Building Networks, Not Just Hiring: The Global Talent Strategy with Mark Reinecke
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When I discuss with senior leaders, when I have interviews, assess them for senior roles,

And they come to me and I ask them, so what makes you unique? So how would you see yourself? 80% of them tell me what they can't do. They tell me the development needs. And I say, is it how we do a pitch? What you really can bring to the table? You sit with a headhunter and tell me what you can't do. Why don't you tell me what you're really good at? Your exceptional value add, your competitive advantage, because that's what makes the impact, not what you cannot do. There is a development need where you need a mitigation strategy.

So I always believe in unique strengths brings you further than you could. Welcome to Analyze Asia, the premier podcast dedicated to dissecting the pulse of business technology and media in Asia. I'm Bernard Leung. And the hunt for global talent, given the proliferation of technologies from AI to drones, how do multinational corporations in the world handle the new wave of talent acquisition and retention?

With me today, a really special guest that's very close to my heart, Mark Reinecker, Senior Vice President, Top Executive Management and Talent Acquisition to talk through this. I'm very thankful because Mark is the person who recruited me to Airbus and I have very fond memories of the company still leading today in global aviation. Mark, welcome to the show. Thank you, Bharat. Yes, so you are here for the Space and Technology Week.

I'm actually here for two events. Originally, we were always part of a cooperation between the STAR program and the Global Space Technology Convention. This year, for the first time, EDB decided as well to trade Space Week. So we have five or six events together with the STAR program. I will elaborate a little bit later what the STAR program is. Yes. But it's a cooperation we have.

since many years. - Yeah, and being an ex-alum of it, to also start off, I think I want to know a lot more about your origin story. How did you start your career? - I started my career a very long time ago. So it's actually more than three decades. I'm not an aerospace geek. I'm not an aviation guy by nature. I was born in a very small town in the Northern part of Germany. Most of the people know it because the headquarter of VW is located there, Volkswagen.

So I joined the automotive industry, but not VW. I joined Mercedes. Oh, that's a nice car. Absolutely. And I didn't want to spend my life where I was born because I'm an adventurous guy. I like to discover new places. So I went to join Mercedes as a trainee, did several jobs in HR in Stuttgart, Berlin, and before being in charge of international HR for the Western Hemisphere for the truck division.

Then finally, eventually, you're with Airbus. It's actually a very funny story. A former colleague of mine joined, back then it was called Daimler-Benz Aerospace. He joined a satellite company called Dornier. And he called me one day and said, hey, don't you want to join Airbus? I said, Airbus?

Airbus is a subsidiary of Daimler-Benz Aerospace, which is a subsidiary of Daimler-Benz. So it's the third leg in a subsidiary role. So why should I join them? I'm here sitting nice and bad water in Stuttgart and having a nice job. No, I don't want. I did a mistake. I went there and I laughed when I saw them. And it was actually a company called Air Cabin back then. It was a subsidiary of Airbus producing panels for aircraft interior.

I love the people, I love the management. And so I decided to join them as HR director and spend there for two and a half years. And then they eventually lead you to Airbus. It was part of Airbus at the end of the day, but it was not the end of my automotive journey. So what I did afterwards after two and a half years, because back then Daimler needed people because Daimler is a very, I can say it here,

It used to be back then a very central organized company. And they liked people when they moved. So they saw somebody who moved from the automotive division into the aerospace sector. So they want to be back. So in the end of 1999, beginning of the 2000s, I was asked to come back primarily at the beginning to be part of the PMI, Post Merger Integration, Timeline Chrysler back then. So I spent a lot of time in Detroit.

Later on, it was a certain kind of project for the way how to develop, analyze, potential assessment for senior leaders. I ended up being for two years the head of HR for subsidiary, a joint venture between Porsche and Daimler. Super interesting story. Very interesting story. Honestly, I think I would have stayed there a little bit longer had Daimler not decided to

back off and give all the shares back to portion i know that story and so you eventually get into airbus you do now good fostering searching for the best talent to hire for airbus so before i get to the main subject of the day i want to ask you in your career journey what are the key lessons that you can share with my audience well it's tough one yeah i would

would say first of all make daily learning a habit because what brought you there might not bring you further so you need to be able to reinvent yourself yeah if you always do the same thing you always have the same result the world is evolving and the result is going to be always the same yeah but if the world evolves the world will be ahead of you the second is what people never know when i discuss with senior leaders when i have interviews assess them for senior roles

And they come to me and I ask them, so what makes you unique? So how would you see yourself? 80% of them tell me what they can't do. They tell me their development needs. And I say, is it how you do a pitch? Is it what you really can bring to the table? You sit with a headhunter and tell me what you can't do? Why don't you tell me what you're really good at, your exceptional value add, your competitive advantage? Because that's what makes the impact, not what you cannot do.

Pares is a development need where you need a mitigation strategy. So I always believe in unique strengths brings you further in your career. So I want to get to the main subject of the day. I want to think about global leadership acquisition and management because this is a pretty poker era now. So I want to first get a sense of, can you talk about more about your role and responsibility within Airbus itself?

It's a very long title, as you mentioned at the beginning, the top executive management talent acquisition. In the end, it's pretty simple. It's I'm in charge of the top 250, everything that corresponds to staffing, recruitment, succession plan, development,

for the top 250 leaders. So whatever comes with it, I work on behalf of the chief HR officer together with the executive committee and the board of directors, but the board of directors will be supplied by my boss. And what we do is ensuring that we really have the right developed top executives here at all time. We have a development plan, a career path.

We do a lot of things like other companies as well, coaching, leadership pros and internal, external mentoring and so on and so forth. And we really use as well external experts to help them create an outside. Then there's one part, and you will laugh again now, which is the talent acquisition. And talent acquisition is not that we are only hunting their people outside.

It is really the creation of a certain kind of ecosystem, which we have done some years ago. So we have two sources here. We have one that's a start program, but we come to this a little bit later. And we have as well executive search partners who help us fill the pipe and to fill the pool of friends of the house who might one day join or not have us.

You don't have to join Airbus to be a friend of the House of Airbus. Yes, I know. Being part of the program, very honored. And it's probably one of the best places to actually have very good conversations. I mean, for example, Victoria Coleman, who recently joined, I think was a very long time attendee of the STAR program meetings as such. So from your perspective, how do you now look at the landscape of global talent and then analyze them before approaching them to join your organization?

Before we approach people, I would say the most important is that you know what you want.

So you need a certain kind of strategy. So you need to have your succession planning right and you need some strategic foresight. So we constantly try to analyze industry trends, leadership competencies and the requirements and lately more and more skills. Because people, as you know, talk more about skills management, etc. Because a lot of people have skills you don't even know about, which might be needed for the future.

before we say okay this is the person we want to have it's really not about just a job request and then we look for the right people here so it's much more another thing we do is internally very often that we really make sure that our people really have the right performance track record because very often we talk about leadership and leadership

I always emphasize as well on the sometimes you need some hard skills in order to do the job, which is as important as the leadership part. Yeah. And another thing you see for people joining Airbus, I know you're going to ask me about it because you went through it yourself, the cultural and leadership with Airbus, which is not an easy part there. And again,

We are trying to build long lasting relationships with people. It's not about jumping in and recruit. We try to connect, which is much better than just, okay, tick the box. Okay, there is a person, put him on the job. Yeah. And then how do organizations actually approach, say, the challenge of actually

attracting this and integrating talent just from outside the core industry, right? For example, we talk about myself and some of the other fellows within the STAR program from like, say, they are basically experts in certain technology. Could it be AI, computer vision, you know, digital transformation, even sustainability. How do you actually approach in trying to bring them into aviation industry? Because the cultural values is very different and even the expertise required, you know,

I actually enjoyed my learning curve with Airbus. I went through a very good onboarding program, really get to know the business. And even today when people ask me, it's like, yeah, when I tell them a little bit more about aviation, it's like, wow, we didn't know it was that complex. Like, wow, Airbus taught me everything then. Again, it's not about recruitment.

it's about really strategic capability building in key areas like digital transformation, innovation. Our core expertise is aerospace, is aviation, and it will always be. But we need to cross-fertilize it. It's cross-industry knowledge that can accelerate innovation and bring fresh perspectives. And having said that, there comes a price with it because the people come with a certain kind of experience

which is different than the one in Airbus, which is on the one side good,

On the other side, it will be a shock for the system if you come with this knowledge. How to really make sure that we can harvest this. That's the critical part where we really, really, really put a lot of emphasis. We know it's not easy. We are not always successful, but we definitely need fresh eyes. And again, Airbus' ambition on the leading aviation industry globalization journey is still there. The goal is still 2050 of net zero carbon emission. And a

alone with our people, I don't think we'll achieve it. We have very good people in our company, very good engineers. Yeah. But we need as well some challenges for people, some challenges from the outside of our industry. So what's the one thing you know about in this area of getting talent acquisition and management that very few do? What I do this week?

Oh, okay. I'm here for the STAR program, five days in Singapore, Space Week and Global Space and Technology Convention with a lot of stars, fellows of yours. And I have a normal job. But this week is not about my normal job. I'm really here solely for the STAR program. And it's the long impact of the STAR program, and I will elaborate a little bit more. Yes. Because other companies mainly focus on leadership development. That's right. What we have done with the STAR program is a strategic corporate development program.

program, which aims at creating an external network for our executive committee and top management. We launched this back in 2013. Actually, the idea is from 2012 when I was together with the head of innovation of Korn Ferry, late Peter Everett, who unfortunately passed away. We were sitting, having a good glass of wine, and we came. So why do we always have to recruit when we have a problem or with a hammer when we have an open job?

Why can't we just get the knowledge in a different way? Because, you know, what you want is the knowledge. Yeah. Does it always mean you have to hire somebody? Or if you have a problem, what do you do? You recruit internally, you recruit externally, you hire a consultant. There must be something else. And it came with the idea of creating a club of friends of the house. Yeah.

thought leaders, next practice leaders, who are somehow unique. They can be completely different than other people. They can come from NGOs, they can come from startups, they can come from administrations, they can come from MNCs, but it doesn't have to be aviation. They can come from whatever you want, industry, from functions worldwide.

And it was enabling us to really getting these next practices, innovative thinking and enabling the needs outside India for us. Because when you ask internal people, when top manager asks, and we are all part somehow of an organization, when an internal top manager asks his teams, they don't really dare to tell you what they think. A consultant on the other side will tell you what you know and charges you a bond.

Yes. These people, and you were part of it, you were sitting on this side of the workshops, yeah? Yes, yes. And having discussions. You are practitioners and you tell us, even we don't want to hear it, even sometimes it hurts. And our top managers, they love it. They are on the hotspot, but they go there because they say, okay, we learned something. These people don't hide. We hide.

If they don't hide back. I would have to also thank Peter, who actually got me into the STAR program and get to really have frank and interesting conversations. I think I met Jesse Kelman, Daniel Baumuller, who's actually one of the co-founders of Amazon Prime Air, and many of the other stars, Marcus and John as well. So I want to hear some interesting stories here. Can you share a success story where you brought in one of the

the talent from the STAR programme and bring them into Airbus and that has made some significant change and improvements within the organisation.

I tried to do it without naming it. Yeah, without naming it. Yeah, because we have a certain kind of chat-ham rules as well. So, but I named somebody who you may know who it is, who was a member of the STAR program, was based out of Singapore. He is originally Dutch. Yeah. Very long working for a big MNC. I knew him for 10 years.

And we were always in touch over the years and he always brought insight. He was part of the workshops, et cetera, and so on. And ultimately becoming, coming from another global conglomerate, he came into Airbus. Yeah. Took a while. Yes. It took 10 years, but it was never the aim. So we did jump on this. Yeah. And say, and again, I don't, don't know if I say it, I don't think I said it, but the STAR program is not a recruitment program. That's right. Yeah.

It can lead to recruitment, but the aim is really having thought leadership discussions with an external advisory council. Correct.

So this person came in and immediately he was in the commercial organization, brought his external view, was running in the region Europe and is now, and the people can look it up because I still don't want to say the name. And now made it after a couple of years, really with his external view and very international background. He's definitely somebody who's now part of the executive committee in charge of all the international organization.

And it was a full success, even though at the beginning people were a bit, okay, he's different than we are. But the difference is, when you brought is the open mindset, curiosity, and we needed it to create our international organization. So this is where I want to ask you, what are the kinds of challenges organizations face from integrating this external talent from the different industries into the

a traditional industry like aviation to get that unique corporate culture. We talk about it and I think you alluded to the fact that it's not really very simple. It's not as in you snap, you bring a talent in. There needs to be some integration and maybe people within the system also get a little bit of a shock as that happens. What are the things that you just try to make sure that you have to do so that this talent can integrate and essentially become a team player?

of the organization? It's a tough one because normally you think, okay, you hire somebody from the outside with an executive search firm. Very often you do assessments, you do several interviews. As you know it, you have eight or ten interviews before you are finally selected. At that level, even maybe it's the blessing of the executive competition.

But the complexity of our industry, the regulations, the certification process have played a pivotal role on how the culture is. We have longer development cycles. Everything takes a long time.

And for people who come from fast-paced industries, startups, they get very nervous. Meetings, the governance culture, and you know what, you sit in meetings and you ask yourself, why are we not deciding? We've decided already. There are really challenges for them. So we have to make sure that they do understand that. I have to bring you back to the year 1999 when it was decided to create this company back then, EADS. Yes.

Four companies, four countries, and the day after they are one, there should be one company, one culture. It takes time. We have learned to accept diversity and the differences because that's for me accepting diversity. It's diversity. But it takes time that you don't fight it. And then on top of that, our engineers and we are engineering driven company. They are so proud and I'm proud myself. I'm not an engineer of what they produce. Yes.

And you have seen it. When you can see the drones, when you can see the platforms, when you can see the aircraft, the helicopters, the satellites, it's just wow. They have tears in their eyes. So they're so proud. So, hey, okay, why should we do something else different? Now, what does this new person bring me in the end of the day when he or she comes in? We are great. So why change? But again, as I said before,

If we continue to do what we have been doing in the past, the world is evolving. And now with things like AI, we all know how things can evolve very fast. And the last point I want to mention, Bernd, is we have a very high tissue rejection. I don't know how it is in other multinationals. And it's very, very, very, very key that we help the people. And we have for all the top leaders,

We have an exclusive tailor-made onboarding program. They get assigned a buddy. This buddy, you can ask, the buddy is not there to mentor you. The buddy is there that you can ask any stupid question from where do I have to go to the toilet, to the canteen, to what is the best way to reach out to a person, where to park my car, it's really to indulge the culture, but to have a safe harbor to ask somebody who knows the culture,

And to really have a chance to ask this person questions you don't dare to ask because you don't want to look dumb. You can't look dumb in this way. You don't want to ask this. And have you ever thought about the fact that maybe you also have reverse pollinated into the people who are in the staff program who get to understand Airbus culture? I, for one, actually learned a lot about, actually I came to appreciate safety a lot more, the appreciation of actually building for quality.

Have you ever thought that that might have even had reverse pollinated from the group of people who usually comes from having these conversations and learning on that? Again, I think it's a two-way street. It's not a one-way street. We learn a lot. I know that even people who have been with Airbus and we have learned as well that take your own case, Bernard, you came in for a vision. Yeah.

When the mission was finished, it was clear that maybe your future is not with Apple, which is okay. And it was difficult for us to accept it as an HR organization to say, okay, why do you bring in people for three or four years and then they go and say, yeah, because the mission is finished.

It's the new way of doing things. You asked me earlier about the gig economy. There's a cross-pollination in the end of the day. And to be very frank, I think we learn as much as the stars learn or people who join Airbus that they leave. I have a really curious question. One of the most interesting parts of the Star Programme is actually to be able to have all these very interesting and...

groundbreaking conversations about technologies and what is this a value in the aviation space or maybe even adjacent businesses as well. What are your perspectives now looking at say emerging technologies, for example, AI, not necessarily generated AI, right? And other technologies sometimes could be 3D printing and maybe now we've been sometimes people even talk about crypto. I don't know how it gets into it, but

How do those perspectives that you hear from shape the way even how you think about what you do in Airbus daily? Like the way you maybe you think about acquiring and attaining talent? Well, let me give an answer. And here I take my role as an HR guy because I'm not an engineer. Otherwise, I will look stupid in front of you because you are an engineer, but I would talk about artificial intelligence.

AI will definitely play a major role and a key role in the future of HR. We are already at the first step of this journey when it comes to feeding succession plans, but it's really at the beginning because we have to do our homework first. Because everybody talks about AI, I wouldn't say, okay, we have to get our act together because we have so many data. We first have to decide, okay,

What is it that we want to achieve? The question is, what would you want to have as an outcome? Then to collect the data. And then maybe we talk about machine learning at the end of the day in order to have some tools which can identify successes for us. But you need to make your homework. The homework is collect the data, ask the key questions at the end of the day.

What is it what you want to achieve? What is the career breaker? What is the career maker? Is it the language? Is it the boss? Is it the structure? Is the salary increase? Is the development program? What is it what brings you there? So unless we haven't done that, we cannot blame AI for not giving us the right people out of the system. So for me, we're not planning to automatize things because in the end, for me,

a certain kind of thing, able to make better human decisions because at the end we are humans. And honestly, I strongly do believe that it will help us a lot to improve our decision making, even on the onboarding maybe once. Yes. But again, I think it will remain individual development, remains a human expertise. And I won't give up on that.

Does any of talking on these new topics along with the other members of the STAR programme gives you a perspective of what the future will look like in the aviation industry as well? Well, that's a tough one because I get so many perspectives out of the discussions with the STAR programme. I maybe highlight two things. Yesterday, two days ago, come back to the week,

Two days ago, we had a new session with this star program member, made a certain kind of presentation for stars and app management. So it wasn't app as hosting, and it was more about how AI and what are the five most relevant technologies, blockchain, artificial intelligence, robotics, etc., which will definitely have a major impact on all industries, on society.

and we have five years to get ready. What's our plan? It was super interesting to see, and you saw the people just melting away.

And so you get out of it and you start to think, what does it mean for me? What does it mean for my family? What does it mean for Airbus? What does it mean for my job? So it's an inspiration. Honestly, it's just unique. Second thing is, do you remember, I don't know if you remember, we had our workshops on UAVs. Yes, I remember that.

And we have for sure super people around the table. Everybody was raving UAVs is going to come as Etro and so on. Unfortunately, we had the CEO of an insurance company around the table who said technology is great. You will build it.

And I have no doubts one day these things are going to fly, you Airbus, other companies etc. and so on. When I hear you all, it's just about the business model, it's about the scaling up, it's about the technology, who owns what and who does what. The one question I would like to ask you guys all sitting around, when this thing falls off the sky, who is accountable? The OEM? The city? The regulator?

a pilot, passenger, or whoever. There must be somebody and because somebody must be accountable and liable. And we have to ask this question. There was silence in the room. That's what I describe in the end, because he was not a regulator. Regulator, we know how they work. He was from the insurance side. And he wasn't, by the way, he's aviation, but he knows aviation very well. But we were taking a break, reflecting, thinking,

It brings a new perspective. And that's how it always works in these discussions. So I'm probably going to ask, what is the one question you wish people would ask you more about global talent acquisition and management? I said, the Saar Programme is my hobby, which it definitely is. And many people, I would put it this way. Some people ask me, Mark, why do you think networks are so important? Why do you think networks are so important? That's my question now.

I know what. And here, frankly, and I talk about internal and the external network, and I give two examples. People underestimate the power of network. A network doesn't mean that you just go around and meet people for the sake of meeting people. Network means to me that you have a genuine professional network and you can ask people.

and they can help you to do something. Particularly in Airbus, it's super important because you can learn from them. Because whenever you know somebody and people are somehow still scared to ask. When you look at our community, the 200 stars we have, you throw a question in, somebody will answer. And whatever it is, you get the answer. And the same applies for Airbus, which is a very complex company. I always tell the people, take your time to create the network.

Because if you don't know, people don't know you. And you won't get things done. I know some people think it's a waste of time. I strongly believe in a company like Airbus, which is, because of its history, very complex. Four founding countries. You need to spend the time with the people to get to know them and they get to know you. And if you don't want to do that, you're set up for failure. The second thing is the external network.

We have spoken a lot about the STAR Programme. I don't even know if it was the intention you had to speak a lot about the STAR Programme. It's not my intention. I'm very often approached by colleagues, by other companies, "We have heard about the STAR Programme. What is it? We would like to do it." And I have no problem sharing what we do.

Even though Shatham rules apply when we are on the Star Programme workshops because these are friends, we don't have NDAs, to be very clear, with any of the stars, so they get more information, but we trust them as they trust us. And the problem is that people think you can create something like this in one or two years. And it's not a budget line. It's not about money. Yes, it costs money when we do these things, but for me, it doesn't cost, it's an investment.

And the investment is not the money that there's a budget on it, it's the time. I spend in peak times 50, 60% of my time for the startup program, normally it's about 30, 40%. Which is a lot.

And this applies as well for somebody in my team who's working with some other team members who support that. I try to visit every star once a year. So friendship needs to be nurtured. It's like plants. You don't water them, they fade away and they die. That's right. And friendship dies away. So if I don't see you for the next 10 years, you say, okay, I haven't seen you for 10 years. He's not interested in me, so I'm not interested in him. And the same applies for Airbus.

As we meet regularly, we stay in touch. We discuss about trends. You ask me to do a podcast. Yes, of course. And that's how it works. And people are not ready to invest the time. They think they can buy friendship. And when they realize, and it's not depending only on the product. Yes, we have super products. But it's not depending only on the product. It's much more depending as well on the willingness to set it up.

to have a long breath because we do it since 10 years, we still do it and we have done nearly 200 workshops with the stars for our top management. And it's still there and it's getting bigger and bigger. Yeah, I'm totally, I'm still there for some of the gatherings and it's really a great place to actually have those intellectual conversations. So I have my traditional closing question. What does great look like for you for 2021?

for global talent acquisition and management in a large corporation. I take my Habitat again. Don't talk about this stuff anymore because we have been speaking about that so long. Preparation of the next generation of leaders, robustness of succession plan and diversity, while I emphasize diversity with a capital D, that means gender, international, etc. We are an international company. We definitely need as well international mindset. So we need different people.

And we know what the price comes with because different people means different cultures. You know my background. I'm quite diverse, even though I'm officially originally from Germany, but I've spent most of my life not in Germany. And we need really to ensure that the company is led by the best minds.

and who are not only exceptional in their own fields, but they are deeply aligned with our mission. You know that our mission is pioneering sustainable aerospace for a safer, united world. So they need to embark on this journey. And there are long-term things like I discussed, succession plans at all levels, be ready.

Being attractive to talent and not only attracting them, retaining them. Yes. And that is the key issue. This has a lot of things to do with the culture, the way we do things, the way you welcome people and so on. So that they don't go away after six months, etc. and swallow the bitter pill and then afterwards spit it out as we don't know.

And the second thing is preparing our current leaders. There are a lot of leaders out there who see all these new technologies coming, everything coming. They heard the name of AI, but they don't really know what it is. They probably know what the difference between AI and machine learning is. And so on and so forth. But we need to take time to prepare them as well.

Because they might still be there. So it's again, it's preparing the future, but as well taking care of the ones who are there in because they might still be there for a couple of years and they're good guys, ladies to make them successful. Mark, many thanks for coming on the show. And I say I really look forward to having this conversation with you over the last 10 years. And I really got this. So in closing, I have two quick questions. Any recommendations which have inspired you recently?

I'm great to be here in Singapore and honestly I get my inspiration like I said before from meeting so many new diverse people. Every time I go back to Airbus, I have so many ideas. You know that Airbus is a super company. We know what we have, we know our challenges,

But there's so many other things you can learn, which is like reading 20 books, 30 books in one week when you have this session. I agree with you with that. It's so fascinating for me to listen in. Yesterday, we had a super session, which was done by another star on the future role and how should Singapore develop. And I was just listening in and learning so much about the ecosystem in Singapore, which I didn't know. And

That's the one thing. And the second thing is these insightful sessions, these discussions, but as well, I have a passion for people. And be it the Airbus people and the outside people, and I meet with them all the time. And my team knows when I'm on the road, I don't accept any conferences, meetings with Europe or whatever. So I'm there for the people. I hardly even call just if it's important because I want to spend the time with the people.

In the end, you know, this is an inspiration for my job. Being present. Being present and I love my job. So how do my audience find you? Or they can find me through EU, very easily through EU.

Okay, cool. So you can definitely find the podcast everywhere now on YouTube, Spotify, InVideo, and definitely subscribe to our newsletter. And of course, drop me any feedback if you have on the podcast. Mark, many thanks for coming on the show. I just have to give one more shout out on my very first...

Star Dinner, I actually learned so much. And one of the things that I actually learned was airport design. And this really great gentleman, Kasper, who always talk about design. And every time I see him over the last 10 years, we're always talking about what's the next great UI from walking past an airport. So I really thank you for this conversation. And many thanks for coming on. Most welcome. And thank you for the challenging questions. Okay.