Episode 33: 理科生讲故事
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大家好,欢迎收听 HiHattingFruits,跳一跳摘到的果子。 我是朱怡。 我是刘佳。 今天我们想讲的话题是关于讲故事。 朱怡本身是一个讲故事的人,她是编剧啦。 但是今天我们想讲的不是朱怡讲的那一类故事, 而是我作为天体物理研究员, 或者我们在科研界工作的人,喜欢讲的故事。 嗯。

嗯,因为我一直很爱听你讲故事嘛,所以就一直缠着你讲故事。 以前因为错过了我是月亮在纽约的演出,在中国的演出我又去不了,我就逼着你在那里躺在那里晚上跟我聊天。

So we both

因为我们两个真是一个愿打一个愿挨。 但是我发现我也很喜欢讲故事, 虽然我讲得很烂,因为... 你讲得很好啊。 谢谢。 但是我也有可能是受你的影响, 因为我发现我现在在写论文的时候,

普通来说写论文,你就说把自己的想法写一下,然后把你的实验经历写一下,然后结果再写出来就行了。 可是我发现我在写论文的时候是用讲故事的形态在写,就是说哦,那大家平常...

我会发现我看以前的论文可能

七八十年代的论文, 大家都是用小故事写的。 哦,真的吗? 就一两页就写完了。 而且他写的那种方法是, 哎呀,我觉得应该这个行吧, 然后我就这样算了算, 感觉差不多行, 我觉得应该就行了, 就是也不是很精密的。 而且很多细节他们也去掉了。 但是现在的论文就变得很复杂了, 就要写。 为什么会有这个变化? 因为,

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所以大家为了更容易拿钱,就把所有的系列都写进去。 可能现在要求也更严格了,因为大家需要可复制性。 像以前那种论文根本就复制不出来呀。 但是现在论文你看它几页纸,然后就可以做出一样的结果嘛。 所以其实以前那种写法更容易蒙混在这个行业里面,现在反而更不容易混。 如果就是... 但就变得越来越无聊了。 也是,都有好有不好。

So you combined two kinds of makeup. I'm still struggling because

想要把论文写得有趣也还蛮难的。 但是我想先讲一下, 就是在我开始做科研之前, 我觉得写论文或者做科研应该是怎样的哦。 因为在小时候, 老师上语文课讲故事的时候, 就说有个科学家他做科研很努力啊, 一直在房间里工作工作工作, 然后出来刷了一次牙, 然后又回去工作, 然后工作完就已经忘了自己晚上已经刷牙, 就又刷了一遍。

So I don't know, I don't remember which scientist's story was told in detail. But what impressed me the most was brushing my teeth twice. And at that time, I was a little bit of a pervert. The teacher said, oh, this person is too busy. Busy to forget his daily life. Then my impression became, brushing your teeth twice at night can make you a scientist. So at that time, my impression of doing science was very boring, very complicated. I was very self-conscious in life. Yes.

影視作品裡面講科學家的這種刻板印象, 科學狂人,科學怪人, 就都是有點生活不能自理。 但是與此同時,我們藝術界也好不到哪裡去。

The image of an artist is also very... It's very messy. Yes, it's also crazy, messy, life can't be self-reliant, emotional instability. And then maybe not brush teeth twice, but maybe do some other sacred things. Really, I think artists and scientists are really... It seems that it is easy to make up the general impression. But what do you think in fact? Do you think you artists are messy, look like artists, and do art well? No.

也不是不好吧 就是我觉得首先这样的人没有那么多 真的很少很少 因为你要是想在这个艺术行业 就它毕竟怎么样都是个行业嘛 你想要在里面长期的职业性的生存下来

首先很多事情你都不能太乱啊, 你都得该生的要去生, 然后该认识的人你要去好好地去跟人家交往啊, 然后对你自己的作品你要知道怎么样去呈现, 怎么样去 present 自己啊什么的, 这些都是需要理性的, 然后包括 deadline, 你要敢不能违反合同啊什么的, 就如果你真的是一个很疯狂的人, 那可能...

可是大家为什么就喜欢给

艺术家或者科学家搞一个这样的死板印象。 我觉得是因为,就是室友这样的人,然后这样的人呢? 室友其中几个,然后让大家印象很深刻,然后之后的人就... 这些故事就更容易传播嘛。 你说一个非常自我管理能力很强的,勤奋的,理性的,一个家庭和睦的艺术家, 那他的故事也没什么可以说来说去的嘛,那一个风,

哇 好厉害 但是我后来会有朋友还问我

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但是她就很厉害很厉害啊。 可是... 对,那就跟你当时听那个故事的感受一样嘛, 就是忘记了那个科学家做什么, 只记得人家刷牙刷两遍。 对。 这个就是霍金给大部分人的印象吧。 嗯,也是让她有故事性啊。 对。 但我又觉得...

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But what we just talked about is all about the stories of scientists. This is different from the small stories used in science and science fiction as examples and parables. Yes, I think what we are focusing on today is how scientists tell stories, not the stories of scientists. I'm thinking, for example, the most classic is Newton and the apple. If you talk about the universe, you will definitely talk about Newton and the apple.

So is this story real? When I first heard it, I didn't think it was real. Because when Newton smashed the apple, there was a reporter next to him. He said, "I smashed it." And then Newton turned around and said, "I finally figured it out." It's a bit like the Leifeng diary. Do good things secretly, but all have photos. Who is it?

然后我就去八卦上网搜一下,看牛顿被苹果砸这件事情有没有发生,后来发现其实是牛顿在晚年的时候才跟人家说自己对万有引力的推论,他的灵感是从何而来。

然后即使牛顿也不是在砸的那一刻告诉人家的, 他是在 50 多年以后才跟大家说, 而且他说的不是被砸到, 而是看到苹果落地。 所以这个市面上流传的版本完全是经过戏剧化处理的。 是的。 对。

Yes, and even if Newton himself told others that he saw an apple falling to the ground and then thought of this theory, this can also be inferred because he himself is a person with a strong central belief.

Apple is a very meaningful thing in religion, isn't it? Apple has a kind of wisdom or a sense of opening the door to the forbidden. Because in the Edean, after the apple was bitten, Adam and Eve felt shame. It's no longer a pure place.

In Greek mythology, the golden apple of Paris, the origin of the Greek war is that there is a legend that three goddesses took a golden apple to Prince Paris and asked him to choose the most beautiful goddess. They gave the golden apple to the goddess they thought was the most beautiful. Because of this,

Oh?

She was bewitched by the god of love. So she gave the golden apple to the god of love. Then the other two girls were very active. Then the war started. That is to say, this apple is in a mess. It's all different when you make this choice. It's actually like the "Traditional Power". It challenges many religious things before. It's a little bit like... After Eve bit the apple, you will have a different view of the world from now on. Where do you know these stories? I think...

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Right. She must be a celebrity in Beijing. And the apple was just right on top of my head. You know, there's another shock. It's a pretty heavy apple, but it's not like a fallen coconut will make you faint. Is there any other story you like to tell? Oh, right. I remember. What?

I remember something quite interesting. It's the IG Nobel Prize. Do you know about this? I think I've heard of it, but I'm not familiar with it. What is IG? Instagram? No, no, no. You can check it out. The standard of evaluation is that when you hear this research for the first time, you will laugh out loud. After you laugh out loud, you will think about this research for the next week.

然后你只想找你的朋友好好说一说, 就很想告诉别人这个研究。 其实那还是蛮有意思的, 不是讽刺意味的。 对对对, 很有意思的。 比方说, 有一个研究是说, 一个医生, 是医学方面的, 有一个医生去到那种热带的国家, 做旅游, 然后在当地医院, 然后他就想看看当地人, 最多是因为什么毛病去看病。

Then he found out that the most of them were hit by coconut. And he did this research, why are there so many people who were hit by coconut? From high altitude areas, high land, to people who travel at low altitude, and then they saw a tree, and then they felt that it was very good to be cool under the tree, and then they were hit by coconut.

So this award is really a very creative idea of awarding, instead of erasing some stupid ideas from everyone. Not erasing, it is all the awards in it, science, and the economic award, or something. It's all very hard. No prestigious, no fake science, and no funny ones. But just to say

它所研究的東西我們乍一聽會覺得很荒唐, 就是這種東西去研究它幹嘛呀? 就比方說還有一個是說研究為什麼啄木鳥一直啄木不會得腦震盪?

Then you hear it again and you feel it's very unreasonable. What's the point of studying this? But the results they studied are good for preventing human brain tremors. Why? Because they found that the reason why the woodpecker doesn't get a brain tremor is because its brain is tightly wrapped. This is to help them study how the olive ball player got a brain tremor when he was hit. Then how to design their helmets and so on.

I found that all the interesting researches can connect dots. They put things that look different together and then they have some interesting results. I think maybe the dots didn't connect at that time.

and then he is just curious about this world, curious about something that everyone thinks is useless. He feels curious, maybe to the very back, because the research of the olive player is very behind, it is connected with the research of the woodpecker. It's like a lot of basic science, everyone thinks it's useless, but it's very late. I found that it actually promoted a lot of useful research.

其实你让我想起我在开始搞科研一直在挣扎,就是因为还是在刻板印象的影响下,我觉得做研究的人都应该很聪明很聪明很聪明,然后我又觉得我不是很聪明很聪明很聪明,我就在想那...

就是究竟很聰明的人是怎樣工作的,怎樣去做研究的嗎? 然後我經常會跟人聊天,就是我覺得做研究做得很棒的教授啊,或者同事去問他們, 欸你這個 idea 是從哪裡來,你怎麼樣想到這個的?

I had a very impressive conversation with my professor at first. I was studying quantum theory at that time. I couldn't understand a theory. And he said to me, "Can you change a textbook if you don't understand it?"

He didn't explain to me. He said that maybe the way he explained it, the way he told the story wasn't very good. You change someone to explain it to you. Maybe you'll understand. So now I find that if I don't understand something, I just have to keep looking for new explanations, explanations from different people. As long as there is one that suits me, I can understand it. I used to think that stories can be told from different angles. I didn't realize that science can also

哦。

比如我们去看 Fox News。 对对对啊,就是一件事情,你可以从中学到不同的人讲故事和看这个世界的角度嘛。 诶,这个真的很有趣,我想起在我们学物理的人之间,我们会说,如果你对一个理论非常了解的话,你最好就能跟你奶奶讲清楚。 啊?

That's like Bai Zhi Yi. Bai Zhi Yi wrote a poem for Lao Yu to listen to. If Lao Yu could understand it, it would be a good poem. What this means is that if you know a theory very well, you can quickly grasp its core content and find a very, very appropriate metaphor for others to understand. Those who like to describe the scientific concept very, very deeply, I don't think they understand it very well.

Like we said, if you can't explain something clearly, it means you don't understand it well. And I found that most of the good professors in the field of science can explain this to me so that I can understand. And you will find that when we used to do programs related to science, sometimes you asked me some things and I couldn't explain it clearly. It means I didn't learn well at that moment.

But it's also possible that it's because I'm stupid. I'm a basic teacher. Maybe I can understand it if I change to a science student. Or change to someone smarter than me. No, because when Daliang and Gao Fei told you, you all understood it. So I don't think it's your problem, it's my problem.

Anyways

When describing physical phenomena, we connect two things that we don't usually think of. Actually, there is a very small example. I remember when I first started learning astronomy,

I like to ask people why they want to learn astronomy. Because I'm curious about the meaning of life when I learn astronomy. Why do you want to study astronomy? Is it because of me? There is a senior who impressed me. She said she wanted to study astronomy when she was 10 years old. Wow. She said the reason she wanted to study astronomy was because her dad pointed at the sun and said, you know, the sun is also a star. Ah.

Wow, that's a good one.

Good luck for her.

But it also reminds me of another example that is very impressive to me. I think it's a bit difficult to explain, but I still want to try to explain it to you. I was in the quantum field. It's a course I took when I was a graduate student. Generally, his students just graduated from the department and have finished quantum mechanics. Then you have to start learning more advanced theories in the quantum field. Then there is a method called path integral.

- Thought experiment.

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然后从你这里打一束光打到对面去, 让光从硬纸板这两个小缝中间穿过去, 然后打到对面墙上去。 如果在对面墙上你看到的也是两道直线, 跟这个打的缝长得一模一样的话, 那说明光就比较像粒子。

它就一颗一颗过去的嘛,一穿过去,然后就打到对面去,穿过去打到对面去。 但是如果你看到的是有阴暗交接的条纹状,就是阴暗阴暗阴暗阴暗阴暗,就是有点像波浪的。 就说明它是波。 对,那就说明光是像波一样传播的。 结果就看到像波一样传播了,所以我们就知道光是有波的。

但光还有粒子的性质,但这些就是跟我想讲的东西没有什么关系。 所以这就是一个物理上只要学过量子力学的人都知道的一个很经典的叫双缝实验。 但是我们现在在研究生的课堂,老师就想跟我们讲接下来的一个新的想法。

So let's pretend that we are in a physics class in the previous department and the teacher is talking about this classic double-hook experiment. He became a physics student directly. But this time there is a very annoying student under the stage. He asked the teacher, "Teacher, you hit two hooks, what will happen if you hit three hooks?"

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What about the five-pointed phoenix? Six-pointed phoenix, seven-pointed phoenix, eight-pointed phoenix, nine-pointed phoenix. Do you think it's annoying? Do you think you are deliberately disrupting the discipline of the class? When the teacher continues to talk, the student says, "The teacher hasn't finished asking." What if there are two hard drives?

三个印制板,四个印制板。 老师就觉得你这个人很烦啊。 你直接把第一个印制板的可能性叠加, 再叠下第二个,第三个,第四个,第五个,会了吧? 可是这个学生就继续想下去, 他就在想,那如果是有无数个孔, 有无数个印制板, 那不就是等于什么都没有了吗? 对啊,对啊,对啊,对啊。

诶? 是不是? 所以其实我现在面对的墙,或者面对周围的任何一个东西, 我都可以想象成我和比如对面的树之间是有无数个硬质板, 然后但是那个硬质板被打成无数个洞。

- Mind blowing.

哦,原来还可以这样想哦。 然后现在看什么东西都觉得, 哦,原来你不是单纯的直线运动, 而是你是所有路线的叠加, 你是它们的最大化的可能性。

写那种看上去很像论文的论文

就是比较 technical 啊,就是很多专业术语,然后让别人觉得哦,还蛮像样的嘛。 对对对。 对,但到了近期,现在做科研也做了十来年了居然,就觉得哦,对自己的这个很小很小的这个领域有一点点感觉,然后对我们这个方向近期的历史啊,然后现在进展都还蛮了解的,就会觉得哦,写的时候想调皮一些。 嗯嗯嗯嗯。

正文就是像古典文

中间呢就是写到很技术性的东西的时候我就会说 你去看复录的第一章第二章 然后你从那里看到你就可以复制出我的结果 但这里还是把我觉得最精华的东西写进去 这样会让我觉得很爽 因为读正文的时候

最近有个论文

What? What?

It's not a peer-reviewed article in the archive.

It's called preprint. It's a place that you put before we put it in the magazine. But everyone else will see it. I thought it was funny when I saw it that day. I think you can talk about this a little bit. Because I think I've been with you for a long time. I know what this is. Before the post, everyone has a place to put the preprint. It's the version before the post. I think a lot of people who don't do art history don't know this. That's right. Because...

如果你是发到期刊上面的话,很多期刊它是要花钱才能看到的。 但是你的科研研究大部分都是政府啊,大家的税收支持你的。 所以本来就是民众的钱,我们就会觉得科研最好还是公开嘛。 所以我们有个叫 archive 的地方,大家在发到期刊之前,或者在期刊审核之后,可以把自己的...

Foreign

业界其实对这个大家已经争吵了很久。 有的人就觉得当然是要期刊审核嘛, 因为有专业的人在帮你把关。 但是有的人就觉得当然要发到 archive, 发到 preprint 这种公开的地方嘛, 即使没有人审核。

People who think that the book should be reviewed are the same as you think, saying that the quality is higher. But people who are pro-archive think that if you only review one person, you will rely on that person's power to judge. What if this person is very shit? Because sometimes it's really bad people who can't understand. He just said a few words and sent it back to you. It's actually useless.

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So this way, more people can actually be audited. Of course, no one has the obligation to audit you. But if you do something very relevant, you will get more interesting opinions. It's a bit like Wikibank. It's not full-fledged, but everyone can correct it. A little bit. So everyone is now studying a way to find out if it can be posted to the archive and let some people evaluate it together.

And in the journal, you and the referee, the person who is the judge, your communication is all private, it is not visible to the outside world. But if it is in the archive, it is a bit like Twitter, you can see other experts on the Internet. Public forum. Yes, what are the opinions of other experts? This is more transparent, and it may be quite beneficial for research. It's so interesting. Yes, and

It's very funny in archive because publishing a journal is only important to us, the "chicken" Because when you apply for a job, everyone wants to see how many journals you have published But for the kind of professors who have won Nobel Prize, they don't care. Many people only publish archives and don't publish journals at all Because they think journals are useless and they don't need anyone's approval They just want people to see

So they would look at it. And sometimes you would see them quarreling on it. They would say, "Last time this professor sent this and that paper, I don't think it's good." "And this is my thesis." Then they would post a piece. It's kind of like their own diary. It's pretty funny. So cute.

But in the archive,

It's a bit like when we watch a forum and people call them "god" or something. But the "god" in these forums are not necessarily very high social status or really great in their own industry. Will there be two levels of different systems? No, because it's still not discussed now. It's just a post-mortem.

So the degree of activity is irrelevant. It depends on the level. It's the god everywhere. And every year on April 1st, we will have a funny essay. But the essay that was published that day was funny but not scientific. It's just like a funny novel. Its science is true, but it's just ridiculous. Or it's fake.

I didn't see all of them, so I saw some of them, but they were real, but they couldn't be realized. For example, how can aliens in a few billion years go to the universe after everyone has grown up and they can't see each other? How do you know we used to be together?

还有一些是什么如何用中微子来制造反核武器系统,就是那种完全人类目前技术达不到的东西,但是大家开始幻想嘛。 这个也不是所有的人一看就知道是开玩笑的,就是有一些像我这种外行的人,我觉得看你说这个第二个标题,我觉得好像还蛮专业的。

Because it reminds me of a joke that everyone posted in the circle of friends recently. Trump has issued an executive order to stop the earth from moving. To keep China in the dark and the United States in the daytime. So that the Chinese can't go to work and the U.S. production power will be greatly improved. This can defeat us.

And it's funny to hear that. Because Trump issued a lot of executive orders, so they used this to make fun of him. But I found that many people didn't realize it was a joke. Then they would be angry and say, "Why do you want to spread rumors?"

I still can't see it or wear it. Really? It's very similar because it's unpredictable every day. Now I think it's very possible whatever she says. Yes, she asked people to drink white water before. I think this can kill the bacteria. This is also what she said. So tell us how you started telling stories when you were writing a thesis. I think the core of writing a thesis is that you have to have a core idea. Maybe it's the same as writing a story. You have to have a motive.

Oh, yeah, super!

超酷的!超酷的! 很好笑,因为平常大家观测宇宙的时候,我自己也是啦,就是喜欢看那些亮亮的,有很多东西的地方,就是星系啊,星系团啊,有星星的地方嘛。 但是他们这个工作坊研究了就是什么东西都没有的地方。

这个其实很有趣,就有点像你看一杯装了一半水的杯子, 你究竟看它是半满的杯子还是半空的杯子? 其实你看空的看满的都是一样的, 满的地方就是不是空的那个地方。 对对,就是照片的正片负片。 讲起来有点绕口,但是他们研究的就是说, 只看一些空的地方,其实他们有的信息和满的地方的信息也是相当的。

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她说的什么都没有,也不是绝对的什么都没有。 那什么所谓的暗物质,暗能量呢? 那些只是暗而已,但它们又是东西。 所以连那个都没有? 暗物质它其实都是在星系里面, 所以它们不是空,它们只是黑, 也不是黑,它只看不到。 所以这些 void,连这些都没有? 但她说的什么都没有,也只是相对来说比较空而已。 所以我那个时候就去这个工作坊, 首先就像你说的,什么是空? 就是空的定义是什么? 大家还在想要达成

and the same goes for the definition of emptiness. Everyone thinks that this is very empty and wonderful. Others say that it's okay to be more empty. Then they change their mind. They almost thought they were in a Buddhist workshop. A little bit. What is emptiness? Is the design emptiness? After discussing emptiness, they have to say, oh, what is the shape of this empty place? Whether you want to define it with a circle, or with an ellipse, or with an irregular shape to define it,

I think everyone is discussing this. But for me, the most interesting thing is what impact will the medium-sized particles have on the empty space? Because when I was studying medium-sized particles, they were very light particles floating in the universe. But they exist in this kind of empty space. But they have an impact on the shape and size of these space holes. After hearing their introduction to the space hole, I was very excited. I think,

I can study the relationship between neutral and cosmic vacuum. And at that time, I ran a lot of universe simulation. I have a lot of small universe, fake small universe. And then there are a lot of vacuum in my universe. So I can go in and see what happens if there is neutral. And then I did some space vacuuming with some

So

So this is a pretty successful story. Yes, I think it's very interesting. So we talk about stories with one idea, and then go back to calculate and write the program, and then look at the result. Generally speaking, if the result is successful, we will write a paper and publish it. What if it doesn't work? It's gone. Actually, it hasn't worked many times. I think my idea is probably half of the time it doesn't work. And then sometimes,

一个星期就发现,有的时候一个月就发现,有的时候半年才发现不成功。 那这个半年发现不成功,那这个旅程我觉得也是当中很有意义啊。 因为你又不傻,你会走的弯路其他人也会走啊,那你会把你这个不成功记录下来,告诫他人说,啊,这条路大家就不要走了吗? 呵呵。

This is a good question because I actually encountered some of the charts recently and then found that I think there should be some effects. It looks like there is no effect at all. It's completely different from what I imagined. Then I feel quite depressed and then I gave up writing. Because there are actually a lot of writing. It may take a few months or even a year to write.

Then I decided to give up and do other experiments that I thought were more interesting and more effective. But then I went to a school once. After giving my report, we were talking privately. I said I had seen this effect before, but unfortunately I didn't see anything. Then he said, "I saw it two years ago and found it useless."

Then I said, why didn't you write a question? You write it out and tell me I don't have to go this way. Yeah, and then he's the same as me. Actually, oh, but I have so many other things to do. Write this question and then write it down. And then I'll tell you it's useless. That's it.

感觉很浪费时间,所以很多人就选择不写。 对啊,因为我发现... 然后就很多人像我这样就不停地走弯路嘛。 你写成功的理论,成功的实验,你走一条成功的路, 那这个论文写出来是对你有益的。 如果你写失败的话,对你没有益啊,只对别人有益。 那这个时候大家就不想光做这样的事情嘛。 但是我觉得,我猜就是科研界应该,

论文的杂志吗?

Everyone is thinking about what to do. Of course, those very important researches, such as exploring the secret substance, if you don't succeed, everyone will write a paper and ask others not to repeat their experiments. Because the cost is very high, a few million dollars to smash it down, and then it doesn't work.

然后你还让别的人再去做一遍,就是会被要求要把你结果无论怎样都要写出来的。 但是像我们这种可能尝试了一两个星期觉得没啥用,我们就是要看自己判断说值不值得写,就是想不想要给大家做这个公益事情了。 但也有一些...

They will now empty a place saying that if you have some results that are not enough to be published, you can consider to post an article in one page. And this is not reviewed by the same industry. You can just post it directly. As long as there is no error, it can be done. Then everyone can also post the unsuccessful results. But it's actually hard to be seen because there are too many results. How do you want to see those?

-

花太多精力之前已经大概有一个感觉你可以省很多时间。 但是我觉得好像科学的历史上又充满了一些一个东西, 很多很多人都做过了, 就觉得这个肯定是做不出来的, 肯定不行的, 然后三号有一个人给做出来了。 那个可能还是用了新的想法吧。 肯定是有一些小小, 肯定不可能是同样的一模一样的方法做, 然后被他做出来了,这是不大可能的。 嗯嗯嗯。 哎!

然后你问了我,我们录这期最初的原因是我想问你怎么讲故事。 因为我觉得好难哦,对科研,做科研来说,想讲一个故事或者说想做一个 project, 你从头到尾怎样去想 idea,就跟人聊天,然后看最近大家都做了什么, 然后把这个做出来,我觉得还...

蛮有规矩可循的。 对。 但是我看你在那边故事你就躺在床上。 然后第二天醒来就一个故事出来了。 我说你要怎样? 你究竟脑海里在想什么东西? 所以我问你第一个问题是, 故事是来源于生活是真的吗?

I think so, but it's not like you can just live your life. It's not like you go to see something today and you say, "Hey, this can become a story." No, because I think those things are still life. It's to become a story, to be more dramatic, to be more connected. I think it's actually a lot of memories behind your brain. It's triggered in this time. You go to the subjective, to take the initiative to connect them together. You have to think about it. No, it's not lying there.

诶,你会有个小本子把你平常见到的东西都记下来吗? 我没有诶,其实我没有,但是我觉得因为最近想一个故事一直一直想不出来,然后我就会开始记一些零碎的想法。 因为我是相信你经历的所有的事情,大的小的,你记住的或者是你都不记得自己见过的,我觉得都会留在你的大脑里的。

然后编故事的过程就是你被一个东西触发,然后从那个东西出发去想,其实你的大脑后台这个时候就在把那些记忆都联系起来,然后把它们整合成一个故事情式的东西出来。

So what you do when you think of a story is to trigger it, to activate these memories. One way I do it is to take a piece of paper and write a word on it. Just write whatever word you think of. Maybe it's related to the topic I'm thinking of. Or it doesn't matter, but I thought of it at that moment.

然后我就把它们没有任何秩序地 写在那个纸上 因为我相信这个时候 我选择哪个词写在哪个位置 都是有一定原因的嘛 可能我大脑里面觉得 这个感受就是在那个右上角的那个 或者是在中间的更重要的什么 大部分情况下 当一张纸写满的时候 然后我就一直盯着这些词看 我就会开始一个故事渐渐成型 就给你一些刺激嘛 给你一些外来的刺激 而且这些刺激通常都是

-

这个就像是像你是开个会一样,就是像是你提出生产要求。 其实有点像我们写论文一样的嘛。 对,我觉得那个是想不出的。

But the so-called out of box is that your stimulus is something that has nothing to do with this thing. And then these can stimulate your thinking. It seems that the most magical scientific theory is also this kind of out of box stimulus. Just look at things, look at its two-sidedness, just look at the same thing, but see some aspects that others can't see. Then you will suddenly have a new idea. It's a bit like Newton. At that time, he wanted to draw.

She thought that the invisible was sucked in by something heavy. But Einstein thought that it was not. You are not sucking anything in. Everyone is still walking on the straight line. But the whole time and space is twisted. Back to the story you said. The material you wrote in the end, does its momentum have anything to do with your own experience? For example, you experienced this and you feel that it is a bitter star. Will it be easier for her to write your story?

一定要刻骨铭心,首先你肯定是经历过,或者你对一个东西的感受更熟悉,那肯定这个是写得更形象的嘛。 当然也不是说所有经历过的东西,就是因为有一个说法嘛,有一些人就会说,啊我们这一代人,

吃过很多苦,然后去大江南北,什么插队落户什么的。 然后你们这一代人没有什么经历啊,什么什么的。 我觉得这个是不是成为一个好的写作者,编故事的人的充分必要条件呢? 因为每个人的感受力都不一样嘛。 你哪怕去过再多的地方,见过再多的人,打交道什么的, 但是可能你的思考能力和感受能力, 和甚至模仿能力就是这么点嘛。 那你的个人体验也是有限的嘛。

我记得我之前看 Steven Sondheim, 他就说成为一个好的编剧, 有三个条件当中你满足两个就可以成为了。 一个是想象力, 一个是经历, 一个是模仿能力。 就是这个三个里面只要满足两个, 你就可以成为一个好的作家。

這個想像力和精力是很好理解的吧。 但是這個模仿能力指的是, 因為你人你自己只能活一輩子嘛, 你就這一個人嘛。 但是呢,你見過的所有的人, 如果你能夠很快地意識到, 他們是以怎樣的方式說話思維的, 然後你就能夠捕捉他們的 voice, 你能夠寫出他們會說的話, 他們會做的事情, 你可以模仿出他們的 voice, 這個是一個模仿能力。

Because if you don't have this ability to imitate, you can't write different people. Or you can't write them no matter how many people you meet. This is one. Another ability to imitate is... This is very similar to the ability to share feelings. Yes, yes, yes. Is it? Another ability to imitate is the ability to imitate between you and your partner. Because you are a screenwriter, you still need to work with the director, or work with the song. Or you have a screenwriter to write together.

If you're good at imitating, it means you're good at teamwork. You'll understand how your partners see things and how they imagine things. I think this is quite common. You're best at working with people in every industry. Yes. You can help me analyze what you said before. You actually talked to her about Zotan. She wanted to tell a story.

So, let me introduce Zotan to you. He was my mentor when I was studying for my PhD. He applied for a government fund. This government fund needs a part of it for scientific research, and the other part

Anyway, he has a very passionate project. He does double black hole research. So he thought,

How can I tell you the story of the double black hole? He thought about asking the dancer to make a dance Then to act out the double black hole How is it just around the other side first Then it finally became the only black hole in the whole Not bad, not bad, not bad But his result is very funny Generally speaking, if one of them The science part or the engineering part is not passed They will directly block your proposal

And the result she received was that your scientific part was great, but your craft was too bad. Can you delete that craft part? We still decided to give you money. Oh my god, I feel so miserable. Because I remember when I was eating with you guys last time, I think she was so passionate. She really liked her dance project.

and then let me recommend other channels to make this thing out. I really want to tell this story, but why do you think it shouldn't be after watching it? Why can't it? In fact, I think many dancers may be interested in this. I think he shouldn't apply for this kind of government funding. It may also be suitable for everyone. We generally do the public service project differently. I usually propose public service projects, such as

中学里面跟学生讲一下黑洞的原理啊 对我们来说是比较能够好理解的公益吧 对于它这个项目 你也不是很明确大家能看不看得懂 我觉得它跳完这个大家知道是黑洞吗 我觉得它这个其实可以是生艺术项目 我觉得都比较容易进 而不是说生科学界的科普项目 而且我觉得可能很多

舞者会愿意跟他合作。 在听我们节目的里面, 如果有舞者愿意跟大家合作的话, 也可以。 大家可以和我们联系, 然后我们跟你搭桥。 这样又让我想起, 虽然我一直在说我很爱讲故事, 我写论文也是在讲故事, 而且我自己, 我有时候爱给你发, 我在自己公众号写的, 自己做科研的故事。

But every time I help you write a story, you will scold me again. Really, really. I think because of this, we have had a lot of fights. Liu Jia is angry. Why did you say that? I helped you write it, but you scolded me at the end. Yes, because... Okay, let me tell you. Be careful when you think of stories. I often call and ask,

嗯。

Why is it that every time I want to help you write a story, it doesn't work? First of all, what do we see in a story? We see the story and the technical solution of the problem differently. Because the solutions you give are usually the fastest,

最直線型的通向解決方案 就是你非常不喜歡問題的出現 你會想要盡可能讓這個問題消除 但是我們看故事 我們看戲 看電影 我們其實就是看人物在問題中的掙扎 好看的就是他是怎麼掙扎的

He wants to get something, but he can't get it. How does he work hard to get it in the process? What kind of failure? But why does he still have to pay the price? What kind of price did he pay? This is the good thing. If you say that the proposal you proposed is very coincidental and accidental. Because at this time you write a story, you are God. You can set anything for him. Then you set him up. He just touched the key by the door.

等一下

可是可是我觉得在武林就是武侠小说里面经常有个人掉了一个洞里面然后就突然就捡到一本武林秘籍他们不也是爱这样吗 首先跟我给大家解决问题有什么区别首先那些故事里面他之所以会掉下去和他之所以会捡到和那本秘籍为什么会出现在那里他都

这不是完全偶然,他已经扑了很久了,这些扑是和人物的性格有关的,和人物由于这种性格做出的很多人生选择是有关的。 由于蠢,掉进洞里。 不是,就比方说,你说那个什么杨过和小龙女 16 年后在谷底什么又相遇了这种,对吧,听上去是很偶然,很奇迹的,但是那他也是跟他们之间的感情有关的呀。

Okay.

Okay.

这个不可能不是说这个天上劈雷这种不可能, 而是说就是在这个处境当中, 这个主人公由于自身的一些能力啊, 或者他的一些性格上的选择啊, 影响到了对方啊什么什么这些,

其实是编故事的人是反直觉的, 你要去做一些让你自己不舒服的这些设定, 这些编法嘛。 所以你帮我编的时候, 我就觉得就是问题刚刚提出来, 然后就被解决了。 我觉得真的是我们, 我被专业培训到没有办法像你那样思维, 因为对我们来说, 问题就已经...

成千上万的问题存在那里,为什么有暗物质,为什么有暗能量,我抓破头皮就很想解决嘛,就是我们的所有的火力都集中在解决问题上面,问题不需要我们提出,但对于我来说,你编故事就是一直在给自己添堵,就是搞事情,我们要编故事思维是搞事情的思维,对,好辛苦,所以就求你不要再来找我给你编故事了。

我跟你說我找你是因為我想說, 哎呀,我們的思維方式那麼不一樣, 也許你的思維方式可以給我帶一些靈感, 一些啟發哦。 但是並沒有。 但是講到後來, 讓我想起那個時候看人類簡史, The Brief History of Humankind, 我們講了這麼多, 因為我也覺得我很會講故事, 你也很會講故事, 講到後來讓我想起,

以前看人类简史里面 一整本书我其他啥都没记得 就记得人类能够占领全球 就是因为我们很会讲故事 其他的物种他们只能和 能日常打交道的其他的动物

然后可以集成一个 tribe,集成一个部落。 对对对,部落,就是他们能够集合的数量比较小嘛, 只有人类可以通过讲故事,可以通过画大饼。 对,人类只是通过和熟人建立关系的话, 我们最多只能建立大概几十人,一百来人的团队, 然后你想要再集合更大的力量是不可能的, 但是因为人类实在太会讲故事了, 所以你就可以说比如说圣经,

里面有个上帝,大家只要做这个做那个, 你就可以得到 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

所以人类真的是很会讲故事,我们才活到今天。 我突然想到,其实刘娇,我知道你收到很多来信,就大家听了一下这个皮毛以后,然后就觉得说,

This seems to be in line with what I think Then I will write some of my own theories for you Yes, I often receive emails saying I recently found a big bucket of theories, please take a look It's so famous, there are often some Just pat your head Put some scientific things with what Yin and Yang Buddhism and Taoism are connected together I feel like I have seen through the way the universe works I'm also curious if everyone doesn't have to work

然后为什么会想这些,然后,而且我其实最好奇的是,因为这不只是我啦,做我们这一行,做天文的,经常会收到这样的来信,说我发现大一统理论啊,或者我发现了暗物质啊,我知道暗能量是怎么回事。 诶,但这些人真的是你们行业的,还是完全没有关系的? 不是我们行业,大部分不是我们行业的,也有可能是我们行业后来就是封了。

我觉得他们给你写这个东西是想得到你的认可,他们自己可能也不是那么确定吧,可能觉得说,我操,我怎么那么聪明,我那么牛逼。

哎呦,是不是真的那么牛逼啊? 我要去问问看刘佳。 像如果专业的人一看之后也被我醍醐灌顶了, 可能我真的是那么牛逼。 有可能吧,因为他们讲到的一些东西像阴阳我也不熟, maybe 他们觉得可以给了我一些灵感。 我不知道啊,也可能他们很相信...

就是在既定的知识范围内。 因为, after all, 科学的理论, 我们也是在用人类的大脑, 在自己给自己想象嘛。 是是是。 我们的理论也是用人类的, 自己有限的知识在讲故事。 所谓的民科, 他们也是在用他们有限的知识, 在讲他们自己的故事。 在他们体系来看, 也许很合情合理呢。 但是只是说他们的知识比专业的,

知识少了一大块嘛。 而且他们其中有很多的原理是用一些没有被证实过的理论来 support 他们的故事。 而且他们背后有一个很重要的激励因素就是想做带着光环的科学牛人的感觉。 我觉得可能科学家像牛顿、爱因斯坦、光环

太多很多人想作为下一个爱因斯坦出现不全是对科学的好奇了我觉得你通常对说到这样的来信你会怎么回复 不回复吧你能怎么回复你又说服不了他他又说服不了你是那今天先这样吧该讲到讲到了是吧 觉得他讲挺好的虽然已经录了两个小时但是我觉得当中至少有可以减掉一大部分 你吃冰棒吃了半个小时

谢谢,拜拜。