Winners and Losers
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Give a hotel recommendation there.

There is a hotel I like that you could stand, try to, no matter if you can get a good, good deal, think of a garden. It's nice. good. Where do you want to go? I.

I don't know where I need to.

Welcome the people for algorithms, a show about detecting patterns and media, technology and culture. I am brian Marcy, and each week I am joined by trigg and Alice like her. This week we have to focus on the election of, sorry, we do the return of downed trump to the presidency is a remarkable comeback that also Marks a return to the disruptive years of his first term and already hard head news business.

Trump is the ultimate complex of arts, jeff, days as great term. And this return comes at a time when the the overall publishing business is really in the next. So the structural change that put unprecedented pressure on its business model.

This is something we talk about right early on the show and got us thinking about the winners and losers from this election. So I wanted to run through a few of my own. One is, this is the crater economy is clearly a winner, without a doubt. I don't know what else to call this. I've been trying to call IT the enigma.

Mean, how surreal was IT to have during trumps Victories speech? Dana weight get the microphone and then he shouting out the milk boys, the elvan and joe rogan, I me just just rewind, say, like even just five years, and and think about that as a possibilities is really strange. And this was truly a podcast election.

And IT proved to me that the era of mainstream media is giving way to something far more decentralize. And this is as a capstone of this. And that's why I think that the mainstream media overall is a loser. I know this might be piling on, but know you ve got to find face reality. Many of the themes that were pushed up by mainstream news organizations, whether was that comedian, that medical square garden or other issues, we're just simply wrong.

Ming rejected IT in the marketplace, which is the, I mean, and the old saying, as elections have consequences and this is yet another wake up call that this trust deficit for the package news media is is wide and it's growing to the point where it's not clear if I can be narrowed over time as IT was put to me the other day by someone very clogged and a washed and venture perion, joe rogan are more powerful than most news organza. That's difficult pill swallow, but I think it's actually parly accurate, particularly over the next four years. One of the other winners to me, Polly market, you know, I had a lot riding on this election.

IT is a basically to bet inside, and they call these things prediction markets, but they are just bedding. And a lot of times its odds were dotted. IT was showing trump waiting for a long time, and and there was a lot of reasons that were put forward again by the mainstream media, and they derided these odds has been easily manipulated, and in the end, the market crying up prove right.

And and that's why i've long thought the polar market has the makings of a really trigen media company. Because IT, after all, know I often say media will be the front end to a lot of different business models that are not typical media business models. And I think public market is a great example of these kind of qazi media entities that we're going to see that film avoid in the information space.

Some more losers bolsters fAllen has gotten more inaccurate during the trump peers may also ran apparently sixty thousand simulations to conclude that the race was a and then hours later, he became very clear that this was not the nail bitter that that he and every other pollster said, now they will hide behind the idea that these are are just adds and all that. And IT seems like, you know, heads they win. Tails they still do this.

The reality is they have a credibility problem on par with when the weather channel went through that period of time when I kept typing up massive storms and never arrived these days, that to save that passing terms do arrive. And I think other winners a whole is the information space IT. Notably elon musk bet on on x is looking very different right now.

I mean, I think it's hard to doubt that x is a very consequential media entity, particularly after the right word shift of the elector. Elan mosque might not be able to sell many ads there. I still do not believe this.

We are thriving at business, but the gold billionaire davin in media is not great returns. I mean, I can think of a few worse areas to make money these days, but but it's to a cruel power. And in that sense, mission accomplished.

And finally, other losers are the billionaires as media saviors. At least this is an idea. And me, jeff bazoo made a sensible business decision before the election, and this also approves that.

To me, my theory that the billionaire have a way Better data than the rest of us when IT comes to polling. In these elections, IT is not risking lucrative government contracts for what was really a pointless endorsement of Harris. You know, and I know I talked with a lots of people and say, well, it's not about the endorsements ment.

It's about a bending the knee and all of this. And like gay, I get that. But here's the thing, the entire idea of benevent lions aire is an oxy on you do not become billionaire through the ever, just not, not in the DNA.

A Patrick soon shopping at the time has proven this. Mark benny office throwing in the town on time. This is the latest in a long parade of billionaire that have come in.

The media have gotten punched to the nose, and I quickly retreated. This is not a business for the faint of heart. IT looks much easier on the outside, and IT is on the inside.

We discuss all this on the show today, and then alex spends lot of they wondering whether anything matters because in new media and terminal to quite, that's this point of you. Hope, enjoy the conversation. And if you do, please leave us a rating in a review where you listen to this and send me some feedback.

The mrs. Y, at the reputed 点 com， we did guest on last week remove sure for skivers, we're not going to have more gas. I want to see if that's what people are interested. anything. It's a good to mixing four month hope in the show.

I think it's best to look at this a little that clinically, I look at IT is just trying to dissect IT through the lens of all the stuff we talk about on this podcast. So may be we probably will not get to the mystery of of latino voters, that setter that's cry for the best. But I want I want to get into what this means for the media industry going forward because I think this is the first information space election and IT IT gave some vertical, that's for sure. First, what about their your experience watching IT for you are traveling rates, so you do not even tune to c nn. Or I was for the beginning of IT.

I was sitting in the airport launch, and so I was listening and watching on my phone. I was very curious about how Brown limbs and his production group would spin up a new kind of show. And that was the amazon prime show, and I watch I watched that and would foot back and forth to, you know, CNN.

The interesting thing about the prime special was kind of awkward. They didn't really have, you know, the kind of run the show down. And he kept getting interrupted by these announcements.

And they we're sitting in this mgm projection facility is like a mini version of the sphere. So they had these crazy, you thought, right, right? Those crazy razer backgrounds.

What I like best about IT were the guests. So they had Peter happy and scotland all away. And although was funny that they brought down harison to give people breathing exercises. And like tiktok influences.

they have a calm integration.

You know.

I said up, so IT was .

IT was a little huge page, but was kind of fun. And I thought that the count that they brought in was refreshing, not like classic cable television talking heads. So they wasn't really nice cutting amateur r thing about IT and IT was almost like the internet came to the to the broadcast studio yeah so a lot of people from the kind of emergent world of podcasting, next generation media know this sort of columnists, ation of the world.

Those people are perfect for. People like Peter hanbury, who's great, know those people are great additions to to the coverage. And I felt IT felt more both informative, I suppose, and me know kind of interesting. And IT touched my world more than the CNN approach.

Now I totally agree IT IT IT was amateur s at at times, but I kind of like that. And I think that's like overall, what we're seeing in the media world is all the high production values are declining in many ways and giving you sort of any advantage in the marketplace. And I thought IT was interesting.

He wasn't the same old thing, but IT wasn't totally, totally different and so good. And I think we're going to have more they are going forward because I think a big takeaway from this, I want to get into the winners and losers. But I don't know if this you can come to any other conclusion, but this is like sort of the end of the mass media eura some ways because this election was not really close.

And I think a lot of us expected IT to go this way. But you know, this is coming on the heels of basically since donal trump roll down that, that escalator and institutions have failed to respond in any kind of way to the chAllenges that he has presented and to think that a decade on, they've been thoroughly repudiated and the media doesn't come out of this looking good yet again. And when you look at all of the chAllenges we talk about every week on this arctic.

can you do IT doesn't look good. why? Because I got .

IT so wrong. Yeah, I am. At the core of the trust issue, right, is that I believe that a large group of this population does not believe that the media focuses on real issues. The the guy telling jokes, a master square garden.

Well, that clearly wasn't the the big issue that the media is making out to be nate silver, who know is a great example of the the expert class ran eighty thousand simulations to find that there was a dead heat. Guess what? IT wasn't a dead heat at all.

The overall, the entire polling industry needs to be emulated and needs to be rebuilt. It's clear that whatever their viewing from ancelles to all of the the data jockeys is not working. Add, add.

And then you look at the issues that you know the mainstream media, the package media has been pushing in the narratives of, you know, don trump is an existential threat to democracy, guess what? People voted and and they voted. They said the top issue was, you know, protecting democracy and they voted for thumb.

That's just. Else across the board. I don't think there's any other way to spend. Am I wrong here?

No, I think you right.

okay. So that's .

a big yeah well, well, what else did you look at? Let's let's keep going on this. I'll be curious what Alexis in other maybe went to his bomb shelter. But you know, I I think one of the Better predictions for me as I kt, I was actually treating a bit of coin, bit coin at the same time. I was honest and I so I was I was on calling based a lot because I thought that the Price of bit coin was a good prediction of where was going.

One of things that I would say is I watched the beginning of this like I was getting dinner in in miami, and nobody was watching the T. V nobody, like zero people, more people were raping than watching the the T. V.

well, the time did a good job. Again, not not talking about the time of the coverage. I was talking about the, the interface was great.

Well, I got the middle back. That was good. I mean, inie.

they had the middle in every, in every state. It's just the way they presented information. Was school alex.

what was the scene on threads?

Oh, I I turned everything of and I just checked this morning. I don't know. I didn't sleep. I was trying to listen to a movie podcast and fall asleep, and I couldn't fall a sleep.

And then this morning i've just checked and that I was that I don't understand why people would commit himself to so much suffering of looking kind of numbers go up or down for hours. I I was in, I wasn't into that. I think IT was too consequential for me if where to become sports.

So I don't I don't, you know, my wife and I both turned this things off, just, I played video games and then went to them. That was that people started texting me, screen shots and shit. And I was like, I just turned the whole thing off.

Alex, when you woke up, where did you go?

I used this thing called brick for my phone, which basically it's like a little thing, but I put on my fridge and I tapped my phone against that, and IT turns off all the apps. So the only thing I had available was like, first I I checked our threats, our little message group. There was nothing useful there.

And then I went to, I went to C N, N, N, B, B C and google news, and then I went to threads. And, you know, threads is like just on fire right now, because I been, obviously people were in a bubble in there, people in different bubble on twitter. But you know, the gry, the grifter sphere has has won out. I think in the next few years are going to be insufferable.

Okay, and let's get into let's get into the winners.

I think I don't know, I don't know how like my elon arrangement syndrome is is going to age. I I stand by IT.

Well, he's going, he going to stay. He's going to stay in the united states now he's like on to the egg so we'll get rockets and the rest IT when I get some other stuff. But let's talk about the winners. You mention the grifter sphere. I mean, I would maybe like explain what you mean by the drifter sphere.

It's the joe rogan extended universe, cinematic universe, right? It's like that whole podcasting, mostly podcasting, youtube manufacture, supplement selling, you know 3 posing， you know, platforming whoever wants to talk to you for three hours, vaccine denying kind of environment that's like that's one over like we I think people under well, I have huge family ah yeah I love, I love this stuff. I think that makes IT makes a safe and smarter one. A guy i'd used to make people eat like elephant balls on TV and coco taches. Now, you know helps our presidential candidate one that's great.

It's great. Yeah, that is not worthy. That dinner weight I took took the microphone at the the trump celebration and and called out the neck boys and an Angel gan about above all else that the all in guys didn't seem like they had guy shot out such as the shame.

But I think it's pretty clear the olin guys fit in a different category, which is all the the billionaires and masters of industry that were seeing the tight turn and decided to suck up to the new king before he was new king. Knowing that if by chess, haris wood, when SHE wouldn't be as retta as trump, i'd be so everybody shows up great.

I'm a one, my god.

I don't know. Maybe it's because the european education teaches you .

a lot about the dangers of but that was rejected by voters. We can't sort to get around that.

And to be fair, the election went rather smoothly. You upside, you know?

Yeah, but it's very clear that the pocatello come out as a winner in this. And I think broadly speaking, he talked about the decline. We've talked about a lot of mass media, a lot of these influences leaking out to the places like podcasting and what I call the endeavors. And that has emerged as, to me, a clear winner trio think .

I think that's true. I think that the rogan thing that tempted in particular went a long way to sort of human. And I think this style of conversational media was really important in the election.

I don't think its influence was over emphasize or over estimated in terms of the winners. I think alex ies write the brows one e on one. Seemingly corporate amErica will will benefit. I think that type of sort of center right partisan media did great.

I think in the end, everybody added on the vance, and he turned out to be the sort of president of the yellow debating club, and I think showed up as a, you know, a confident started partner to fight trump battles and never back down from them. I think this will position him incredibly well. You're you're in fossil fuels. You're probably a winner.

Let's stick to media guy .

is true if you if you the planet or women, you kind .

of early A D probably broadcasting.

But I think even if you look at even if if you look at the media landscape that that you know the grifter sphere as we call that it's mostly melder. It's it's so boy, it's incredible and vote and a voting patterns lined up.

But but this is like a try one. Everything didn't. It's not a male thing. If you look at us like he, he want ten points more in manhattan is an other repudiation.

I will give people a few days to sort of get over the heart, feelings and stuff, but it's time to look inward. And this is an a messaging problem. It's a problem, problem, right?

The coalition is is broken. There is a big problem. I don't know how you put, if you do the democrats, you have to do a huge amount of soul searching about what is fundamentally bring a group of people together.

But I wanted talk about the media ais role in this, right? Because after twenty sixteen we were told that was russia, where taught? That was canberra. Alisa and his facebook, all these different things that were trying to explain a phenomenon that people didn't like, right? And there wasn't like a reality.

People, people got jd van's book to try to understand and for a little bit, but there wasn't really an acceptance of reality that this very unusual character had tapped into something that is broad within the and elect IT and and just american people and first IT was and it's still you hear oh, it's just you know, racist and and that just makes you worse and then all the he's brought in a coalition to include linos and IT trumped into terrible really with with women overall. And so it's hard to really I don't see how you come out of this without thinking a lot about how the media has the mass media in general has just not figured this out. And I don't know if I don't know if I can at this point, and I don't know where he goes from.

Here is IT like twenty seventeen, where IT goes back into the leaders of the resistance, right? Does that make an accommodation like the billionaire? I don't know.

What do you think is the path that, that will be taken? People are going to have to figure out a path. And I think what basis of sahl was? He saw the numbers. There's another thing I think clearly there's a lot of people had way Better numbers than the one that we were fed. Clearly.

there was a memo went around to the billion airs yeah.

I don't know what their powders are like, but they're clearly Better. They are running Better simulations than than need severs because that was a clear choice. And I think jeff bazas comes out of this actually in a weird way. People would like to hear this, but as a winner, he hedged the bed when I was a good idea for who, for what like he's not going down with, you know, consternation in the washington post news room.

He's not going to do that. Yeah, no brand. You make the things you said with IT so much with me, and I think that I will come. I call that you you need new coalition, which is a set of ideas that that brings me know people together and gives you something that collectively can represent the energy of a country. Because what has the, you know, G, O P done?

There's been a complete realignment of the working class to the top right, and they've completely taken sort of non college educated americans from the democrats in this election. Major unions declined to support the democratic party, which is a break with history. They lost latinos. They lost black men.

They no.

no. But I mean, in terms of percentages to eroded right and and White suburban ites shifted even more strongly to republicans. You know, when I step back, I don't know in addition of needing this kind of like new ideas that can aligning group of people that are just not the sort of talking points that seemingly came out of the media that didn't resonate at all.

And i'm saddened by what I think was in america's just kind of basic sexism from actually men and women, that it's really hard to get a female elected president in this country. I think that there is broadly speaking, and I I don't know the best way to frame this, but I think it's just a pure, a woke backlash where what people don't want this is kind of what is understood broadly to be this kind of sensitive liberal wow, coming set to be the defining characteristic of this, you know, time. And voting for trump is a complete rejection of that.

You know, you can talk about this without, I think will look back and say what we had a really weak candidate like. I like como, and I think she's, I just find her likable as a person, but I think is a leader and as a presidential candidate. SHE was, he was unable to separate from the biden legacy.

SHE lost on israel. SHE lost on on immigration. SHE lost on inflation. SHE lost on, like all the issues. And so all of these things together and and I think that you know I don't know how you know what kind trumps savantes can understanding of his core constituency in the know is like obviously has a very good sense of what people want and I don't think it's coming from you know of magistrates gist and that one IT just did IT won in a democratic system. And so the other side is like, you're right. Like what was the media's role in this and what does that mean to the to the dnc? And I think these are these are really complicated, you know, questions that need to get resolved before another election.

Yeah, come on. Hair also has spent way more money on advertising, and I mean, put a lot of money on advertising. But also that needs to be in a world where mass media has clearly lost its central role in society.

This, the political class, the political consults, love to pour money into advertising because they run the firms and they get rich off IT. I mean, it's crazy. This makes a tech look like, you know, a charity business.

But IT didn't work like and anything like you spent a billion dollars to do worse. You're literally starting off in this country and like you've got Donald trump up against you. You're starting off with like forty plus percent. That's that's your basement. Like that's that's where you know IT is and you're just building on top of that and you spent a billion dollars more .

than a billion. You know the other strange thing is the Normalization of chaos, like our culture has become so accustomed to just chaos. I think I think it's exhausted.

Well, I think that is is interesting is when we talk about how you, a journalist, cover the trump return, it's gonna be in twenty seventeen to twenty twenty. There was a lot of those. The washington post, I think I actually started was like, we talked to forty three.

I named the officials and then I was like, okay, some boy's fighting with somebody trumps region I mean, Maggie verman was like, you it's like, oh, no, trumps region. It's like, oh, god, I am. We clearly can't go back to that.

And also, again, it's just wholesale rejected. I I go back to that. Nobody was looking at those at the tvs.

I don't think trump too, and I could be wrong. I don't think it's going to I don't. I think covering IT, the way IT was covered with who's up, who's down makes no sense at all.

Because of that exhaustion has been set in. now. People, the, the, the, you know, this is the popular voice has been heard.

So people want this guy in office and early agree more with his policies and comparing is but how the media covers this, I think has change. And I don't know whether they fall in line. I don't think that's .

obviously people don't. I mean that we're just stating the obvious. People don't trust and they don't care. The media didn't change people's point of view.

But I guess the question and the being is that the job of these news organizations, right, is IT the job wealth?

sure. Of course, that is it's .

to change people's points of you.

Well, I mean, i'm not saying that, that in a partisan way, i'm saying by informing people, yes.

I think they're different things.

You don't think people were informed and that's what they voted a certain way.

I mean, it's hard to talk well, okay. So what does that take to persuade someone that help like if I presenting things like if I call you a fascist or despot or I alien all the people that were close to you general acceptance say you're not to be trusted or I say that your policies around deportation or insane and in practical, or I say that your terror policies are going to create inflation.

Now those all of those things would either need you to believe that there is a Better alternative, because you believe them and you trust what someone saying to you and IT persuades you, or you believe you just take their bulls shit and you're going to go with this, you know, interval barger. Like if you don't trust the things that people in, you know, institutional zed media are saying to that they're both the right things and they're believable and they matter, then what's the purpose of the media? Like what what replaces is ah .

I don't know I don't know, it's scream. I mean if only just the terms right like seeing the level of education around. The proposed tvs microplane about the media was that I was trained this weird kind of centrist.

Both sides cover both sides with the same amount of further. And I don't think that resonated with anyone. I think the stuff that resonated was the stuff that was already talking people into the things that they were feeling.

I think this was a very like vibes election. I don't think people voted on. I don't know. They probably, you know, the gas is more expensive and they worried about foreigners coming into the country.

The problem is gas isn't more expensive.

So I doesn't matter. No, but the day doesn't even, doesn't even matter, is just like virus, right? People feel like what the life has become more expensive.

Oh, I think there is span inflation. I just in gas. yeah. I mean.

the economy is the economy is doing great. You know the compete compared to anywhere else in the world. It's it's hard to tell it's hard to tell what the video of that I just definitely shows that they don't have much power left, right.

And I don't even know how much rogan and stuff like that influence this other stuff, but that's the, I think IT there there so much so much noise in the data. Like, you know, he was also going up against a woman, a woman of color like god knows how people voted around that, right? Like it's hard to tell .

that but he was also a person that that he has got like dropped into the race without people voting for. I like you can't .

like untangle all arta .

the media did launder that like nobody people not done.

you're not to power and trying to remain well, that is like, yes, maybe that's a good analogy. Gy, for media like by and not wanting to get away, you know like just leave IT.

What do you make of, on one hand, sort of, I would say, distrust of institutions or experts, right? Whether that's an economist or you know a doctor, but the kind of wild embrace of someone like elon is an innovator.

what do you mean? Like, I mean, I think you know ilan is like we trust .

joo gan more than we trust like real professionals like doctors yeah, right?

I think so. Yeah and I think that's a lot of IT like we talk about IT all the time like right now, I always thought that the perceived authenticity and being a real soft because nobody really thinks that trump is someone totally different bind closed doors I got don't think what things like, I mean, what could I be if anything is more Normal like buying closed doors. But like nobody really believes that.

I think that joe rogan, it's like similar where you we've seen this decline or we ve seen like I think it's been misPriced. Authenticity has been mispricing in the marketplace, but that is not going to end that. This is this is going to be, I think, how the next sort of phase of media goes IT IT.

Is gonna be be moving more in this direction than joe rogan becoming more like, I don't know Peter jennings something and like, that's just not happy. And I think that every single trend right now is going against a lot of the mass media conventions, and it's it's a hard transition to make. That's why I think that the every single media entity is gonna need to come to terms with how they respond to this in the marketplace, right? And you look at, you know we talk about the poc model a lot.

You know it's not perfect, but like you know, they put they put personalities on front center. And I think that's gonna be a continued path that, that will be taken because again, look at the market like at the market rejects what you have like you have to adapt. You can't just blame the customer like that. That's crazy. And just to go back to politics, I think the democratic ty had a product that was being broadly rejected and kept blaming the customers and didn't work out.

I wonder if the left will start embracing their kind of like, I don't know, you call them firebrand youtube burst because there are people like destiny and stuff like that on youtube that I just like, you know, militant left, just aggressive, you know, podcasts it's it's kind of the the left wing version of that same sphere right IT exists is just like the establishment. The coalition doesn't embraced them like like the right embraced like rogan and superior and and all these guys like there's like everybodys coordinated right the left doesn't coordinated, instead it's trained to .

be centrist and and the and the amErica not a that in .

brit is IT center right .

doesn't seem compared .

to europe. Yes, it's I mean outside of like serbia and russia and a few other place like that.

No, I mean, i'm thing right now it's more right than center, right. But yeah.

well, this is at me. If you look at that, that is the story, at least initially coming out of the election is if this is a moment of a sharp turn to the right for in this country and that that goes back and forth. But IT is pretty much never been truly liberal in the american sense of liberal.

I just for historical reasons and lots of other reasons, I mean, it's embedded in like a surfer reliance and all that stuff that's embedded in the american psyche. So I think that it's always gonna be right of center and how the democratic party response is going to be interested. And when you talk about the media, I don't know to me, the market always, you know, tells you again, like IT doesn't seem like the the very hard left militant pod casters, grifters, whatever, have nearly to cut through that their counterparts too. Now maybe that was just because it's easy to be a rebel. But in this president, yeah, I don't know.

Maybe there is some basic lessons here that we could articulate and it's like this is ago, but you need your base that this shift lets call IT to, you know, it's a good I don't know it's the conversational movement in media driven by podcast brings out I think IT advantage is certain types of politicians. I think that's gonna far more of our our medium spect media spectrum.

M the world becomes, I think that kind of audio is an extension of all media is going to be way more important. And I think that people, to your point about us, them to you authenticity, are going to look for that same authenticity and their politicians, whether it's the o save or not. Yes.

I think like just by going on rogue IT doesn't even matter if people are not the forty two million who actually to watch on youtube and so many more like on spotify and apple. I think I just proves that like you can get a measure of the person and that they can like hold their own. And I think that is going to become a core feature that you need and running for, for this position.

You used to be you had to give like a great speech, right? And even like when you listen now and I said to someone like you listen to obama talk IT seems like from a different era, to be honest with you. Like I know everyone like fell off there like chair with the Michelle obama thing again, IT seem like so.

And part of that is how trump has completely shifted the norms for that kind of speech. fine. I am very thankful personally, anytime, any time I give a solo presentation. Now in the bar, IT is is set to where you think you can wander off and all kinds of different directions.

You know to get practical about that. You you think about instances like what would you do if you were now the programing had had CNN, how would you change the format if you in light of the election, would you have changed what you know, jeff also stood at the washington post. Would you have done anything differently? How would you organize the news room differently in this kind of more conversational environment? You know, do you like the idea, like the samar idea, where we start to physically kind of break facts and opinion in every article where they called the sea former or whenever? What do you think are some of the things that that you would do if you owned the legacy media to prefer for this new world?

I would start by reverse engineering. What's working, right? Like I think we started this with, like jo gan.

Why does that work? Why does this guy from from fear factor? Why is he like so influential? Seemingly let's us assume that he's very influential. Well, then why is that?

I need you there. I mean, I think it's I think there was a format that he managed to help kind of I mean, mark marine was, you know, when I started listening to podcast, mark marine was one of the first with these long form.

He was the original yeah.

he wasn't I mean, liberal like we were pretty centrists in some ways. But I started listening to him like episode for you know, when he had like you know, a handful of listeners and the format of immediately appealed to me because you could the conversations go on for a while, you can keep IT on in the background and you could get to know people, and which was interesting. And I think so rogan kind of won that, that format.

And so he's got just like just a lot of energy behind them. And I think that's part of IT like people just like listening to podcast men specifically, right? I mean, this is like this is a very male driven election even though women were when women's rights on the ballot box.

You know a lot of like male media can grows this and this kind of live concept of listening to our long, meandering philosophy is very male dominant. I can probably, you can probably figure out the gender distribution of the all in podcast. I mean, I haven't to there, but pretty sure the audience there is going to be securing a certain way.

Or lex freeman. Like, how many women listening do you think? Like freed has he does. Even how many, how many, how many women guests do these guys get on?

Like, is there I like this? Like, I like this idea of reverse sharing the product. But in what does that mean? Like is there a problem in newsrooms? Is there a culture, fundamental cultural problem in newsrooms?

Oh, I mean, probably right.

There's there's an unreality, right? And there's also like, you know, I got it's like nobody is safe, right? This person, like I just wrote a very like middle annoying ly middle of the road thing like last week about the post, right and and I got leagues like i'm done, i'm out, you know yog are supporting a fascist like what you docking about I likes I go back this person and he was very clear this person was this person's an editor, right? And there is an activist strain that's clear with in journalism that has always been present.

I think it's it's IT. IT can be good, you know, because IT that have a commission driven and this is this. After water gate, they can really strong, but I think in many ways, that goes into directions aren't helpful with building that connection with an audience.

It's very clear that a large group of people in this country do not trust journalists, and IT is easy to blame other people for that, and some of the blame is completely correct. However, they're tapping into an underlying feeling, and all the data supports that. The news is not on the open up.

When IT comes to separating people's personal opinions from their work. I mean, the reality is most newsrooms are filled with people who voted for common hairs. That is not some i'm not going into some conspiracy there like that's obvious.

But to me, doesn't this just show like I don't know how much is the doesn't this just sure that the media just the relevance he is, is dying out, which is why in the in our text message, you know, i'm pushing for us like to stop covering the media, the dime brands of the media and rather look forward at the new things that are coming.

I don't think it's entirely the right call to just look at what rogan achieved and see like what others can learn from that because remember, half the population, around half the population didn't vote for trump. Probably feels very differently. The vast majority of podcast consumers and kind of you know that that fear around youtube, vast majority or men.

So this is the question should be more, does this whole other side of the consumer, women, Young people know that that make up a large proportion of the of the audience, which I think aren't served. I think the the do that listen to rogan are very well served. They can be mediated all day long with free media that like tickles, like you know, whatever you know, nerve, any tickles and then yeah like I can tell you, like where else you go for that sort of cathartic if you a woman or or or somebody who who lives in the other direction, that's that's less evident. So I I think maybe the I feel that if media just start saying, well, we need to become rogan.

that's going to be a full no, I don't mean philo software. I mean when I say reverse engineering.

but even the format, even the how many women in your life do you know consume podcast? Are the rate of men consume? Why is that like that's the more interesting question for me. Like women do not consume pocket of the same latest .

men yeah that's sure is how do we .

know that every .

piece of like the the popular podcast, every piece of like a gender distribution i've seen like excuse heavily, mae, especially when you're looking at the treatments and the stuff like that. I mean, these are technology podcast, but you know M K B, H D and all these types of of things like these kind of youtube shows, dion tech and politics and then these types of news like seven percent women serious .

claims that that is almost so it's fifty three percent well, but they have they have an interesting and yeah.

I don't know. I think I think it's something interesting to look at. Like there's definitely like a split, like a gender split happening as well as a as an ideological one as to how like the formats that people consume. And I know I know that this probably a lots of podcast that you know that a majority women, but I don't think the numbers lined up with a rogan, there's nothing.

Well, I think that I would just be careful. I think we probably need to validate, I think that, that a lot of the big podcast milder, but I think that you would probably find you know other types of consumption. Maybe it's more fragmented, maybe it's more short form stuff on instagram and and tiktok rather than you know youtube podcast. But I think the phenomenon of you know people channeling their point of view and you know these kind of folk media people is probably universal.

Yeah I mean, this is pretty clear that people want to want to know like what the person who's he's creating the media, like where they're coming from, right? And to me that that that is a big takeaway, like hiding behind the institutional brand is not gonna cut IT anymore. That that was my big problem with the editorial board.

And to washing post, like who you just got higher, like what is your what what makes your point of view like more valid than anyone else? I don't even know your name. Like why? Why are you, Christine? Because you got through the H R department.

I mean, that of the day doesn't even matter, right? Like ah yeah .

doesn't matter either. But I think that speaks to an underlying arrogance that's embedded in the capital j journalism like world like there is like why does that book are we .

trying to fix something that will never be fix?

Yeah .

like you .

know .

it's like it's .

like it's on no, no, no. yes.

You know liberal newsrooms are serving liberal audience. This new york times is doing quite well. There's have the country, you know appreciates that the news output of a lot of these left eline institutions.

The problem is that liberal media has its its almost impossible to come to terms with what we've had to kind of navigate with truth just like if you're the whole premise is you know facts and experts and you know hard reporting and the the search for some type of objective truth, the truck thing just completely turns out on the set like how do you navigate that? How do you ever navigate that? And maybe the answer is you don't maybe you just serve your audience. Maybe bazo shouldn't have worried about endorsements and just say the washington post is a liberal paper. We don't need an endorsement to know that .

the newses and the endorse was not the reasons brian think ouldn't endorsement the reasoning didn't endorse is because there is like a venture guy in power and he wants to put rockets into space like so much of this election has been transactional, right?

Like so so that's why it's kind of a hard even and and the ownership structure of these media companies make IT hard to understand why they make decisions like the basis one is one is like that. But you're right. I mean, I think they're gone to keep serving their audience and people are perfectly happy with that.

I do feel that and specifically and that there's a new type of news commentary media mixed with entertainment, mixed with interviewing. This become hugely influential. IT seems to serve men in in majority and they are saying women don't listen to podcast.

That's been a big shift. That's being a big evolution. I don't know what new media companies come out of that.

I think A I is going to play a role. I think that's why we should cover like the new stuff that's gna come out. The old stuff is either going to survive and not change or disappear, right? I mean, I think there's much, much to do with that.

I I think I very interesting. I think one of the winners out of speaking to like what comes next is Polly market, right? I mean, like boy mary got there first.

While nesa was running as eighty thousand simulations, they were saying, you know, this is strong and I think would be very interesting to see. I don't know if you I was following them on on twitter x forever and they're like we're the new news. You know they're like emerging as and I think it'll be interesting to see which were kinds of news sources emerge.

There is a clear lane that like the free press talk, you know with having you know basically they have a point of view and there are going to be right into that point of view. And it's just slightly off because it's it's set a right. I saw someone someone buba action send describe is a really funny guy. He described IT as one of the concierge services.

So like the the free .

press is a concise service for democrats to become republicans. And then I think the bull ark is the consent service for republicans to become democrats. But most of the lanes, I think we're going back to pay mass media where all the business interest are to a line explicitly with an ideological point of view, if not a specific political party. Newspapers always did this before.

Well, maybe we should maybe we're over sort of correcting or ever sizing the role of media. And this one, we have a problem with ideas that are clearly not resonating when we have a problem with the organization of a group of people around ideas. And so it's not just a media problem, it's a political problem.

right? yeah.

Well, that's not to mention no other you know chAllenge threat facing me, which you talk about bryan as being news as a feature as opposed to the product in the future of you know just something that's kind of tacked onto a chat service.

What I what I would just kind of make a point around rather than a good product, is this, I had a moment this week using ChatGPT is as some of the listeners, and no, you guys know that we theyve sort of are steadily closing the last mile. And what that means is in addition to bringing on coral om developers, bringing on new suppliers or content suppliers, they're connecting the LLM to the web index, right, so that all of your queries go out and they don't just process. It's not like just like, oh, there's a search engine on wikipedia.

They are processing in real time information off the weed and and I was just like a moment I text in alex or I texted you guys where I had been query IT was know I was a product query around speaker. I know I like audio speakers and basically IT in my mind, IT had completely ripped the interface layer off the internet, where IT just brought back what I wanted, you know, IT delivered. Like, here's the speakers.

Here's the features and benefits. Here's the auction Price, here's the date listed. Here's the compare like I put at all in tables here. He was that they compared to other products in the category and IT was no IT was virtually instantaneous and IT was real time data. And IT was put into an interface that was just so efficient for me.

And I did the same thing with a flight query looking for flights, or described all the information, put IT in a table for me. And like, I could look at IT anyway, I wanted. And I just thought, oh my god, everything i've thought about for the years and years and years, which are sort of a page levels construct, is access point to information web design as boxes on pages is over.

Now it's like we have to think massively. We have to think differently about what our role is as someone who supplies information to a surface because that information being absorbed into something where it's a query and it's formatted however you want IT and it's not an una organized interface. So to me and then alex said something great, which is sort of like, you know, it's going to make the web Better or IT dies.

Like IT just has like the page has to be useful or interesting or interactive or something or there's no reason for to exist. And I think that's that's something has been bugging you, alex, and it's it's a really interesting time to think about what is the role of a company providing digital information and had to monodist IT. And to me, I was a sort of thinking about the dimensions like the rally cry you inside of a media organization, in inside of this platform shift reality.

And I was like, okay, well, direct, we have to have direct connections to people, whether we have the gravity to have an APP, or we can do text notifications or email, or someone is using an interface that we create such that is Better than the alternative. So direct, you know, obviously, that implies in the notorious or content strategy that in the face of what is inevitably the commoditization of a lot of information, you have to have a talent strategy right like this, where the creator world meets the A I world, you have to be more human. I don't think that you know that we think enough about what is unique about our data set, about what IT is if it's information, what IT is that we are gathering, processing, organizing, curating that we are introducing into the world.

What we used to do is we would scramble to write ever Green content that five other companies already rote, and we would just try to do a Better so we could smooth the search engine. You know, we can win that day. And then you think, well, you know, multimedia, at least today, chat doesn't do multiple right without audio or video or combination or interactivity like that's gonna be much more important inside of your media organization. In the last one I would say is this is going to a force, at least some companies to figure out how, I mean, this is actually going to a push you to be transactional, whether that means selling a product or taking first party data or facilitating, you know, the purchase of a service or you know, a product because the A I can't break that.

I think that's true. I think everybody should basically consider themselves like the yellow pages in nineteen ninety nine. You know, like I I think that there is going to .

be there was a big business .

and exactly and some of these I mean, when I complained about this stuff, I hear it's still a big business but looked ahead of record year and to do is still doing great.

I feel like we've spent a lot of time turning pages so that they would be machine readable with seo, so that in a day would be kind of absorb and yeah, there is a potential where you know as information the information layer is completely absorbed by the by the aliens and N A, I and A I. Kind of gazi information. Much Better.

Your daily news updated a little in whichever format s you want. That's all gonna en. We have an opportunity to create value. It's going to be a bunch of value destruction, but there's like new value that can be created.

Like and I hope it's it's an opportunity to save the web because the web is the last place that you will fully own and control. So I think joy is right. I mean that there's an opportunity .

there having like undifferentiated information is is a road to nowhere are, you know, if everyone else has the information you ve got IT like corton code first. IT doesn't really IT doesn't do a ton for you. And I think that's gonna a rethinking because I I always remember in news rooms, IT was like your competitor gets the story and said we have to match IT. I think that makes no sense.

Like unless st inaccurate, what what are we providing? And some of them was just a well, we have to like we don't want to train people to go to ad age set of ad. We can like they go to both.

What are you kid in? Like what the matter like? Sometimes you win.

Sometimes you get the three finalists. The penza il reviews sometimes at age does think people really care. But yeah, there's been too much of that. So I think you do this like free factor, the whole organizations and and what you what you're after.

I do think that like my hope for the podcast is that we talk a little bit more about this new stuff because I think there is a tendency for us to look at what do we do with all these old brands. And I think I don't think we can provide that much help with out like I don't find these conversations that interesting either, but rather talk about the tools and the opportunities that are coming up.

I don't know how brands are gonna use them, but it's it's a little bit like, you know, I could be a little bit like talking about mtv and saying, you know what what mtv should do right now is moved to reality T. V, which was the right call. I gave them another five years, you know, maybe ten.

But the truth of the matter that is like really interesting concentration technology, distribution technology, multiple ways to monetize that. People just need to find new places where where value can exist and value can be created. That's what I hope that's my optimistic message for the future should be exciting.

What did you think about the election?

That was a fucking nightmare. I mean.

what would you do if you own the washington post?

I don't know. I don't know. I guess I didn't get the phone call that basis can't, so I don't know.

You know, then get the phone call that you you Better do something or you rock at stay grounded. I don't know what, I wouldn't be in that space at all. Think I think they are all regretting these purchases.

Wow, I think there's are all ending. I am mark. Bendy office is apparently looking to unload time to anana, which was by voice. But then so I think it's the end of the billion the billionaire IT. Turns out they don't have the erna ism.

the crazy thing I grew up watching and having them spend yeah yeah. So it's it's a the big greek media company that channels that we could get in cyprus. Well, you know, I mean, the thing is going to be fun to watch is how they all turn on each other. That's going to be fun.

And that will be fun, be fun because that's coming because there's only one main character and he has a deep ten.

Yes, exactly.

And also going on with what's going on with the ten, if you go to the new york time. So i'm pay right now, the center image, he's very kind of a Brown dish orange. Is that? Is that is that a kind of cosmetic product?

What is that is a spring time? yeah.

Is this spray?

Yeah, for sure. Because that doesn't go around as years.

So the new president is a spray.

Taylor, you noticed in that? Now I would not have changed your vote. You have changed your vote if if you knew this.

Why why I was in the media covering this.

I I actually genuinely wonder, he seems to have less of the energy cogency. I wonder how active he's gonna be because he's going to be exhausted like seventy eight years old.

I want to wanted do that at seventy eight like that, but yeah.

might not make IT. I mean, this is like, takes a lot.

Bride, would you mind if I just have you wrapped this up? Just kind of based on how you started IT.

How do you start?

You started IT by talking about the media's complication, how they were sort of complicit in front of where we are. Now I understand .

your point oxx, that that does seem like, well, why we talking about this because I do think that is kind of like the Daniela of this story, right? We all know that must be he has been losing its its relevance y and its power and its centrality. And this is just making IT abundantly cleared like that.

This is this is not going to be it's not coming back necessarily. I me I don't wish ill on any of these companies. I think they're needed and I think that they're going to be forced to adapt and they will have different roles.

But it's very clear that the roles that they played in the past are gone. They're not coming back. And so my hope is that new entrance do feel that who aren't just from the grifter sphere and believe got a grifter space griffin sphere, which is is a broad .

and and derogatory .

I get IT IT is derogatory ory. But my hope is that like new you, we do have new entrance who use a lot of the, who use a lot of the tools and the platforms that are are taking place that to have credible information that that people can trust.

But but, but your point was broader.

Your point was that the media missed a kind of a sensibility, not even, as one of I say, like they missed ignition sentiment and they were not there were no longer important not just you know, in sort of sensing what's going on in the country but but influencing people .

yeah I mean, that's very obvious that you know the influence that the mainstream media has over people is maybe IT was never as great as they pretended IT today, but it's it's clear from the advertising to the coverage, none of these issues that were that were pushed nonstop, seemingly cut through. At least if you look at the data that came out so far. I mean, none of them, none of IT resonated.

Now they made the choices to push these like that trump talks all day long. You you can choose what you're going to to focus on. And it's always the harder thing as a reporter.

It's like, okay, what are you I onna focus on? Like three hours he said this one thing like as an aside off the teleprompter using you really use a teleprompter so i'm going to focus on that. I'm going i'm going to bring a lot of b material because, you know he he kind of called kala Harris like a bitch, but not really.

And so I can get seven other words out that I just don't think that, that that is not influencing people. People have seen through this, and we're seen this throughout the media, like all of these conventions are losing traction in the marketplace. I mean, one of the things that i've noticed with some before that thing is kind of interesting.

I don't think kindle IT all work is they're polishing way more Q N A S like you're actually showing the material, right? Like you make so many choices with stories. And I mean, first of all, storytelling, as the heart of journalism, needs to go away, because then most people's mind story telling me, is making stuff up, right?

You tell stories and you make choices within telling the stories that sometimes, like make a very complicated situation, seem very cutting dry and simple. And I think anyone has been, I thankfully nobody has ever written about me, but like, i'm sure of the experience of having been written about, like you've experienced, try and like I love this is kind of based on a true story, but not quite at the true story. And there's not there's going to lack of the humility about that.

I feel like IT throughout the profession, and there needs to be more of that. You could get away with that when there were fewer choices in the anode media industry because there's not just a power in violence that was that's why they nobody picks of fight with you know someone who buys ink by the goal and or whatever. That's what is that's over.

I also wonder, I mean, it's going to be interesting, but it's like how much analysis can be done about the me landscape considering how unique attack to trump s like there was nobody, even though he was seventy seven or seven eight when he came back, there was nobody to step up to him like he's he's, he's just he's just such a unique animal and and once he's gone, have they built an enduring playbook? You know, that's what I wonder yeah I don't know. And does the does that the whole manual here environment fade away the same way other facts kind of come and go?

You know yeah and and I would add just one lasting to IT. Is that what you're saying, brian, is the role of the filter and the interpreter and the curator IT was defined you know by the kind of journalism tic conventions in the news room is changing.

And you know the all in guys would say that it's been replaced by the comments and by, you know a kind of iterative process where we arrive at the truth through conversation and lots of actors and the algorithm, elon would say it's publicly source and filtered by the algorithm. And you know the tree flux to the top. And you know in that world week, we kind of all of the you know kind of journalistic conventions that were accustomed to are chAllenged. That's what you're saying about the q aid sort of like, okay, roll back the filtering role, the storytelling role. Lexus present the conversation.

right? But it's also like, I think the role moves from filtering till like connecting the dots, right? Like and I think that to me, when you get at these these podcast beyond the like auto ties of them, like what what they really get at is a conversation where people are are connecting dots between different things.

And I think that's what the power of them is. When you patched up, when you present these like neat packages with all the it's all standing down and IT comes across, particularly these days, is completely inauthentic. And I think that is part of IT.

I reinventing the packaging is is critical. I just can't imagine that the seven hundred and fifty war inverted permanent story is going to be the the the sort of atomic unit of journalism in five years doesn't seem likely. There you go, right? So we'll focus on that going forward.

We should focus on that. Look ahead. I need stuff to distract me. Well.

soon we can talk about the mid terms.

Americans are fucking hard core. Heart goes a hard core place to live on.

to be honest. What this isn't .

cyprus or australia or any of those places .

is just an interesting country. And I feel like seeing just even glimpses of the media on slaw yesterday. I'm like, my god, you gotta be either master ist or just so hard than to just put yourself in front of of that stuff, you know, for hours and hours. And I was proud that I managed to stay off. And I think there was a someone to buy Better moments.

I think amErica refuses to be a Normal country, and I will always refuse to be a Normal place. And in some ways, that to be celebrated, I think always goes. It's only way I mean.

the good thing is it's like no other country. I think that the fact away the states are organized and you know the whole political system, the way it's all how together is is pretty is pretty special. So I wanted .

celebrate that ah couldn't pull off of your bedroom like zero .

no mean we is too small. Like like you know as as I tell, like people in france don't worry about you know political decisions that I made in poland nineteen nine point nine percent of the time. You don't wake up freaking in out about what's happening in poland.

And that's the same thing as here waking up in california and looking at ha floridas vote IT like that rarely happens. Like there's nothing like that in most countries in the world and then and and other large countries like china, you know it's just completely different. So it's a coalition in itself. And IT feels that you're constantly, always worried about what's happening everywhere, which is exhAusting and we're gonna have a lot of adverse for, you know, anxiety medication pop in .

up every I also just a final thought on that is I almost think like going forward over the next four years, I almost think like news is going to come with like a surgeon general warning, like about of being bad for your mental al like I don't think that broadly speaking, that the population can return to twenty, seventeen, three, twenty O K. I just just and maybe is just built up community, but I I don't know if if people can return to that. And so I think neither .

of voice is gonna .

worse to .

be sensible decision. Zoo algorithms, where each week we uncover pattern shaping, media culture and technology. Big thanks is always to our producer.

Vania arson SHE always makes us a little clear and more understandable, and we appreciate her very, very much. If you are enjoying these conversations, we'd love for you to leave us a review. IT helps us get the word out and keeps our community growing. Remember, you can find people versus algorithms on apple podcast, on spotify and now on youtube. Thanks for listening, and we will see you again next week.

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