ask a question about what happened during that conversation. It's kind of like a really well executed version of those AI recorders.

And I think it's much because .

all the other names were taken that's doing that's the rule .

is always yeah i'm often in meetings whether more A I net takers are humans yeah well.

this one is kind of transparent that i've been recording us all all this time .

though that's IT for this episode of people versus algorithms where each week we uncover pattern shaping, media culture and technology. Big thanks is always to our producer, vania. Arsenal SHE always makes us a little clear and more understandable, and we appreciate her very, very much.

If you're enjoying these conversations, we love for you to leave us a review. IT helps us get the word out and keeps our community growing. Remember, you can find people versus algorithms on apple podcast, on spotify and now on youtube. Thanks for listening, and we will see you again next week.

This is fun. Good to talk you guys. 然后 把。

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