ExtraOrdinary: From Stay-at-Home Mom to Global Entrepreneur with Yvon Bock
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So my definition of being fearless is not about no fear, but it's having that courage to face your fear, to conquer whatever adversities that is thrown your way. It is part of entrepreneur journey. We always face with fear of failures, self-doubt. It's how to pick up our courage and face them and use these challenges to become your catalyst for innovation, catalyst for growth, catalyst for your success.

Welcome to Analyze Asia, the premier podcast dedicated to dissecting the pulse of business technology and media in Asia. I'm Bernard Leung. And how does a stay-at-home mom go on to build a product empowering mothers from all over the world to become EY Entrepreneur of the Year?

in 2023. With me today, Yvonne Borg, founder and CEO of Hagen. Congratulations on your new book, Extraordinary, from stay-at-home mom to world-class entrepreneur. Yvonne, welcome to the show.

Hi Bernard, thank you so much for having me. Yes, it's been very interesting. I actually got a pre-copy of your book and I read it through. Your journey is so interesting and I've read how you actually went from home all the way to now building a very interesting business that actually even one of my child who actually have some situations of lactation actually have to use one of these products. So I'm very familiar with the problem that you say but I definitely have to

go forward with this. So I want to start off with the origin story. How did you start your career? Well, it all started after graduation. I joined the finance industry and after a couple of years, I got married and became a mom for the first time. And then I realized actually my life aspiration was to become a full-time stay-at-home mom. So I wanted to pursue that and I took that leap of faith and decided to spend time with my kid and fulfill that dream.

But after a couple of months, I realized that it wasn't as what I actually imagined a stay-at-home mom life would be. And that actually slowly transformed and opportunity came on my lap. And I've decided to step forward to help my dad when he reached out and said that he needs some help in his family business.

And that's where my book actually documented that whole 20 years of that transformation. We're going to talk a little bit more about the book and the journey itself. I think one question was what prompted the return to work that eventually led to the founding of Hagen itself? Actually, being a stay-at-home mom for the first few months, right, I think that was this novelty. I really could spend time, you know, I could really pencil down everything that my child did.

However, that novelty actually eventually wore off and I became very lost. The routine starts to make me lose my identity. From a working woman, I became like, what am I doing here? What exactly is my goal in life and what's the direction? And I was like, really, just not myself anymore. So I think

I think it's very important to have family support. So my dad actually saw that and stepped forward and asked me, you know, hey, how about restarting something that you are passionate about? Why don't you go pursue an interest that might inspire you again, like give you some passion? So I'll take up a course, go learn something while you're also fulfilling your role as a stay-at-home mom. So that was the part where I actually decided

Took up a very interesting course and then eventually that led me to wanting to become an entrepreneur. And my dad opened his door and said, how about joining the family business? Help him first. Joining a family business, right? I always joke, because it's a family business, you start off by like two half days, flexible hour. But it became so flexible that I was working longer hours than I was in a corporate job.

So that's how I actually stepped, that was my first step into my entrepreneurial journey. Just a quick question before we get to the main subject of the day. What lessons from your career journey or even your entrepreneurial journey that you can share some advice with my audience? I think it's very important to identify what is our purpose? What is that purpose?

that spark that passion in us. So for me, it's about helping others. I have this very clear vision. So it started with helping my dad. Then it became evolved to how can I help other mothers like myself? And now I'm very clear with Hagan, it's about helping 100 million mothers around the world. And so with that passion, every day I wake up, my work is

It's my life. My life is my work. So it makes it very fun and exciting every day. So I think passion, purpose is very important. And definitely doing what you love passionately is something that is actually a privilege by itself. So that comes to the main subject of the day. So we talk about Hagan and your new book, Extraordinary, from stay-at-home mom to world-class entrepreneur. I think in preparing this interview, I understand your father established a company called Fitzson.

I think it's OEM for baby products, which actually primarily serve two major clients. Why do you feel that when you joined the business, you thought that maybe Fitson needs to expand and start diversifying its business? The fundamental of running business is about risk management. So coming from a finance industry perspective,

I was very shocked to see how loyal he is. I mean, loyalty is great. However, in business sense, right? Sustainability, business diversification is very important. I wanted to make sure that there is longevity in his business. And the saying goes, cannot put all eggs in one basket. So I started to think of how can I bring in new customers and

and then from contract manufacturing from an OEM that we make exactly to the customer's design to convert it to like a original design manufacturing. We design and white label for customers. So it becomes a few prongs of offerings so that we have

a safety net just in case. So that was the pure intent for the business. And also to remove concentration risk because it was actually only serving two major clients.

and there needs to be some version of diversifying that risk, I suppose. Absolutely, yeah. We call it dependency risk. In case any change of a customer's direction or management or even M&A, the entire portfolio can totally derail. So it's very important. How did working at Fitson prepare you for launching your brand, Hagen? Joining my family business actually is...

I would say is the most exciting, challenging, yet fulfilling part of my career. You know, if you join an NMC or a very established company, our roles are very specialized and it's kind of like a silo. If you are in a sales and marketing, you kind of just look at

at sales and marketing, you wouldn't understand like the supply chain, the finance side. So having the opportunity to join my dad's business, I actually had a bird's eye view of everything. So from understanding how to find my raw materials to the supply chain, the processes, to even like what are the clients looking for and the costing and everything.

The packaging, the requirements to go international. So these were the little, little nuggets of knowledge that built up my confidence and knowledge to actually step forward to create a brand of our own. I think that being in SME, there's a lot of beauty in it, a lot of wealth and richness in terms of knowledge.

My wife has the same experience working for her family business, but that was eventually sold. As I show, I know the challenges that you have to face in working with family to run a business. So everybody loves transformation, but they hate it.

they hate change. So the rebranding of Fitzen, I think, met with some resistance from long-time employees. I think it remains always the most challenging parts of taking over a family business. Can you elaborate more on the challenges and how you navigate through these challenges in the journey?

Yeah, I mean, thinking back, right, I was just 25 years old, probably not as sensitive as I am now. And I didn't understand or empathize how the old timers felt. So many of the employees, when I joined the family business, they were already serving my dad for like maybe 10 years or more.

But I came in, you know, like that full of passion, full of like, I want to be a change maker. And I came in with a focus that, okay, we need to do rebranding. We need to elevate the company. We need to like do some shakeups. It was so unsettling and uncomfortable for most of them because they had been doing the routine. They were in a comfort zone. Change was necessary. It helped me to really wake everybody up, like to shake it up.

But I kind of like filtered out a lot of people as well. And there was such a huge changeover, to be honest. I think now when I look back, I respect and kudos to how calm my dad was facing this entire like wave, you know, that was going through. And I think a lot of them, the employees those days, right? They felt that the change was happening too fast and they couldn't really identify or understood

Why? They even say things like in Chinese, right? But I went ahead to, because they say signage, like the old signage is like heritage. But for me, it's, hey, if nobody actually understood what this logo is about, we need to change to a logo that people could appreciate and understand by just one glance.

or the name, it must make sense. And so they're like, why? And so this was like all the challenges. I mean, looking back, maybe I could have handled it a little bit differently.

do more of the communication instead of like go straight to the point and get things done. Yeah, I think changes are required and I think it's about what you call parts and parcels of every business given it has been around for more than 10 years and etc. So I think

This is where the most interesting part of the problem. I actually have three kids and unfortunately my first child, I think she had the cleft problem. So the lactation issue was actually one of the very big issues. So that was before Hagen was born. So we found our solution to that. So I have a little bit understanding of what the problem you are trying to solve. Can you explain the backstory of the problem that the Hagen bottle is trying to solve and what prompted you to bring the product to market?

So 20 years ago, when I first became a mom, I realized that there was no product in the market that served a working mother. And I have four children and I breastfed for a total of 10 years. Imagine those days going back to work after my maternity leave was this huge hover set with a pump that is like a huge machine.

then like there were so many parts to just wanting to pump my milk up to bring home to give to my child. It was a very clunky process and there were lack of support 20 years ago in terms of nursing room and all that. Putting the products on my work desk, right, was like very shameful. I felt like there was no dignity for a mom. I have to hide, you know, like go to storeroom to hide. I have to go toilet to pump. I have to like

bag for a meeting appointment slot to just pump in that meeting room. So all this prompted me to say, hey, how about creating a product or ecosystem that integrates with one another?

You can pump, you can store, and you can feed just by changing the top. It was really this North Star, this dream that I have. Just change the top, change the function. I don't need to think of like, oh, bring so many 10 different types of products. So that was the starting point. And of course, one of the very key trigger was my third child.

He was a premature baby. So at birth, he was already apart from me because he had to be protected in the incubator. And I have to really relentlessly pump just to

bring my milk out to get to him. But for premature birth, my milk didn't kick in until a few days later. But his health was at risk. If I don't give him a formula or supplement, he might not survive. So I have to give in and use formula. And then after different methods,

by tubing, by cupping, it all didn't work. And we had to accept that to use a baby teeth to feed him the formula. Well, after he got to a safety mark, unfortunately, he was the only one that refused to latch back on me again. So my full breastfeeding journey, I had went through direct latching, feeding through bottle, just exclusively palm feeding.

All this was just part of a journey that I thought, hey, being a breastfeeding mother can be any form as long as I give my milk to my baby. And I want to avoid that nipple confusion situation that Lucas went through. How can I prevent other mothers feeling this guilt? Because this guilt until today, as I tell you this story,

I feel very sad. Like he's the only baby that refused a mom. So how can I design something that make a working mom feels awesome about being successful at work and at home being a successful mom? So this was all the pain points that accumulated. And I thought, I've got to do something. And I want to make a change. I want to make a difference. Yeah.

in this world? I think before Hagen comes out, I think there is also something called the lactation expert. I remember that process because we have a child that has had the same problem as well. And I think that it's very interesting to actually come up with the actual product to solve this problem. I know the story of Dyson, actually, I think the

about 5,600 over prototypes to get to his vacuum cleaner today, et cetera. So I know the story behind the Hagen bottle apparently underwent, I think about a five-year process of 200 field prototypes. I think it's not easy to do this. So I think maybe curious was what kept you going despite the setbacks. And also I'm sure because your dad has to do the manufacturing, so there will always be concerns why we keep doing this and how...

How do you get to the final product? Well, with that motivation behind my 10 years of the pain points, all that, right? I knew I had to do this. I have this dream. I have this vision that this product got to work. So I think that was that.

Like, okay, I'm not going to let anything push me off the track. There were a lot of naysayers. There were a lot of like challenges. So every time, every time we, we try the prototype, just imagine every time it just didn't form or it formed, it didn't work. It was too tight. It was too loose. Oh my gosh. Like I have to fend off the, the naysayer. And I actually have to also put myself up with the, the failures, you know, like it's okay.

let's stand up again and continue. I think what pushed me forward, right, was the belief. I believe strongly in the design. I believe strongly in how it will transform the world. So with that, it actually kept me going. So to be honest, there were days that I was really out of energy. I was really like, okay,

Is it time to really just say, okay, done, start again. However, people around us, very important. I will check in with my husband, like, am I like just being too stubborn about this, too headstrong about this? And then he's like, no, I think you're on the right track. You're just a little bit closer.

closer just keep going and then my dad also had his doubt because he had to keep iterating right like you think really square can solve the problem how about let's go back to round I'm like no no no just let's go let's just keep it going iteration and every time seeing that it improved by a little bit helped and uh

It's a very unconventional design, to be honest. I really had so much challenges. I'm very thankful when I see the ultimate product that came to what it is today, that when people walk up to me and say that, hey, you know, it really helped me at home. I felt so supported because of your bottle experience.

it was all worth it. Like all the, all the behind the scenes quarrels with my dad, you know, like, I call it like our coffee chats, right? They are all worth it. Like today, me and my dad, we were still laughing at each other, like how, how,

how we saw at that point, you know, like challenges. So it's important to really believe in yourself. Congratulations. And I think this is probably one of those rare stories where, you know, father and daughter come and work on a product together and get it to work. So I think the company Hagan eventually pioneered, I think the world's first patented, I think no school threat

press to close and twist to open. They call it PCTO baby bottle. I think this is really interesting. I think as a parent myself, I understand why you are doing it this way and the issue is this. I think what have you learned from that process of continuously iterating on just one product? So this is actually one of our core values in the company. I say I will always repeat to my team members, iteration over perfection.

Every iteration is a step closer. Every iteration is progress. So never give up. If we have a concept, we have an idea, it is very important to actually just continuously improve on it. I would also say it is about the learning attitude.

iteration is also growth. It's how can we continue to make things better. Well, what you see today is not like when we launched 10 years, 9 years ago, that as it is. We have continued to make little, little changes that probably is invisible to the users, but to us in terms of process, the fine details, the little, little changes

or 0.5 degree kind of changes. Yeah, all these were iterations that we continue to do.

We must not settle. We must continue to see if things are good, how can we make it better or great or outstanding? I think that's very important. I think a lot of people think that just because it's a very good product, there's a lot of implicit things that the product owner has to try to find ways to take it out slowly or trying to make a process so well used by the user that I think they don't see implicitly that this is actually what the product

But I have a question. If I were to rewind your journey back to when you started at Fitzen to develop the Hagen product, what would you have done differently? Very honestly? Mm-hmm.

I wouldn't change anything. Okay. No, it's completely fine with that. Yes. Because I feel that everything happens for a reason. And these are life lessons that happen for you. So I felt that whatever I've gone through, be it that shake up in the company, be it that very stubborn vision of making this work, even though I failed so many times, all this actually made me who I am today.

and make the product to be what it is today i feel that life journey every entrepreneur all our journey right it's meant to be that path that lead us to where we want to go but i won't change anything i actually am thankful for some of the journey itself journey pain painful to be honest

It's painful, but I feel that growing has growing pain. Teething have teething issues. So like a child, this is just part of growing up. So what is the one thing you know about Hagen and the baby products industry that no one else does? Well, this is a very interesting question. Well, I would say, contrary to many popular opinions,

Glass is actually not as environmentally friendly as what people think. Ah, okay. Yes. Do you know that some glass cannot be recycled? And even if they can be, it requires very high energy consumption to do it. And in our industry, baby bottles cannot be shared.

It is a hygiene issue, safety issue, medical issue. So can you imagine the baby bottles that go to waste? That is a very, very interesting point. So I want to come to one very big differentiation. I think you're probably one of the few entrepreneurs I know made it work. There's another very well-known Singaporean entrepreneur who I know doing the semiconductor IoT business and he made it there. I think you probably know Suyan.

from Expressive. But one question is, I think you boldly chose a distributor without prior experience in baby products for the Chinese market. A lot of businesses fail in China for global expansions because there are horror stories of distributors copying the products and IP laws are extremely difficult to enforce. I think I want to start from the story of going into China

the Chinese market. What convinced you that the distributor was the right partner for Hagen? And I think what are the mental models that you, when you go into China, which I think this is a pretty interesting topic for a lot of entrepreneurs out there who's trying to think about going into the second largest

economy in the world? I feel that maybe I use an analogy. Finding the right partner or distributor, distribution partner is like finding a life partner. So sometimes it takes time and sometimes it is also opportunity. And if you see the potential in that person, well, when we met this prospect,

it was also finding a life partner before you get to that step, you have to go out on dates. So we did many meetings. We tried to understand whether there's an alignment in values, in culture, in thinking process. And what's the vision? What does this person look for? And does that

see eye to eye with our business. Are we building a business to last or if their philosophy is building something to sell? Well, for us, it's building a legacy. And that person is looking for something to build towards a legacy. Hey, okay, values align. Then, of course, we say that, you know, then you will go for some road trips together, business trips together and see how this person handles situations.

And of course, it's really like a life partner. I'm very thankful that we managed to find this distributor. It's not about the experience, really. It's really about that vision and what that person really wants to create their company towards. So there was alignment of values, alignment of what would this product do. And because our company is very mission-led, we want to create a difference in the breastfeeding community.

it takes a lot of resources and time to even do this kind of seminars, workshops, just to make changes in that huge environment. That societal change, you know, it's not easy. And the person is like, game on, let's do it. Let's try. Why not? If someone has that tenacity and the passion,

I always feel that let's give it a try. We never know. We don't have a crystal ball to see how this is going to work out. But let's give it a try. If it works, it works. It's like iteration over perfection.

So we're very thankful. And also I would say that because of the preparation as a Singapore company, we have a lot of pioneer brands and companies that shed their pain points of entering the market. We're very thankful that this case studies and also the local cultures prepared me about 10 years ago as a new entrepreneur. Like, okay,

like, okay, how can I be respectful? How can I adapt to their culture and understand their way of working? I'll give you a funny story. So prior to Hagan, right, I didn't know that when you go to a Chinese meeting or you meet someone, right, if they shout your name out very loud, right, they run to you and shout your name, right,

actually it's hospitality I see it's how important you are the more important you are the louder they will greet you and I was like oh I didn't know that so when I realized that was the way I was like okay okay I embraced it and not like oh I'm very Paisie you know that kind I actually I embrace it I welcome it and I try to do the same

And then the dining sitting, there is so much art to who sits where. And when we understood why, it becomes very, people will also appreciate like, oh, you actually respect our culture. Yeah. So mutual respect. So these were little things that I learned along the way. And I'm very, I'm really thankful that they were patient with me, you know, learning along the way. So yeah.

So I'm pretty curious because I think one of the things that you also do is getting into the e-commerce part.

of trying to sell the product itself. So I think there was a story in the book and I thought it was pretty interesting. There was a kind of 15 minute pitch to the Alibaba's head buyer in Hagen's expansion into China. How did you secure that opportunity? And what was the results after doing that? I think that's probably getting into Tmall because that's their sort of premium product e-commerce opportunity. Yes.

Yeah. So I will say credit goes to my Chinese distributor for scoring that chance to even meet with the head buyer.

So in the tech company, right, time is like precious. And 15 minutes, we have to give it all. And I prepared like, wow, diligently a 50-page corporate deck. And then at that point, right, even though as a Singaporean, I'm effectively bilingual, I hardly use Mandarin as the corporate language. I was like...

Really jam, jam, strawberry jam. I tell you, it was so awkward to present and I couldn't come up with all the commerce terms. And I've decided just go with my story. And I'm like, okay, guys, just let me tell you my story. And I went on and I think that was my best decision ever.

on that day and they actually resonated with my story, my vision. And it's not about the product features and all. It's actually what is your product benefiting the consumers? How can they help me achieve this vision as a platform?

So that actually set us up for a lot of opportunities and success. And I think how it went about, I will leave your audience to read my book. Yeah, I had a pretty interesting read. I was like, yeah, I think I didn't understand this because I used to deal with Alibaba from Singapore. So we had a pretty good understanding of their business. But I think the thing that I think a lot of people

So specifically for product makers like yourself, where you want to pitch to just get that product into that, it's not a very simple task. It's actually a make or break moment because of the distribution that will come with that as well. Absolutely. Yeah. One of the key traits of how you take the product

out of Singapore into a major market like China. So you went a great lengths, I think, to sort of establish presence, strong presence in China, including, I think, you do live stream events, maybe even conducting breastfeeding seminars. How does these product marketing efforts actually help to contribute to Hagen's success in those markets?

in the market like China. So when we first entered China, they told me about this live stream. I have no clue what is a live stream. Today it's very popular in this part of the world too. Yes, yeah. Can you imagine nine years ago? I don't know, like, why am I talking to the phone? And then they had this stage, right? There were no audience.

but just many cameras looking at you. I was like, what's going on and how do I present? And so go with the flow. And I thought just, well, you know, how big a mistake can it be? But it was nerve wracking because I had 13 million live viewers. 13 million. That's like huge, right? I'm like, okay, with my Singaporean Mandarin, I must make this work. But

Since the day, try my best, just do it. And it's very important because it's actually live information getting to your audience. And that opportunity is like TVC, you know, it's getting that product awareness, brand awareness out to my consumers. And in a Chinese speaking society audience, right? I think it was doubly hard.

but equally exciting for me. How can I actually express myself or through animated movements and demonstration of the product, bring it across to the consumer? How it works. So it actually made me think even harder. I didn't take it for granted. So think of jingles and think of things that can repeat very naturally.

Then we, from the onset, wanted to make a change, wanted to create this movement of breastfeeding advocacy in China. The family bonding and how raising a child requires more than just a bottle. Marketing is very important and storytelling is so important. It really transformed the impression because people don't remember who you are, what you say or what the product is, but people remember how you make them feel.

So we wanted to empower women. We wanted to empower the mothers to let them know that we are here supporting you. And if you someone understand them. So that was my role on live streaming. And because of that, I adopt a very different approach from selling products. I was really just speaking from a woman to woman, a working mom to a working mom.

And then that actually got us to a rolling success as well. And also not selling the product, just basically really focused on trying to solve the problem and how to solve the problem. I think that's also one of the things I capture from that passion, the way how we talk about the whole process itself. So I'm going to ask you a few very quick questions and then you tell me what you think. So what is the one thing in your industry or any technological shifts that changed your mind in the last 12 months?

AI? Yeah. Honestly, I love AI. I think AI has brought so much knowledge and so much advancement in such a short period of time.

And I think the future is huge. The future that we can do products that connect with AI is going to help even more people at a much more efficient and effective way. Most importantly is how can we use AI responsibly? I think that is

the part that I am most concerned about or look out for. But I'm fascinated with AI. So you're definitely going to use AI in whatever you're going to be doing then? Absolutely. Okay. So what would be your advice to future entrepreneurs who undergo very similar journey like yours? I think to be fearless.

So my definition of being fearless is not about no fear, but it's having that courage to face your fear, to conquer whatever adversities that is thrown your way. You know, it is part of entrepreneur journey. We always face with fear of failures, self-doubt,

is how to pick up our courage and face them and use these challenges to become your catalyst for innovation, catalyst for growth, catalyst for your success. So I would really strongly remind. And I actually had this Nirvana moment while learning how to ski two years ago. Skiing at this age is amazing.

It's like entrepreneurship taking the leap of faith. I couldn't get down the slope. I was having so much fear of like, maybe I'll fly off the cliff. I will tumble down, et cetera. And then, you know, embarrassment if I fall off. So this was really like an entrepreneurship, right? And then my coach actually so nicely put like, Yvonne, if you never start,

If you don't even put your ski down to start, how do you know what is ahead of you? And you don't give yourself a chance to maneuver, to actually see the perspective, to even try something new. So, and just try because falling down and standing back up again is your way to learn.

So I was like, wow, this is such a great business learning, you know, and reminded me after like running the business for almost a decade, like, yeah, entrepreneurship is about being fearless.

I like that comment and I'm going to have the follow-up question. So it came from a story. Recently, I had a dinner with a healthcare CEO and his wife and we all both have children. And one of the key things his wife pointed out to me, and I think this is something between us as Singaporeans, there is this fear of failure in a lot of our kids, but not just in that. So I think this is a question that I saw very curious to ask you. How do you think we can teach healthcare

kids a fear of failure. I'll use a very example. In Singapore, apparently, you have to go whether it's gold chess or international chess. Singaporean kids are very reluctant to play against the top grandmasters. Whereas in Shanghai, I think you've been to China, you know, it's like everyone is just lining up to play against the grandmaster without fear and without, you know, being lost of faith. How do you think we can translate that to children from your point of view? I always advocate

Having fun at school, having fun, having social time at school is more important than ultimately what's the results. Results are important, but results is actually a bonus after the process. So,

Fear, right? Actually, or advocating the ability to accept failures or even want to try. It's about... From small, right? When my kid fall down, I will actually not run forward to lift the kid up. I will actually say, 自己跌倒,自己爬。 So, try, try, stand up. Then after that, just...

sweep off the sand and say, hey, great job. You stood up again. And so it actually make them feel like, oh, actually falling down is not so embarrassing. Yeah. Likewise, I try to lead as a role model. When I did something wrong,

not up to par or I failed at something, like even the product, I will actually accept it and I will like, okay, what did this failed task or a decision actually taught me? And guys, how can we learn from this and make it better next time or avoid this and make it better next time? So it has to also be like we lead as a role model for our children, our team, how we actually handle failures

really would have this cascading effect, ripple effect to the people around us. Thank you so much for the advice. Yeah. I hope that helps. Yeah, that helps. So what's the one question that you wish more people would ask you about, Kagan?

Well, I really, really do hope people will ask, how is Hagen advocating for breastfeeding when you are selling baby bottles? Oh, then I'm going to ask you that question now. Yeah. You know, actually, I feel very misunderstood because a lot of people will actually say that, hey, you know, this is a contradiction.

But for me, I never see it as a contradiction and I can't help but say that. Imagine as a mom, as a modern mom, we have to juggle mom responsibilities, our work, our social life. How do we juggle? Everyone keeps asking, how do we juggle and how do we have it all?

And some moms actually felt so guilty. They decided that it's either having breast milk or no. You know, that either or. And some even go into depression feeling that they are not a good mom. So why do we have to be so hard on the modern moms, right? So Hagan, when I first started it, is really how to help and enable moms to pursue their dreams, their personal career goals,

pursue their success, their own definition of success being a mom and their social life. We still have friends. We still want to hang out. We still want to go clubbing. We still want to get out. You know, how to juggle it all. And so,

I hope that when people ask me this question, I really have the opportunity to say, hey guys, we have to change the stigma of breast versus bottle. This got to change. It should be breast and bottle. So it doesn't matter where you are feeding directly with your breast or a bottle, so long you can give your milk

Whether one day, one month, one year, you are a breastfeeding champion. So this is the voice and the movement I hope to advocate and champion breastfeeding for women out there in the world. My traditional closing question, what does great look like for Hagan in the future?

For Hagan, it's not about the number of bottles we sell. It's really about how many mothers we can help or serve around the world. And my goal is to serve more than 100 million mothers around the world. And my goal is also to get to the 35 jurisdictions that we have identified from very day zero, day one, that we want to be around the world, to be there, to empower, to serve and to help.

So Yvonne, I wish you all the success to get to all the 35 other jurisdictions that you want to be. And also congratulations on the new book. Definitely all of you can find it in Kinokuniya Bookstore or even Amazon Bookstore as well, which I used to work there as well. In closing up, two very quick questions. Any recommendations that have inspired you recently? On the flight recently, I actually watched Who I Am by Celine Dion. It's a very moving documentary about Celine Dion's life.

Words cannot describe how touched or how impactful that movie was for me. Please watch it because I think to see a star, a global idol who started at 14 years old and how she went all the way up to the pedestal and then come all the way down and lost her gift of voice and then to struggle to never give up.

to really just struggle through all her pain, physical pain and challenges and the mental strength that she can today, you know, this year, stood on a global stage to sing for the Olympics.

Again, for me, this is phenomenal. She's such an inspiration and cherish every day, cherish her health and continue to uplift people around us, be the positive light for people around us. And how do my audience find you? LinkedIn, your website? Yes, very,

easy it's all Yvonne Borg one word you can find me on LinkedIn you can find me on Instagram and I do have a website yvonneborg.com where they can also find my book so I would love to continue to stay connected with your audience please support the book and also the Hagen products thank you

And definitely you can find this podcast anywhere, now totally on YouTube and of course Spotify as well. And of course, we're going to publish the transcript now either in our LinkedIn newsletter or main site. So Yvonne, many thanks for coming on the show and sharing your journey and the whole story about how to even expand to China. So I look forward to hear from you again. Thank you, Bernard. Thank you very much.