Tony Sewell on Race, Class and Education - MOB026
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It's quickly. You can't grow people together in one big lump, call bain or whatever because they they're not all the same. So if you're going to deal with any policies around rays, you've got to pick the groups of themselves and look at them very specifically and how they interact.

And even within those groups know you're gonna be quite specific. So the way forward to deal with inequalities is just, is just to be more new once and sophisticated, how you do IT. And then you say, we look OK understand now that a taxi driver in bradford from a pakistan background is a world away from an indian doctor in hero.

We can't just call them asian at that seat. yeah. They are at once of the hindu background, once of muslim and background completely in different worlds. So if you're going to have policies around race, you've got to account for these differences.

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yeah. Great to be here. good. So much about your show. Happy to be here.

Well, a joe recommended you highly that we have a conversation. Yeah, told me you are fascinating guy. I didn't.

I know you, but I don't know you too. Wells is a chance to get to know you. And I think IT a very strange time. I was at the farmers protests last week.

Very strange things happening. America, farmers here. Yeah, you know, we can labor not doing very well. You, which makes me happy. yeah.

why? I mean, it's, i'm not a labor fan. Never happened. My my dad tell me off labor very early on, his aircraft engineer, my mom was a nurse, but he said, I always forever leaves the most of our money in my bank the each month and he said, that's never labor. But they've a they .

have and it's some it's interesting because I think that usually you get a running and a but they haven't IT doesn't surprise me because they really in terms of the popular vote, they were not really shouldn't really have been there. But IT is what is and I suspect my predict is am fine, good at predictions. Actually, we talk about that as well. Yeah, is that there are implicated before four years.

are you think and how that manifests .

just from leadership? Okay, these matters and the leadership will will become more more and popular and then they'll be a coup that will collapse and they're ready for combing out to coming in and rule the world.

you think so? Yeah.

she's she's my batting and I me know I mean, the things with these things hard to you don't want to put your kind of hand in and find it's different. But if SHE plays IT right now, I can talk about some of the strategies you should have yeah um I think I think you'll be there. They might have to be a deal reform, but I think you know you should be there.

But at all any vision, these things are what they are. I think I think that I think that I say as a joke because I think that i'm just talking Jerry politically. But I think SHE will be a forced to be reckon with on on levels of thatt, cher and blair in the future. I think you be the in that category if if we give her a run good.

Well, i've been watching i've been watching a lot of old factual videos and um I was quite Young when that born in seventy eight I remember but I don't I didn't know politica kid but I been watching some of all videos in the way SHE talked practically about i've really liked the bit where he said the government doesn't have any money, only has our money and has to easy responsibly and I think we've .

lost that kind of language yeah I mean the language of direct speak to the people has gone are kind of we're trying to really tend to check the public as full, really. And they're not they are very smart and they know what they want, but they also do not want. I think we're all tired of politics as well in that big percent.

So we looking for delivery agents, people who can just come in and say, right, we want x wise, that we don't really care about your ideology. That's not in kind of framework. Can you deliver a cheaper grocery bills? Can you get the fuel down?

You know, am I gonna my kid into a decent school? Are we going to be safe on the roads? I think those kinds of things, and also, we don't want to be tax to death either.

I'm feeling that right? There are big. I mean, they were big in the point points IT that eric there. And I I kind of wonder the idea of labor's ideology itself is dead these days.

What what went wrong, I think with labor was that IT. We all kind of that. I think politics did.

I mean that thatcher revolution was big. Blair really took IT on Cameron went went mobi. yeah.

And then I think there's a sense now of a politics that is, as I said, about delivery that's not going to a measure. I do think there is this kind of what we can talk about IT. This this whole the issue of of um identity and people's identity.

But it's not surprising that that's come up because I think what what we've all been lost is I mean, I went to church, not was a big deal in the sense, but I went to and not talk about that in the sense because it's it's a gap. I think that is, is there. I mean, we are kind of religious people.

I don't say we are. We are and we kind of looking for things to feel that whole and a lot, lot of the identity stuff is something that you can you need something to rally around. I think that came in from america.

And I think I think in a sense, it's it's almost already losing its way. It's a fake thing really. It's not the real deal.

And I think that 是 you we also kind of and elsewhere， we are very similar to america. We forgot, I think. But i'd called the the group of people who disliked outside of london.

Remember them. They do. They do belong to the world. Yeah.

i'm been Better.

you're right. And those kinds of what we call flows of people, you know and it's a it's quite interesting how our politics is very similar to U. S.

Where they focused everything on new york, dc. In california. Yeah and we we just did london and the rest you can just go fuck off basic. That's really what IT was and a now, now I think we are beginning to realize that you those people actually decide where where we really know not and trump now, and I think in the future, see with the rifle. So it's going to be a kind of rethinking about the geography and how that plays out in way we we kind of understand politics in the way that works.

Well, this is what I think the the of populism is quite interesting because this uses a majority use as a way to um kind of signal there's a threat here. But actually the way I see populum is that is a is all politics is populism is a response to the the citizens, the people. And that's why I think neidl foragers them very well. And i'm not picking this here, but he's failed a gap. He's listening to the concerns of people have all up and down the country.

Yeah, I could not is good is in there he's doing a job. My concern is, I mean, you could argue that IT was similar with trump. IT was focused around one one man or in I do think I worry about the politics that is totally framed around a person. I mean, either that person falls out with their party or they just are not there anymore. Then what have you got is a very fragile way of working and of and and I just I think he's he's going in the right direction in in the sense of aman of politics, the appeals to the to the people.

And this IT isn't very.

very forward politics. Yeah, yeah. I think people can say, you know something sin is happening here, but I don't know. I think that's that's what he is really and I I think there's a tireless of of that, a kind of politics that is really centers around the the luxury needs of the london leat you and not really around what what goes on in bad food and bad food.

Yeah you know what? I was quite different. I didn't vote in the last election, just I didn't like enough about reform to vote for them.

I'm never going to vote for labor. And I think love is lost their way. And so I did.

I was politically homeless, and I realized IT was was our lowest vote to turn out in twenty thirty years. And there is this kind of like vacuum that needs feeling. And and I think a lot of people felt let download conservatives.

They now feel already let down by labor. And I think is always going to do a lot of work to going to bring them back. But I think people just want anyone here something be different.

Yeah I mean, look, here's the thing I shot one quite interesting. There was A A demographic in amErica um a males who that we thought didn't bother but just went down the problem. Watch T V, yes, football.

And we didn't think that they were a political force. But they have come out now. IT were closed again. And I think IT a sense of what they were saying was IT simply um they were quite interested in a strong leader and I could have been a woman IT doesn't really matter.

I mean that I am is just a strong leader who they could rally around and not somebody who in a sense was I mean really in the truly was was false really in a sense, if we can display mild no, I mean, he was making up if he was going along. Yeah, at least trust was consistent with his with his badness and madness. But that's what he was, you know.

And I think the other thing was that the message was a straight forward one IT was one about, look, we're going to deliver again on these things yeah and I do think that there was a tiredness of of of of a politics that in a sense are also marginalized. Made a lot. You know i'm not saying that there are issues around masking ity, but you know you we are by night, I say we will be very careful here.

But and not every man, but I think we like an adventure. We like an adventure and we look like a hero. I'm like somebody who's also going to talk positive about us in our country and we just haven't had them in britain. And we might now have that because we're we're going to learn from america.

Yeah I think it's almost like we're lagging them. But following them, it's we're like one election behind them in the way we're thinking. But I know, like with my mates, I mean, you ve probably got a lot of lot of my mates are looking across america.

So we need this kind of a dream team. We need a toy and an e law and A R F K O to come together with. Because everything feels just a bit weird and stupid and you .

I think what he is, is people think that oh, that's sort of a form of extreme right. yes. And and it's not really I think that against misunderstanding where the people are, people really about fairness, they're not really about, you know, all I must be hate this group or a fear extreme, but what they don't want is they don't are politics.

There is kind totally unfair and bias and getting that from a lot of the institutions around us. And so I think what we saw in america, we can have we could have here. And I mean, I of I represent some of that.

Although if you look at the demographic, they're still quantum mean that is appealing to, you know, I mean, trump went for a Younger a male demographic as well, which is interesting. And I think that that that somewhere where can we can go? I mean, she's also got to define the conservatives m in a sense of what he is, but also the demography.

I mean, I mean, a lot of people in middle and did like her, but ever is about seventy five. They may not even be around the xy. election.

So you got she's got to find the gain membership. And I think that's where you can do IT always about matrix and numbers, if you can get the membership of the tory party up again. And this time you've got ta find IT in a slightly Younger demographic, but one that is really about, we need, we need this delivery politics. I think she's on a winner, but it's going to be hard work.

Yeah, I don't I don't know too much about, I didn't follow the leadership race too much. I kind of I this interest with the cause. Yeah, I did.

I got just interested with the conservatives. I am really spent too much. I don't know much about policy.

I did see her at the farmers protest. He gave great speech. Yeah, he said he would immediately reverse this, an inheritance tax, which would be a good idea. But I don't tell an .

interesting thing when you're not know, and I don't think anybody knows. I think I think still, I think he's got a long way to sell herself and to her party. And I said, he needs to go run and people need to sit.

Well, one of the things he has got going for as visually, she's obviously think at the dispatched box, you can see what's going on. I think in the said, I are running the acts in your favor. They're going to put a name so they're going to put something they like about her that he was in a similar position when he came out as education secretary um became leader.

We had to redefine herself and he did in A A, in a way that I think we all like. We wanted someone that direct I loved. One of the things about that I really loved was when the old british air way I member, they would try to, as they were, glam up their, their, their kind of advertising on, on, on the the finds of the play, and they they were just putting out different colors.

And they got rid of of the union jack SHE. He came into a meeting, took off her scarf and wrapped up the fin with her scarf and said, this is what I want britain to represent as kind of things that always is kind of it's just something that you do as a politician that I the sticks in the mind. And it's just to say anything you just do those kinds of x that meant that I am actually, I actually believe in britain and brittle railways are crazy no. And I think that that's that's that's a kind of thing I think kimmy needs to do but you just overdo IT but you we just not to know what he stands for yeah .

have that pride in britain yeah that kind of almost nothing is pride. It's been kind of looked down.

Look, I wait. I don't about you. I mean, i'm trying to work out your age.

but I went to school six.

right? Okay, i'm sixty five. And I remember when we went to the cinema and we add to the picture and the film started, said we would like to stand up and signal. And I, yeah, I was what that does interest computer, clearly, you you not that I, because you might ever remember the time with an back of the air play, you could actually spoke. I know if you remember .

that my dancer, smoker and the air of engine on the so I we.

I we used a little bit revery substance to be, sit down and not doing because we could be, but most of us did IT. Now the issue there was much, what is that? Why you doing that to to people? I don't advocate we do that today, but what IT was was there was a clear sense of a national identity, a sense of pride. If you go around all, but I say every kind, sure, in the plan I would say they have the Young people will sing their national anthem and actually provided to britain is the only one where it's it's in doubt.

Why do you .

think that is now here, this is where I think we chemical score a we know, I think that we've had a whole kind of history, and it's been a recent one, and a politics of of shame, of guilt about what IT is to be british's. Usually around slavery, usually around different groups being alienated from the the mainstream. And I think that has been driven by university is something online as well.

And of course, the BBC type of programs that you have, the inner sets, all that they do is IT starts off with the mainstream britain, be in the enemy and then the heroes are uh the marginalized groups and that's the discourse. If IT documentary is, if it's anything like that. So we are pumped daily to not believe in britain is something that we are ashamed of.

And even you, I mean, one of the reasons why our football is find IT hard to, I was to work this out, why they find IT hard to sign the action. And you look at of the country singing in the french, they singing IT with. And even even the people from migrant backgrounds know the thing that we've ve. But when IT comes to us love you is not that they they're not patriotic.

I think they just don't know IT because they haven't been they don't seeing IT at school is just not around and and there's a little lin IT was says we should never be slaves, which is actually not about slavery is actually a longer history are talking about you know not wanting to be slaves so um and then of course um you know so we only have little bits. We were allowed to be nationalistic, which is when IT comes to the same final or the football and we were about to lose, then we we we all start wave in the flag flag. And the other thing what happened historical was the um the english flag, while more than even the union jack with the english flag got wrapped up and associated with the national front in the BMP.

And they they captured that for a long time. So a lot of people never felt that they could really bring that back. Now my sense is, if I was education minister, I, I, I don't want, I don't want schools to necessary five flags or whatever, but I would encourage schools to learn the national anthem and get the children to seeing IT.

Now, I guess, to be removed with then. I trying to think we're my his ever. I think the only time we hear is when england plan. That's literally the only time we hear. I think also some people don't and we don't really know what IT is to be british anymore because like that means different things that when you are if you're in central land is very different. Even I don't know one of the counties.

I don't know. I find that to me, that's not a problem in a sense.

easily IT isn't because .

I know what did change so much. I have been an inner sense. That issue is always been there when if you're in whales or if you're in the border towns, we've it's always been problematic. We went civil wars in this good, but never, I mean, this cohesion thing is interesting.

But I think what we have had, which I think we've lost, is a sense that there are certain basic things that we're going to rap around that's gonna we going to all sign up to and believe in. And I think the a lot of that is fair play, fairness, a tradition. And I kind of still a belief in the monarchy that IT works and it's IT represents something I think that whatever ever kind of the care is, is big said. So it's there IT works. I think there's also a sense that what we what we stand for um you know in sense of our humor, in sense of a kind of uh our traditions of great our culture and writers and and and we go great buildings and anyway, once we list all of that, what earth all these americans and europeans coming over here piling in all around this area as well to see, you know they got nowhere else, you know so they're hungry for something and so we have we've constructed something which is the envy of the world yet um I think frustrating ly um our own people are force to feel ashamed of you. 嗯 yeah well.

we have to remove that shame. But just back to the conservative, so what went wrong, like I can tell you from me, why is the only party I never voted for? I didn't the last I could tell you why, but i'd be wrong. And how do they fix IT?

Well, I think 我 actually went wrong in a sense。 Was IT always. Was this thing right from market such as he kind of fuddled IT a bit from the time around europe.

And so you really had a party that was limping on and kind of hiding and covering up this big um schism really in in the party around this issue. And IT came up with breaks IT as the the big thing. So I think in terms of just a political issue, you inside that party was never resolved.

You, do we go close? Do we leave? I mean, ted heath kick to see in. And but but what people argue was we we didn't sign up for all the other stuff.

IT was basically the economics, the E, U, but not the wider things that were that came with IT, particularly around the legal rights and acceptance and also civil rights of the of the country itself. I mean, that seem to be decided elsewhere as the people began and close the issues around migration. And so that we became, I think, the big issue that spit the party, other things going on.

I do think that um if I was clear the the conservative party is a center the center right party, but there were people in IT who sneak in the back door who I think were liberal democrats instead of。 In drag really you know just to take to be tories. But I and they really want you to make IT the nice party, know everything else and IT is is a nasty party. But it's certainly one that has convictions to the center on the right. And I think the what what actually happened was those people, in the sense in a camp, had a camp and at the following and uh and and and IT always there was always gonna a conflict with the, and I think that this lame thing with boris, so, so in effect, what we then had was a leader who, similar to Cameron, wouldn't wouldn't really take us over the hill in a way that we needed, you know, bit of this, a bit of that, you know, not really sure where we were going now. And I think that that lack of direction meant that the party would eventually explode.

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If you want to find out more, please had over the zippo bank dot com force slash W B D, which is X A P O B A N K dot com force ash W B D IT fills to me that there is a huge difference between the conservatives and labor right now, to me as a voter, in that that both high tax, high borrowing, a high surveilLance, the governments and, I mean, look, labor's even worse. I mean, they were gonna orn more, and they are going to hot taxes more. But I don't feel like the conservatives were holding on to very strong principles of pro business in a way that I need as a business owner and low tax and and focus on the discipline and rigid structures.

I feel like you just of self left came a party, and that was was a mush in fordone. What was this thing? A growth liberal democrat, that very creative kind of grow that we had to have every day. We, you know, we hated IT, but that was what we just lived with IT. And eventually the voters you called up with us and I think that for me, I was at times so well you don't want to be involved in this thing yeah anymore and why what .

happened .

what I think just over that particularly think so every, every conservative would have gone through that as to what what are we have, we look at the look at the point you you can I don't believe anybody saw any conservatives. We've in the most loyal didn't consider a i've got a jump ship and many did, you know? But I still think that there is hope.

They I think, and I have to look to leadership for this. I have back kimi. I mean, I and and I do think he has got some of the prince was you're talking about.

He just needs to communicate that widely. I think that you i'm hoping that that she'll steer us back to to, you know, basic principles. What do you think .

is going to be the biggest chAllenge that with the .

party IT is gonna come from those those those kind of liberal democrat. I call them the ones really. And although we got little of some of them in the last election, they're still around. And and if you only got one hundred and twenty, your mp is so me.

So picking the company was really a you got to have to look towards trying to now he has to work with that, those kinds of numbers and hope that they they kind of see the light. But I think really, i'm hoping that someone that will fall on their odds yeah and that is when you see a party going in the particular direction. Other thing is, I think you should rely less on politicians.

Now I think trumps right to bring in outsiders. I do think that that's a key place thing. In the frame of things, people can see a different.

So this is the thing that blows my mind. The labor party front bench, not one person on that has ever run a company, right? Yeah and that lose my mind yeah you know these people are making decisions that affect businesses ah and they make a terrible decisions that seem economically illiterate. And then so I did my researchers like .

no one of you has run a company. And I think that in some ways, that's what you need. You need is a less of the the blair kind of political efficiency here.

Now even they think in they're doing that. So they bring in, in JoNathan power, people like that. I don't think that's the answer for there.

They've got ta be, they've onta find a an elan musk type of person, find a big hit. O is gonna. You know, the civil service needs a good kicking.

Yeah, yeah. You got ta come to work, you know, not their home. Watch day time TV and pretend you working come to work. And so in that sense, we you do need those big figures to help you along because because it's not for interesting that that trump himself, even though is a bigger o himself, says that he need these other characters to really make the thing work. So again, I I think that A A, if SHE comes the me with the same old, then I think this to me problems. I think if SHE develops a real kinds leadership that does look towards business, towards some of the big hitters and this does politics differently.

you know, chinese who appealed to the public as war. I think, I mean, this is what, I think, the reform of them really well, whether is fragile, rich ties or report low, if you just follow their twitter accounts, the things they talk about, all the things I know, everyone of the three talking about, sure, which is issues with migration, tax, business, energy Prices, and they're talking very directly, very blunt and not hold him back. And I think that resonate with people. So i'm going to be interested to see how cami talks to the public .

IT came me smart also what he could do, which would be, take a leaf out, boris, book a bit. Because boris was even, I mean, in a sense, i've gotto give him. You remember this guy was this eight thousand kind of anaa, very eccentric.

Was a mayor of london that kind of woke town for two terms, you know, and and so how did he do that? How did he appeal to that group? And why the country? You know, so is there's something in a way in which you can do both.

You can speak to the unforgotten forgotten the kind of I was said the unforgiven, but really I said in some ways, that's really what it's about, but it's also a kind of an appeal that goes to even even in in london. And I I think that could work as well. I mean, so I think there's there's I think what would the appeal that he had was, again, in a direct politics, you know, the london source I can live in stone wasn't the answer anymore. And borris was because that that direct politics.

what I mean, if you talk about my, I think CD cars have been a rough time yeah I know a lot of people are complaining about london. I don't wei watched love you silly. I just I don't want IT um and all the people I know living here just saying they kind of sick of what's happening in london.

You feel in that? Yes, I feel that longer .

is actually .

my towners, in one sense, because I was born here, but born in london. But and I said i'm kind of less interested in london now actually, I feel the exciting day a little bit like new york, a california. I really do think that the real politics as a reform, as shown, is outside of london.

And yes, I do think that we have a mad is is not really showing leadership in terms of crime but I can't say that I can't blame you. You know, that was his a agenda so you get you you get what you voted for. You don't mean so that's that's the take.

I mean, not that the conservatives showed that we much Better alternatives. So so we do need that a game. Who who becomes the conservative lead for that post? I mean, James cleverly, I think he might when to step in, you know, if if he's smart, he might be able to run a good, good race against labor yeah I think .

I think this worries me because we spent a lot time for I like to Steve Baker, is the level of debt the country has now. I think this is, this is become a problem, is becoming a bigger and bigger problem. And you, this mom, might even resonate with you because I know how much you care about education 吧。 We spend more money now service in our debt interest and we spend on education. Yeah, how did we get to that point where we are just to me, I found imagine .

but I think it's not surprising that governments are try to spend their way out trouble, I mean, conservative eva, really both. And I think that that idea you do that is without actually creating wealth itself. And I think that this seems to me that they haven't got people imagine enough around them.

So as as you said before, I think here is where the opportunity is to do government differently in hope. That needs a cabinet that has a mixture of people that are not career politicians and and who know how to create wealth. And so it's obvious that goes to those people.

of course, mean, make sense. I can I can tell you, I can tell them right now the policies that they need to change tell the business because we've run businesses and I would start more businesses if they change some. Their policies are actually thinking of doing less business because labor, because a moment like can't be bothered .

to have profit. Yeah, I mean, you know that for the star, but I think also there's need to be a when I say a bit more imaginative around business. I mean, business, as you know, always thrives.

You know optimism always thrives in in a sense of a can do culture, in a we can and adventurism. So I think there's two things running. There is the practicalities of of you say, you know, cutting out the red tape, making IT easier for business to tribe investment, borrowing money eeta, lower interest rate, things like that. But and on the other hand, has got to be a context of I feel I wants to get up in the morning and really go for IT. You know, I don't know if I feel like that today in this atmosphere.

Yeah well, I mean, if you've been squeeze constantly, I mean, if you know if you rents gone up or your morg gone up and you grocery bills are gone up and your feels gone up, yes.

but I think there's a wider thing that, that is not just that. If you're also IT goes back to this, think about nationally. If you've got a government that's almost like thinks is great, a punched the country down, actually look at IT and always critically and it's it's identity and what IT stands for, its history, culture. If you got that almost institutionalize ed, then you know what's the point, you know .

yeah yeah I mean, I I don't disagree. I just think the opportunity and needs to be there because it's really hard at the moment to run a business, a small business yeah especially a town like death and make money. It's not just the red tape, is the taxes as well.

And I just think the innovation, but that peath the world. And because so many shops are closed and business rates are a real heard all together a business go. And I just think that they need to be a bit clever with things like that.

a smart way, i'll give you this for nothing really, he says, is I think to do business is also to think about how you developed the talent in your in those smaller areas rather than leave them to run down. And here is, I think, where the actually think kind of needed to think differently. But labor doing no Better, I think, is to try and find in a way, a way of doing business that is going to a kind of make people feel as if they are they're skilled enough to be able to take up opportunities, I think, and confident enough as well.

So for example, it's not just I wants to be a filmmaker, what if everybody wants to be, which mean I want to to be an actor, whatever is actually what are the opportunity is around this business that can make money either as a business or how can I get into this? You know, that's an interest for me. I think what's happened is the IT comes back to a geographical thing. We've left a lot of things inside. London has become a secret garden and and a lot, lot of people in best food, you don't know and how to be these things you and so there's a great a lot of there's a big work that needs to be done on on opportunity is what they are, what they look like and and and feeding this specially to Young people .

you done to load, to work in education. You understand, you stand IT very well for me, just as a as a parent with two kids, I am watching, specially my daughter now the homework she's done and when he comes home and how she's thinking, I person feel like we haven't evolved education as a program for kids. The identity main, the same education as me. sure. Super computers in their pocket with A I chat box explain everything to them and then they're still going in a memorize, in fact, and unlike, why are we teaching more practical skills like critical thinking, more philosophy and ideas about finance, building business, why we never modernize to create, Young people are able to go out and people both confident, skilled to do these things.

I'm not absolutely sure that that's what we need in the education. No, I think that we going to laugh at this, but I do think that in a sense, I don't mind us doing not a shakespeare and .

not a latch ff.

I think there's a sense of a basic education that makes you confident. And one of the things that makes you confident, I think, is not in stuff. It's a really kind of interesting way of of looking at the world.

I've interviewed lots of people in for post. You might have done the same. And you you really know the kid that actually just just knows lots of things, you know and and it's no and even though they're got the phone, I still don't know IT.

So it's going wrong there. Helps to be helps the the basis for actually then that wider spring, the kind of what you talk about, the critical thinking, the creativity that we have. So I would I would argue that schools, in a sense, that their functions are to really make our kids numerous and literal acknowledgement, I think, as more less IT the skill sector.

Here's where i've got my kind of beef against industrial and itself, IT rails. And may be you are part of this as well. IT rails against schools are you don't do enough skills, you don't do enough.

But IT itself, that has relied a lot on cheap labor, is relied on getting foreign talent, particularly on the high end as well, the banks and all of that. So IT has never really been that interested in their local comprehensive that, that it's been able to function because of those kind of economics. But IT hasn't done is and I I use the analogy of of of football.

For example, IT IT doesn't done what an arsenal or romances the city has done, developed to an academy, developed to A A source of talent that says, i'm going to get involved in this process of growing people towards me, and i'm going to put in ladder and scaffold dings and opportunities and mentoring schemes. And i'm going to do an outreach program from the company itself. It's gonna bring this talent towards me.

IT was done informally through our I remember at school through the old kinds of apprenticeship systems, you know, where you went off with your own cool or whatever when you know and and you became a plummer because your uncle was a plummer, you went round with you mean that was the way you did IT. But on on a big macro scale, that's what that's what companies should be doing. IT should be the the almost creating their own beds of of talent and bring IT towards them.

So I got ta beef with companies. Any companies watching is now need to seriously think about the fact that you should stop think is that is the equivalent really about football team just buying its talent from abroad. I'm not saying, well, what about home, about homegrown .

stuff but they do some stuff with the university some yeah the big like consultancies .

in london you get you do have some average but they're very london century, right? The schools that benefit them are all the ones that lined up near canary wolf. Again, the same people gain the same benefits so that making ism really hasn't worked.

IT needs, IT needs them to. They know what they have to do, what they scared of doing. And I think this is where kind of lost IT a bit is IT not sure about how to approach schools or colleges or Young people.

They would kind of a bit scared about that. And they say the career development in school is really bad. But is that is that for school to do? Or is that for the the industry to do?

You know, for you to get your APP together and say, okay, what we're going to do is we're not just going to go for the low hanging fruit. We're going to say we're going going to say, right, okay? We need in the next ten years or next five years, just as you do a business plan, x amount of people.

So where are they what they doing there in these schools have would the schools have no idea what what these industries are on how to do that? So we've got to go out and we've got to get them towards us. So I am in as a two way street going here.

Let's brash the schools to are so extent, because some of the things they are doing does need to be a little bit more practical. However, they are what they are. And britain doing are very well on reading, you know, used to be really crapped reading SHE gone to sum that really well in the reading, because without do photos, without teach kids to sort, sound out words, as our kids are reading really well, you know.

And that so that school should be congratulate about that, because at least begin kids are more literate than they were before. So things that are going well, but I just think this partnership between industry and the schooling system just needs to be Better. Hates government is to come in and say, right, okay, I understand this.

Let's make this marriage work Better, you know. So let's have some thinking. But of course, they haven't got anybody, as you say, who runs a business, was advising them, you know, are going back to the same people who turning them nonsense about how we need or we need more well being.

We need this. We need that instead, you know, let's get, let's get up the equivalent of a real mask inside the cabinet office. And let's let's .

make all of. So so you what's your experience in with this in the education in that do. But let me ask some different question. Do you think if they do .

will something because we do a programme, national grid, you know actually we we're sitting there scratching the heading. H we're the national good. I we can turn off the lights, but but we need people to come in and work for us, and we're not sure how to do IT.

So we said that will step in, in the middle and we just did this and schools didn't really have the capacity. And why should they why should somebody who is trained to be in english teacher suddenly become an expert in the film industry or or or whatever? No, I don't know about everything.

yeah. So what we what national energy, for example. So what national grid's did was we they broke at these relationships with schools outside of london and and actually now great jobs are coming towards them as a result of that. So to me, in all of these things as well, I like trumping some ways it's all about delivery and just deliver on common sense things. But now what we have in the moment, so schools are difficult to to engage with that they got lots of rules, that there are some of them worse than others, but also schools, I think, would be happy if industry came towards them and that we're gonna make IT easier for that to happen.

yeah. Can you tell me a bit more about the charity?

What we do, it's very interesting. Charity is what I did was like kind of seit up about twenty years ago. You'd generate ingenious.

And what I did is I realized that stem science, technology, engineering, math was the future, which he is, yeah, and we need our kids to be skilled in that area. But I realized the schools were hopeless, really delivering this. And I tried, but they weren't getting there.

So what I did was I realized you had to have a pipeline program where you started the age twelve thirteen and you stayed with the same key to them, what's twenty five? okay. So we have kids now literally thirty, and they want our board and they start with us when they was, well, amazing.

And so it's an art of staying with them all the time. And I got this. And what what do we do is we just do the exposure to industry's work experience, mentors, that the usual stuff, the that's not rocket science in the sense, but it's the longevity is the hand holding all the way through.

So there is a quiet sea of who gets on. You have to be poor. Know what background is, just as long as as you got low income, 一个 a an income that is， is relatively low, we have to put a barrier on IT.

And we say those are the kids that were often where you're from. What your background is and how that works is that you yourself to be interested in science or somewhere technology. And yeah, it's flow and we don't do any di stuff we used to, but we don't do any of that kind of that kind of diversity, kind of a kind of you know quoters or whatever.

And funny enough, I would say sixty five percent of the students on the programme of goals OK without any particular effort to go down there, right? And because they the girls are not stupid, they smile. They realized that getting on this program and getting getting these credentials will help them progress.

So it's not we're going to do girls these girls that they just was off is offered out in the schools. The girls sign up and they they go on. So we have to do a look at work, work with the boys.

But he was, here was an area science that we said, all girls are not interested. All all the nature. We would do enough work with them to make you into even a lot of sexism in IT. We've just given them the the mechanism to just run through that and they'll take advantage of you.

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disparity that shows up? So we got, we got situation that we always have. The germs go back, Kevin, of totally dominate in the fee. I loved that. Yeah and so what we've had to do is we've just make IT geographics and we're go to newcastle, we go to bars wales.

We don't have to say race, we just say where you live yeah and that that automatically means that we can get White in there. So far from me, I also know, is generate ingenious everywhere yeah yeah and so I know i'm really, after the kids in bed for burnley, what those particularly White kids who are who who are not doing well, poor from poor backgrounds, come on our program. What and how?

How does he like? What is the difference is making them? What are they getting from this that they wouldn't be getting under the Normal education? What are you providing?

Think that is what? In fact, if you ask the middle class kid, I know I have to now go to every monitor's either from the india a backroom from now you the middle class ones what they they get those middle class elbows yes um get them through the network in who you know you know and IT was a terrible cut, a survey about who got work experience you know in in big companies every year.

IT was the same people who are getting IT who you know yeah people who were get. So we are kind of providing that leap into and what he does is I anna, see you. I'm quite sad. And we go to those areas that are outside alone. And on the south coast, some of the kids who are very, very bright have not a clue as to what what is available out.

So I to come across kids, you know who who have got three days there, a levels, I guess, is three a and capable of going to a really top university, and have no idea of the differences between the standards of universe, right? Their parents have no idea bright, so we help them to get there. yeah. Other things is this is always used to bash hair dresses. And I won't do this, but well, less use that, except anyway, the course I ve come across the beauty industry, for example, which a lot of a significant amount of White girls from four background seem to go into.

Won't we suggest to them that wait a minute, you've got a in your chemistry gcc, you could actually get another a in the a level and go off to university and do chemistry and do and work for a proper and gamble in the research department and the lazy OK, you know, that line is given to them at all. The school doesn't know about IT, the parents don't know about IT. So they will end up being just a head dresser when they could have been doing something else you know, a terrible wait you know, is yeah so what we're going to do is we got to find this, this talent. I mean, I really, really like kids end up doing jobs that are below really their ability range.

some of IT. So you have to, instead of belief in them as well.

Well, let me tell this right they're going to schools that i've not sent body children of the universe verity at all. That's a lot thing. Have some schools like that out to imparts in the suburb liverpool. You get those kinds schools and also i'll be very direct with you here. The the parents are not aspirational enough.

I say this as I can't really explaining any more than that because you can't collude with the kid to say you you're going to stay at home and watch and play on your game station and not go to school and expect school kid to do well. So what can happened there is they're not supporting their children enough in that. So we've had to become almost kind of parental things.

So one of the things we've done in the past, it's it's been a great program. I did this would send ands college ox food I said, right, i'm gona hire couple of coaches yeah you're going to pay for IT, of course, for this and i'm gonna some parents from the poor ends of birmingham. Talented students um predominant why I am going to bring those parents to your colleagues for a day out not and the kids can come along and then you're going to explain to them how you get here.

The parents know what the food was like that was the main thing and accommodation and all that. And and they also was shot that they were not those kind of IT wasn't just who I hate Henry kind of, but kind of snobbery kind of, uh, city dollar were coming to. But actually there were ordinary people with heads there went to those places.

So eventually the parents came back after the guy, that experience of a positive experience in there, they came back on the coaches, they said, what my son is going to that university, and they know, knew how to do IT. Because oxford run this very complex system of applying to colleges and then the university, and it's all kind of a secret garden, and I have to get in. And if you haven't got somebody in your school or is able to identify the colleges and how IT all works, you will never get in.

You you never want to get in. So I know from that particular um run that we did a number of those students applied and got in as a result of that program because we went to the parents first, you see, and worked with them, you see. And suddenly all the kinds of mistake of oxford was broken down as they saw that they would just folks like us here.

Yeah no, it's because you can talking about paul White kids and I I don't know if I mean I just assume the the majority of the that there was a racial disparity in in but IT was a black and kids who were probably having, especially in the city and who have less opportunity.

But it's not not the case of the irony of london is a very kind of interesting irony. Um I look at I look at a place I hacky yeah, you know, I mean, to get in there now to buy a house city a couple of million pounds anyway, at first I called gentrified when IT was a place where nobody wanted to go. Secondly, what we did, and I say we, I mean, I was involved in in the process of transforming a bora from from being where the worst school districts, not in england, but in europe, that was, I was tag, and we transform that to be one of the best. And so how how do .

you do what .

you want for very basic standards? We went for knowledge education, real hard thing about what, knowing stuff, we we fired all the crap head teachers in there, right? They came, you know, we've spent the same same, right, how we're gonna you on your on that pension to get you away because you're not doing any good.

We did that. That was the key thing. We had teachers in there that had really high expectations of the students.

I think what also happened was hati was full of migrants who were also kind of very aspirational because i'd come from abroad and I wanted their kids to do well. So there was a lot discipline at home. I think those factors, plus IT, was labor actually, in the certain of goof tookey on as well.

Government, he puts some money into those schools, but that was those very basic facts. But school leadership was one that said IT didn't matter what background you were from. We just want very, very high standard.

And we're going to have really high discipline in these schools. We're going to run this military style. Yeah and the kids loved him. The kids loved because what they were telling me was the sir before when nobody cared, no, nobody came and said, but you shouldn't be doing this.

All your school uniform is alright because then he says, if you're doing that means you actually care about me but if i'm just working around and nobody says anything, well, you know, well, see, that isn't IT. Well, just right around to do so. There was there was a caring thing in this way of doing schooling, a discipline focused. And yeah, I think that's how how .

and did does the shift happen? quick?

IT was massing. We did IT in five years under five years. So london schools now produced the best results in the country.

What the for me? And I think if if chem could do anything, he needs to kind of find a way. And SHE gets the right people in that cabinet of her to take that love across the country to other places.

That's what we need. And you see other places transform. It's not just london.

So do you is are then miss around like .

racial disparities.

So there's a guy that's a podcast that I call zoom, and he remember the thing he said to me said the the demand for racist amount .

strips the supply. It's because we've also got almost kind of transplanted in in in terms of the black side a nigeria in the west african middle class, right? This this flies through everything really just eating up in the innocence of they get the top to result. I found me when I did a reporter around this twenty and yeah, yeah, well, you know, that's what they say, but it's about as I was really cuddly stuff, really. But they just thought I was I was going to one of the things we ve found was the caribee kids in the same classroom.

But we're doing worse than the african kids, right? And one of the things that really, really, I mean one end virtually on the way to sort of kind of virtually tour freg CS, the ones who going off to workspace ach, that was the in the same classroom. And so what was and coming from the on the same states, so what the even what seemed to be happening there was the family background that caribbean group was was running numbers like sixty eight percent.

Single parents was the nigerians were running like twenty percent at india of a five percent. So you see, you ve got that big difference between whether that at home or not, whether the family structure is a stable one. And that's the basis for a great education.

So okay, okay. So how do you fix that? If if cause IT exists, if you have that family breakdown, what can you do for those?

I think first, we need governments to stop pretending and stop flappy about as as labor done in the past. I think they getting more focus now that this is an issue so that we have family hubs and family support and things like I don't think that's clear. A good is IT to me.

One of the one of the indicators of of of of a child, particularly primary school, not doing well is when the dad leaves or when the mother kicks the dad out or when the now if you're as a school, you need to track particularly primary y school what happens to that bright kid when that particular crisis is a massive Price, particularly for a boy yeah this body because, said me, IT is not as bad for girls is that is just worse for boys. And so admit that the case and that's a right. Okay, there's where we need to start focusing the the resource right from that moment that that father leaves.

And I think it's it's supporting the mother, bringing in stuff like that. I I believe those kinds of things that sounds very kind of, you know, left wing ish, but I think that's what you we have to do in a sense of making that work. I think this is a practical outcome and I think that what we also must do is try to um get those children and the teachers focused on raising the standards for those children.

Are you happy? Single parent boys did very well, but I did very well because we didn't send teachers off to entiring es classes to learn how to not be racist. We just say you get what we will do.

We'll put money into. You've been a Better english teacher, have been a bit mass teacher. That's really what the children we need.

So as a school that's focused on the high standards and structure and discipline, because if you are a boy, your dad is gone. The structures in the discipline i've gone as well, I would hate to say this, but that is the case. yeah. And so if you go to a school with no structure, you just added to a problem. So innocent school becomes a safe haven for those boys because in there they get structures in the discipline that they would .

need to succeed. Okay, um this can just go back to the port self if some people are controversial IT was criticize is IT because they before the report came out, they wanted you to come to certain conclusions that you didn't come to. They'd already decided they wanted. They wanted to have the claim that we are a racist country.

Yes, they you got IT right. They wanted already because all these reports do the same thing on race you watch right for them before they're they wanted us not to follow the data, not to follow their numbers, where to simply declare that britain was systemically racist. What an earful place, you know and nobody really should come here because, you know, everyone is.

And and I hadn't improved or that there wasn't more complex then then you know how they wanted IT to be. So therefore, they had already condemned IT before. And I had the media going along with them, right, to take them along.

The mainstream media took a corporate media that's right. I think this was before even podcast were really big yeah, this meeting. So we had nowhere else to go and listen to.

The sky, the BBC, the channel force all went along with that line. And this report really was was awful. However, what we did, what his were really works up.

They said the the report was made by me, a black man, and there was a token White man on on the group. All of us were for any minorities. Yes, that also we've never had anything like that in britain.

yeah. But the report said like that, and our conclusions were not that written races exist. So what they did, they try to discard the report by saying that we said racism didn't exist a nice way of doing and see.

So I will, obviously, this report is meaning this because it's deny in racism. What we actually say is it's more complex. And in fact, what was happening, the differences between groups, we're really interesting as well.

I eat that cabby in african thing, pakistani, indian groups. More interesting because obvious. Ly, there were differences in the outcome class. In the end, we we ended up by same social economic class, was the major driver for those race disparately that would not want that were behind them and not racist of itself. And they didn't like that.

No, we what's the process of choosing you to do the report?

How does that work? Let me put my head off. And these these are often political yeah but they're often ones that um ones where you kind of have to they really wanted me to really think about education.

So they came for me for that yeah but I also knew that I mean this was a conservation government of commissioners boris Johnson. So they wanted to have somebody that had some sympathy with the center right. You always do that.

Now however, what what people don't realize was that I was not um in any way. Boris did as well. Boris twice.

Boris doesn't did even know really what was going on in here until the end. No, he was not involved at all. In, in, in this outcome. We were left alone. In fact, I would be honest to say, in some ways, we we were going further.

They want to think this is really kind of the thing about the hosting, about race and racism, that, in fact, this was our politics now, and this what we wanted to say, not this in a political end, but we wanted to say, what do you do if you put the politics aside and just follow the numbers, right? Not just a sentiment, what do you get in the end? And that's what we ended up with. And the history.

and he was a class issue, really.

then I was not know IT. Every since then, a lot of people have repented of their seeds, believe me, and have come out and said that a tribute to us. But you can see in the sidelines they're saying that, you know, yes, or maybe class is a fact to hear, and that we've gonna a look at. And then the other thing they don't didn't want to say in the report was that black people do well, they didn't. Everything was about misery around.

But that was said that the shaming of the country, why is?

Because they'd been brought up in the history of the history of this and in the context, and of course, they were being fed stuff amErica as well, that in fact, the a person's a lot. If you're black in britain, y's misery. You know, there's not an achievement.

Stand here at all. There's not a success brand. In fact, what was that not true? no.

In health and in education, the black and asian groups were outstripping the four White groups. I am an african woman, lives longer in britain, seven times longer than the mortality, right? Compared to a White person.

What four person who lives, he does not live as long. Why is smoking and drinking? Those two things know right? right?

Pretty Better diet and food. Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's I mean, that's fascinating. So so how do IT? Because there are some, there are some equality issues that still exist. How did they get dealt with? What is the way to deal with this?

But I think the way to deal with this is to have a more new on document around them. Some example is quite clear, you can't grow people together in one big lump call, bain or whatever because they we're not all the same. yeah. So if you're going to deal with any policies around race, you've got to pick the groups of themselves and look at them very specifically and how they interact. And even within those groups know you're gonna be quite specific.

So and what I told you about education, quite interesting with going after, particularly where people live, I mean, that's that's the geography is is is perhaps the Better a way of dealing with the Better hand on IT rather than necessarily just talk IT about people's racial background. And so I think that the way forward to deal with the inequalities is just is just to be more numerous, sophisticated, how you do IT and actually bring in all these other elements of of class, of background, of historical background, of gender, all these things come in, and then you say, look, OK understand now that a taxi driver in bradford from a pakistan background is a world away from an indian doctor in hero. We can't just call them asian at that seat.

yeah. They are at once for the hindu background, once a muslim, and background, completely different worlds. So if you're going to have policies around race, you you got to account for these differences.

So so haven't done that work, then how do what are your observations on? We have have a we only here in a situation where people are questioning immigration and particularly some big debates and conversations around, uh, the muslim communities in the country.

I'm finding some of the uncomfortable mom of self because I just am on, but that where multiple rol town never had in the issues, big indian community, uh, bangladeshi community, polish community, italian community is just with very multicultural and I see these kind of like american commentators with a strand of information having a perception of what the U. K. Is like in using terms like there's an invasion. And I and i've finding that uncomfortable, but i'd be interested for new euro observations. Haven't done this report.

I think that immigration is an issue which we have to deal with. And I think that an illegal immigration in particular is one that has to be there with you. And I think that any government that tries to kind of wash over and even that labor would try to say that when if you do IT now there's doing exactly the same thing that works are doing same policies, same kind of headaches giving them so IT wasn't such a big issue.

Why why is you know your main focus? You so is clear. I think that um for me, I I still think that there's a sense in which the integration issue is still a big problem.

I think that it's you can't you can't get round that. And in fact, what what is happening is that there are there are model groups like to say this is terrible winter, say that that show us how to do integration. Well, I think jewish h groups, I think indian groups in particular, i've done very and you're so extend even though they have done well in terms of somebody outcomes.

The caribee group is dealt well as well and and the integration isn't the selling out of your own background or whatever, but IT IT is this ability to become um you know your part of the culture in the society and you and you celebrate and you you don't denigrate IT. So for example, one of the things that tends to happen is a kind of sports almost in which certain group who live in britain actually, you know what to deny their british sis or don't want to be associated with, bring or feel that you know, born and bread here. And yet they are they are not really kind of feel that they're part of IT know.

And so some of the practices we have to be direct about so you can't be running kind of situations where in some muslim communities, women are home, not through choice, they want to work. And it's so only in the men are doing all of work know I say work, I mean, not saying that working at home is and work, but they may want to do something else. But there's clearly a sexism going on in that and not to call IT out.

And and that's that's part of an integration issue, you know so I do think there's questions that the society can ask of a community that will help IT be part of the national the national agenda without IT actually haven't to compromise anything on its on the way you know its religion works. IT might have to do that, but in some ways, but it's not going to it's not it's going to dengate that. It's not gonna something that's gonna be awful, but you have to change in the society you're in, you know.

And I think there's I think we can be as polite as we were in the past. I do think reform, i've gone another way in a sense of saying that there are groups that, uh, you know, a kind of A, I think what he does IT then can stir up kind of racial divisions when they were not there in the first, but you say, in paid in in in bedroom. But I do think that we should be asking community leaders if they are, whatever they please give me.

Some of these people are just self appointed people who come up. You don't even know who they are. So so the government, i've got to find a way, I think of saying that, okay, in housing, in in, in schooling. So for example, I I do find to certain the way in which we do school in kind of problematic, where we have total hundred percent muslim schools, hundred percent White schools in similar areas. I am not going for american busing system, but that's evolved sometimes three local education authorities allowing that to happen, you know? And I think that what we should be asking some of those schools is, you know, what about having more schools are mixed and actually that's that's a Better way of doing education.

Yeah, it's interesting because we have almost come back full circle and IT feels like we're coming back to the point of identity and and the identity around britishness that if we if we want to have communities to integrate, that's an no idea that we can integrate around, which is identity again.

Yeah, but but it's also it's also being honestly enough to see that there are activists in those communities who don't want that, of course, and unable to mobilize against that.

Yeah and also there's a this was so a confidence as a security thing sees that I can stay in one community and not even leave IT and just be locked into IT actually happens in one community as well, you know just looked into one kind of experience and not really have anything else to do with another. And I think that without as as I getting into any social engineering, I think that the way in which we do primary schools, eeta should be different. And we have we fun. This institutions should be different. For example, we should encourage institutions and schools that are a the will go for a more mixed environment to say that you look you, this is the place that's gona get resources yeah.

It's interesting how a lot you always bring about to education. I mean, obviously because background and I think I think I sleep interested and and yeah I I am always looking in education. But for me I just come back to the point, I still think that some of the skills were not teaching now that kids need why i'm trying to do with my kids at home. But but yeah, I just find an interest in coming back to them, by the way, figure education you like that. I take my kids out to jamaica.

couple once OK great. Well, they enjoy.

they love out arteries.

And actually I live. I have a place in a place just round the corner from there, in a place, got a rocker ba, which is actually a few miles from golden. I were in flaming rock, the bond novels.

Yeah, we in china had a week there. We had an amazing in time .

to make an interesting country. And this might be for another podcast and i'm actually writing A A book and doing stroker film and and what is cool is is highly conditional, sal, but I love IT. I think you'll be great. It's called britain the first thing, the making of the jamaican mind. And you can guess where that's going.

It's sort of an antti dote to reparations and to all the the anti colonial stuff in a way and it's actually identifies jamaicans actually being almost like um you know a gold fish in the water of of of british ess. And that's that's really where is strong. And so that would be loved by the guardian.

Well, we had a great time there. Food was the food. Oh my god, the food. Now we had a great time because you .

did you going next? K, yeah, for the Christmas series.

Well, listen, it's been great to meet you and great to taught you. Fascinating chat, and I educ important. I kein more interest education. I hate if we can flip that with more education. I think before a brother, you appreciate, you take you.