Life in Five Senses | Gretchen Rubin
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Welcome to the Toxic Google Podcast, where great minds meet. I'm Natalie, bringing you this episode with author Gretchen Rubin. Toxic Google brings the world's most influential thinkers, creators, makers, and doers all to one place. You can watch every episode at youtube.com forward slash toxic google.

Gretchen is one of today's most influential observers of happiness and human nature. She joins Google to discuss her book, Life in Five Senses, how exploring the senses got me out of my head and into the world. The book is a story of discovery, filled with thoughtful insights and hands-on suggestions about how to heighten our senses and use the power of perception to live fuller and richer lives.

Gretchen's many books have sold more than three and a half million copies worldwide. She hosts the podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin, where she explores practical solutions for living a happier life. She's also the founder of the Happier app, which helps people track their happiness boosting habits. Originally published in May 2023, here is Gretchen Rubin, Life in Five Senses.

Welcome Gretchen Rubin. Hello. Hello, Jenny. And hello, everybody. I'm so happy to get the chance to talk to you today. Us too. It's launch day. Before we get into the book, it's launch day. How are you feeling? Oh, I'm so excited. I love, I mean, I've been working on it for so long. So, you know, the feeling of when something is actually out and

And I love talking about the five senses. And now I have just so many opportunities to talk to listeners and readers about a subject that fascinates me. So I'm really looking forward to it. That's so great. So let's talk about it. Let's get right in. There's a part at the very beginning of the book where you talk about walking down the block from your apartment in Manhattan to

to mail a letter in the mailbox at the end of the block, and then you get back home to your apartment and you can't even remember if you mailed the letter because life is crazy busy. We read that like a badge of honor, right? So a lot of us live in our heads. You and I know each other. I know that we can both do that too sometimes. So how do we use our five senses to get out of our heads at work and in life?

So I think I'm like many people where, you know, of course, I wanted to appreciate the moment and I wanted to I didn't want to take the daily life for granted. But often, at least I find that these sort of transcendent abstract aims are hard to put into practice. It's not that I don't.

by believe it or believe that it's important, but it's hard to put it into action. So in my work, I'm always looking for sort of concrete ways to take an abstract idea and put it into daily life. And what I found is that thinking about

an approach based on the five senses really makes these high ideals much more concrete because as much as I might say, I want to appreciate the moment or feel grateful for my everyday life or spark my creativity. It's like, okay, yeah, but then what do you do? And so, because if you are stuck in your head, you know, and I think we all know the feeling of like, you're on a beautiful beach

but you don't see the waves. You don't feel the sand under your feet. You're not smelling the ocean because you're just, you have your to-do list going through your mind or you're rewriting that email for the third time. And that just blocks out the world around you. By tapping into the five senses, we can make that direct contact more vivid.

Yeah. I literally was on a beach in Mexico a couple of weeks ago. I texted you and I was just getting ready to submit my book for my book proposal. It was going out on submission and I was so in my head the whole time. I could not even enjoy the vacation. And I texted you and I said, I did a walk to observe all the colors, like you're collecting Scarlet, uh, objects, which maybe you can talk a little bit about, uh,

And it really did center me. And then I went snorkeling and I just like really deeply listened to the sound of the waves laughing at my ears. And these tactical concrete taps into your five senses

are a very practical way to, to be in the moment versus the, you know, pie in the sky. Yes. I, you know, uh, theoretical, just be in the moment kind of. Right. Right. Right. Which I just can't do. Right. So what are some specifics? What did you learn throughout this process that, that did affect your energy level or, or help with anxiety, uh, to like,

to act like, what are some of the things you did with, with hearing or sight or, or, or touching? What are some of the things that worked for you? Well, what the, one of the things that's really extraordinary about tapping into the five senses is it, it works for so many aims and it often works for aims that seem like they're pointing in the opposite direction. So we can use our five senses to like pump up and we can also use it, our five senses to calm down depending on

you want. So if you're trying to pump up, I mean, of course, one of the most popular ways that people tap into their senses for a sense of energy is through music. I mean, research shows what we all know, music has a huge influence on our, our emotional, mental and physical health. And, you know, listening to one of your favorite upbeat songs is something that can help minimize pain. It can make exertion feel less strenuous, which is the why it, which is why, you know, gyms play music. Um,

So that's one way. And then just by tapping into your five senses, a lot of times when we're feeling sluggish or low energy, by giving ourselves some stimulation, that will help us like sort of kick up, kick up. So just even smelling like a, like a jar of pickles can help. But,

But I think for most people, what they're even looking for more, at least from the people that I'm talking to, they want to use their five senses to calm down. So how would you do that? One of the things that I found was really interesting is how often, like we're very familiar with things like podcasting.

pop toys, fidget spinners, weighted blankets, which are used to help people calm down. But what I found is that even in everyday life, even if you don't have something like that around, you can use a prop, something that you hold onto just helps you feel grounded. And when you know that you can, I think a lot of us do it unconsciously. Like I found out that I had been doing this for a long time without understanding the reasons for my own behavior, because what I do is I hold the prop of a pen.

Like if I'm anxious, like I was walking into a party where I didn't know anybody or like I'm giving a big presentation for the first time and I'm standing backstage. If I hold a pen and that just makes, it just makes me feel good. It just, it feels right. I'm like, there's no paper here. If I could use my phone, if I needed to take a note, why do I have a pen? And yet I just feel better if I'm holding a pen. And I've talked to people who use mugs or clipboards or stones, you know, anything that appeals to you, uh,

a water bottle. It somehow having something to touch and to hold can help you feel grounded. Another thing that's interesting to think about as you're trying to calm down is

is do you want less stimulation or more stimulation? And this may be different depending on the circumstance, but you want to be aware of like how to use this as a tool. So for me, I'm a person who always wants to bring it down. So if I'm stressed out, like I'm,

if I'm, if I walk into the kitchen and somebody in my family is playing music, I will turn it off without thinking because I just, I can't, I just can't take the stimulation or like I wear perfume to bed every night because I just love perfume. And like these days, like you don't really, I wouldn't wear perfume to a meeting because some people don't like that bed because I love it. So I wear it to bed for me. Um, but I find that if I'm really stressed out, I stop even without understanding what I was doing.

I had noticed that I would stop wearing perfume. It's too much stimulation. It's like I need to bring it down. When I read, I will reread something that I've already read because it's just the familiarity. It's just that much less stimulation.

On the other hand, to my surprise, I found that some people are just the opposite. They like intense stimulation. So for people like this, they will plunge their hands into icy water or put an ice cube in their mouth. Or they might bite into a lemon because there's something about the shock of intense... Eating something very, very spicy. Listening to really loud, room-shaking music. This, for some people...

It doesn't sound like it would work for me, but for them, they find it grounding and calming. And so like for so many things related to the five senses, you really have to think about yourself. There's no one right way, one best way, one most efficient way. It's really about understanding your own sensory universe, your own sensory preferences, and figuring out the degree to which within your control, you can set things up to suit you. Yeah, it's all about suiting you and being respectful and aware that,

not everybody has the same level of stimulation acceptance or excitement. My husband has an unbelievably high sensitivity to sound. So I brought my son to this indoor water park hotel this past weekend and there was this wave pool and it was like five minutes of waves and then five minutes without. And every time the waves are about to start, it was like, whoop, whoop.

whoop, whoop, whoop, like throughout this like indoor water park. And it was so much fun, but I was like, my husband, he'd, he'd, he'd freak out if you were here because he's sensitive. So I love that you're offering that. It's very personal. It's very unique to who you are. And then based on what pumps you up or calms you down and what you need in the moment, um,

you might tap into your five senses in a very distinct way from a colleague or a spouse or a friend. - Well, yes, absolutely. And I think this is a really important thing to be aware of in the workplace because since people do respond so differently, if someone has an issue with something and you're like, I don't know what they're making a fuss about because it's really no big deal,

It could be for them because we live in such different sensory environments. I mean, just to speak about sound. So the producer of my podcast is a huge sound person. And he was telling me he lives in Los Angeles and they changed the flight paths to LAX. And so now flights fly over his house. And he is beyond...

enraged by this and he's leading this neighborhood effort to change the flight path back. But he said when he went around to talk to his neighbors, some of his neighbors hadn't even noticed.

So this is a person where for one person, it's like changing their whole neighborhood for the worse. And other people are like, I don't even know what you're talking about. And so the fact that I don't pick up on something doesn't mean that it's not an issue that needs to be addressed or thought through. Just because we just live in these different sensory universes.

really to a much greater degree than I had realized before. I intellectually knew that, but I didn't really quite realize how that could play out in person. And not only are they different for different people, but they evolve over time, correct? So you used to not think of yourself as a music person, and now that shifted throughout the book to be more song specific. Tell us about that journey.

Well, this was very interesting. And I think this has to do with self-definition and how we always want to sort of be aware of how we might change our definition or reinterpret it, reimagine it. So I always thought of myself as somebody who didn't listen to music much because I never went to concerts. I never listened to much music. I'm not interested in trying new music. I'm not exploring artists. I don't know the whole catalog of anybody who

which is what other people do. They love to talk about it. And I never did. But then again, to Chuck, my sound guy, he was and I said, oh, I wish I liked music. You know, I'm just somebody who doesn't appreciate music. And he said, oh, I think you do appreciate music just in your own way. And I realized I do have like very intense responses to particular songs and I'll listen to them and appreciate them and love them. But

I don't then want to like go listen to everything by that artist or explore more music in that genre or go see a live performance of it. I just like that one song. And that has made me realize like I can always be on the lookout for the songs that I love and kind of add them to my playlist. There's no right way or wrong way of loving music. My way is my way. And the fact that it seems like other people have a different way of loving music is fine. It's just not my way.

Yeah. And to me, I love that example because it highlights the really important part of reimagining who you are, reimagining your personal brand, shedding gold labels that no longer serve you. So in the Own Your Career program that's sponsoring this talk today,

I talk a lot about personal branding and how your personal brand three years out of college might not be the personal brand you have now 13 years out of college. So for example, I used to think of myself as a mediocre presenter in client meetings, but then I worked really hard at it. I went to a new role. I invested in it. I got training. I got coaching. And then I thought it became pretty decent, but it took me a long time to take on that new label or adopt that new label of, yeah, I'm actually pretty

good presenting in client meetings versus that old label when someone gave me feedback in a performance review three years out of college. You really need to work on your presentation skills, Jenny. It's really easy to carry those labels with you. Not a good presenter or I'm not good at music. Right. I'm not a music buff. My playlist is embarrassing. Right. It's not cool. So it's nice to evolve those labels over time, which can apply to so many areas of our life and the labels we give ourselves and how they serve us or don't.

Well, absolutely. And it's so true that like self-knowledge, self-awareness is so hard. You think like, what's more obvious? Like I just hang out with myself all day long. Of course I know myself. Of course I know my strengths and weaknesses. Of course I know my preferences, but actually self-knowledge is so challenging. I like spend a huge amount of time just trying to find direct or indirect ways to like understand myself better. And you're exactly right. One of the challenges is that these things change over time.

And people, I mean, just to take even a more obvious example, I knew this person who was doing yoga like

three, five times a week for like years. And I said something like, oh, I said, I referred to her as like a yoga person. And she's like, well, I'm not a real yoga person. I'm like, if you're not a real yoga person, like, I don't know what that looks like. Cause what would it mean to be a real yoga person? She just had not embraced that identity. So her self image had not caught up with her actions. And so I do think that, and I hadn't noticed my own preferences. It's like, how had I not noticed it?

I just didn't because I was like up in my head and not paying attention. So I think you're exactly right. Paying attention to the five senses is another way of trying to have the self-reflection that we need to have at all times so we can keep pace with our own growth.

Yeah, yeah. And I can think of a million examples of where I have, you know, taken on labels that I shouldn't or not taken on new labels that I should. It's hard. It's hard to evolve and to reimagine yourself. It is. So we're on this. We're talking a little bit about development at work, work.

What is one way we can tap into our hearing sense to be better listeners? There have been meetings where I've walked out and been like, oh, I totally dominated that conversation. This is a hard one for me. I've worked on it. But what are some practical and tactical examples to tap into our hearing sense when we're collaborating with colleagues or when we're in a group meeting or a one-on-one?

Well, you had such a great suggestion in your newsletter. I'm going to give you credit because I hadn't thought of this one, but it's excellent, which is if you're on Zoom, put yourself on mute. Yeah. If you know you're going to talk too much, put yourself on mute because that little bit of delay will give you that second to think, do I need to pipe in here? Maybe I could let that go. I find that often when I kind of impulsively interrupt, it's like it's always a mistake. And adding that little bit of delay can give you...

like with anything, I mean, in my book about habits better than before, I talk a lot about how you can use inconvenience as a way to shape your behavior because if something is even slightly more inconvenient, there's hilarious research about like, if people have to use tongs instead of spoons at a salad bar, how they take so much less food because they just can't do this. It's that much more difficult. So I thought that was a great one. Um,

I mean, one thing also back to this idea of self-knowledge, it's I think to kind of know what your, what your behaviors are that you want to be conscious of so you can shape them. For instance, when I, so I wrote a whole listening manifesto for, for life in five senses, because I wanted to get better at listening, which seems passive. Listening seems like a passive activity. It's actually very, very active. And I realized, I realized that one of the things that I tend to do is,

is first of all, I will rush in to fill a silence, especially if it feels fraught. And what I often do is suggest a book for people to read. If people have a problem, I'm instantly handing them a reading list. You're getting a divorce. Here's what you should read. You're having an issue with your child. Here's what you should read. You know, this reminds me of this novel. You have to read it. And I realized like for me, this came from a deep place of love and it was me wanting to offer something like concrete,

which is good, but I was using it as a way to kind of make the conversation less fraught, put it on ground that was more comfortable to me. And these people were not asking me for reading suggestions. Like they weren't saying to me like, hey, Gretchen, can you suggest some resources? No, they wanted to talk it through. And so I have learned, write a follow-up email. You know what I mean? If I'm just bursting, I'm like, oh my gosh, this will be so useful to you. That's okay, they can take it or leave it.

But in the moment, it's more about staying present, listening, using the behaviors of listening, which is like turning your whole body to face somebody, putting down anything that would indicate that you have any other priority, like if you're holding a book or paper, whatever.

Fascinating research that you need to put your phone out of sight and out of reach. If it's inside, if it's within reach, people find it distracting. You'll find it distracting. They'll find it distracting. So you want to have a completely out of sight so people know I'm right here with you right now. Nothing's going to nothing's going to take away my focus.

Yeah. Someone once gave me the advice. If you're multitasking while you're in a one-on-one with someone, you're sending the explicit message. You're not worth a hundred percent of my time. No, no, absolutely. It's so important. And I think you're much better off saying something like, and I've said that like, like with your kids or whatever, the same thing, but I've said to people like in a meeting, um,

hang on, I'm distracted because I need to answer this email. Let me just take a second and deal with this. And so it's like people understand it. They would much rather pause, let you deal with it and come back rather than you trying to do it. And especially if you're trying to do it surreptitiously. No, that doesn't work. We all know. Like, what are you, you know, you're not fooling anybody. Yeah. No, go ahead. Go ahead. No, it's just much better to be just to say,

I need to deal with this because it's distracting me. Let me do it. And then I'll, so in order that I can give you my attention. Right, exactly. And going back to the piece about making the book recommendation right away, sometimes we solve the wrong problem, right? Sometimes we, there's a surface level problem, but there's a deeper level problem. And sometimes,

I love asking what and how questions, like what about this is difficult or how are you looking for support here? What and how questions are such a great way to tease out the actual problem beneath the problem. But if we're just looking at the surface level problem and not using our hearing sense to deeply listen and listen to understand, not just simply listen to respond,

then we can better understand what they really need, which might be very different. Maybe it's a different book. Maybe you do ultimately email them and recommend a book, but maybe it's a different one than you initially would have offered because you're now understanding the root of the problem.

Well, to your point, the hardest thing to hear is what's not being said. Yeah. And that is when you're getting into those deeper level questions where you're trying to understand what is this person? What have we not talked about? Where have we not gotten yet? Like what is what's beneath the surface? And that takes time. That takes listening. I mean, one of the best things to do, I find, is to just recharacterize whatever you think they're saying, because a lot of times it turns out you've gotten it wrong.

which is fine. It turns out people don't, they don't mind if you're wrong, if they know that you're trying to understand it. Cause I'm like, wow, that sounds really frustrating. It was like, it wasn't frustrating. It was upsetting. I was like almost, you know, and you're like, oh, I get it. Okay. So I wasn't understanding the situation, you know, because a lot of times if you don't know all the players, like you're like, okay, you're telling me a story, but like,

What's the context? And so you need, but by asking questions and trying to rephrase it, paraphrase it, then you get more clarity and people have that sense of like, oh, they're really listening. They're really trying to hear me, which is deeply satisfying. One thing that's interesting also is like people will talk themselves into solutions. Like a lot of times if you just let people explain, explain, explain. One of my favorite things, because people sometimes email me for advice and I never give advice.

But very often, all I answer is, it sounds like you already know what to do. Because they will email me and I'm like, you know what to do. You're just like, you just want me to be like, oh, that's right. I'm like, I'm not going to tell you. But, you know, I don't have to take a leap here. You've already figured this out. Because just by articulating.

Yeah, you literally said that to me, I think, in one of our first mentorship sessions. I talked through the things I was doing as a first-time author. And you're like, Jenny, you're doing all the right things. And I'm like, you know what? It just feels good to hear that. It does. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. So sometimes that listening isn't to instruct or to counsel. It's just that by talking through it, people talk themselves into solutions and clarity. Yeah, which is the best. Go ahead. Yeah. Intuit it by extroverting it.

Right. Yeah. Which is the most likely way something, a solution will come to fruition is if I create it myself, if you tell me to do something, I might be like, okay, Gretchen, whatever that works for you. But if I intuit myself, then I'm more likely to have it turn into an action. So lots of other senses in the book that you cover and touch, taste, seeing, uh, you've had, you did all sorts of experiments. I'd love for you to talk about one of your experiments that could be, uh,

the magic of ketchup and everything because of that. It could be going to the Lower East Side with your mother-in-law and your kids to taste all sorts of foods from your family's history.

It could be making the daily visit to the Met. There's a lot of experimentation, which I know is sort of part of your brand is the self-experimentation. What's something that you'd love to share about these little mini experiments in the book? Because they were so much fun. Oh, good. Yeah. I wanted to write like a fun one, not like do the five, four, three, two, one meditation, which is very serious and discipline. This is like the playful one. Well, I'll do something that people can do very easily and is small. And then I'll do something that people can do very easily, but which is large. So-

- Ketchup, ketchup is magic.

My sister bought me a ketchup t-shirt because I love ketchup so much. I never eat it because I don't eat sugar, but I now deeply appreciate ketchup. It gets a bad rap. Ketchup gets a bad rap. Help us shift the brand to ketchup. All respect to ketchup. Okay, so you're exactly right. It's dismissed. It's ubiquitous. We all take it for granted. We've all got a hundred packets falling out of our pockets or out of the drawer at work.

97% of Americans have ketchup in their fridge. I mean, this is a ubiquitous food. Like you can get it at any restaurant. It's the secret, but it is extremely complex. It is, which explains why it is the secret ingredient of many foods like pad Thai, barbecue sauce, Russian dressing. But the reason for this is that it is the very rare food that hits all five of the basic tastes.

There are other tastes that now scientists are like, well, maybe we should add this taste. But there are five that are like very firmly established. So it's sweet. It's salty. It's sour. It's bitter. And it's umami. That is very hard to pull off. Like even four is hard. Like a margarita is four, but no umami.

And I had to remind myself what umami was when I read this in the book. Can you remind us all what, like, like where else you find that or what, what the basics are? So umami is hardiness. So it's in things like meat and mushrooms and tomato sauce. It's like that. It's that savoriness.

Um, so if you think of a margarita, there's no savory meatiness to it. Whereas if you think about ketchup, there is something like, Ooh, kind of hearty about it. Um, and it's got a beautiful color. It's got a beautiful texture. There's like, what's not to love about ketchup. Um, but this explains, and I, so I had a taste party with my friends. I had my friends come over and we all like, we, we,

compared varieties of apples and potato chips and chocolate was so fun. Um, highly recommend this by the way, for work groups or friends or like family members, it's something everybody can do. It's super fun. People have a lot of opinions. There's a lot to talk about. Um, but,

But as one of the things I had, everybody just tastes ketchup. And next time I do this, I'm going to turn out the lights so people can't see it. And I'm going to ask them, what do you think it is? Because a friend of mine was like, if I didn't know that that was ketchup, I would have thought it was like this rare, super expensive ingredient because it's so complex.

It's like just put like a dollop in your mouth and really taste it. It's like your eyes will water. It's like got so many flavors and the aftertaste and the texture and mouthfeel, all that.

So that's something easy. You could just run to the kitchen right now and taste some ketchup. Here's something bigger, which when I set myself this experiment, I thought it was very idiosyncratic. But it turns out a lot of people also do this or they are interested in doing this, which is to visit the same place every day.

Yeah, I've always been very interested in repetition and watching how things change gradually over time. Like I'm just been always been very interested in that. And I live in New York and I'm so incredibly fortunate. I live within walking distance of the Metropolitan Museum. And so I decided I'll visit it every day for a year and see how it changes over time and how I change and like what I notice. I'll explore it with all five of my senses.

And since I've talked about it, many people say they do the same thing. Like they'll do exactly the same neighborhood hike or they'll do the, they'll walk to the very same tree and back. Or a guy told me that he goes to his, his same like chain drug store. There is so much going on in a big drug store. I could easily imagine going there every year for a year just to see like

what's going on? People who do forest bathing will often return to the same sit spot and observe it. There's something that for some people, some people they're like, oh my gosh, why would I chain myself to one experience when there's the whole world out there? But for some people, they're very intrigued by this idea of repetition and seeing things change over time. And you do see it

changed your perception, my perception of the Met changed dramatically over time as I grew to know it better and better and to see it in so many different conditions and in so many different ways. It was, I still go, the year is long over, but I still go every day because I love it so much. That's awesome. I hike, I'm in Boulder, Colorado, and I hike every day, pretty much the same path. And I love the consistency of it, but then I love the change that happens every time I hike. Sometimes it's snowy, sometimes it's rainy, sometimes...

It's cloudy sometimes. The mountains are, you know, really pristine and crystal clear. And sometimes they're kind of, you know, shrouded in haze and stuff. So it is fun. Well, sometimes you notice the differences more when everything else, when the basic landscape is the same, you can sort of pick up on those things. Whereas if you're going someplace new, that's a different way of engaging. Sure. Right. Exactly. Exactly. All right. I am going to do something that is totally shifting gears now.

Called this or that? Oh, I love it. So I'm just going to ask you some random things just for fun, just to get to know Gretchen Rubin better. Excellent. And for me too. So you do not know any of these questions. Just kind of like quick answer. First thought that comes to mind. You can expand a little bit if you'd like to. No real rules for this game. Okay. E-book or regular book? Regular book for sure. Okay. Passenger or driver? Passenger.

Passenger. Okay. Me too. I hate to drive. I hate driving. Oh, good. Yes. You're in Manhattan. So I feel like Manhattanites can easily be like, I never drive, but I'm in Colorado. Like I don't have that excuse. Yeah. I do not like to drive. Yeah. Me too. Air guitar or air drums? Neither. I really do not like air music playing. Tell us more.

I find it cringy for sure. Yeah, for sure. Neither camping or glamping glamping. Okay. Attend a party or host a party. Attend a party. Okay. Any more to say there?

I mean, I feel very hospitable, but I just don't like hosting for some reason. It's like, how can you feel hospitable and not want to host? I don't know. This is one of the things I want to work on in my own life. It's funny because my sister, who's the co-host of the Happy Hour podcast with me, we're exactly the same. We're both very social. We love to get together with people and we don't like to host. So we're always talking about how we're going to get over this.

So it's something to work on. I feel hospitable. Maybe just own that you don't like hosting and that's perfectly fine. Yeah, but it does... I always do enjoy it when I do it. I think it's one of those things that it's like I always...

I think if I did it more, this is one of the lessons of life. The more you do something, the less stressful it becomes because no one time matters because you do it all the time and it becomes more familiar. And right before COVID, my husband and I were like, we're going to do this. We're going to have a dinner party once a month. We're going to have like a template. All that will change is the people. We're going to have this run like clockwork. It's going to be amazing because he's the same way.

And then COVID happened in that we've never gotten back to it. So maybe by having this conversation, this is going to give me get me excited and fired up to it.

host more? Well, as my mom says, it doesn't get easier. You just get faster. So if you do have that template and if you have the strategy, you just get faster at it and it feels easier. Well, and there's no decision fatigue because you're not like, what should I serve? It's like serve the same thing every time the people are different. They don't know. Right, right. Exactly. Okay. So I'm doing a bad job doing rapid fire here. Okay, good. That was all me. That was all me. Okay. Vacation or staycation? Vacation.

truthfully a staycation. I love a staycation. I, you know, I know there's all the happiness research about novelty and experience, and I'm always happy that I went, but looking forward to it, I'm like, I do love a staycation. Yeah, me too. Especially in Manhattan. I mean, there's so much to stay there. Oh, a hundred percent. Absolutely. Introvert or extrovert? Oh, Susan Cain herself told me that I'm an ambivert.

So I'm an ambivert. Okay, fair. I think a lot of people identify that way, but you know it from the source. That's right. That's why I wear it with pride. Exactly. Okay. Most neglected sense. What is your most neglected sense? Okay. My most neglected sense is taste.

Um, which is a very popular sound. Oh, yours is set. I think sound would be my second. If I might. So I have a quiz for people who want to take a quiz. If you go to Gretchen Rubin.com slash quiz, it's a free quick quiz. I worked in the world. Yeah. I worked with a brilliant team to make it like super cool. I'm glad to hear you say that. Thank you. Yeah. Um, the bars it's, it's thought provoking too. I was like, I don't know for this one. It's, it's fun. It's like quick and easy, but very thought provoking and really fun.

Oh, good. Well, and the reason that at first I thought I would do for your most appreciated sense, but then I realized people know their appreciated sense and they're already tapped into it. What's helpful to know is your neglected sense because that's low hanging fruit. That's that's something that where you aren't already learning about it or thinking about fun adventures to go on or how you could use it to connect with other people or get recommendations. You're not you don't use it.

Because it's your neglected sense. And so I think for a lot of people, and since the quiz has been out in the world, I've heard from people who are like, oh, once I knew that's like, you like, if like,

like sound. Once I knew that sound was my most neglected sense, I said, oh, I should, why don't I try a sound bath? I never thought about doing it before because I never pay attention to my sense of sound, but I've heard they're really fun. I should try it. And then I had a whole new, like a whole new experiment. So it's a way to like, again, back to your, our original thing is like, how do you use your senses to become happier, healthier, more productive, more creative, calmer, more energized. And

the neglected sense is a very rich opportunity because you haven't been turning to it typically. Yeah, that's very true. And I became so much more aware of that as I read the book. Tell us the way to get to the quiz one more time. Oh, it's GretchenRubin.com slash quiz. Okay. I mean, mine is taste. And you know, a lot of people, that's how I got so into ketchup because I was like,

let me pay more attention to taste. And it's not like I went out and tried like a million cuisines that I'd never eaten before. Cause that is not something I want to do. I'm like one of these people who eat the same food every day, but I can learn more about the food that I do eat. I can find new ways. Like having the taste party with my friends was a way, um,

to connect through taste in kind of a fresh way, doing a taste timeline, a way to connect to memories by thinking about the taste from my past and then reminiscing with other people about that.

There were all these ways that I think other people probably would naturally do, but I had never done it because I'm not so into taste. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, fair enough. So this last one has maybe a little bit more of a story behind it. And then I'll ask you a couple more meaty questions and then we'll get into some audience Q&A here. So last one on this or that. This is about book writing in general.

Listen to all the feedback or listen to some of the feedback? Oh, listen to some of the feedback. I, I have all kinds of people around me who I really respect to give me lots of feedback and lots of constructive criticism. And I really opened my heart to that. I have all kinds of ways of making sure that I stay open to criticism. Um, but what I've learned is that I

I really do not benefit from just being open to all criticism. So like, I don't read any book reviews. I don't read any profiles because what I found is like, you know, there's the negativity bias. We're more moved by negative information than by positive information. As anybody who's been in a work review knows. And it lodges in your brain. I mean, even if I didn't, even if I didn't think it was correct, I,

I could still tell that it was affecting me. And if I'm going to stay creative and open-hearted and experimental, I need to be able to take risks and not feel defensive. And I realized that by opening myself up to so much criticism, not only was it not constructive, it was actually...

possibly making my work worse. And there was a piece of feedback you got, if I recall, from somebody kind of random who said, you shouldn't record your own audio book and you listened to them, right? And then regretted it. This is my book, Happier at Home. Um,

And somebody said, oh, you know, Gretchen shouldn't, you know, like we should have a professional actor read books. It's so much better. And this made sense to me. And I thought, well, yeah, I mean, who am I? Just some average. I'm just a writer.

it would be a better experience for the listener to have a professional actor read it. And so when they asked for my next book, like, do you want to read it or do you want to have a reader? I said, oh, well, let's have a professional. And then everybody was like, why aren't you reading your own book? Almost like it was laziness on my part. And I had done it deferring to it. And then when all these people were saying it, I was like,

First of all, why am I listening to this person? I wouldn't take her advice. Why am I listening to her criticism? I don't know who this is. It got in my brain. I didn't even question it. Like, is this even correct? It wasn't like somebody with a lot of experience and knowledge was suggesting it.

And yet it directed my behavior almost like almost without me realizing that that's what was feeding into my decision. So I feel like you want to make you want to be open to criticism from people who know what they're talking about. But being too open to criticism can just can lodge in your brain and change your behaviors in ways that you might not even be aware of and would certainly not agree with.

Yeah. And that we're allowed to filter. We are allowed to be the mechanism of what feedback we take in and what we say does not serve us. I was just interviewing another Google executive for my book. And it

if we were talking about feedback she got early in her career and she said, everyone's always said like, you, you move too fast, you move too fast. You know, need to slow down and like taking all perspectives. And she's like, you know what? I got to a point where I realized that my moving so fast makes things happen so much more quickly than the average leader. And that I go with my gut and that I take chances and I take risks. And sometimes I have to do some cleanup, but like, that's part of my, that's one of my superpowers is that I do move quickly and that I, I move with intention and I move in a way that, that,

that's authentic to me. And I was like, I love that you just decided that that feedback no longer was relevant for you. And it's good to take it in a little bit, but in your example, it's like, no, just don't pay attention at all. In a lot of examples, I think you want to know like, okay, how much of the, where, where do I apply this in a way that's useful? And then where do I just say, okay, I can't throw out the baby with the bath water and like move sluggishly now because people say I move too fast. You have to find the right happy medium. Yeah.

Well, and I also think it's back to your point about identity and possibly being willing to reframe because maybe people are telling you it's a bug and it's actually a feature because you're like, you're saying, you know, you're saying I'm too much of this, but actually that's my super strength. And I remember, I think it was a poet was saying, people said that my rhyme wasn't good, which made me try to do better with rhyme instead of seeing I shouldn't be doing this at all. You know what I mean? So sometimes...

You have to be very careful who you listen to and how you and how you process it. So, yeah, you don't want to be open to just like drive by drive by criticism. Yeah, especially with the negativity bias that plagues all of us, because that's just human nature and there's tons of research on it. OK, so it's a it's a it's a feature, not a bug. Great one line.

You talk about in the book, some of your, your, your muse machine, your Rolodex of, of all these wonderful nuggets. Will you share some of your favorites with us? Maybe you can show us your muse machine. So here it is. Okay. So this is the original Rolodex that gave me the idea because I loved it so much. Just like this old antique Rolodex from my father's office. And that's like actual Rolodex with people's contact information. Yes. No. And it was funny. Like I looked at my own contact information. It was like old addresses, you know,

- Birthdays and everything too. - Absolutely. And so I got a Rolodex, mine is a circular Rolodex and it literally like, you know, goes like that. And what I found is that if you, so I had this list of creative prompts that I'd been gathering over the years

and they really help if you're stuck. Like I said, they're just kind of these mysterious things that you have to sort of ponder and they don't necessarily, you're like, how does that even apply? So here, I'm just going to pick these at random. I'm not even, so one is take away the polish. Oh, I like, oh, I like that. One of them is analyze how someone else approached a similar problem. Also good.

One is explore a paradox. I love paradoxes. Yeah. One is if you can't find something, clean up.

That's literally true and metaphorically true. Oh, this one we were just talking about. You already know what to do. There you go. Sometimes just reminding people. But and but when I created this, I was calling it indirect directions, which I was a name I didn't like. So my first thing that I did with the with the with this was to pick a card to try to break, try to come up with a better title for it.

And the card I picked was find a fresh metaphor. Love it. And it took me several weeks, but then I realized Muse Machine. That was my metaphor. It's great. And as you were scrolling through, one caught my eye. Rearrange the pieces, which is a great one too. That one, I use that one all the time.

the time, all the time. It's amazing how much you can unlock if you rearrange these. A lot of people do this with index cards. Yeah. All of these are like, you could write a whole book about, and I'm thinking about writing a handbook to go with this actually, because I'm so enchanted with, with these, these ideas. But you know, one day. Is it more full or more empty? Do you have more space to write or? Oh yeah. I have more space to write. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But I have,

It's a whole ongoing process. You know, with creativity, it's like the minute you think, OK, I'm done, you're like, oh, no, now I have a whole different take. Yeah. Let's let's maybe cover one more point before we go into the audience Q&A. You just mentioned creativity. So let's let's tap tap on that for a moment. How have you used your five senses to be more creative as you wrote this book?

Well, there are two things I would say that were really, really effective that I would suggest for other people to think about. One is if you're feeling creatively stuck and you sort of want to do something to shake yourself up, just go to a place that has a lot of materials that people use to create. And it doesn't have to be something that you know how to do. You,

You could go to a music store, even though you're not even a sound person. You can go to an art supply store. You could go to a farmer's market. You could go to a craft store. You could go to a hardware store, like a home store. There's just something about being around materials. Like you can put your hands in like the screws or like brush the paintbrush tops, see all the things. It just kind of unlocks your brain. And it's very, it's a very...

satisfying thing to do. It kind of overwhelms the senses. And, you know, nothing's better than a hardware store smell. You know, it just gives you, it sort of will shock your system and that will often unlock ideas. Another thing to do is give yourself some recess. So I did this by going to the Met. Like I'm very, very disciplined and I knew the only way I could take goof off was to schedule time to goof off.

So I go to the Met and while I'm there, I'm doing whatever I think about. I'm walking around. People are like, is this a meditation? This is the opposite of meditation because I'm letting my mind off the leash. There is no, it's long, it's short. I'm doing whatever I want. And there's enormous research showing that taking breaks, giving yourself time

Virginia Woolf said, my mind works in idleness. To do nothing is often my most, what is it? I can't remember the exact quotation. So find a way to give yourself recess, whether that's doing the same thing every day, which is not for everyone, but just looking for opportunities, going for a walk, just doing something where you allow yourself

this is why people get good ideas in the shower or during a commute, allow yourself to have this open time. And that means like, you can't be like focusing on a podcast every single second that you're in the car or whatever, because you have to have time where guilty, guilty. Yeah. But I mean, but it's like, but it's those down times where you kind of come up with unexpected associations, strange juxtapositions, um,

things connect in a way that maybe, you know, you hadn't realized before. But you have to kind of make room for it because especially for people who are very disciplined and very productive, that downtime can feel like wasted time, but it's not wasted time. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Let's take some audience questions here. Ah, interesting. Okay. So Victoria's asking about...

What advice you have for introverts who feel like they're almost too good of listeners and want to be more active participants in life and conversation? Thoughts on this one?

That is a great question. So for being more active participants in life, one thing I would say is think about a great question always for something like this is to think about when have you succeeded in the past? So can you think of a work situation or a life situation where you felt like you were participating in the way that you would like to participate? So maybe this was a time where you were like...

Like having regular coffees with just one other person. Or maybe this was a work team that for some particular reason you felt more comfortable talking about. Because a lot of times there are clues in the past for what we can do in the present. And so you can think about that.

I don't want to get into my whole four tendencies personality framework because that's a whole other thing. But if you know your tendency, which you can find out at GretchenRubin.com slash quiz, if you are an obliger, which is the biggest category for both men and women, so it's very likely that you could be an obliger, think of your duty to be a role model for other people. This can sometimes help where it's like, I want to show...

then I will talk. And if I talk, then others will feel more free to talk. And by doing so that you kind of create external out of accountability, even for something that you want to do, uh, for some people, even tracking can help. Like I'm going to say at least one thing in every meeting, like, you know, we manage what we, what we monitor. So you might set yourself like, um,

aims to hit because sometimes, especially with things, with certain things, we think they should sort of be spontaneous and natural. But if something's important to us, it's really very helpful to think it through and how could we actually change that behavior

And often once we get started, it's not as hard to keep it up, but we might need to like really specifically think about how to cultivate a different kind of behavior. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I might offer two additional quick things here. One is that.

and two is leadership. Definition, I would say maybe expand your definition of participation. If it feels uncomfortable to raise your hand live in that team meeting and say something out loud because you're an introvert, participation can also be over chat or can be to the group over email after the meeting, which might feel more comfortable. So that's the definition of participation. You might...

widen the aperture on that. You also might, I always encourage leaders. And if any leaders, I'm sure we have plenty of leaders on this call listening. A lot of the onus is on us as leaders to include people who are introverts. So a way to only include the extroverts is to say, we've got this big marketing project. It's really good for the business in your career. Raise your hand if you want it. Okay, great. Jimmy, it's yours, right? That only, that bias is toward the extroverts in the room. But to say, we've got this big project. It's good for your career. It's good for the business. Think about it over this next week. Let me know over email by the end of the week.

If you're interested, I'll then pick from the number of people who let me know and then pick based on that. That honors the introverts in the room who might need a little bit more time to process or to think or to ask questions and you're one-on-one with them before they can instantly raise their hand like an extrovert might. So I think that definitions can help aperture and that leadership can play a really big role in bringing in the introverts and leading in a way that honors them as much as extroverts. That's great. That's a great, great suggestion. Next

Next question. Pooja is asking how to use the five senses to manage and minimize distractions and ruminations at work. And how do you help get started with a task? Because we have a lot of distractions. Like we have a whole plan at Google, right? Like lots of things. We've got music playing. We've got micro kitchens that are always tempting us to have a snack. How do we minimize some of those distractions?

Okay, so many thoughts. Okay, just, so one thing about the kitchen, because you just mentioned it. Here is a great sort of hack. A lot of times, if it's the middle of the afternoon and you're bored or listless or restless, we go rummage through the fridge or the cabinets for a little hit of taste. But you can substitute a different sense and use that to get your hit of energy. So instead of-

What? As effective maybe and less calories. Well, yeah. And a lot, yeah, because, because turning to your sense of taste for some people could be a healthy treat, but for a lot of people, it's not a healthy treat. And so they want to do something else. And so let's say you love music. Maybe this, you use that time to like explore new music and you save it for that time. Or like, I love the sense of smell. So I'll go off and smell fresh towels or I'll smell a big jar of pickles or something.

If you love touch, maybe you have something that you love to touch or run your fingers through. And I'm not sure if this works because it just distracts you from, you know, you're like you're headed in one direction and this just gets you veered off. So that's the strategy of distraction. Or if it's that there really is something about the stimulation that the body is seeking new stimulation as a way to get a jolt of energy. And it doesn't matter if it's this sense or that sense.

I'm not sure. It's probably both. Usually things are like both. But whatever, for whatever reason, it really works. So like I have like I have all these smells, kind of these naturalistic, weird smells. And I'll just go smell a smell. Someone's like, why do you have that smell of Black March? It's just weird.

Smells like like a cold wittery day in March. I'm like, I just smell it You know, it doesn't do anything other than just be a smell So this is that's a way to handle something like getting distracted by your desire to snack if that's like a not a healthy habit um One of the things like talking about the open office one of the things that was fascinating to me in my study the five senses is that the brain is especially attuned to people

Information about people is the most important information because people mean opportunity and people mean danger. And so if you're in a place that's got a lot of people, you're probably going to find that more distracting because those spaces, you know, we have special parts of the brain that light up with faces because we're always looking at faces and hearing. We're specially attuned to human voices,

And so this kind of information is very compelling to the brain. And so you want to think about, okay, well, maybe I'll put myself where I can't see people moving around in my sight line. Because even if I have my noise-canceling headphones on, if I see people moving around, my eyes are going to dart up. Like you just sort of can't help it.

Another thing about, oh yeah, interrupt. Yeah. You just mentioned something very basic, but sometimes we forget the most basic things. I would say this is common sense, but not always common practice. You said, even if you have your noise canceling headphones on, if you don't have noise canceling headphones and you're in an open office space, get noise canceling headphones or big headphones that, you know, help you focus for you.

for years I sat in an open office plan and didn't have headphones. And I was like, Jenny, just get yourself some headphones. Yeah. Well, and it's interesting. So now turning to sensory surround auditory surroundings. So one of the things is if you're trying to focus, people really benefit from different environments. So there's like, for example, so Jenny, I would love to know, do you want silence or,

Do you want a busy home like a coffee shop or like a crowded cafeteria? Do you want white noise, brown noise, pink noise? Do you want music with words or do you want music without words? What do you want if you're trying to focus?

I want total silence or brown noise. And I think you mentioned the book, you like pink noise, right? Which I want to check out because I never thought about doing anything but brown noise on my app, but like in, in this office and I am fortunate enough to work in an office and because I like silence, I can close the door. And I know that's a very fortunate situation because a lot of Google, you know, is out on the floor. Um,

But like there's this, the air conditioning unit, it like has this little rattle and hum and it comes on and off. And every time it comes on, I'm like, I can't focus. Yeah. From this tiny little, little, little, tiny space.

little hum. So silence. Yeah. I like silence too. I like silence or second is busy hum. But I, and I went through this period and I read about it in the book. I had, I was just craving silence so much. I kicked my family out of the apartment so I could just be home alone. But what I realized is it wasn't actual silence that I was craving. It was human silence.

It was just, it was the sound of people talking. And so it's very like, so people have very different auditory preferences. And that's why I am not a fan of like, let's have music playing because that'll make everybody energetic. Or here's some research showing that people are more creative and productive. If there's jazz playing, I'm like,

that might be true for most people. That might be true for a particular person, but it might not be true for you. And hey, data point of one is the data point I care about. And so it's really helpful to know what is best for you. So as much as you can within your control, you can create that environment. Or if you're working with other people, you can talk through it. Not as like one person's right, one person's wrong. But given that we need to create an environment where we all thrive,

I mean, I remember, and then so there's clearing clatter and there's also clearing clutter. I think this is a big thing. And I don't think there's an easy solution to it for the open office. I remember going into somebody and they had had like a Halloween party.

contests for like decorating different areas and like one was like the beach and one was like Southwest and it was very cool and they were so excited about it and I was like I could never work here it was just like too much for me you know to it was overwhelming and so again it's like understanding like some people find that really energizing and like the creative juices are flowing and there's all this fuzz and profusion and that other people are like okay wow that is way too much

So just to be aware of like, how can you get where you need to be? And how do we create environments where everyone can thrive, given that we have to cooperate? Yeah. And what's in your control and what's out of your control? Exactly. Always good to consider. Next question.

Christy is asking, ah, interesting. Okay, so did you explore the five senses as it relates to the four seasons? I love the season so much, but sometimes she feels so caught up in it every day that she misses out on the full experience. Thoughts on how senses relate to seasons, Gretchen?

Oh, 100%. And I so agree. It's like winter is over and you're like, I never stopped to appreciate it. Or like, oh, spring and the park is full of all these trees with flowering blossoms. But I'll go tomorrow. I'll go tomorrow. I'll go tomorrow. And then it's over. I absolutely thought about the four seasons and really wanting to experience the four seasons, making sure that I got outside every single day. I'm really trying to

experience what every season had to offer. So things like buying paper white narcissus flowers in the wintertime when it's very associated with wintertime. I was just... But I'm still...

Here I am. I just wrote this book. It comes out today. And I just today was thinking, I love hyacinths beyond all things. I love the smell of hyacinths. I kept saying to myself, I should buy a hyacinth and bring it back and have it in my office. So my whole office feels like hyacinth.

And all of a sudden they've just vanished. It's like I missed hyacinth season. So I think this is something where every season you have to say, how do I how do I really drink up everything that the season offers and not let it pass me by? Because it does. It passes so fast. You think it's going to be winter forever and then it's over.

This is for the Muse Machine, and this is a freebie. Seize the season. Seize the season. There you go. There you go. The days are long, but the years are short. Yeah. Did you say that originally? I didn't realize that was you. It is, right? So here's the thing. I remember thinking of that. Like, I remember playing with the words and doing it. Somebody has said to me, like, no, I read this other source.

I have to say it's not the most original idea because it's like, it's like one of these paradoxes where, you know, where like nothing's more expensive than something free. Nothing, you know, nothing's freer than free. Nothing's more expensive than free. Like probably many people have said, I remember thinking it up for myself, but it's, you know, sometimes you think sometimes people have the same idea. So,

I did think it up, but I don't know that I'm the first person to think it's a great line and invite everybody else listening right now to credit it to you as I did. I did originally, I thought of it like I, you know, had the like sweat pouring down my face to get it right. It's great. It's great. Very applicable to parenting. Very applicable to life, to the seasons. Yeah. So true. I know. I know.

Well, Gretchen, what a total delight to have this conversation with you and to think more about the five senses here. A couple of things I took away. You can tap into each of these five senses in ways that both cheer you up and calm you down. And for people like you and me, sometimes we need a little bit more to calm us down. If we tend to live in our head a little bit, I think we're cut from the same cloth in some ways.

You can mute yourself in meetings as a very practical tactic to listen more and to deeply understand. And you've said listen with your whole body and make sure that you're moving your phone away from arm's reach so that you can really give your full attention to the person you're speaking with. Ketchup gets a bad rap, but it's highly complex. And take away the polish.

Take away the polish. So as you go out on this book launch week, I hope that you take away any polish that you expected for yourself or everything going perfectly and know that there'll be mistakes and bumps in the road and delayed flights and, you know, what?

wardrobe that, you know, was the wrong outfit that you meant to pack. Putting a sharpie against my skirt, which I've done before. Yeah. For that, for that. Well, thank you so much. What a true pleasure to have this conversation with you. And thank you from the bottom of my heart for all the ways you've helped me. And hopefully we can continue to stay connected as I enter this journey and you continue to write more and more incredible books that help so many people. Well, thank you so much. I so enjoyed the conversation.

Thanks for listening. You can watch this episode and tons of other great content at youtube.com forward slash toxic Google. Talk soon.