Ep508 - Dr. Tony Nader | Consciousness Is All There Is
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Welcome to the Talks at Google podcast, where great minds meet. I'm Matthew, bringing you this week's episode with author, neuroscientist, and researcher, Dr. Tony Nader. Talks at Google brings the world's most influential thinkers, creators, makers, and doers all to one place. Every episode is taken from a video that can be seen at youtube.com slash talks at google.

Dr. Tony Nader visits Google to discuss his book, "Consciousness is All There Is: How Understanding and Experiencing Consciousness Will Transform Your Life." Dr. Nader offers a direct path to peace for ourselves and our world that anyone can obtain, simply by delving into our own consciousness.

He provides the methods, tools, and guidance for connecting with our authentic inner nature and understanding how consciousness is the essence of all existence, including addressing such fundamental questions as: What is the key to a well-lived, flourishing life in which we can all coexist in peace? Can freedom be compatible with law and order?

how can we meet our challenges as individuals and a society, including the environment, genetic engineering, and the rapid development of artificial intelligence. True wellness is a state of profound clarity, peace, and contentment, resulting from connection with our pure consciousness. By enlivening our coherence between our consciousness and the external world, we can find our happiest and highest states of ourselves. Moderated by Gopi Kalyai.

Here is Dr. Tony Nader. Consciousness is all there is. Hello and welcome to Talks at Google. My name is Gopi and I work with the Global Business Organization at Google. And I'm proud and honored to welcome to today's Talks at Google, Dr. Tony Nader, the author of the very new book, Consciousness is All There Is.

Dr. Nader is the global head of the International Transcendental Meditation Organization. He's also a very accomplished and highly educated medical doctor. He received his first degree from the Harvard University in neurology and also got a PhD in brain and cognitive sciences at Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

So it combines a deep scientific study on the brain and how it works from a medical perspective and also has studied consciousness from more traditional lineages like transcendental meditation and combines them together. Dr. Nader, welcome to the show. Thank you to Google. Thank you to Talks at Google. Thank you, Gopi. It's a great joy to be with you.

Well, let's jump right into it. And you've taken on a very formidable topic. The title of your book is Consciousness Is All There Is. Instantly, it got my attention. But what a big word to choose a book title, Consciousness. Everybody thinks they have some understanding of it, but not everyone is on the same page. Let's start with that. How do you even define consciousness?

This is an important place to start in this topic because there are different ways of looking at consciousness. And consciousness in the simplest way of how we understand it as humans is how we are conscious, how we are having subjective personal experiences that are different from the mechanical, chemical, electrical experiences

dynamics that happen in our physiology, in our brain, that have their own physical aspect, material aspect. And consciousness, which is a very subjective, personal, non-physical, non-material aspect, which means the ability to be conscious of one's feelings, one's experiences, love, joy, happiness,

And to have this very subjective personal quality of consciousness, what they call qualia. Qualia is a term that comes from quality, some very personal quality of experience that is different from physical, material, mechanical, or electromechanical, electrochemical changes that might happen in the nervous system.

Now, we as humans, we know we are conscious because that's what we experience on a subjective level. And we imagine that to be conscious means to be conscious like a human being. And this is where the definition really is not as clear among philosophers and scientists.

I like to take consciousness to expand it to being anything that senses, that experiences, that reacts, that interacts with anything is a process of consciousness, is a process in which consciousness is manifesting. And therefore, consciousness is on a range of possibilities of being conscious.

We know this as humans that we can be very alert and clear in our consciousness.

We can experience something through our senses. We can experience feelings, imaginations, memories. We can also go through specific values where we are less conscious. We are drowsy. We are not alert. We're not very awake. Or we are dreaming, which is also a state of consciousness, but in which reality is not the same as when we are waking.

And then where we are asleep, it's also a state of consciousness because our body is still being able to be awakened. If you have a loud noise or if you pinch somebody or do something to them, they'll wake up. So there is a minimal level of consciousness that is still there in sleep.

And if you go deeper than that, you have vegetative states, you have coma, you have anesthesia, which are also different styles and ways of consciousness. So I take consciousness to be on a broad range.

Expand it to the animal life, to the mechanical life, to the trees, even to the mineral life. And that's how I define that consciousness is on a broad spectrum that encompasses actually all that reacts and interacts and experiences.

I'm still missing something here, so I'm going to push you a little bit on it. I had knee surgery recently where I went through anesthesia, and clearly I was unconscious during the phase. And then I was slowly woken up by the anesthesiologist, and at which point I became conscious and a little less alert maybe. But at a point in time, like right now, I'm fully alert, and I'm aware of

the surroundings, I'm aware of physical things like I have this can of water and when I sip it, I feel the texture and the taste of the water and the feeling. So by your definition, I have some degree of consciousness. But even beyond that, as I'm talking to you, you're talking of a very complex subject and I'm processing it and I'm interpreting it. And so I have a higher order of awareness and consciousness. And yet in reading the book, I felt that

you are referring to an even higher order of awareness or sentience that you're referring to as consciousness. So is there an even finer distinction? And if that is the case, can you explain that? Maybe even give me an example in simple language that most people will comprehend? Yeah, and even in what you just expressed, you used the term alertness, you used the same awareness, I am aware, I am alert, alertness.

you might have used, you could have used the term attention. And so all of these are different qualities within consciousness, within what I am defining as a broad perspective of what consciousness is. See, you are somebody who's now interviewing me, but you have a profession, you have a quality, you can drive a car.

You can do many things in your life. You have maybe a family, friends, children, maybe, of course, parents and all of that. When you are interviewing me, you are an interviewer and your awareness is on interviewing. When you are in surgery, your awareness is diminished and we can say your quality of consciousness is also diminished, but your awareness is almost gone completely, your outer awareness.

It doesn't mean you don't exist as somebody who will respond because when they put you in surgery, if they do something too strong to the body or if the anesthesia gets a little lighter, your body will react even though you're not aware of it.

your heart rate will increase, your blood pressure might increase, there is a response from the effects. All of these are still part of what I am calling, and again, I'm defining consciousness slightly different than what normally people equate with awareness.

So when you drive a car, you are a car driver. Your awareness is on the road. You forget that you are a son of somebody, the parent of somebody, the business that you do, the work that you do. They might come as memories in your mind, but now you are aware of the road. You are aware of certain things. But the other aspects are also there and they constitute part of your consciousness.

People like to call those parts maybe subconscious because they are in a reality that you are not directly aware of in the waking state, but you are having your awareness on something and you could access other things which are what we call subconscious. Now, there are things that are within you that influence you,

that you can't even possibly access. Things like memories or experiences one has had and childhood,

traumas or beautiful things, a number of things that influence how we see the world, that put a quality on our perception. It's like we have glasses and we're putting colors, different colors of perception, and we start seeing through those glasses the whole world. So we see the world as we are, and what influences our perspective is

are a number of things that can be conscious. I think of you, I'm talking to you, I'm analyzing what you're saying, you're analyzing. So they are conscious on an aware level. They are awareness level. They can be subconscious. I don't think about them right now, but I could access them. And there are unconscious, which means I cannot even access them. So the things that happened during my childhood,

that I have completely forgotten and that I have even no access to them. I can't even turn my attention. This is how now attention comes into play, that I direct my attention to something. And when I direct my attention to something, then it comes to my awareness. So the subconscious level is a number of things that I can access through my attention,

The unconscious things are things that I cannot even access through my attention. In my definition, all of these are part of the strata of consciousness, the layers of consciousness and the spectrum that consciousness is. Okay, Dr. Neda, then I want to push the spectrum all the way to, I would say, far right in the sense of consciousness.

I grew up in traditional Indian lineages and philosophical systems where they have a concept which they call in Sanskrit Samadhi, which I interpreted as a superconscious state, which goes beyond even consciousness to a higher level of metaconsciousness.

When in my limited understanding is when you feel a certain oneness with all of the universe, all of creation. And is that also part of your definition? Since you mentioned it's a spectrum, you can take it all the way to this super state of consciousness, which is possible, but not everyone experiences it unless they put in a lot of work.

Yeah, it's beautiful that you say that. I describe all these states of consciousness clearly in the book, Consciousness is All There Is. And I do take the spectrum above, but we are just now, we were just now laying the foundation of what we are familiar with as regular day-to-day normal standard quality of consciousness. Now, when we say that we can access a higher consciousness,

That means I can access the field that is the essence and origin of all there is. This is what the theory in the book presents. In order to get to understand that reality, we have to see how consciousness emerges and what is the origin of the universe even. So it takes us to a consideration that is very profound in terms of

existence, origin, you know, life and living and the Big Bang and how it happened and evolution. And where do we go from there? So to summarize it, you have two different theories about consciousness. One theory is what we call the physicalist theory.

The physicalist theory says that the universe emerged from some energy. Then as we go the big bang and then cooling down elementary particles, atoms, molecules,

combining together, complexifying and ultimately in evolution, creating a human nervous system with that nervous system able to have consciousness. And therefore, consciousness here is an emergent quality, which means consciousness emerges somehow, we don't know how, from the physical reality of the activity of complex and orderly functioning of our nervous system.

That is one perspective, philosophically and scientifically. What I am presenting is a different one, and that actually comes from the ancient Vedantic Advaita Vedanta, from the ancient Indian knowledge of yoga and the tradition. Yeah, the one I was referring to, yeah. Right, which actually says that consciousness is primary, which means there is a field which is consciousness.

And from that field emerges actually the physical and material and what we see as the reality. Now, a field is like an electromagnetic field or, you know, gravitational field. But it's more than that. It's what science, if you like to compare it to what physicists say, is what we call the unified field of all the laws of nature.

To quickly summarize what it is, physicists say that if you go deeper than the molecule, you find the atom. Go deeper and smaller than the atom, you find elementary particles. And you keep diving deep, you find that it is all fields, which is a quantum field theory, that everything is actually a field. And then in the electromagnetic field, for example, let's say like an ocean,

and that ocean has waves, and those fluctuations of the field, those waves of the ocean, then collapse into specific entities that we call particles, and then particles join together to create atoms, molecules, etc. So the unified field is one field that physics postulates as the ultimate entity

essence from which everything comes. So there is a unified field. What we are saying, what Veda says, what Advaita Vedanta says, is that this field is actually a field of consciousness. So consciousness is primary.

And then every aspect emerges. Now, in terms of experience, and we can go back to how, if you like, to discuss that part, which is described in the book, how consciousness becomes or appears as material and physical and small and big entities in the physical manifest universe. That's a different story. But

The reality is perceived from this very advanced consciousness program, such as transcendental meditation, for example, is that this field vibrates within itself. It's like the unified field and then creates individual entities on the surface through evolution and development, of course, of consciousness coming out.

What it says is that at the basis of everything is that unified field of consciousness, of pure being, pure existence. And this is who we truly are. Now, we know only parts of that reality in our daily activities. So we experience ourselves as a limited person, limited in one's physical body, in one's even mind, in one's abilities.

What these ancient techniques do, transcendental meditation in particular, is allow us to dive deep within that ocean from the surface where we are, where our thoughts are bubbling like bubbles on the surface of the ocean. We can dive deep and go through the different layers of consciousness, which means go through the subconscious, even unconscious, and go deeper into

to the field itself, the ocean of consciousness, and experience oneself as a transcendental being where you have no thoughts, no memories, nothing, but just pure being, pure existence. And this is called transcendental consciousness or pure consciousness. And when you experience that field that is unbounded and infinite,

you are actually experiencing the source of everything and everyone. You are transcending, which means going beyond. That's what the term transcend means. Going beyond limitation into your infinite inner self and experiencing that you are that oneness. And that is why there is that beautiful samadhi, which means...

Samadhi means the evenness of the intellect, the evenness of the mind. From the active mind, you go to a place where it's completely even. Sama means evenness, and hi is the mind, the intellect. And that is where you experience what is called liberation also from specificity, and you experience this higher state of consciousness. We spoke about sleep, dream, and waking earlier.

And we call this actually the fourth state of consciousness, Turiya Chaitanya in Sanskrit, if you like. It's the state of pure being. So you transcend and find yourself unbounded, unlimited, infinite within yourself. And what this is interesting is it creates tremendous positive effects on you.

on mental clarity, reduction in anxiety, reduction in depression, elimination of problems such as insomnia, greater creativity, better health, et cetera. - I want to interrupt you for a minute here. So all of this sounds incredibly appealing and I want it, but we also live in an age of where science

Evidence-based methods are being talked about and more people will embrace it. And you are a scientist, you are a doctor. So I'll ask you this question. Can any of this be demonstrated and proven or is it theoretical? I know in some aspects of neuroscience, for example, Dr. Richard Davidson's team at University of Wisconsin has been studying the effects of meditation and loving kindness on the brain and are able to prove certain changes, physiological changes,

that are taking place. So if this transcendental consciousness state can lead to more clarity, more peace, less anxiety, is that something that can be demonstrated and proven? Have you measured this in the lab? Or is it just theory?

We have more than 600 scientific research studies on this topic. 420 of them have been published in very top-level, high-quality, peer-reviewed journals. And they show the entire mechanism by which actually transcending happens.

in terms of its effects on the physiology, on behavior, on the mind, on creativity, on health, on rejuvenation. So, for example, we have seen that when people reach that state on a subjective level, which is something that you can describe when you experience it,

there is a great coherence in brain functioning. So your front of the brain works well with the back of the brain, the right works with the left, and all of them work together really in a very coordinated, coherent way. And that is a state that actually

gives what we call restful alertness. And these waves in the brain happen in the alpha range, which is known to enhance this quality of experience of restful alertness, wakefulness, but completely rested and settled. The body, the heart rate reduces, skin resistance increases, indicating less stress, breathing softens, cortisol levels decrease, blood pressure normalizes.

And all of these happen physiologically at the same time that the brain gets into this integrated state of functioning. We have seen that this leads to greater ability to fight disease, better immune system, reduction and stress related and other phenomena, psychophysiological phenomena. So this has been documented over and over again. And we have now a large number of studies done in the best

actually the best hospitals, some of the best hospitals in the United States, Brigham and Women, Duke University, et cetera, and to 90 hospitals where we have applied it

to doctors themselves and nurses who have experienced burnout after the COVID and now even during the stress in the hospitals. They have insomnia, they have depressions and anxieties and even suicide. And all of these hospitals are publishing right now

profound results and finding to show that this experience is not only subjective, but it influences and it transforms the physiology, the mind, the body, and the health also. So mind, body, and physiology and behavior improve with this change of experience. Since this is talks at Google, I couldn't resist asking this question. Two weeks ago,

Two of our colleagues won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for the work they're doing in AI research related to biochemistry. Another former colleague, Dr. Jeff Hinton, won the Nobel Prize in Physics. So AI is at the center of everything that Google is working on now. So my question is, do these artificial intelligence systems also have

a certain level of consciousness. Sometimes when you have conversations with conversational AI tools like Gemini, they seem to exhibit human-like qualities and even sometimes you feel like they have emotions in the response. So can consciousness be programmed into these artificial intelligence systems?

They are conscious. They have maybe some qualities of consciousness that resemble human consciousness, but they are not human-like qualities of consciousness. What are they missing that we have?

Well, they're missing, and this I cannot, you know, for sure say, but they seem to miss like self-awareness in a sense. For example, we would like to see them explain how they solve certain problems that we do not know how they solved.

And this is part of the dilemma in artificial intelligence, that the artificial intelligence is able to learn and teach itself techniques. And I heard that there might be even communication between different artificial intelligence entities that we are not able to see how and what is the actual processes. So when they start becoming able to explain to us actually how they work,

in solving certain problems, then there will be a sense of higher value in terms of self-awareness. And so there are many things that are to be seen in terms of the quality and the level of consciousness. But in terms of them being conscious, according to the paradigm, as I explain clearly in the book,

Everything is consciousness. Everything that interacts, that detects, that senses is an experience of consciousness. And I'm saying this based on many factors and converging arguments and converging findings from science, from logic,

from empirical science and also from explanatory power, which means how can you explain phenomena in life about freedom and determinism, about suffering, about the meaning of life. These are the important values that we actually live in our life

and that make our life either beautiful or miserable, whatever, or anywhere in between. And these have to be answered also. And this is why I present this paradigm

that says that consciousness is actually primary. Not only it's primary, it is really everything and it's the dynamics of consciousness within itself that create all the layers of manifestations on the surface. So therefore, a very complex orderly functioning even of a mechanical system must have consciousness and some level of consciousness

Is it human-like consciousness? I cannot guarantee that. Okay, that makes sense. So what I'm taking away is, yes, by the broad definition of everything is consciousness, even an artificial intelligence system represents some level of consciousness, but not the level of superior or super consciousness that human beings have. I know we're going to run out of time very shortly, so I have two quick questions for you. The first is, in your book you say,

understanding and experiencing consciousness will transform your life and will solve so many of the problems. If that is the case, would you recommend that the 8 billion people on the planet drop everything else that they're doing and simply focus on getting connected to their consciousness, elevating their consciousness? Is there any point at all in doing all the other things that we do? Why build cities and cars and go through our lives? We just sit and try everything.

the singular pursuit of connecting to our consciousness? The purpose of life is to grow in all directions, all dimensions. To have higher consciousness is to be able to improve life on the surface level also. So you don't have to drop everything at all. Actually, the practice of Transcendental Meditation is very simple, very easy. You do it only 20 minutes morning and evening, sitting comfortably in a chair,

You don't have to adopt any philosophy or belief system and it improves your life. So life, the purpose of life is to enjoy the differences and the bubble into activity. And the more you are settled within yourself,

The more you are creative, the more you can produce things. So it's not a question of reclosing oneself and hiding from activity. Actually, activity brings greater joy to the consciousness itself when it is settled. And therefore, it's like sitting in a warm bath.

And then you want to move so that you feel the warmth of the water around you. And so activity is part of the process of enjoying life. If you're in a flow state, I guess. Exactly. And I go through this in the book that...

Establish in consciousness, perform action. This is what actually the supreme yoga that is taught in this tradition, which is in Sanskrit is said, "Yoga sta kuru karmani." Established in being, established in that evenness of the self, knowing you are that unbounded feeling, unbounded being, you can then act with greater clarity, greater fulfillment in every aspect of your activity.

And the final question then there is, I know in the book you talk of several techniques and methods, but for someone who's yet to read the entire, I guess, how many? It's more than 400 pages of it. Where do they get started? What should they do to expand their consciousness and get to this higher level of consciousness, which in the book you say will lead to a better quality of life?

- Yes, it will lead ultimately to the sense of unity with everything and everyone. And peaceful, harmonious society, that is the ultimate in a spontaneous way. - So next steps, yeah, what should someone do? How do they get started?

I invite you, of course, to read the book, but it's not a theoretical only. If you want to know why it helps and how it helps, what is life and what is living and all these details we talked about and more, you can read the book. But if you want to practice and get the benefits right away,

You can start transcendental meditation. We have TM.org is one site that you can go to. We have Maharishi International University in Iowa, which is accredited to the PhD level. We have the David Lynch Foundation that is now promoting it. We have started a program called Meditate America.

to remove the divisions and the problems and the stress that happen with times of election and times of war and even in daily life. And for mental health of all the

the young generation now coming up with having so many complicated situations that they have to face and to reestablish themselves on the better level and platform of their inner being, in a sense, reboot your computer, reboot your system, rehabilitate yourself with such a simple, easy technique

that is practiced morning and evening and can then continue to enjoy the fullness of life and be productive even more than usual.

Fantastic. Thank you, Dr. Nader. And for those of you who are listening to us, once again, I highly recommend this very thought-provoking and very useful book with practical tips and scientific evidence on how to elevate your consciousness. Consciousness is all there is by our host, our guest, Dr. Tony Nader. Dr. Nader, it's been a pleasure having you on Talks at Google.

Thank you, Gopi. The pleasure is mine. Thank you, Google, for all that you do and for even these talks that are very indicative and informative and fulfilling and inspiring. Thank you, Dr. Nader. Thank you and bye to our audience. Thanks for listening. To discover more amazing content, you can always find us online at youtube.com slash talks at Google. Talk soon.