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It's hard being a teenager in love. The hormones are raging, the parents are parenting, and the pressure is on to figure out life after senior year. Judy Blume tackled this in her 1975 novel Forever, and now it's been adapted and reconceived of a striking new Netflix series centering on a pair of black high schoolers. It's the latest from legendary showrunner Mara Brock-Akeel, who's known for creating beloved shows like Girlfriends and Being Mary Jane.
and it thoughtfully captures the pangs and joys of young romance in a modern context. I'm Stephen Thompson. And I'm Aisha Harris, and today we're talking about Forever on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.
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Joining us today is B.A. Parker. She's one of the hosts of NPR's Code Switch podcast. Hello, Parker. Hello. Great to have you. Also joining us is NPR producer Corey Antonio Rose. Hello, Corey Antonio. Hey, just got my phone privileges back. Ooh. Congratulations. Congratulations. It's rough out there when you don't have your phone. It's crazy. By the way, thank you all for unblocking me. You're welcome. You're welcome. You put in a great effort for us to unblock you.
Well, Forever is set in LA and opens on New Year's Eve 2017. At a party, two teens reconnect after not having seen each other for years and begin an intense, messy romance.
Lovey Simone plays Keisha, a book-smart track star who lives with her single mom in Inglewood and dreams of going to Howard University. Michael Cooper Jr. plays Justin. He comes from a more privileged background and is a decent enough basketball player, but he's been diagnosed with ADHD and struggles with finding direction. During their junior and senior years, they try to carve out their own identities together as well as apart.
And this is a reimagining of a Judy Blume book. So yes, sex will come up during our conversation. Forever is streaming on Netflix. And Corey Antonio, I'm going to start with you. As I mentioned before we started taping, you are our youngest person here. And since this is a YA show,
teen show in a way you I wanted to hear your perspective first and and what you took away from forever so give me your your first impressions here definitely I mean while I am the youngest I did grow up with some of these older Mara Brock Akil shows like Girlfriends I think
being Mary Jane. And so Mara, girl, you still got it. You still got it. I am in my mid-20s and even though 2018, when I think about it, it doesn't feel like that long ago. I was not expecting to be transported into this world of 2018 in the way that I was. I thought that
Even though in the beginning, a lot of those references, a lot of the soundtrack, some of the dialogue, it was very heavy handed, 2018, bolded, underlined and, you know, italicized. In the end, I think the effect was that it ended up creating a world that I wasn't thinking about.
The pandemic or what might happen, I was really wrapped up in the story and the time that they were living in. And it took me back in a real nice way. There are moments in the relationship between child and parent that may feel small in your memory or as they happen that in the show, she finds a really good way to add weight to them and give them narrative tension.
Yeah. Lovey's a star. She gave me Elizabeth Bennett meets Rita Watson in Sister Act 2. I know that's right. I know that's right. I'm definitely down for more Mara stories like this. Yes, yes, yes. I also love that you mentioned, you know, it is set between, you know, 2018, 2019. That seems like a very interesting choice because of the way they're talking about, you know, going off to college. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, you don't know what's on the horizon for 2020. Oh, you're so doomed. Don't go. Don't go.
It was something I noticed. I was like, oh my goodness, class of 2019. You know what's really great for kids with ADHD? Zoom classes. Poor Justin, poor Justin. But Parker, I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Oh my gosh. I thought it was absolutely lovely. I mean, growing up,
I was, you know, like a Dawson's Creek kid. And, like, Forever is, like, very... How things have evolved in 25 years. Like, direct, frank conversation and, like, evolution. Like, an honest evolution of sex between young people. I didn't grow up with...
reading Judy Blume as some people did but I did read the book for a banned book series because like it's Judy Blume but like yeah they will try to ban you if you even mention sex seeing that kind of like evolution and seeing this kind of conversation between like like a really like tender love story between like young black people shouldn't feel like a novelty
But it kind of bums me out that it has to be someone else's IP for it to become a story that Netflix would pursue. But the fact that we have this tender, soft L.A. black love story. I think of that episode of Insecure with...
Issa and Lawrence walking through the city or Barry Jenkins' Medicine for Melancholy. These kind of beautiful stories of tenderness that I didn't realize I had missed growing up. It's really nice to see. To that point about it feeling so...
novel in a way. Again, we've already said this, but Mara Brock Akil, she is a veteran. She has been here and she's been doing this and her shows have been repeatedly successful. I guess I have not read the book. This is one of the Judy Blume books that kind of slipped by me when I was a kid. It was carefully hidden from you. That's a better way to put it. Yes, it was kept from me, I guess, by banned book lists. But it
It's my understanding that this is kind of just very different. Like it is the IP. It's very different. There's no way it couldn't be. It's like it's 50 years later since that book has come out. Now, you know, social media, all of these things, it's a whole different world. Before I get into my thoughts, Stephen, I know you read the book when you were 13, you said. Yeah, I said 13 or 14, something like that.
Okay, so how did this strike you as an adaptation of the book? Well, I think if you look at it like an adaptation of the 1975 novel, you're not going to get what you think you're going to get, and you're going to spend a lot of this show being distracted by that. I definitely was. I was expecting far more echoes of the novel than there are. I mean, there are very, very few similarities between the book and this show. In both the book and the show, he –
names his genitalia Ralph. There are a couple of little nods here and there in character names. But otherwise, other than the fact that it's kind of this teen coming of age story, there's virtually nothing in common between the two. As such, I think it's important to think about this show as what it is, where the Judy Blume novel is kind of a Trojan horse, presumably to get Netflix to pick up this show and to attract audiences to this show. But this is its own story.
As such, I agree with everything Parker said and everything Corey Antonio said about, like, this is an extremely gifted storyteller at work here. These two leads have really nice chemistry. We haven't gotten too much into the parents yet, but the performances by the various parents, particularly Wood Harris as Justin's father, is an absolutely electrifying presence on screen. Every time he shows up, you look up.
That said, I think there are some structural issues with this show that I found frustrating. I found the windup way too slow. I thought the first three episodes is this kind of endless series of romantic misunderstandings and like,
very foolish teenage decisions to block the person you're mad at from your phone. That's called being a teenager, Steven. I know, my God. But Parker, they go back to that well over and over and over again. And you really get this like, get,
To the romance. Yeah. And then like late in the series, not giving anything really away here, there's a lot of stuff that is reduced to this montage of Instagram photos where you're like, this is where all the romance is happening. Show me that. I don't need their endless fighting and their endless breaking up and blocking each other. So I found kind of the shape of this show a little mystifying, even as I was admiring all
all these different components of it from the chemistry of the leads to the, the way these parents are presented to the music on the soundtrack, which is just consistently gorgeous. Yeah. Took me back in the worst way. You haven't even been listening to moon river for like the past week. It was normal girl SZA for me. I was like, wait, we're really back.
Yeah. No, Stephen, I kind of have the same issues as you did. For me, this was an experience of like, this is far too real. I love how realistic pretty much everything about this feels from the way that Justin is sort of shaped and formed. And it's just like this very kind of
I, oh my gosh, I've known so many boys slash young men like this who are like just so impulsive and like get really fixated on one person, one thing that they are obsessed with. And then that takes precedence over everything. And I love the way that's kind of unfolded through the relationship that he has with Keisha. But it did feel as though that realness of Keisha
okay, we're back together. And then two days later, we're broken up and we're blocking. And then there's like, sort of not comedy of errors, but like just people talking at each other or missing each other for various things. Misconnections. Misconnections. Exactly. Like it wasn't until the latter half of the season, like the last four episodes where it really started to like form for me. And I think maybe if you had just like
trimmed it down to six episodes instead of eight. Oh, six at most. Because each episode is also like between 40 and almost an hour long, generally speaking. So it's like, this is a lot of time and a lot of time spent with these characters. The other thing is that like for me, it was shocking to me that there weren't really any side characters who get like their own. The friends really have one characteristic each. They're supportive. And that's their characteristic. Right, right. That's all you really need.
I don't know. At least on like Dawson's Creek or like any sort of teen show, you're following more than two characters. Like they have their own storylines to some extent. And Justin and Keisha are usually in one or the other scenes. It's rarely anyone else, you know, except for the parents sometimes.
I felt if we were going to go that long, we should have a little bit more interaction with other characters on their own journeys. But, I mean, yes, we've talked about Wood Harris, who plays Eric, Justin's dad. So many great moments. Karen Pittman as Dawn. Oof.
His mother. Can we talk about it? Let's talk about it. It's interesting because you're pointing out like the main thing is like Justin and Keisha, Justin and Keisha. But I got this beautiful side story about the relationship between Justin and Dawn. Yes. Mother and firstborn son. Oh, come in. Justin. Hey. Hey. Can you turn that off? Please? Please?
It's that sly little, can you turn that off? It says so much about her philosophy about the kind of house that she wants to run. She found ways to find things in the modern experience that I remember going through with my own mother and make it feel like, oh, this is actually a milestone in these two people's relationship. Yes, yes. One of my favorite things about her is the way that she's just really excited at first that Keisha is Black. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
That's all you had to say. Keisha from JTD? Yeah, yes. That's the girl? That's the girl. And then, like, they find ways for Justin to exploit her desire for him to date someone black. Yes. Yes. Look, I can't say that I haven't been there. Myself.
Yes, it is real. It is so real. And it's something so rarely seen on TV that you see a community come together behind the pursuit of Black love. And it's not wrapped up in some huge drug cartel fantasy. Right, exactly. Yeah. The part of the show has this kind of narrative tension of like,
Like something bad is going to loom, is going to happen. And then it doesn't. It's like Karen Pittman's character is like, you know, you're a black boy and you're driving down the street and you're going to like, you need to be careful to all these talks. And the cops come behind him and then nothing happens. Yeah. And I was like, oh, thank God. And I was like, oh, there's like this sex.
tape situation. But outside of the trauma past tense, it wasn't going to impact her future. There was all these kind of, not red herrings, but these things that were being dropped in. And there's a fear, a weariness that, oh, this is going to be that show. And it didn't. I'm so glad, Parker, that you brought that up because it was really a reminder to me watching this show. Like, wow, I've seen...
A really disproportionately high percentage of TV shows about Black people involve police violence. Yeah. That the way this show kind of plays around with that threat in the background made me so incredibly queasy. Kind of exploit that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of its own genre at this point. I think the way this show handles it is really smart because that fear that Don, his mother, has...
It's tied to her entire relationship with Justin. It's not just that she's like fearful of him as a young black man going out to drive once he gets a car and like driving by himself. She's also like fearful of his future. Like she's pressuring him to like apply to Northwestern. She was giving me a tummy ache. Yeah, she's very stressful. And it's like they do kind of pit her and Eric, his dad, a conversation.
kind of against it. He's like the chill, like he's having very frank conversations about sex. He's encouraging him, like, here's money to go to CVS and get yourself some condoms. Like, I want to make sure you know what you're doing and you don't bring any babies around here. And I love that aspect of it. You mentioned the sex video, Parker, and I do want to clarify for those who may not have watched the show, just to kind of set that up, that involves Keisha. We learn about it in the first episode and then it kind of
looms over the entire series. She, with a previous boyfriend, made a video and the boyfriend, the ex, sent it out and everyone around school heard about it. And that also looms over. But first of all, it's a very modern thing that Judy Blume never would have even thought about in 1975. That tension is carried into her relationship with Shelley, her mom, who's played by Zosia Rockmore, who
Love her, but I was kind of surprised. I was like, you're already playing the mom to a teenager, Socha? What? I know. I mean, granted, they do say she had her young, so sure. Keisha doesn't want to tell her mother, and Justin is insisting. And I loved that because it was such a progressive way. Justin, for all of his faults, he is still very, if not self-aware, he's aware of her and how she should react.
and he keeps telling her, like, you need to tell your mom. Like, you're carrying this weight and it's hurting you. And I loved that aspect of it. I really loved that they gave, I don't know, for all of the, I think the current discussions about, like, the male loneliness epidemic and all these kind of things where you have, like, this emotionally attuned young Black man who's, like,
trying to figure out his stuff and sometimes he may miss the mark and you can see him like trying to send a text that's like really heartfelt and he's like then gives like monosyllabic text instead like which is such like a teenage boy thing and like he is like
figuring things out and i thought that was really smart i also appreciated that they had that character had clearly received some sort of training in negotiating consent yes there is an early sex scene between them in which as clumsy as he is and as inexperienced as he is he is like asking her along the way is this okay he's checking in with her regularly and first of all just
I really appreciated the modeling of that consent and also how sexy it was as kind of really the only sexy thing that is happening between two clumsy people. I found really, really sweet and I was delighted to see that on screen. The moments of intimacy in the show, I think, leaned a lot towards Keisha having a lot of agency and Keisha having a lot of say in the scene, which I think contrasts very well with like
the whole situation and scenario with the sex tape and how it unfolded. And so it was a nice arc to see her gain her confidence and sort of find her, both of them find their groove together in the vineyard. That Martha's Vineyard section, I've gone there once in my life. I was not one of those people who ever, who does that every year, but I was just like, oh, this is, this is another way that we get some blackness in the show. The oak bluffs. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay, I will say, I did feel like there may have been a blind spot in, like, class discussion. Yeah.
And just like the fact that, you know, Justin and his family, like we see how they're living in this very nice house with a pool. They go in the Martha's Vineyard. I want their pool. Right? Oh my gosh. And then you have Keisha and her mom living in this apartment and the mom can't. And trying to make ends meet, I felt like Karen Pittman's character had like a certain blind spot, like an elitistness to her that she couldn't really fully express.
empathize like what Keisha and her family's situation was. I felt like a frustration and like why is she not getting that like the way that she parents is different than this other parent and why isn't it like she trying to like figure that out? It's especially frustrating given that like this money it's not like the money has been in their family for generations and generations. I'm saying they knew money
Thank you. I didn't want to be rude, but it is new money. This is still very new. And, you know, his dad is a chef. He's an accomplished chef. I can see that frustration, Parker. I also think...
Somehow that felt real. I don't know if the show itself could have done more to sort of probe those questions, but I do think that tension is sort of borne out in like, especially the conversations that are had about trying to go to someplace like Northwestern versus going to an HBCU. There's always Howard. How is it always Howard? There are other HBCUs. It's the only one anyone knows. Like, he's not Black. I don't know.
I mean, yeah, you I mean, you would even think like Morehouse would come out more often, but whatever or Spellman. But that tension between the haves and the have less was really interesting to see. There is a lovely moment between Dawn and Shelley, the two moms, like where, you know, they are talking. We at least get a glimmer of Dawn kind of.
giving of herself and being like, I'm here for you in an emotional way, if not like fully understanding why like,
their decisions might be different. Like what they choose might be different. And it's establishing something really important to have come up in a teen show like this, which is that the parents all have inner lives as well. And the parents are trying to navigate this stuff just as clumsily as their kids in a lot of ways. And I did think that was a beautiful scene. I really enjoyed pretty much any time a parent was talking to another parent, even if I found one of the parents, Dawn, incredibly exasperating. Yeah.
The way she talks about Keisha sometimes, oh my goodness. At one point she calls her a heifer. That heifer? I was like...
That is a very honest mom talk. I'm not going to lie. I've heard my mom say that. Still, I was like, oh my goodness, she's getting real. I think, but that's, I think Mara's gift is finding those little things, those little accent marks that don't really strike you as important in the moment. But then you hear it in a show, you hear it in this context with these characters and you're like, oh, wow, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,
I really do miss when somebody calls somebody a heifer. I know what that means. I know what that feels. I know the weight that carries. Well, you should definitely let us know what you think about Forever. Find us at Facebook.com slash PCHH. That brings us to the end of our show. B.A. Parker, Corey Antonio Rose, and Stephen Thompson, thanks so much for being here. Thank you. Thank you for having us. Thank you.
And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org slash happy hour or visit the link in our show notes.
This episode was produced by Hafsa Fathima and Liz Metzger and edited by Jessica Reedy and Mike Katzen. Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, and we'll see you all next time.
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